Is Peeker's Advantage worse in CS2 than CS:GO? I did an experiment to show what peekers advantage looks like in Counter-Strike 2 compared to csgo 64tick and csgo 128 tick servers.
As a game developer, I think it's definitely a visual feedback thing, there have already been a lot of issues with the game's models not accurately representing the game state which seem mostly fixed now. Most people who could tell 64 tick apart from 128 tick did so either by the movement or the feedback from animations playing. Not saying there isn't a difference but I feel servers temporarily throttling for with the high player counts is a likely cause.
Big agree, not a developer but ancedotally, through my experience with Valorant this was actually a huge part of. People complained often about the experience of how people looked like they were mid sprint when killing you, peeker's advantage, dying around corners etc. Turns out it was a visual feedback--and once the visiual feedback were fixed to better reflect what was going on, it *felt* better. And that feeling is what people care about the most.
Very nice test, although maybe people saying CS2 'feels wrong' is more of an accumulation of the tracers being off and different movement updates and not just the shooting intervals
@@tyjuji *closer to what hte server sees. i still have some fights where 5 tracers go thru a guy for 0 hits when i and the other guy have 30 ping. at of nov 17ths, after the "tracer" patch
@@un7ucky Same here. I really can't pinpoint it but every single time it feels off compared to CSGO. CS2 Might have better this, and better that, but CSGO still feels way more responsive and actual value to what you're hitting, whereas in CS2 the bullets feel like a gamble to hit.
Love this, thank you WarOwl! Every new video from you is such a special experience, even if it's just a technical video, such as this. Happy holidays, wishing you the very best.
Another test I'd recommend is to simulate packet loss. What happens if you are interacting with some player with 1% to 5% of packet loss and vice versa, this is where goofy things happens. Btw, having at least 1% packet loss is usually a common occurence, could happen due to bad internet connection on either player, server connectivity issues (bad peering, degraded performance due to attacks, whatever)
The worst thing that happens is no defuser sound. Also many bullets just don't spawn with loss over 5%. It's actually fun to play with 40-70% loss because you could just run and gun and enemies doesn't see you.
Packet loss in cs2 is weird, same as whole feel of the servers and ping. I will hold strong opinion that cs servers just simply suck cock. End of story. I have symmetric 600/600 MB net with ping around 2. Center of Europe. Servers are close to my city, I have good router, I'm basically best case scenario. And I constantly have hiccups on netgraph+weird game issues at the same time. It's clearly game servers problem. I have no issues with net in other games including absolutely horrible coded Tarkov.
@@chacka4292 For me it feels like rubber banding with low latency. It's very weird, when another player does have high amounts of packet loss I've noticed it's like you're shooting the wall, by that I mean the bullets goes right past him like he's not even there!
Exactly this. Warowl didn't cover this topic in his video. I would randomly get huge server packet loss along with my friends, and the dsync would just go crazy. Getting peeked without even seeing the other person. If you think CS has terrible packet loss, go play some Rainbow Six Siege to instantly break your monitor lol..
@@thenodecamp Other games are worst indeed, one example that comes to mind with packet loss and "rubber banding" is GTA Online being a p2p netcode results in the most infuriating shooting (and driving!) experience. Another test that can be done is record a player's viewport alongside the server's point of view with both high latency and packet loss. That way we can for sure see how CS2 are now handling packet loss and high latency combined.
Great video, the whole 'interacting with high ping players, makes it seem like you also have high ping' would definitely explain a lot of the things I experience. I wonder how that works when you have a group of players close together with variable ping, I'd guess they'd all just get the de-sync from the player with the highest ping. I also think you're onto something with server quality, one way you could test that is by limiting the cpu and memory capacity of you ec2 instances to try to artificially simulate a server under high load. I think it would also be telling to see the ec2 metrics(memory/cpu usage) over the course of a regular death match, or competitive match. Something with ~10 different players(not bots) running around shooting, and using grenades. Even if the players don't see issues, the metrics could show usage spikes that correlate to specific situations(like lots of grenades going off in a short amount of time).
