The answer? Pilum. If they block it with their shield, they can no longer use their shield effectively. if it hits their armor, they can no longer move effectively. if it hits their body, they can no longer live effectively.
Schwarzer Ritter The same reason why people forgot about sewage systems. The Legion was a professional standing army, and you didn't have anything like that for a *long* time after the collapse of Rome.
Schwarzer Ritter Not quite. Weapon technology had not surpassed the Romans until the 1500s. Only metallurgy, and only by a small margin. The Roman Empire used Legions, a Legion was 4,800 disciplined professional combat infantry. All with standardized equipment, excellent training, and fantastic benefits. What would a Medieval army look like? barely organized peasants led by a few Nobles wealthy enough to afford armor. When the Roman Empire began to fall, the standard of military competency also devolved.
Sigurd Fjeld Halvorsen That moment when you've finally managed to crank out your first Modern Armor and it gets destroyed by a couple of guys with wooden clubs...
You must also remember that Skall is nowhere near a skilled spearman/javellin thrower (i'm not saying he's bad). I bet a well-trained man could penetrate that armor even with the smaller javellin.
***** I would hope that it was zoomed in a lot and that the camera wasn't actually as close as it appeared, lol. That said I think the test was fair enough. And, shows the through you did to be a valid tactic.
***** I think many people forgot the fact thrown spears are used to hunt animals with significantly tougher skin, their skin is so tough in fact, we make armor from it! (Ofc it's treated before it's used that way I know :P It's just the level of skepticism in the comments on the sparring video mostly seemed to ignore that a thrown spear is a tried and tested lethal weapon against man and beast alike.)
if it doesnt work you dont wear it. even light leather jacket is an un-needed hindurance when your life is on the line. don't take this to mean katana can't cut trough samurai armor ofc. That would be too logically consistent thinking
HCN 27.0253g/mol No. Against a war bow of antiquity which could have a draw weight of anywhere from 70lbs to well over a hundred, the padding won't do much to stop an arrow if you're hit.
Yep. It's why they use a layer of denim in firearms ballistics tests too. People underestimate how tough a few layers of fabric can be. Not bullet proof or blade proof, but a few inches less of penetration can mean the difference between a perforated pectoral and a bisected aorta.
A professional javelin or spear fighter would also have been trained and conditioned to throw a spear with greater effect. Also, in your duel the spear wouldn't have to be fatal or even inflict crippling damage, it would have still been enough to create an opening.
My thoughts exactly, were he a trained Roman Javelin, for instance, I think he would do a nasty damage to that gibbon, otherwise the style wouldn't be used as extensively throughout the whole Antiquity as history seems to pronounce.
Lucca Cecin One reason spears were so wide spread is simply because the metallurgy required was a lot less expensive and demanding as a sword or other weapons. My money says they were much better with them than you see in the movies.
Knowing that spear throwing is an Olympic sport implies that the throwing power is something that can be trained to a greater degree. I think we need a way to compare what a soldier would really be capable of. It would really help if Skall were to get an Olympic javelin and then we have some numbers
Marc Ritz That would be interesting. In China spears were used as slashing weapons. Given the designs of some of the Greek and Roman spears it seems they could have been using them the same way.
Dear ***** - Seeing as you said you're going to focus more on polearms and spears in the beginning of the video, can I make a suggestion. The Ancient Greeks had a method of increasing the distance and accuracy of their javelins through the use of a piece of leather attached to the shaft, called an 'amentum', which they would use to throw their spears in the same manner as a trebuchet. Would you consider trying one out to see, compared to throwing the javelin unaided or compared to using an 'atlatl', how much more powerfully, accurately and/or further the throws would be? As always, thanks for the great video, particularly one about javelins. :)
There's a video out there of this British historian, forget his name but he's done a number of TV specials, where he had a group of people using atlatls throw stone tipped spears at a replica breastplate to see what would happen. The idea was to replicate the sort of scenario Spanish conquisatdors would have encountered and see what the spears would have done. While none of them penetrated (or at least to the point of being lethal) some of them did put some nice little dings in the breastplate, a lot more damage than I would have thought.
So that when it gets stuck in the armour and they pull it out and try to throw it back at you, the spearhead will still be stuck in them and they'll be throwing back a harmless piece of wood! I see someone's been reading the Sagas... ;)
Demonflesh spawn No, that's a reference to an earlier video where Skall found a reference to a technique in a fighting manual which stated you should unscrew the pommel of your sword and throw it at them as a surprise.
deklor Well I suppose, Yes. I've never heard someone measure that kind of thing in Inches or feet as they tend to be far too small. Same as you wouldn't use Metres or Centimeters. Too big of measurements. Americans actually use a mix of Metric and Imperial,
***** Or, he could any any of these: "Monotheism characterizes the traditions of Bábism, the Bahá'í Faith, Cao Dai (Caodaiism), Cheondoism (Cheondogyo), Christianity, Deism, Eckankar, Islam, Judaism, Mandaeism, Rastafari, Ravidassia religion, Seicho no Ie, Shaivism, Shaktism, Sikhism, Tengrism (Tangrism), Tenrikyo (Tenriism), Vaishnavism, and Zoroastrianism"
This is Thrand! Great testing Skallagrim and matches all our findings of gambesons and even on spear throwing test. It has a lot to do with the mass of the spear to how much penetration you get through armour thrown or hand held if accelerated properly. Great stuff!
I already expect people to complain that you did not throw *exactly* the same way as you did in the sparring video ;) I see this more as a proof of concept, with the right throw and spear you can seriously damage an opponent even if they're wearing padded armor. If your sparring spear with its size and mass combined with the throw you did back then actually would have done that is simply not possible to say. That's the thing with sparring, you can only assume.
in the sparring he used a spear that looked similar to the javelin.. although he couldnt really have used a much heavier spear, as that would have been too dangerous for sparring.
The argument against that would be that Skall was sparring so even with a sparring spear he wouldn't have thrown it as hard as he could in order to avoid hurintg his opponent just like he would with a sparring sword. Just because they're training weapons doesn't mean that you can't hurt someone if you took a swipe at them as hard as you would with a real weapon.
True, it's a nice vid as always, but I don't think you'd have the ability to put that much power and preparation into your throw in the midst of an actual fight. I doubt very much you'd be able to have that kind of penetration-power with a throw like the one from the training clip.
Loving your spear throwing technique! Also cool to see padded armor tested, though with we could have seen linen or wool rather than the less period armor burlap.
The clip at the end, of you throwing toward the camera, made the spears look very cool, flying along the way. good throws. the javalin was a nice first throw, long range fast, and then you went down the line. loved it.
Dear Skallagrim, I hope you or maybe another viewer may answer me. I just come back from the history museum of Bern, and I saw lots of Celtic spear heads from the Bronze Age. A few of them had the same fixation system as a knife : a simple tang, with two holes in it. As a metal worker (I'm a goldsmith) I would like to know why such a simple and easy to make system disappeared and was replaced by the "cone" system that we can see on your Viking spear. My guess would be that it had a tendency to split the shaft. Could anyone answer me? Besides, I am very curious about spears, and kind of surprised that you didn't make a video focused on it. How is it made? What kinds of spears existed through history? What are the interesting techniques and curious facts about it! Cheers from Switzerland (from a French jeweller :P), keep being funny and instructive!
+Zaarlath Split shaft? Maybe. But also think about this: how easy is it to drill a hole into a shaft and properly measure it? Not very. One more thing to think about: what is keeping the head in the shaft? Only a (hopefully) tight fit? I'd rather have a rivet.
Zaarlath This just speculation but it might be b/c an opponent could potentially damage the joint between shaft and head while parrying. Undoubtedly the main reason is probably related to the fact that a tight fitted cone with an extra nail to hold it on is easier to mass produce.
The view from the camera while you throw in the direction Close to it is quite scary. I am impressed by the lengths you go to show how things might have worked out. Keep up your good work. Thumbs up.
Well... I guess throwing javelins isn't as easy as one would think. And yes while I do think he could've been better with the javelins, he was actually good with the hand-and-a-half swords and stuff when chopping those polearm shafts!
