Legion Layout, Deployment and Logistics in the Horus Heresy - Part 1
Вставка
- Опубліковано 18 лис 2022
- Support TOC on Patreon: / theoutercircle
Our bling shop - shop.spreadshirt.com.au/TheOu...
TOC Instagram - / theoutercircle
TOC Facebook page - / theoutercircle
![True Size of a Space Marine Chapter [999.M41] (Part 1) 3D Documentary](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/88NDRvAHWd4/mqdefault.jpg)
This one was a draining video to make, just because there was so much detail to capture, correlate and make function because the story was written by people who aren't military. That's not to put them down in any way, but it did mean that certain limitations have to be placed upon the universe in which the story operates to make it function, and by combining a host of different books together, I was able to come to what I feel are some very reasonable conclusions about how this all works and hopefully give you, the audience, a more reasonable understanding of way in which legions conduct war, at least if you go 'by the book'. If you like this, please let me know, because part 2 will come soon enough.
I certainly love it. Organisation and logistics elements of the various legions is my jam (and historical, I’m currently working on company hq’s and logistics for various wwii companies in 28mm) And I believe you are the first person (that I’m aware of at least) to cover the topic!
I think you nailed it
Thanks for the hard work and time spent putting this together Macca. Exceptional vid, it gives a sense of scale and time that is sadly lacking in so many novels and other source books. Perfect for anyone who doesn't own the black books of HH-V.1.
I'm highly looking forward to the next part as this ended right at the juicy gritty details.
We like it, we want more
I think a part 3 in sorta an adhoc way to show how certain legions conduct their special forms, how aggro a ba drop is, the stealth of the rg, the blunt force of the we, ect
I've always been fascinated with applying logistics in fiction because it gives the universe a sense of "reality".
Unfortunately it's seems a ever growing trend to simply ignore this type of thing.
I have always wondered about the logistics of the horus heresy so this video is very educational.
It shows how starved the element is in stories by how surprised I was to read in the blavk books that volkite was phased out because of logistical concerns, even though it never went into much detail.
@@trolleymouse And wasn't volkite technology designed to replace the boltgun as standrad marine armament. It would be a more logical and less resource costly thing to use energy based weapons rather than shell based weapons if the energy based weapons are sustainable in the long run but I guess it wasn't (or you know 40k boltguns had to be a thing :D)
@@punec Its vice versa. The volkite weapons were harder to produce (and fragile as well if I remember right) while the Boltguns were churned out by the thousands for the GC.
@@loke801 Oh I remember it wrong than. Thanks
I'm gonna have to show this video to my LT next time he critiques our ammo usage 😅 Also an interesting point is that current Canadian Military doctrine is to only engage in an assault on a position when you outnumber the enemy force by a 3:1 ratio. Wild to think how increases in personal armor makes for an exponential increase in advantage for the defending force. Truly makes you shudder at the thought of how grueling marine vs marine engagements in a fully urban environment like Istavaan 3 would be.
Scary stuff
Entrenched enemy position is 9:1, standard aggressive field maneuvers will be 3:1, but again, that's a very flexible figure.
As a USMC officer, this all feels *very* familiar to MAGTF operations . I've read some other 30k-era fan material that is similar. I much prefer the organization and tactics of the Great Crusade/Heresy-era Marines compared to the far more rigid and (IMO) unrealistically poorly-supported 40k Tactical Companies.
Also i like how it lets people still write in numbers they want to with varying sizes
Epic always looked and felt like warfare. WH40K is clearly a game of cute miniatures.
Some of that's undeniably supposed to be the result of the Imperium sliding backwards into incapability/Guilliman going WAY to hard on the breaking up cause he saw his dad get crippled.
On the other hand, some of it can probably be placed at the feet of the OG 40k guys, who were (and still are) not actual military personel or even mildly related to them and just kinda...took what they knew and threw it into a pot.
"A chapter of 1000 superhumans that can conquore a planet" sounds pretty awesome on paper but once you start to break it down it gets a bit less so as you stated...but most people dont break it down that far. Least of all the players or the people reading the books.
(Halo has this same issue ironically enough)
@@KillerOrcawell for the numbers originaly space marines where meant to always fight at chapter strength and combine their forces with other chapters as needed. We saw this on the raid of Tsagualsa (night lord fortress) there where hundreds chapter fighting alongside oncthe same rulebook. This seldom works anymore.
As to 1000 SM conquering a planet: most worlds in the Imperium are bot that populated. Sure hive worlds exist but there are only 38thousand of them? Most worlds are far less populated often without any breathable atmosphere. So once space marines break into there cities there are few things that could harm them. And giving that they can fight for weeks nonstop i guess most militarys will role over at some point and give up.
@@uwesca6263 The worlds described to be conquered are non-Human controlled ones. Thats what "conquering" means.
What your describing in "population control" and isnt usually handled by Marines, thats the Guards job.
I love this kind of video.
