“Maybe it’s time to abandon the ego project of always knowing more than everyone else 10:17 …the Christ you already know is more than enough.” So true. Sometimes it seems like the building up and tearing down of the ego project was a necessary prelude to this realization.
Idk that makes Christ sound like Yaldabaoth. A god who knows enough to assume He/She/It is The sole God worthy of our worship, giving gnostic vibes to me 🤷🏼
@@Drollerie this is pure ignorance. Christian mysticism is a form of knowing TRUTH in LIGHT beyond the veils of the devils lies. Gnosticism is a form of knowing TRUTH in LIGHT beyond the veils of the devils lies. You're involved in an EGO Project where you try to make your version better even though it's exactly the same.
Youve really spoken to me with this one, Jon. You've described a lot of my spiritual journey here as I overlooked Christianity for so long because it was mainstream. That arrogance is still being broken down to this day. Youre message was true and humbling. Thank you for the work that you do. God bless! 😊
Is there only christs truths in gods creation? did god create left over garbage truths to be left in the winter snow, to be forgotten to history, since all we need is Christ? Or did Christ give us not a fish to eat for dinner, but the means to bring our own dinner through our own hands? To follow through the whispers of guidance to follow his word while maintaining agency and admiring the many other truths of gods unfathomable creation? It’s a personal question I’d ask yourself.
@jjjones4458 Beloved, the cause of much misunderstanding in Holy Scriptures, is because we measure the writings of many ages ago, without cognitive recognition as we read, that the Intellect of those ages, were far more simpler than in this Age, where even a child would know more than they ever would or could. The Darkness is the Growth of our Intellects, for it is falling into a state of spiritual entropy, you now Abide in the Age where Jesus said none could work, He means spiritual work would Stop. The Prowess of the now enlarged Intellect which works by intellectualy agreeing with the Scriptures contents, whilst Not in reality following in Spirit, allows many to take great Titles and make of themselves a 'Somebody' which is the Goal hidden behind all there 'Interpretations' do Not envy them, we have just described those that Jesus does not know. We are not allowed to debate, only tell, for our work is Not for this Age, but the one which shall grow from the Ashes of this one. God is Very Real, Jesus is His Template and the Way He requires you to be, in thought and word and deed, Faith requires Not the Permission of the intellect to Walk towards God's Truth, it was Why Jesus Created it, so you need not walk in the Darkness of your Own light which intellect Imagines it is, for if 'Your' light be Darkness, how great is that Darkness?
FALSE : Gnostic is a religious movement from 2nd to 3rd century. TRUE : Gnosticism is rooted in the BIBLICAL Truth that the old testament god (Yhwh/Jehovah) is NOT morally flawless, neither is he perfect in his wisdom and knowledge. Gnostics realize that Yhwh/Jehovah is of a different nature from the Father who sent Yeshua the Messiah to earth : that Yeshua in the four gospels reveals clearly the nature of His Father to be different from Yhwh/Jehovah who is described in the old testament to be capricious, genocidal, vengeful and patriarchal. The Gnostics rightfully realize that the purpose and work of Yeshua the Messiah on earth is NOT dependent on the old testament narrative even though there are connections that can be made between them and the teaching of Messiah.
Took the same Route! Alan Watts made me curious about knowledge and experience but led me astray. Seraphim Rose made me curious about the truth which led me to Christ
I came to a conclusion a while back. To quote Bruce Lee: “Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick.” Faith in Christ is the path to salvation. When some people start to dip their toes into the mystery, they feel that their is more to know, or want a better cognitive understanding of why faith is enough. Perhaps they think that faith isn't enough, and want to dig deeper to find what else is needed. Ultimately once they understand the mystery, they come back to the initial conclusion that faith is all they need. The journey (knowledge) isn't required, but they needed it to lead them (back) to faith.
i love this quote, it is perfect for things like Truth an prayer. before God, a prayer was a prayer, the truth the truth. then i met God, and a prayer was no longer a prayer, and the truth no longer the truth. then i became firm in my faith, and a prayer was a prayer, and the truth the truth
The journey (knowledge) is at some point in life (this or any other) needed to deepen your faith. We have a mind and a heart - I believe we are intended to use both. The third time the punch wasn't just the same punch or just the same kick - it was much better, much stronger. And he wouldn't have gotten there without the middle step.
The algorithm is starting to freak me out. I left Russian Orthodoxy for traditional Catholicism. But even before I was Orthodox I had a combination of Pagan and New Age practises and beliefs. Thing is, I now know the truth of Christ, and I can’t ignore that. Nor do I want to. But I also know the truth about physics, energy, ancient pre Christian practises, the power of water and the significance of the seasons. Astrology is also legitimate as it is a part of the Universe which was created by God. What we do with those things is potentially dangerous, however. Which doesn’t stop them from being true. However I understand the mainstream Christian effort to put all of those things into the “NOPE” basket. Because it really can be a slippery slope. All of this is to say, thank you for this! It feels needed, as I often don’t feel safe to share in the fact that Christianity can be as simple or complex as one could want. The complex pathusually involving a degree of mysticism. Neither path makes the other less true. But I personally do enjoy the seeking of the deeper, smaller more nuanced parts of Faith that still all point to God’s glory. I subscribed immediately and look forward to more content.
Thank you for this, especially for highlighting the potential root of pride in desiring to know more than others... definitely felt a check when I heard that. God bless you for your work.
Thank you for this. Seeing very clearly where we are here. That is, in space and time, where unspeakable suffering, loss and death commands the peaks of human experience. Seeing this clearly, and being sympathetic to the natural human reaction of denial. In other words having compassion for those vast majority of 8 billion folk who distract themselves from this existential nightmare with transient consolations. Such as, well, pretty much anything that takes our minds off the dark truths that are the foundation of this space and time reality. As I say, death, loss, suffering. And being compassionate also to those vast billions who rather than denial seek a higher power to save them from the downsides of this hellish realm. I totally understand why we turn away from it. And this turning away does much to explain the madness in the world. For hardly anyone is being honest. And where dishonesty and self-delusion reigns madness thrives. For no one is being themselves. Everyone is to some degree or another playing a game. We are in fantasy land, acting. Doing our best to pretend something can work when it’s actually fundamentally broken. A busted idea that can never work except in a sputtering spluttering way. There is no charmed life. Because even if you do ok yourself for a while and die easy, some you love will not, and in the dark corners of your mind you will know that somewhere hellfire is burning up the innocents in pain beyond description. So we pretend it’s ok. It’s not but I get why we pretend. Because this is just the way it is. So, in this way, dark forces can assume some apparent moral virtue. They can speak truth to power. The truth is this world is broken and the darkest among us are truth tellers, dark saints. They cut through the bullshit and tell it as it is. Brad Pitt’s character, a paid assassin, at the end of the movie Killing Them Softly ‘This guy wants to tell me we’re living in a community. Don’t make me laugh! I live in America. And in America you are on your own. America’s not a country it’s just a business. Now fucking pay me.’ For America read ‘here’, the world. We are all pretending it’s ok when it isn’t. So that lack of integrity, that moral failure to be honest, lets us down. I get it, I do. But it destroys us in the end, because it’s pretend. Our honesty is our immunity against evil. Our innocence, surely the most powerful force in existence, is thrown aside. Every word we say is built on sand. Every act, every moment of being comes from a person who from day one has thrown themselves away. Because ‘If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” We pretend and lie to ourselves about the truth of our predicament. This is not the truth and this imprisons us and is a vote for death. We say to darkness- I am dark too. And here’s the deal. I won’t ask you who you are if u leave me alone. If u don’t question me too closely. I’ll abide in your vale of tears if u let me give a rictus smile and we can sally forth to certain death. Well this not the truth. And those amongst us brave enough to see it as it is, the mystics, will break out and desperately seek to turn our heads to the Light. This is Christ. This is the perfect child of God. The spotless infinite truth. But you can’t leave the dark unless you turn your back upon it. That means for an unnerving moment letting go of consolations and falling into an abyss where light steps in. This is the coal face for the mystic. Looking at evil and seeing light. It’s a cosmic confrontation we are more than able to win. We are cosmic, our every thought is cosmic and beyond. Nothing con harm that but we can pretend it isn’t so.
Thank you for this. Reminds me of the little girl (Mary Loo Who?) who gets out of bed on Christmas Eve and sees the Grinch stealing all the toys and stuffing the tree up the chimney. She completely disarms him with her innocence. And how the Wicked Witch says to Dorothy: “who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness”.
Thank you, it just split out of me and it took quite a bit to press send as one feels one is likely to be ridiculed. I only came across Jon the other day and I was blown away by his accuracy and succinctness. This was inspiring and allowed me to ‘indulge’ myself saying things that arrived in my consciousness. What I wrote is only a level of awareness and I smiled to myself as I read in his book the words ‘The first step to healing is to see the wound.’ Which is what I took ages to say! But levels beyond that see a world redeemed, resolved and forgiven. That’s innocent. Truth. I really appreciate you reading what I wrote and seeing into it. I guess I’m ’coming out’
Gnosticism isn’t about worldly or esoteric knowledge through reading texts, it is experiential knowledge through self knowledge. Us gnostics also believe that the god Christian’s pray to is not such a nice guy, he isn’t the one, true, unknowable creator that cannot be seen and cannot be named.
Completely wrong about gnostic exclusivity. Gnosis is a personal experience of God available to everyone, in their own time, their own way. Christian mysticists believe that the genocidal god of the old testament is Christ, we (gnostics) don't. We fully reject murder of men, women, children and believe that only the devil requires worship and sacrifice.
I'm an Orthodox Christian. There's been a lot of misunderstandings of the Holy Scriptures and what Christianity is. I would recommend going to an Orthodox Church and ask questions there. From my humble opinion...if you understand ancient symbolism, it appears the difference between gnosticism and Christianity is that Christians are able to perceive and see the narrative of both the vertical aspect of reality and the horizontal aspect of reality and it's True Source(The Holy Trinity). Meanwhile gnostics only see the horizontal framework of reality, while completely overlooking or just oblivious to the vertical framework. So to say that God is homicidal is........well....a little expected 🤷🏾. It's important to remember when reading archaic texts to not translate it using our 21st century intuitions. This generation is not the original audience of The Holy Scriptures. It was meant to read in a symbolic manner. But seriously, look up a local Parrish and ask questions there my friend ☦️.
@ to say that scripture is only symbolical is considered heresy. The church has killed many for such claims. Christ freed us from the old testament demon god, just like the early church fathers believed. Gnosticism is for those who know, not mearly believe. Anyone can believe, knowing takes effort. Happy New year.
@@Lux-Aeternum1 there's a difference between symbols and metaphors. When I say symbolic, people tend to assume I'm talking about metaphors...no. symbols is the complementation of 2 truths( higher meaning& concrete facts) that points toward a higher identity. It's right there in the 1st verse of the Bible on what a symbol is. And secondly God telling Israelites to destroy other pagan nations is the equivalent of God telling America and Great Britain to destroy the Nazis. In ancient times, there was not much of a separation between a nations religious and political afflictions. In our time period there is a huge chasm between the religious and political... particularly here in the West. God sent the Israelites to destroy nations who were doing dark practices(sacrificing babies just to name a few). Pagan nations worshipped dark spirits. It still happens today weather people realize it at all. God bless you. I pray this will be the year Christ truly reveals Himself to you. Christianity can't fully be understood from looking at it from a modern lens. In a way you have to understand how ancient thinking works to get a hint at what the Scriptures is pointing at.
