To watch the complete video, go here: exciting-pioneer-6049.ck.page... You are welcome to get in touch e.g. via my website: dimicator.com Find hundreds of related posts here: / posts
To watch the complete video, go here: exciting-pioneer-6049.ck.page/e291efd8de Read about the historical size of the Dane axe here: sagy.vikingove.cz/en/two-handed-axes/ Learn about the approach to Dane axe fighting in this conference demo at the Danish National Museum: exciting-pioneer-6049.ck.page/68ce4e381d
More than anything,I think this showcased some excellent shield work. And that I would not want to be a single axe man trying to fight a spearman. Good way to find yourself full of small holes and slowly bleeding out knowing even if you win you're dead of sepsis by next week...
Yeah…then again, neither is able to apply full force like they’re trying to kill the other. I have a suspicion the effectiveness of the axe would be a lot better when it’s wielder is actually able to apply force and do things like bat the end of the spear away.
@@Gillymonster18 batting away a spear head with an axe head, you'd still be far away from the wielder of the spear, and the spear head is very light and either would be moved away from the batting and stab the axe wielder's unprotected body/arms, or the spear would be quickly brought back on centre to impale the axe guy as he moves forward for the attack after batting the spear away. The only way I can see the axe guy getting a hit is if the spear guy makes a mistake on an overly ambitious thrust and bad positioning/off balance.
@@Gillymonster18 weapons in themselves are force multipliers and the dane axe especially does not need additional "force". Whilst they did have to be a lot more careful here, there are numerous tests done in both 1v1 and skirmishes involving spears and the spears win easily. people seem to forget that men holding spears arent idiots who will just bend over for their opponents.
the spear only becomes useful once you have formation-capable trained infantry (i.e. the ability to organize your peasant levies enoguh to get them to train for several months, which was non-trivial in the early middle ages).
@@Pilafcg by useful I mean in the sense inwhich fanboys imagine 'oh spear guys will almost always beat sword guys', this is only true in certain context
Agreed, it is very nice to see people actually practicing martial prowess instead of just randomly bashing each other full force like bunch of apes. I saw it just too many times for it to be funny.
I love the control that everyone exhibits to provide for the safety of their training partners. I would love to see this type of freeplay contrasted with footage of similar freeplay but with the participants wearing protective gear to allow a higher level of speed and strength. I originally wanted to say intensity, but I do think there is a great deal of intensity in the deliberateness and control that the participants in this video are using.
Personally, I find geared up sparring inhibiting in other ways, and a lot less appealing to watch. That is why I do not post it very often, although we do train it. You might find some material in older Berlin Buckler Bouts videos if you bother to look. I think that protected sparring is generally over-rated in terms of research into historical combat. It is distorted in other ways, most notably in regard to risk assessment. With heavy protection, most people take many more risks that they would never take without protection and with sharp weapons. That is part of the reason why most geared up HEMA hardly resembles what is seen in the fight books. Also, speed is usually not considerably higher with protection when economy of movement and precision are qualities that you aim for, in contrast to charging in. The latter is the mark of most sports matches, the former is for martial arts practice, in my opinion. All fine, you just have to be aware of the limitations of a chosen combat simulation.
@@swordandshield I totally agree, but there are definitely pros and cons to each. An interesting part of this video was at 2:05, Alfred definitely landed that thrust with his spear, but pulled back so as to not hit Christian. In turn, Christian didn't feel it and didn't seem to realize he would have been hit. Most likely with gear he would have felt the attack land and acknowledged it. This in itself is both a pro and a con, since in actual martial combat, sometimes a blow like that might immediately put someone down and other times it wouldn't. Basically, the protective gear vs none / historical garb is a deep, nuanced one and I agree it's good to do both.
@@stormrhode2330 Exactly. It is absolutely true that each form of martial arts training creates artefacts. Only when you use different training modes and various levels of protection, plus sharp weapons practice, you can become aware of each mode's shortcomings. Lacking expert tuition by living veterans, that is the best we can do.😃
@@swordandshield I suppose this, or something very like it, must have been how they practiced back then, as they didn't have modern safety gear, haha. Would at least head gear not be beneficial? I feel like some kind of head covering would mean those strikes could land, which would be instructive even if they were still pulled back somewhat, and that would read more clearly than some of the (very skillful and deft, but still quite risky) feints that suffice instead of a strike to the face or head. Given the care you are all displaying, I worry less about injuries to the body, but it seems like the head is still at risk, and also (understandably) where people try to strike the most. Perhaps it is just my nerves, but I wince every time that spear thrusts up towards the head, feels like an accident waiting to happen. Then again, you're all grown ups and know what you're doing, so I'm sure you've weighed the pros and cons.
@@Lurklen true. And as I said before, we do use full protection in our standard training too. However, putting on modern facemasks in this museum context would look silly. Putting on period head protection like an iron helmet (which one of us actually did) only means that a hit does not have the same effect - the whole point of protection. And it is my observation that people tend to become less precise the more protection is worn. This is why we NEVER wear any protection when practicing with sharps. But you are right: None of us recommends doing this without appropriate training and an according mindset. But that should be self-evident.
I can appreciate how these fellows are sparing in period clothes. Not massive HEMA padding & just from experience know when a hit is made or not. That is where the real skill is here I believe.
Plus, no fencing masks back then either. Of course I see the merits of modern protection, and all of these guys use it in their regular training too. But weapon practice in historical kit in this kind of environment is what I enjoy most. By far.
The experience is very visible. No ego, no personal revenge, just pure matial art prowess. It's nice to see how well you are able to use the spear and shield and create distance.
great example of how simply grabbing or hooking the spear is way harder than people make it seem. Much more difficult when the other figher has a vote in what's going on.
The problem with that logic is that the other guy is using a 2 handed weapon, _not_ a single handed one and he's also not using a shield. Melee combat requires a boatload of contexts to determine a given situation.
Very interesting. Especially the moments Christian uses the axe with the handle forward to deflect the incoming thrusts. Very reminiscent of poleaxe techniques. Is there a reason why both spearmen choose the overhand grip? Also, big respect for going the extra mile and doing it with period weapons and clothing, without any modern protection. I can only admire the level of weapon control I do not possess.
Thanks for your kind words, much appreciated. Regarding gripping the Dane axe: Emil explained their approach at a conference at the Danish National Museum. A video of their complete demo and discussion can be accessed here: exciting-pioneer-6049.ck.page/68ce4e381d
1:02 Hah an audience once gave me crap for doing that during an event against a horse rider wondering why I didn't hold my hand axe 'correctly'. I never understood why people bothered with swords when you can have an axe instead. Fun demonstration you folks!
The majority of the populace just wants to be entertained, not educated. It's all about the spectacle and the drama, not the crude reality of life. You often see that type of situation with the more lesser known Japanese Ryu-has, when they demonstrate weird or different methods of swordsmanship. Then you have to go into an lengthy explanation of why it is done as such.
The reason why I decided to use shamanic chants in this video is because Neil Price, in his ground-breaking work "The Viking Way", has convincingly pointed out the strong influences of shamanic rituals on Viking Age Scandinavian beliefs. So the choice of soundtrack here is based on what I consider appropriate in light of academic research. If you enjoyed, the better.
The spear was literally the original weapon and is still fielded by militaries across the world in the form of bayonets affixed to small arms. It's a weapon system with a 400k year service history. Thats wild
Not every attack needs to be done with an optimized tool for that motion. It makes you horrendously predictable. Thrust with the axe head is a staple of the axe moveset, it does plenty of damage without having a spike/spear tip, just a pure crushing jab. Same with hits using the back of the axehead despite the weapon not being optimized for that with a hammer or backspike, but it's a very common dane axe attack anyways @@oneukum
Makes you wonder if the origins of Dane axe fighting developed from combat in a more confined space like a ship vs ship battlw. There the range was already cut down and spearmen could not manuever as much. And it goes without saying that armor would certainly increase the survivability of the Dane axe fighter to close. As well as teamwork, say a Dane axe fighter with comrade using a shield to actively control enemy spears.
