Does Balance have any thoughts on the ABB Dynafin and other fully featherable Voith Schneider type propulsion systems? Obviously not for near term use, but for longer term adoption. Cheers. FWIW, I'm surprised that no one has done a hybrid drive that is T shaped with a diesel and an electric drive/generator on the top of the T and the prop on the bottom of the T. Obviously you would need 3 clutches for each terminus of the T.
That's why it's not done: added complexity and maintenance for relatively low benefit. The Integrel E-Drive electric pancake motor between the ICE clutch and gearbox is a very good solution in terms of packaging, installation, integration and function.
Regarding the T-Shape: I am not an engineer and this would be out of my skill set to know! We decided to work with Integrel based on both 5 years of experience but also the intensive RD they have invested in over the past few years.
@@balancecatamarans By t shape he means feeding a gearbox from both motors, via clutches, and having a clutch on the output of the gearbox to be able to turn the gearbox (and prop) from either motor or disengage the prop from the geabox to turn the electric motor as a generator. The clutched electric motors of Integrel E-Drive or Beta Marine hybrid are much simpler solutions. Simpler is almost always better. The props he mentioned are horizontally turning props best suited for tugboats and would probably foul a lot on a sailboat, in addition to being vastly more complex. Again, simpler is usually better.
Thanks Phill, very interesting and honest! One question. What is the diesel consumption related to the Integral system? Can it generate 13-15 kw at 1500 rpm ?? Than it should be aprox 1,5 l diesel? Thanks and regards from Klaus
The electric side of the generation is probably 90+% efficient. If the Diesel is 30% efficient, then 1,5 liters of Diesel would turn into about 4.3 Kilowatt-hours of electricity. 1 liter of diesel has about 10.7 kwh of energy. Energy is measured in Joules or Watt-hours. Watts are a measure of power, not energy. So 4.3 kWh at 14 kW at 1500 rpm would require running the Diesel for about 1/3 of an hour; 20 minutes. Power * time = energy.
Correction, the above would only apply if the Diesel was only being used to power the E-Drive as generator. If some of the energy from running the Diesel also turns the prop and moves the boat, then less of the energy will go into the battery. The latter could depend on whether the gearbox can be left in neutral and not turn the prop.
Klaus, it is too early for me to offer answers to questions such as this without real world testing. Of course it also depends on the size of the diesel being used. I was able to get about 6.5 KW from 45 HP Yanmars on our own boat at 1,500 RPM. That was the sweet spot for the most charge for the money. The new E-drive is far more efficient but I would not venture to risk a promise here yet on What you could get on a 45 Yanmar. Right now we are working with Balance owners to get real world data on boat speed in flat waters at various RPM’s using specific props and engines to fine range calculations at various speeds using the electric motors. What’s clear is that the E-drives are very efficient based on serious RD testing at Integral over the past few years.
Thanks for the video and the knowledge that you have provided. Could you tell us the cost difference of just a desiel engine and a combo engine system. Not just the cost to purchase but instalation, maintance Extra batteries etc. Any knowledge. On how much a boat uses the desiel engine and the electric engine.
Diesel would usually only be used for long passages with no wind. With good weather planning, most of those can be avoided, so you could mostly sail and motor less. Electric drive can be used for most motoring: leaving an anchorage, motoring to a mooring or harbor, etc. Therefore Diesel would be used much less often, saving fuel costs. A boat needs a battery bank. With some electric drive, the bank should be larger. The battery bank should be sized appropriately. The size depends on the expected loads, amount of solar, and many other variables.
@@LoanwordEggcorn thanks for your reply. I am interedted to find out how long or engine running hours you could buy for the additional cost for a combo system.
@@Bruce-f9l If you mean the electric motor, its running time is limited by battery capacity, solar generation, generator. However if you needed to run the generator to move the boat, you would just use the Diesel engine and move it directly with the Diesel. That's an advantage of a parallel hybrid system. If you mean the running time of the Diesel, that's limited by fuel capacity, including extra cans/bags. Or do you mean something else?
@@LoanwordEggcorn i enquiring abouy the additional costs of the electrical component of the motor. Ie the electrical motor additional cost of instalation extra batteties solat panels etc. Is it econimical if you only use it to get in and out of the marina.
@@Bruce-f9l A Windelo 54 recently did two atlantic crossings with a serial hybrid electric drive and never used their Diesel generator. The potential exists to not burn much Diesel, so fuel costs could be very low.
In principle you could easily double the power by stacking two electric motors and controllers in parallel. In practice you'd probably never need it. How often do you use a full 80 horsepower on a (sailing) catamaran? (Or charge at 60 kW?)
The E-Drive 15 system will be able to output higher power for up to 120 seconds only. Larger systems are planned, however they are unlikely to be air cooled.
The more performance the cat, the smaller the motors you need. An 80HP is not enough for many of the behemoth charter cats over 50 feet. But a 45 HP works just fine on a Balance 48 or 52.
I'm excited to see the evolution of Integrel technology. You mentioned that the electric engine is air cooled. Are there sensors or other controls to prevent it from overheating?
Yes, the E-Drive system is designed with safety as top priority. The system monitors the voltage, current, and temperature of all components, including the batteries (independent of the battery management system). If operational limits are exceeded, the system ramps back power. If safety limits are exceeded, generation or drive is temporarily suspended and a warning shows on the Integrel Touchscreen.
