Love what they did there ! This is fixing the discrepancies between the series the right way. And it builds the universe whilst leaving enough room for the spectator's imagination.
In the TNG era, Romulans were presented as Proto-Vulcans, Romulans were supposedly one step down the evolutionary ladder. The aliens in Who Watches the Watchers were also Proto-Vulcans, that more closely resembled Romulans than Vulcans.
@Clogged Nostrils The Remans we see in Nemisis were former mining slaves. Maybe if they grew up in a more ... civilized environment they would be less hideous? Personally in my head canon I figured the Romulans settled in that system because the native remans were 'kind of like us.' (Or they were just a convenient source of slave labour.)
I think that the Remans were originally a lower class of Romulans that only had mining as a choice of careers. Over time they either started evolving to adapt better to the mines, or they were genetically altered to make better miners. So they were a subgroup of Romulans. We've seen both smooth headed and the occasional ridged Vulcan in the background. Some of the ridges are fairly faint so maybe it's more prominent among Romulans because they started with a smaller breeding population so the trait started to become more prominent.
@@jonnystorm1 Vulcan and presumably Romulan DNA seems to be really dominant in pairings with humans where some Vulcanoid traits will still show after several generations.
I LOVE that they've taken this approach to portraying the Romulans and I think it is a perfect way to portray how they've appeared across different series. Just like some humans have different identifiable features than others depending where they are from (noses, eyes, etc) it's totally plausible some Romulans have flat foreheads, some have ridges. We should celebrate the departure from all alien races conforming to one dimensional stereotypes. Let's see TOS, DIS, and TNG style Klingons mixing it up together soon!
Right. Additionally it took the Romulans quite a while to reach Romulas from Vulcan with several periods of settlement, alien contact, and warfare along the way. The ridges in some Romulans could an artifact of this time period through inter species breeding or isolating some populations long enough to create more than one distinctive morphology.
@@hessanscounty3592 Indeed. Some have brought up the fact that Romulans are xenophobic, even racist, to dispel this notion. But I find it difficult to believe that at least some of them have never taken an interest in other humanoid species over their history of thousands of years.
I have to admit I love the Picard mix of Romulans really think it looks good and shows the different races of the species which they are bound to have as we do, good work guys! Really happy with how Picard is shaping up 🖖
Agreed, the heavy ridges kind of permanently imprint an expression on someone's face, and I think can take away from some of the more nuanced acting. Not to say I haven't enjoyed many of the TNG romulans, I just think it was an unnecessary measure.
@@Jack_Stafford I agree with you that it was unnecessary in the first place, but think these new Romulan forehead makeups are rather tastefully done. (As well as the ones Neville Page designed for Star Trek 2009.) But you're right, the unfortunate side effect of any full forehead appliance is that actors can't really use their eyebrows to emote. But this may have actually worked well for the personality of Klingons since they permanently look as if they're scowling.
I always thought it was just so people could tell the difference between Vulcans and Romulans in TNG. But STP seems to be going back to the whole idea of them looking similar, so it allows them to infiltrate better.
I'm digging the look of the Romulans. I think there's more in the back story of the vineyard Romulans though. Picard didn't get blown up and land up on the family sofa in a failed plot point.
I prefer smooth head like Vulcans. They even made that a plot point in Star Trek 6 so at least this dual forehead possibility links canon. Until Nemesis I thought the ridges were stupid. The introduction of cohabitation with the Remans retconned their ridges for me, and now visual continiuty is restored as far as the Romulans go anyways.
Well, she did slap the fella on the forehead referring to him as a "Northerner", so regional variations on physical appearances do happen even here in reality, like short, rotund people, round headed people with big noses and sticky-outy ears, tall people with bony bodies, etc., genetic diversity and all... :)
TNG Romulans I'm sure I remember having a genetic purity thing going on at times, so I don't think they'd have been happy with mixing in Klingon DNA. I think its just a phenotype that was more common amongst the Vulcan exodites than ti was amongst those who stayed behind.
I just finished the second episode of Picard and they literally showed EVERY single variation of Romulan we've ever seen, from The Original Series, STV and VI, TNG, and JJ- verse. This is the way to go. Let's see every kind of Klingon next!
Guys, i usually enjoy your disecting videos. But siroiusly? Genetic maniplulations, just because not every Romulan has ridges? I mean not every human is a a caucasian male or female (or other). There are different races within humanity as well.
I love that they have the TOS and TNG styles. It's funny because growing up I remember my mom hated the TNG ones because they were supposed to be the same as the Vulcans. My head canon is that the group that became Romulans mixed with some other species they conquered early on so there is a slight genetic difference. Of course in the real world the ridges were probably added so casual fans could tell them apart from Vulcans better.
Jamie McShane aka Zhaban that's the actor natural hairline and Oral Brady whom is Irish aka Laris, was sheraised in Ireland or the universal translator given her a Irish accent!!
I always felt that Remans and Romulans had bred with the natives of their respective worlds they probably once conquered. The smooth headed Romulans were not from the core of the Empire. They were probably there, we just didn’t see them. I’m sure the smooth headed Romulans were treated far better than their Reman cousins.
I always took it as this: When the Vulcan refugees took over Romulus and began conquering Remus and the other core planets of what became the Romulan Star Empire, many fell in love and interbred with the "locals" Those who were successful slowly adopted the features of their mated races (we actuallty see some of the bat-like Remans with more pronounced temples and forehead ridges, although it's not as common as smooth heads). The Ridged Romulans are thus mixed race, while the smooth foreheaded Romulans are purebreds. It's interesting to note how subtle the ridges are on the male in this episode, suggesting one of his parents was a purebred. COnsidering it only takes five generations to completely eradicate all traces of ethnicity in humans, the period between Enterprise and TNG is plenty of time to theoretically have two or more generations that begin with a purebed and alien, with the offspring marrying an alien each generation until we get the very different look in TNG. Now as for ridged Romulans prior to TNG... that could be a production flub or perhaps some early Romulans were already mixed (civilian) Klingon/Vulcan... I do like the idea that the Tal Shiar may have also used Klingon DNA to enhance themselves, but considering these were both civilians, it makes sense they would logically have smoother features if that were the case. Also, in Balance, it was made clear that particular crew was chosen to perform a very secret mission. Choosing purebreds made the most sense, as it would help hide the fact that they were responsible for the attacks if their DNA could pass for Vulcan if any remains were found. Either way, I really feel like they knocked it out of the park in the makeup department. Data's contacts aside, all of the aliens we've seen thus far are absolutely amazing (do you know how hard it is to get nictitating membranes to blink properly on a live actor?) and I can't wait to see how they handle other species (real Klingons, anyone?) or even Borg-ified aliens.
Yeah, I also figured that when the Romulans fled Vulcan and conquered the Remans they probably tried to breed them out. This has happened in Earth's history before, IRL. There is some indication that the Klingons may have done this on planets they have conquered, too. So, there are mixed heritage "ridged" Romulans and more "purebred" Romulans with smoother features. It is also interesting that Remans have telepathic abilities, like Vulcans, and Romulans do not. A dormant Vulcan gene, perhaps?
@@MikeNobody I think the Aboriginal legends about telepathy sort of apply to the Romulans. According to the legend, all humans were once telepathic and always knew everything everyone ele was thinking. Then, one day, someone told the first lie. Because they had lied, their mind became closed so the others couldn't see the deception. Once that happened, humanity snowballed. The only way to be telepathic is to have absolutely no secrets and therefore ahve no need to close your mind off to others. In the sense of Vulcans vs Romulans, I can picture emotion being the difference. Vulcans are telepathic because they're disciplined, but to communicate telepathically, all barriers must come down in both parties. Since Romulans embrace their emotions, they lack the control needed and thus keep their minds closed off to hide their vices from those around them. Sure, Vulcans can lie, but they always form a logical justification and thus have no real need to hide the fact once discovered.
The Romulans left Vulcan in subwarp ships and eventually inbreeding became a problem so they picked up 'breeding stock' from planets along the way, among them were Klingons. This is why Worf was the only compatible donor for that dying Romulan in TNG 9even though there were Vulcans on the Enterprise). This is also why Romulans don't go through Pon Farr.
All the best comments for STP.....and I wholeheartedly agree. The wigs worn, some over the years looked a skinned tribble and others, who left the replicator on.
There have been complainers about Laris' Irish accent, but they also live up twice or more longer than humans, so she may have spent time in Ireland or amongst Irish. Plus, she was a high-level agent who could have spent time undercover on Earth for some time.
Any one remember the Romulan spy posing as on of Starfleet and Vulcan’s most distinguished ambassadors and she devised a plan to make it look like she died at federation responsibility.. I think the episode was called “Data’s Day “ first time for me in the TNG era that I saw a smooth forehead on Romulan Sub-Commander
I really like them having some ridges so they look different to Vulcans. I really really like the more subtle approach from PICARD, I would have liked her to have some really really subtle ridges aswell, but it doesnt bother me that she doesnt.
