How Can Theists Claim To Know? - Christopher Hitchens
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- The entire debate:
www.vimeo.com/1...
The Persian poet, mathematician and philosopher that he talks about is Omar Khayyám
en.wikipedia.or...
And do you think that unto such as you,
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew,
God gave the secret, and denied it me?-
Well, well, what matters it! believe that too.
What Hitchens pointed out here is very crucial. It seems to always escape believers : God never speaks himself. It's always people who speak and claim that God told them to relay such and such. This applies to the Bible or any book that claims divine origin. Worse, those prophets never care to demonstrate how they know it's God that talked to them. (And You'd think the most powerful being in the universe would know how to communicate with his own creation without mediation and ambiguity...).
+MrSidney9 FUCKING THIS
+MrSidney9 I agree..you would think that an omnipotent God who had such an important message for humanity, the creator of the complex DNA molecule, wouldn't stoop down and to use "invisibility" and a "text book" to demonstrate his reality? Why hide? ITS A JOKE FOLKS ;) (evolve or die)
anthony spencer Yeah. If a God exists, he must invests more active energy into hiding than in anything else. It would be TRIVIALLY easy for a god to reveal himself to all of us in a way that we couldn't but (at the very least ) acknowledge his existence. Nope, he won't don't it; yet hell awaits, hell us, hell awaits our children, and their children.
I can't believe I used to believe this stuff.
MrSidney9
Agreed my friend..education is the enemy of faith ;)
Jesus spoke.
I love how Hitch quoted Khayyam, if you haven't read his poetry, you're missing out. He was a gift to humanity and his ideology at his time is nothing short of pure greatness.
Thanks for saying this. I know almost nothing about ancient Persia, but I'm eager to learn.
@@squeet6831 you won’t regret reading Khayyam’s poetry, it’s magnificent
Khayyam lived in Islamic era of Persia. Little is known of Ancient Persia thanks to Alexander burning down Persepolis and it's library down to ashes. But there were many great scientists and philosophers in the islamic era. Such as Kayyam, Rumi, Ferdowsi, Hafez, and many more.
But khayyam is significant for another reason. To this day, we Iranian and Afghans and Tajiks, are using the calendar he invented decades ago, which stayes the most accurate calendar used on the planet (yes even more accurate that Georgian Calendar)
Khayam was into going around criticizing people (while usually being drunk)
in other words, just like Hitchens
LOL birds of a feather@@T3hSteamcrusher
My way of stating Hitch's idea (Omar Kyaam):
If your god existed I would not need you to tell me your god existed! (I wish I had come up with that!)
Thank you god for making me an atheist.
I so miss Hitch
Ah, we're all better off without that preposterous prick.
@@77Night77Shade77 No, it's only the closed minded theists who are better off without him.
@@77Night77Shade77 You just can't argue his points, so you resort to this? Tsk tsk...cheap shot by a feeble mind.
Hey will still have his awesomeness in video form at least❤
@@77Night77Shade77 aw did he crush your fantasy? 😂
If God really existed, he would be entirely capable of revealing his presence to everyone on planet Earth. He wouldn't need to rely on religious scriptures to prove his existence.
God is Supernatural. Why should you expect physical eyes to see him.
Do you claim that you have a mind? If so, can you see physically?
@@prophettoatheists8057 Because who created the physical eyes and then hid himself from them, if he even exists at all? The Christian god is considered to be omnipotent, meaning all-powerful. Therefore he would necessarily have the power and ability to do as Suraj said: "he would be entirely capable of revealing his presence to everyone on planet Earth" without religious scriptures being necessary. Suraj's comment was about god's abilities and capabilities. Your response did not dispute this point.
Believers can make up all kinds of reasons why their god does not do this. But the point still holds true; their god IS capable of doing this without religious scriptures being NECESSARY.
@@prophettoatheists8057 To add to Dani's point. Please tell me one single piece of information about or from your supernatural deity that is NOT human at the point of delivery. Revelation? Visions? Prayer? Scripture? All human at the point of delivery.
If, as Suraj suggests, your God is "entirely capable of revealing his presence to everyone on planet Earth" then WTF doesn't he?
Your seeing God is a red herring. What I want to see from her is the effects of a proper bit of manifesting - good Old Testament smiting will do, but I'm not insisting. Any self-respecting supernatural entity should be capable of this but, so far, zilch! All claims of such "miraculous" activity are mediated via biased humans.