It's great to see tests like these. Cudos for taking the time and effort to actually back your words with some evidence. That said, I'm not entirely convinced that your target is as strong as a gambeson would be. 20 or 30 layers of reasonable quality linen cloth should be quite resistant to missiles like arrows and javelins.
i would suggest adding a short run-up to each throw, like an Olympic javelin thrower, but that is not what your testing. you where not running when you threw it in the sparring video, it would be interesting to see how much said run-up would add to the power/penetration of the throw
You can probably get about 80% by just stepping/leaning into the throw.. Gotta remember that in the olympics its all about the last centimeter. BTW Olympic Javelins weigh atleast twice as much as Skalla's javelin and are quite capable of fatally wounding the unarmoured..
when i was in school (couple years back) i could get around 20-25 m out of a full(but hollow) aluminium spear,these trows look nothing like that range but then again,he is wearing gloves and he is in uneven ground so a run up would be hard.
I thought of that too. The ancient peltasts would charge, throw, and wheel off, all in a group - then repeat the process. They usually had at least 5 javelins, thrown at a run, and in volley. It was a sort of Parthian shot, but on foot. Skalla seems to be referring to an impulsive shot, based on a sudden opening, in a duel setting. Javelins strike me as best used in volleys. The Roman pilum was used in a volley, certainly.
Damn this was a very nice video, the editing, video quality, audio , how you made a separate shots for some things and dubbed them over, really great quality content Skall!
Really loving the past few videos about weaponry, less commonly focused on. In that, I mean that movies and games mostly portray the sword as the ultimate weapon. A protagonist is most of the times seen with one, and in games they allways tend to have the best stats overall. Which made me wonder about all those other inventions. The spear, crossbow and javelins. Axes, warhammers and maces. Anyways, wanted to say thanks Skalla. For giving your view and insights on these less common portrayed armaments. It definately helps me paint a better image of things. If I ever find the energy to continue my book, at least I'll know a bit more what to write about. ;) Awesome work as allways Skall.
***** Right I understand that and I agree. But as we can see in the video it barely does a fleshwound on an armored opponet, so thats why I am asking what was its use.
sitrilko You also have to remember...these things were usually thrown en mass. You get a rain of these things and they're bound to find sweet spots where there's a gap in armor of just generally thin.
Im amazed. I honestly expected the spear and long bladed spear (partizan?) wouldnt do anything since their weight would lower their speed, and the size and mass of the blade wouldnt matter, and in fact thought the thin javelin would perform the best, and yet there stands the grass! Some of those stabs were brutal and definitely woulda killed an opponent. Awesome vid Skall.
It's funny how many people are saying "but a classically trained spearman from ancient Rome would be far more adept at throwing spears!" as if you claimed to be some expert spear slinger. I thought this was pretty conclusive in that your spear throw during the spar would have at least been a disabling wound.
CraigNW Yep, it's pretty amusing indeed. :) Of course a well trained spearman would do better, and that just goes to show how effective such a quick throw really is.
think one thing to remember is that hes throwing against a non moving target and by that i mean that since its up against the tree, the tree wont move back when the spear hits in the first layer of armor, while a person in the same situation might move back with the hit. either way its a good test for the general penetration power of a thrown spear.
Its hard to appreciate how much power a throw has, I noticed this a long while back with a tomahawk. A fair throw would sink in much deeper into seasoned oak than even a very hard swing. Good test! even though the little javelin didnt do much damage its still really neat
There is one flaw: most humans would'nt lean against a tree in combat, so the impulse would'nt get reflected. That is probaply just a minor factor, though.
Kahuna b Minor indeed. A hit to the torso would meet a lot of resistance and inertia because of the body weight. And the target could still move to an extent, as you saw when it came rolling down in a few instances.
***** You do know that there are dummies made to be as resilient as a human body, right? I mean ofc you wouldnt want to waste money on one for every test you do but it would be much better to use one of those because they are measured and tested and all that jazz to be like a human body. (I am sure you are aware of this due to your explicit knowledge of weaponry and whatnot)
***** oh no no... not those. I have seen videos in the past where they are made of a fleshy muscly material with solid supports where a bone would be. I have only seen them like 4 or 5 times though. It did seem like a basic weapon training thing...
when they layered the linen cloth in the gambesen, they altered the direction of the grain with each layer so that they would not all tear in the same direction, adding strength to the overall garment.
Skall, where do you get the hafts for your spears? Do these all fit standard rounds found at a hardware store, or should I make my own more historically accurate one?
+Skallagrim I think videos are very helpful because I play a lot of medieval fantasy based rpgs and I think when I see something in a game a character does in combat I'm like no one would swing like that and leave them self open
+Skallagrim actually a bigger variable than mass of the javelin is the spearhead shape. Javelin has a diamond cross section and is very thick, thus having rather blunt cutting edges. Best penetration you could achieve with a thinner leaf -like spearhead which is sharpened. But sure, if the shaft was heavier or it had an additional weight, it would also penetrate deeper.
+Angry Devil Gamer Be careful if you're talking about tabletop RPGs. Always remember that you do NOT want to bog down your game session with arguments about realism or believability. Please don't be that person. I was once in a session where the game has literally STOPPED for thirty minutes while two players argued over their interpretation of how gravity would apply to a situation (this was in a space campaign). I mean, if your setting (AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, GAME SYSTEM) are supposed to effectively model historical accuracy and realism, by all means the argument becomes relevant, but you STILL should discuss those things BEFORE or AFTER the session, not DURING!
please do more chivalry I was watching through your older videos and your rambling is as entertaining as your info vids, rant vids and just your videos in general allll very entertaining but chivalry, top notch rambling
Uncaged nah, then it would have a sling for killing giants attached to it... Joerg Sprave should make a bowie knife with a slignshot attached to it and call it the david bowie.
These recent video's on cloth armor have definitely made me think higher of it than before, but all of them have been based on stab protection. A video on how good this armor is at stopping a cut would be nice.
You know, *****, I think the padding was too thick. I just think that, I don't know that, so I'm open for discussion here. Moreover, I think the "body" was too thick as well. You thrust pretty hard with the knife, at least looked like it. I believe you'd go much further into a real body, cause of... you know, lubrication. "Dry" representations of human body have too much friction to represent it accurately. Moreover, I think the leather on the gambeson is overdoing it, I don't think they were mixed up (correct me if I'm wrong here). Also, apart from it being too thick (in my opinion), a gambeson would have lots of seams running through it, could be they'd create much less resistance. But most importantly, aside from physics and all the sciency stuff, spears were in use for, well, thousands of years after all. They had to be effective against armour as basic as the gambeson or else people would use the awlpike for example. Sure, it'd be uncomfortable to run around with a stick stuck in your armour, but that's not what spears were for, javelins were and were meant to pierce into the shields, not gambesons. Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on your methods or, by any means, on your videos. I love to watch you wreck some shit up. If anything, I'm attempting to have a civil, open discussion by starting it off with a few doubts. Take that, Internet! Can you handle a comment as civil and respectful as that?!
That was part of the point, I think. People didn't think a spear throw would penetrate, in his spar video, so this is basically showing how even with a material tougher than skin and cloth, it could still be a fatal wound.
***** Yes, that's why I pointed out that a blade would actually penetrate further in case of real flesh, unless it hits a bone. And that was the point, if the spear can go through all those layers of padding and the entire target it would have most likely been lethal or at least disabling in a historical duel. Thanks for your civil feedback by the way. :)
Actually, I think that the test is flawed... You are throwing the spear front (like a dart), instead of downward (in a parabolic trajectory, like a long ranged arrow). If the lances penetrated that far in a (Improvised) gambeson and went all the way through that ballistic gel, cardboard and yoga mat, it probably had touched (or at least drawed some blood from) your opponent, even with some chain mail or some thinner plate mails. The throw movement when you do it downward instead of front, has more weight and momentum, therefore MORE destructive power. Anyway, it is a pretty demonstration of power from a lance.