The axe Has to be very agressive, his defence being putting his opponent completely on the defensive. These guys have fantastic control to not maim eachother.
That is because the dane axe, similar to the montante, spadone and other two handed cutting weapons was used to break formations in group combat, applying great force against unaware enemies (Which are focused on your companions) to kill them in one blow and open a gap in their formation. But struggles a lot in individual combat
Basically confirms what we know: in 1on1 spearman is usually dominating as long as he have space to move around and keep distance. Formation would probably be different.
I agree. The only flaw with blunt weapon testing is that a sharp edge has significantly more potential to dominate a wooden shaft. In this respect, all blunte weapon fencing distorts the reality of historical combat. Here is a comparison of how a sharp edge fares as opposed to a blunt: ua-cam.com/video/4a9LE1Nc_gk/v-deo.html Here is a video which shows how many axe blows a spear shaft might cope with before snapping: ua-cam.com/video/f6G7p_ppnxA/v-deo.htmlsi=5oT3KmcAQCu4Zw2c
@@swordandshield Interesting. However I think major obstacle in reconstuction of basically any form of close combat is still human psychology. The level of fear and excitement combatants with sharp weapons must endured must have had massive influence over how this combat worked. Sharp pointy stick 20 cm from ones face is something entirely different when wielded by your sparring friend and actual enemy. Probably spear just because of its length had additional advantage in this respect (?), while those big axes were very specialized weapons demanding guts and good armour. The axed combatant here, without any helmet and face protection, would most probably be dispatched quite easily in real fight.
Indeed. On the other hand, practitioners tend to become less precise the more protection is worn. Anyway, in this museum display context, the gear is confined to period kit. So without appropriate skill and mindset it would definitely be better to refrain from it.
You can see how dangerously easy is to end with that point impaled in your face - even by skilled folk. Now imagine 100 guys facing you... The spear was truly the backbone of mankind
It's good to know that in Denmark there are still people who preserve ancient traditions, instead of certain mistakes of post-modern society. Please keep posting!
Pretty amazing to watch. This must require an extreme degree of motion controll for not to injure or kill your partners - even if the weapons here got blunted.
I think that more modern practitioners should devote more time and energy on figuring out what historical training might have looked like, instead of putting on excessive amounts of modern protection to create questionable forms of combat simulation. Anyway, one 13th century combat training advice is to not "drink until you get merry" - which to me suggests that they did have fun at training at times.
Mikkel does indeed change into this grip a couple of times. We believe that delivering a slide-thrust from there is indeed the most powerful and dangerous attack which is why it is seen in historical sources since antiquity and well into the late Middle Ages. However, it is also the most difficult to do in a safe manner. So this is the main reason why we find it difficult to apply in this kind of practice.
Thanks for the video. In real life, how much of Dane axe fighting was one on one and how much was part of groups fighting. I can more easily imagine one soldier along a shield line wielding a Dane axe to break up the other side's shield line. The soldier wielding the Dane axe would be protected by spearmen on his own side who were holding shields.
The man with dane axe is usually a mailed professional. Most spearmen would be quite lightly equipped, which changes things a fair bit. Armour is a bigger factor than reach.
What the @TheNEOverse said. On the 11th century the Dane axe-wielding so-called Housecarls were an Anglo-Saxon elite unit, fully armoured. In Byzantium, the so-called Varangian guard allegedly used the nordic two-handed axe. They were special forces too.
Shield walls are a completely different talk! ;o) But, there's way more content about shield walls at YT than about single fighting. Free free to go and have a months long rabbit hole (at least)!
@@TheSquidPro Years ago when they allowed dane axes at Neustadt Glewe field battle, they said: long axes changed the battlefield dramastically. You cann't allow yourself to defend you're neighbors as much as before, 'cause you have to defend your own front and top now with way more awareness. That said, I guess: dane axe works better in a shield wall. Synergy effects benefit long axe fighters.
I actually do not know where the fighters in the video got their axes from. Thor's Forge by Tord Bergelin is known for making great Dane axes. I am sure you can track him down.
Is eye protection not necessary? Wouldn’t fancy that spear point coming at my eyes like that with me potentially moving towards it too, even with it being just a blunt training tip.
Thank you for the video. Obviously, you enjoy historical reenactment! A chain mail like that costs a lot more then a shield, so the spear and shield guy is in a disadvantage in a one-on-one duel. Another matter, if the shield guys form up a shield wall.
Great sparring. Given the simple effectiveness of the spear and shield, what do you think the role of the Dane axe was on the battlefield? It looks to me like one would have to be very aggressive at their own peril to be effective with the axe.
From what we can tell, two-handed axes were used by heavily armoured special forces, such as the Varangian guard, or the Huscarls. The latter are shown in action on the Bayeux Tapestry. I am not aware of any detailed sources. But you can find a video with an introduction to the research approach and a demo given at a conference at the Danish National Museum here: exciting-pioneer-6049.ck.page/68ce4e381d
Have you tested the right underhand grip in a close formation? I wonder if the axe would not be in a natural defence position at rest and it would be more difficult for the spearman to defend against the axe pushed towards the hand or face without room to manoeuvre?
There are so many aspects and variables in such a scenario that are impossible to address in a comment section. But measure is indeed key, as always. And the fact remains that the party with shorter weapons first has to get past spear points before they can do damage. Never an easy task, in particular when spears can come from multiple angles.
The fights seem like the shield almost does more for the axeman than it does for the spearmen. Particularly thinking about the moment at 1:30 where two handing the spear leads to immediate victory. But the lack of a solid lever grip looks like it makes handling parries from the axe pretty bad.
This is really well done. Unfortunately they can't safely use much of the power of a two handed axe, which against a single handed spear could make a big difference.
I am not so sure. There definitely is a great inherent risk of injury which calls for utmost axe control in practice which does slow down some actions. On the other hand, the two-hande axe is top heavy a weapon, and requires precise and controlled maneuvers to prevent exposing yourself. Plus, each hard blow on a shield means a clear pressure signal easy to respond to for an able opponent, and dedication to one action implies having less tactical flexibility during this action. This should be reserved for the moment when you have established control, and the decisivel blow is but the icing on the cake, in particular against a weapon moving so fast as the spear. Finally, with sharps one has to avoid getting caught in the shield. So utmost control is also called for when the opponent's safety is not a consideration.
@swordandshield Finesse and timing are always necessary. I'm not suggesting swinging an axe like a baseball bat. But the spear/shield has significant advantage of reach and cover. The only advantage the axe has is power, which I think could be used with control to move the obstacles while closing the distance. Of course, discussing it is much easier than doing it.
Clearly the spear is superior one-Vs-one. Makes you wonder how come those famous axe-wielder guards, like Housecarls or Varangians were so dominating! Most probably they were held in reserve to deal with any breakthrougs from the front ranks. I imagine those breaking through would no longer had their spears intact. Or even perhaps those guard units included shield-bearers, probably sword-fighters to punch through or/and disrupt the spear-fence; subsequently the battleaxes would be devastating in close quarters.
Surely the people with the axes have to hold back their speed and power for fear of injuring their opponent if it connects? Like you can't safely and delicately recreate a full speed axe swing.
Yes and no. There definitely is a great inherent risk of injury which calls for utmost control in practice. This does slow down some actions, swift changes in combos in particular. On the other hand, the two-hande axe is top heavy a weapon, and requires precise and controlled maneuvers to prevent exposing yourself. Plus, each hard blow on a shield means a clear pressure signal easy to respond to for an able opponent, and dedication to one action implies having less tactical flexibility during this action. This should be resereved for the moment when you have established control, and the decisivel blow is but the icing on the cake. Finally, with sharps one has to avoid getting caught in the shield. So utmost control is also called for when the opponent's safety is not a consideration. I would also like to point out that, in terms of speed, it is weapon speed that counts, not the speed at which combatants move. The economy of movement that can be seen with skilled martial artists is oftentimes deceiving because general audiences are used to watch the overall frame. But looking at the spear point alone, or the axe head, then I do not feel that they would move considerably faster in other training scenarios.