BTW Isn't it strange how Protestants never report visions of the BVM, while Catholics so seldom tell of the Spirit speaking in their hearts, and non-believers report neither BVM or Spirit. Makes you think religion is a human invention.
@@alanthompson8515 Actually, It is obvious. the information contained in DNA in all organisms is coding that had to originate from a supernatural source.
ALL CODING has its origin from an intelligent source. Since a man did not exist when the first organism was made, then man could not have done it.
All claims of abiogenesis have failed.
Nature does not code. It doesn't have intelligence./
@@prophettoatheists8057 Oh dear. "Obvious" is it? It is clear to me (though never "obvious") that you have ignored both my challenge and my question. WTF has DNA to do with it? Are you trying to add "Science" to my list of how we obtain information? If so, well done, but again it is NOT supernatural - by definition.
Here's another challenge: Please find me anyone who DOES believe that man made "the first organism". What a strange world you inhabit to even suggest such a lunacy.
Re: your proposed (but not "obvious) "supernatural source". Conjecture without evidence, of course, but even if it existed and actually was the source of life, then you have still to account for the gap between this "may the Force be with you" type of thing and a theistic deity. There is, for example, the problem of why any omnipotent entity should chose such a cruel and wasteful method. Also, assuming that humankind is the pinnacle of and reason for Creation, why said entity took so long to get to the point. Well?
Re: "ALL CODING has an intelligent source". Another belief statement. For anyone to state this in the affirmative they would have to do a couple of things: 1) prove the existence of said god/supernatural power and 2) prove that said god/supernatural power is the one responsible and not merely taking credit for someone else’s work.
Well?
As mentioned above, your "intelligent source" remains a possibility. Possibility versus Probability. Is it possible, what you claim above? Yes, it is possible. Is it probable? No, not really. It is certainly NOT "obvious".
I love Dawkins and Hitchens both. I like Dawkins kindly approach, he seems such a nice fellow, but I just love the way Hitchens lays waste to ignoramuses like this.
Disagree! Dawkins is nasty, Hitchens was always devastatingly polite!
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well-what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm, Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám
what version is that?
@@jhonclarkcaballero237 Richard Le Gallienne is the translators name.
Great Hitchens! Fortunately we had his memory recorded.
The word that comes to mind to describe Hitch's opponent here is "oily." He makes this debate hard to listen to from his demeanor alone, never mind the hollowness of his arguments. I haven't heard from him anywhere but in this one appearance, possibly because even his colleagues get a queasy feeling around him.
You know that his colleagues get queasy around him? You've asked them then. It sounds like you oppose his assertions.
Dustin Zilbauer I said possibly. Learn to read.
Jack Wright Yet another insult. I think we've got a Christian here.
Dustin Zilbauer You do realize I'm talking about Hitch's *opponent* here, don't you? I oppose the *christer's* opinions, not Hitch's, yet you seem to think I'm a christian. You really can't read, can you?
And how is it an insult to correct your original misunderstanding? Talk about thin-skinned! That either proves you're a typically butt-hurt christian or a very inept troll. In either case, you're a waste of time.
I could listen to Hitchens all day, I never tire of him.
All theists must be exposed.
"You MUST fear the lord!"
Lord Voldemort?
I'm pragmatically certain that your God probably doesn't exist; but I still fear him, because I've read the bible, and find him to be an exponentially evil character.
He's so capricious, and malevolent that he makes the devil character seem like a saint.
Perhaps you should read the bible, and maybe you should read other books too.
How about DIRECT evidence and proof? Is that so crazy? SHOW THIS GOD TO ME!
They never have one...Faith that's all they got..
If someone provided direct evidence for the existence of God, they would cause a scientific revolution and win a Nobel Prize. But I don't think that is ever going to happen.
Its also a big advantage for the believers that their god never shows himself to us, because untill now they can fabricate and make up all sorts of info while talking to you.
You're looking at it the wrong way, try again
he's so brilliant... I don't always agree with him, but even in those times, he's so well spoken.
BTW, he's spot on truth right here :)
Believers are very interesting, it's in the word itself, belief. Faith. That's it. There's absolutely no way to have a scholarly arguments about God existing. A teacher of mine once simply told some believer that "If you cannot prove it, do not claim it as real."