+Dark Kenshi But that was the point of the video, to figure out whether a quick forward throw in a duel would work. It was based on this video, where people doubted that an attack like that could do any damage: ua-cam.com/video/XyaB6KQbksM/v-deo.html
***** Yep, I know that! But what I mean is that your throw is NOT a quick FORWARD throw, as it is a quick DOWNWARD throw, as I can see in the video... The lance is up in the air, with the tip lower than the back end of the shaft, so, it describes a short, but fast parabolic flight. If a forward (or a direct flight) does THAT much of damage, imagine what a throw EXACTLY like the one in the previous video will do? This is the point I am trying to paint... The two throws are different, if you pay really close attention... And in my opinion, the first throw (in the first video) is MUCH MORE devastating! So, do you mind if you try with the SAME throw that you did in the first video? This will prove your point to the people that actually don't believe that a spear would do that much damage to even plated armor opponents...
+Dark Kenshi Ah, I see what you mean. Apparently I read your comment too fast and misunderstood it. Honestly I don't think that the angle makes that much of a difference in this case. But I could do another spear throwing test sometime.
+Mags The Problem is, that a good Gambeson is constructed totally different. Compare 10-30 layers of densely woven fabric to 3-6 layers of cheap fabric. Or even worse you compare it just to a arming doublet, that is only stuffed to absorb force. I would recommend 10-15 Layers tight woven linen that ist sewn together an inch wide apart. gambeson_olaf_2.jpg that would do ok for a test, but i think the spear blades will win ;-) Greetings
super owned sparring move with throwing that spear! that was SICK! now thats smarts.. and those are some very impressive throwing skills with the spear you gots there bud
+Skallagrim Don't worry, I'm not easily offended. Generally speaking: I know that it's probably not very appropriate to judge a video if one hasn't even watched most of it; also I usually like watching your vidz but lately I tend to skip these rather time intensive theoretical parts because it bores me.
Good job Skall! Remember to grunt when possible. It increases strength and endurance while striking. I'm serious commenters. People don't do it just to look tough in front of others.
Heheh, I remember some prudes calling for it to be banned from womens tennis.. But they werent doing it for the hell of it. It is also taught in martial arts. Atleast you should exhale when striking...
The point was not to use the most efficient throw, the point was to show whether a quick, non-telegraphed throw like the one I did in sparring in a different video would do enough damage.
Andrew Lay Why would i be grateful for it its annoying and rude... Im not English and i just mistype there ... missing h is not a mistake its just a key not pressed ..
I remember a test on deadliest warrior were some guy who had a Lance on horseback pierced a ballistic gel torso, then he put on leather lamalar and it went in even further.
Hi Skall! I was one of those who had some observation on the throwing spear in sparring. I have not seen the video demonstrations yet (I'm looking forward to it!), But before proceeding, I would like to clarify my particular point: Unlike some other reviewers, I was not me referring to hit against an armored opponent. I was sure that his throw would certainly hurt your opponent, even unarmored, but did not appear to be powerful enough to incapacitate him. And with an opponent still able to fight back and if you have lost your weapon... I remember I got to see that his arm was a little low at the time of throwing, which may have made the movement look weaker. Ok with that, I now turn to the video. I'm looking forward to find out if I was wrong, and hope it is, because that will mean that I learned a new technique. :) I was really "dying" (quibble) of curiosity to see a throw test with a board spear. Thank you for providing us with this.
+Skallagrim As opposed to merely a lack of mass being the reason why the shortest spearhead did the least damage, I'd also take a look at the shape of it. It seems to have a wide head, which probably attributes to how much drag it catches upon penetration. The other two, based on the video appearance, seem to be thinner than the shortest spearhead. Other considerations would be the force of a spear throw either knocking a target back, off-balance or to the ground and potential tactical benefits from that. :)
I read in some book that the main purpose of the Roman pilum was not to hurt the enemy but to disable his shield, the javelin would penetrate it and the soft metal which it was made of would have bent, making it almost impossible to take it out from the hole forcing you to drop your shield and fight without it.
Good test! I'm not surprised by the results, the javelin head looks a bit thick, but the other two seem to have a finer edge, and I guess that's better at cutting into fabric, not just separate the threads. The hewing spear was great, it must have a good chopping capacity :)
first of all: now i wanna but a spearhead... and second. it would be interresting to see what different types of throwing axe do to the gambeson setup you have there.
Nice experiment, Skall! From what you have done, it looks like such a technique is certainly dangerous to the other combatant. It does not matter too much to judge if it would be a fatal wound or not, because not all techniques are meant to kill in one single hit. If it can hurt, then it's useful, and it would just depend on the wielder to judge if it is worth throwing your weapon (as long as it's not your only weapon, that is) to inflict an additional wound, which can be fatal. On a battlefield you would never use it if it's your only weapon, but on a 1 vs 1 combat it's much more tempting. It's clear to me, also, that you are not using proper techique either, because you are throwing the spears using just your arm strength, when you can use much more than that: you can use your legs, hips, shoulders, to add much more punch to the throw. Of course, it's not like you are going to be able to have a full run to do so, but just taking a step forward adds more momentum to the spear.
I think it would be very interesting to see testing of bronze age spears, specifically the yetholm spear. It has a very interesting blade shape that i think would be great to see tested.
I respect you for crediting the creator of the background soundtrack, I was actually about to comment and ask because I liked it... And I see you actually put a link. Here, have a star * Have 2 :D **
Very cool video. These ones where you test weapons like this are some of my favorites. And you seem to have a decent throw too. It can be tough to get used to the particular way a javelin needs to be thrown imo (as opposed to the arm motion used for throwing a baseball for example, which people are more used to).
wow that was a surprise. When i saw how hard it was to penetrate it with knife stabs even by putting all your strength and weigt into it, i really didn't expect the spears to do better
Skall, I think that one of the two bigger spears is usually called "partizan", wich is a long spear with a very large blade, that can also cut and not only stick in.
Great videos as always but I would recommend: 1. Hold the javelin on the point of balance if it's rather small and light (up to how you feel) and behind the point of balance if a bigger heavier one. 2. Twist your body to the side of the spear and extend your arm behind you. 3. Snap back just a little more than you did statically, start the acceleration with you arm and throwing shoulder. 4. When the javelins point of balance if beside your shoulder you start twisting your rear foot/leg in the direction of the throw. 5. Let this twist continue up your body through your hips, waist and shoulders. 6. Give the javelin an extra snap by contracting the side of your torso that i in the direction of the throw 7. Follow the javelin as far as possible without altering its path, the longer you are in contact with the spear the more power you can twist into it and when it leaves your hand it should feel like your whole body is going with it. Have a good one.
***** Another tip is: Imagine you are trying to push a button really hard that will release your rear foots toes from a bear trap further away than you can stretch :)
The one thing I would like to say about the actual javelin is that javelins would be a lot better against someone with no armor (though the actual chances of that are very slim), but I don't even think javelins were meant to be lethal. To my understanding, they would be used to drop shield, not sure if that was just Romans, or be used to hurt the enemy a bit before you got there. One thing I noticed in Rome 2 Total War was that if a soldier was hit by one javelin, he would very rarely ever die. That's why you would have a lot of people throwing javelins, because on the chance that multiple hit someone, they are very likely to die or become incapacitated.
It is obvious from your throwing form that you didn't grow up in America where almost all boys learn how to throw at an early age. But I was surprised by how effective the long bladed spear was. I imagine that if you had trained for a long time in throwing things then you would have gotten significantly more penetration out of them too. But even in the hands of someone who isn't the most proficient thrower, a thrown spear can obviously do a lot of damage. Thanks for sharing this Skallagrim. :)
Some thoughts: 1. I was very glad Skallagrim didn't cut his hand when trying to stab with the knife. Having your hand slip past the handle onto the blade is actually a fairly common injury when attempting to stab like this. 2. Spearmen came in two types. There were those who fought hand to hand. They typically had longer shafts and would thrust with the spear. These soldiers would not throw their spear, as they would then have no weapon. The other type were support troops. The javelin throwers in a Roman legion come to mind. They would throw their spears (often to lead an attack), but were not the main fighting force.