Love this. Thank you for putting this together. I'd love to see what you think about the rubber banding esp around smokes on CS2. An explanation to the movement around CS2 would be fascinating
Thanks for the nice testing and analysis! Would be nice to see the data (whatever this is ... maybe number of frame delay/advantage vs. ping difference) in a graph for easier comparison, but I do understand this was already a lot of work. Much appreciated also without graphs!
Most of the times when people complain about getting shot behind walls is when they are running behind the wall while the other person is peeking (so both players are in opposite motion) Does that mean that it's effectively double the peekers advantage/delay in those situations?
The delay is always the same. What would happen is a bigger space gap between the two players, so it'd be more noticable. In a way there is more delay, you'd see the other player less, but the time after which you die after getting into cover is the same
In that case it might be even worse. There could be like a "ghosting effect" in the sense that the "unpeeking" player's game never updates in time for the peeker to appear on the screen. This would explain that fl0m clip on Anubis B main
The thing that I observed, but have yet to test, is that the accuracy of the visuals changes depending on the server much more drastically than in csgo, even with consistent ping from both parties. This could be because the game isn't optimized fully yet, like how csgo was. But that "laggy" and delayed movement still persists in some situations.
Thank you for putting this out there! Maybe I have misinterpreted what you are saying in this video but it seems to just boil down to a visual feedback issue that is making people unhappy but already since launch that has been greatly improved and I have no doubt it will continue to. Great video :)
I think this perfectly describes what is going on. I don’t see peekers advantage as being outrageous, but it does feel inconsistent. If it is true that every interaction is as slow or fast as your enemy, then every interaction is going to feel different. I would strongly argue that that’s a very, very bad thing.
@@emromw interestingly-this is metaphorically relevant to much of what is happening today in the world: must we all be made to suffer in the spirit of fairness, or is there such thing as advantages and disadvantages?
@@beau6113 in the real world its a bit different. the concept is similar. the difference is that in the real world, if 80% of the people have advantage, each advantageous person would suffer less in the spirit of fairness compared to if there are 20% of the people who have advantage instead. this gives an incentive for people to make sure everyone is advantageous so there is no need for spirit of fairness. basically if u help others get better you're lowering your burden. this isnt true in CS because every interaction is a 1-on-1. just because the guy has a cheaper net, or by chance live far from the server with many traffic, you who has worked hard to purchase a reliable net has to sacrifice your hard earned advantage to them. however the peekers advantage is minimal in my opinion. it does give clear advantage but it can also be nullified by being off-position, baiting, utilities, flanks etc. there are way other important things to focus in CS than who can shoot first peeking a corner
@@beau6113defo would take the other one... Life is not enjoyable all "equalized", nothing in nature is "averaged"... it's all supposed to be a rollercoaster
I genuinely can't believe you don't have a rotating roster of permanent sponsors already - deserve it so much more than so many sub-par creators. Anyway, here's a comment, like and share to boost your algorithm
Great video, WarOwl! I play on EU servers and there are definitely situations where I either killed somebody a few fractions of a second after I already stopped firing/aiming at them. The same has of course also happened to me, i.e. I died shortly after I got to cover. It definitely doesn't happen too often but I still miss the good old days of LAN. Playing with 1-10 ms ping was absolutely amazing in 1.6 and only after everything started going online did I realize just how good we had it. CS2 now supports custom workshop maps and I was wondering if you could maybe make a video about playing classic 1.6 maps like aim_headshot or fy_iceworld with friends 1v1 in CS2.
Its much worse on eu because every lobby is filled with russians who always have over 100 ping. As he says in the video desync is balanced but they still have higher ping, meaning they technically see us first and have less chance of getting shot because of lag.
honestly for me a CS veteran - playing all the iterations from the 1,2 and 1,3 times - cs2 feels like there is a lot happening behind the scenes - it is almost as if some admin is sitting behind the wall and decides who gets shot every time - sometimes this person needs to go to the loo and then you hit nothing... This is the biggest grief I have - lack of consistency. Mind you I play in Europe and my ping is never higher than 50-60. Removing cheaters for a moment - I get the same sensation while playing with bots sometimes I hit crazy heads while next I shoot a bot 10 times with no register... So wtf is going on there is beyond me. I just know it never happened in previous games. Thanks for confirming this to me :)
@@jmgonzales7701 I do not mind other modes but for me I just want my old friend cs to be there😁 I'm an old tart what can I say. And oh anticheat now that is important 🙂
A good and well made video investigating the topic. I couldn't help but notice the starcraft 2 terran music in the background though. A good choice if i must say so myself!