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter."
-Adolf Hitler
Well said, I want to put this on a pamphlet and hand it out to people.
The world is a much sadder place without Mr Hitchens in it. A great mind, departed. If the absence of an afterlife doesn't kick you into action today, then what will?
Christopher hitchens is who we need right now , to go on tv and not be afraid to talk fscts
We should ALL be skeptical of ANY religion that requires the testimony of other HUMAN BEINGS in order to spread its word.
@imermiguel
I was attempting to point out that whether the universe is or is not "designed" doesnt depend on whether it makes sense to you. If the evidence doesnt suggest a designer, which it doesnt, then that's the logical thing to believe.. regardless of whether you cant conceive of it being true or not.
Theists, as long as their beliefs hold power over them, will be forever trapped in a world that relies on a very powerful belief system that is singularly driven by 'faith', blindly or otherwise. Theists don't need to see their god or need to have been present at any 'miracles' or 'holy events' that allegedly occured, they only need to believe. Anyone who questions their belief is a threat and activates a very powerful defense system. Their belief allows them to defend, by justifying any or all parts of their beliefs when threatened. It is not our right to say they are wrong, however, it is our right to live our lives free from their restricted view of life and resist any pressures from theist zealots to conform to their ideals and practices. Thankfully we still have the freedom to make choices for living life the way we see fit. Christopher Hitchens in his dialogues espouses that freedom with unerring clarity. Long may his words of wisdom reverberate throughout the world for the existence of this planet educating human beings on what the meaning of free choice in this instance really means.
I'm gonna quote a wiki article here: "The World Health Organization (WHO; 2007), the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS; 2007), and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC; 2008) state that evidence indicates male circumcision significantly reduces the risk of HIV acquisition by men during penile-vaginal sex, but also state that circumcision only provides minimal protection and should not replace other interventions to prevent transmission of HIV"
And you wonder why I am not keen.
You are awesome Mr.Hitchens.
Richard Le Gallienne is the translator’s name Hitch is referring to.
@KeyboredNinja Hitchens' arguments, and those of the new atheists, are far more sophisticated than "I don't like religion". They pioneering the radical new view that religion is not just a "personal opinion" that we can all be neutral about, but a poison on the world that does objective harm to us. Hitchens in particular has advanced this with admirable eloquence and sophistication, which is why even his foes concede that he forces the religious to examine their beliefs.
I recommend everyone read Omar Khayyam's poetry, it's fascinating, and to Muslims Christians and Jews, start with elementary biology
I can't believe with as little as we know, which is enough, that this debate still goes on. Ego of humans is why the ignorant and helpless still believe it. We surely are here for a reason? Lol. No we are not. We are just here. Take advantage of that time while you have or waste it on fairy tales that make you feel better. The choice is yours
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
-Adolf Hitler
"And has to come again" lol 😂
Where in the Bible does it say that Christ's "sacrifice of atonement is retroactive to everybody who lived before him" or anything of the sort? Anyone? Bueller?
it is the self appointed reps who are the real issue.
It's unfortunate that Hitchens doesn't have a scientific background, this guy's claims would be even easier to refute (if you see the whole debate)
Although, I don't think Hitchens needs it, He's just that awesome.
I read the rubaiyat thanks to hitch, great recommendation
The "professional christian" is no match for Mr. Hitchens.
Hitchens = Clarity
I'm glad you enjoy it!
@imermiguel
If you think the universe doesnt make sense without some kind of designer, that says more about your lack of imagination than it proves anything about the universe. The universe doesnt need your understanding to exist. Whether it does or does not make sense to you is irrelevant.
Exposing the pathological lies of religion and Christianity in particular. Hitchens was such a hero. The world needs more of him.
According to theists, God's existence is based on democracy. They often claim a super-majority for their beliefs means that God exists.
I suppose the answer is. It's a required reaction or claim for a person extolling faith. The believer signs on to the premise that their belief is equal to evidence. I suppose it's a bit like pestering a guard at Buckingham Palace seeking to get a reaction. It's his job to remain motionless and stalwart in his duty.
well the idea with science is that the current models depict the world as accurately as possible given the current data. i think scientists often go out of their way to encourage people to see their models as the closest thing possible to the truth instead of the actual truth so that people continue to feel that scientific drive to increase our understanding and improve our models. i agree, though, that faith, as opposed to science/reason, has the capacity to cause pointless violence.