The standard used by most edged weapon users is that if a knife can penetrate 4" into a target, it can reach an artery or touch certain vital organs from certain angles (under the armpit for a lung or under the ribs to the liver). If your spear throw can penetrate 4" of tissue AFTER breaching the target's armor, you can cause an incapacitating or even lethal wound. The standard of penetration the FBI set for 10% Ballistic Gel is 12" of penetration for a minimum (with no more than 18" to prevent overpenetration by bullets). This is because 10% Gel represents muscle tissue and is not representative of other tissues in the body. Skin may account for as much as 3" of that penetration, and bone can account for between 4" and 8" of penetration. This is why the FBI settled on the 12" minimum for ballistic testing. Please note that projectile weapons (bows, javelins, atlatl's) often do not penetrate very far in Ballistic Gel but can often completely penetrate big game such as white-tailed deer in real life hunting/field conditions. This is because these weapons possess a "cutting edge" that bullets do not. I don't think we will ever create a medium that can accurately represent the real world performance of most weapons.
+Skallagrim if you're interested in having more spear related content. I'd love to see you use a woomera (or atlatl) with both traditional and steel tipped spears. These spear throwing devices effectively extend the throwing arm allowing the thrower to launch the projectile much faster and further.
Very cool, and it does show some of the advantage of the thrown spear. If you could have taken a step through with the throw, I imagine you would have seen even more penetration, though it wouldn't have been a good comparison to the sparring video then. One thing that I did think, after seeing your stabbing with the knife, would it be possible to get a similar video with more of a medieval style dagger, and maybe even rapier or small sword showing a blade designed for thrusting through certain armor? Assuming of course you have access to such at present.
That Celtic spear point (the big one), I don't think you would ever throw, except for a last ditch effort. That type of spear, along with his sword, would have been a warrior's prized possession and used as a stabbing, piercing, even slashing weapon that he wouldn't have just thrown at the enemy. Too easy to pick up and be used against you. Thus why the Romans adopted/developed the Pilum, so that it could not be returned to sender
Thanks for another great video! I noticed something that might be interesting about the impacts. The initial throws against the armor mock-up occurred when the target had considerable contact with the tree. These early throws had little penetration through the innermost layers. Afterwards, the target had much less support and there was greater penetration through the armor. This seemed independent of the technique.* Did the heavy, cardboard backing cause a change in energy transfer that could have lead to this observation? * As others have said, you threw the spear with slightly differing technique. It seemed to even out.
I'd like to see a similar video to test how far your under and overhand single handed thrusts do against the same or similar target (for consistency). At such close range, sometimes a handheld thrust might have more power than a throw. And of course its never wise to throw a weapon unless you have a backup or are prepared to grapple for their weapon. But I would like to see a fair test of handheld vs thrown at similar distance.
Nice video, it was very informative. For constructive feedback: I did miss an overarching conclusion this time in relation to the surprise throw (just for wrapping things up and in relation to the mass/type of the spear or javelin).
And here we see the Canadian, hunting it's natural prey....
...the tree
How the hell do you think we get such great maple syrup?
He's not Canadian but that made me chuckle anyway.
Yes he is.
@@qboxer not originally
Praise The Sun the hunting of maple syrup is a rite of passage for all Canadian boys who want to be acknowledged as men
The answer? Pilum. If they block it with their shield, they can no longer use their shield effectively. if it hits their armor, they can no longer move effectively. if it hits their body, they can no longer live effectively.
+Sherlock Holmes
Then why did the pilum go out of fashion?
Schwarzer Ritter The same reason why people forgot about sewage systems.
The Legion was a professional standing army, and you didn't have anything like that for a *long* time after the collapse of Rome.
Sherlock Holmes
Weapon technology soon surpassed the old Romans. If a pilum would still be a good military weapon, they would have reinvented it.
Schwarzer Ritter Not quite. Weapon technology had not surpassed the Romans until the 1500s. Only metallurgy, and only by a small margin. The Roman Empire used Legions, a Legion was 4,800 disciplined professional combat infantry. All with standardized equipment, excellent training, and fantastic benefits.
What would a Medieval army look like? barely organized peasants led by a few Nobles wealthy enough to afford armor.
When the Roman Empire began to fall, the standard of military competency also devolved.
+Sherlock Holmes No shit Sherlock.
That's seriously impressive. I didn't expect the spears to penetrate anywhere near that far. Spearmen are not to be trifled with, evidently.
No soldier is to be trifled with. Weapons are a serious advantage, if used correctly. (No political belief involved)
If you're not careful they'll take out your tank, even! [/Civilization]
Sigurd Fjeld Halvorsen That moment when you've finally managed to crank out your first Modern Armor and it gets destroyed by a couple of guys with wooden clubs...
Spearmen are terrifying if they fight well with a group. 12 years of boffer fighting taught me to kill the polearm first if you can.
You must also remember that Skall is nowhere near a skilled spearman/javellin thrower (i'm not saying he's bad). I bet a well-trained man could penetrate that armor even with the smaller javellin.
I was convinced that the ending clip with the spears hitting the tree was building up to end with Skall missing and hitting the camera instead...
Holy Rhino Nope, that part was just for fun. :)
I saw one of the blades hit the other and create a spark for a frame or two. It was pretty cool! :P
***** you'd make a great peltast
***** I would hope that it was zoomed in a lot and that the camera wasn't actually as close as it appeared, lol. That said I think the test was fair enough. And, shows the through you did to be a valid tactic.
*****
I think many people forgot the fact thrown spears are used to hunt animals with significantly tougher skin, their skin is so tough in fact, we make armor from it!
(Ofc it's treated before it's used that way I know :P It's just the level of skepticism in the comments on the sparring video mostly seemed to ignore that a thrown spear is a tried and tested lethal weapon against man and beast alike.)
Note to self: If a war breaks out, find 8 potato sacks (Burlap) and cut arm and leg holes
And it works against guns too. The people holding them would be too perplexed to shoot you right away, giving you chance to escape.
So you'd look like a moron and the enemy soldiers didn't shoot you out of pity?
Jefrejtor Emergency strategy: When you see people with guns, scream "THE END IS NEAR!!!! THE LORD TOLD ME!!!!" as loud as you can.
Isn't it better to run around naked, so you're more manoeuvrable and harder to hit with firearms, because nobody wants to look at your shlong?
Sir Dikcelot Brace yourself, winter is coming.
This was a real eye opener on padded armor. It actually protects THAT much?! Cool. Guess that's the reason they wore it. I really didn't know that.
OmnYfie Well, they wouldn't wear it if it didn't help at all.
if it doesnt work you dont wear it. even light leather jacket is an un-needed hindurance when your life is on the line. don't take this to mean katana can't cut trough samurai armor ofc. That would be too logically consistent thinking
But does it work against missiles (Arrows n shit, not huge powered Missiles)?
HCN 27.0253g/mol No. Against a war bow of antiquity which could have a draw weight of anywhere from 70lbs to well over a hundred, the padding won't do much to stop an arrow if you're hit.
Yep. It's why they use a layer of denim in firearms ballistics tests too. People underestimate how tough a few layers of fabric can be. Not bullet proof or blade proof, but a few inches less of penetration can mean the difference between a perforated pectoral and a bisected aorta.
A professional javelin or spear fighter would also have been trained and conditioned to throw a spear with greater effect. Also, in your duel the spear wouldn't have to be fatal or even inflict crippling damage, it would have still been enough to create an opening.
My thoughts exactly, were he a trained Roman Javelin, for instance, I think he would do a nasty damage to that gibbon, otherwise the style wouldn't be used as extensively throughout the whole Antiquity as history seems to pronounce.
Lucca Cecin One reason spears were so wide spread is simply because the metallurgy required was a lot less expensive and demanding as a sword or other weapons. My money says they were much better with them than you see in the movies.
