Thanks for addressing this stuff, Phil. Like Alex, keen to hear what you’ve chosen for hybrid diesel electric. The ‘hydro-gen’ with feathering props is also super interesting. Because Balance boats can sail in lighter air, unless you’re racing, it could make sense a lot of the time to lose 0.75 knots of boat speed but put say 5kW back into the batteries, without ever needing to fire up the diesels. A Balance 526 is at the top of my list for a 2029 delivery, and your choices here will affect my final purchase decision. So, good on you for addressing this topic!
5kw or 2.5kw per engine regen is asking a lot. right now its 2.5kw total or 1.25kw per side regen. Larger battery banks are needed as is more solar on every boat. We need batteries to double in watts per kilo to truly be able to keep weight down. I say keep 1/2 the water in tanks and use that weight savings to add more batteries.
Thank you for your common-sense approach to the topic; that was very well said. I am excited to hear your thoughts on hybrid propulsion and Balance's new offering. By the way, those bamboo veneers look fantastic!
Thanks a lot Tony! I am focusing most of my time these days on design and innovation projects and less to videos and that sort of thing. We have so many talented team members now - close to a 1,000 last check - that I wish to see us diversify our videos with talented new faces.
Look into CIGS/Yuma panels for solar, they last 25 years and are so much more lighter than glass panels. LFP cells for batteries can last 10,000 cycles if used correctly. The best is coming sodium batteries. They already almost caught LFP in density. The biggest thing you can do with LFP batteries is keep them in hulls under waterline so when in tropics they stay cooler since the water is always cooler than air temps usually. I see a couple boat builders have batteries like these in engine compartment which is so bad for them. Heat and C rating control is how you get longer life.
Glass solar panels are slightly more efficient due to better cooling, but walkable solar panels are vastly more practical on a coachroof or foredeck where you might need to walk to work on sails. Very likely the best walkable panels are made by Solbian in Italy using SunPower cells. They are used by Windelo and a majority of IMOCA 60 and Jules Verne Trophy boats. Use more solar and more battery. Definitely look into hybrid drives. Lithium ion batteries are fully recyclable. See Redwood Materials in Nevada, for example.
Would love to see a real-world comparison as the thermal temp coefficient is a real thing. These boats spend their time near the equator where temps are high, but sun is abundant. I'd suspect in a surface area comparison, you'd need about 1.3 to 1.5 as much surface area for walkon to get the same output. The other factor is walk-on won't last nearly as long as they do get very hot. In electronics, heat is the enemy. Glass panels should last 20yrs + if corrosion is looked after.
@@KeithStrang Silicon solar cells are more efficient when they're cooler. However we since can't walk on glass solar panels, they are more limited on where we can put them on a sailboat since they interfere with walking on deck to work on sails. Therefore with walkable panels, they can cover much more of the coachroof, and some boats also put them on the foredeck also. That means much greater solar area. Even if they're less efficient due to heat, the much greater area more than compensates for that. Compared to the cost of a boat, the extra cost of more panels is largely insignificant, especially compared against the benefits of more electric energy being available. The SunPower cells that Solbian uses have a 40 year useful life expectancy, but probably continue to produce usable power long after that. Heat will probably reduce their life, but they would probably still outlast the boat. SunPower has the highest efficiency and second highest thermal coefficient, so even when hot are the most efficient solar cell available. Bottom line: it probably works fine.
@@LoanwordEggcorn But Solbian offers a 5yr warranty? Not saying that means anything, just looking at what their site says. Walk-on would certainly be nice, but to some it seems like too much of a liability as the panels may have a higher failure rate when out voyaging. I think flex panels have done great when used in applications were they can be ventilated. Planning to replace panels in 5yrs, which a lot of people do with walk-on panels already, doesn't seem that green friendly either. I would love if the tech was there and ready as it'd be a huge weight savings as well!
@@KeithStrang I'm sure Solbian panels will work fine beyond 5 years. They use ECTFE plastic encapsulation, which is highly durable. Solbian panels have blocking diodes. If a panel with diodes failed, it would simply be bypassed automatically. Same with shading, etc. Phil makes a good point that longevity is related to greenness. Something that lasts longer reduces environmental impact because it doesn't need to be replaced as soon. We agree that cooler panels work better, but ventilation really isn't practical other than on something like davits. Boats, and especially catamarans, have a lot of surface area, but most of that area needs to be walkable in order to be practical and workable.
@@LoanwordEggcorn I’m getting (8) 400W glass panels on my 526. They are all raised up, so as long as there is a slight breeze, air will be flowing under them. That small amount of airflow is massive in eliminating heat buildup. I would love to test high quality walk-on panels alongside these glass ones. There is a decent amount of surface area on the coach roof that could accommodate more solar, but we want it to be accessible.