The diff b/w a theist and atheist is that ultimately the first has nothing to lose and everything to gain, while the last has everything to lose and nothing to gain.
That's not accurate though. If there is nothing to lose, there is no risk at stake for an atheist. The same is true if you're a theist that believes in the wrong deity. You think of it like heads or tails, like there is one wrong answer and one right answer, when really its a roulette board of choices. Being a theist doesn't mean you picked the right number, 13 could be the winning number but maybe picked 15. You have everything to lose by not being absolutely and undeniably sure.
+misha17422 Not true. If you have a faith and dedicate your life to god and it turns out the atheists are right then you have wasted the only time you will ever have.
@@harris34567 it isn’t necessarily a waste. The idea of God gives meaning and happiness to people. Giving donations and food to the homeless in your church is nothing close to a waste.
If it was a probability argument then considering the 30,000+ gods that no one believes in, what is the probability that this one is just another statistic?
I'm glad you like it!
"They wont go to the Chinese who can already read"
Faith in god is really just faith in the honesty of people, and when we see how many mutually exclusive belief systems exist, and how this fact demonstrates that humans are in the business of making untrue claims, I think this faith starts to break down.
You are absolutely right, and make some great points. I am looking at this a little too extreme. But it's hard not to. Because so many things in this world are extreme. So many things we are doing wrong as a species. So many things we claim as certainties, when, in fact, they are based upon our faith. Faith does NOT equal fact. And far too often do we fight wars over faith. Both sides so certain they are right......but neither of them are. My point is: don't believe everything you hear.
You are absolutely right, my friend. As hard as it is to accept. Truth is moot. Because the truth changes. Constantly. What we consider scientific FACT right now, could easily be disproved a hundred years from now. All those "certainties" we rely on, and that so many people have written books about.....will all be laughed at in the future. Hell, we still don't even know everything about water! We're learning new things about its properties every day. And life depends on it to exist.
What the religious call "evidence" is merely assertion.
Claiming that the existence of reality and consciousness prove the existence of God is begging the question, it already assumes that the Christian god did in fact create reality and consciousness rather than attempting to argue for it.
circumcision from the point of the view of cleanliness and medical reasons is a good idea. It's been shown to reduce the transference of various STDs including AIDs and if that isn't a benefit I don't know what is. Being circumcised for those reasons has nothing to do with any god and I would not consider it ironic, in fact I'd consider it making him a better person because he actually has a valid reason for doing it other than just "god said so"
I've heard Hitch make the "and in what position" point many times and I've never exactly understood it. I take it there's a spot in the bible or in some other religious text or what have you that states some kind of rule regarding missionary position as the only acceptable form of intercourse. Does anyone know exactly what he's referring to here? Thanks in advance.
@TubularTNT
I think you should concentrate on the point rather than assuming things about the person who made it.
The point was: Female Genital Circumcision is not apart of Islam. It's a cultural custom from certain parts of Africa.
"Certainly we don't have to discuss these matters with the Jews, the most modern inventors of this cultural perfume. Their whole existence is an embodied protest against the aesthetics of the Lord's image."
-Adolf Hitler
@easyas314 I feel the same way. Christopher is a logical and intelligent thinker. Let's wish him better so he can be with us for a long time.
It's said to be hygenic regardless of the religous overtone. I've always thought that maybe back when the Jews were creating their holy books they might have known it was hygenic to do it. Just say God wants you to do it, and they did it. Just guessing though.
is knowledge a property of the observer or a property of the object?
Rated and a cheers.
Keep 'm coming!
Hitch is the MAN!
@lumburgapalooza yes, christopher actually says "this world is all there is" which is a claim to knowledge.
@scullysedge That logic fails on several points. 1.It presumes that god has only 1 state of emotion and must comply to that emotion. It also presumes simply becasue of that emotion there is only 1 possible reaction that god must take. 2. your logic does not see death as a natural event, which it is. 3. God would not have written out the 10 ten commandents for men, instead he would have enforced it. Now I have an even bigger question for you. Why don't you go out and try to stop these events?