I've always wondered how someone trained in armor would treat a spear opponent. A spear is great with long range, and fast recovery but if you attack an armored location and your opponent advances on you then they have a great advantage. Context matters though, training, fighting in ranks, role, armor etc etc.
Good point. Based on previous tests, we considered spear shots to a hauberk as a valid, fight terminating hit in this form of training. Slices, however, would have no cutting ability. You can see Mikkel addressing this issue in the full 10 minute video: exciting-pioneer-6049.ck.page/e291efd8de This being said, while e.g. a thrust from a Viking sword has a lot less armour piercing capability, the impact of being stabbed would feel like a massive punch and could hardly be ignored. At any rate, armour offers protection when e.g. your skill has betrayed you. But it was never made to replace skill.
This is a great display of skill, however I have two questions about the choice of weapons and technique: - why are the spears only handled in an underhand grip, when nearly all sources (admittedly we have few for that time period) point toward the use of an overhand grip? - you're clearly sparring in a "duelling" context, but do we have any evidence of these weapons being used in single combat (or in very small skirmishes)? The spear with shield is common yes, but the axe seems to be very much a battlefield weapon... unless we take into account the possibility that the icelandic "bryntröll" is a dane-axe, in which case this is a number of skirmishes/ambushes where it is used.
Well for one its a training setting, and ment to be that... also broad axes are shown in civilian contekst on the tapestry.. and in some sence being a "professionals" weapon there is probably also use outside of battlefield.. some mentions in medieval texts and sagas... but again its written in the 1200's... However it is definately a disadvantage going one on one against spear and shield with a broadaxe 😆 but a great challenge...
@@hafniaanonymous7605 No *fighting* is shown in a civilian context in the Bayeux Tapestry. They are carrying these axes around as status symbols. And the fighting is done in armour and in formation. As for the sagas as I wrote it's unclear, there are axes yes, broadaxes are very rare, and in active use out of a pitched battle / armoured context event rarer.
All im saying is that they will have trained with the axe... as do we... I 100% agree that the merits of the broadaxe is with armour and in the contekst of infantry combat on a specialized level
All good points. Mikkel does indeed change into the overam grip occasionally. I would like to see it more often too. The reason why it is difficult to use in this training context (that is without additional protective gear) is that it is much more difficult to safely apply it, in contrast to the underam grip (which is confirmed by period images too, by the way). This is presumably the reason why it was so widespread a ward: A slide-thrust delivered from the overarm ward is extremely efficient! As for evidence of Dane axe use in duelling contexts: No, none that I am aware of. One could argue that, with the Varangian Guard being equipped with two-handed axes, there might have been contexts other than battles. but that as highly conjectural. Anyway, the scarcity of sources would never keep us from exploring various training contexts for the simple reason that we can. And if only to confirm that it is extremely challenging for the axe fighter to confront a shielded spearman in duel.
Regarding gripping the Dane axe: Emil explained their approach at a conference at the Danish National Museum. A video of their complete demo and discussion can be accessed here: exciting-pioneer-6049.ck.page/68ce4e381d
Eow, those sounds like Spear-Danes Lo! the Spear-Danes' glory through splendid achievements The folk-kings' former fame we have heard of, How princes displayed then their prowess-in-battle.
I can see a unit of angry vikings using dane axes breaking a unit of spearman, due to how tight spear formations are I think they can get close enough to kinda void a spear
1:22 is a great example of one of the benefits of centre grips But gods does it give me the heebie jeebies to see sparing with no protection XD Takes a skill and self control far beyond my own abilities, though I'm very much a newbie so thats not a suprise
I wonder how the spear and shield would fare against an unarmed opponent. With two free hands to grab the spear. Obviously, the unarmed person would need a higher skill level but it might be an interesting matchup
All comes down to armour. The Japanese Samurai main weapon was a spear. Landsknecht long spear, Napoleonic war's spears was the musket and bayonet. Now if you can get past the point then things get easier, but why spears are a formation weapon. With weapons its speed or weight??? Just takes one hole for a person to leak, and have a bad day.
Both are wearing gamberson that's light duty armor and padded protective clothing, often worn underneath more armor. They also have large shields that off a lot of heavy level protection. Same with the chain mail, other than medium level protection against stabbing. It's a reenactment with period accurate protection and weapons.
In my experience, the more protection is worn, the less precise practitioners become. The pros and cons of protective gear have been discussed repeatedly in this video's comments, in case you are interested.
Thank you for your concern. This is but one training method of many, and like all training, the level of what can be done safely depends on the level of skill. The context of the training in this video is a museum demo. It would have looked silly with modern protective gear. Anyway, the subject of appropriate protection, and its pros and cons have been discussed in this video's comments repeatedly. So you can learn more if you are interested.
У копейщика слишком пассивная манера владения щитом! Щит даёт возможность блокировать оружие противника для быстрого укола в ногу с последующим отходом.
A fantastic video, as are all of yours, Roland, but I must say that I don't like the use of central asian throatsinging here. It has nothing to do with norse culture, there is no throat singing in norse culture AFAIK, despite what hollywood is trying to sell us these last few years. And that's exactly the problem: This is using central asian throatsinging from real cultures like the Tuvans or Mongolians, or the people from the Altai mountains, and it's reframing a completely misunderstood cultural practice as something sinister, forboding, dangerous. Throatsinging gets used nowadays to signify evil danger and badassery. That's simply tasteless
We know nothing about what Scandinavian music of the Viking Age sounded like. The only contemporary source comes from Ibn Jakub's visit to Hedeby. He compares the Danish singing to the barking of dogs. The reason why I decided to use shamanic chants in this video is because Neil Price, in his ground-breaking work "The Viking Way", has convincingly pointed out the strong influences of shamanic rituals on Viking Age Scandinavian beliefs. So the choice of soundtrack here is based on what I consider appropriate in light of academic research. I appreciate your sensitivity to cultural aspects. Your final comment, however, devaluates your point and comment completely. Maybe next time first ask, then judge.
@@swordandshield I think it's problematic to jump from "we don't know" to "definitely shamanic" to "throatsinging from 6000km away". Not all shamanic religions are related, in fact most are not related at all except in their predating of christianity and similar large, force-converting religions. And I have no idea why throatsinging and shamanism have to be linked this closely. They certainly coexist in parts of the world, and are certainly used together too, but acapella choirs aren't inherently christian just because they're used in churches too. Most Tuvan and Mongolian throatsinging describes nature, historical events or (most commonly by far) just beautiful horses. I will admit I have not read "the Viking Way", but it is going onto my list, thanks. The choice of soundtrack would be perfectly fine if you said "I just like throatsinging, deal with it" because indeed, as do I, but construing it as something historical to norse culture seems a bit much to me. We can disagree on this, I just wanted to offer my opinion as a long time fan. And no, my final comment doesn't devalue anything, especially because it was aimed at the previously mentioned Hollywood, not your use of throatsinging. I found your use to be a bit unfortunate at worst, while Hollywood's use is regularly tasteless. Using throatsinging to signify evil badassery reminds me of movies portraying Norse people as dirty, stupid, fur wearing barbarians, which, I'm sure you would agree, is simply tasteless.
@@BoarhideGaming Understood. Thanks for clarfying. I am fine with ageeing to disagree on this one, but I do not consider it a big deal anyway. Thanks for your general interest in my work.
Stupid thing to ise daneaxe against spear,better to run away or switch to sword. Every weapon has it's place and both spear and daneaxe wouldn't be used in duels, they're battlefield weapons.
I hear you, but food for thought? Turns out that real "Vikings" were of Asian descent, and their singing was (at least once) described as a terrible din, like crows.
Weapons length does make a significant difference, that Dane-axe seems to short for that kind of action. Isn't the length of it supposed to be the height of a man, or its wielder?
No... atleast there is no evidence for souch a thing... on the tapestry the height is below armpits... the tallet shaft found is 120cm if I remember right... the tall axes is a reenactorism, made to suit sporting needs...