Thanks for the conversation. The Integrel E-Drive looks like a very nice solution. Looks like an axial flux permanent magnet 3 phase AC motor. Looks like it's on the gearbox side of the clutch so the electric drive can move the boat without the Diesel engaged at all (clutch disengaged). This may mean that it can't act as a generator unless it's also turning the prop though. (If so, you NEED MORE SOLAR.) (A fun part of this is the control system that manages the power flows and clutch.) Regarding hydrogeneration on a smaller boat, the controllers can be set to low power, so that the speed reduction is minimal, like a half knot or so. It becomes more efficient at higher water speeds, which coincidentally is why hydrogeneration (especially from an electric drive) is much more practical on a performance boat. Phil, you need more solar on the boats. Please consider walkable panels like the Solbians. If they're good for IMOCA and Jules Verne Trophy boats, they're good for Balance. With more solar, you can operate house loads, including refrigeration and air conditioning without running the generator. MANY cruisers are ALREADY doing this on their own boats with more solar.
@@jasoncrawford6447 Since the clutch is between the Diesel and the electric motor, the Diesel can be declutched while the electric motor moves the boat, i.e. electric propulsion only mode. The electric motor can also generate electricity when the Diesel is moving the boat. When both Diesel and motor are clutched together and the gearbox is engaged in gear, the Diesel can move the boat while the motor acts as a generator by creating a load on the Diesel. If the electric motor tries to turn faster than the Diesel, then its torque helps move the boat faster, i.e., both motors working together in parallel to move the boat faster than the Diesel alone. It can generate power without moving the boat if the gearbox can be disengaged while the electric motor is clutched to the Diesel. That's possible, but depends on the gearbox design. I.e., Is neutral really neutral with the gears disengaged?
We have had more than a few bad experiences with soft panels at Balance, installed for customers at their request. Read carefully the Solbian cautions on overheating and burning! And the paltry warranty life! But the biggest issue is that they perform much more poorly than glass panels and their performance degrades quickly. Without air under them solar panels all perform worse too. Anyways, we can install soft panels if customers are fully aware of the negatives and we are not liable for a burnt hard top. But you need a lot more soft panels to do what a glass one does, let me tell you. As it is, 2,400 watts of glass panels are enough to take a Balance from Cape Town to Florida without any additional charging if there is an engine or alternator failure. One of our customers proved this some years ago when he had two Balmar alternator defect failures.
@@balancecatamarans Yes, but have you actually tried the Solbians? Their live performance can be seen in some of the Windelo videos. I think it's a Victron energy display. There may be other decent walkable panels; I point out Solbian as one example. A downside of glass panels is that it limits where one can step.
The flat shape of the motors suggests they are axial flux. Many modern AC motors are highly efficient: axial flux, reluctance, induction, permanent magnet, etc. Motor and controller efficiencies combining above 90% are common now.
Beta Marine is an engine manufacturer. I believe some of their customers install Bell Marine electric motors to them. I am not well familiar with this product, but we ruled it out for Balance because we wanted the global service and support of Yanmar, the support from Integrel, and only wanted to use a sail-drive system as I sought to explain in my video.
@@balancecatamarans Beta has a hybrid with a toothed belt electric motor clutched to the output shaft. It's their own product as used by HH and has their own controller integrated seamlessly with the throttles. It's on Beta's UK web site under "hybrid propulsion", and is now on the water. It does look like it may be the Bell motor. Integrel's E-Drive is definitely a better fit for what you're doing. But the point is that more hybrids are appearing.
Curious to know whether this system from integral was developed in collaboration with Yanmar? I’d imagine that when used as POWERFUL generators, there’s quite a bit of extra load on the engine.
Load is load, whether it's turning a generator or turning a prop. The E-Drive controller needs to manage the engine speed and torque, etc. Its software can be tuned to different combustion engines and adjusts to different operating conditions. According to Integrel's web site, E-Drive is currently compatible with Yanmar, Volvo, Nanni, Beta, Vetus combustion engines.
Interesting - main concern with this installation is how to repair/replace this unit if/when it fails? The current system is rather bolt-on to the Yanmar engines so relatively easy to access to repair / replace, which has been important for Gen1 systems like ours. General issue for boat builders with early generation boats - fail to understand and anticipate how systems are accessed to repair / replace.
@@balancecatamarans good to hear it's a bolt-on system and (hopefully) won't require removal / movement of engine or sail-drive to remove / replace the unit, or impede engine operation (as in currently we just shut down controller and remove belt to remove from engine operation).
if you charge the batteries so fast then very important to take a look a tha very aspect of charching. porobably the batery bank will need a cooling system, is not?
It depends on the battery chemistry, battery construction, etc. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, which are becoming universal in boats and some cars, can be charged at 1C with no problem, so a reasonably large battery bank would have no problem with this charging rate. They're also among the least sensitive to temperature.
David, it would be hard to retrofit an E-drive on a Balance because the engine bay bed has to be expanded a bit to make it fit properly. You would be best to add on the existing Integrel alternators.
With these and enough battery storage you could drive the boat 3 hours on electric and then use diesel for an hour while charging the banks back up. I think that is the goal. I see they will need liquid cooling to achieve that. It's all about how much diesel you can save.
You're forgetting that you can also charge the battery bank using solar and hydrogeneration. Purely electric sailboats use the electric motor to leave the dock/mooring/anchorage, raise the sails, leave the electric motor engaged to hydrogenerate, and recharge all the energy used to motor, simply by sailing. After the battery is recharged, they disengage the hydrogeneration while continuing to sail. It's motoring by wind power. Back on shore they can recharge from shore power. At anchor, they recharge (and power house loads) from solar or windmill, etc. (A lot more people are going purely solar now, since it's silent and so cheap.)