Rejecting faith-only based claims is not a belief system. We condem all others who think everyone should live by their filthy religious beliefs. We espouse evidence and reason to win our agenda. We laugh at the weak, fear-driven hateful and intellectually dishonest scum unable to face reality. Fear and ignorance breeds religion which creates hate so we happily shine the light of knowledge and reason upon it. We find meaning and happiness from within, not from what someone else says we must.
That guy does not understand the meaning of the word "proof"!
There is no proof on either side of the argument. Only supposition, logic and deduction. This is why the believers call it faith.
We are told an all-knowing God designed the incredible complexities of life, yet was so unimaginative & primitive it could only resolve issues by killing people. It is offensive and disturbing how Christians worship such an abusive entity that all reasonable, rational people know has zero evidence of existence.
Christopher Hitchens quoting Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám is so pertinent in this program. “And do you think that unto such as you. A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew, God gave a secret, and denied it me? Well, well-what matters it? Believe that, too!”
Brilliant. Simply Brilliant. What an intelligent, erudite man Mr Hitchens was, and who would now be, if there were any justice, or greater Plan, a true god's God. His mind and plain speaking are sorely missed. What would he make of yer new man in Rome now, Francis...? Requiescat in pacem, Mr H.
You Need a very good attention to follow the chain of thought of hitchens. I don't think Frank understood half of what hitchens said.
Are you mad, because someone made a solid observation and it conflicts with your beliefs?
RIP Christopher
BTW, what's going on with his face in this video? It looks like someone threw scalding water at his face or something. The other guy is red too, so I guess it's a lighting thing, but it's evenly distributed on him, whereas on Hitchens, it looks absolutely ghastly, like a second or third degree burn.
There's Jesus walking down the road alone. Moses and Elishah appeared, had a conversation then were never seen again. Who told THIS story? (There were no witnesses.)
Well not all of us "fear the lord" sadly. Which it says so much in the bible. You MUST fear the lord!
@Airlightf I have just read the first six pages of comments and although you say Atheism makes you hate everything, there only one person making comments that threaten others, use fool language and attack everyone else around them. That person is you - the Christian.
Another Hitchslap, he makes me proud to be British. Sorry religious people, but as science progresses, the idea of Gods and Creators get smaller and smaller. Believe in yourself, not a myth.
(2) this puzzle completes itself regardless if you are a Jew, Christian, Muslim they all point to one god . Then theirs the scientific community that gets ignored if it does not take a atheist view, it's insane at the amount of scientists who are never spoken about because of the work they do does not align with the mainstream agenda, keep hating on God atheists the more you hate the stronger he gets!
@patrickledford420 As though I cared:" Atheists, 3 The pride of your heart has deceived you, you who live in the clefts of the rocks [a] and make your home on the heights, you who say to yourself, 'Who can bring me down to the ground?'
4 Though you soar like the eagle and make your nest among the stars, from there I will bring you down," declares the LORD.
Ignorance must be blitz because the more I see people psychologically intellectualize belief in one of the many thousands of the gods both past and present despite present day knowledge and hindsight, I weep for human kind.
@toasted2009 well not all of us can "think for ourselves" sadly. you MUST think for yourself!
But very only specific people do the hypocritical and claim that someone/something with greater authority told him to and does not get locked up for treatment, put in jail or sentenced to death, instead they are praised as someone of great standing in the society. Circumcision in Hitchen's eyes is not about mistakes, it is about sanctioning what he believe is barbarism being protected by a "big brother". I am circumcised and i am sure its done me no harm.. however does not mean it was right:))
The way Christopher skipped over the ontological argument took my breath away.
Hitchslapage.
@hempartist420
"you're still making a positive claim that objective morals exist"
For dichotomies (i.e. p or q), p is logically equivalent to ~q. With ethics, for example, either morality is objective or subjective. Therefore, "objective morality" is logically equivalent to "not subjective morality". Similarly, either theism is true or atheism is true. An A-theist is one who denies the theistic claim, but couldn't I just retort that I am an A-Atheist, that is, that I deny the Atheistic...
If it does though it would be damn helpful in some places, africa for instance. anyway, if you've ever not washed behind there because you've been unable to, no access to washing facilities for instance, you'll know it can get pretty smelly and could easily harbour many unpleasant things. If it's not there, it can't do that, right?