The rough calculations on dislodging marines from cover really makes sense of why a lot of the time legionnaires charge at each other with sharpened sticks. It's a much more decisive action than engaging in a small arms duel and marines can take the incoming fire from their counterparts well.
bolter rounds massively vary in effectiveness across different BL authors. one will write them as harmless bouncing off armor and another will have the space marines entire torso blown out from one round
@@SteamGear747 in the heresy novels it is originaly descriped that horus made sure that his legions will get outfitted with bolter rounds that specialice in penetrating power armor. Therefore you could see it as sometimes they have this special ammo on hand and sometimes not.
As an Iron Warriors collector, I love this. I wish I could find a Thunderhawk Transporter for sale.
Probably the best HH video I’ve seen, will be re-watching!
Fascinating video, mate- I can only imagine how long it took you to track down and analyze all that data, and put it in a cohesive and straightforward format. Excellent work, and very enjoyable to watch. My father, who was a tank driver and gunner in the US Army back in the early ‘60s, was a huge WWII enthusiast, and a collector of books on the weaponry, logistics, strategies, and battles of that era- and he was a big influence on my own interests in that field. This video was reminiscent of a lot of the more scholarly documentaries that we used to watch together, so it’s right up my alley- I’m really looking forward to seeing the next one. Again, great job on this one, and thanks for posting it.
Easily one of your best videos. Fantastic stuff man
I’d kill for a 30k-40k version of “Supplying War”
This answers questions I've had for a while thanks for the video
absolutely great video.
while i get that these types of videos are harder to make they are great and i would love to see more.
I'm certainly looking forward to more of this stuff. Logistics is something never to be overlooked.
This couldn't have been easy.
I really appreciate the technical information/organizational minutiae. Thanks.
Anyone who thinks this kind of stuff is boring is not at true 40k fan. Or, even, I would say, 30k fan.
logistics and ballistics FTW!
Boring? Far from it! I love this stuff, knowing how everything works.
Very nice video, this will boost my creation of crusade time space marine rp game
Extremely interesting and well done video, congrats mate
Good video, i like the stuff about Bolters towards the end, as someone else said, it now kinda makes sense why so many carry Swords!
I feel that some major believability issues arise from the models, mainly the orbital insertion craft that have models, it's a wise choice that most of the larger Dropcraft are both ubiquitous in-fiction but never firmly detailed.
Drop pods are a bit iffy due to various logistical issues but i can very easily believe that rapidly delivering 10 Astartes with pinpoint accuracy would be very useful in many scenarios, just not mass deployment. Thunderhawks make far more sense used in the other ways they are depicted, as multipurpose starcraft or close air support/medivac, as the Turbo Laser is a far more powerful weapon in fiction (low-orbit range, vital strategic planetary defence approved) than in game and 20 or so Space Marines are far more threatening as a boarding force or taxied around the Battlespace in VTOL tanks. However otherwise they are a complete joke, a craft of that size and seemingly low numbers could never be used to mass deploy troops from orbit.
Great video; I have always wondered about a legion's command structure and their logistics. I look forward to the next video.
im super happy with this vid, finally you made a vid on somthing you like. its super informative and VERY well made. NJ
Might be your greatest video so far...
Very good and interesting video. Hope you do more of this, for me this background information is very useful as I am building Horus Heresy Army.
You've been on a streak of pretty solid videos Macca,this one is very top notch too,man. Part 2's going to slap!
Fucking awesome video Macca! This is great!!! Can't wait for the next vid!
Loved this. A joy to watch.
Cheers for putting this video together Macca. Been aiming to put a small Imperial Fist BFG force together and this has me chomping at the bit to look for proxy supply ships to include for what a campaign would entail.
So good! Love content like this!!! Keep it up man!
New wave every 40min has the problem that, the strike cruiser would be on the other side of the planet at that point, for the thunderhawks to return to. The international space station is on about 90min orbit.
This is really well done mate!
I love these kinds of videos! Endlessly facinating and great to think about!
Would love to see a similar style of video for other Imperial factions too :)
Looove iiit.🔥🔥🔥
Need more lore stuff like this macca!
One of the most interesting warhammer video I've seen since a long time, great work !
Chaos gate 1998 is a good analog to determine the loadout and standards of what a space marine is armed and equipped with. A standard boltgun has sixteen shots in the shortest banana shaped magazine which you carry four, two frag grenades, two Krak grenades, two field medics and the standard issue knife. Depending on the mission they could take more supplies or less if needed, or different grenade types, like plasma grenades, blind grenades, melt bombs, agent orange, or haywire grenades, or rad grenades (Some of these special grenade types are not likely to be given to squad.) The standard is four magazines of extra ammo whether its bolter ammo, plasma cells, etc.
Then a missile launcher can take one rack of five missiles in it of which they could take four extra racks either with the same type (e.g Frag, Krak, Plasma, Melta-missiles, or agent orange.) and add more which in this context could be carried by the rest of the squad or in the rhino or drop pod. Heavy bolters get four chambers for belted ammo with varying amounts but the minimum twenty shots (Heavy bolters have nasty habit of jamming so proper care is important.) Each plasma cell for a plasma gun can fire eight shots before needing to be reloaded which you have four cells, (plasma pistols can fire six shots before needing a reload, and plasma cannons have a built-in recharge system, but if you don't let the weapon recharge fully after a shot then it will only fire like a plasma gun (provided it doesn't explode in your face. Las cannons have sixteen shot per cells before a replace of the cell is required. A properly maintained Melta-gun can fire twelve times before the cell needs to be replaced, and a Multi-Melta double that so 24 shots.