@@LoanwordEggcorn you can get caught in a 7-10 day no wind area in the ocean. if that happens you can motor only dependent on how much solar you have. if you have 4500 watts of solar and can charge for 12 hours that would fill a 50kw battery bank but what loads does it take to run fridges, navigation instruments, water maker etc... Lets say you have 35 kw left to use a day to motor if each engine uses 7kw to go 5 knots that is 2.5 hours of motoring and you would go 12.5 Nautical miles in a day. I would want duel diesels right now even if I had 250kw of battery bank and 8kw of solar. Most likely you in a 10 day windless area you would run your engine 1 hour to achieve 2-3 hours of electric sailing. Right now 125kw of battery bank is perfect. you get smaller diesel engines 2 30hp or whatever it takes to achieve 8 knots of speed. Then only have enough diesel to make it 500nm of motoring which gives you 1500nm of total motoring. Then to make up for the difference in battery weight you have smaller water tanks. That is the minimal. I do not know enough about kite sails and if they work when you only have 2-3 knots of wind at water level, which means 4-10 knots 85 feet up. That would be the only thing that might make a pure electric boat possible.
@@dc1544 Agree Diesels are needed for long becalmed passages. However, outside of the doldrums, and with good weather routing, those can be minimized. (And yes, we know weather routing is not perfect. But it helps most of the time.) Was not suggesting a purely electric boat for world cruising, but in most places people sail, and with weather planning, motoring can be minimized. It also helps to have a boat that sails efficiently in light wind like a Balance or other performance boats. Regarding battery sizing, it's about optimizing things. If you have more solar, you need less battery. If you have smaller water tanks, but larger solar, you can run the watermaker more often. Etc. You don't mention the size of the boat, but for say a 40 to 50 foot cat, I would never put hundreds of kWh of battery in it if it had enough solar, hydrogeneration and a Diesel with enough electric power output. 50 kWh should be plenty for typical house loads and typical electric motoring to and from anchorages, harbors, moorings, etc. I'm a huge proponent of electrification, but Diesel fuel is still more energy dense than battery, even with the inefficiencies of internal combustion. So I'd suggest that more Diesel fuel and a relatively smaller (but still large) battery bank is appropriate. It really depends on the boat and solar and weather. A Windelo 54 recently did two Atlantic crossings with solar and hydrogeneration to (charge the battery to) power house loads and never started the serial hybrid Diesel generator once. The Windelos have about 1 to 4.5 kW of solar. Given how cheap solar is, I would definitely use more of it than Phil does. And walkable panels. Yes, they're less efficient, but they're far more practical for areas where you would like to walk to tend to sails.
@@dc1544 Integrel/Balance haven't published range yet, but early estimates indicate more than double the range you have quoted above for at least one of the Balance cats.
@@jasoncrawford6447 I posted 1500 nm is that what you are referring to? I think a bout really only needs 1000 nm from engine power. Some are even saying 500nm range with engine power( gas and electric combined). Now also if you can sail 4 knots while regening then you can use 1 engine to get you up to 6 knots. especially if sun is out and you can replace the 4-5kw you are using to add 2 knots of speed. I think using as much electric power as possible without burning any diesel. replacing 1 diesel you can add 30kw of batteries now replacing that fuel tank weight when full also means you can add more solar above dingy and add another 30kw of battery also. So with 1 hybrid engine with 100 gallons of diesel, 120kw of battery bank and 4kw of solar you should be able to cruise the world. We will see soon enough as others are setting up there boats like that now.
Hybrids can regenerate back to store energy back to batteries to go further distances,but if using desiel and the boat is low on design it also won't travel far
Diesel is more dense than lithium batteries but diesel is only 40% efficient against batteries at >90%, still doesn't 'balance' things out but it is not quite 22 x better, the Integral systems are superb though.
No, the ~20x more dense number is including conversion efficiencies. Unconverted to useful shaft HP, diesel is about 38.6MJ/L, lithium is about 0.75MJ/L. With that said, efficiency goes a long way in being green. A light, sleek boat uses a lot less diesel.
@@KeithStrang Mass usually matters more than volume. Diesel fuel is about 12.7k Wh/kg. Lithium ion batteries are on the about 200 Wh/kg. Diesel engines are heavy and have less than 40% efficiency (and lots of maintenance). Electric motors (of the same power) are light and have 95+% efficiency.
There is not a change that the efficiency balances things out. There is a reason we don't have electric freight trucks over diesel. To get an electric truck half the range of a diesel, the electric truck is so heavy that there is no margin left for actual freight. Even electric cars with half the range of normal cars need special tires to handle the weight. And then you think it's viable on boats that are 1000x more sensitive to weight? No way.
That's a good point. With the Edrive as efficient as it is, it could be argued you can use less solar. I think most want enough solar to operate the boat during daylight hours without resorting to additional charging. But it is true, the new E-drive generates a very fast and powerful charge off the engines.
One very important thing most fail to realize [In regard to all electric boat] BATTERIES can NOT be charged and discharged an unlimited number of times. They can be charged/discharged only a certain number of times before their efficiency diminishes tremendously. Which means the COST of replacing those batteries for new batteries for the sake of always running solely on electric propulsion would be astronomical. BATTERY TECHNOLOGY simply is not there yet. Solar technology is not there yet either. I like what Integral has accomplished with their technology to at least provide a cost effective option to use while we wait for battery and solar technology to improve dramatically.