@@trisfaleel From what he said I believe is lower ping = better? But that isn't the case in my experience. Getting peeked by a lower ping player than me, results in him seeing me first, and I die. Getting peeked by a higher ping player than me, results in him still seeing me first, and then I die. That's the problem for me. Also, he only did these test on an empty server, try it with more people on a server + server load and he would probably get a different outcome.
I'd love to see you bring back matchmaking academy. I played csgo years ago when I was a kid and stopped because I thought I was bad at the game, but Ive always loved the game nonetheless. Now that I'm older and cs2 came out I'm giving it another try and realizing I just didn't know what I was doing as a kid. I've started learning some grenades and feel like I'm starting to get the hang of the strategies for the first time. I'd love to be able to get some feedback from one of the best cs UA-camrs ever. Love your content and can't wait for the next video!
Fantastic testing. I feel like interp/desync has been tackled quite a bit in the November patches, so it would be interesting to know which exact patch these tests are performed on. Maybe it's even possible to compare CS2 from September with a current build and see if there are any tangible differences.
They definitely addressed some issues that affect peeker's advantage. Assuming your analysis is correct, then I think cs2 is more fair, but it could be jarring if you usually have 15ms ping, and suddenly it feels like you have 150ms, simply because someone else on the map has high ping. Very interesting findings, sir!
Realistically, there should never really be a case where you are playing with someone that has 150ms ping. If you are, then they need to work on their matchmaking. I always said in CSGO that they should add a "maximum opponent ping" option to compliment the "maximum dedicated server ping", which would prevent you from being matched with opponents over a certain ping (default 75, like the existing server option).
The thing I've found about this issue is that 15 ping on Faceit servers is much better than 15 ping on mm servers. It likely has something to do with server quality like you said which also explains why your test results seem optimistic compared to what we actually get playing premier for example.
Not for me. In CS2 it felt better playing on Swedish Server, giving me a Ping of 30-40, compared to the 10-15 on German Server. In CsGo it was the other way around.
@9ty1 No, the main issues are all those Russians with their 50-150 Ping. So, closing the gap between me and those Russians gave me better results in gun fights, peeking, etc. On German Servers, so with low ping around 10-20, I just get totally destroyed by those Russians. Dieing behind cover, dieing before I see them, shots not registering properly even if they stand still and so much more stupidity. That never happens when all people are around the same ping and it never happened in CsGo to this unplayable degree. The easiest fix would be giving Russians their own Servers, or just pairing people with around the same ping together and not with those huge differences between players.
i do agree with this and i think this is the core issue. cs2 servers have some issues hence the inconsistency in lags/bugs/shots missing/ shots hitting that shouldnt. Lets give Valve some time and i am confident we will have smooth mm experience like in go :)
That would be amazing. Right now north of Africa, Balkans, Russia countries all play in Frankfurt. But Valve is too pussy to invest in Russia or Turkey where they have amazing capacities to accommodate them. Fat f**k chilling in New Zealand could not care less about CS at this moment.@@shigarumo2263
Dying behind walls is my biggest problem, I notice it happen every match. I don't think it was this bad in GO, there's definitely something real with that because I don't get away with ducking into cover like I did in GO.
Thank you for researching this. I have played about 300 matches in CS2 since the release, and I consistently feel out aimed by players with ping >15 when mine is 40+ . I try not to check ping , but after dying round after round due to super fast reaction times I check and it's always against low ping players. Either it's ping, coincidence (actually good players) or cheaters. 9 out 10 times this happens in Madrid servers (EU).