@@hafniaanonymous7605 . Well up to the height of the armpits is quite a significant length, on the average person that's about 66" inches. The rest is just shoulders and neck, which can be chopped off!
The stats of training weapons in this video are all based on research into original weaponry. Read more on authentic axe proportions here: sagy.vikingove.cz/en/two-handed-axes/
It seems like with this kind of short dane axe, u have to control the whole shaft, sacrificing abit of reach ofcourse, but u will have the leverage not only when u control the spear but also in close combat. I fight with a 180cm dane axe, which is prox 3cm longer than myself. But even so, I have to sacrifice reach for control. It also depends how heavy the dane axe is.
Historical depictions put them at about breast to chin hight so taller than yourself is strictly not historically accurate. It's useful for sure but this here is about historical kit.
@@fabianbockel5700 this does pose the question then, why? Why not make it into a pole arm / longer weapon, its twohanded anyways, so it would only make sense to do that,
@@fabianbockel5700 indeed. And who are we to critisise the choices made by those who actually used these weapons? The Dane axe would likely perform better in different combat contexts than seen here. But as you say, we go by what little source material we have.
That's a good point that we often don't think about, and take into consideration. How would they have trained back then when protection equipment was not available? A long time ago Otake Risuke sensei explained that engaging in any kind of contest type of training, took away from the reality and seriousness of actual combat. In which you could actually lose your life or end up injured. He was always against it, and discourage anyone from doing it, you would not gain anything from it except knowing that someone won.
@@tatumergo3931 oh, very interesting. I think he is right. I often think about this too. Within only a few months of drilling with sharp blades I learned skills to protect my sword hand simply by positioning in a way that I failed to acquire in more of a decade of geared up practice. I also feel that the focus that practitioners instantly display when they train with sharp weapons is never to be seen in geared up fencing. Never ever. Another example: When I over-commit to a sword action, I occasionally cut my fingers on the edges of the metal shield edge clamps of my own Viking round shield. However, this only ever happens when fencing with blunt swords. Never with sharps.
They don't look half-speed to me; they are holding back to not hit which is what makes them look slower. I think the reason why it looks like it needs work on form is exactly because they're sparring at full speed. If there was no pressure, the spear-user wouldn't be backpedaling all the time.
@@Kensuke0987 I meant they are practicing form doing this, not really sparing or pressure testing. It would be retarded to do it full speed sparing with pointy tipped spears and no face protection.
@@TheVigilante2000 ah i see. i think they're more like they're just having fun. they seem to be all dressed up at a particular place all for the immersion. i'm no expert martial artist, but not being able to follow through with your cuts and thrusts probably wouldn't be a good way to practice form? they are at least trying techniques and testing theory, which is what sparring is all about after all.
The axe blows might be more vicious and combos more fluent, and the spear thrusts would not be held back in order to kill one another. But the overall speed could hardly increase, in particular when weapons were sharp. Because that is when you need all the discipline and precision to not get hit, and not get stuck. Heavy protection and face masks do have their merits in training (we do use them too), but they create other artefacts. Usually, precision and discipline go out the window when the heavy gear comes in ...
Without helmets, face protection, armour, gloves, padded weapons so you can strike full force etc., it is very difficult for me to see how any of this is translatable to a real fight..
Fully agree, but it does at least allow for some testing and experimentation of things like grips, footwork, lines of attack and defence, etc. Would love to see this re-done with full fencing gear, although blunted weapons will always result in some game-ifying.
What makes you believe that what is done with helmets, face protection, armour, gloves, padded weapons has relevance for research into historical combat?
Historically a large percentage of the fighters wouldn’t have had the large amount of protection that a HEMA fighter has, because of this protection the HEMA fighter is willing to risk taking a hit that a historical fighter would never be willing to take in order to score his own hit on the opponent. Fighting back then was life or death almost all the time they couldn’t even risk training injuries because of the high likelihood of infection leading to death.
@@keithpark2044 i know, and i agree. however they did go full force when they fought. without adequate protection you can't go full force, like you can in fx boxing, mma or wrestling. So it still becomes very difficult to understand how a real fight would turn out..
@@swordandshield it has relevance in the sense that they would try and go for harder hits, and closer contact. in the clip it's a lot of feeling out, being very careful etc. i've heard there are viking clubs in Denmark where they fight with full power/impact, but where strikes to the head aren't allowed, so as to achieve a balance between the two.
To watch the complete video, go here: exciting-pioneer-6049.ck.page/e291efd8de Read about the historical size of the Dane axe here: sagy.vikingove.cz/en/two-handed-axes/ Learn about the approach to Dane axe fighting in this conference demo at the Danish National Museum: exciting-pioneer-6049.ck.page/68ce4e381d
More than anything,I think this showcased some excellent shield work.
And that I would not want to be a single axe man trying to fight a spearman. Good way to find yourself full of small holes and slowly bleeding out knowing even if you win you're dead of sepsis by next week...
@@charlesparr1611 Thanks for the kind reception. Yes, the preferred combat context of the Dane Axe would have been a different one.
and always that chuckle when a touch is landed of "I didn't die, because we are just pretending."
@@nowthenzen in fact, that is only part of it. It is more about acknowledging the other one's skill.
@@swordandshield The not dying bit is what keeps it fun otherwise these videos would be pretty grim
The spear is really overpowered , cheap , easy to use and long reach . No wonder it stayed in the battlefield for so long .
Yeah…then again, neither is able to apply full force like they’re trying to kill the other. I have a suspicion the effectiveness of the axe would be a lot better when it’s wielder is actually able to apply force and do things like bat the end of the spear away.
@@Gillymonster18 Totally!
@@Gillymonster18 Yeah , but they spear could be wielded a lot faster and aggressively as well .
@@Gillymonster18 batting away a spear head with an axe head, you'd still be far away from the wielder of the spear, and the spear head is very light and either would be moved away from the batting and stab the axe wielder's unprotected body/arms, or the spear would be quickly brought back on centre to impale the axe guy as he moves forward for the attack after batting the spear away. The only way I can see the axe guy getting a hit is if the spear guy makes a mistake on an overly ambitious thrust and bad positioning/off balance.
@@Gillymonster18 weapons in themselves are force multipliers and the dane axe especially does not need additional "force". Whilst they did have to be a lot more careful here, there are numerous tests done in both 1v1 and skirmishes involving spears and the spears win easily. people seem to forget that men holding spears arent idiots who will just bend over for their opponents.
The axe is sexy and super dangerous. The sword is the popular status symbol of elites. But the spear is the king of the battlefield.
the spear only becomes useful once you have formation-capable trained infantry (i.e. the ability to organize your peasant levies enoguh to get them to train for several months, which was non-trivial in the early middle ages).
@@MicroBalrog um... No
@@MicroBalrog It always amazes me, how someone can watch the very thing they deny afterwards with a snarky comment.
@@Pilafcg by useful I mean in the sense inwhich fanboys imagine 'oh spear guys will almost always beat sword guys', this is only true in certain context
@@MicroBalrog yup, and that context is called practice
As a reenactor myself I can confirm, every bout must end in a hug.
So true.
Your guys seem to be well disciplined and low ego. Appreciate that. Great stuff to see.
This is indeed a pre-requisite for playing this game safely and constructively.
NEEDED WHEN GOING WITH METAL VS BARE SKIN WITH FRIENDS LMAO caps*
Agreed, it is very nice to see people actually practicing martial prowess instead of just randomly bashing each other full force like bunch of apes. I saw it just too many times for it to be funny.
@@johntheknight3062 thanks for your appreciation.
I love the control that everyone exhibits to provide for the safety of their training partners. I would love to see this type of freeplay contrasted with footage of similar freeplay but with the participants wearing protective gear to allow a higher level of speed and strength. I originally wanted to say intensity, but I do think there is a great deal of intensity in the deliberateness and control that the participants in this video are using.