Anyone can have pride and believe that they know it all, no one is all knowing, only God. Gnosticism is for those who are looking for an experience and power through knowledge (gnosis) rather than search for the truth and living it (Theosis), because you aren't satisfied with the truth. Christ freed us from the father? He was the messiah and fulfilled the prophecy of the old testament and was a Jew? How would gnostics know that he was the chosen one without the Torah predicting it? The Jews (followers of the demigrue) were a small population of the world as well. Christianity wasn't a thing until after Christ came so you must mean he or his followers was the deceiver?
Incredible conversation 💚 I just found you and I resisted Christianity so long! I searched Buddhism, which gave me so much knowledge of self.. then found New Gnosticism.. and finally found myself again in a pit so deep, only Jesus could pull me out. Fortunately I have studied many texts.. I always wanted to be like Jesus.. I’m still struggling to define a theology in ways that don’t leave others confused.. but I know if you truly seek self, you find God. If you truly seek God, you find yourself.. and when life is truly spiritual, you see the battle between dark and light for our hearts and minds.. our soul, when not in Jesus hands, can be lost. And yes usually through pride. I think I’ll leave the theological arguments for people smarter than I am.. my work is service and bringing Christs light to those who still suffer. We all have our purpose but this life.. I just want the Love of Jesus to heal those I come into contact with. Thanks for the explanation. I’m fascinated so I’m gonna keep listening.
I guess this is why I'm not a Christian mystic, I'm just a mystic period. As mystics we really don't need a specific religion, though religions are helpful. That said all this arguing over what is the true Christian mysticism seems silly to me, as a mystic what matters isn't the belief system, it's do the tools work, do they help us come to an experience of the divine. So long as the tools work everything else is insignificant. No reason not to use tools from a wider variety of places, just make sure you come to understand they don't all lead to exactly the same experience, but if your aim is to know the full extent of what is possible to know then by all means travel around.
The problem with that approach is that it is strictly pragmatic. There is no basis of truth. If it is entirely based on personal feelings then there is no way to transmit the information onward to others. You dismiss the idea of “beliefs” but you just expressed your belief that we shouldn’t have specific beliefs. You can’t escape needing faith, so why not find and commit to the true faith? (Aka Jesus Christ)
@@SeekingTheLogos @technoshman101 that's why real magic workers don't bother with mystics, mystics are so busy comparing the size of their light dongs, moral and spiritual grandstanding, and denigrating the knowledge of the dark arts or eastern esotericism. Mysticism is a tool for gnosis and self-discovery, just like our relationship with the divine, we follow the process you get the results. Truth is relative, truth is a yard stick set by the truth teller, if you are truly mystics, you will understand the difference between the subjective, objective and cosmic consciousness states. May the divine nature of our beings set you away from the path of Sheepdom and Wolfdom.
The problem is that’s it’s so easy to be misled, by our pride, by false light, by emptiness! Zero belief gets sticky when you get deeper in the spiritual. So much of life is worlds we don’t see with human eyes. When you meet demons, will you think they’re angels? Believe.. it’s not all empty. Jesus guards the hearts and minds with his teaching and spirit of truth, so we can navigate the inner planes without becoming snacks. I’m not saying you’re wrong… I’m just saying read the gospel with an open heart and an open mind. If truth doesn’t ring, well, at least you know that. Yes, there are powerful mystics in many traditions… only Jesus drained his blood into the dirt for the salvation of sinners and died for them and rose again.
@@merilee I'm confused why I'm not seeing my response to Seeking the logos which covered much of what you're saying. I'll reiterate what I replied to him with at least one part of it anyway, which is that nothing in what I said says no belief. It says no need for belief, that's different than not having belief. It also lowers the priority of belief, where as in Christianity belief is of central importance but any true mystic knows from experience that belief is at very least of tertiary importance. In descending order of importance 1. Tools and techniques that reliably trigger mystical experience This first one requires belief in the technique itself, but this belief is only necessary until sufficient experiential data is acquired. And this belief is very different than belief in a divine entity that has to be continual, and can't ever fully be experienced. 2. The experience itself 3. Rational phenomenological assessment of experience that allows us to differentiate between different types of experience. 3 includes the value of a community for sharing experiential knowledge and challenging each other to be more rigorous in our understanding of what is happening. 4. Belief that is founded on mystical experience I would add an optional 5th point, faith in the concept of a higher power. This faith in the concept of a higher power is differentiated by the conventional faith which assumes the higher power is real despite any reliable evidence to prove such. Here faith in the concept of good admits we don't know but recognizes the pragmatic value of such a profound concept as a concept in a deity or massively transcendent and or immanent higher power. Such a value is akin to a supernormal stimuli in motivating us to actually find out the deeper truths of existence. As a mystical atheist I believe in the concept of God as a useful tool and conceptual supernormal stimuli, I just don't believe in the actuality of a god. And I prefer the Hindu system of deities as each deity meditated upon helps us access different states of consciousness, so this gives a clearer map for mystical exploration.
@@merilee this also by the way is the reason many religions don't like their mystical sides, mystics are a threat to the power of the church. Why do you need the church if you can experience the divine yourself? I think this is a mistake though, I think there is much value to the church that goes above and beyond belief in anything. And that having a larger number of people who have mystical experiences can only strengthen any given religion. I'm an atheist who is all for religion and belief. I don't think we need belief to be mystics but I don't begrudge anyone having beliefs or having religion. Heck I sometimes go to different religious institutions, Christian and others, just to get the energetic feel of being I'm such a location, it's very vitalizing, and each religion is beautiful in this sense. We really need to stop fighting over such nonsense as who's religion is superior, the world needs religion and different religions fighting each other only encourages more people to leave religion. Doesn't the Bible say to judge them by their fruits? If you want people to think your religion is so superior just do enough good shit that eventually people can't deny it's amazing. Right now there is nothing in the fruits that says Christianity is better than any other religion.
I respect your point of view but I don’t entirely agree with it. I was following an Orthodox Christian path when I had a vision and encounter with a serpentine entity with a lion-like face in my mind-twenties. It came out of a portal and entered my room through a cloud back in 1991 during a period of an existential crisis and a dark night of the soul. This is the entity that some of the Gnostic texts refer to as Yaldabaoth or the Demiurge. Regardless if we call it Christian mysticism or Gnostic mysticism, isn’t the end goal to improve ourselves and world conditions rather than becoming entangled in semantics?
@@The_Real_Casey_Timmins There was much more to the experience than I can fit in this comment section, but it gave me proof that we are more than just chemistry and molecules...the soul is real.
You call gnosticism, seeking the divine truths hidden by the demiurge to find a personal experience of our indwelling spirit an ego project, then describe christian mysticism as exactly that. Then make a false dichotomy between the two things in order to soothe your christian ego. When people set out to intentionally misunderstand something, so they can then disparrieage it in order tonfeel right.. what you did in this video, is not only the real EGO project, but also a sign that the deceiver holds veils before you still.
@@GalliniFamily amen brother, he clearly has no understanding of Gnosticism and didn’t even try. I left Christianity because most are so closed minded and think the Bible is the only spiritual text anyone should ever read.
While I don't agree with everything said here, I found it interesting that not all Gnostics were Christians, but that Gnostic Christianity was just one branch or version of Gnosticism.
It’s strange to us now bc our religious landscape isn’t as diverse as when Christ was born. But you can see a good reflection (in my opinion) in the diversity in India/hinduism. In the first century there were many different Jewish sects influencing and being influenced by the surrounding Greek/roman cultures. Then, boom-Jesus hits the scene, and, like a suncatcher, the surrounding cultures all tried to make sense of the phenomenon of Jesus.
@@tookie36 there is NO such phenomenon named "Je-zeus/Jesus" in the first century and the so-called Christian "Jesus/Iesous" is a Constantinian remake and twisting of the original first century Yeshua the Messiah
@vtino4825 Now let's be fair here. Yes Yeshua was his birth name and Jesus is the modern version of his name after it's been filtered through a few different languages. That's no different than having the name Matthias in German and Matthew in English. Names tend to change as they change languages. However God is intelligent enough to whether we say Jesus or Yeshua, He knows who we're talking about.
I’m glad you made this video, I was raised Christian, left the church became pagan for a bit but eventually that led me to Christ, at this point I considered myself a Valentinian Christian, I went to a mainline Episcopalian church for quite some time (and still attend frequently). I don’t know what it was exactly, a borderline mystical experience perhaps, but I ended up coming to the conclusion of this video one day kneeling at the altar rail waiting for communion. I don’t need some deeper mystical ideology. The old school Christian faith is mystical enough.
10:36 very well said. All things come from God, in that there is unity, which is why he saved the sinners and is still saving all of us who sin. Operating in the clear, not obscure, knowledge that all things come from God, spoken into existence by The Word, helps us better understand how to become more Christ-like and grow in Christ. Very well said.
What's interesting is that both claim subjective experience via text, prayer, belief that suspends logic, faith, and the acceptence of information that has been passed down that is only proven through subjective exp. It seems that the possibility of one man experiencing both in one life would be well, not worth debate, decleration, or either humble or arrogant vocalization but perhaps a silent knowing; A peace that passes understanding.
One last comment: You disparage the gospel of thomas numerous times...while repeatedly stating "the kingdom of god is already within you" in various different ways. Yet this is also stated int he book youre disparaging. What this video boils down to is you couldnt draw a real verifiable distinction between gnosticism and christian mysticism if you were stabdung before st peter and your answer was your entrance. No offense but youu got a lot to learn, brother.
Sir/Madame Gallini, You seem to take it extremely personal. Why do you care so much? You say "no offence", but it seems like you're the one who took offence for what's stated in the video. Right or wrong, why does it matter to you so much? There is a simple but big difference between the two. What is your reason for denying this? I'm a mystic, I don't need to search God in any book, not the Bible, nor any other text.
If one has lived what you are speaking on, they will understand; I being one - and for which I thank you for sharing this distinction. 'You search the scriptures thinking that in them you have life, but you do not come to Me so you may have life and life eternal.' - John 5:39-40
The key misunderstanding here is that gnostics don't think creation is evil, it is the created order. Our world is hostile to life. Scarcity and hierarchy exist everywhere, we have a created order of bare survival. The new creation is one were the order of the whole is one of grace and love, oriented towards the needs of the weak. Christianity stopped when the church became state sponsored.
You want to read to us what Paul / Saul of Tarsus has to say, but he contradicted Yeshua more than he cited him, so I don’t believe any of his half truths.
I just found your channel and downloaded the HMBS series. Cant wait to read your book...and maybe recommend it to some folks that I know who are 'seeking' for God. Thank you for sharing your insights and time with us!! ❤ Peace to you and yours through our Lord Jesus Christ
Gnostics arent trying to be initiated into anything. The knowledge is already within and already known, just not concious. Your entire premise that mysticism for the goal of uncovering inner knowledge with christian trappings, or gnostic trapping is any different is a matter of semantics that Christians play to pretend their mystics arent gnostic.
Really well done! I’m leading a book study on John Mark Comer’s practicing the way and has gotten interested in Christian mysticism as a result. I’m enjoying your channel a lot.