I never check what servers I'm in but my friend and I also in EU experience the same thing where we're constantly getting insta killed. Losing most matches it took us a long time to get a rating and eventho we lost so many, according to all comparisons of rating to cs:go ranks both my friend and I are several ranks above what we should be. (I was like MGE maybe DMG and my friend DMG, now my rating is 15k and my friend 17.5k or so which according to what I find is LEM and supreme). Also getting matched a lot with groups of 9k rating and they tend to always be outperforming the 15-18k ppl in the game
Thanks Warowl for putting the time and effort on this video. Honesly speaking, the game has already fely vastly different from the first day of launch. Kudos to Vavle, and just hope things will only be better, and surpass CSGO at some point.
I would eagerly anticipate WarOwl's response to this news. It's amusing to witness those loyal to Valve staunchly denying any issues, only to later witness fixes for problems they claimed didn't exist. Philip was among the first to voice those problems didn't exist, and WarOwl adds his voice just to the end be the in the idiot side of the history. It's clear to see that there are issues with peeker's advantage in CS2, and Valve's subsequent efforts to address it speak volumes, far more convincingly than any dismissive rhetoric made by those guys.
This isn't the only issue either. Plenty of times especially with snipers ive noticed that although on my screen i shot my enemy, the server would not register the shot like at all, because the other guy somehow registered to the server faster. Found out immediately after they enabled replays again, on the replay it was like i never even shot my gun.
That's why in cs2 valve initially made it so the animations play only on the next tick, after checking with the other players to see who shot first. Then people complained about the desync issue between animation and mouse clicks, so valve stopped doing the animations on the next tick, instead it's instant pretty much, which in turn causes the issue you speak of, where the firing animation does happen on your screen as you click the mouse button, but since on the next tick the game founds out that the other player shot first, your shot is dismissed. It's a trade off either way, no matter the tick rate, so the players chose instant animations instead of removing the case where you shoot the enemy and still die.
This is the reality of multiplayer gaming. It's physically impossible to have a perfect solution because there's unavoidable delays. So yes, the other guy _did_ simply shoot first, you just didn't know about it yet.
The whole dying behind walls thing was really bad initially with CS2 for me, for some reason even against players with the same ping as me, I'd still have crazy teleporty deaths. It feels like it's been fixed now though, so either it was a server issue, or something to do with subtick or animations. Either way, thankfully it doesn't happen to me anymore.
I've had some crazy ones recently like seeing an enemy get 2 shots off on my teammates before he even appears on thier screen. Just absolutely insane. I feel like there's something going on beyond this test.
@@TheAlexBradley just because it has the word "feel" 2 sentences later doesn't mean they're "seeing feelings" "I saw that guy an hour ago and he's still behind us. I feel like he's following us." "Uhm, you can't see feelings so you're wrong"
@@TheAlexBradley the phrase "you can't see feelings" is for when people say "I feel like I saw ____" not for the words "see" and "feel" being in the same paragraph.
The real problem is that if you are holding an angle, you have to shoot a mooving target on your screen while the peeker has already stopped and aimed at you standing still. Its more of an interpolation problem than subtick
Yeah, but video proves that it was pretty much the same in csgo. (And in basically any multiplayer fps game, but peekers advantage becomes more noticeable in low ttk games like cs, r6, or valorant)
WAROWL RESPECTFULLY AS A FAN I LOVE U. ONE DAY I WILL HOPEFULLY SEE U AT A LAN AND INTRODUCE MYSELF AND ILL TELL YOU HOW IVE LOVED UR VIDS FOR YEARS. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK (all caps over lol)
When the beta test was going it really didn't feel that bad, the bhop and general movement felt a lot clunkier but the gunplay was amazing IMO, now that it's been out for a bit it's kinda swapped, I like the movement more than I did in the beta but my sprays just feel off for some reason, maybe I'm just getting bad but it feels like the same sprays I did in GO don't work at all in CS2
i was in wave 2 of the beta and holding with a scout into someone peaking didnt feel like garbage. once the game "launched" the servers got stressed and its felt terrible
@@un7ucky I can't wrap my head around the current situation with animations and desync and everything I gave up on sniping when it released I feel you man I can rarely hit the same quick little shots through a crack or a tight angle, they gotta pretty much be standing still
it's probably the tracers bro. In CSGO there was only 1 tracer for every 3rd shot in a spray. Now in CS2 there is a tracer for every single bullet. Most people don't even really notice them but they have a huge visual subconscious effect on how you aim. In CSGO people were more just memorizing where the bullets go, rather than having visual feedback for every single shot. Now that we see each shot, it sorta tricks your brain into rethinking your spray patterns. You're seeing what you always knew was there beneath the veil, and it disturbs your mind to be confronted with hidden realities.