Personally, I find geared up sparring inhibiting in other ways, and a lot less appealing to watch. That is why I do not post it very often, although we do train it. You might find some material in older Berlin Buckler Bouts videos if you bother to look. I think that protected sparring is generally over-rated in terms of research into historical combat. It is distorted in other ways, most notably in regard to risk assessment. With heavy protection, most people take many more risks that they would never take without protection and with sharp weapons. That is part of the reason why most geared up HEMA hardly resembles what is seen in the fight books. Also, speed is usually not considerably higher with protection when economy of movement and precision are qualities that you aim for, in contrast to charging in. The latter is the mark of most sports matches, the former is for martial arts practice, in my opinion. All fine, you just have to be aware of the limitations of a chosen combat simulation.
@@swordandshield I totally agree, but there are definitely pros and cons to each. An interesting part of this video was at 2:05, Alfred definitely landed that thrust with his spear, but pulled back so as to not hit Christian. In turn, Christian didn't feel it and didn't seem to realize he would have been hit.
Most likely with gear he would have felt the attack land and acknowledged it. This in itself is both a pro and a con, since in actual martial combat, sometimes a blow like that might immediately put someone down and other times it wouldn't.
Basically, the protective gear vs none / historical garb is a deep, nuanced one and I agree it's good to do both.
@@stormrhode2330 Exactly. It is absolutely true that each form of martial arts training creates artefacts. Only when you use different training modes and various levels of protection, plus sharp weapons practice, you can become aware of each mode's shortcomings. Lacking expert tuition by living veterans, that is the best we can do.😃
@@swordandshield I suppose this, or something very like it, must have been how they practiced back then, as they didn't have modern safety gear, haha. Would at least head gear not be beneficial? I feel like some kind of head covering would mean those strikes could land, which would be instructive even if they were still pulled back somewhat, and that would read more clearly than some of the (very skillful and deft, but still quite risky) feints that suffice instead of a strike to the face or head. Given the care you are all displaying, I worry less about injuries to the body, but it seems like the head is still at risk, and also (understandably) where people try to strike the most. Perhaps it is just my nerves, but I wince every time that spear thrusts up towards the head, feels like an accident waiting to happen.
Then again, you're all grown ups and know what you're doing, so I'm sure you've weighed the pros and cons.
@@Lurklen true. And as I said before, we do use full protection in our standard training too. However, putting on modern facemasks in this museum context would look silly. Putting on period head protection like an iron helmet (which one of us actually did) only means that a hit does not have the same effect - the whole point of protection. And it is my observation that people tend to become less precise the more protection is worn. This is why we NEVER wear any protection when practicing with sharps. But you are right: None of us recommends doing this without appropriate training and an according mindset. But that should be self-evident.
I can appreciate how these fellows are sparing in period clothes. Not massive HEMA padding & just from experience know when a hit is made or not. That is where the real skill is here I believe.
Plus, no fencing masks back then either. Of course I see the merits of modern protection, and all of these guys use it in their regular training too. But weapon practice in historical kit in this kind of environment is what I enjoy most. By far.
The experience is very visible. No ego, no personal revenge, just pure matial art prowess. It's nice to see how well you are able to use the spear and shield and create distance.
Finally some sparring with dane axes of accurate lengths.
Indeed.
great example of how simply grabbing or hooking the spear is way harder than people make it seem. Much more difficult when the other figher has a vote in what's going on.
The problem with that logic is that the other guy is using a 2 handed weapon, _not_ a single handed one and he's also not using a shield. Melee combat requires a boatload of contexts to determine a given situation.
Its crazy how op the pointy stick really is
Very interesting. Especially the moments Christian uses the axe with the handle forward to deflect the incoming thrusts. Very reminiscent of poleaxe techniques. Is there a reason why both spearmen choose the overhand grip?
Also, big respect for going the extra mile and doing it with period weapons and clothing, without any modern protection. I can only admire the level of weapon control I do not possess.
Thanks for your kind words, much appreciated. Regarding gripping the Dane axe: Emil explained their approach at a conference at the Danish National Museum. A video of their complete demo and discussion can be accessed here: exciting-pioneer-6049.ck.page/68ce4e381d
@@swordandshield Oh, I am definitely going to check it out. Thanks!
1:02 Hah an audience once gave me crap for doing that during an event against a horse rider wondering why I didn't hold my hand axe 'correctly'.
I never understood why people bothered with swords when you can have an axe instead. Fun demonstration you folks!
The majority of the populace just wants to be entertained, not educated. It's all about the spectacle and the drama, not the crude reality of life.
You often see that type of situation with the more lesser known Japanese Ryu-has, when they demonstrate weird or different methods of swordsmanship. Then you have to go into an lengthy explanation of why it is done as such.
The throat singing is an unexpected touch, but makes a nice complement to the action.
The reason why I decided to use shamanic chants in this video is because Neil Price, in his ground-breaking work "The Viking Way", has convincingly pointed out the strong influences of shamanic rituals on Viking Age Scandinavian beliefs. So the choice of soundtrack here is based on what I consider appropriate in light of academic research. If you enjoyed, the better.
Wonderful as always Roland
Glad you like it.
The spear was literally the original weapon and is still fielded by militaries across the world in the form of bayonets affixed to small arms. It's a weapon system with a 400k year service history. Thats wild
You don't tend to think of the axe as a stabbing weapon, but sometimes...
Sure, but at that point, shouldn't you have carried a spear in the first place?
That's exactly why som axes have a pumel or tip at the lower end
Not every attack needs to be done with an optimized tool for that motion. It makes you horrendously predictable. Thrust with the axe head is a staple of the axe moveset, it does plenty of damage without having a spike/spear tip, just a pure crushing jab. Same with hits using the back of the axehead despite the weapon not being optimized for that with a hammer or backspike, but it's a very common dane axe attack anyways @@oneukum
Makes you wonder if the origins of Dane axe fighting developed from combat in a more confined space like a ship vs ship battlw. There the range was already cut down and spearmen could not manuever as much. And it goes without saying that armor would certainly increase the survivability of the Dane axe fighter to close. As well as teamwork, say a Dane axe fighter with comrade using a shield to actively control enemy spears.
Yes indeed. From what we can tell, two-handed axes were used by heavily armoured special forces.
The axe Has to be very agressive, his defence being putting his opponent completely on the defensive. These guys have fantastic control to not maim eachother.
Ты не сможешь махать двумя-тремя килограммами долго. А копьём можно долго колоть :)
I really appreciate this live demonstration! Thank you gentlemen.
Love seeing some dane axe sparring. Would be great to se more dane axe!
amazing background elements that immerse the friendly fight
Nothing compares to training with friends in reconstrcucted gear in an appropriate venue.
"are ya down? = "how ya doing...
that's me "how ya doing, boincy?"
Always love your videos
Happy you enjoy them.
This is so entertaining and educational! You can tell that these people have trained extensively, and know what they are doing. Thanks for sharing!
Thank you. This is exactly my sentiment too when I watch my friends here, and I am happy I am not the only one!
Amazing to think that the Spear has really only ceased to be used in the last one hundred/one hundred fifty years…
Thank you for sharing.
Second that +1
Thank you for the kind reception, guys.
Spear and shield looks like such a great combo. Simplicity effective
Great video, loved it
Really spectacular stuff!
Thank you.
True is that the opponent with spear and shield 90% time win with Daneaxer.
That is because the dane axe, similar to the montante, spadone and other two handed cutting weapons was used to break formations in group combat, applying great force against unaware enemies (Which are focused on your companions) to kill them in one blow and open a gap in their formation. But struggles a lot in individual combat
@@Nitram7482 I know for what Daneaxe is i use it myself :D
Loved to see it :)
I cant wait to join Ullrs Hird next year
I would think that a quick, one hand spear jab would barely effect an opponent in mail.
Basically confirms what we know: in 1on1 spearman is usually dominating as long as he have space to move around and keep distance. Formation would probably be different.