Maybe the Romulans intermingled with a conquered species in their Empire, giving them the ridges. I love that Picard features both kinds. I like the new ridges best.
Romulan Empire was big. Lots of different looks for different regions. But Picard mixes TOS with TNG and Kelvin universe. Very cool. Makes you wonder if the klingons will be shown in the same manner with TOS, movies/TNG/ENT and discovery versions
The preators ears reflect the sovereign class saucer with the more rounded feel, but the other romulan is definitely channelling a Prometheus vibe to his ears. The romulan commander and the other woman we see in Picard definitely look like they could be related. Assuming romulan lifespans are similar to vulcans ot could even be her daughter or grand daughter
I’m till curious how Picard is going to deal with the Klingon debacle created by Discovery. Especially since we say a frame of proper Klingons in picards introduction on federation Gill O’Riley
What do you want to bet that they ignore talking about it completely, since they showed Worf appearing normal, I think it'd be better for them to just ignore it than to try to shoehorn an explanation?
Dale Stafford Or Clunky dialogue Guy: Hey, why don’t we see if the Klingons will help? Guy2: Good luck, since no one has had any contact with any Klingon in 15 years. It’s like they don’t even exist Guy: Yes...like they don’t even exist. Guy2: But those tachyon emissions tho
I prefer the low key prosthetic makeup for the Romulans. I feel the TNG/DS9 Romulans were a little heavy on the makeup. I also feel they went a little heavy on the Vulcan makeup in DS9.
it be great if that could cast as a To Milan female for Oacard the actriss, who played the To Milan center in Star Trek Continues. who us the Dauter of the original across who played same role, she looked just like her mom .an did a fantastic job at her role, I for get her name, but she has talent like her mom did
This what they should have done with the Klingons in DIS. Show a variety - TOS, TMP, TUC, TNG and some new Klingorcs. There could have even been some political intrigue with different versions in different houses. Maybe show how the more ambitious TOS Augment virus Klingons became more predominant by TOS.
This is a GOOD way of being "25% different". Based on Star Trek novelizations, I've long held that VULCANS themselves have harsher features with harder planes than we typically see in the show, there was just limits to what these shows can do, certainly in the case of TOS. Romulans MIGHT be somewhat more enhanced for being 'rougher, tougher, but only just. Also, as testosterone can give males brow ridges and 'craggy' features, it might be that Romulans get the 'V' forehead formation due to hormonal development as much as genetic reasons.
I would just like to say talk about the ridged Romulans in Enterprise. Those Romulans and in the back ground Remans are from the future. Enterprise was all about the temperal cold war. The ship was controlled from the future. There lies so, they had ridges because they were post TOS not pre.
Well, i think this guy from picard is a perfecht romulan, not so strong forhead, but also not none forhead, it is kind a mix between and thats cool. Maybe over 1800 years on a maybe more wild Romulus than Vulcan changed the Romulans a liite bit
Excellent analysis. Romulans are paranoid distrustful and evil. Vulcans are very calm and trustful so yeah if a Romulan acts like a Vulcan or vice-versa without the ridges then yes it's very hard to differentiate. I strongly agree!
Yeah I brought up the fact that the romulans resume their original TOS look and not TNG to Lorereloaded was shocked in his response that he didn't "see it"
I was always under the impression that Vulcans were stronger than Klingons. If so it wouldn't make sense that they would use Klingon DNA to enhance themselves.
Personally i prefer the subtle ridge , maybe just a sub species of romulan similar to our Neanderthals lol i dunno . Really liking the show so far .....accept for that damn theme music lol
I have far more problem with the new Romulan hair styles than I do the Romulan prosthetic. I can accept having differing styles than a bowl cut but there is way too much variance when we have ample examples from both military and civilians that the bowl cut is the predominant hair style. So you should see that remain as a predominant hair style and have variations on that theme (they did one female guard on the Artifact that had a nice variant on the theme) but theres way too much stylistic diversity now. That said It is nice seeing more elaboration on the Romulans and seeing a logical diversifcation of their personalities so we can get a better fix on what is truly Romulan behavior.
Plot twist, the forehead bump evolved to protect there eyes - specifically since somehow unbeknownst to the Romulans their star was about to explode 3000 years later
The injecting Klingon DNA to increase their strength argument doesn't really hold up. For one thing, Vulcans are stronger than Klingons, which means that Romulans would already be stronger than Klingons as well. Klingon DNA would make them weaker, not stronger. The canon makes it clear that the hierarchy for strength among the three species would go - Vulcans, Klingons, then Humans. Aside from canonical statements about the strength differences between them, there are clear demonstrations of Vulcan superiority - Spock crushing a computer and bending metal pipes, for instance, or Spock tossing a Klingon several yards while a teenager (“Search For Spock.”) We have never seen a Klingon display a comparative feat to either. In fact, it's debatable whether Klingons are even stronger than humans on average. The only "strong" Klingons we ever actually see are Kruge in ST:III, and Worf. But neither seem as strong as Spock or Tuvok. I believe Klingons are tougher than humans due to both their unique physiology and warrior ethos compared to humans. So if we give them the benefit of the doubt, they should be no more than twice as strong as the average human. There are instances where humans stand up to both species, or where Klingons have defeated Vulcans, which might seem to contradict these facts, but there are a few reasons that they aren’t contradictions at all. Most of the time, these fights are not won through strength, but through environment, weaponry, or technique. When Torres defeats her Vulcan crewmate, for instance, it is through superior combat skill, and he is holding back. He wanted to mate with her, not kill her. Statements of a species being stronger are not an overall comparison between all individuals of the two races, but rather general ones. The statement that Vulcans are three times stronger than humans, for instance, does not mean all Vulcans are three times stronger than all humans. It means that an AVERAGE Vulcan is three times stronger than an AVERAGE human, and an ATHLETIC Vulcan is three times stronger than an ATHLETIC human. That does not mean that an OLYMPIC LEVEL human could not be stronger than an ATHLETIC Vulcan, however. When we see humans contending with either species, they are usually extraordinary specimens of physical perfection (like James T. Kirk) and exceptionally skilled in combat (like Kirk, Picard, and Torres), or the individual in question is not at their best (as with Torres’ fight with her crewmate) or taken by surprise (as with Riker’s fight with Klag.) A Vulcan or a Klingon that's not trained in combat situations wouldn't fare well. On equal footing the edge goes to the Vulcan, even though the Klingon bloodlust could catch the Vulcan off guard. The Vulcan would fight logically and that could be an asset as much as a hindrance as well as the Klingon throwing themselves into the battle. Even though the Vulcan is physically stronger, Klingon anatomy and training is also a factor. Strength does not necessarily mean in all applications of muscle. For instance, you could work out every day and hone your body to be capable of lifting hundreds of pounds, yet remain incapable of breaking a brick. There are different muscles in the body which handle different tasks (pushing, pulling, lifting, striking, etc.) The metric of “stronger” is not necessarily clear when statements like this are made. Overall, however, the evidence remains clear, in my opinion. Vulcans are stronger than Klingons, who are stronger than humans - ON AVERAGE. Romulans never demonstrated superior strength in any series, and even seemed equal to humans, DESPITE their Vulcan lineage. However, Star Trek 2009, Nero picks Kirk up like a rag doll, with one hand. It is reasonable to assume they are as strong as Vulcans, I think, so they must be 3 times as strong as a human.
I think Picard has the best looking iteration of Romulans yet. They look distinct and yet diverse, some having more pronounced ridges and others less so. Very much like humans can have bigger or smaller ears/noses/other facial features. Always loved the TNG look but I have to admit, every Romulan looking and dressing almost identical (even the civilians) does not hold up so well.
I'm honestly not too fond of the new ears. They look too much like elf-ears. I quite like the subtle ridges, even though evolutionarily speaking 90yrs isn't enough to explain the difference between TOS and TNG. But it's a relatively minor thing. Unlike the change to the Klingons from TNG to DIS or even from TOS to TNG. But at least we got a good/reasonable explanation for the change from TOS to TNG Klingons.
I never liked the ridges. The whole point of romulans is that they look just like vulcans. However the way picard is mixing the looks is the right way to go.
Agreed. Only reason Romulans have ridges in TNG is because they are bad guys and need to look more evil? I guess? It's dumb. Romulans are a biologically recent branching off of Vulcans.
Maybe it's just genetic diversity. A Chihuahua and a Mastiff are both dogs but look look wildly different. I can buy this explanation for alien species.