@@WyckoffMode Current Lithium Iron Phospate batteries can be charged thousands of cycles. In typical boat use, that would be many decades of use. Your information is very out of date. SunPower solar cells are 24% efficient. That's not too far from the Shockley-Queisser limit.
@@WyckoffMode current generation LFP cells can do 6000+ full cycles and still have 80% of their initial range.. fir the amount of use most yachts get, that's probably longer life than the yacht
@@timtravelnomad Correct. It would be multiple decades of boat life. When the boat is scrapped, the batteries would be recycled, but probably still have useful life even then. In short, the batteries would last much longer than the boat, and most boats last decades.
It is better than two diesel generators and two electric motors in my view. With two diesels you at least get excellent propulsion redundancy. Prior to our adoption of the Integrel alterators we had to install a diesel generator and two motors. But a cat without two diesels would be very hard to dock too!
Electric motors in a hybrid system usually can be used as a generator. Integrel's E-Drive can. Most sailboats also recharge the battery bank from solar, shore power, hydrogeneration, etc. If you're referring to a serial hybrid, the solution is to use the same type of electric motor as a generator attached to the Diesel. The electric drive motors are highly efficient. When the same type of motor is used as a (separate) generator (powered from the Diesel), it's also highly efficient.
As far as I know all Balance catamarans have sail drives including this latest one. That is a cheap short cut and puts a bl**dy great hole in the bottom of the boat and they are costly to maintain and service. Anything with a sail drive is a deal breaker for me. Just take the engines out of the very back of the boat and put in shaft drives! Balance is not alone in this. They mostly all do it but they are careful to skip over the costs and of course the fact they can SINK you. Two notable exceptions are Antares and Windelo.. Windelo have room for shafts because they are electric motors. Antares have the weight centred thus they have room for shafts.
Geoff, we use sail drives because they are better for our needs. They are not any cheaper than shafts. We do not like engines in living spaces, or under bunks, and prefer they are in watertight living spaces. Why on earth you think a saildrive poses a sinking risk is beyond me! You can put a hole in the engine room of a Balance and the water will only come up 8 to 10 inches as it is a watertight space. A shaft poses far more "sinking danger" with the "dripless seals" that drip and the cutlass bearings that wear down. They are in the boat itself, not in a watertight compartment.
I have read your reply and don’t agree. Saildrives are expensive to maintain and a pain in the ass. The new HH 44 has shafts. Why? Plus the energy has to change direction before it gets to the water. Engines in the back put weight in the back where you don’t want it. Take a look at Palm Beach power boats where the engines and weight are centred. Mark Richards knows his stuff. He won Sydney to Hobart 8 or 11 times. How many have you won? The sail drives are quick and easy for you. I have got manners so I will allow you your opinion. Please allow me mine.
@@balancecatamarans Water tight bulk heads are a really good idea. Now let's see, that's right Titanic had those! Sail drives are maintenance hogs. But that comes after they have sailed away over the horizon. If you hit something hard you have a hole in your boat. I don't ever want a hole in my boat, ever! HH catamarans 44 has shafts with their hybrid. Windelo has shafts with their electric motors. They have the room for shafts or sail drives and chose shafts. I have yet to hear of someone falling overboard from a bedroom whilst working on an engine. Boats cost enough to run as it is without the extra cost of poor design/short cuts via a Sail Drive. Just design the engine/weight forward and use shaft drives that have been around for ever and proven themselves to be efficient and robust and maintenance friendly. I don't need to tell you that putting engines right at the far aft end of the hulls is far from ideal from a point of view of. weight distribution and crew safety at sea, yet so many do it. I know why you do it. Because it is quick and easy.
Surely Integrel Solution's E-Drive will compromise an engine manufacturer's warranty positioned between the engine & gearbox ? Makes all servicing & repairs an expensive business. Who is going to do it globally and is an expert in this new technology ? I can imagine all sorts of trouble if there is a failure. How much testing are you doing on this system on the water ? It just adds risk to my boat.
All new technology poses risk. We ventured out to test and refine the Integrel Alternators five years ago and now everyone else is using them. It will be the same with the E-drive. But we have worked so closely with them for years and they stand behind their products and offer great support and service. If someone wants to get a Balance without E-drive they can.
Balance never ceases to amaze me. Always on the cutting edge.
Great talk! Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great decision, this kit is awesome.
Thank you!
Great bit of kit even for a mono hull. Good redundancy to escape a lee shore in a storm when the diesel decides to be disagreeable.
love it. Want one..
Does Balance have any thoughts on the ABB Dynafin and other fully featherable Voith Schneider type propulsion systems? Obviously not for near term use, but for longer term adoption. Cheers.
FWIW, I'm surprised that no one has done a hybrid drive that is T shaped with a diesel and an electric drive/generator on the top of the T and the prop on the bottom of the T. Obviously you would need 3 clutches for each terminus of the T.
That's why it's not done: added complexity and maintenance for relatively low benefit. The Integrel E-Drive electric pancake motor between the ICE clutch and gearbox is a very good solution in terms of packaging, installation, integration and function.
I am afraid not. But we keep our eyes out for all great innovations!
Regarding the T-Shape: I am not an engineer and this would be out of my skill set to know! We decided to work with Integrel based on both 5 years of experience but also the intensive RD they have invested in over the past few years.