I agree. The only flaw with blunt weapon testing is that a sharp edge has significantly more potential to dominate a wooden shaft. In this respect, all blunte weapon fencing distorts the reality of historical combat. Here is a comparison of how a sharp edge fares as opposed to a blunt: ua-cam.com/video/4a9LE1Nc_gk/v-deo.html Here is a video which shows how many axe blows a spear shaft might cope with before snapping: ua-cam.com/video/f6G7p_ppnxA/v-deo.htmlsi=5oT3KmcAQCu4Zw2c
@@swordandshield Interesting.
However I think major obstacle in reconstuction of basically any form of close combat is still human psychology. The level of fear and excitement combatants with sharp weapons must endured must have had massive influence over how this combat worked. Sharp pointy stick 20 cm from ones face is something entirely different when wielded by your sparring friend and actual enemy. Probably spear just because of its length had additional advantage in this respect (?), while those big axes were very specialized weapons demanding guts and good armour. The axed combatant here, without any helmet and face protection, would most probably be dispatched quite easily in real fight.
Scary without eye pro!! :O
Indeed. On the other hand, practitioners tend to become less precise the more protection is worn. Anyway, in this museum display context, the gear is confined to period kit. So without appropriate skill and mindset it would definitely be better to refrain from it.
You can see how dangerously easy is to end with that point impaled in your face - even by skilled folk. Now imagine 100 guys facing you... The spear was truly the backbone of mankind
Yo the battle brothers gameplay is looking great! 😂
It's good to know that in Denmark there are still people who preserve ancient traditions, instead of certain mistakes of post-modern society. Please keep posting!
Yes agree, people should preserve their culture, heritage and history!
This video makes me so damn anxious..... xD
But great work guys!
Pretty amazing to watch. This must require an extreme degree of motion controll for not to injure or kill your partners - even if the weapons here got blunted.
We do train a lot, and the mindset is important too. Thanks for the appreciation.
Fedt at se! Får mig til at tænke på om træning i gamle dage så sådan ud, nok ikke med så meget latter!
I think that more modern practitioners should devote more time and energy on figuring out what historical training might have looked like, instead of putting on excessive amounts of modern protection to create questionable forms of combat simulation. Anyway, one 13th century combat training advice is to not "drink until you get merry" - which to me suggests that they did have fun at training at times.
Very nice, I imagine in such a dueling scenario the spear user could have a better advantage in an overhand grip.
Mikkel does indeed change into this grip a couple of times. We believe that delivering a slide-thrust from there is indeed the most powerful and dangerous attack which is why it is seen in historical sources since antiquity and well into the late Middle Ages. However, it is also the most difficult to do in a safe manner. So this is the main reason why we find it difficult to apply in this kind of practice.
Good and serious training... fun times 😀
Absolutely.
Thanks for the video.
In real life, how much of Dane axe fighting was one on one and how much was part of groups fighting. I can more easily imagine one soldier along a shield line wielding a Dane axe to break up the other side's shield line. The soldier wielding the Dane axe would be protected by spearmen on his own side who were holding shields.
The man with dane axe is usually a mailed professional. Most spearmen would be quite lightly equipped, which changes things a fair bit.
Armour is a bigger factor than reach.
@@TheNEOverse That makes sense. Thanks!
What the @TheNEOverse said. On the 11th century the Dane axe-wielding so-called Housecarls were an Anglo-Saxon elite unit, fully armoured. In Byzantium, the so-called Varangian guard allegedly used the nordic two-handed axe. They were special forces too.
@@swordandshield Thank you both!
The spear man often retreats when pressed, but what if this were not possible if he were in a shield wall formation?
In shield wall the technique changes. You rely on your allies to cover you and you cover them in turn.
There would be like 3-5 spear tips(at least) to get past then which would not make it feasible to go in like that.
Shield walls are a completely different talk! ;o)
But, there's way more content about shield walls at YT than about single fighting. Free free to go and have a months long rabbit hole (at least)!
The man behind him spears you overhead.
@@TheSquidPro Years ago when they allowed dane axes at Neustadt Glewe field battle, they said: long axes changed the battlefield dramastically. You cann't allow yourself to defend you're neighbors as much as before, 'cause you have to defend your own front and top now with way more awareness.
That said, I guess: dane axe works better in a shield wall. Synergy effects benefit long axe fighters.
Where do you buy these axes for combat? Thanks sir. Beautiful video.
I actually do not know where the fighters in the video got their axes from. Thor's Forge by Tord Bergelin is known for making great Dane axes. I am sure you can track him down.
Is eye protection not necessary? Wouldn’t fancy that spear point coming at my eyes like that with me potentially moving towards it too, even with it being just a blunt training tip.
that's bloody fun that is
Yup.
Thank you for the video. Obviously, you enjoy historical reenactment! A chain mail like that costs a lot more then a shield, so the spear and shield guy is in a disadvantage in a one-on-one duel. Another matter, if the shield guys form up a shield wall.
You are welcome. But what makes you conclude that the spear and shield fighter is at a disadvantage in this scenario?
Great sparring. Given the simple effectiveness of the spear and shield, what do you think the role of the Dane axe was on the battlefield? It looks to me like one would have to be very aggressive at their own peril to be effective with the axe.
From what we can tell, two-handed axes were used by heavily armoured special forces, such as the Varangian guard, or the Huscarls. The latter are shown in action on the Bayeux Tapestry. I am not aware of any detailed sources. But you can find a video with an introduction to the research approach and a demo given at a conference at the Danish National Museum here: exciting-pioneer-6049.ck.page/68ce4e381d
The axe looks very short to me - but good fighting!
Thanks. Axe length is historically accurate, based on period depictions and surviving examples: sagy.vikingove.cz/en/two-handed-axes/
Yes, yes, but what of pointy stick versus roundboi?
Have you tested the right underhand grip in a close formation? I wonder if the axe would not be in a natural defence position at rest and it would be more difficult for the spearman to defend against the axe pushed towards the hand or face without room to manoeuvre?
There are so many aspects and variables in such a scenario that are impossible to address in a comment section. But measure is indeed key, as always. And the fact remains that the party with shorter weapons first has to get past spear points before they can do damage. Never an easy task, in particular when spears can come from multiple angles.
Fire Emblem Triangle System lied to me!
Axe? Axe! AAAAAAAAXE!
Love me some axe being used with finesse.
HAMMEEEERRR....oh f wrong place
@@VuurBarbaar A Dutch fire barbarian? Here? AT THE OTHER SIDE OF MY COMPUTER?
Het is waarschijnlijker dan je denkt.
Spearton vs Juggerknight whoever understands understands ;)
The fights seem like the shield almost does more for the axeman than it does for the spearmen. Particularly thinking about the moment at 1:30 where two handing the spear leads to immediate victory. But the lack of a solid lever grip looks like it makes handling parries from the axe pretty bad.
Dane Axe + Spear = Halberd
Bullet - is a distant spear
This is really well done. Unfortunately they can't safely use much of the power of a two handed axe, which against a single handed spear could make a big difference.
I am not so sure. There definitely is a great inherent risk of injury which calls for utmost axe control in practice which does slow down some actions. On the other hand, the two-hande axe is top heavy a weapon, and requires precise and controlled maneuvers to prevent exposing yourself. Plus, each hard blow on a shield means a clear pressure signal easy to respond to for an able opponent, and dedication to one action implies having less tactical flexibility during this action. This should be reserved for the moment when you have established control, and the decisivel blow is but the icing on the cake, in particular against a weapon moving so fast as the spear. Finally, with sharps one has to avoid getting caught in the shield. So utmost control is also called for when the opponent's safety is not a consideration.
@swordandshield Finesse and timing are always necessary. I'm not suggesting swinging an axe like a baseball bat. But the spear/shield has significant advantage of reach and cover. The only advantage the axe has is power, which I think could be used with control to move the obstacles while closing the distance. Of course, discussing it is much easier than doing it.
@@jeremiahglover6404 Plus, there is always room for improvement, no matter how long you train.
Must be extremely difficult to fight but not hurt the opponent
Clearly the spear is superior one-Vs-one. Makes you wonder how come those famous axe-wielder guards, like Housecarls or Varangians were so dominating! Most probably they were held in reserve to deal with any breakthrougs from the front ranks. I imagine those breaking through would no longer had their spears intact. Or even perhaps those guard units included shield-bearers, probably sword-fighters to punch through or/and disrupt the spear-fence; subsequently the battleaxes would be devastating in close quarters.