If you haven't read Irenaeus' "Heretics" book the "heresy hunters" of the church themselves ranted on the mystical experiences of the gnostics. In particular I would refer you to the chapter on Marcus, a "valentinian" gnostic christian who prepared a sacramental wine which brought, for all intents and purposes, a "mystical" experience to his followers which was the primary purpose of his ministry. Of course and as expected Irenaeus was not a fan of the gnostics, but we can learn a lot by reading what he had to say and reading between the lines of his condemnation and ranting to discover that there was a strong component of mystical experience in some gnostic christianity, and Valentinians were solidly christian, albeit, gnostic christianity. When we read the description of Ireneaus wrote about the sect that was practicing with Marcus it sounds a lot like a psychedelic preparation in the effect. We can't know for sure what was contained in this wine but according to the description a "purple / blue" substance was added to the sacramental wine. We know that there is one natural psychedelic substance which has this coloration and has been used worldwide for thousands of years and that is the compound of psilocybin contained in psychedelic mushrooms. These are easily accessed in all cultures throughout the world as they specifically grow mostly in the feces of ruminant animals like sheep, goats, cows, gazelle and so on and in wood chip substrate. All contain the compound with the purple/blue coloration. I can confirm in my own mystical practice as a gnostic christian that producing this by infusing in a wine looks as described by Ireneaus and produces the profound mystical effects that he took issue with. lol. I've seen the burning bushes, wheels with eyes, and the same that the prophets have seen. The only difference between myself and you, brother, perhaps, is that I do not accept the bodily resurrections, virgin births or supernaturalism but I absolutely stand by the mystical experiences I have personally encountered. Gnostic Christianity was and is a very diverse practice and there are those of us who are modern gnostic christians that fully embrace mystical experience and teaching.
Meanwhile: - Apostolic Christians and Protestants stand by Ephasians 5:18 firmly - Islam forbids usage of any drugs, even including alcohol - Mormons don't even drink coffee - Fifth Precept of Buddhism forbids intoxicating your mind, neither with alcohol nor psychedelics - etc etc You do realize you are in the minority? Even mainstream Sunni Islam is in the same boat. The idea to intoxicate yourself isn't the norm, the norm is to abstain. Someone else in the comment section said mystics don't follow any particular religion, so do you follow the same (non-)religion of mystics who abstain? Or is it a different mystic (non-)religion? Keep in mind I am not even arguing with the idea of "mystics of all religions are beyond religious divisions" (or however you would put it). I am arguing with YOUR idea what mysticism is.
Idk.. ive been studying gnosticism, platonism and neo-platonism for around 38 years. And whiel Im not even gnostic myself it cracks me up when a christian says "gnosticism beleives the world is evil" .... i mean just say "im completely biased and need a reason to hate gnostics"
@@nahue2512 stop being a lazy person, you don't even care to really understand the Gnostic position and view directly from the source but rather from hearsay
Just a remainder to some people reading this comment section (I know these terms might seem confusing): Gnosticism and neo-platonism are mutually exclusive. If you are really interested why, you can easily find answers on your own by studying these topics. I used to be really ignorant on what modern Christianity actually teaches and reading about this very old debate helped me collect my thoughts on some Christian dogmas. Most people won't benefit much, but if you are a skeptic like me (that is you have a certain kind of disbelieving stupidity in you) then it might help. Cheers.
I love how every Christian is not thinking about it, just appreciating the heavily Christian lensed video and every gnostic is appalled by the misinformation and sweeping statements made by commenters and the video
Gnosticism always struck me as a vain attempt to have some knowledge ahead of others, so it is not rooted in humility, and Jesus said anyone who knocks God will reveal himself so the key to any spiritual walk is humility, and those who are convinced it’s all about the intellect understanding and reasoning have missed the forest for the trees . I had someone tell me one, do you really believe that God hides himself from less intelligent people they don’t have the same mental capabilities as others, and that he only chooses the smart. I said no, he takes the foolish things. To confound the wise this is why I see value in mysticism over gnosticism Solomons send knowledge puffs up. This is why only by using the key of humility and true repentance can you see and understand what the Holy Spirit is trying to show you.
Without humility, or any other spiritual quality, 'Gnostics' wouldn't get anywhere We are all Gnostics on different levels of progress What it really mean is more advanced souls - who have advanced enough spiritually to be more aware of Intuition , more receptive to Intuition.. ( Intuition is knowing , Gnosticism is knowing ; It's a different word for the same thing )
@@-V-K- It is my understanding from the only gnostic person I know that they don’t believe in the resurrection And if that’s true they are heretics there is a huge difference, and seeking to grow closer to the risen lord through his Holy Spirit which I believe I see in mysticism, and the knowledge for knowledge sake that I have seen exhibited in the gnostics, and I do know that the Freemasons consider their belief system based on gnosticism And for that, I would agree it must be a heresy
The Gospel of Thomas is generally considered mystical, though it does contain elements that are often associated with Gnosticism. To understand this distinction, let's look at the characteristics of both: 1. Mysticism: Mysticism refers to the pursuit of direct, personal experience of the divine or the ultimate truth. It emphasizes inner transformation, self-discovery, and the search for enlightenment, often through personal insight and introspection. The Gospel of Thomas focuses on the idea of inner knowledge and spiritual awakening. It presents sayings of Jesus that encourage self-awareness, inner enlightenment, and finding the "kingdom of God" within oneself. It has a more individualistic approach to salvation, where the focus is on personal realization rather than external rituals or beliefs. 2. Gnosticism: Gnosticism, on the other hand, is a religious movement with a broader cosmological worldview that often emphasizes the acquisition of esoteric knowledge (gnosis) to transcend the material world and escape from the clutches of a flawed or lesser divine being (the Demiurge). Gnosticism often portrays the material world as corrupt and something to be overcome. The Gospel of Thomas contains some elements that resonate with Gnostic thought, particularly its emphasis on knowledge (gnosis) as the path to salvation. It speaks of finding the "kingdom" within and highlights the transformative power of understanding, which aligns with Gnostic themes of enlightenment. Differences: Mystical Gospel: The focus is on a personal, transformative experience of the divine that can lead to understanding and peace. The gospel is more about individual awakening rather than a complete cosmological system. Gnostic Gospel: While it shares the emphasis on hidden knowledge, Gnosticism generally incorporates a more detailed dualistic view of the material world and divine forces, which the Gospel of Thomas does not fully emphasize. It lacks the strong narrative or metaphysical elements often found in Gnostic texts, such as the Demiurge or the detailed struggle between divine and material realms. In Summary: The Gospel of Thomas is more accurately described as mystical, focusing on personal insight, spiritual awakening, and the direct experience of divine truth. While it contains elements of gnostic thought, it does not fully engage in the complex cosmology or dualism typical of Gnostic systems. Therefore, it's often categorized as mystical Christianity, though it has points of overlap with Gnosticism.
Thank you for that summary much appreciated. If I'd have gathered my thoughts on the subject and given it due diligence it's the conclusion I would of reached... Thank you once more
The Gospel of Thomas is the inward facing path of mystical Christianity. Having read,listened to and contemplated it many times it only leads me in that direction. The knock on effect is a growing lack of interest in cosmology the nature of the World etc
I would argue that the Gospel of Thomas is not a gnostic text, it lacks archons, aeons, sophia, pleroma, notions of reincarnation, the demiurge etc that you find in actual gnostic texts like Judas, apocryphon of John, Phillip, Gospel of Truth etc. Half of the sayings are found in synoptic gospels and many of themes in Thomas are shared between the Gospel of John, John's epistles, Acts, and Paul's epistles. I get that some of the sayings have confusing parabolic language but thats more a lack of scholar research done on the text due to it falling in obscurity until the mid-20th century.
Good video. Hurts a little to hear, those of us building a Gnostic tower this definitely stings. I definitely get a serotonin buzz when I find a meta text or a lexical clue that unlocks the meaning of a saying. It’s a bit like shopping for God when I’m studying. I like to think I am learning but maybe I am stalling?
Agree 100% on settling into the faith. Indian parable of digging a water well ❤ One thing to be mindful of is when we say the orthodoxy doesn’t have secret knowledge it’s a bit of a stretch bc then you unload all of the information about Christianity. Christian cosmology, theology, etc. that’s all information that needs to be unfolded in order for the initiate to develop in the faith. That’s just to say that the gnostics had different theology for sure but it’s not absurd it’s right in line with most religions except they were small fleeting sects. It’s like hearing a foreign language and calling it a secret language.
No, the Gnostic Christians weren't "small, fleeting sects..." The "orthodox/catholic" church leaders were afraid of the widespread influence of Gnostic groups, they wrote much concerning the Gnostics (of course with twisted information and slanderous words). Study history from secular sources, you will see that the "orthodox/catholic" church, supported by the Roman empire, persecuted and slaughtered the Gnostics - the Manichaeans, the Bogomills and the Cathars were the Gnostic groups that experienced heavy persecutions from the "orthodox/catholic" church.
the strict dualism only exists in some Gnostic Sects. The belief in dualism isn’t as binary as it comes off. Some gnostics believes that the material isn’t inherently bad but the way it was confounded was due to a misorder and misdirection. Also, as a budding Gnostic, maybe even a Gnostic Christian, I think there’s a lot misleading understanding what gnosis is. it’s not so much about “secrets” and “hidden truths” but it’s more about bring the unseen truth to the light. just like you said, Jesus said. Real gnosis becomes practical and expandable. Most people who talk about gnosticism do not even know the difference between the major sects. Sethian, Valentinianism, madaeism, etc, the list goes on. Christian Gnosticism is so much more than what is understood; not because its so secret because no one can get to it, but because it’s unseen due to a lack of the right attentiveness. some of the most monumental experiences of gnosis doesn’t come from a book, it comes from perception & divine will showing up in your life.
Fascinating and glad I watched it loving your videos, as a Christian and believer in Christ as God I find it difficult bat times to follow the gnostic thinking but it should still be studied to help better understand earlier belief and shouldn't just be discounted. Keep up good work bud
From what I can see, those who disagree with Gnosticism, disagree with the Nag Hammadi scriptures. Scriptures found in a cave in the 1940s. The canon gospels have had literal thousands of years of interpretation and saints to permeate culture to where even things we don't expressly view as Christian, have Christian roots. I've been working through both, and the criticisms of the Nag Hammadi library can easily be applied to the canonical gospels. We've just had more time establishing those as "Truth" As for Gnostic Belief on the Material world, my favorite explanation is this: If a sculpture is made of brilliant marble, then once again in clay. The issue is not form, but substrate. The world is flawed, its concept or form is not.
I would disagree with the original language thing the Bible was written in. To many people who miss translated the Bible, it is extremely important for EVERYONE to know the literal translation of the Bible so we know what it says then we can meditate on it and find a deeper understanding of it revealed by the Holy Spirit. Like Universal restoration for example, it wouldn't make sense if we used modern translations because they miss translated ALOT.
Really like this one. Made me think about all the other ego-projects I've got cooking. These things seem to crop up wherever people are... go figure. It's back to doing the thing, which can be boring, common, and repetitive. Or is it?
Gnostics weren’t a one people all thinking the same thing. It’s like calling Europeans, whitey, and then proceeding to act as if they are all one people.