The Romulan ridges have always been a sticking point with me. And it wasn't just the ridges. TNG Romulans also had that caked on greenish-grey make-up. Terrible. I agree with the Captain that all the Romulans have bowl cuts was lame. It was dumb that Vulcans all had bowl cuts in TNG, as well. Vulcans had a diversity of haircuts in TOS and in the movies. Some even had crazy samurai ponytails with shaved heads. It assumed the audience wasn't smart enough to understand that Romulans looked like Vulcans. It encouraged lazy writing. In any case, how many times in TNG would have it been confusing for the audience? If anything, the ridges confuse matters. So, the Romulans left Vulcan a few thousand years ago and developed ridges? That's not how evolution works. That's pretty basic. It also just looks silly. Plus, the whole point of Romulans was that they looked exactly like Vulcans. It was honestly more of an issue to me than the various Klingons looks we've had. The Romulans are supposed to look a certain way. At least in Picard they calmed things down with the ridges, so I'm happy with it. I was really glad in ST09 that they dropped the ridges. I didn't hear about anyone being confused about who were Vulcans or who weren't. I think including both the toned down ridged and the non-ridged was a good call. What would be interesting is if there is an ethnic Vulcan minority that has the ridges and this is where it all comes from.
I have a theory about the Romulans and why they are against AI and synthetic life...........Romulans messed around with it right after the split from Vulcan. They got to the level of synthetic organic life, and then it all went wrong. The synths may be the ones with ridges, and then they bred with original Romulans, so now the entire population has some synth DNA, some more than others.
I think the ridge is just something that not all romulans have. Or at least for some of them it's so unpronounced it just looks flat. We know those guys were vulcans not so long ago, several thousands of years in fact, and we know humans didn't really change in that amount of time. So we can only assume romulans engaged in some sort of artificial selection, eugenics and stuff. And while the whole "nazi" thing is more about cardassians, we know romulans like that stuff as well.
I prefer the subtle ridges for Romulans. It makes them distinct from Vulcans. I never really liked the extreme ridges from TNG etc. It feels like too much of an evolution for the species considering that the split between the two is only a few thousand years.
what if the ridges are pre-Surak Vulcan trait. the more emotional the more/bigger your ridges. stop the hate and control your emotions, your ridges go away. civilian Romulans are filled with worry about being outed/controlled by the state, brings out the ridges. if not then undergound back alley surgery to give you ridges. Smooth headed Romulans can hide like the pro unification crowd.
No species in star trek should be monotypic. This is one of the largest issues that ST has always had when displaying other races. It is also why the Klingons in Discovery, not only are okay and acceptable, but work. Once you start taking these variations and start moving them outside of their natural habitats, over time, due to the nature of the environment, in this case, new planets, where gravity, atmospheric conditions, radiation etc.etc. over time would cause changes within the group. If we take races like the Klingons and Romulans who are spread out over hundreds if not thousands of planets, we should see an overall similarity while still having diversity in their appearance, more so as time progresses, something that we know happens here on Earth with our own species. So no, not all Klingons should look the same, nor should all Romulans. If anything the longer the races have been living separated from their home planet the greater the variation should be. On Earth we do not have enough genetic separation to have subspecies, in ST with the aforementioned races over time there would be. So if anyone has an issue with canon, or them not looking the same, they do not need to, and should not. There does not need to be an in-universe explanation for any variation.
Evolution requires at least hundreds of thousands of years for any significant change across species in complex organisms. It also requires a survival advantage. This is true for humans in the real world. The fact that Romulans would be spread out over several planets or thousands would not alter one set of population and distinguish it from from another in a drastic why such as the "TNG" Klingons and the Discovery ones. The causes you propose such as gravity, atmospheric conditions, radiation certainly may have affects but in large time frames as mentioned. Lower gravity would decrease bone density and that happens quickly but it doesn't alter genes in the way you are proposing. There would also have to be a evolutionary advantage for decreased bone density. I think the better explanation is that simply that the group of Vulcans that left Vulcan thousands of year prior were a subset population of Vulcans such as Neanderthals or Devonians are to homo sapiens. (The Mintakins in TNG, which were a primitive "proto-Vulcan" species had ridges.) Because of interbreeding with Spock like Vulcans or "regular" Vulcans their species were diverse in appearance. A reason could be why regular Vulcans don't have ridge looking Vulcans is because those traits would have been absorbed in a large population if they mixed, a recessive trait. Another reason could be that the "Romulan"-Vulcans left during the Vulcan war precisely because they were a oppressed people besides waring with other Vulcans. Where the Vulcans were far more violent then the Romulan-Vulcans, and embracing of logic was their salvation. As far as Discovery Klingons, it would have made more sense if they were depicted as a small population of oppressed Klingons that were the Klingon "Neanderthals." That way, the established Klingons could have been depicted or at least alluded to what out creating a logical negation. Even so, the drastic change and difference in their appearance was completely unnecessary.
@@Rabbithole8 Your first point does stand true, with the exception of the time scale, we know this through decades of fruit fly studies. The Romulans and Klingons in any of the series are not that drastically removed from each other, with the exception of the TOS Klingons, which when needing to be removed from reality - '60s, budget, abilities- and have an in universes explanation, they did quite well. We were never exposed to the full diversity of the species, as a result when a new show has changed the physical characteristics of the species, all we can do is accept it. Our sample size of exposure has and continues to be small for a population of tens of billions. How the many among the fan base are treating what has been presented, is similar to if aliens came to Earth, landed in a remote generally isolated area then designated that those humans are how all humans are, then upon exposure to other groups reject that these new groups are human. We have no information on the variations among the species, and variation of population sizes and growth rates, before leaving their home planet. Radiation exposure and environmental factors can lead to changes in the genetic material in short time frames, where offsprings genetics are impacted. Even with a limited timespan, changes within a species can occur if the right situations exist. Your examples, fit in with mine, even your explanation for Discovery Klingons. All we are doing is being exposed to a greater sample size of their population, and in using real-world researched patterns of other species to fill in the reasoning of the changes we are seeing. You say unnecessary, i say it is the opposite. What we had been presented with was always limiting and far too homogeneous. These changes are necessary and line up with what we know of known populations and the variations within them.
@@mikestoast You made a straw man argument because this is what I wrote: Evolution requires at least hundreds of thousands of years for any significant change across species in complex organisms. It also requires a survival advantage. This is true for humans in the real world. The fact that Romulans would be spread out over several planets or thousands would not alter one set of population and distinguish it from from another in a drastic why such as the "TNG" Klingons and the Discovery ones. The causes you propose such as gravity, atmospheric conditions, radiation certainly may have affects but in large time frames as mentioned. Lower gravity would decrease bone density and that happens quickly but it doesn't alter genes in the way you are proposing. I didn't state that small changes don't occur with environmental changes including radiation. However, the type of drastic change you were proposing only can occur over hundreds of thousands of years if not millions. Of course mutations are passed on from one generation to the next, what is called germline (germ line). The type of mutation that occurs with say higher levels of radiation is sporadic or somatic mutation: it is an acquired mutation. This type of mutation can lead to cancer. Other causes of somatic mutation is diet and hormonal imbalance etc. The cell usually repairs these kinds of mutations or it will "commit suicide" through what is called apoptosis. If a germline is beneficial for adaptation, it will spread through natural selection until it is wide spread through a population and this penetrance alters that species. Therefore, for drastic visible changes to take place would mean that a continued enhancing of that trait would be selected for. The better the trait is at adapting, the better versions would be selected. In the radiation on a new planet example, the Klingon, let's say, that can adapt better to the higher radiation would be selected for. That is, if the radiation is higher than usual but not so high to kill off all Klingons. Again, any drastic change would occur over large time frames. Your Star Trek species multi-planetary evolution doesn't fit with how evolution works. It is also unnecessary because there is a better explanation. The other explanation that I offered, evolutionary diversification on a home planet, makes sense. We both seem to agree here. To be clear, I also prefer a diverse representation of a species. I think smooth headed Romulans and ridged ones are great as long as the explanation is a sound one, like the one I proposed. The same goes for Klingons. What I think was unnecessary was to change the Klingons so drastically without presenting them as one variation of Klingon that existed among the others. Discovery went back to committing the same kind of over simplification because it didn't include the other types. On top of that, it was unnecessary because no one would have uttered anything like, "Where are the drastically altered Klingons?" It was unnecessary in that sense.