Surely the people with the axes have to hold back their speed and power for fear of injuring their opponent if it connects? Like you can't safely and delicately recreate a full speed axe swing.
Yes and no. There definitely is a great inherent risk of injury which calls for utmost control in practice. This does slow down some actions, swift changes in combos in particular. On the other hand, the two-hande axe is top heavy a weapon, and requires precise and controlled maneuvers to prevent exposing yourself. Plus, each hard blow on a shield means a clear pressure signal easy to respond to for an able opponent, and dedication to one action implies having less tactical flexibility during this action. This should be resereved for the moment when you have established control, and the decisivel blow is but the icing on the cake. Finally, with sharps one has to avoid getting caught in the shield. So utmost control is also called for when the opponent's safety is not a consideration. I would also like to point out that, in terms of speed, it is weapon speed that counts, not the speed at which combatants move. The economy of movement that can be seen with skilled martial artists is oftentimes deceiving because general audiences are used to watch the overall frame. But looking at the spear point alone, or the axe head, then I do not feel that they would move considerably faster in other training scenarios.
Спасибоьзв интересное!
I would like to see a collab with Hirdmen channel, they have done similar tests and experiments.
September 2024 at hervirke at trelleborg... it will happen 😊
@@hafniaanonymous7605. Those are very good news. I'll be waiting for the videos.
Our fellow martial artists and researchers from Hirdmenn are close friends indeed.
@@swordandshield . I figure as much, they often mention you.
he axed the wrong questions
Axe battler, use the shield to protect your torso and swing axe at the opponents feet and legs, then go for the killer blow.
I think they know what they're doing, mate.
@@clearmelody6252
Yes I am aware of that, but that is what I see what I would do for change the battle tactics and get the opponent off guard..😉
You cannot wield a dane axe while using a shield, genius, it's a two handed weapon...
Are they gonna fight or fuck...cant tell with sll the lil lovetaps
I've always wondered how someone trained in armor would treat a spear opponent. A spear is great with long range, and fast recovery but if you attack an armored location and your opponent advances on you then they have a great advantage. Context matters though, training, fighting in ranks, role, armor etc etc.
Good point. Based on previous tests, we considered spear shots to a hauberk as a valid, fight terminating hit in this form of training. Slices, however, would have no cutting ability. You can see Mikkel addressing this issue in the full 10 minute video: exciting-pioneer-6049.ck.page/e291efd8de This being said, while e.g. a thrust from a Viking sword has a lot less armour piercing capability, the impact of being stabbed would feel like a massive punch and could hardly be ignored. At any rate, armour offers protection when e.g. your skill has betrayed you. But it was never made to replace skill.
This is a great display of skill, however I have two questions about the choice of weapons and technique:
- why are the spears only handled in an underhand grip, when nearly all sources (admittedly we have few for that time period) point toward the use of an overhand grip?
- you're clearly sparring in a "duelling" context, but do we have any evidence of these weapons being used in single combat (or in very small skirmishes)? The spear with shield is common yes, but the axe seems to be very much a battlefield weapon... unless we take into account the possibility that the icelandic "bryntröll" is a dane-axe, in which case this is a number of skirmishes/ambushes where it is used.
Well for one its a training setting, and ment to be that... also broad axes are shown in civilian contekst on the tapestry.. and in some sence being a "professionals" weapon there is probably also use outside of battlefield.. some mentions in medieval texts and sagas... but again its written in the 1200's...
However it is definately a disadvantage going one on one against spear and shield with a broadaxe 😆 but a great challenge...
@@hafniaanonymous7605 No *fighting* is shown in a civilian context in the Bayeux Tapestry. They are carrying these axes around as status symbols. And the fighting is done in armour and in formation.
As for the sagas as I wrote it's unclear, there are axes yes, broadaxes are very rare, and in active use out of a pitched battle / armoured context event rarer.
I agree no civillian fighting is shown =)...
All im saying is that they will have trained with the axe... as do we... I 100% agree that the merits of the broadaxe is with armour and in the contekst of infantry combat on a specialized level
All good points. Mikkel does indeed change into the overam grip occasionally. I would like to see it more often too. The reason why it is difficult to use in this training context (that is without additional protective gear) is that it is much more difficult to safely apply it, in contrast to the underam grip (which is confirmed by period images too, by the way). This is presumably the reason why it was so widespread a ward: A slide-thrust delivered from the overarm ward is extremely efficient! As for evidence of Dane axe use in duelling contexts: No, none that I am aware of. One could argue that, with the Varangian Guard being equipped with two-handed axes, there might have been contexts other than battles. but that as highly conjectural. Anyway, the scarcity of sources would never keep us from exploring various training contexts for the simple reason that we can. And if only to confirm that it is extremely challenging for the axe fighter to confront a shielded spearman in duel.
I wonder if wielding the axe more like a guan dao would work better.
Regarding gripping the Dane axe: Emil explained their approach at a conference at the Danish National Museum. A video of their complete demo and discussion can be accessed here: exciting-pioneer-6049.ck.page/68ce4e381d
Love the clothing, looks very comfortable.
It is indeed.
Eow, those sounds like Spear-Danes
Lo! the Spear-Danes' glory through splendid achievements
The folk-kings' former fame we have heard of,
How princes displayed then their prowess-in-battle.
I can see a unit of angry vikings using dane axes breaking a unit of spearman, due to how tight spear formations are I think they can get close enough to kinda void a spear
Gad vide hvor det var optaget
Hedeby
1:22 is a great example of one of the benefits of centre grips
But gods does it give me the heebie jeebies to see sparing with no protection XD
Takes a skill and self control far beyond my own abilities, though I'm very much a newbie so thats not a suprise
Indeed, I consider myself fortunate to have disciplined, precise and skilled training partners like these gentlemen.
I wonder how the spear and shield would fare against an unarmed opponent. With two free hands to grab the spear. Obviously, the unarmed person would need a higher skill level but it might be an interesting matchup
unarmed = dead
Close to no chance of survival against a skilled spearman in such a scenario.
All comes down to armour. The Japanese Samurai main weapon was a spear. Landsknecht long spear, Napoleonic war's spears was the musket and bayonet. Now if you can get past the point then things get easier, but why spears are a formation weapon.
With weapons its speed or weight??? Just takes one hole for a person to leak, and have a bad day.
Vikings fight each other
Uhhh... no protection?
Both are wearing gamberson that's light duty armor and padded protective clothing, often worn underneath more armor. They also have large shields that off a lot of heavy level protection. Same with the chain mail, other than medium level protection against stabbing. It's a reenactment with period accurate protection and weapons.
@@CodyHomes With a thrusting weapon and no face protection is a disfigurement waiting to happen
In my experience, the more protection is worn, the less precise practitioners become. The pros and cons of protective gear have been discussed repeatedly in this video's comments, in case you are interested.
Without masks? Damn, daring
Thank you for your concern. This is but one training method of many, and like all training, the level of what can be done safely depends on the level of skill. The context of the training in this video is a museum demo. It would have looked silly with modern protective gear. Anyway, the subject of appropriate protection, and its pros and cons have been discussed in this video's comments repeatedly. So you can learn more if you are interested.
У копейщика слишком пассивная манера владения щитом! Щит даёт возможность блокировать оружие противника для быстрого укола в ногу с последующим отходом.
Well, I think he is doing pretty well, isn't he? And why launch a complex maneuver when you could just simply thrust at the face from a distance?
