Important note: Recon marines should be line, I misclicked the colour, and I do apologise. Oh, and edit, it doesn't change the chart as I didn't categorise them with line as a major pre-requisite. I'll also do a follow up to this in the next day or two just to follow up any mistakes or missed points, clarify etc.
@@Zabzim I did?! Ok, well Death Guard is easy to summarise, their principle buffs revolve around being able to move and fire, which doesn't benefit many of their units, but move and fire Fury of the Legion is very very powerful, and it's nice to be able to move the snipers with no penalty, hence they are the most favoured units. Combine this with no true melee buffs without building the whole army into it which makes Despoilers and Assaults into nothing special.
@theOuterCircle Alpha Legion Inductii - is the rule locked to the first turn of the game or the first turn the Inductii enter the game (i.e. held in reserve, enter turn two/three/whatever and are untargetable in the turn they enter?).
Might as well nerf some more under dogs while we're at it. Salamanders and Raven Guard are in the same boat, no characters, the bare minimum of playable units so technically they're both considered playable factions JK LoL
That's precisely what they did to guard during 9th edition. They had a 30% win rate. People started spamming death corps riders as the only viable unit. Still 30% win rate. GW see this, and instead of buffing the rest of the army to make more viable options and increase the win rate of the faction, they give a 50% points increase to the death corps units. Leaving absolutely nothing viable to play.
The IF trait should not apply to sniper weapons. It's incredibly annoying to me that they are better at sniping than the Raven Guard, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion.
I would add that under Hammer of Olympia. Iron Warriors Tactical marines are excellent. As if they are equipped with Shrapnel Bolters/Pistols, they fire an extra shot every time they shoot and are re-rolling 1s. Also Assault marines massively benefit from the IronFire ROW. As they have the mobility to increase your likelihood of generating IronFire counters and benefit from the stubborn being close combat orientated troops.
Yes, but that's very true but it is also losing sight of the video and specialising into a discipline, like the way pride changes Indomitus into line troops. If we are going to do that, a great many things change, like Stone Gauntlet Imperial Fists, no other troops required, or White Scars running bike spam.
Yeh but the lost range is quite significant. You're going to be shooting about the same amount on average because there are going to be more times where you're out of range.
Great video as usual. As someone now working on a Night Lords army, I hadn't even considered the fact that they Assault Marines were bulky for the outnumbering. Now to print some assault marines...
Yeah, about that….. I actually skipped by and wrote it under the pinned post. I recorded the entire video in one take with no script and only a few notes for the inductii, so had to make a mistake somewhere!
Just saw this after finishing my Assault marines and in general I agree playing blood angels the only time I actually got some use out of Tactical support was plasma annoying terminators so my stronger units can move in and rip them apart.
I don't are what you or anybody else says, the Night Lords Inductii are amazing. They should(TM) work well, but it's not about that. It's about having the absolute most thematic, most hilarious troop unit in all of 30k. The only sad thing is that you cannot give them power axes and laugh your ass off while you decapitate your enemy and/or your own sarge at I10.
If you only think about damage output, the yeah, the iron hands bonus is not very good, but their other bonus helps immensely against range weaponry. So tacticals and breachers that don't die even from S8 guns become very good for the legion. Perhaps even more than Dark Angels.
First of all great video with a lot of useful information! In my opinion as a Dark Angels player, recon and scouts should be also excellent for DA. Wings still work fine for them. If you use both units as shock troops, just infiltrating them with bolters +1 to hit is still great (I know, maybe a stupid idea for this squad but hey! I'm playing mostly against heavy infiltrating AL ;-) ). And if we are talking about nemesis bolters that will snipe the characters, the firewing and +1 to wound is great.
I don't rate the +1 to wound as much on them for the simple fact that the Nemesis don't get a boost on the rending roll which is the part that matters. If the +1 to hit with boltguns translated to nemesis boltguns, that would make it amazing tho!