@@Rabbithole8 There is no straw man argument. Time scale is not the important factor, but reproduction rate and distribution of the traits through the species. There is a large unknown factor, in that we do not have any firm time scales for when these species started to leave their planets. Survival advantage does not come into play for species that have developed to a point where they can counteract (tools, shelter, clothing etc) natural forces. There is nothing drastic about the changes to the Romulans or the Klingons in any of the shows that has been presented. As to other real-world examples separating populations from the original colony, biological and genetic variations can present themselves in short order. Who said anything about lower gravity? you keep bringing it up when it was not in my original argument. Gravity in general, yes, as a factor for change, be it higher, lower, or irregular. This is space, and the universe of ST, where there are anomalies everywhere. It has always been a mix of taking real-world scientific research and mixing it with the bombastic of Star Trek. I agree that as far as we know, any drastic change requires time, now bring it back to Star Trek and combine that with the craziness of space that we have been presented with. Thankfully this show has not shown us any drastic changes in any of the characters. It is always presented us with a small sample size of any alien population that is essentially homogeneous, where this is a result of budgeting and not a reflection of real-world genetic variation within species. Take those variations, and much like on earth have groups set out for different worlds and different conditions, examples of which i listed, where over 100's of generations, that variation would present itself in a random speculative way from our perspective. On top of all of that, we are still using earth-based genetic reasoning on a completely alien species, yet another factor to take into account. I fully agree with evolutionary diversification on a home planet as it i was part of my initial argument. That it is never any one thing but a combination of all the known factors. I do not think they needed to present them as one variation of Klingon as it would have been too much handholding, people should have been able to make deductions on their own, through their education, real-world experiences and understanding the nature of show production. In hindsight that appears to be wrong by how man people still have issues. I would agree more with your end argument if we had not been presented with an exactly similar situation in the past, the Klingons of TMP from TOS. No explanation was given for 20 years, and the fans grew to accept. They were presented as Klingons, with no mention of there being others. Within Star Trek, we already have precedent for this kind of change.
@@mikestoast I brought up gravity as a generic variable, one that has a great impact on organisms especially bone density. It was simply brought up as one variable among others. You wrote: Time scale is not the important factor, but reproduction rate and distribution of the traits through the species. Actually time scale is an important factor in evolutionary changes for complex organisms. You are making a category error when you compare fruit fly evolutionary change to complex organisms. For one thing, the number of offspring of fruit flies produce compared to say mammals is in thousands to how many a mammalian species can suckle at any given time which is certainly under 100. For primates, or hominids that number is far less. Also, the higher the cognitive ability the higher the dependence upon the mother. Furthermore, the genome of complex organisms aren't as malleable as lower ones. Mammals can't grow a limb that was cut off, for example. There is not indication in Star Trek that Romulans and Klingons have offspring in the thousands nor that they aren't complex organisms like cats, dogs, apes and humans. The actual trait that is beneficial and is selected alters populations of a species over time. The individuals that carry the beneficial trait are more successful and pass on the trait to their offspring. Small changes such as slightly lower or higher body temperature etc. can occur over thousands if not hundreds of years due to diet and other factors. However, drastic phenotypic and genotypic changes require large time scales with environmental pressures selecting for advantageous traits. You are correct in that reproduction "rate" is important and of course distribution of selected traits through a species is a necessary condition. I certainly didn't state otherwise. However, the idea that you a proposing that a large scale time frame isn't a necessary component in the evolutionary process for complex organisms is simply wrong. Time scales of hundreds of thousands to millions is a necessary condition in the process of diversification of complex organism to the scale we are talking about. An illusive example is Homo Erectus to Neanderthals, Devonians, and Homo Sapiens. Please cite any evolutionary biologist that disagrees. As far as Romulans are concerned, we are told in Star Trek that they split off from the Vulcans thousands of years before TOS and the other series. Again, any change in their genotype which would alter their appearance across species would have had to be the result of adaptation to environmental forces. Any change would require selected traits passed down over multiple generations. In complex organisms this requires at least hundreds of thousands of years. In addition, the fact that we also have species that have technology also mitigates and certainly diminishes the biological need for adaptation. To get from TNG Klingons to Discovery Klingons is even more problematic. The proposition that we ought to project our real world knowledge of concepts like evolution onto a series like Star Trek is a sound one. That's what any viewer naturally does. If a viewer has knowlege in a particular area, he or she would expect that the conceptual world would operate according to those understoond rules such as biologically evolution. This is known as "the principle of minimal departure." We expect those principles to hold true until we are told otherwise. In a series that is a science fiction genre show like Star Trek, we then expect plausible answers. Either that, or we can accent to suspend our disbelief based upon factors such as "the 60's budget." However, once DS9's "Trials and Tribble-ations," mixed TOS and TNG type Klingons it asserted that within that conceptual world at least two types of Klingons exist. The just "use your imagination" was removed from the table. Now it is up to the writers to offer an answer that maps onto our real world, more or less. If not, it isn't science fiction but a bad fantasy genre show. The proposition that TNG type Klingons left Qo'noS hundreds of thousands if not millions of years ago and evolved into related species is ludicrous. Klingon technology itself would have been far more advanced than the Federation's technology. The necessary evolutionary time scale is absent and also given the fact that Klingon technology would have mitigated changes is also an important factor. Therefore, none of this works as explanations. Plugging your non-scientific explanation of evolution without large time frames also doesn't work. Again, Romulan or Klingon evolving off-world resulting in such drastic phenotypic and genotypic changes is unnecessary. The far more simple and elegant explanation is the one we both agree on: home planet diversification and evolution. In order to make that work, we have to be presented with a variety of examples. Again, the problem with Discovery is that it ignored modal logic and possible world theory and unnecessarily replaced an established element rather than adding a novel one that could have enriched the conceptual world rather than undermine it.
I dont have a problem with they foreheads of the new Romulans, more with their haircuts, clothing and behaviour! For example, i was kinda okkkkay with the ones on earth not really having a romulan haircut, but then we cut to the guy on the Borg cube and he literally just looks like some guy from 2020 with spiky ears and pointy eyebrows AND he even talks and acts like person from today, wich btw is a problem i have with alooooot of characters from modern Trek, they behave way to much like people from today and not like people from the future, lol.
what?!? Cpt Foley doesn't have a problem with romulan ridges?? Is this trekyards?? The problem I have with romulans using klingon DNA is 2 fold. First, in The Enemy a romulan woud rather die than take a transfusion from a klingon, and second, vulcans were already 3x as strong as humans, and klingons..........arent. Romulans would be weaker if they used klingon DNA
Can we talk about the elephant in the room please...... Specifically how episode 2 of Picard was just terrible. Such boring drawn out exposition and whole scenes that just made no sense - some low lights were..... Romulan reconstruction techniques WTF was that about More holocommunication - it's not Star Wars or G.I Joe My personal pet hate - dizzy camera angles (during a 2 person conversation) and guys can you PLEASE stop with the damn lens flare !!! An F bomb thrown in to be "edgy". This isn't Star Trek......
I never liked the ridges.. it made no sense, they were essentially the same species as Vulcans with different 'beliefs', they hadn't had time to evolve differently.
that's if they've mingled with other vulcans prior to leaving. it's possible they were always a separate group on vulcan, and the changes in beliefs were the final trigger for them to completely separate themselves from the other vulcans. you can see noticeable differences in skull shape and facial features among humans still living on the same planet, 1 race abandoning earth and living on another world for close to 2000 years would have noticeable differences in facial features.
All this JJ/Kurtzman Trek is total nonsense. Best officious original Trek was Star Trek Continues from Vic Mignogna and his team. JJ/Kurtzman Trek only recycle what has been before. No original content or stories, let alone they understand it.
Love what they did there ! This is fixing the discrepancies between the series the right way. And it builds the universe whilst leaving enough room for the spectator's imagination.
I ve always preferred the TOS look of the Romulans over the later TNG look, they looked less 'Vulcan'.
Different parts of Romulus could have different looking people just as we do on Earth
*Cough cough* Tuvok *cough*
@@WestSeaSpirit he was Vulcan
That male romulan was amazing, in my pov.
In the TNG era, Romulans were presented as Proto-Vulcans, Romulans were supposedly one step down the evolutionary ladder. The aliens in Who Watches the Watchers were also Proto-Vulcans, that more closely resembled Romulans than Vulcans.
Maybe the TNG style Romulans had some Reman ancestors.
That's been my rationalization since Nemesis.
@Clogged Nostrils The Remans we see in Nemisis were former mining slaves. Maybe if they grew up in a more ... civilized environment they would be less hideous?
Personally in my head canon I figured the Romulans settled in that system because the native remans were 'kind of like us.' (Or they were just a convenient source of slave labour.)
I think that the Remans were originally a lower class of Romulans that only had mining as a choice of careers. Over time they either started evolving to adapt better to the mines, or they were genetically altered to make better miners. So they were a subgroup of Romulans.
We've seen both smooth headed and the occasional ridged Vulcan in the background. Some of the ridges are fairly faint so maybe it's more prominent among Romulans because they started with a smaller breeding population so the trait started to become more prominent.
Unless one parent was human? (look at Tasha Yar's kid, Sela). And her slightly "Celtic" accent makes it appear she grew up on earth
@@jonnystorm1 Vulcan and presumably Romulan DNA seems to be really dominant in pairings with humans where some Vulcanoid traits will still show after several generations.
I LOVE that they've taken this approach to portraying the Romulans and I think it is a perfect way to portray how they've appeared across different series.
Just like some humans have different identifiable features than others depending where they are from (noses, eyes, etc) it's totally plausible some Romulans have flat foreheads, some have ridges. We should celebrate the departure from all alien races conforming to one dimensional stereotypes.
Let's see TOS, DIS, and TNG style Klingons mixing it up together soon!