I want to add some information to this. I get the point, gnostic and Christian overlap… Waking up lends us to a journey on what happened, so to speak. I found the Essene to be an interesting aspect of the early Christian ideologies. But here’s what really impressed me. The Christian Mystical Way (upper case?) was drowned out by the early dogmatic mechanisms of power differentials. So for the remainder of the world religions, they have their dogmatics and their mystics. But for some reason, Christianity developed into a purely dogmatic religion, with little or no mystery schooling at all. When was the last time you encountered a mystic Pastor? The mystical way is essential to deciphering the dogmatic. And once done, both are discarded. So a question arises - how can it be done that the mystic portion of the Christian path is magnified among practitioners to restore some sort of balance for that sector of society in modern times? We have to stop conflating Christ with personage. Jesus is the person.
How are orthodox Christians really any different than Gnostics? Both groups believe that they’ve discovered the real spiritual truth behind our reality and because of that they are saved. The only difference is what kind of knowledge each group claims leads one to salvation.
Thanks for the video. New to your channel and nice to see so many interested faith seekers out there. Not quite certain I am sold on your Gnostic take down and limiting of Christian criticism and or lack of cross over (ex. Eckhart admitted to taking a lot of his insights from many non-Christain sources - arguably a top three Christian Mystic). When you quoted from the Romans(?) and Paul regarding Paul speaking of the Gospel. You obviously do not mean the Synoptic Gospels (as we know well after). The (loosely termed) Gospel of Paul or Gospel of God was where Paul drew heavily on the Old Testament as being proven correct etc. through the coming of Jesus. I would argue that has little if any weight with Christian Mystics (though I may be entirely ignorant on this point). How do you tie this Gospel (?) in to refute Gnosticism. I don't believe Christian Mystics believe that God visited and only visited Jewish Prophets before Jesus and ending with Paul as he himself states. A lot of good arguments can be made that Paul had no shortage of ego as well (in line with what you accuse Gnosticism of). I would further posit that just because an early Christian deemed the four Gospels as sacrosanct and all others heretical does not exclude the value held within the Gospel of Thomas and Mary and John ....and likely many more we do not know about. If I listen to Eckhart or Teresa of Avilla I find them more in line with Thomas than the Gospel of Paul. "God beyond God" I'm seeking Christ Consciousness and am not unwilling to look to any religious source to come closer to attaining it (Thomas Merton and Keating also had this view I believe). And Yes though I remain far away from achieving such a state, my faith only increases every day and with that my understanding of life. And of one thing I am certain .....the more I meditate upon God the less I know him/her/source but the more I love him. My intellect and ego are learning to allow room.
Typically I only see Catholic (Me) and Orthodox views on mysticism from the Desert Fathers to Saints/Monks/Theologians [John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Meister Eckhart] I've always wondered about Protestant theologians on the topic & their flushing out of Theosis, the Nous, etc I do like the Kingdom Theology best laid out by RedeemedZoomer Parallel to Ortho-Cath writings/etc
Jon, I love you, my friend...but this isn't it. As a theologian myself, your understanding of Gnosticism doesn't seem to be well-rounded, and it does seem to have some glaring inaccuracies. I'd be happy to discuss this topic in detail (rather than just throwing an unwarranted wall of text at you), if you're interested. But I would first advise you to read a particular book on the subject - 'Gnosticism: New Light on the Ancient Tradition of Inner Knowing' by Stephan Hoeller. He's a great resource on Gnosticism and a leading expert in this area of knowledge. I hope you're well and that your new year is starting off on a good foot. Pax et Bonum, my friend.
1.) The Gospel of Thomas is not gnostic 2.) I think it’s pretty clear what the gnostics believed. Any mentions of Yaldabaoth, or Barbello, or anything of that sort, clearly indicates a gnostic tradition. 3.) I understand what the standard & accepted view is. I’m staunchly against that view. 4.) I appreciate you for trying to be gentle with people.
To be clear, gnosticism seems to indicate that there is another hidden deity, which is the true deity & gnosis of that deity’s existence, will free you from the deception of lesser deities. Once again, in particular, Yaldabaoth.
Gnosticism didn’t necessarily go away outright. It simply evolved into agnostic or atheist materialists who use scientism to unlock hidden knowledge. Both of the words Gnosticism and science both have “knowledge” as their root word
@@JeanDelucre2358 my guy, I never said anything about atheism. The majority of science adherents belong to the new age scientism religion. It’s philosophically a materialistic religion. The foundation of it is gnostic in a sense of unlocking hidden knowledge of the cosmos. The fact someone doesn’t believe in an afterlife doesn’t by default make them an atheist.
No, no, no. Your blatant dismissal and arrogance at around 7:23 was just too much to accept. Have you read any gnostic material? Was it an early Christian writing negatively about gnostic mysticism that you just repeated by saying it's based on egotism and knowing secret knowledge that others don't have. and presumably makes them feel superior? Is that not what you are doing by your blanket denigration of their motive based on ego? Have you actually read any of the gnostic spiritual and mystical texts? I suggest you read The Unknowable God. It's been a great inspiration to me as a Christian.
If any one believes they are a practicing gnostic and they have an Ego they will fail and are not true gnostics so you are wrong when you say it is an ego trip.
Interesting and informative video. There is a free book that relates to the video's subject, it is called The Divine Secret of Nothing by Vincent Morales. It is worth checking out.
Gnosticism is a blending of Chistianity with Pagen ideas. It started with both Simon Magus overtly, and Philo of Alexandria subtly. Philos ideas crept in through Justin Martyr- and catalyzed at the conflict in Nicea. Clement of Alexandria loved gnosticism. Just his version of it. He was a "mystic". There was a huge conflicts on what Jesus' Kingdom looked like, one group taught it was literal and the other taught it allegorically. The literal was wiped away by the time of Nicea, along with being able to anathemitize anyone that rocked their boat. Like Novation, Hypollytus, Arius (who was just repeating what he was taught by Alexander of Alexandria), ect
Isn’t it fair to say that Christianity is a blending of Judaism sects with Greek/Roman religious sects? Like Jesus being “The Word” was pretty clearly taken from Philo
@tookie36 Maybe what developed at Nicea. I consider RC gnostic in many ways. Its set up like a mystery cult. What if the Church that married Rome was Mystery Babylon instead of the real Bride of Christ. A body of real believers, many whom are forgotten by the world and story untold (for the most part), the victors writing "history" or at least shaping the narrative for years to come. And Jesus being the Word made flesh is written. The Word being a lot more than words on a page, yet also brought to memory by it.
@tookie36 and Philo was a sadducee, literal related to Herod. They did blend Greek thought, indirect revelation by things that are made.. with Judaism, knowledge via direct Revelation. The Jews had been corrupting themselves going way back though. Taking in foreign Idols and ways of the people around them. And guess what? God was never happy at them when they did. It was always just a remnant who remained. It will be like that for Christians, too. Wolves creep in.. false prophets, and those who did not even accept the Apostles (3 John).
@ Look at Satan in Judaism today. He is an angel doing gods will to tempt us so we can freely choose to love god. Many argue that satan as an adversary against god is an influence of Zoroastrianism. It’s very difficult to suggest your understanding of Christianity is from the “true” Judaism that started with Adam, Abraham, or wherever your historical figure comes in depending on your branch of Christianity
No such thing as "gnosticism". A sloppy term. Pre nicene christianities was diverse. There is spiritual gold to be found in many places. Don't fall for the cheap mistake of believing slander and rumors by those who couldn’t discern with carefulness and true humility in long gone past.
No, I do not know 'a lot'. I think we, all of us, need to help out in these matters and everyone who is sincere have something of value to bring us all. I think we lose way more than we gain if we go about these topics without finely attune ourselves to nuances and multiple depths.
Pre-Nicene Christianity was not diverse. The teachings of Christ & the Apostles was very clear and Gnostic teachings contradicted it from the beginning.
@@MarylandJeetKuneDoJustin Martyr was referring to Philo of Alxandria who created his own Gnosticism that was picked up by people like Clement of Alexandria and Origen. Gnosticism being defined as synchronizing Greek/Pagan ideas with true Christianity. Clement of Alexanria loved gnosticism. Just his version of it.
So, the way I understand it, you're claiming that traditional Christian Mysticism is a well tread path up the mountain, and gnosticism (and by extension agnosticism) is simply a path around the mountain, leading one in circles? What's interesting is that the God Seed (as Meister Ekhart put it) is in line with the Sufi teaching of the Beloved, and in non-dualistic eastern tradition there is the Brahman. God clearly offers multiple paths to his love because he knows we are all his children.
You talked about nothing really. Gnosticism says that this world is a deceipt created by a false god. Plain and simple. You've stated this and yet didn't provide any knowledge as to why this statement is false according to your believe. Saying that it is an initiation rite, which is not, and talking about ego, which is found everywhere in the human realm, doesn't prove a thing. I put some consideration into gnosticism because how can such a perfect and good god create such a horrible world? Also John 18:36
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
From what I have read of the gospel of Thomas, it is about direct experience of God. So it is similar to Christian mysticism, I suggest the same. Who am I to suggest what I suggest, well I have experienced the state of god consciousness, and a knowledge of reality comes with that. Understand this, knowing is very different from an opinion derived from hearsay.
“Maybe it’s time to abandon the ego project of always knowing more than everyone else 10:17 …the Christ you already know is more than enough.” So true. Sometimes it seems like the building up and tearing down of the ego project was a necessary prelude to this realization.
Idk that makes Christ sound like Yaldabaoth. A god who knows enough to assume He/She/It is The sole God worthy of our worship, giving gnostic vibes to me 🤷🏼
@@Drollerie this is pure ignorance. Christian mysticism is a form of knowing TRUTH in LIGHT beyond the veils of the devils lies. Gnosticism is a form of knowing TRUTH in LIGHT beyond the veils of the devils lies.
You're involved in an EGO Project where you try to make your version better even though it's exactly the same.
A painful process at times for me.
Youve really spoken to me with this one, Jon. You've described a lot of my spiritual journey here as I overlooked Christianity for so long because it was mainstream. That arrogance is still being broken down to this day. Youre message was true and humbling. Thank you for the work that you do. God bless! 😊
To fill a cup requires it be empty, if it be full of your own ideas and judgements, what room is left for Christ's Truth?
Is there only christs truths in gods creation? did god create left over garbage truths to be left in the winter snow, to be forgotten to history, since all we need is Christ? Or did Christ give us not a fish to eat for dinner, but the means to bring our own dinner through our own hands? To follow through the whispers of guidance to follow his word while maintaining agency and admiring the many other truths of gods unfathomable creation? It’s a personal question I’d ask yourself.
@jjjones4458 Beloved, the cause of much misunderstanding in Holy Scriptures, is because we measure the writings of many ages ago, without cognitive recognition as we read, that the Intellect of those ages, were far more simpler than in this Age, where even a child would know more than they ever would or could. The Darkness is the Growth of our Intellects, for it is falling into a state of spiritual entropy, you now Abide in the Age where Jesus said none could work, He means spiritual work would Stop. The Prowess of the now enlarged Intellect which works by intellectualy agreeing with the Scriptures contents, whilst Not in reality following in Spirit, allows many to take great Titles and make of themselves a 'Somebody' which is the Goal hidden behind all there 'Interpretations' do Not envy them, we have just described those that Jesus does not know. We are not allowed to debate, only tell, for our work is Not for this Age, but the one which shall grow from the Ashes of this one. God is Very Real, Jesus is His Template and the Way He requires you to be, in thought and word and deed, Faith requires Not the Permission of the intellect to Walk towards God's Truth, it was Why Jesus Created it, so you need not walk in the Darkness of your Own light which intellect Imagines it is, for if 'Your' light be Darkness, how great is that Darkness?