Knowing that spear throwing is an Olympic sport implies that the throwing power is something that can be trained to a greater degree. I think we need a way to compare what a soldier would really be capable of. It would really help if Skall were to get an Olympic javelin and then we have some numbers
Marc Ritz That would be interesting. In China spears were used as slashing weapons. Given the designs of some of the Greek and Roman spears it seems they could have been using them the same way.
Deep Ashtray Absolutely. A stronger person with lots of training in spear or javelin throwing would have done quite a bit better.
Skallagrim should be made into a Skyrim NPC
Well it's been an hour, I expect a skallagrim mod exists by now.
Luke Bryant He would have his own forge, and would point out how impractical the weapon you made is each time you use it.
AncientBlitzkrieg And he should be a invincible npc that attacks anyone with daedric armor. Why you might ask? Well..
BECAUSE OF FUCKING SPIKES!!
www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/75735/?
Skallagrim, the Master of Arms.
Dear ***** - Seeing as you said you're going to focus more on polearms and spears in the beginning of the video, can I make a suggestion.
The Ancient Greeks had a method of increasing the distance and accuracy of their javelins through the use of a piece of leather attached to the shaft, called an 'amentum', which they would use to throw their spears in the same manner as a trebuchet.
Would you consider trying one out to see, compared to throwing the javelin unaided or compared to using an 'atlatl', how much more powerfully, accurately and/or further the throws would be?
As always, thanks for the great video, particularly one about javelins. :)
Aah I didnt know that, it works almost like a spear-thrower.
There's a video out there of this British historian, forget his name but he's done a number of TV specials, where he had a group of people using atlatls throw stone tipped spears at a replica breastplate to see what would happen. The idea was to replicate the sort of scenario Spanish conquisatdors would have encountered and see what the spears would have done. While none of them penetrated (or at least to the point of being lethal) some of them did put some nice little dings in the breastplate, a lot more damage than I would have thought.
Hmm, a javelin sling would be interesting indeed :)
This technique was used by the American Indians as well, but rather then leather they used a shaped piece of wood.
I would love to see him using an atlatl...
Against armour, unscrew the pommel and throw it at him!
If the manuals say so!
So that when it gets stuck in the armour and they pull it out and try to throw it back at you, the spearhead will still be stuck in them and they'll be throwing back a harmless piece of wood!
I see someone's been reading the Sagas... ;)
Demonflesh spawn
No, that's a reference to an earlier video where Skall found a reference to a technique in a fighting manual which stated you should unscrew the pommel of your sword and throw it at them as a surprise.
Wouldn't work if he had a Katana
;)
Rollo Red But that's cheating, the Katana beats every weapon and technique.
45mm or as Americans would say: 2.79617*10^-5 miles
No. An American would say "45mm".
Americans use millimeters below the inch.
+Ac1dM0nk3y You mean like firearm calibers?
deklor Well I suppose, Yes. I've never heard someone measure that kind of thing in Inches or feet as they tend to be far too small. Same as you wouldn't use Metres or Centimeters. Too big of measurements.
Americans actually use a mix of Metric and Imperial,
+Ac1dM0nk3y Well, all firearm calibers below 12.7mm are measured in inches
deklor I don't know much about that kind of thing to be entirely honest, but I've never heard someone measure a caliber with imperial.
Hey Skall, Can you verify that we Canadians use spears like this to hunt maple syrup from the elusive maple tree every morning?
Wizz Wizz Yes. True story, bro.
Holy shit! Did you see that at 11:13? The spear's metallic nose hit the one already enbedded in the tree and produced a small spark!
+MadEngineer oh wow, didn't notice that.
+MadEngineer oh my blessed god IT'S GORGEOUS!
***** I don't believe in polytheism, So God; Not Gods. Sorry.
*****
Or, he could any any of these:
"Monotheism characterizes the traditions of Bábism, the Bahá'í Faith, Cao Dai (Caodaiism), Cheondoism (Cheondogyo), Christianity, Deism, Eckankar, Islam, Judaism, Mandaeism, Rastafari, Ravidassia religion, Seicho no Ie, Shaivism, Shaktism, Sikhism, Tengrism (Tangrism), Tenrikyo (Tenriism), Vaishnavism, and Zoroastrianism"
+Aw3someSauce Don't disrespect his/her beliefs. Let them believe what they believe and you do your thing.
This is Thrand! Great testing Skallagrim and matches all our findings of gambesons and even on spear throwing test. It has a lot to do with the mass of the spear to how much penetration you get through armour thrown or hand held if accelerated properly. Great stuff!
he is very good at throwing spears/knives btw. he just channels his inner norwegian chad viking into perfect throw
I already expect people to complain that you did not throw *exactly* the same way as you did in the sparring video ;)
I see this more as a proof of concept, with the right throw and spear you can seriously damage an opponent even if they're wearing padded armor.
If your sparring spear with its size and mass combined with the throw you did back then actually would have done that is simply not possible to say. That's the thing with sparring, you can only assume.
in the sparring he used a spear that looked similar to the javelin.. although he couldnt really have used a much heavier spear, as that would have been too dangerous for sparring.
The argument against that would be that Skall was sparring so even with a sparring spear he wouldn't have thrown it as hard as he could in order to avoid hurintg his opponent just like he would with a sparring sword. Just because they're training weapons doesn't mean that you can't hurt someone if you took a swipe at them as hard as you would with a real weapon.
***** Of course. I don't actually want to injure my training partner, you know.
*****
:p really your nutcracker incident would make people think you was (I'm just teasing mate)
True, it's a nice vid as always, but I don't think you'd have the ability to put that much power and preparation into your throw in the midst of an actual fight.
I doubt very much you'd be able to have that kind of penetration-power with a throw like the one from the training clip.
nice to see that you found something from my music to use. :)
feel free to use anything i upload there if you want Skall .
and keep up the good videos
Wolfgang Fenrir Thanks for letting me use it. :)
no problem.
use any of them as you wish.
it's the lest i can do since you give us so much great content .
6:15 thats what my gf said to me :,(
+Nexecute [Ben] My good sir, the internet is yours.
You JUST zeroed it!
hahahahahahhahahahahahaha
Best comment so far!
Nobody Nothing C'mon, really a girlfriend, dont bs yourself m8
THANK YOU SO MUCH for the 60fps video! It looks just so much better.
Skall, did you ever experiment with a Roman *pilum*? Just asking.
Loving your spear throwing technique! Also cool to see padded armor tested, though with we could have seen linen or wool rather than the less period armor burlap.
this test looks like it was a lot of fun to do
The clip at the end, of you throwing toward the camera, made the spears look very cool, flying along the way. good throws. the javalin was a nice first throw, long range fast, and then you went down the line. loved it.
Dear Skallagrim, I hope you or maybe another viewer may answer me. I just come back from the history museum of Bern, and I saw lots of Celtic spear heads from the Bronze Age. A few of them had the same fixation system as a knife : a simple tang, with two holes in it. As a metal worker (I'm a goldsmith) I would like to know why such a simple and easy to make system disappeared and was replaced by the "cone" system that we can see on your Viking spear. My guess would be that it had a tendency to split the shaft. Could anyone answer me?
Besides, I am very curious about spears, and kind of surprised that you didn't make a video focused on it. How is it made? What kinds of spears existed through history? What are the interesting techniques and curious facts about it!
Cheers from Switzerland (from a French jeweller :P), keep being funny and instructive!
+Zaarlath My guess would be that it would indeed eventually split the shaft with repeated heavy use.
+Zaarlath Split shaft? Maybe. But also think about this: how easy is it to drill a hole into a shaft and properly measure it? Not very. One more thing to think about: what is keeping the head in the shaft? Only a (hopefully) tight fit? I'd rather have a rivet.
Zaarlath This just speculation but it might be b/c an opponent could potentially damage the joint between shaft and head while parrying. Undoubtedly the main reason is probably related to the fact that a tight fitted cone with an extra nail to hold it on is easier to mass produce.
The view from the camera while you throw in the direction Close to it is quite scary. I am impressed by the lengths you go to show how things might have worked out. Keep up your good work. Thumbs up.