Right. Additionally it took the Romulans quite a while to reach Romulas from Vulcan with several periods of settlement, alien contact, and warfare along the way. The ridges in some Romulans could an artifact of this time period through inter species breeding or isolating some populations long enough to create more than one distinctive morphology.
@@hessanscounty3592 Indeed. Some have brought up the fact that Romulans are xenophobic, even racist, to dispel this notion. But I find it difficult to believe that at least some of them have never taken an interest in other humanoid species over their history of thousands of years.
I have to admit I love the Picard mix of Romulans really think it looks good and shows the different races of the species which they are bound to have as we do, good work guys! Really happy with how Picard is shaping up 🖖
Smooth ALL THE WAY.
the ridges were a HUGE misstep
Agreed, the heavy ridges kind of permanently imprint an expression on someone's face, and I think can take away from some of the more nuanced acting. Not to say I haven't enjoyed many of the TNG romulans, I just think it was an unnecessary measure.
@@Jack_Stafford I agree with you that it was unnecessary in the first place, but think these new Romulan forehead makeups are rather tastefully done. (As well as the ones Neville Page designed for Star Trek 2009.) But you're right, the unfortunate side effect of any full forehead appliance is that actors can't really use their eyebrows to emote. But this may have actually worked well for the personality of Klingons since they permanently look as if they're scowling.
I always thought it was just so people could tell the difference between Vulcans and Romulans in TNG. But STP seems to be going back to the whole idea of them looking similar, so it allows them to infiltrate better.
I'm digging the look of the Romulans. I think there's more in the back story of the vineyard Romulans though. Picard didn't get blown up and land up on the family sofa in a failed plot point.
I like the idea that if you have a species numbering in the billions they are not gonna all look the same.
Romulans in Enterprise also had no ridges they had both.
@trekyards The new post Picard show, Ready Room has a feature on the Romulan makeup.
I prefer smooth head like Vulcans. They even made that a plot point in Star Trek 6 so at least this dual forehead possibility links canon. Until Nemesis I thought the ridges were stupid. The introduction of cohabitation with the Remans retconned their ridges for me, and now visual continiuty is restored as far as the Romulans go anyways.
Well, she did slap the fella on the forehead referring to him as a "Northerner", so regional variations on physical appearances do happen even here in reality, like short, rotund people, round headed people with big noses and sticky-outy ears, tall people with bony bodies, etc., genetic diversity and all... :)
TNG Romulans I'm sure I remember having a genetic purity thing going on at times, so I don't think they'd have been happy with mixing in Klingon DNA. I think its just a phenotype that was more common amongst the Vulcan exodites than ti was amongst those who stayed behind.
I just finished the second episode of Picard and they literally showed EVERY single variation of Romulan we've ever seen, from The Original Series, STV and VI, TNG, and JJ- verse. This is the way to go. Let's see every kind of Klingon next!
Guys, i usually enjoy your disecting videos. But siroiusly? Genetic maniplulations, just because not every Romulan has ridges? I mean not every human is a a caucasian male or female (or other). There are different races within humanity as well.
I like both, and these romulans look stellar. Much better than the TNG ones.
I love that they have the TOS and TNG styles. It's funny because growing up I remember my mom hated the TNG ones because they were supposed to be the same as the Vulcans. My head canon is that the group that became Romulans mixed with some other species they conquered early on so there is a slight genetic difference. Of course in the real world the ridges were probably added so casual fans could tell them apart from Vulcans better.
Maybe they interbred another alien species that look earth like humans
I'd need to rewatch the second episode but I'd swear I saw a ridge head on the cube.
Jamie McShane aka Zhaban that's the actor natural hairline and Oral Brady whom is Irish aka Laris, was sheraised in Ireland or the universal translator given her a Irish accent!!
Different racial traits of “Romulan”, like hair or eye color, being short or tall - some romulans have ridges that are more pronounced
Remember Tallera /T’Paal (Robin Curtis) in “Gambit” part 1&2? She was a Vulcan with ridges.
Wasn't she in deep cover as a Romulan, though?
I always felt that Remans and Romulans had bred with the natives of their respective worlds they probably once conquered. The smooth headed Romulans were not from the core of the Empire. They were probably there, we just didn’t see them. I’m sure the smooth headed Romulans were treated far better than their Reman cousins.
One of the ready room episodes went into the Romulan make up process. It was very interesting.
Romulans and Vulcans now lack green hue of their skin.
I always took it as this:
When the Vulcan refugees took over Romulus and began conquering Remus and the other core planets of what became the Romulan Star Empire, many fell in love and interbred with the "locals" Those who were successful slowly adopted the features of their mated races (we actuallty see some of the bat-like Remans with more pronounced temples and forehead ridges, although it's not as common as smooth heads). The Ridged Romulans are thus mixed race, while the smooth foreheaded Romulans are purebreds. It's interesting to note how subtle the ridges are on the male in this episode, suggesting one of his parents was a purebred. COnsidering it only takes five generations to completely eradicate all traces of ethnicity in humans, the period between Enterprise and TNG is plenty of time to theoretically have two or more generations that begin with a purebed and alien, with the offspring marrying an alien each generation until we get the very different look in TNG. Now as for ridged Romulans prior to TNG... that could be a production flub or perhaps some early Romulans were already mixed (civilian) Klingon/Vulcan...
I do like the idea that the Tal Shiar may have also used Klingon DNA to enhance themselves, but considering these were both civilians, it makes sense they would logically have smoother features if that were the case. Also, in Balance, it was made clear that particular crew was chosen to perform a very secret mission. Choosing purebreds made the most sense, as it would help hide the fact that they were responsible for the attacks if their DNA could pass for Vulcan if any remains were found.
Either way, I really feel like they knocked it out of the park in the makeup department. Data's contacts aside, all of the aliens we've seen thus far are absolutely amazing (do you know how hard it is to get nictitating membranes to blink properly on a live actor?) and I can't wait to see how they handle other species (real Klingons, anyone?) or even Borg-ified aliens.
Yeah, I also figured that when the Romulans fled Vulcan and conquered the Remans they probably tried to breed them out. This has happened in Earth's history before, IRL. There is some indication that the Klingons may have done this on planets they have conquered, too. So, there are mixed heritage "ridged" Romulans and more "purebred" Romulans with smoother features. It is also interesting that Remans have telepathic abilities, like Vulcans, and Romulans do not. A dormant Vulcan gene, perhaps?
@@MikeNobody I think the Aboriginal legends about telepathy sort of apply to the Romulans. According to the legend, all humans were once telepathic and always knew everything everyone ele was thinking. Then, one day, someone told the first lie. Because they had lied, their mind became closed so the others couldn't see the deception. Once that happened, humanity snowballed. The only way to be telepathic is to have absolutely no secrets and therefore ahve no need to close your mind off to others.
In the sense of Vulcans vs Romulans, I can picture emotion being the difference. Vulcans are telepathic because they're disciplined, but to communicate telepathically, all barriers must come down in both parties. Since Romulans embrace their emotions, they lack the control needed and thus keep their minds closed off to hide their vices from those around them. Sure, Vulcans can lie, but they always form a logical justification and thus have no real need to hide the fact once discovered.
The Romulans left Vulcan in subwarp ships and eventually inbreeding became a problem so they picked up 'breeding stock' from planets along the way, among them were Klingons. This is why Worf was the only compatible donor for that dying Romulan in TNG 9even though there were Vulcans on the Enterprise). This is also why Romulans don't go through Pon Farr.
All the best comments for STP.....and I wholeheartedly agree. The wigs worn, some over the years looked a skinned tribble and others, who left the replicator on.
I always considered the ridge vs ridgeless as basicly a diff race of romulans like on earth we have white black asian etc...
There have been complainers about Laris' Irish accent, but they also live up twice or more longer than humans, so she may have spent time in Ireland or amongst Irish. Plus, she was a high-level agent who could have spent time undercover on Earth for some time.
Any one remember the Romulan spy posing as on of Starfleet and Vulcan’s most distinguished ambassadors and she devised a plan to make it look like she died at federation responsibility.. I think the episode was called “Data’s Day “ first time for me in the TNG era that I saw a smooth forehead on Romulan Sub-Commander
I really like them having some ridges so they look different to Vulcans.
I really really like the more subtle approach from PICARD, I would have liked her to have some really really subtle ridges aswell, but it doesnt bother me that she doesnt.
High 5 Captain Foley "thank Gawd for hairstyles" !! 😆😆 ✋👏
Maybe the Romulans intermingled with a conquered species in their Empire, giving them the ridges. I love that Picard features both kinds. I like the new ridges best.
Not all humans are the same, so who's to say there aren't ethnic varieties among Romulans as there are with Humans?