@@balancecatamarans By t shape he means feeding a gearbox from both motors, via clutches, and having a clutch on the output of the gearbox to be able to turn the gearbox (and prop) from either motor or disengage the prop from the geabox to turn the electric motor as a generator.
The clutched electric motors of Integrel E-Drive or Beta Marine hybrid are much simpler solutions.
Simpler is almost always better.
The props he mentioned are horizontally turning props best suited for tugboats and would probably foul a lot on a sailboat, in addition to being vastly more complex.
Again, simpler is usually better.
Thanks Phill, very interesting and honest! One question. What is the diesel consumption related to the Integral system? Can it generate 13-15 kw at 1500 rpm ?? Than it should be aprox 1,5 l diesel? Thanks and regards from Klaus
The electric side of the generation is probably 90+% efficient. If the Diesel is 30% efficient, then 1,5 liters of Diesel would turn into about 4.3 Kilowatt-hours of electricity.
1 liter of diesel has about 10.7 kwh of energy.
Energy is measured in Joules or Watt-hours.
Watts are a measure of power, not energy.
So 4.3 kWh at 14 kW at 1500 rpm would require running the Diesel for about 1/3 of an hour; 20 minutes.
Power * time = energy.
Correction, the above would only apply if the Diesel was only being used to power the E-Drive as generator. If some of the energy from running the Diesel also turns the prop and moves the boat, then less of the energy will go into the battery. The latter could depend on whether the gearbox can be left in neutral and not turn the prop.
Klaus, it is too early for me to offer answers to questions such as this without real world testing. Of course it also depends on the size of the diesel being used. I was able to get about 6.5 KW from 45 HP Yanmars on our own boat at 1,500 RPM. That was the sweet spot for the most charge for the
money. The new E-drive is far more efficient but I would not venture to risk a promise here yet on
What you could get on a 45 Yanmar. Right now we are working with Balance owners to get real world data on boat speed in flat waters at various RPM’s using specific props and engines to fine range calculations at various speeds using the electric motors. What’s clear is that the E-drives are very efficient based on serious RD testing at Integral over the past few years.
collaborating win win win. integral, balance of most of all the customer.
Thanks for the video and the knowledge that you have provided.
Could you tell us the cost difference of just a desiel engine and a combo engine system. Not just the cost to purchase but instalation, maintance
Extra batteries etc.
Any knowledge. On how much a boat uses the desiel engine and the electric engine.
Diesel would usually only be used for long passages with no wind. With good weather planning, most of those can be avoided, so you could mostly sail and motor less.
Electric drive can be used for most motoring: leaving an anchorage, motoring to a mooring or harbor, etc.
Therefore Diesel would be used much less often, saving fuel costs.
A boat needs a battery bank. With some electric drive, the bank should be larger.
The battery bank should be sized appropriately. The size depends on the expected loads, amount of solar, and many other variables.
@@LoanwordEggcorn thanks for your reply.
I am interedted to find out how long or engine running hours you could buy for the additional cost for a combo system.
@@Bruce-f9l If you mean the electric motor, its running time is limited by battery capacity, solar generation, generator. However if you needed to run the generator to move the boat, you would just use the Diesel engine and move it directly with the Diesel. That's an advantage of a parallel hybrid system.
If you mean the running time of the Diesel, that's limited by fuel capacity, including extra cans/bags.
Or do you mean something else?
@@LoanwordEggcorn i enquiring abouy the additional costs of the electrical component of the motor. Ie the electrical motor additional cost of instalation extra batteties solat panels etc.
Is it econimical if you only use it to get in and out of the marina.
@@Bruce-f9l A Windelo 54 recently did two atlantic crossings with a serial hybrid electric drive and never used their Diesel generator. The potential exists to not burn much Diesel, so fuel costs could be very low.
Very Good!... is it posible to getr a higher output unit on each engine ? 15kw+?
In principle you could easily double the power by stacking two electric motors and controllers in parallel. In practice you'd probably never need it. How often do you use a full 80 horsepower on a (sailing) catamaran? (Or charge at 60 kW?)
The E-Drive 15 system will be able to output higher power for up to 120 seconds only. Larger systems are planned, however they are unlikely to be air cooled.
Not at this time. 15KW is a hell of a lot of charge coming from one diesel engine.
Higher than 15Kw on a 45 HP diesel? Wow, 15KW is really superb. With two engines it is like going about with a 30KW generator.
The more performance the cat, the smaller the motors you need. An 80HP is not enough for many of the behemoth charter cats over 50 feet. But a 45 HP works just fine on a Balance 48 or 52.
I'm excited to see the evolution of Integrel technology. You mentioned that the electric engine is air cooled. Are there sensors or other controls to prevent it from overheating?
Yes, the E-Drive system is designed with safety as top priority. The system monitors the voltage, current, and temperature of all components, including the batteries (independent of the battery management system). If operational limits are exceeded, the system ramps back power. If safety limits are exceeded, generation or drive is temporarily suspended and a warning shows on the Integrel Touchscreen.
Thanks for the conversation. The Integrel E-Drive looks like a very nice solution. Looks like an axial flux permanent magnet 3 phase AC motor. Looks like it's on the gearbox side of the clutch so the electric drive can move the boat without the Diesel engaged at all (clutch disengaged). This may mean that it can't act as a generator unless it's also turning the prop though. (If so, you NEED MORE SOLAR.)
(A fun part of this is the control system that manages the power flows and clutch.)