Javelin archer scrub.
I jest, of course. I play too much Chivalry.
Well... I guess throwing javelins isn't as easy as one would think. And yes while I do think he could've been better with the javelins, he was actually good with the hand-and-a-half swords and stuff when chopping those polearm shafts!
RegaRayRocks ok
Awesome video, please do more on spears! I would like to see some different types of spear heads and maybe some more basics on fighting using a spear.
Just imagine if these spears had pommels...
then you could end them rightly
Lennart Vis Just hold it backwards. Then you have a staff with a very sharp pommel
Creature Plays Games Arguably the best weapon for ending him rightly!
Lennart Vis oof
It's great to see tests like these. Cudos for taking the time and effort to actually back your words with some evidence. That said, I'm not entirely convinced that your target is as strong as a gambeson would be. 20 or 30 layers of reasonable quality linen cloth should be quite resistant to missiles like arrows and javelins.
not enough to save Oberyn's head...
I appreciate you linking all the items in the description
i would suggest adding a short run-up to each throw, like an Olympic javelin thrower, but that is not what your testing. you where not running when you threw it in the sparring video, it would be interesting to see how much said run-up would add to the power/penetration of the throw
You can probably get about 80% by just stepping/leaning into the throw.. Gotta remember that in the olympics its all about the last centimeter. BTW Olympic Javelins weigh atleast twice as much as Skalla's javelin and are quite capable of fatally wounding the unarmoured..
well i think this was to mostly clear up his previous video, and he had no run up on that one,
when i was in school (couple years back) i could get around 20-25 m out of a full(but hollow) aluminium spear,these trows look nothing like that range but then again,he is wearing gloves and he is in uneven ground so a run up would be hard.
I thought of that too. The ancient peltasts would charge, throw, and wheel off, all in a group - then repeat the process. They usually had at least 5 javelins, thrown at a run, and in volley. It was a sort of Parthian shot, but on foot. Skalla seems to be referring to an impulsive shot, based on a sudden opening, in a duel setting. Javelins strike me as best used in volleys. The Roman pilum was used in a volley, certainly.
***** Depends. The republican legionary often carried 2 pila: one light and one heavy, to be thrown at different distances from the target.
Damn this was a very nice video, the editing, video quality, audio , how you made a separate shots for some things and dubbed them over, really great quality content Skall!
60 fps looks amazing!!! Imagine if you'd hit your camera at the end LOL
This man speaks English better than many natives. V interesting video too thanks!
So, it would take a very long time to take a tree down by throwing spears at it.
Really loving the past few videos about weaponry, less commonly focused on.
In that, I mean that movies and games mostly portray the sword as the ultimate weapon.
A protagonist is most of the times seen with one, and in games they allways tend to have the best stats overall.
Which made me wonder about all those other inventions.
The spear, crossbow and javelins. Axes, warhammers and maces.
Anyways, wanted to say thanks Skalla.
For giving your view and insights on these less common portrayed armaments.
It definately helps me paint a better image of things.
If I ever find the energy to continue my book, at least I'll know a bit more what to write about. ;)
Awesome work as allways Skall.
The javelline doesnt do much. What is its purpose? Hunting?
Maybe an atlatl (spear/javelline thrower) could be another thing to test and compare!
They aren't just for killing. Injuring the enemy can be effective, as well as just breaking formation and scaring them.
Try coating it in feces and urine, and small wound can be deadly
You could carry a bunch of them besides your main weapon, for example.
*****
Right I understand that and I agree. But as we can see in the video it barely does a fleshwound on an armored opponet, so thats why I am asking what was its use.
sitrilko You also have to remember...these things were usually thrown en mass. You get a rain of these things and they're bound to find sweet spots where there's a gap in armor of just generally thin.
Im amazed. I honestly expected the spear and long bladed spear (partizan?) wouldnt do anything since their weight would lower their speed, and the size and mass of the blade wouldnt matter, and in fact thought the thin javelin would perform the best, and yet there stands the grass! Some of those stabs were brutal and definitely woulda killed an opponent. Awesome vid Skall.
It's funny how many people are saying "but a classically trained spearman from ancient Rome would be far more adept at throwing spears!" as if you claimed to be some expert spear slinger. I thought this was pretty conclusive in that your spear throw during the spar would have at least been a disabling wound.
CraigNW Yep, it's pretty amusing indeed. :) Of course a well trained spearman would do better, and that just goes to show how effective such a quick throw really is.
I have waited so long for an actual spear throwing video :D
Thanks a lot, love your content! :)
spears confirmed for best weapon ever created.
This looks so very cathartic. I'm a little more relaxed just watching this, even.
This's but a fleshwound!
think one thing to remember is that hes throwing against a non moving target and by that i mean that since its up against the tree, the tree wont move back when the spear hits in the first layer of armor, while a person in the same situation might move back with the hit. either way its a good test for the general penetration power of a thrown spear.
This video was absolute gold...
And white
how about 3 years and 6 months late? but anyway it is definitely gold and white.
how about 5 years late?
@@pasatebo I don't even remember having made this comment haha. But I'm glad people are still seeing it, all this time later
that shot of the incoming spears landing right next to the camera was awesome
So to sum up - if your spear is sufficiently manly, you have a good chance of doing some damage.
Its hard to appreciate how much power a throw has, I noticed this a long while back with a tomahawk. A fair throw would sink in much deeper into seasoned oak than even a very hard swing.
Good test! even though the little javelin didnt do much damage its still really neat
There is one flaw: most humans would'nt lean against a tree in combat, so the impulse would'nt get reflected. That is probaply just a minor factor, though.
Kahuna b Minor indeed. A hit to the torso would meet a lot of resistance and inertia because of the body weight. And the target could still move to an extent, as you saw when it came rolling down in a few instances.
***** You do know that there are dummies made to be as resilient as a human body, right? I mean ofc you wouldnt want to waste money on one for every test you do but it would be much better to use one of those because they are measured and tested and all that jazz to be like a human body. (I am sure you are aware of this due to your explicit knowledge of weaponry and whatnot)
ryan hawk
If you mean crash test dummies, those are for blunt impact only and would be useless for testing blades.
***** oh no no... not those. I have seen videos in the past where they are made of a fleshy muscly material with solid supports where a bone would be. I have only seen them like 4 or 5 times though. It did seem like a basic weapon training thing...
ryan hawk
Hm, it would be interesting to know what those are.
when they layered the linen cloth in the gambesen, they altered the direction of the grain with each layer so that they would not all tear in the same direction, adding strength to the overall garment.
Skall, where do you get the hafts for your spears? Do these all fit standard rounds found at a hardware store, or should I make my own more historically accurate one?
+TheGrammargestapo1
I got them here (under Staff Weapons at the bottom): www.woodenswords.com/?Click=1799
+Skallagrim I think videos are very helpful because I play a lot of medieval fantasy based rpgs and I think when I see something in a game a character does in combat I'm like no one would swing like that and leave them self open
+Skallagrim actually a bigger variable than mass of the javelin is the spearhead shape. Javelin has a diamond cross section and is very thick, thus having rather blunt cutting edges. Best penetration you could achieve with a thinner leaf -like spearhead which is sharpened. But sure, if the shaft was heavier or it had an additional weight, it would also penetrate deeper.
+Angry Devil Gamer Be careful if you're talking about tabletop RPGs. Always remember that you do NOT want to bog down your game session with arguments about realism or believability. Please don't be that person. I was once in a session where the game has literally STOPPED for thirty minutes while two players argued over their interpretation of how gravity would apply to a situation (this was in a space campaign).
I mean, if your setting (AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, GAME SYSTEM) are supposed to effectively model historical accuracy and realism, by all means the argument becomes relevant, but you STILL should discuss those things BEFORE or AFTER the session, not DURING!
i see what your saying games that have some realistic mechanics like sniper elite has gravity, wind and other bullet ballistics
please do more chivalry I was watching through your older videos and your rambling is as entertaining as your info vids, rant vids and just your videos in general allll very entertaining but chivalry, top notch rambling
Spears master race!