@@muscleman125I've been playing with the follow recoil setting turned on for this reason. It took a while to get used to it but I actually quite like it now.
@@muscleman125 Maybe, I definitely liked the visual bounce GO had, it helped me learn the recoil patterns, I haven’t paid much close attention to see if the bounce is the same but yeah I have noticed the increase in tracers,
Maybe Valve should consider putting a ping limit on premier. Or making it stricter if they have one. Something in the range of 100-150 to prevent the more extreme scenarios.
You can set the max accepted matchmaking ping in your settings. I have it set to the lowest possible (25). But this may just be for *your* connection to the server, not everyone elses
This analysis was really needed for those who want to learn more In-depth when it comes to the shooting mechanics in CS2. It's a complex topic I'd say.
Exactly the type of content the CS community needs, especially right now when the game is still being patched up to the best state it can be in as fast as possible rather than just managing and maintaining it. No doubt this should both help Valve and help the community understand what's actually happening, though I have more faith in Valve than the CS community
I think this test is great, but it feels like something is wrong. I have a countless number of recordings so far of me clearly shooting a player and it just not registering. Whether it be the hitboxes not lining up correctly with the character models all the time or something else idk. The game overall feels great and looks great but there is definitely an issue and I trust the warowl will find it.
I'm wondering if the weirdest inconsistencies I've seen are due to the other player having packet loss at exactly the worst moments. I've had all my projectiles whiff straight through opponents a couple times, and each time we've both had low ping with maybe 1ms ping difference between us at most. It's pretty uncommon but it's happened to me a few times under those conditions.
yay warowl vid. Regarding the death behind corners, i dont recall experiencing this in GO, however, when CS2 first came out i noticed it PLENTY. Is it possible the fade to black thing might be obfuscating it? Maybe. But it was really REALLY bad when CS2 first launched. I would say its not nearly as bad. The game is going more and more to the right direction which is nice, and its starting to feel more like GO which is good. However the thing about leading is dumb. I hope thats not intentional and if it is that should be removed.
Wasnt leading a thing in csgo too? I am fairly new to cs but I have hit many shots in csgo wherein I was either lagging behind the enemy or leading them and it still refistered, or was it the 64 tick server? I am not trying to make a point, i am a new player and am just asking a question
@@kdawgmaster you did experience it, but when you died csgo immediately transported your view to where the server understood you were, which was obviously not behind a wall, and also did the fade to black which gave you less time to react. One of the last changes CS2 added was precisely mimicking csgo in the transporting your camera thing, because up until now CS2 left your camera where you last were on your client instead of the server, and that made soooooo many people realize that lag is a thing in online gaming and complain about it, when in reality we've all been experiencing kind of the same thing as in csgo, just without the game "sugar-coating" our deaths.
Would the "rate" value have something to do with this? Since it's pretty high set by default unlike 1,5 M in CS:GO. Would adjusting it have an issue with peeking? Also, the fade to black effect is due to headshot in CS:GO. The screen gets darker sooner when you die by a headshot than to a body shot.
Hey Warowl, just wanted to drop by and express my admiration for your recent content. I've noticed your dedication to delivering quality material, and it hasn't gone unnoticed. Your evolution as a UA-camr is clear, and I appreciate the effort you put into each video. I've been following your journey and remember the challenges you've faced with UA-cam flow. Despite that, your recent work has been top-notch. Have you considered revisiting some of your classic content with the release of CS2? It might be a nostalgic trip for long-time viewers and a fantastic way to celebrate the game's evolution. Additionally, with the remake of Counter-Strike, there's a growing community of new players eager to learn. Your educational content could be a game-changer for them (pun intended). Exploring beginner-friendly guides might tap into this new wave of players seeking guidance. Whatever direction you take, know that your effort is genuinely appreciated. Looking forward to more awesome content from you. Best wishes for your future endeavors!