Romulan Empire was big. Lots of different looks for different regions. But Picard mixes TOS with TNG and Kelvin universe. Very cool. Makes you wonder if the klingons will be shown in the same manner with TOS, movies/TNG/ENT and discovery versions
The preators ears reflect the sovereign class saucer with the more rounded feel, but the other romulan is definitely channelling a Prometheus vibe to his ears.
The romulan commander and the other woman we see in Picard definitely look like they could be related. Assuming romulan lifespans are similar to vulcans ot could even be her daughter or grand daughter
I’m till curious how Picard is going to deal with the Klingon debacle created by Discovery.
Especially since we say a frame of proper Klingons in picards introduction on federation Gill O’Riley
What do you want to bet that they ignore talking about it completely, since they showed Worf appearing normal, I think it'd be better for them to just ignore it than to try to shoehorn an explanation?
Dale Stafford
Or Clunky dialogue
Guy: Hey, why don’t we see if the Klingons will help?
Guy2: Good luck, since no one has had any contact with any Klingon in 15 years. It’s like they don’t even exist
Guy: Yes...like they don’t even exist.
Guy2: But those tachyon emissions tho
I prefer the low key prosthetic makeup for the Romulans. I feel the TNG/DS9 Romulans were a little heavy on the makeup. I also feel they went a little heavy on the Vulcan makeup in DS9.
I love these 2 Characters but absolutely gutted we lose them in the next episode 😢
it be great if that could cast as a To Milan female for Oacard the actriss, who played the To Milan center in Star Trek Continues. who us the Dauter of the original across who played same role, she looked just like her mom .an did a fantastic job at her role, I for get her name, but she has talent like her mom did
Maybe Laris is a granddaughter of the Romulan Commander from the "The Enterprise Incident"
This what they should have done with the Klingons in DIS. Show a variety - TOS, TMP, TUC, TNG and some new Klingorcs. There could have even been some political intrigue with different versions in different houses. Maybe show how the more ambitious TOS Augment virus Klingons became more predominant by TOS.
This is a GOOD way of being "25% different".
Based on Star Trek novelizations, I've long held that VULCANS themselves have harsher features with harder planes than we typically see in the show, there was just limits to what these shows can do, certainly in the case of TOS. Romulans MIGHT be somewhat more enhanced for being 'rougher, tougher, but only just. Also, as testosterone can give males brow ridges and 'craggy' features, it might be that Romulans get the 'V' forehead formation due to hormonal development as much as genetic reasons.
I would just like to say talk about the ridged Romulans in Enterprise. Those Romulans and in the back ground Remans are from the future. Enterprise was all about the temperal cold war. The ship was controlled from the future. There lies so, they had ridges because they were post TOS not pre.
Well, i think this guy from picard is a perfecht romulan, not so strong forhead, but also not none forhead, it is kind a mix between and thats cool. Maybe over 1800 years on a maybe more wild Romulus than Vulcan changed the Romulans a liite bit
Excellent analysis. Romulans are paranoid distrustful and evil.
Vulcans are very calm and trustful so yeah if a Romulan acts like a Vulcan or vice-versa without the ridges then yes it's very hard to differentiate. I strongly agree!
They explained it in the new episode
Yeah I brought up the fact that the romulans resume their original TOS look and not TNG to Lorereloaded was shocked in his response that he didn't "see it"
I thought the Romulans got the ridges from the Remans.
I was always under the impression that Vulcans were stronger than Klingons. If so it wouldn't make sense that they would use Klingon DNA to enhance themselves.
Personally i prefer the subtle ridge , maybe just a sub species of romulan similar to our Neanderthals lol i dunno . Really liking the show so far .....accept for that damn theme music lol
Which race of Romulans have Irish accents? ;)
What about the accent that sounds like Counselor Troy?
ridges means under the rapotors wings its genetic manpulation so they wont look like vulcans
It’s official, there are “Northern” and “Southern” Romulans now.
well, Enterprise introduced Aenars, a species of Andorians, so anything is possible
I have far more problem with the new Romulan hair styles than I do the Romulan prosthetic. I can accept having differing styles than a bowl cut but there is way too much variance when we have ample examples from both military and civilians that the bowl cut is the predominant hair style. So you should see that remain as a predominant hair style and have variations on that theme (they did one female guard on the Artifact that had a nice variant on the theme) but theres way too much stylistic diversity now.
That said It is nice seeing more elaboration on the Romulans and seeing a logical diversifcation of their personalities so we can get a better fix on what is truly Romulan behavior.
Plot twist, the forehead bump evolved to protect there eyes - specifically since somehow unbeknownst to the Romulans their star was about to explode 3000 years later
Evolution doesn't work like that.
The injecting Klingon DNA to increase their strength argument doesn't really hold up. For one thing, Vulcans are stronger than Klingons, which means that Romulans would already be stronger than Klingons as well. Klingon DNA would make them weaker, not stronger.
The canon makes it clear that the hierarchy for strength among the three species would go - Vulcans, Klingons, then Humans. Aside from canonical statements about the strength differences between them, there are clear demonstrations of Vulcan superiority - Spock crushing a computer and bending metal pipes, for instance, or Spock tossing a Klingon several yards while a teenager (“Search For Spock.”) We have never seen a Klingon display a comparative feat to either.
In fact, it's debatable whether Klingons are even stronger than humans on average. The only "strong" Klingons we ever actually see are Kruge in ST:III, and Worf. But neither seem as strong as Spock or Tuvok. I believe Klingons are tougher than humans due to both their unique physiology and warrior ethos compared to humans. So if we give them the benefit of the doubt, they should be no more than twice as strong as the average human.
There are instances where humans stand up to both species, or where Klingons have defeated Vulcans, which might seem to contradict these facts, but there are a few reasons that they aren’t contradictions at all. Most of the time, these fights are not won through strength, but through environment, weaponry, or technique. When Torres defeats her Vulcan crewmate, for instance, it is through superior combat skill, and he is holding back. He wanted to mate with her, not kill her.
Statements of a species being stronger are not an overall comparison between all individuals of the two races, but rather general ones. The statement that Vulcans are three times stronger than humans, for instance, does not mean all Vulcans are three times stronger than all humans. It means that an AVERAGE Vulcan is three times stronger than an AVERAGE human, and an ATHLETIC Vulcan is three times stronger than an ATHLETIC human. That does not mean that an OLYMPIC LEVEL human could not be stronger than an ATHLETIC Vulcan, however.
When we see humans contending with either species, they are usually extraordinary specimens of physical perfection (like James T. Kirk) and exceptionally skilled in combat (like Kirk, Picard, and Torres), or the individual in question is not at their best (as with Torres’ fight with her crewmate) or taken by surprise (as with Riker’s fight with Klag.)
A Vulcan or a Klingon that's not trained in combat situations wouldn't fare well. On equal footing the edge goes to the Vulcan, even though the Klingon bloodlust could catch the Vulcan off guard. The Vulcan would fight logically and that could be an asset as much as a hindrance as well as the Klingon throwing themselves into the battle. Even though the Vulcan is physically stronger, Klingon anatomy and training is also a factor.
Strength does not necessarily mean in all applications of muscle. For instance, you could work out every day and hone your body to be capable of lifting hundreds of pounds, yet remain incapable of breaking a brick. There are different muscles in the body which handle different tasks (pushing, pulling, lifting, striking, etc.) The metric of “stronger” is not necessarily clear when statements like this are made.
Overall, however, the evidence remains clear, in my opinion. Vulcans are stronger than Klingons, who are stronger than humans - ON AVERAGE.
Romulans never demonstrated superior strength in any series, and even seemed equal to humans, DESPITE their Vulcan lineage. However, Star Trek 2009, Nero picks Kirk up like a rag doll, with one hand. It is reasonable to assume they are as strong as Vulcans, I think, so they must be 3 times as strong as a human.
I think Picard has the best looking iteration of Romulans yet. They look distinct and yet diverse, some having more pronounced ridges and others less so. Very much like humans can have bigger or smaller ears/noses/other facial features. Always loved the TNG look but I have to admit, every Romulan looking and dressing almost identical (even the civilians) does not hold up so well.
I'd like them to have both TOS and TNG romulans to give more evidence to the fact romulans are Vulcan separated by 2000 years
Trekyards ship miniatures archives video didn't show up in notifications even though I have the bell icon on but this video did.
Yeh...You Tube has never favored us :( But you can rest assured that we will have videos every day...so ..tune in every day :P
@@SGUDistantHope Don't worry.. I'm always on the look out for these videos
I'm honestly not too fond of the new ears. They look too much like elf-ears. I quite like the subtle ridges, even though evolutionarily speaking 90yrs isn't enough to explain the difference between TOS and TNG. But it's a relatively minor thing. Unlike the change to the Klingons from TNG to DIS or even from TOS to TNG. But at least we got a good/reasonable explanation for the change from TOS to TNG Klingons.
RRRRRuffles have RRRRidges
👍🏻
You mentioned about a possible genetic influence - like from Klingons. What would you say if they had both TNG and DISCO Klingons in this show?