You've finally helped answer some of the biggest questions I've been wrestling with. Thank you for making this video.
FALSE : Gnostic is a religious movement from 2nd to 3rd century.
TRUE : Gnosticism is rooted in the BIBLICAL Truth that the old testament god (Yhwh/Jehovah) is NOT morally flawless, neither is he perfect in his wisdom and knowledge. Gnostics realize that Yhwh/Jehovah is of a different nature from the Father who sent Yeshua the Messiah to earth : that Yeshua in the four gospels reveals clearly the nature of His Father to be different from Yhwh/Jehovah who is described in the old testament to be capricious, genocidal, vengeful and patriarchal.
The Gnostics rightfully realize that the purpose and work of Yeshua the Messiah on earth is NOT dependent on the old testament narrative even though there are connections that can be made between them and the teaching of Messiah.
I just left gnosticism for Orthodoxy. This vid came right on time.
Well done !
Took the same Route! Alan Watts made me curious about knowledge and experience but led me astray. Seraphim Rose made me curious about the truth which led me to Christ
Welcome home
I came to a conclusion a while back. To quote Bruce Lee:
“Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick.”
Faith in Christ is the path to salvation. When some people start to dip their toes into the mystery, they feel that their is more to know, or want a better cognitive understanding of why faith is enough. Perhaps they think that faith isn't enough, and want to dig deeper to find what else is needed. Ultimately once they understand the mystery, they come back to the initial conclusion that faith is all they need. The journey (knowledge) isn't required, but they needed it to lead them (back) to faith.
i love this quote, it is perfect for things like Truth an prayer. before God, a prayer was a prayer, the truth the truth. then i met God, and a prayer was no longer a prayer, and the truth no longer the truth. then i became firm in my faith, and a prayer was a prayer, and the truth the truth
@skaus2184 thanks for describing christian mystics
The journey (knowledge) is at some point in life (this or any other) needed to deepen your faith. We have a mind and a heart - I believe we are intended to use both. The third time the punch wasn't just the same punch or just the same kick - it was much better, much stronger. And he wouldn't have gotten there without the middle step.
The algorithm is starting to freak me out.
I left Russian Orthodoxy for traditional Catholicism. But even before I was Orthodox I had a combination of Pagan and New Age practises and beliefs.
Thing is, I now know the truth of Christ, and I can’t ignore that. Nor do I want to. But I also know the truth about physics, energy, ancient pre Christian practises, the power of water and the significance of the seasons. Astrology is also legitimate as it is a part of the Universe which was created by God. What we do with those things is potentially dangerous, however. Which doesn’t stop them from being true. However I understand the mainstream Christian effort to put all of those things into the “NOPE” basket. Because it really can be a slippery slope.
All of this is to say, thank you for this! It feels needed, as I often don’t feel safe to share in the fact that Christianity can be as simple or complex as one could want. The complex pathusually involving a degree of mysticism.
Neither path makes the other less true. But I personally do enjoy the seeking of the deeper, smaller more nuanced parts of Faith that still all point to God’s glory.
I subscribed immediately and look forward to more content.
This is probably the most correct conclusion I've come across so far👍
Wonderfully said!!!
Thank you for this, especially for highlighting the potential root of pride in desiring to know more than others... definitely felt a check when I heard that. God bless you for your work.
Thank you for this. Seeing very clearly where we are here. That is, in space and time, where unspeakable suffering, loss and death commands the peaks of human experience. Seeing this clearly, and being sympathetic to the natural human reaction of denial. In other words having compassion for those vast majority of 8 billion folk who distract themselves from this existential nightmare with transient consolations. Such as, well, pretty much anything that takes our minds off the dark truths that are the foundation of this space and time reality. As I say, death, loss, suffering. And being compassionate also to those vast billions who rather than denial seek a higher power to save them from the downsides of this hellish realm.
I totally understand why we turn away from it. And this turning away does much to explain the madness in the world. For hardly anyone is being honest. And where dishonesty and self-delusion reigns madness thrives. For no one is being themselves. Everyone is to some degree or another playing a game. We are in fantasy land, acting. Doing our best to pretend something can work when it’s actually fundamentally broken. A busted idea that can never work except in a sputtering spluttering way. There is no charmed life. Because even if you do ok yourself for a while and die easy, some you love will not, and in the dark corners of your mind you will know that somewhere hellfire is burning up the innocents in pain beyond description. So we pretend it’s ok. It’s not but I get why we pretend. Because this is just the way it is. So, in this way, dark forces can assume
some apparent moral virtue. They can speak truth to power. The truth is this world is broken and the darkest among us are truth tellers, dark saints. They cut through the bullshit and tell it as it is. Brad Pitt’s character, a paid assassin, at the end of the movie Killing Them Softly
‘This guy wants to tell me we’re living in a community. Don’t make me laugh! I live in America. And in America you are on your own. America’s not a country it’s just a business. Now fucking pay me.’
For America read ‘here’, the world. We are all pretending it’s ok when it isn’t. So that lack of integrity, that moral failure to be honest, lets us down. I get it, I do. But it destroys us in the end, because it’s pretend. Our honesty is our immunity against evil. Our innocence, surely the most powerful force in existence, is thrown aside. Every word we say is built on sand. Every act, every moment of being comes from a person who from day one has thrown themselves away. Because ‘If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
We pretend and lie to ourselves about the truth of our predicament. This is not the truth and this imprisons us and is a vote for death.
We say to darkness- I am dark too. And here’s the deal. I won’t ask you who you are if u leave me alone. If u don’t question me too closely. I’ll abide in your vale of tears if u let me give a rictus smile and we can sally forth to certain death.
Well this not the truth. And those amongst us brave enough to see it as it is, the mystics, will break out and desperately seek to turn our heads to the Light.
This is Christ. This is the perfect child of God. The spotless infinite truth. But you can’t leave the dark unless you turn your back upon it. That means for an unnerving moment letting go of consolations and falling into an abyss where light steps in. This is the coal face
for the mystic. Looking at evil and seeing light. It’s a cosmic confrontation we are more than able to win. We are cosmic, our every thought is cosmic and beyond. Nothing con harm that but we can pretend it isn’t so.
In other words Just Be The Love We are Born to Be
Thank you for this. Reminds me of the little girl (Mary Loo Who?) who gets out of bed on Christmas Eve and sees the Grinch stealing all the toys and stuffing the tree up the chimney. She completely disarms him with her innocence. And how the Wicked Witch says to Dorothy: “who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness”.
Thank you, it just split out of me and it took quite a bit to press send as one feels one is likely to be ridiculed. I only came across Jon the other day and I was blown away by his accuracy and succinctness. This was inspiring and allowed me to ‘indulge’ myself saying things that arrived in my consciousness. What I wrote is only a level of awareness and I smiled to myself as I read in his book the words ‘The first step to healing is to see the wound.’ Which is what I took ages to say! But levels beyond that see a world redeemed, resolved and forgiven. That’s innocent. Truth. I really appreciate you reading what I wrote and seeing into it. I guess I’m ’coming out’
Gnosticism isn’t about worldly or esoteric knowledge through reading texts, it is experiential knowledge through self knowledge. Us gnostics also believe that the god Christian’s pray to is not such a nice guy, he isn’t the one, true, unknowable creator that cannot be seen and cannot be named.
I agree… it stops with that war god for me . Why has an Israeli national god taken over the beliefs off man ? 😂😂😂
This was interesting. Great to hear you explore this subject. Looking forward to more
Completely wrong about gnostic exclusivity. Gnosis is a personal experience of God available to everyone, in their own time, their own way. Christian mysticists believe that the genocidal god of the old testament is Christ, we (gnostics) don't. We fully reject murder of men, women, children and believe that only the devil requires worship and sacrifice.
I'm an Orthodox Christian. There's been a lot of misunderstandings of the Holy Scriptures and what Christianity is. I would recommend going to an Orthodox Church and ask questions there. From my humble opinion...if you understand ancient symbolism, it appears the difference between gnosticism and Christianity is that Christians are able to perceive and see the narrative of both the vertical aspect of reality and the horizontal aspect of reality and it's True Source(The Holy Trinity). Meanwhile gnostics only see the horizontal framework of reality, while completely overlooking or just oblivious to the vertical framework. So to say that God is homicidal is........well....a little expected 🤷🏾. It's important to remember when reading archaic texts to not translate it using our 21st century intuitions. This generation is not the original audience of The Holy Scriptures. It was meant to read in a symbolic manner. But seriously, look up a local Parrish and ask questions there my friend ☦️.
@ to say that scripture is only symbolical is considered heresy. The church has killed many for such claims. Christ freed us from the old testament demon god, just like the early church fathers believed. Gnosticism is for those who know, not mearly believe. Anyone can believe, knowing takes effort. Happy New year.
@@Lux-Aeternum1 there's a difference between symbols and metaphors. When I say symbolic, people tend to assume I'm talking about metaphors...no. symbols is the complementation of 2 truths( higher meaning& concrete facts) that points toward a higher identity. It's right there in the 1st verse of the Bible on what a symbol is.
And secondly God telling Israelites to destroy other pagan nations is the equivalent of God telling America and Great Britain to destroy the Nazis. In ancient times, there was not much of a separation between a nations religious and political afflictions. In our time period there is a huge chasm between the religious and political... particularly here in the West. God sent the Israelites to destroy nations who were doing dark practices(sacrificing babies just to name a few). Pagan nations worshipped dark spirits. It still happens today weather people realize it at all.
God bless you. I pray this will be the year Christ truly reveals Himself to you. Christianity can't fully be understood from looking at it from a modern lens. In a way you have to understand how ancient thinking works to get a hint at what the Scriptures is pointing at.
Anyone can have pride and believe that they know it all, no one is all knowing, only God. Gnosticism is for those who are looking for an experience and power through knowledge (gnosis) rather than search for the truth and living it (Theosis), because you aren't satisfied with the truth. Christ freed us from the father? He was the messiah and fulfilled the prophecy of the old testament and was a Jew? How would gnostics know that he was the chosen one without the Torah predicting it? The Jews (followers of the demigrue) were a small population of the world as well. Christianity wasn't a thing until after Christ came so you must mean he or his followers was the deceiver?
Incredible conversation 💚 I just found you and I resisted Christianity so long! I searched Buddhism, which gave me so much knowledge of self.. then found New Gnosticism.. and finally found myself again in a pit so deep, only Jesus could pull me out. Fortunately I have studied many texts.. I always wanted to be like Jesus.. I’m still struggling to define a theology in ways that don’t leave others confused.. but I know if you truly seek self, you find God. If you truly seek God, you find yourself.. and when life is truly spiritual, you see the battle between dark and light for our hearts and minds.. our soul, when not in Jesus hands, can be lost. And yes usually through pride. I think I’ll leave the theological arguments for people smarter than I am.. my work is service and bringing Christs light to those who still suffer. We all have our purpose but this life.. I just want the Love of Jesus to heal those I come into contact with. Thanks for the explanation. I’m fascinated so I’m gonna keep listening.