Iron warrior breachers deserve to have some kind of buff, and its stupid that their Inductii dont have the option of some kind of heavy weapon like the IF ones
Hmm, good timing on this video - I've got a Blood Angels army but they're currently largely unpainted - mainly just primed - and I was debating since I have a fair few points-worth doing a traitor legion too - I quite liked Alpha Legion but wasn't sure what units to paint what style. What I do have is a lot of support squad guys, recon marines, scouts (because well, you can't do sniper scouts in 40k anymore so I guess my models are now 30k ones), and I really fancied modelling some Breachers. On first glance they all seem like poor choices for Blood Angels but pretty good ones for Alpha Legion. Be interesting to see charts like this for vehicles and dreadnoughts etc. And obviously elites although that seems a little messier due to all the legion specific units.
@@jamesespinosa690 yeah admittedly I did have one recon squad that was shotguns and melta bombs. I don't know if that's good or not but I thought it was cool. Plus I guess leaning entirely into your army buffs can probably leave you exposed elsewhere.
@@sonicwingnut Shotguns really are fucking cool!! But I was actually suggesting you go for basic Bolter boys, or even better, a plain old CC weapon + Bolt Pistol load out!! I convinced my best friend to try them with his World Eaters (who are even better because of the free chain axes) and let me tell you, I don't think I've ever paid so badly for one of my own suggestions!! Im pretty sure twice now he's had them outflank onto the board, behind me vehicles, and he's bolt pistoled them to death. And I think one of those times it was my mother fucking tank commander he popped!!! We didn't get enough time to finish those games out, but they would have gone on a murder rampage in my back lines if we did. When you really put your head to it, you can find a TON of sweet little combo's with these units you would never have given the time of day otherwise!!!
It is pretty telling that the only inductii that loses fury of the legion and doesn't suck is the dark angels one which are upgrading their bolters free anyway. They might work if you kept fury of the legion. The iron hands downside is mimal (1 lost marine in a 6 turn game on average), the Thousand sons one might work if you could have breaching 6+ on a fotl attack and the ultramarines might be as useful as the fists who of course don't lose fotl whilst getting pinning heavy bolters ....
I think the Ultramarine Legion Inductii are not bad. Having a line unit pop out of a rhino/ drop pod with meltas hitting on 2s (legion trait buffed from the rhino/ drop pod firing at the same target) is pretty sweet. Getting inexorable makes them stick on those mid-field objectives better than stock tacticals with no additional support. The loss of artificer armor on the sergeant and the squad capped at 10 is an issue, but I think it's worth it. Its how I justify taking some MkVI marines anyway, they are perfect for inductii 😅
The only reason they go yellow and not green on the chart is despite the better morale, they have no apothecary and the small squad size means less staying power and less casualties taken to trigger that morale test vs the normal tacticals. If they had a points reduction I'd probably move them up a slot tho.
I play iron hands and having a good assualt squad to reinforce my tactical marines as payed of more than it has not. It's always better to charge than get charged as the saying goes.
You forgot to mention Word Bearers' Dark Channeling to make your squads unbreakable - this works great with big blocks of Despoilers whereby you can jam up the mid-board and your opponent cannot make them flee and/or sweep them, instead having to kill (or make you remove as casualties from morale) every single model!
Important note: Recon marines should be line, I misclicked the colour, and I do apologise. Oh, and edit, it doesn't change the chart as I didn't categorise them with line as a major pre-requisite. I'll also do a follow up to this in the next day or two just to follow up any mistakes or missed points, clarify etc.
You also completely missed out talking about death guard. You skipped from ultramarines to thousand sons.
@@Zabzim I did?! Ok, well Death Guard is easy to summarise, their principle buffs revolve around being able to move and fire, which doesn't benefit many of their units, but move and fire Fury of the Legion is very very powerful, and it's nice to be able to move the snipers with no penalty, hence they are the most favoured units. Combine this with no true melee buffs without building the whole army into it which makes Despoilers and Assaults into nothing special.
Ha literally scrolled down to mention this, quick off the mark there!
@theOuterCircle Alpha Legion Inductii - is the rule locked to the first turn of the game or the first turn the Inductii enter the game (i.e. held in reserve, enter turn two/three/whatever and are untargetable in the turn they enter?).
@@pitbuell7959first turn of the game I believe, but I don’t have the book in front of me this is all off the top of my noggin’
GW looks at this table and thinks "Hmm, Salamanders might need a nerf..."
Don't give them any more bad ideas.
🤣
Yeah they do look a bit OP
Might as well nerf some more under dogs while we're at it.