Yes but why is an Irish Romulan calling people "cheeky feckers"?
Fecker is the Irish version of f*cker .
@@lasarith2 Obviously.
NeonVisual wasn’t sure if you were aware that it was .
They’re different races of Romulans that’s all
I never liked the ridges. The whole point of romulans is that they look just like vulcans. However the way picard is mixing the looks is the right way to go.
Agreed. Only reason Romulans have ridges in TNG is because they are bad guys and need to look more evil? I guess? It's dumb. Romulans are a biologically recent branching off of Vulcans.
Maybe it's just genetic diversity. A Chihuahua and a Mastiff are both dogs but look look wildly different. I can buy this explanation for alien species.
I meant to say why can they not leave the Aliens alone.
The Romulan ridges have always been a sticking point with me. And it wasn't just the ridges. TNG Romulans also had that caked on greenish-grey make-up. Terrible.
I agree with the Captain that all the Romulans have bowl cuts was lame. It was dumb that Vulcans all had bowl cuts in TNG, as well. Vulcans had a diversity of haircuts in TOS and in the movies. Some even had crazy samurai ponytails with shaved heads.
It assumed the audience wasn't smart enough to understand that Romulans looked like Vulcans. It encouraged lazy writing. In any case, how many times in TNG would have it been confusing for the audience? If anything, the ridges confuse matters. So, the Romulans left Vulcan a few thousand years ago and developed ridges? That's not how evolution works. That's pretty basic.
It also just looks silly. Plus, the whole point of Romulans was that they looked exactly like Vulcans. It was honestly more of an issue to me than the various Klingons looks we've had. The Romulans are supposed to look a certain way. At least in Picard they calmed things down with the ridges, so I'm happy with it. I was really glad in ST09 that they dropped the ridges. I didn't hear about anyone being confused about who were Vulcans or who weren't.
I think including both the toned down ridged and the non-ridged was a good call. What would be interesting is if there is an ethnic Vulcan minority that has the ridges and this is where it all comes from.
I have a theory about the Romulans and why they are against AI and synthetic life...........Romulans messed around with it right after the split from Vulcan. They got to the level of synthetic organic life, and then it all went wrong. The synths may be the ones with ridges, and then they bred with original Romulans, so now the entire population has some synth DNA, some more than others.
I think the ridge is just something that not all romulans have. Or at least for some of them it's so unpronounced it just looks flat. We know those guys were vulcans not so long ago, several thousands of years in fact, and we know humans didn't really change in that amount of time. So we can only assume romulans engaged in some sort of artificial selection, eugenics and stuff. And while the whole "nazi" thing is more about cardassians, we know romulans like that stuff as well.
Why are they always messing with the Aliens . Why can they not live the look of the Aliens alone.
I prefer the subtle ridges for Romulans. It makes them distinct from Vulcans. I never really liked the extreme ridges from TNG etc. It feels like too much of an evolution for the species considering that the split between the two is only a few thousand years.
what if the ridges are pre-Surak Vulcan trait. the more emotional the more/bigger your ridges. stop the hate and control your emotions, your ridges go away.
civilian Romulans are filled with worry about being outed/controlled by the state, brings out the ridges. if not then undergound back alley surgery to give you ridges. Smooth headed Romulans can hide like the pro unification crowd.
No species in star trek should be monotypic.
This is one of the largest issues that ST has always had when displaying other races. It is also why the Klingons in Discovery, not only are okay and acceptable, but work.
Once you start taking these variations and start moving them outside of their natural habitats, over time, due to the nature of the environment, in this case, new planets, where gravity, atmospheric conditions, radiation etc.etc. over time would cause changes within the group.
If we take races like the Klingons and Romulans who are spread out over hundreds if not thousands of planets, we should see an overall similarity while still having diversity in their appearance, more so as time progresses, something that we know happens here on Earth with our own species.
So no, not all Klingons should look the same, nor should all Romulans. If anything the longer the races have been living separated from their home planet the greater the variation should be.
On Earth we do not have enough genetic separation to have subspecies, in ST with the aforementioned races over time there would be.
So if anyone has an issue with canon, or them not looking the same, they do not need to, and should not. There does not need to be an in-universe explanation for any variation.
Evolution requires at least hundreds of thousands of years for any significant change across species in complex organisms. It also requires a survival advantage. This is true for humans in the real world. The fact that Romulans would be spread out over several planets or thousands would not alter one set of population and distinguish it from from another in a drastic why such as the "TNG" Klingons and the Discovery ones. The causes you propose such as gravity, atmospheric conditions, radiation certainly may have affects but in large time frames as mentioned. Lower gravity would decrease bone density and that happens quickly but it doesn't alter genes in the way you are proposing. There would also have to be a evolutionary advantage for decreased bone density.
I think the better explanation is that simply that the group of Vulcans that left Vulcan thousands of year prior were a subset population of Vulcans such as Neanderthals or Devonians are to homo sapiens. (The Mintakins in TNG, which were a primitive "proto-Vulcan" species had ridges.) Because of interbreeding with Spock like Vulcans or "regular" Vulcans their species were diverse in appearance. A reason could be why regular Vulcans don't have ridge looking Vulcans is because those traits would have been absorbed in a large population if they mixed, a recessive trait. Another reason could be that the "Romulan"-Vulcans left during the Vulcan war precisely because they were a oppressed people besides waring with other Vulcans. Where the Vulcans were far more violent then the Romulan-Vulcans, and embracing of logic was their salvation.
As far as Discovery Klingons, it would have made more sense if they were depicted as a small population of oppressed Klingons that were the Klingon "Neanderthals." That way, the established Klingons could have been depicted or at least alluded to what out creating a logical negation. Even so, the drastic change and difference in their appearance was completely unnecessary.
@@Rabbithole8
Your first point does stand true, with the exception of the time scale, we know this through decades of fruit fly studies.
The Romulans and Klingons in any of the series are not that drastically removed from each other, with the exception of the TOS Klingons, which when needing to be removed from reality - '60s, budget, abilities- and have an in universes explanation, they did quite well. We were never exposed to the full diversity of the species, as a result when a new show has changed the physical characteristics of the species, all we can do is accept it. Our sample size of exposure has and continues to be small for a population of tens of billions. How the many among the fan base are treating what has been presented, is similar to if aliens came to Earth, landed in a remote generally isolated area then designated that those humans are how all humans are, then upon exposure to other groups reject that these new groups are human.
We have no information on the variations among the species, and variation of population sizes and growth rates, before leaving their home planet. Radiation exposure and environmental factors can lead to changes in the genetic material in short time frames, where offsprings genetics are impacted. Even with a limited timespan, changes within a species can occur if the right situations exist.
Your examples, fit in with mine, even your explanation for Discovery Klingons. All we are doing is being exposed to a greater sample size of their population, and in using real-world researched patterns of other species to fill in the reasoning of the changes we are seeing.
You say unnecessary, i say it is the opposite. What we had been presented with was always limiting and far too homogeneous. These changes are necessary and line up with what we know of known populations and the variations within them.
@@mikestoast You made a straw man argument because this is what I wrote:
Evolution requires at least hundreds of thousands of years for any significant change across species in complex organisms. It also requires a survival advantage. This is true for humans in the real world. The fact that Romulans would be spread out over several planets or thousands would not alter one set of population and distinguish it from from another in a drastic why such as the "TNG" Klingons and the Discovery ones. The causes you propose such as gravity, atmospheric conditions, radiation certainly may have affects but in large time frames as mentioned. Lower gravity would decrease bone density and that happens quickly but it doesn't alter genes in the way you are proposing.
I didn't state that small changes don't occur with environmental changes including radiation. However, the type of drastic change you were proposing only can occur over hundreds of thousands of years if not millions. Of course mutations are passed on from one generation to the next, what is called germline (germ line). The type of mutation that occurs with say higher levels of radiation is sporadic or somatic mutation: it is an acquired mutation. This type of mutation can lead to cancer. Other causes of somatic mutation is diet and hormonal imbalance etc. The cell usually repairs these kinds of mutations or it will "commit suicide" through what is called apoptosis. If a germline is beneficial for adaptation, it will spread through natural selection until it is wide spread through a population and this penetrance alters that species. Therefore, for drastic visible changes to take place would mean that a continued enhancing of that trait would be selected for. The better the trait is at adapting, the better versions would be selected. In the radiation on a new planet example, the Klingon, let's say, that can adapt better to the higher radiation would be selected for. That is, if the radiation is higher than usual but not so high to kill off all Klingons. Again, any drastic change would occur over large time frames. Your Star Trek species multi-planetary evolution doesn't fit with how evolution works. It is also unnecessary because there is a better explanation.