Thank you, Jon. I'm delighted to see you back in my feed, and I hope you are well. God bless.
I guess this is why I'm not a Christian mystic, I'm just a mystic period. As mystics we really don't need a specific religion, though religions are helpful. That said all this arguing over what is the true Christian mysticism seems silly to me, as a mystic what matters isn't the belief system, it's do the tools work, do they help us come to an experience of the divine. So long as the tools work everything else is insignificant. No reason not to use tools from a wider variety of places, just make sure you come to understand they don't all lead to exactly the same experience, but if your aim is to know the full extent of what is possible to know then by all means travel around.
The problem with that approach is that it is strictly pragmatic. There is no basis of truth. If it is entirely based on personal feelings then there is no way to transmit the information onward to others. You dismiss the idea of “beliefs” but you just expressed your belief that we shouldn’t have specific beliefs. You can’t escape needing faith, so why not find and commit to the true faith? (Aka Jesus Christ)
@@SeekingTheLogos @technoshman101 that's why real magic workers don't bother with mystics, mystics are so busy comparing the size of their light dongs, moral and spiritual grandstanding, and denigrating the knowledge of the dark arts or eastern esotericism. Mysticism is a tool for gnosis and self-discovery, just like our relationship with the divine, we follow the process you get the results.
Truth is relative, truth is a yard stick set by the truth teller, if you are truly mystics, you will understand the difference between the subjective, objective and cosmic consciousness states.
May the divine nature of our beings set you away from the path of Sheepdom and Wolfdom.
The problem is that’s it’s so easy to be misled, by our pride, by false light, by emptiness! Zero belief gets sticky when you get deeper in the spiritual. So much of life is worlds we don’t see with human eyes. When you meet demons, will you think they’re angels? Believe.. it’s not all empty. Jesus guards the hearts and minds with his teaching and spirit of truth, so we can navigate the inner planes without becoming snacks. I’m not saying you’re wrong… I’m just saying read the gospel with an open heart and an open mind. If truth doesn’t ring, well, at least you know that. Yes, there are powerful mystics in many traditions… only Jesus drained his blood into the dirt for the salvation of sinners and died for them and rose again.
@@merilee I'm confused why I'm not seeing my response to Seeking the logos which covered much of what you're saying.
I'll reiterate what I replied to him with at least one part of it anyway, which is that nothing in what I said says no belief. It says no need for belief, that's different than not having belief. It also lowers the priority of belief, where as in Christianity belief is of central importance but any true mystic knows from experience that belief is at very least of tertiary importance.
In descending order of importance
1. Tools and techniques that reliably trigger mystical experience
This first one requires belief in the technique itself, but this belief is only necessary until sufficient experiential data is acquired. And this belief is very different than belief in a divine entity that has to be continual, and can't ever fully be experienced.
2. The experience itself
3. Rational phenomenological assessment of experience that allows us to differentiate between different types of experience. 3 includes the value of a community for sharing experiential knowledge and challenging each other to be more rigorous in our understanding of what is happening.
4. Belief that is founded on mystical experience
I would add an optional 5th point, faith in the concept of a higher power. This faith in the concept of a higher power is differentiated by the conventional faith which assumes the higher power is real despite any reliable evidence to prove such. Here faith in the concept of good admits we don't know but recognizes the pragmatic value of such a profound concept as a concept in a deity or massively transcendent and or immanent higher power. Such a value is akin to a supernormal stimuli in motivating us to actually find out the deeper truths of existence.
As a mystical atheist I believe in the concept of God as a useful tool and conceptual supernormal stimuli, I just don't believe in the actuality of a god. And I prefer the Hindu system of deities as each deity meditated upon helps us access different states of consciousness, so this gives a clearer map for mystical exploration.
@@merilee this also by the way is the reason many religions don't like their mystical sides, mystics are a threat to the power of the church. Why do you need the church if you can experience the divine yourself?
I think this is a mistake though, I think there is much value to the church that goes above and beyond belief in anything. And that having a larger number of people who have mystical experiences can only strengthen any given religion.
I'm an atheist who is all for religion and belief. I don't think we need belief to be mystics but I don't begrudge anyone having beliefs or having religion. Heck I sometimes go to different religious institutions, Christian and others, just to get the energetic feel of being I'm such a location, it's very vitalizing, and each religion is beautiful in this sense.
We really need to stop fighting over such nonsense as who's religion is superior, the world needs religion and different religions fighting each other only encourages more people to leave religion.
Doesn't the Bible say to judge them by their fruits? If you want people to think your religion is so superior just do enough good shit that eventually people can't deny it's amazing. Right now there is nothing in the fruits that says Christianity is better than any other religion.
I respect your point of view but I don’t entirely agree with it. I was following an Orthodox Christian path when I had a vision and encounter with a serpentine entity with a lion-like face in my mind-twenties. It came out of a portal and entered my room through a cloud back in 1991 during a period of an existential crisis and a dark night of the soul. This is the entity that some of the Gnostic texts refer to as Yaldabaoth or the Demiurge. Regardless if we call it Christian mysticism or Gnostic mysticism, isn’t the end goal to improve ourselves and world conditions rather than becoming entangled in semantics?
How did this encounter shape you?
@@The_Real_Casey_Timmins There was much more to the experience than I can fit in this comment section, but it gave me proof that we are more than just chemistry and molecules...the soul is real.
Good to see you putting out videos again Jon !
You call gnosticism, seeking the divine truths hidden by the demiurge to find a personal experience of our indwelling spirit an ego project, then describe christian mysticism as exactly that. Then make a false dichotomy between the two things in order to soothe your christian ego.
When people set out to intentionally misunderstand something, so they can then disparrieage it in order tonfeel right.. what you did in this video, is not only the real EGO project, but also a sign that the deceiver holds veils before you still.
Agreed. This video just confirmed so much of what I already curious about on this topic.
@@GalliniFamily amen brother, he clearly has no understanding of Gnosticism and didn’t even try. I left Christianity because most are so closed minded and think the Bible is the only spiritual text anyone should ever read.
While I don't agree with everything said here, I found it interesting that not all Gnostics were Christians, but that Gnostic Christianity was just one branch or version of Gnosticism.
It’s strange to us now bc our religious landscape isn’t as diverse as when Christ was born. But you can see a good reflection (in my opinion) in the diversity in India/hinduism.
In the first century there were many different Jewish sects influencing and being influenced by the surrounding Greek/roman cultures. Then, boom-Jesus hits the scene, and, like a suncatcher, the surrounding cultures all tried to make sense of the phenomenon of Jesus.
@@tookie36 there is NO such phenomenon named "Je-zeus/Jesus" in the first century and the so-called Christian "Jesus/Iesous" is a Constantinian remake and twisting of the original first century Yeshua the Messiah
@vtino4825 Now let's be fair here. Yes Yeshua was his birth name and Jesus is the modern version of his name after it's been filtered through a few different languages. That's no different than having the name Matthias in German and Matthew in English. Names tend to change as they change languages. However God is intelligent enough to whether we say Jesus or Yeshua, He knows who we're talking about.
They were they were just early Christian’s before the Christian religion was formed
I’m glad you made this video,
I was raised Christian, left the church became pagan for a bit but eventually that led me to Christ, at this point I considered myself a Valentinian Christian, I went to a mainline Episcopalian church for quite some time (and still attend frequently). I don’t know what it was exactly, a borderline mystical experience perhaps, but I ended up coming to the conclusion of this video one day kneeling at the altar rail waiting for communion.
I don’t need some deeper mystical ideology. The old school Christian faith is mystical enough.
Thank you. ❤The goal of mystical Christianity (as I see it) is: "Unbroken fellowship with the presence of God."
Thank you brother, i resonate with your approach to mysticism, i think it is rooted in humility and soberness. 🙏
Video couldn’t have popped into my feed at a better time. Thank you so much and God bless you.
10:36 very well said. All things come from God, in that there is unity, which is why he saved the sinners and is still saving all of us who sin. Operating in the clear, not obscure, knowledge that all things come from God, spoken into existence by The Word, helps us better understand how to become more Christ-like and grow in Christ. Very well said.
What's interesting is that both claim subjective experience via text, prayer, belief that suspends logic, faith, and the acceptence of information that has been passed down that is only proven through subjective exp. It seems that the possibility of one man experiencing both in one life would be well, not worth debate, decleration, or either humble or arrogant vocalization but perhaps a silent knowing; A peace that passes understanding.
One last comment: You disparage the gospel of thomas numerous times...while repeatedly stating "the kingdom of god is already within you" in various different ways. Yet this is also stated int he book youre disparaging.
What this video boils down to is you couldnt draw a real verifiable distinction between gnosticism and christian mysticism if you were stabdung before st peter and your answer was your entrance.
No offense but youu got a lot to learn, brother.
Sir/Madame Gallini,
You seem to take it extremely personal. Why do you care so much? You say "no offence", but it seems like you're the one who took offence for what's stated in the video. Right or wrong, why does it matter to you so much?
There is a simple but big difference between the two. What is your reason for denying this?
I'm a mystic, I don't need to search God in any book, not the Bible, nor any other text.
@martamariotto1181 there is no difference between a gnostic and a christian mystic
@@GalliniFamily And yet... I'm not a gnostic.
If one has lived what you are speaking on, they will understand; I being one - and for which I thank you for sharing this distinction.
'You search the scriptures thinking that in them you have life, but you do not come to Me so you may have life and life eternal.' - John 5:39-40
The key misunderstanding here is that gnostics don't think creation is evil, it is the created order. Our world is hostile to life. Scarcity and hierarchy exist everywhere, we have a created order of bare survival. The new creation is one were the order of the whole is one of grace and love, oriented towards the needs of the weak. Christianity stopped when the church became state sponsored.
You want to read to us what Paul / Saul of Tarsus has to say, but he contradicted Yeshua more than he cited him, so I don’t believe any of his half truths.
I just found your channel and downloaded the HMBS series. Cant wait to read your book...and maybe recommend it to some folks that I know who are 'seeking' for God. Thank you for sharing your insights and time with us!! ❤ Peace to you and yours through our Lord Jesus Christ
I desperately needed to hear this - thank you for this sir 🫡🫡
Gnostics arent trying to be initiated into anything. The knowledge is already within and already known, just not concious.
Your entire premise that mysticism for the goal of uncovering inner knowledge with christian trappings, or gnostic trapping is any different is a matter of semantics that Christians play to pretend their mystics arent gnostic.
Good observation.
Really well done! I’m leading a book study on John Mark Comer’s practicing the way and has gotten interested in Christian mysticism as a result. I’m enjoying your channel a lot.
This came at the right time, thanks
If you haven't read Irenaeus' "Heretics" book the "heresy hunters" of the church themselves ranted on the mystical experiences of the gnostics. In particular I would refer you to the chapter on Marcus, a "valentinian" gnostic christian who prepared a sacramental wine which brought, for all intents and purposes, a "mystical" experience to his followers which was the primary purpose of his ministry. Of course and as expected Irenaeus was not a fan of the gnostics, but we can learn a lot by reading what he had to say and reading between the lines of his condemnation and ranting to discover that there was a strong component of mystical experience in some gnostic christianity, and Valentinians were solidly christian, albeit, gnostic christianity.