Can you please elaborate on "Green Washing" from that "certain" manufacturer that you displayed in the video? Especially when one owner has has done a crossing where they had to give away fuel at their destination. They also claim using recyclables and less water in their building of their boats? Mind you - emission free boating - are they referencing actual usage/running of the boat only. So maybe taken out of context?
Hi Paul, I do not wish to call out a specific manufacturer here. I simply wished to point out that installing a lot of solar on a catamaran or an electric motor system does not make a yacht green. It can make it greener of course. I stress that sailing more than motoring is critical. It takes a lot more fuel to push a heavy charter cat, for example, than a Balance or an Outremer. I have no idea what other builders may claim, but I did see marketing at a recent boat show for “emissions free sailing.” That’s a fantasy on the operational side unless the boat owner is prepared to drift through the doldrums or turn off all electric gear on cloudy days. If you followed the Jimmy Cornell Alcana challenge in the effort to sail around the world without fossil fuels, they had to give up the effort soon after they began. If a given cat arrived after an Atlantic crossing where they “gave fuel away” on arrival does not prove they did not use fuel. But of course if they had beam winds all the way and great solar days they may not have needed much fuel. If they were carrying extra diesel it means they had a generator to propel electric motors, or had a parallel hybrid diesel electric system. That they arrived with more fuel than they thought they would need is hardly proof it was a fossil free passage. All passages are different. I once crossed the Atlantic from Gibraltar to Bermuda in August and we had almost zero wind the entire time. To conserve fuel we motored at 3 knots or less or not at all. There are efforts underway to build boats with greener materials. We have explored them, but are not convinced they are proven enough yet for us to jump on board. Best, Phil
@@balancecatamarans Totally awesome that you took the time to reply in detail. Surely new cats that are coming out with 5+ Kw of solar and elect motors and have a generator still have a reduced fuel consumption?
Paul, sorry for slow reply. Of course you are correct. More solar is always a benefit so long as you have a battery bank that can take advantage of it.
Unfortunately the "human made" climate change is rubbish. But I like your boats. Of course as you make them more "green" the less chance I will have to ever afford it.
Wise words from the Hobie master himself :)
Thanks for addressing this stuff, Phil. Like Alex, keen to hear what you’ve chosen for hybrid diesel electric. The ‘hydro-gen’ with feathering props is also super interesting. Because Balance boats can sail in lighter air, unless you’re racing, it could make sense a lot of the time to lose 0.75 knots of boat speed but put say 5kW back into the batteries, without ever needing to fire up the diesels. A Balance 526 is at the top of my list for a 2029 delivery, and your choices here will affect my final purchase decision. So, good on you for addressing this topic!
5kw or 2.5kw per engine regen is asking a lot. right now its 2.5kw total or 1.25kw per side regen. Larger battery banks are needed as is more solar on every boat. We need batteries to double in watts per kilo to truly be able to keep weight down. I say keep 1/2 the water in tanks and use that weight savings to add more batteries.
Love this topic. Thank you! Excited to hear about the hybrid options.
Thank you for your common-sense approach to the topic; that was very well said. I am excited to hear your thoughts on hybrid propulsion and Balance's new offering. By the way, those bamboo veneers look fantastic!
Thank you.
Good to see you, Phil. I saw another video with two other guys and was wondering what happened. Keep on keeping on! ⛵
That's the team expanding. That's our way of keeping on, keeping on.
Thanks a lot Tony! I am focusing most of my time these days on design and innovation projects and less to videos and that sort of thing. We have so many talented team members now - close to a 1,000 last check - that I wish to see us diversify our videos with talented new faces.
Look into CIGS/Yuma panels for solar, they last 25 years and are so much more lighter than glass panels. LFP cells for batteries can last 10,000 cycles if used correctly. The best is coming sodium batteries. They already almost caught LFP in density. The biggest thing you can do with LFP batteries is keep them in hulls under waterline so when in tropics they stay cooler since the water is always cooler than air temps usually. I see a couple boat builders have batteries like these in engine compartment which is so bad for them. Heat and C rating control is how you get longer life.
Lovely boat
Glass solar panels are slightly more efficient due to better cooling, but walkable solar panels are vastly more practical on a coachroof or foredeck where you might need to walk to work on sails.
Very likely the best walkable panels are made by Solbian in Italy using SunPower cells. They are used by Windelo and a majority of IMOCA 60 and Jules Verne Trophy boats.
Use more solar and more battery. Definitely look into hybrid drives.
Lithium ion batteries are fully recyclable. See Redwood Materials in Nevada, for example.
Would love to see a real-world comparison as the thermal temp coefficient is a real thing. These boats spend their time near the equator where temps are high, but sun is abundant. I'd suspect in a surface area comparison, you'd need about 1.3 to 1.5 as much surface area for walkon to get the same output. The other factor is walk-on won't last nearly as long as they do get very hot. In electronics, heat is the enemy. Glass panels should last 20yrs + if corrosion is looked after.