By the way just for fun each magazine on a a storm bolter can contain fifty rounds so a hundred bolts per storm bolter. (combi Bolters get around the fifty rounds.) limit by using clips and the gatling cannon has two thousand rounds. Just to note terminators don't get extra ammo as they can't reload their weapons in terminator armor, that stuff would stay in the land raider or such.
I did look at that, some of the weapons have quite a bit of change since then, namely missiles and boltguns.
@@TheOuterCircle I think taking an approach from the perspective of oldhammer, Chaos Gate 1998, a splash of realism, and real military stuff can make for an interesting way to look at it.
And yeah, sixteen bolt rounds in the boltgun is very little, and often run dry faster than you'd like. XD
Hu... that drop pod assault timeline sounds a lot like the airfield seizure operational timeline I learned in my time as a Paratrooper.
Also the whole ammunition issue is one of the things that has always kinda bugged me about Warhammer minitures. Maybe with the prominence of 3D printing within the hobby we as a community can remedy that in a way that doesn't look... well ridiculous lol.
Well done. I enjoyed the TOE/TTP's for the planetary invasion.
The fact there isn't a landspeeder with a flatbed to carry ammo is tragic
I'm thinking if Guilliman would turn to chaos during heresy, imperial would lose
Awesome info 👌
excellent can't wait
Very good vid.i had no idea
Looking at the description of a Legionstructure between 2:00 and 6:50 I would say that the Codex Astastes of Roboute Guilliman was a huge mistake (at least from a gaming perspective).
Seeing this graphic makes way more sense playing for example a company of Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists or whatever when their are maybe 100 or maybe even 1000 companies inside the how many chapters of a Legion (and not the "the most famous chapter has 4 Battle companies at the same time, so building one of them would be a lore break).
With a structure like the legions it acutally makes sense to sell people Ultramarines because if you don't play Roboute Guilliman himself (or one of the other named charakters there is really enough room to play your own company or even Battalion (or maybe even have your own chapter in the Legion).
Cool af Macca! Thanks to fulfill my ocds 🤟
This might have been a pain in the arse but this was a great video as I'm a fan of the nitty gritty details like this. Makes the fiction feel more lived in
The Outer Circle x The Operations Room collab when?
No idea what that is.
@@TheOuterCircle a very well regarded UA-cam channel that does infographic videos of real conflicts and battles in exactly this style!
I’ve always noticed that there are subalterns in the Vexillarius at the Legion, Chapter, and Battalion levels. I’m guessing they’re the executive officers at their respective unit levels or do they fill some other role since they’re listed under the Vexillarius?
Interesting, that you used Jeddah for the map explanation. :D
Hello, I've been struggling very specifically with a legion org. You see, the imperial fists mention echelons, households, and companies from 1st to 422nd. I was wondering how this all works together. For instance, is the first assault echelon a series of companies specialising in assault formations like phalanax warders and assault marines? Are they numbered from one to so on, or is every single company unique and simply attached to large formations like battalions, echelons and chapters.
Is there a part 2?
this must have been taxing, tried doing somehing simuler and i couldn't even get close
Would you be willing to do one for skitarii ?
Warhammer logistics... Arch will love this I'm sure.
I know I do
How exactly do second and third wave Drop Pod work in the lore? Are the same tubes reloaded with more Drop Pods or do they simply save some tubes for later drops?
Extra pods basically get loaded into the launchers after the first ones drop. They can be stacked one behind the other.
Someone can writte how are spelled the titles that compose the vexiliaris
Not sure when P2 is coming out, but I'm curious how realistic is to deploy that much (or little) resources to a ~70mx100m battlefield, which is roughly the standard 6x4 scaled down to 1:64. Why even drive tanks...
The tabletop is an abstraction of a real engagement.
@@alexknudsen2759 yes water is wet my friend
You mentioned ancients with the primarch, thats the dreadnoughts right? I feel like a lot of sources just put stuff in this section with the praetorate if they are a but unsure how to fit them in
I feel this is confused with 40k ancients who are standard bearers actually being the vexillarius in hh. Also I think using ancient this way (standard bearer) goes against 40k use of the term ancient as well but was one of the 8th ed changes after they started getting rid of generic stuff. I dont have my old forty k books to check.
Ancients of the Legion can be the Consul assigned to the Vexillia, but is generally reserved for the senior dreadnoughts. I didn't choose the names, it's in a list in Book I.
@@TheOuterCircle that’s interesting, I will have to check that out; apart from dreadnoughts I thought there were no references to ancients in heresy, hence my theory about it being a 40k conflation. Either way I think Ill stick with vexillarius as my imperial term as it sounds rad! Not that it makes much difference to a scars player.
@@TheOuterCircle Ancient is such a stupid term for Standard Bearer.
You are my kind of nerd 😅
Its funny comparing this to a similar video about the star wars clone army. The clone army is a complete and utter mess xD