I always love these videos. I really appreciate the time and effort you put in to testing weapons and concepts. You need a show on TLC. :P
What kind of bowie is that?
Our Rasper Bowie ,)
Sharp Blades
Very nice! I remember you saying they'd be on here.
A David Bowie
Uncaged nah, then it would have a sling for killing giants attached to it... Joerg Sprave should make a bowie knife with a slignshot attached to it and call it the david bowie.
These recent video's on cloth armor have definitely made me think higher of it than before, but all of them have been based on stab protection. A video on how good this armor is at stopping a cut would be nice.
Yea.. but what if the enemy is wearing a full body super-kevlar depleted uranium titanium armor?! CHECKMATE ATHEISTS!
Dang he's got us there!
You just knock his ass down because that armor would way a ton and once he's down you aim for the gaps. :)
Then you don't bring a spear to the fight, or poke him in the gaps.
Or just laugh at him.
You unscrew your pomel and how it at him, that'll end him rightly
Typical ignorant westerner, EVERYONE knows that the katana could cut through that armour in the same strike it was drawn! /s
Huge supporter of your opening statement about needing more spears...Hel, polearms in general!..
You know, *****, I think the padding was too thick. I just think that, I don't know that, so I'm open for discussion here. Moreover, I think the "body" was too thick as well. You thrust pretty hard with the knife, at least looked like it. I believe you'd go much further into a real body, cause of... you know, lubrication. "Dry" representations of human body have too much friction to represent it accurately. Moreover, I think the leather on the gambeson is overdoing it, I don't think they were mixed up (correct me if I'm wrong here). Also, apart from it being too thick (in my opinion), a gambeson would have lots of seams running through it, could be they'd create much less resistance. But most importantly, aside from physics and all the sciency stuff, spears were in use for, well, thousands of years after all. They had to be effective against armour as basic as the gambeson or else people would use the awlpike for example. Sure, it'd be uncomfortable to run around with a stick stuck in your armour, but that's not what spears were for, javelins were and were meant to pierce into the shields, not gambesons. Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on your methods or, by any means, on your videos. I love to watch you wreck some shit up. If anything, I'm attempting to have a civil, open discussion by starting it off with a few doubts. Take that, Internet! Can you handle a comment as civil and respectful as that?!
That was part of the point, I think. People didn't think a spear throw would penetrate, in his spar video, so this is basically showing how even with a material tougher than skin and cloth, it could still be a fatal wound.
***** Yes, that's why I pointed out that a blade would actually penetrate further in case of real flesh, unless it hits a bone. And that was the point, if the spear can go through all those layers of padding and the entire target it would have most likely been lethal or at least disabling in a historical duel. Thanks for your civil feedback by the way. :)
***** Haha, you're most welcome, Skall ;) point taken of course. Really goes to show how effective spears are
Shit dude, when did your camera become so amazing. Don't know why but this video specifically looks amazing.
Im so high wtf am i watching..
a video about penetration.
Actually, I think that the test is flawed... You are throwing the spear front (like a dart), instead of downward (in a parabolic trajectory, like a long ranged arrow). If the lances penetrated that far in a (Improvised) gambeson and went all the way through that ballistic gel, cardboard and yoga mat, it probably had touched (or at least drawed some blood from) your opponent, even with some chain mail or some thinner plate mails.
The throw movement when you do it downward instead of front, has more weight and momentum, therefore MORE destructive power.
Anyway, it is a pretty demonstration of power from a lance.
+Dark Kenshi
But that was the point of the video, to figure out whether a quick forward throw in a duel would work. It was based on this video, where people doubted that an attack like that could do any damage: ua-cam.com/video/XyaB6KQbksM/v-deo.html
***** Yep, I know that!
But what I mean is that your throw is NOT a quick FORWARD throw, as it is a quick DOWNWARD throw, as I can see in the video... The lance is up in the air, with the tip lower than the back end of the shaft, so, it describes a short, but fast parabolic flight.
If a forward (or a direct flight) does THAT much of damage, imagine what a throw EXACTLY like the one in the previous video will do?
This is the point I am trying to paint... The two throws are different, if you pay really close attention... And in my opinion, the first throw (in the first video) is MUCH MORE devastating!
So, do you mind if you try with the SAME throw that you did in the first video?
This will prove your point to the people that actually don't believe that a spear would do that much damage to even plated armor opponents...
+Dark Kenshi
Ah, I see what you mean. Apparently I read your comment too fast and misunderstood it.
Honestly I don't think that the angle makes that much of a difference in this case. But I could do another spear throwing test sometime.
+Skallagrim Would be cool if you could buy a not-too-expensive gambeson to do the next test against ;)
+Mags
The Problem is, that a good Gambeson is constructed totally different. Compare 10-30 layers of densely woven fabric to 3-6 layers of cheap fabric. Or even worse you compare it just to a arming doublet, that is only stuffed to absorb force. I would recommend 10-15 Layers tight woven linen that ist sewn together an inch wide apart.
gambeson_olaf_2.jpg
that would do ok for a test, but i think the spear blades will win ;-)
Greetings
Clearly the man with the biggest spear goes all the way every time if you know what I mean 😜
super owned sparring move with throwing that spear! that was SICK! now thats smarts.. and those are some very impressive throwing skills with the spear you gots there bud
I appears kinda pathetic to me that he throws these spears from a 3,5 m perspective.
If you had watched the introduction to the test you would know why.
+Skallagrim That is true, but I didn't feel like listening to an 6:30 min long introduction.
not his fault you're impatient and thus ill informed
Hey Natsu
No offense, but that's not my problem.
+Skallagrim Don't worry, I'm not easily offended. Generally speaking: I know that it's probably not very appropriate to judge a video if one hasn't even watched most of it; also I usually like watching your vidz but lately I tend to skip these rather time intensive theoretical parts because it bores me.
Jesus Christ, the frame rate on this video is amazing! Also, y'know, the video itself is pretty damn good too.
Vegan Hunting 7:00
Good job Skall!
Remember to grunt when possible. It increases strength and endurance while striking.
I'm serious commenters. People don't do it just to look tough in front of others.
Heheh, I remember some prudes calling for it to be banned from womens tennis.. But they werent doing it for the hell of it. It is also taught in martial arts. Atleast you should exhale when striking...
damn i would expect you to know how to trow a spear O_O
The point was not to use the most efficient throw, the point was to show whether a quick, non-telegraphed throw like the one I did in sparring in a different video would do enough damage.
throw*
rami shaath :D someone has nothing better to do LOL :D
+Kristaps Rieznieks he's only correcting your grammatical mistake, at least be grateful for it
Andrew Lay Why would i be grateful for it its annoying and rude... Im not English and i just mistype there ... missing h is not a mistake its just a key not pressed ..
I remember a test on deadliest warrior were some guy who had a Lance on horseback pierced a ballistic gel torso, then he put on leather lamalar and it went in even further.
Hi Skall!
I was one of those who had some observation on the throwing spear in sparring. I have not seen the video demonstrations yet (I'm looking forward to it!), But before proceeding, I would like to clarify my particular point:
Unlike some other reviewers, I was not me referring to hit against an armored opponent.
I was sure that his throw would certainly hurt your opponent, even unarmored, but did not appear to be powerful enough to incapacitate him. And with an opponent still able to fight back and if you have lost your weapon...
I remember I got to see that his arm was a little low at the time of throwing, which may have made the movement look weaker.
Ok with that, I now turn to the video. I'm looking forward to find out if I was wrong, and hope it is, because that will mean that I learned a new technique. :)
I was really "dying" (quibble) of curiosity to see a throw test with a board spear. Thank you for providing us with this.
Ah yes, the formidable Medieval Yoga Mat Gambeson!
+Skallagrim As opposed to merely a lack of mass being the reason why the shortest spearhead did the least damage, I'd also take a look at the shape of it. It seems to have a wide head, which probably attributes to how much drag it catches upon penetration. The other two, based on the video appearance, seem to be thinner than the shortest spearhead.