@@KeithStrang Silicon solar cells are more efficient when they're cooler. However we since can't walk on glass solar panels, they are more limited on where we can put them on a sailboat since they interfere with walking on deck to work on sails.
Therefore with walkable panels, they can cover much more of the coachroof, and some boats also put them on the foredeck also. That means much greater solar area.
Even if they're less efficient due to heat, the much greater area more than compensates for that.
Compared to the cost of a boat, the extra cost of more panels is largely insignificant, especially compared against the benefits of more electric energy being available.
The SunPower cells that Solbian uses have a 40 year useful life expectancy, but probably continue to produce usable power long after that. Heat will probably reduce their life, but they would probably still outlast the boat.
SunPower has the highest efficiency and second highest thermal coefficient, so even when hot are the most efficient solar cell available.
Bottom line: it probably works fine.
@@LoanwordEggcorn But Solbian offers a 5yr warranty? Not saying that means anything, just looking at what their site says. Walk-on would certainly be nice, but to some it seems like too much of a liability as the panels may have a higher failure rate when out voyaging. I think flex panels have done great when used in applications were they can be ventilated. Planning to replace panels in 5yrs, which a lot of people do with walk-on panels already, doesn't seem that green friendly either. I would love if the tech was there and ready as it'd be a huge weight savings as well!
@@KeithStrang I'm sure Solbian panels will work fine beyond 5 years. They use ECTFE plastic encapsulation, which is highly durable.
Solbian panels have blocking diodes. If a panel with diodes failed, it would simply be bypassed automatically. Same with shading, etc.
Phil makes a good point that longevity is related to greenness. Something that lasts longer reduces environmental impact because it doesn't need to be replaced as soon.
We agree that cooler panels work better, but ventilation really isn't practical other than on something like davits.
Boats, and especially catamarans, have a lot of surface area, but most of that area needs to be walkable in order to be practical and workable.
@@LoanwordEggcorn I’m getting (8) 400W glass panels on my 526. They are all raised up, so as long as there is a slight breeze, air will be flowing under them. That small amount of airflow is massive in eliminating heat buildup.
I would love to test high quality walk-on panels alongside these glass ones. There is a decent amount of surface area on the coach roof that could accommodate more solar, but we want it to be accessible.
Can you please elaborate on "Green Washing" from that "certain" manufacturer that you displayed in the video? Especially when one owner has has done a crossing where they had to give away fuel at their destination. They also claim using recyclables and less water in their building of their boats? Mind you - emission free boating - are they referencing actual usage/running of the boat only. So maybe taken out of context?
Hi Paul, I do not wish to call out a specific manufacturer here. I simply wished to point out that installing a lot of solar on a catamaran or an electric motor system does not make a yacht green. It can make it greener of course. I stress that sailing more than motoring is critical. It takes a lot more fuel to push a heavy charter cat, for example, than a Balance or an Outremer. I have no idea what other builders may claim, but I did see marketing at a recent boat show for “emissions free sailing.” That’s a fantasy on the operational side unless the boat owner is prepared to drift through the doldrums or turn off all electric gear on cloudy days. If you followed the Jimmy Cornell Alcana challenge in the effort to sail around the world without fossil fuels, they had to give up the effort soon after they began.
If a given cat arrived after an Atlantic crossing where they “gave fuel away” on arrival does not prove they did not use fuel. But of course if they had beam winds all the way and great solar days they may not have needed much fuel. If they were carrying extra diesel it means they had a generator to propel electric motors, or had a parallel hybrid diesel electric system. That they arrived with more fuel than they thought they would need is hardly proof it was a fossil free passage.
All passages are different. I once crossed the Atlantic from Gibraltar to Bermuda in August and we had almost zero wind the entire time. To conserve fuel we motored at 3 knots or less or not at all.
There are efforts underway to build boats with greener materials. We have explored them, but are not convinced they are proven enough yet for us to jump on board.
Best, Phil
@@balancecatamarans Totally awesome that you took the time to reply in detail. Surely new cats that are coming out with 5+ Kw of solar and elect motors and have a generator still have a reduced fuel consumption?
Paul, sorry for slow reply. Of course you are correct. More solar is always a benefit so long as you have a battery bank that can take advantage of it.
Unfortunately the "human made" climate change is rubbish. But I like your boats. Of course as you make them more "green" the less chance I will have to ever afford it.
Stop with the climate change bs and just build a good boat. No such thing as green.
That's pretty much the exact premise of what Phil is saying in this video.
You're the one spouting the "bs" here. Man-Made Climate Change is a Scientific Fact.