копьё так не держали
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A fantastic video, as are all of yours, Roland, but I must say that I don't like the use of central asian throatsinging here. It has nothing to do with norse culture, there is no throat singing in norse culture AFAIK, despite what hollywood is trying to sell us these last few years. And that's exactly the problem: This is using central asian throatsinging from real cultures like the Tuvans or Mongolians, or the people from the Altai mountains, and it's reframing a completely misunderstood cultural practice as something sinister, forboding, dangerous. Throatsinging gets used nowadays to signify evil danger and badassery. That's simply tasteless
We know nothing about what Scandinavian music of the Viking Age sounded like. The only contemporary source comes from Ibn Jakub's visit to Hedeby. He compares the Danish singing to the barking of dogs. The reason why I decided to use shamanic chants in this video is because Neil Price, in his ground-breaking work "The Viking Way", has convincingly pointed out the strong influences of shamanic rituals on Viking Age Scandinavian beliefs. So the choice of soundtrack here is based on what I consider appropriate in light of academic research. I appreciate your sensitivity to cultural aspects. Your final comment, however, devaluates your point and comment completely. Maybe next time first ask, then judge.
@@swordandshield I think it's problematic to jump from "we don't know" to "definitely shamanic" to "throatsinging from 6000km away".
Not all shamanic religions are related, in fact most are not related at all except in their predating of christianity and similar large, force-converting religions. And I have no idea why throatsinging and shamanism have to be linked this closely. They certainly coexist in parts of the world, and are certainly used together too, but acapella choirs aren't inherently christian just because they're used in churches too. Most Tuvan and Mongolian throatsinging describes nature, historical events or (most commonly by far) just beautiful horses.
I will admit I have not read "the Viking Way", but it is going onto my list, thanks.
The choice of soundtrack would be perfectly fine if you said "I just like throatsinging, deal with it" because indeed, as do I, but construing it as something historical to norse culture seems a bit much to me. We can disagree on this, I just wanted to offer my opinion as a long time fan.
And no, my final comment doesn't devalue anything, especially because it was aimed at the previously mentioned Hollywood, not your use of throatsinging. I found your use to be a bit unfortunate at worst, while Hollywood's use is regularly tasteless. Using throatsinging to signify evil badassery reminds me of movies portraying Norse people as dirty, stupid, fur wearing barbarians, which, I'm sure you would agree, is simply tasteless.
@@BoarhideGaming Understood. Thanks for clarfying. I am fine with ageeing to disagree on this one, but I do not consider it a big deal anyway. Thanks for your general interest in my work.
@@swordandshield It is not a big deal at all, had I anything more important to criticise about your videos, I would. But I don't!
@@BoarhideGaming I am delighted to read this. You just put a smile on my face!
Stupid thing to ise daneaxe against spear,better to run away or switch to sword. Every weapon has it's place and both spear and daneaxe wouldn't be used in duels, they're battlefield weapons.
Good thing this is only training.
A comment for the algorithm
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I hear you, but food for thought? Turns out that real "Vikings" were of Asian descent, and their singing was (at least once) described as a terrible din, like crows.
Dane axe gives u +100% Testosteron
OMG! Spear and shield so broken overpowered build, plz nerf!!! 😁
Mikkel is Just the better Fighter.....
hard to beat mighty pointy stick
Indeed.
Weapons length does make a significant difference, that Dane-axe seems to short for that kind of action.
Isn't the length of it supposed to be the height of a man, or its wielder?
No... atleast there is no evidence for souch a thing... on the tapestry the height is below armpits... the tallet shaft found is 120cm if I remember right... the tall axes is a reenactorism, made to suit sporting needs...
@@hafniaanonymous7605 . Well up to the height of the armpits is quite a significant length, on the average person that's about 66" inches.
The rest is just shoulders and neck, which can be chopped off!
Well the axe is my own 😆 and its made according to what is the current knowledge on what lenght is "acceptable"
@@hafniaanonymous7605 . Kool !
The stats of training weapons in this video are all based on research into original weaponry. Read more on authentic axe proportions here: sagy.vikingove.cz/en/two-handed-axes/
It seems like with this kind of short dane axe, u have to control the whole shaft, sacrificing abit of reach ofcourse, but u will have the leverage not only when u control the spear but also in close combat. I fight with a 180cm dane axe, which is prox 3cm longer than myself. But even so, I have to sacrifice reach for control. It also depends how heavy the dane axe is.
Our gear and training weapons are modeled on originals, their stats and handling qualities.
Historical depictions put them at about breast to chin hight so taller than yourself is strictly not historically accurate. It's useful for sure but this here is about historical kit.
@@fabianbockel5700 this does pose the question then, why?
Why not make it into a pole arm / longer weapon, its twohanded anyways, so it would only make sense to do that,
@@giftzwerg7345 Well, the Viking Age is history, and we go by historical data.
@@fabianbockel5700 indeed. And who are we to critisise the choices made by those who actually used these weapons? The Dane axe would likely perform better in different combat contexts than seen here. But as you say, we go by what little source material we have.
Wear some masks damn it and spar at full speed in protective gear.
Like they trained back then, right?
That's a good point that we often don't think about, and take into consideration. How would they have trained back then when protection equipment was not available?
A long time ago Otake Risuke sensei explained that engaging in any kind of contest type of training, took away from the reality and seriousness of actual combat. In which you could actually lose your life or end up injured.
He was always against it, and discourage anyone from doing it, you would not gain anything from it except knowing that someone won.
@@tatumergo3931 oh, very interesting. I think he is right. I often think about this too. Within only a few months of drilling with sharp blades I learned skills to protect my sword hand simply by positioning in a way that I failed to acquire in more of a decade of geared up practice. I also feel that the focus that practitioners instantly display when they train with sharp weapons is never to be seen in geared up fencing. Never ever. Another example: When I over-commit to a sword action, I occasionally cut my fingers on the edges of the metal shield edge clamps of my own Viking round shield. However, this only ever happens when fencing with blunt swords. Never with sharps.
Interesting, but it's like half speed sparing, not really pressure testing. More to work on form.
They don't look half-speed to me; they are holding back to not hit which is what makes them look slower.
I think the reason why it looks like it needs work on form is exactly because they're sparring at full speed.
If there was no pressure, the spear-user wouldn't be backpedaling all the time.
@@Kensuke0987 I meant they are practicing form doing this, not really sparing or pressure testing. It would be retarded to do it full speed sparing with pointy tipped spears and no face protection.
@@TheVigilante2000 ah i see. i think they're more like they're just having fun. they seem to be all dressed up at a particular place all for the immersion.
i'm no expert martial artist, but not being able to follow through with your cuts and thrusts probably wouldn't be a good way to practice form? they are at least trying techniques and testing theory, which is what sparring is all about after all.
The axe blows might be more vicious and combos more fluent, and the spear thrusts would not be held back in order to kill one another. But the overall speed could hardly increase, in particular when weapons were sharp. Because that is when you need all the discipline and precision to not get hit, and not get stuck. Heavy protection and face masks do have their merits in training (we do use them too), but they create other artefacts. Usually, precision and discipline go out the window when the heavy gear comes in ...
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I'll take spear and shield!
Without helmets, face protection, armour, gloves, padded weapons so you can strike full force etc., it is very difficult for me to see how any of this is translatable to a real fight..
Fully agree, but it does at least allow for some testing and experimentation of things like grips, footwork, lines of attack and defence, etc. Would love to see this re-done with full fencing gear, although blunted weapons will always result in some game-ifying.
What makes you believe that what is done with helmets, face protection, armour, gloves, padded weapons has relevance for research into historical combat?
Historically a large percentage of the fighters wouldn’t have had the large amount of protection that a HEMA fighter has, because of this protection the HEMA fighter is willing to risk taking a hit that a historical fighter would never be willing to take in order to score his own hit on the opponent. Fighting back then was life or death almost all the time they couldn’t even risk training injuries because of the high likelihood of infection leading to death.
@@keithpark2044 i know, and i agree. however they did go full force when they fought. without adequate protection you can't go full force, like you can in fx boxing, mma or wrestling. So it still becomes very difficult to understand how a real fight would turn out..
@@swordandshield it has relevance in the sense that they would try and go for harder hits, and closer contact. in the clip it's a lot of feeling out, being very careful etc. i've heard there are viking clubs in Denmark where they fight with full power/impact, but where strikes to the head aren't allowed, so as to achieve a balance between the two.