Salamanders and Raven Guard are in the same boat, no characters, the bare minimum of playable units so technically they're both considered playable factions JK LoL
That's precisely what they did to guard during 9th edition.
They had a 30% win rate. People started spamming death corps riders as the only viable unit. Still 30% win rate.
GW see this, and instead of buffing the rest of the army to make more viable options and increase the win rate of the faction, they give a 50% points increase to the death corps units.
Leaving absolutely nothing viable to play.
The IF trait should not apply to sniper weapons. It's incredibly annoying to me that they are better at sniping than the Raven Guard, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion.
Imperial fist soldiers are the very best in 30k!
@@funbro99 Yup. Especially better than the White Scars. I'm pretty sure those layabouts spent most of the HH napping or something.
I would add that under Hammer of Olympia. Iron Warriors Tactical marines are excellent. As if they are equipped with Shrapnel Bolters/Pistols, they fire an extra shot every time they shoot and are re-rolling 1s. Also Assault marines massively benefit from the IronFire ROW. As they have the mobility to increase your likelihood of generating IronFire counters and benefit from the stubborn being close combat orientated troops.
Yes, but that's very true but it is also losing sight of the video and specialising into a discipline, like the way pride changes Indomitus into line troops. If we are going to do that, a great many things change, like Stone Gauntlet Imperial Fists, no other troops required, or White Scars running bike spam.
Yeh but the lost range is quite significant. You're going to be shooting about the same amount on average because there are going to be more times where you're out of range.
Fantastic chart Macca, really helpful tool, especially for people looking at a new army and what to try to buy getting into the game
Love ya work Macca! Yet again another informative video!
Great stuff. Thank you for your work
Today is a good day
Today is the best day!
Today is a great day!
Great video as usual. As someone now working on a Night Lords army, I hadn't even considered the fact that they Assault Marines were bulky for the outnumbering. Now to print some assault marines...
Bikers too! And attack bikes count as 3 people per min I believe!!
@@jamesespinosa690not this edition they don’t, neither bikes nor speeders have the bulky rule.
@@TheOuterCircle Oh snap! I forgot it was 2.0! Thank you for the comment!
Sad to see how far bikes have fallen. :C
Have we scipped the Death Guard? Seems like right after ultramarines you started ranting about TS
Ain't no way we got the iron warriors treatment. He just forgot about us.
Yeah, about that….. I actually skipped by and wrote it under the pinned post. I recorded the entire video in one take with no script and only a few notes for the inductii, so had to make a mistake somewhere!
Just saw this after finishing my Assault marines and in general I agree playing blood angels the only time I actually got some use out of Tactical support was plasma annoying terminators so my stronger units can move in and rip them apart.
I don't are what you or anybody else says, the Night Lords Inductii are amazing. They should(TM) work well, but it's not about that. It's about having the absolute most thematic, most hilarious troop unit in all of 30k. The only sad thing is that you cannot give them power axes and laugh your ass off while you decapitate your enemy and/or your own sarge at I10.
Lol, i wondered why my World Eaters kinda get stomped, this has been very informative; cheers mate
My offering to the algorithm!
While they suck, the Night Lords Inductii are hilarious, and I'll have to include at least one unit for my army when I finally make that army
Nice table
If you only think about damage output, the yeah, the iron hands bonus is not very good, but their other bonus helps immensely against range weaponry. So tacticals and breachers that don't die even from S8 guns become very good for the legion. Perhaps even more than Dark Angels.
Totally agree, that's why they are highly rated on the chart.
First of all great video with a lot of useful information!
In my opinion as a Dark Angels player, recon and scouts should be also excellent for DA. Wings still work fine for them. If you use both units as shock troops, just infiltrating them with bolters +1 to hit is still great (I know, maybe a stupid idea for this squad but hey! I'm playing mostly against heavy infiltrating AL ;-) ). And if we are talking about nemesis bolters that will snipe the characters, the firewing and +1 to wound is great.
I don't rate the +1 to wound as much on them for the simple fact that the Nemesis don't get a boost on the rending roll which is the part that matters. If the +1 to hit with boltguns translated to nemesis boltguns, that would make it amazing tho!
Just put numbers in the chart that align with the colours (also lets you do the colours via conditional formatting)
Iron warrior breachers deserve to have some kind of buff, and its stupid that their Inductii dont have the option of some kind of heavy weapon like the IF ones
Iron Warriors breachers have always missed out sadly.