The other explanation that I offered, evolutionary diversification on a home planet, makes sense. We both seem to agree here. To be clear, I also prefer a diverse representation of a species. I think smooth headed Romulans and ridged ones are great as long as the explanation is a sound one, like the one I proposed. The same goes for Klingons. What I think was unnecessary was to change the Klingons so drastically without presenting them as one variation of Klingon that existed among the others. Discovery went back to committing the same kind of over simplification because it didn't include the other types. On top of that, it was unnecessary because no one would have uttered anything like, "Where are the drastically altered Klingons?" It was unnecessary in that sense.
@@Rabbithole8
There is no straw man argument.
Time scale is not the important factor, but reproduction rate and distribution of the traits through the species. There is a large unknown factor, in that we do not have any firm time scales for when these species started to leave their planets. Survival advantage does not come into play for species that have developed to a point where they can counteract (tools, shelter, clothing etc) natural forces. There is nothing drastic about the changes to the Romulans or the Klingons in any of the shows that has been presented. As to other real-world examples separating populations from the original colony, biological and genetic variations can present themselves in short order. Who said anything about lower gravity? you keep bringing it up when it was not in my original argument. Gravity in general, yes, as a factor for change, be it higher, lower, or irregular. This is space, and the universe of ST, where there are anomalies everywhere.
It has always been a mix of taking real-world scientific research and mixing it with the bombastic of Star Trek.
I agree that as far as we know, any drastic change requires time, now bring it back to Star Trek and combine that with the craziness of space that we have been presented with. Thankfully this show has not shown us any drastic changes in any of the characters. It is always presented us with a small sample size of any alien population that is essentially homogeneous, where this is a result of budgeting and not a reflection of real-world genetic variation within species.
Take those variations, and much like on earth have groups set out for different worlds and different conditions, examples of which i listed, where over 100's of generations, that variation would present itself in a random speculative way from our perspective. On top of all of that, we are still using earth-based genetic reasoning on a completely alien species, yet another factor to take into account.
I fully agree with evolutionary diversification on a home planet as it i was part of my initial argument. That it is never any one thing but a combination of all the known factors. I do not think they needed to present them as one variation of Klingon as it would have been too much handholding, people should have been able to make deductions on their own, through their education, real-world experiences and understanding the nature of show production. In hindsight that appears to be wrong by how man people still have issues.
I would agree more with your end argument if we had not been presented with an exactly similar situation in the past, the Klingons of TMP from TOS. No explanation was given for 20 years, and the fans grew to accept. They were presented as Klingons, with no mention of there being others. Within Star Trek, we already have precedent for this kind of change.
@@mikestoast
I brought up gravity as a generic variable, one that has a great impact on organisms especially bone density. It was simply brought up as one variable among others.
You wrote: Time scale is not the important factor, but reproduction rate and distribution of the traits through the species.
Actually time scale is an important factor in evolutionary changes for complex organisms. You are making a category error when you compare fruit fly evolutionary change to complex organisms. For one thing, the number of offspring of fruit flies produce compared to say mammals is in thousands to how many a mammalian species can suckle at any given time which is certainly under 100. For primates, or hominids that number is far less. Also, the higher the cognitive ability the higher the dependence upon the mother. Furthermore, the genome of complex organisms aren't as malleable as lower ones. Mammals can't grow a limb that was cut off, for example. There is not indication in Star Trek that Romulans and Klingons have offspring in the thousands nor that they aren't complex organisms like cats, dogs, apes and humans.
The actual trait that is beneficial and is selected alters populations of a species over time. The individuals that carry the beneficial trait are more successful and pass on the trait to their offspring. Small changes such as slightly lower or higher body temperature etc. can occur over thousands if not hundreds of years due to diet and other factors. However, drastic phenotypic and genotypic changes require large time scales with environmental pressures selecting for advantageous traits.
You are correct in that reproduction "rate" is important and of course distribution of selected traits through a species is a necessary condition. I certainly didn't state otherwise. However, the idea that you a proposing that a large scale time frame isn't a necessary component in the evolutionary process for complex organisms is simply wrong. Time scales of hundreds of thousands to millions is a necessary condition in the process of diversification of complex organism to the scale we are talking about. An illusive example is Homo Erectus to Neanderthals, Devonians, and Homo Sapiens. Please cite any evolutionary biologist that disagrees.
As far as Romulans are concerned, we are told in Star Trek that they split off from the Vulcans thousands of years before TOS and the other series. Again, any change in their genotype which would alter their appearance across species would have had to be the result of adaptation to environmental forces. Any change would require selected traits passed down over multiple generations. In complex organisms this requires at least hundreds of thousands of years. In addition, the fact that we also have species that have technology also mitigates and certainly diminishes the biological need for adaptation.
To get from TNG Klingons to Discovery Klingons is even more problematic. The proposition that we ought to project our real world knowledge of concepts like evolution onto a series like Star Trek is a sound one. That's what any viewer naturally does. If a viewer has knowlege in a particular area, he or she would expect that the conceptual world would operate according to those understoond rules such as biologically evolution. This is known as "the principle of minimal departure." We expect those principles to hold true until we are told otherwise.
In a series that is a science fiction genre show like Star Trek, we then expect plausible answers. Either that, or we can accent to suspend our disbelief based upon factors such as "the 60's budget." However, once DS9's "Trials and Tribble-ations," mixed TOS and TNG type Klingons it asserted that within that conceptual world at least two types of Klingons exist. The just "use your imagination" was removed from the table. Now it is up to the writers to offer an answer that maps onto our real world, more or less. If not, it isn't science fiction but a bad fantasy genre show.
The proposition that TNG type Klingons left Qo'noS hundreds of thousands if not millions of years ago and evolved into related species is ludicrous. Klingon technology itself would have been far more advanced than the Federation's technology. The necessary evolutionary time scale is absent and also given the fact that Klingon technology would have mitigated changes is also an important factor. Therefore, none of this works as explanations. Plugging your non-scientific explanation of evolution without large time frames also doesn't work.
Again, Romulan or Klingon evolving off-world resulting in such drastic phenotypic and genotypic changes is unnecessary. The far more simple and elegant explanation is the one we both agree on: home planet diversification and evolution. In order to make that work, we have to be presented with a variety of examples. Again, the problem with Discovery is that it ignored modal logic and possible world theory and unnecessarily replaced an established element rather than adding a novel one that could have enriched the conceptual world rather than undermine it.
I dont have a problem with they foreheads of the new Romulans, more with their haircuts, clothing and behaviour!
For example, i was kinda okkkkay with the ones on earth not really having a romulan haircut, but then we cut to the guy on the Borg cube and he literally just looks like some guy from 2020 with spiky ears and pointy eyebrows AND he even talks and acts like person from today, wich btw is a problem i have with alooooot of characters from modern Trek, they behave way to much like people from today and not like people from the future, lol.
Perhaps it's like human brow ridges, some people have bigger ridges others don't - it's just luck of the draw....
i still fear they might totally be evil for some reason
Perhaps... cranial reconstruction.
Forget about the artistic evolution, please.
Uggghhh okay. The episode is about makeup
The 2 Romulans living at Picard's house are my favourite characters on the show.
what?!? Cpt Foley doesn't have a problem with romulan ridges?? Is this trekyards??
The problem I have with romulans using klingon DNA is 2 fold. First, in The Enemy a romulan woud rather die than take a transfusion from a klingon, and second, vulcans were already 3x as strong as humans, and klingons..........arent. Romulans would be weaker if they used klingon DNA
I have been VERY impressed with Picard! GREAT writing, costumes and makeup!
At least they got rid of the TNG generic haircut.
Can we talk about the elephant in the room please...... Specifically how episode 2 of Picard was just terrible. Such boring drawn out exposition and whole scenes that just made no sense - some low lights were.....
Romulan reconstruction techniques WTF was that about
More holocommunication - it's not Star Wars or G.I Joe
My personal pet hate - dizzy camera angles (during a 2 person conversation) and guys can you PLEASE stop with the damn lens flare !!!
An F bomb thrown in to be "edgy".
This isn't Star Trek......
Well we had not seen it when we filmed this episode :)
I never liked the ridges.. it made no sense, they were essentially the same species as Vulcans with different 'beliefs', they hadn't had time to evolve differently.
that's if they've mingled with other vulcans prior to leaving.
it's possible they were always a separate group on vulcan, and the changes in beliefs were the final trigger for them to completely separate themselves from the other vulcans.
you can see noticeable differences in skull shape and facial features among humans still living on the same planet, 1 race abandoning earth and living on another world for close to 2000 years would have noticeable differences in facial features.
in Fact those humans might not even or be barely recognizable as human after 2000 years on a different world.
All this JJ/Kurtzman Trek is total nonsense. Best officious original Trek was Star Trek Continues from Vic Mignogna and his team. JJ/Kurtzman Trek only recycle what has been before. No original content or stories, let alone they understand it.
I liked when Romulans all had similar unique to them hairstyle. They looked alien. Now they look too much like Humans with human like hairstyles.
The whole Romulans are Vulcans by genetics is ridiculous! We’re chimpanzees by genetics what does that have to do with anything??