Regarding hydrogeneration on a smaller boat, the controllers can be set to low power, so that the speed reduction is minimal, like a half knot or so. It becomes more efficient at higher water speeds, which coincidentally is why hydrogeneration (especially from an electric drive) is much more practical on a performance boat.
Phil, you need more solar on the boats. Please consider walkable panels like the Solbians. If they're good for IMOCA and Jules Verne Trophy boats, they're good for Balance.
With more solar, you can operate house loads, including refrigeration and air conditioning without running the generator. MANY cruisers are ALREADY doing this on their own boats with more solar.
The hybrid drive motor is positioned between the engine and the gearbox. It can generate power _OR_ drive the boat, but not both at the same time.
@@jasoncrawford6447 Since the clutch is between the Diesel and the electric motor, the Diesel can be declutched while the electric motor moves the boat, i.e. electric propulsion only mode.
The electric motor can also generate electricity when the Diesel is moving the boat. When both Diesel and motor are clutched together and the gearbox is engaged in gear, the Diesel can move the boat while the motor acts as a generator by creating a load on the Diesel.
If the electric motor tries to turn faster than the Diesel, then its torque helps move the boat faster, i.e., both motors working together in parallel to move the boat faster than the Diesel alone.
It can generate power without moving the boat if the gearbox can be disengaged while the electric motor is clutched to the Diesel. That's possible, but depends on the gearbox design. I.e., Is neutral really neutral with the gears disengaged?
We have had more than a few bad experiences with soft panels at Balance, installed for customers at their request. Read carefully the Solbian cautions on overheating and burning! And the paltry warranty life! But the biggest issue is that they perform much more poorly than glass panels and their performance degrades quickly. Without air under them solar panels all perform worse too. Anyways, we can install soft panels if customers are fully aware of the negatives and we are not liable for a burnt hard top. But you need a lot more soft panels to do what a glass one does, let me tell you. As it is, 2,400 watts of glass panels are enough to take a Balance from Cape Town to Florida without any additional charging if there is an engine or alternator failure. One of our customers proved this some years ago when he had two Balmar alternator defect failures.
@@balancecatamarans Yes, but have you actually tried the Solbians? Their live performance can be seen in some of the Windelo videos. I think it's a Victron energy display.
There may be other decent walkable panels; I point out Solbian as one example.
A downside of glass panels is that it limits where one can step.
Do you know what design of electric motor Integral use? There is a particular design that is very efficient.
The flat shape of the motors suggests they are axial flux. Many modern AC motors are highly efficient: axial flux, reluctance, induction, permanent magnet, etc. Motor and controller efficiencies combining above 90% are common now.
The Integrel motor is a custom radial flux motor designed specifically for the marine market.
@@jasoncrawford6447That's what I was looking for.
What are the advantages of the Integrel over the Beta Marine hybrids
Should be similar. The axial motor Integel is using has a smaller physical footprint in an engine compartment.
Beta Marine is an engine manufacturer. I believe some of their customers install Bell Marine electric motors to them. I am not well familiar with this product, but we ruled it out for Balance because we wanted the global service and support of Yanmar, the support from Integrel, and only wanted to use a sail-drive system as I sought to explain in my video.
@@balancecatamarans Beta has a hybrid with a toothed belt electric motor clutched to the output shaft. It's their own product as used by HH and has their own controller integrated seamlessly with the throttles. It's on Beta's UK web site under "hybrid propulsion", and is now on the water. It does look like it may be the Bell motor.
Integrel's E-Drive is definitely a better fit for what you're doing.
But the point is that more hybrids are appearing.
Does Balance use the same hybrid system as the HH44?
No. We are using the Integrel E-drive, our partner in innovation, and we will be the first to test the new E-drive on a Balance 526 later this year.
Curious to know whether this system from integral was developed in collaboration with Yanmar? I’d imagine that when used as POWERFUL generators, there’s quite a bit of extra load on the engine.
Load is load, whether it's turning a generator or turning a prop. The E-Drive controller needs to manage the engine speed and torque, etc. Its software can be tuned to different combustion engines and adjusts to different operating conditions. According to Integrel's web site, E-Drive is currently compatible with Yanmar, Volvo, Nanni, Beta, Vetus combustion engines.
Interesting - main concern with this installation is how to repair/replace this unit if/when it fails? The current system is rather bolt-on to the Yanmar engines so relatively easy to access to repair / replace, which has been important for Gen1 systems like ours. General issue for boat builders with early generation boats - fail to understand and anticipate how systems are accessed to repair / replace.
The E-drive is a bolt on system as well, but removes the need for belts and pulleys. It does require alteration to our current engine bays, however.
@@balancecatamarans good to hear it's a bolt-on system and (hopefully) won't require removal / movement of engine or sail-drive to remove / replace the unit, or impede engine operation (as in currently we just shut down controller and remove belt to remove from engine operation).
if you charge the batteries so fast then very important to take a look a tha very aspect of charching. porobably the batery bank will need a cooling system, is not?
It depends on the battery chemistry, battery construction, etc. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, which are becoming universal in boats and some cars, can be charged at 1C with no problem, so a reasonably large battery bank would have no problem with this charging rate. They're also among the least sensitive to temperature.
Should I retrofit one?
David, it would be hard to retrofit an E-drive on a Balance because the engine bay bed has to be expanded a bit to make it fit properly. You would be best to add on the existing Integrel alternators.