When we read the description of Ireneaus wrote about the sect that was practicing with Marcus it sounds a lot like a psychedelic preparation in the effect. We can't know for sure what was contained in this wine but according to the description a "purple / blue" substance was added to the sacramental wine. We know that there is one natural psychedelic substance which has this coloration and has been used worldwide for thousands of years and that is the compound of psilocybin contained in psychedelic mushrooms. These are easily accessed in all cultures throughout the world as they specifically grow mostly in the feces of ruminant animals like sheep, goats, cows, gazelle and so on and in wood chip substrate. All contain the compound with the purple/blue coloration.
I can confirm in my own mystical practice as a gnostic christian that producing this by infusing in a wine looks as described by Ireneaus and produces the profound mystical effects that he took issue with. lol. I've seen the burning bushes, wheels with eyes, and the same that the prophets have seen.
The only difference between myself and you, brother, perhaps, is that I do not accept the bodily resurrections, virgin births or supernaturalism but I absolutely stand by the mystical experiences I have personally encountered. Gnostic Christianity was and is a very diverse practice and there are those of us who are modern gnostic christians that fully embrace mystical experience and teaching.
Meanwhile:
- Apostolic Christians and Protestants stand by Ephasians 5:18 firmly
- Islam forbids usage of any drugs, even including alcohol
- Mormons don't even drink coffee
- Fifth Precept of Buddhism forbids intoxicating your mind, neither with alcohol nor psychedelics
- etc etc
You do realize you are in the minority? Even mainstream Sunni Islam is in the same boat. The idea to intoxicate yourself isn't the norm, the norm is to abstain.
Someone else in the comment section said mystics don't follow any particular religion, so do you follow the same (non-)religion of mystics who abstain? Or is it a different mystic (non-)religion?
Keep in mind I am not even arguing with the idea of "mystics of all religions are beyond religious divisions" (or however you would put it). I am arguing with YOUR idea what mysticism is.
Idk.. ive been studying gnosticism, platonism and neo-platonism for around 38 years. And whiel Im not even gnostic myself it cracks me up when a christian says "gnosticism beleives the world is evil" .... i mean just say "im completely biased and need a reason to hate gnostics"
You have 38 years worth of study and yet don't care enough to give an argument?
@@nahue2512 stop being a lazy person, you don't even care to really understand the Gnostic position and view directly from the source but rather from hearsay
The funny thing is that even the bible says the world is evil (John 17:14-16, 2 Corinthians 4:4, 1 John 2:15-16
@@vtino4825 what? I'm not even against gnosticism lol. He just didn't stated any argument. People seem to be getting more stupid by the day
Just a remainder to some people reading this comment section (I know these terms might seem confusing):
Gnosticism and neo-platonism are mutually exclusive. If you are really interested why, you can easily find answers on your own by studying these topics. I used to be really ignorant on what modern Christianity actually teaches and reading about this very old debate helped me collect my thoughts on some Christian dogmas. Most people won't benefit much, but if you are a skeptic like me (that is you have a certain kind of disbelieving stupidity in you) then it might help. Cheers.
Very good lesson and talk.
Thankyou my brother. I really needed this right now.
I love how every Christian is not thinking about it, just appreciating the heavily Christian lensed video and every gnostic is appalled by the misinformation and sweeping statements made by commenters and the video
Clear, very solid. Thank you for this excellent distinction between the two.
This style is DOPE! Felt like I was watching a real document on Netflix.
Thanks for this loving pastorally flavored admonition 😊
Great message. Thanks!
Gnosticism always struck me as a vain attempt to have some knowledge ahead of others, so it is not rooted in humility, and Jesus said anyone who knocks God will reveal himself so the key to any spiritual walk is humility, and those who are convinced it’s all about the intellect understanding and reasoning have missed the forest for the trees . I had someone tell me one, do you really believe that God hides himself from less intelligent people they don’t have the same mental capabilities as others, and that he only chooses the smart. I said no, he takes the foolish things. To confound the wise this is why I see value in mysticism over gnosticism Solomons send knowledge puffs up. This is why only by using the key of humility and true repentance can you see and understand what the Holy Spirit is trying to show you.
Why are you believing in stereotypes made by those who themselves thought their faith was the only right one?
@@MikaPilgrim I don’t believe you read my entire comment. God bless you.
I did read it and adressed the either/or broad strokes you painted with. It is a very delicate topic. God bless you too friend.
Without humility, or any other spiritual quality, 'Gnostics' wouldn't get anywhere
We are all Gnostics on different levels of progress
What it really mean is more advanced souls - who have advanced enough spiritually to be more aware of Intuition , more receptive to Intuition..
( Intuition is knowing , Gnosticism is knowing ; It's a different word for the same thing )
@@-V-K- It is my understanding from the only gnostic person I know that they don’t believe in the resurrection And if that’s true they are heretics there is a huge difference, and seeking to grow closer to the risen lord through his Holy Spirit which I believe I see in mysticism, and the knowledge for knowledge sake that I have seen exhibited in the gnostics, and I do know that the Freemasons consider their belief system based on gnosticism And for that, I would agree it must be a heresy
I appreciate your Ministry.
The Gospel of Thomas is generally considered mystical, though it does contain elements that are often associated with Gnosticism. To understand this distinction, let's look at the characteristics of both:
1. Mysticism:
Mysticism refers to the pursuit of direct, personal experience of the divine or the ultimate truth. It emphasizes inner transformation, self-discovery, and the search for enlightenment, often through personal insight and introspection.
The Gospel of Thomas focuses on the idea of inner knowledge and spiritual awakening. It presents sayings of Jesus that encourage self-awareness, inner enlightenment, and finding the "kingdom of God" within oneself. It has a more individualistic approach to salvation, where the focus is on personal realization rather than external rituals or beliefs.
2. Gnosticism:
Gnosticism, on the other hand, is a religious movement with a broader cosmological worldview that often emphasizes the acquisition of esoteric knowledge (gnosis) to transcend the material world and escape from the clutches of a flawed or lesser divine being (the Demiurge). Gnosticism often portrays the material world as corrupt and something to be overcome.
The Gospel of Thomas contains some elements that resonate with Gnostic thought, particularly its emphasis on knowledge (gnosis) as the path to salvation. It speaks of finding the "kingdom" within and highlights the transformative power of understanding, which aligns with Gnostic themes of enlightenment.
Differences:
Mystical Gospel: The focus is on a personal, transformative experience of the divine that can lead to understanding and peace. The gospel is more about individual awakening rather than a complete cosmological system.
Gnostic Gospel: While it shares the emphasis on hidden knowledge, Gnosticism generally incorporates a more detailed dualistic view of the material world and divine forces, which the Gospel of Thomas does not fully emphasize. It lacks the strong narrative or metaphysical elements often found in Gnostic texts, such as the Demiurge or the detailed struggle between divine and material realms.
In Summary:
The Gospel of Thomas is more accurately described as mystical, focusing on personal insight, spiritual awakening, and the direct experience of divine truth. While it contains elements of gnostic thought, it does not fully engage in the complex cosmology or dualism typical of Gnostic systems. Therefore, it's often categorized as mystical Christianity, though it has points of overlap with Gnosticism.
Thank you for that summary much appreciated.
If I'd have gathered my thoughts on the subject and given it due diligence it's the conclusion I would of reached... Thank you once more
The Gospel of Thomas is the inward facing path of mystical Christianity.
Having read,listened to and contemplated it many times it only leads me in that direction.
The knock on effect is a growing lack of interest in cosmology the nature of the World etc
I would argue that the Gospel of Thomas is not a gnostic text, it lacks archons, aeons, sophia, pleroma, notions of reincarnation, the demiurge etc that you find in actual gnostic texts like Judas, apocryphon of John, Phillip, Gospel of Truth etc. Half of the sayings are found in synoptic gospels and many of themes in Thomas are shared between the Gospel of John, John's epistles, Acts, and Paul's epistles. I get that some of the sayings have confusing parabolic language but thats more a lack of scholar research done on the text due to it falling in obscurity until the mid-20th century.
10:36 Very well said.
Boy at 8 10 on video, you nailed me. Show me more please.
Really good man - good breakdown
Good video. Hurts a little to hear, those of us building a Gnostic tower this definitely stings. I definitely get a serotonin buzz when I find a meta text or a lexical clue that unlocks the meaning of a saying. It’s a bit like shopping for God when I’m studying. I like to think I am learning but maybe I am stalling?
Love this thank you
Agree 100% on settling into the faith. Indian parable of digging a water well ❤
One thing to be mindful of is when we say the orthodoxy doesn’t have secret knowledge it’s a bit of a stretch bc then you unload all of the information about Christianity. Christian cosmology, theology, etc. that’s all information that needs to be unfolded in order for the initiate to develop in the faith. That’s just to say that the gnostics had different theology for sure but it’s not absurd it’s right in line with most religions except they were small fleeting sects. It’s like hearing a foreign language and calling it a secret language.
No, the Gnostic Christians weren't "small, fleeting sects..." The "orthodox/catholic" church leaders were afraid of the widespread influence of Gnostic groups, they wrote much concerning the Gnostics (of course with twisted information and slanderous words). Study history from secular sources, you will see that the "orthodox/catholic" church, supported by the Roman empire, persecuted and slaughtered the Gnostics - the Manichaeans, the Bogomills and the Cathars were the Gnostic groups that experienced heavy persecutions from the "orthodox/catholic" church.
the strict dualism only exists in some Gnostic Sects. The belief in dualism isn’t as binary as it comes off. Some gnostics believes that the material isn’t inherently bad but the way it was confounded was due to a misorder and misdirection. Also, as a budding Gnostic, maybe even a Gnostic Christian, I think there’s a lot misleading understanding what gnosis is. it’s not so much about “secrets” and “hidden truths” but it’s more about bring the unseen truth to the light. just like you said, Jesus said. Real gnosis becomes practical and expandable. Most people who talk about gnosticism do not even know the difference between the major sects. Sethian, Valentinianism, madaeism, etc, the list goes on. Christian Gnosticism is so much more than what is understood; not because its so secret because no one can get to it, but because it’s unseen due to a lack of the right attentiveness. some of the most monumental experiences of gnosis doesn’t come from a book, it comes from perception & divine will showing up in your life.
Can you imagine what a potential fundamentalist Gnostic would look like based on the texts? And people think orthodox Christianity is bleak.
Fascinating and glad I watched it loving your videos, as a Christian and believer in Christ as God I find it difficult bat times to follow the gnostic thinking but it should still be studied to help better understand earlier belief and shouldn't just be discounted. Keep up good work bud
From what I can see, those who disagree with Gnosticism, disagree with the Nag Hammadi scriptures. Scriptures found in a cave in the 1940s. The canon gospels have had literal thousands of years of interpretation and saints to permeate culture to where even things we don't expressly view as Christian, have Christian roots.
I've been working through both, and the criticisms of the Nag Hammadi library can easily be applied to the canonical gospels. We've just had more time establishing those as "Truth"
As for Gnostic Belief on the Material world, my favorite explanation is this:
If a sculpture is made of brilliant marble, then once again in clay. The issue is not form, but substrate. The world is flawed, its concept or form is not.