Other considerations would be the force of a spear throw either knocking a target back, off-balance or to the ground and potential tactical benefits from that. :)
I read in some book that the main purpose of the Roman pilum was not to hurt the enemy but to disable his shield, the javelin would penetrate it and the soft metal which it was made of would have bent, making it almost impossible to take it out from the hole forcing you to drop your shield and fight without it.
love the new cam m8 :) soo smooth :D
Good test! I'm not surprised by the results, the javelin head looks a bit thick, but the other two seem to have a finer edge, and I guess that's better at cutting into fabric, not just separate the threads. The hewing spear was great, it must have a good chopping capacity :)
first of all: now i wanna but a spearhead... and second.
it would be interresting to see what different types of throwing axe do to the gambeson setup you have there.
Nice experiment, Skall!
From what you have done, it looks like such a technique is certainly dangerous to the other combatant. It does not matter too much to judge if it would be a fatal wound or not, because not all techniques are meant to kill in one single hit. If it can hurt, then it's useful, and it would just depend on the wielder to judge if it is worth throwing your weapon (as long as it's not your only weapon, that is) to inflict an additional wound, which can be fatal. On a battlefield you would never use it if it's your only weapon, but on a 1 vs 1 combat it's much more tempting.
It's clear to me, also, that you are not using proper techique either, because you are throwing the spears using just your arm strength, when you can use much more than that: you can use your legs, hips, shoulders, to add much more punch to the throw. Of course, it's not like you are going to be able to have a full run to do so, but just taking a step forward adds more momentum to the spear.
The spark when the one bladed spear hit the other at 11:12 was pretty neato.
I think it would be very interesting to see testing of bronze age spears, specifically the yetholm spear. It has a very interesting blade shape that i think would be great to see tested.
I respect you for crediting the creator of the background soundtrack, I was actually about to comment and ask because I liked it... And I see you actually put a link. Here, have a star *
Have 2 :D **
Wow, this was wery cool to watch and i learned a lot. Great video and thanks for doing it :)
Very cool video. These ones where you test weapons like this are some of my favorites. And you seem to have a decent throw too. It can be tough to get used to the particular way a javelin needs to be thrown imo (as opposed to the arm motion used for throwing a baseball for example, which people are more used to).
wow that was a surprise. When i saw how hard it was to penetrate it with knife stabs even by putting all your strength and weigt into it, i really didn't expect the spears to do better
Skall, I think that one of the two bigger spears is usually called "partizan", wich is a long spear with a very large blade, that can also cut and not only stick in.
Great videos as always but I would recommend:
1. Hold the javelin on the point of balance if it's rather small and light (up to how you feel) and behind the point of balance if a bigger heavier one.
2. Twist your body to the side of the spear and extend your arm behind you.
3. Snap back just a little more than you did statically, start the acceleration with you arm and throwing shoulder.
4. When the javelins point of balance if beside your shoulder you start twisting your rear foot/leg in the direction of the throw.
5. Let this twist continue up your body through your hips, waist and shoulders.
6. Give the javelin an extra snap by contracting the side of your torso that i in the direction of the throw
7. Follow the javelin as far as possible without altering its path, the longer you are in contact with the spear the more power you can twist into it and when it leaves your hand it should feel like your whole body is going with it.
Have a good one.
***** Another tip is: Imagine you are trying to push a button really hard that will release your rear foots toes from a bear trap further away than you can stretch :)
The one thing I would like to say about the actual javelin is that javelins would be a lot better against someone with no armor (though the actual chances of that are very slim), but I don't even think javelins were meant to be lethal. To my understanding, they would be used to drop shield, not sure if that was just Romans, or be used to hurt the enemy a bit before you got there. One thing I noticed in Rome 2 Total War was that if a soldier was hit by one javelin, he would very rarely ever die. That's why you would have a lot of people throwing javelins, because on the chance that multiple hit someone, they are very likely to die or become incapacitated.
great video, I love these kinds of tests
It is obvious from your throwing form that you didn't grow up in America where almost all boys learn how to throw at an early age. But I was surprised by how effective the long bladed spear was. I imagine that if you had trained for a long time in throwing things then you would have gotten significantly more penetration out of them too. But even in the hands of someone who isn't the most proficient thrower, a thrown spear can obviously do a lot of damage. Thanks for sharing this Skallagrim. :)
Some thoughts:
1. I was very glad Skallagrim didn't cut his hand when trying to stab with the knife. Having your hand slip past the handle onto the blade is actually a fairly common injury when attempting to stab like this.
2. Spearmen came in two types. There were those who fought hand to hand. They typically had longer shafts and would thrust with the spear. These soldiers would not throw their spear, as they would then have no weapon. The other type were support troops. The javelin throwers in a Roman legion come to mind. They would throw their spears (often to lead an attack), but were not the main fighting force.
Leopold3131
The knife has a guard. I couldn't possibly slip down onto the blade.
The standard used by most edged weapon users is that if a knife can penetrate 4" into a target, it can reach an artery or touch certain vital organs from certain angles (under the armpit for a lung or under the ribs to the liver). If your spear throw can penetrate 4" of tissue AFTER breaching the target's armor, you can cause an incapacitating or even lethal wound.
The standard of penetration the FBI set for 10% Ballistic Gel is 12" of penetration for a minimum (with no more than 18" to prevent overpenetration by bullets). This is because 10% Gel represents muscle tissue and is not representative of other tissues in the body. Skin may account for as much as 3" of that penetration, and bone can account for between 4" and 8" of penetration. This is why the FBI settled on the 12" minimum for ballistic testing. Please note that projectile weapons (bows, javelins, atlatl's) often do not penetrate very far in Ballistic Gel but can often completely penetrate big game such as white-tailed deer in real life hunting/field conditions. This is because these weapons possess a "cutting edge" that bullets do not. I don't think we will ever create a medium that can accurately represent the real world performance of most weapons.
+Skallagrim if you're interested in having more spear related content. I'd love to see you use a woomera (or atlatl) with both traditional and steel tipped spears. These spear throwing devices effectively extend the throwing arm allowing the thrower to launch the projectile much faster and further.
"So this channel needs more spears, don't you think?" YES!
Very cool, and it does show some of the advantage of the thrown spear. If you could have taken a step through with the throw, I imagine you would have seen even more penetration, though it wouldn't have been a good comparison to the sparring video then.
One thing that I did think, after seeing your stabbing with the knife, would it be possible to get a similar video with more of a medieval style dagger, and maybe even rapier or small sword showing a blade designed for thrusting through certain armor? Assuming of course you have access to such at present.
Note to self:"do NOT piss Mr. Skallagrim off when you are within throwing range of him and he has a pointy stabby pole thing close by"
That Celtic spear point (the big one), I don't think you would ever throw, except for a last ditch effort. That type of spear, along with his sword, would have been a warrior's prized possession and used as a stabbing, piercing, even slashing weapon that he wouldn't have just thrown at the enemy. Too easy to pick up and be used against you. Thus why the Romans adopted/developed the Pilum, so that it could not be returned to sender
Thanks for another great video!
I noticed something that might be interesting about the impacts. The initial throws against the armor mock-up occurred when the target had considerable contact with the tree. These early throws had little penetration through the innermost layers. Afterwards, the target had much less support and there was greater penetration through the armor. This seemed independent of the technique.*
Did the heavy, cardboard backing cause a change in energy transfer that could have lead to this observation?
* As others have said, you threw the spear with slightly differing technique. It seemed to even out.
I'd like to see a similar video to test how far your under and overhand single handed thrusts do against the same or similar target (for consistency). At such close range, sometimes a handheld thrust might have more power than a throw. And of course its never wise to throw a weapon unless you have a backup or are prepared to grapple for their weapon. But I would like to see a fair test of handheld vs thrown at similar distance.
Nice video, it was very informative. For constructive feedback: I did miss an overarching conclusion this time in relation to the surprise throw (just for wrapping things up and in relation to the mass/type of the spear or javelin).