With these and enough battery storage you could drive the boat 3 hours on electric and then use diesel for an hour while charging the banks back up. I think that is the goal. I see they will need liquid cooling to achieve that. It's all about how much diesel you can save.
You're forgetting that you can also charge the battery bank using solar and hydrogeneration.
Purely electric sailboats use the electric motor to leave the dock/mooring/anchorage, raise the sails, leave the electric motor engaged to hydrogenerate, and recharge all the energy used to motor, simply by sailing. After the battery is recharged, they disengage the hydrogeneration while continuing to sail. It's motoring by wind power.
Back on shore they can recharge from shore power. At anchor, they recharge (and power house loads) from solar or windmill, etc. (A lot more people are going purely solar now, since it's silent and so cheap.)
@@LoanwordEggcorn you can get caught in a 7-10 day no wind area in the ocean. if that happens you can motor only dependent on how much solar you have. if you have 4500 watts of solar and can charge for 12 hours that would fill a 50kw battery bank but what loads does it take to run fridges, navigation instruments, water maker etc... Lets say you have 35 kw left to use a day to motor if each engine uses 7kw to go 5 knots that is 2.5 hours of motoring and you would go 12.5 Nautical miles in a day. I would want duel diesels right now even if I had 250kw of battery bank and 8kw of solar. Most likely you in a 10 day windless area you would run your engine 1 hour to achieve 2-3 hours of electric sailing. Right now 125kw of battery bank is perfect. you get smaller diesel engines 2 30hp or whatever it takes to achieve 8 knots of speed. Then only have enough diesel to make it 500nm of motoring which gives you 1500nm of total motoring. Then to make up for the difference in battery weight you have smaller water tanks. That is the minimal. I do not know enough about kite sails and if they work when you only have 2-3 knots of wind at water level, which means 4-10 knots 85 feet up. That would be the only thing that might make a pure electric boat possible.
@@dc1544 Agree Diesels are needed for long becalmed passages. However, outside of the doldrums, and with good weather routing, those can be minimized. (And yes, we know weather routing is not perfect. But it helps most of the time.)
Was not suggesting a purely electric boat for world cruising, but in most places people sail, and with weather planning, motoring can be minimized. It also helps to have a boat that sails efficiently in light wind like a Balance or other performance boats.
Regarding battery sizing, it's about optimizing things. If you have more solar, you need less battery. If you have smaller water tanks, but larger solar, you can run the watermaker more often. Etc.
You don't mention the size of the boat, but for say a 40 to 50 foot cat, I would never put hundreds of kWh of battery in it if it had enough solar, hydrogeneration and a Diesel with enough electric power output. 50 kWh should be plenty for typical house loads and typical electric motoring to and from anchorages, harbors, moorings, etc.
I'm a huge proponent of electrification, but Diesel fuel is still more energy dense than battery, even with the inefficiencies of internal combustion. So I'd suggest that more Diesel fuel and a relatively smaller (but still large) battery bank is appropriate.
It really depends on the boat and solar and weather. A Windelo 54 recently did two Atlantic crossings with solar and hydrogeneration to (charge the battery to) power house loads and never started the serial hybrid Diesel generator once.
The Windelos have about 1 to 4.5 kW of solar. Given how cheap solar is, I would definitely use more of it than Phil does. And walkable panels. Yes, they're less efficient, but they're far more practical for areas where you would like to walk to tend to sails.
@@dc1544 Integrel/Balance haven't published range yet, but early estimates indicate more than double the range you have quoted above for at least one of the Balance cats.
@@jasoncrawford6447 I posted 1500 nm is that what you are referring to? I think a bout really only needs 1000 nm from engine power. Some are even saying 500nm range with engine power( gas and electric combined). Now also if you can sail 4 knots while regening then you can use 1 engine to get you up to 6 knots. especially if sun is out and you can replace the 4-5kw you are using to add 2 knots of speed. I think using as much electric power as possible without burning any diesel. replacing 1 diesel you can add 30kw of batteries now replacing that fuel tank weight when full also means you can add more solar above dingy and add another 30kw of battery also. So with 1 hybrid engine with 100 gallons of diesel, 120kw of battery bank and 4kw of solar you should be able to cruise the world. We will see soon enough as others are setting up there boats like that now.
Hybrids can regenerate back to store energy back to batteries to go further distances,but if using desiel and the boat is low on design it also won't travel far
Diesel is more dense than lithium batteries but diesel is only 40% efficient against batteries at >90%, still doesn't 'balance' things out but it is not quite 22 x better, the Integral systems are superb though.
No, the ~20x more dense number is including conversion efficiencies. Unconverted to useful shaft HP, diesel is about 38.6MJ/L, lithium is about 0.75MJ/L. With that said, efficiency goes a long way in being green. A light, sleek boat uses a lot less diesel.
@@KeithStrang Mass usually matters more than volume. Diesel fuel is about 12.7k Wh/kg. Lithium ion batteries are on the about 200 Wh/kg. Diesel engines are heavy and have less than 40% efficiency (and lots of maintenance). Electric motors (of the same power) are light and have 95+% efficiency.
There is not a change that the efficiency balances things out. There is a reason we don't have electric freight trucks over diesel. To get an electric truck half the range of a diesel, the electric truck is so heavy that there is no margin left for actual freight. Even electric cars with half the range of normal cars need special tires to handle the weight. And then you think it's viable on boats that are 1000x more sensitive to weight? No way.
If the new E-drive can generate 13-15kw, what is the purpose of getting expensive and inefficient solar panels that take up deck space?