I would disagree with the original language thing the Bible was written in. To many people who miss translated the Bible, it is extremely important for EVERYONE to know the literal translation of the Bible so we know what it says then we can meditate on it and find a deeper understanding of it revealed by the Holy Spirit. Like Universal restoration for example, it wouldn't make sense if we used modern translations because they miss translated ALOT.
The large number of gnostics in the comment section might be the best and most convincing indicator that we actually live in the end times 😂
Really like this one. Made me think about all the other ego-projects I've got cooking. These things seem to crop up wherever people are... go figure. It's back to doing the thing, which can be boring, common, and repetitive. Or is it?
Gnostics weren’t a one people all thinking the same thing. It’s like calling Europeans, whitey, and then proceeding to act as if they are all one people.
where is the painting with the double moon from the thumbnail from (artist? source?)?
it looks nice!
ty!
Excellent video! 👍
Where do I find your Holy Mystic Bible study?
Here's an amazing mystery revealed. "AI generates images of earth using only biblical descriptions."
Beautiful...
I guess we have to be broken down or even crushed to have any true humility, otherwise the ego's defences are too stubborn
I want to add some information to this. I get the point, gnostic and Christian overlap… Waking up lends us to a journey on what happened, so to speak. I found the Essene to be an interesting aspect of the early Christian ideologies. But here’s what really impressed me. The Christian Mystical Way (upper case?) was drowned out by the early dogmatic mechanisms of power differentials. So for the remainder of the world religions, they have their dogmatics and their mystics. But for some reason, Christianity developed into a purely dogmatic religion, with little or no mystery schooling at all. When was the last time you encountered a mystic Pastor? The mystical way is essential to deciphering the dogmatic. And once done, both are discarded. So a question arises - how can it be done that the mystic portion of the Christian path is magnified among practitioners to restore some sort of balance for that sector of society in modern times? We have to stop conflating Christ with personage. Jesus is the person.
How are orthodox Christians really any different than Gnostics? Both groups believe that they’ve discovered the real spiritual truth behind our reality and because of that they are saved. The only difference is what kind of knowledge each group claims leads one to salvation.
Thanks, I appreciate this!!
I agree with these statements. Thanks
John 3:30
Thanks for the video. New to your channel and nice to see so many interested faith seekers out there.
Not quite certain I am sold on your Gnostic take down and limiting of Christian criticism and or lack of cross over (ex. Eckhart admitted to taking a lot of his insights from many non-Christain sources - arguably a top three Christian Mystic).
When you quoted from the Romans(?) and Paul regarding Paul speaking of the Gospel. You obviously do not mean the Synoptic Gospels (as we know well after). The (loosely termed) Gospel of Paul or Gospel of God was where Paul drew heavily on the Old Testament as being proven correct etc. through the coming of Jesus. I would argue that has little if any weight with Christian Mystics (though I may be entirely ignorant on this point). How do you tie this Gospel (?) in to refute Gnosticism. I don't believe Christian Mystics believe that God visited and only visited Jewish Prophets before Jesus and ending with Paul as he himself states. A lot of good arguments can be made that Paul had no shortage of ego as well (in line with what you accuse Gnosticism of).
I would further posit that just because an early Christian deemed the four Gospels as sacrosanct and all others heretical does not exclude the value held within the Gospel of Thomas and Mary and John ....and likely many more we do not know about. If I listen to Eckhart or Teresa of Avilla I find them more in line with Thomas than the Gospel of Paul. "God beyond God"
I'm seeking Christ Consciousness and am not unwilling to look to any religious source to come closer to attaining it (Thomas Merton and Keating also had this view I believe). And Yes though I remain far away from achieving such a state, my faith only increases every day and with that my understanding of life. And of one thing I am certain .....the more I meditate upon God the less I know him/her/source but the more I love him. My intellect and ego are learning to allow room.
Thank you. Agreed.
Typically I only see Catholic (Me) and Orthodox views on mysticism
from the Desert Fathers to Saints/Monks/Theologians [John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Meister Eckhart]
I've always wondered about Protestant theologians on the topic
& their flushing out of Theosis, the Nous, etc
I do like the Kingdom Theology best laid out by RedeemedZoomer
Parallel to Ortho-Cath writings/etc
fair arguments
Jon, I love you, my friend...but this isn't it. As a theologian myself, your understanding of Gnosticism doesn't seem to be well-rounded, and it does seem to have some glaring inaccuracies. I'd be happy to discuss this topic in detail (rather than just throwing an unwarranted wall of text at you), if you're interested. But I would first advise you to read a particular book on the subject - 'Gnosticism: New Light on the Ancient Tradition of Inner Knowing' by Stephan Hoeller. He's a great resource on Gnosticism and a leading expert in this area of knowledge.
I hope you're well and that your new year is starting off on a good foot.
Pax et Bonum, my friend.
1.) The Gospel of Thomas is not gnostic
2.) I think it’s pretty clear what the gnostics believed. Any mentions of Yaldabaoth, or Barbello, or anything of that sort, clearly indicates a gnostic tradition.
3.) I understand what the standard & accepted view is. I’m staunchly against that view.
4.) I appreciate you for trying to be gentle with people.
To be clear, gnosticism seems to indicate that there is another hidden deity, which is the true deity & gnosis of that deity’s existence, will free you from the deception of lesser deities. Once again, in particular, Yaldabaoth.
Brilliant
Gnosticism didn’t necessarily go away outright. It simply evolved into agnostic or atheist materialists who use scientism to unlock hidden knowledge. Both of the words Gnosticism and science both have “knowledge” as their root word
This is grossly inaccurate, my friend.
@ according to who?
@ According to the entire literary body of Gnosticism. Gnosticism is absolutely incompatible with Atheism.
@@JeanDelucre2358 my guy, I never said anything about atheism. The majority of science adherents belong to the new age scientism religion. It’s philosophically a materialistic religion. The foundation of it is gnostic in a sense of unlocking hidden knowledge of the cosmos. The fact someone doesn’t believe in an afterlife doesn’t by default make them an atheist.
No, no, no. Your blatant dismissal and arrogance at around 7:23 was just too much to accept. Have you read any gnostic material? Was it an early Christian writing negatively about gnostic mysticism that you just repeated by saying it's based on egotism and knowing secret knowledge that others don't have. and presumably makes them feel superior? Is that not what you are doing by your blanket denigration of their motive based on ego?
Have you actually read any of the gnostic spiritual and mystical texts? I suggest you read The Unknowable God. It's been a great inspiration to me as a Christian.
🙏🏻
If any one believes they are a practicing gnostic and they have an Ego they will fail and are not true gnostics so you are wrong when you say it is an ego trip.
No sticks.
Interesting and informative video. There is a free book that relates to the video's subject, it is called The Divine Secret of Nothing by Vincent Morales. It is worth checking out.
“Narcissism”⁉️
Gnosticism is a blending of Chistianity with Pagen ideas. It started with both Simon Magus overtly, and Philo of Alexandria subtly.
Philos ideas crept in through Justin Martyr- and catalyzed at the conflict in Nicea.
Clement of Alexandria loved gnosticism. Just his version of it. He was a "mystic".
There was a huge conflicts on what Jesus' Kingdom looked like, one group taught it was literal and the other taught it allegorically. The literal was wiped away by the time of Nicea, along with being able to anathemitize anyone that rocked their boat.
Like Novation, Hypollytus, Arius (who was just repeating what he was taught by Alexander of Alexandria), ect
Isn’t it fair to say that Christianity is a blending of Judaism sects with Greek/Roman religious sects? Like Jesus being “The Word” was pretty clearly taken from Philo
@tookie36 Maybe what developed at Nicea. I consider RC gnostic in many ways. Its set up like a mystery cult.
What if the Church that married Rome was Mystery Babylon instead of the real Bride of Christ. A body of real believers, many whom are forgotten by the world and story untold (for the most part), the victors writing "history" or at least shaping the narrative for years to come.
And Jesus being the Word made flesh is written. The Word being a lot more than words on a page, yet also brought to memory by it.
@tookie36 and Philo was a sadducee, literal related to Herod. They did blend Greek thought, indirect revelation by things that are made.. with Judaism, knowledge via direct Revelation.
The Jews had been corrupting themselves going way back though. Taking in foreign Idols and ways of the people around them. And guess what? God was never happy at them when they did. It was always just a remnant who remained.
It will be like that for Christians, too. Wolves creep in.. false prophets, and those who did not even accept the Apostles (3 John).
@ Look at Satan in Judaism today. He is an angel doing gods will to tempt us so we can freely choose to love god. Many argue that satan as an adversary against god is an influence of Zoroastrianism. It’s very difficult to suggest your understanding of Christianity is from the “true” Judaism that started with Adam, Abraham, or wherever your historical figure comes in depending on your branch of Christianity
@@tookie36 My main comment got deleted.. UA-cam algos really are annoying.
Good Lord this good
This is supercool 😂😂😂
No such thing as "gnosticism". A sloppy term.
Pre nicene christianities was diverse. There is spiritual gold to be found in many places. Don't fall for the cheap mistake of believing slander and rumors by those who couldn’t discern with carefulness and true humility in long gone past.
You seem to know a lot. Care to share your knowledge?
No, I do not know 'a lot'. I think we, all of us, need to help out in these matters and everyone who is sincere have something of value to bring us all. I think we lose way more than we gain if we go about these topics without finely attune ourselves to nuances and multiple depths.
Pre-Nicene Christianity was not diverse. The teachings of Christ & the Apostles was very clear and Gnostic teachings contradicted it from the beginning.
@@MarylandJeetKuneDoJustin Martyr was referring to Philo of Alxandria who created his own Gnosticism that was picked up by people like Clement of Alexandria and Origen. Gnosticism being defined as synchronizing Greek/Pagan ideas with true Christianity.
Clement of Alexanria loved gnosticism. Just his version of it.
@ezrajeremiah8631 Gnosticism is not defined as mixing Greek/Pagan ideas with Christianity.
So, the way I understand it, you're claiming that traditional Christian Mysticism is a well tread path up the mountain, and gnosticism (and by extension agnosticism) is simply a path around the mountain, leading one in circles?
What's interesting is that the God Seed (as Meister Ekhart put it) is in line with the Sufi teaching of the Beloved, and in non-dualistic eastern tradition there is the Brahman. God clearly offers multiple paths to his love because he knows we are all his children.
The only path is Christ. He is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Him.
The Christian path is essentially non dual we are seeking union with god. When we submit to his will and Christ lives in us we partake in his being
You talked about nothing really. Gnosticism says that this world is a deceipt created by a false god. Plain and simple. You've stated this and yet didn't provide any knowledge as to why this statement is false according to your believe. Saying that it is an initiation rite, which is not, and talking about ego, which is found everywhere in the human realm, doesn't prove a thing. I put some consideration into gnosticism because how can such a perfect and good god create such a horrible world?
Also John 18:36
Gnosticism agnois a lot of Gnus. It makes them ngo Wilde.
One thing mysticism taught me is that nothing is new under the sun
L take, once you experience more you’ll see god hasn’t stopped creating yet
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
😂
From what I have read of the gospel of Thomas, it is about direct experience of God. So it is similar to Christian mysticism, I suggest the same.
Who am I to suggest what I suggest, well I have experienced the state of god consciousness, and a knowledge of reality comes with that.
Understand this, knowing is very different from an opinion derived from hearsay.
You’re selling snake oil!