Hmm, good timing on this video - I've got a Blood Angels army but they're currently largely unpainted - mainly just primed - and I was debating since I have a fair few points-worth doing a traitor legion too - I quite liked Alpha Legion but wasn't sure what units to paint what style. What I do have is a lot of support squad guys, recon marines, scouts (because well, you can't do sniper scouts in 40k anymore so I guess my models are now 30k ones), and I really fancied modelling some Breachers. On first glance they all seem like poor choices for Blood Angels but pretty good ones for Alpha Legion.
Be interesting to see charts like this for vehicles and dreadnoughts etc. And obviously elites although that seems a little messier due to all the legion specific units.
Most of those options would be good/fine in BA too. Scouts are good because they can get into CC more reliably for example.
@@jamesespinosa690 yeah admittedly I did have one recon squad that was shotguns and melta bombs. I don't know if that's good or not but I thought it was cool.
Plus I guess leaning entirely into your army buffs can probably leave you exposed elsewhere.
@@sonicwingnut Shotguns really are fucking cool!!
But I was actually suggesting you go for basic Bolter boys, or even better, a plain old CC weapon + Bolt Pistol load out!! I convinced my best friend to try them with his World Eaters (who are even better because of the free chain axes) and let me tell you, I don't think I've ever paid so badly for one of my own suggestions!! Im pretty sure twice now he's had them outflank onto the board, behind me vehicles, and he's bolt pistoled them to death. And I think one of those times it was my mother fucking tank commander he popped!!! We didn't get enough time to finish those games out, but they would have gone on a murder rampage in my back lines if we did.
When you really put your head to it, you can find a TON of sweet little combo's with these units you would never have given the time of day otherwise!!!
It is pretty telling that the only inductii that loses fury of the legion and doesn't suck is the dark angels one which are upgrading their bolters free anyway.
They might work if you kept fury of the legion. The iron hands downside is mimal (1 lost marine in a 6 turn game on average), the Thousand sons one might work if you could have breaching 6+ on a fotl attack and the ultramarines might be as useful as the fists who of course don't lose fotl whilst getting pinning heavy bolters ....
Ngl those night lord inductii are fucking hilarious
Is there any particular reason why so many legions decided to equip their inductii better than their standard legionaries?
Because reasons. Also note how many inductii are just awful, but a couple are amazing. It's all over the place!
I always like tuning in to hear the moaning about Tsons
true
I think the Ultramarine Legion Inductii are not bad. Having a line unit pop out of a rhino/ drop pod with meltas hitting on 2s (legion trait buffed from the rhino/ drop pod firing at the same target) is pretty sweet. Getting inexorable makes them stick on those mid-field objectives better than stock tacticals with no additional support. The loss of artificer armor on the sergeant and the squad capped at 10 is an issue, but I think it's worth it.
Its how I justify taking some MkVI marines anyway, they are perfect for inductii 😅
The only reason they go yellow and not green on the chart is despite the better morale, they have no apothecary and the small squad size means less staying power and less casualties taken to trigger that morale test vs the normal tacticals. If they had a points reduction I'd probably move them up a slot tho.
@@TheOuterCircleSmall squad size?
I play iron hands and having a good assualt squad to reinforce my tactical marines as payed of more than it has not. It's always better to charge than get charged as the saying goes.
Did you forget death guard in this?
You forgot to mention Word Bearers' Dark Channeling to make your squads unbreakable - this works great with big blocks of Despoilers whereby you can jam up the mid-board and your opponent cannot make them flee and/or sweep them, instead having to kill (or make you remove as casualties from morale) every single model!
Why do you think they have a blue or excellent rating for them? Because of exactly that! Glad to see we think alike!
GW *slaps Legiones Astartes*
Look how many tactical squads this nad boy can acommodate.
White scars "this is not a great colored line". Same color distribution of Iron Warriors...
Actually, IW are even worse….
@@TheOuterCirclefair enough. Also did I miss it or did you skip over Inductii for them?
Did you forget Death Guard?
See under the pinned comment!
You skipped over talking about Death Guard unfortunately.
it's in the pinned comment, the follow up video I do talk about them as well when I upload it later today!
So… don’t take any compulsory troops as iron warriors… right.
For the algo