It costs nothing to believe but its costs everything not to
Costs nothing. Are you kidding
he did take a minute to ask tho.
@patrick112590
Regarding why I haven't "done so", funny you should ask. I'm in the beginnings of a song writing process that is the better part of a decade in the making. Some interesting sounds...flowing like a river out of me.
But there's no proselytizing involved. No grand standing. No calling people names. Not proclaiming anyone else ignorant, nor myself superior...rather, we (myself and the audience) meet at the level of the heart to affirm and celebrate life, not condemn it.
i dont think it's fair to imply that scientific models of the world change quite as much as you're suggesting. you don't laugh at yourself for having crawled on your knees as a child. that's because, although it wasn't running, it was still moving your body in the right direction.
@scullysedge You have not countered my previous points. All you have done is re-iterated the points I already countered.
Yea, i always notice that too. Says Deist instead of Theist:p But we all knew what he meant! Even the Hitch is not infallible.
And his argument is still great.
Priest 1: You getting any?
Priest 2: No
Priest 1: Me Either
Priest 2: What if... We sacrifice a Virgin every so often?
"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."
-Adolf Hitler
His complexion leads me to think he was going through his cancer treatment at this time. Can anyone confirm?
This debate was in 2008. Hitchens was diagnosed with advanced oesophageal cancer in June of 2010. Perhaps his illness at this point was starting to show outwardly before he knew what was happening inside.
@Uberlaser
"claims it's OK to have Slaves"
It claims that it is OK, or it allows it? There is a difference. For example, the OT law allowed people to divorce. However, when the Pharisees asked Christ about this, he commented that divorce was allowed, but was still against God's nature. Furthermore, the OT law requires slaves to be treated humanely, and even freed after a certain time. For some people, slavery was the only way they could make a living. For more information, do some more...
@Airlightf Why do you need an answer to that? Why are people so deathly afraid of a mystery? And why does a question mark have to lead to a god? I don't know how everything came into existence, and it really doesn't matter. Not that its not an interesting question, but why waste time and energy stressing over whether it happened this way or that?
He ends that beautifully.
Why doesn't the believer simply prove that their god exists? Prove that every word of their holy book is true. Prove that every rule that their holy book says to live by came directly from their god. Or better yet, ask your god to come and tell us directly. Meanwhile we will sit back and wait. Not worrying at all about the things that frighten you.
Hey, Daniel: First, allow me to wish you a Happy New Year!
Now then, you ask for proof of Jesus Christ / The God of the Bible (who, BTW, is the one and only Almighty God). You want proof that the Bible is true.
Please watch and share my four brief videos in which I present examples of scientific facts contained in the Bible; facts that the writers thousands of years ago could not have known about without divine knowledge given to them by God.
Then let me know what you think. Thanks, and take care.
He isn't saying any better, he is saying that theists can't prove their claims. He is making a statement about theists and their arguments, not that they are wrong. Just simply that they can't prove it.
That's all.
Besides, agnostic and atheist are two different beliefs. One believes in the possibility, the other believes in nothing at all.
Before you go bashing other peoples beliefs, because they don't mix with your own, maybe you should know what the hell you are talking about first.
What the hell is with this "Text Enhance"?
@CymroGoch You don't? Really? So, why do you teach it in schools as fact if you don't know for sure?
All of the "statistics" arguments he offers could never alone demonstrate anything other than deism; the gap between deism and a specific interpretation of theism is quite the leap. Otherwise, *any* faith could say, "Look around you at creation; His handiwork is evident."
@cwross1976 honest was your keyword there, and theists CAN claim knowledge (fallaciously) and still be honest. I know a girl who thinks she KNOWS Christianity is real. She thinks she saw a being of light hugging someone, who she then approached and explained her vision to, and the pedestrian said "wow, I felt like I needed a hug!". She honestly thinks that proves the bible true, wrong as she is. (a large portion of pedestrians would say they feel like they need a hug anyway, hallucinations, etc)
.I think it may also prove helpful to some of the viewers here to try to evaluate many of the more strident claims of the anti-theist critique ("brights") from a ideological/ metaphysics perspective. Check out the recent article by Jackson Lears in the May 16, 2011 issue of the The Nation entitled "Same Old New Atheism" .The article offers a compelling analysis of Sam Harris' works. Consideration is given to general atheistic social perspectives