That's a good point. With the Edrive as efficient as it is, it could be argued you can use less solar. I think most want enough solar to operate the boat during daylight hours without resorting to additional charging. But it is true, the new
E-drive generates a very fast and powerful charge off the engines.
To me one of the problem is you still have 2 desiel engines to service. They slways seam to have a problem that needs to be repaired.
One very important thing most fail to realize [In regard to all electric boat] BATTERIES can NOT be charged and discharged an unlimited number of times. They can be charged/discharged only a certain number of times before their efficiency diminishes tremendously. Which means the COST of replacing those batteries for new batteries for the sake of always running solely on electric propulsion would be astronomical. BATTERY TECHNOLOGY simply is not there yet. Solar technology is not there yet either. I like what Integral has accomplished with their technology to at least provide a cost effective option to use while we wait for battery and solar technology to improve dramatically.
@@WyckoffMode Current Lithium Iron Phospate batteries can be charged thousands of cycles. In typical boat use, that would be many decades of use.
Your information is very out of date.
SunPower solar cells are 24% efficient. That's not too far from the Shockley-Queisser limit.
@@WyckoffMode current generation LFP cells can do 6000+ full cycles and still have 80% of their initial range.. fir the amount of use most yachts get, that's probably longer life than the yacht
@@timtravelnomad Correct. It would be multiple decades of boat life. When the boat is scrapped, the batteries would be recycled, but probably still have useful life even then.
In short, the batteries would last much longer than the boat, and most boats last decades.
It is better than two diesel generators and two electric motors in my view. With two diesels you at least get excellent propulsion redundancy. Prior to our adoption of the Integrel alterators we had to install a diesel generator and two motors. But a cat without two diesels would be very hard to dock too!
Forgive my naivity but brushless electric motors are highly efficient, The trouble may be getting a reliable efficient generator to support its use..
Electric motors in a hybrid system usually can be used as a generator. Integrel's E-Drive can.
Most sailboats also recharge the battery bank from solar, shore power, hydrogeneration, etc.
If you're referring to a serial hybrid, the solution is to use the same type of electric motor as a generator attached to the Diesel. The electric drive motors are highly efficient. When the same type of motor is used as a (separate) generator (powered from the Diesel), it's also highly efficient.
As far as I know all Balance catamarans have sail drives including this latest one. That is a cheap short cut and puts a bl**dy great hole in the bottom of the boat and they are costly to maintain and service. Anything with a sail drive is a deal breaker for me. Just take the engines out of the very back of the boat and put in shaft drives! Balance is not alone in this. They mostly all do it but they are careful to skip over the costs and of course the fact they can SINK you. Two notable exceptions are Antares and Windelo.. Windelo have room for shafts because they are electric motors. Antares have the weight centred thus they have room for shafts.
Geoff, we use sail drives because they are better for our needs. They are not any cheaper than shafts. We do not like engines in living spaces, or under bunks, and prefer they are in watertight living spaces. Why on earth you think a saildrive poses a sinking risk is beyond me! You can put a hole in the engine room of a Balance and the water will only come up 8 to 10 inches as it is a watertight space. A shaft poses far more "sinking danger" with the "dripless seals" that drip and the cutlass bearings that wear down. They are in the boat itself, not in a watertight compartment.
I have read your reply and don’t agree. Saildrives are expensive to maintain and a pain in the ass. The new HH 44 has shafts. Why? Plus the energy has to change direction before it gets to the water. Engines in the back put weight in the back where you don’t want it. Take a look at Palm Beach power boats where the engines and weight are centred. Mark Richards knows his stuff. He won Sydney to Hobart 8 or 11 times. How many have you won? The sail drives are quick and easy for you. I have got manners so I will allow you your opinion. Please allow me mine.
Oh, I have not heard of anyone falling overboard from the bedroom whilst working on the engine.
@@balancecatamarans Water tight bulk heads are a really good idea. Now let's see, that's right Titanic had those! Sail drives are maintenance hogs. But that comes after they have sailed away over the horizon. If you hit something hard you have a hole in your boat. I don't ever want a hole in my boat, ever! HH catamarans 44 has shafts with their hybrid. Windelo has shafts with their electric motors. They have the room for shafts or sail drives and chose shafts. I have yet to hear of someone falling overboard from a bedroom whilst working on an engine. Boats cost enough to run as it is without the extra cost of poor design/short cuts via a Sail Drive. Just design the engine/weight forward and use shaft drives that have been around for ever and proven themselves to be efficient and robust and maintenance friendly. I don't need to tell you that putting engines right at the far aft end of the hulls is far from ideal from a point of view of. weight distribution and crew safety at sea, yet so many do it. I know why you do it. Because it is quick and easy.
All advantages are attended with disadvantages. On a shorter cat we are strongly convinced in the advantages of the sail-drives for our designs.
What’s so friggin green about a fiberglass sailboat that’s built using petroleum products?
Surely Integrel Solution's E-Drive will compromise an engine manufacturer's warranty positioned between the engine & gearbox ? Makes all servicing & repairs an expensive business. Who is going to do it globally and is an expert in this new technology ? I can imagine all sorts of trouble if there is a failure. How much testing are you doing on this system on the water ? It just adds risk to my boat.
All new technology poses risk. We ventured out to test and refine the Integrel Alternators five years ago and now everyone else is using them. It will be the same with the E-drive. But we have worked so closely with them for years and they stand behind their products and offer great support and service. If someone wants to get a Balance without E-drive they can.