This was a great video! Been a while since I'm detached from counter-strike as I took the way you didn't take, and I continued as a computer scientist so now I am a busy CTO xP Anyway, the green shirt goes super well with your green eyes! Nice haircut too. Great to see you look great and still have no closure!
I've definitely had a handful of moments where I was killed completely around a corner (no wallbang icon in killfeed), but in general the game feels pretty responsive. The more I play it the less different it feels from CSGO. I think the new graphic changes were just throwing people off. I'm pretty sure the new tracers with every bullet have something to do with it feeling weird at first. I'm also pretty sure the updates have made a lot of subtle improvements.
The simplest way to put this, is not that the desync would be bad, but the velocity of the player who challenges you. There lies the true problem why you cant hold something while someone gets to peek. Your starting velocity feels sluggish and your actual speed when in movement, that feels fast (for the enemy who is aiming). That gives you the peekers advantage, not the inetcode itself. Althought it adds up to it. You cannot hold (w) while someone else a/d's you, you dont have time to react to it the same way that you did in csgo. --- Professional perspective.
I think server quality plays a huge factor too. You are basically running the game in the literal best case server scenario with a dedicated amazon server with what I would assume is more than ample resources. Can you tune the amazon server resources down into the "valve cost cutting" range and see what the results are too? (would probably need more players connected too for loading) Back when the servers were slammed (the time they disabled demos too) the dying behind walls thing and the peekers advantage was miles worse than now. We saw huge quarter second or more delays to some of those deaths and it was instantly noticable even to spectator views. Nowadays its not nearly as bad but some games a little is noticable, others not really.
There is one huge problem with the CS2 implementation: The way you describe the ping difference means that it's actually in favor to the high-ping guy. Why? Because of consistency. When you are on a low ping, Your "ping experience" will vary greatly based on who you are fighting against. Naturally, we do not have the option to select opponents, nor the insight who we are really fighting against (most of the time). That means, each encounter will end up in a dice role and it's impossible for you to adapt. Meanwhile, the high-ping guy has always a high ping, and unless he fights against someone with an even higher ping (oh god forbid), his expierence will be mostly the same. This means, he can get used to the delays, adapts how it works and is more readily acceptable of the circumstances. Yes, on paper this isn't a real gameplay advantage to neither of the parties, but it does change how you perceive the game, at the very least. And this, in my opinion, is sometimes even more important than raw data. Also, as the guy that is always 80ms russians and turks (among all the other bullshit you have to get used to when "playing" with them), this is definitely a noticeable issue. I just wish, CSGO would actually implement regional servers, so we can stick to german assholes we can at least UNDERSTAND when they insult our mothers. EDIT: I also have LEGIT moments of getting shot by a guy I KNOW was coming around the corner, but wasn't even able to see at all. It's not even an outlier. Happened to me a couple of times, and dead teammates that are specating me haven't been able to see them either. Sadly, I haven't recorded those clips, but even IF they were visible somehow, it would still be realistically impossible to react to those situations. Though at the very least, they are very rare. But they do exist nontheless.
My number one thing is with the movement more than the peeking itself. I swear the amount of times someone has killed me while they're still full sprinting on my screen is substantially worse than in GO. There was always issues with how counterstrafing came over the netcode but it feels worse in 2 and it gives the illusion that you're constantly getting screaming running one-tapped which stinks. Additionally the server quality could be a massive issue as well, but also increased delay you mentioned in regards to peeking on fights in which both parties are peeking / unpeeking repeatedly. My reaction time is about 140ms so the new CS2 100ms thing that you mentioned is noticeable and I'd like if that were reverted to how it was in GO, since I can at least control my own ping being low and if I don't that's my fault.
It's obvious there is a peeker's advantage issue. Every pro team switched their style to reflect this. Everyone noticed. This test doesn't reflect atual gameplay scenarios. It isolated some important conditions to investigate the issue, but ended failing to find the cause of the issue. That's fine. Good effort. Doesn't mean there isn't an issue.
yes, CS:GO had a problem with sided peeker's advantage, CS2 did not. I didn't think it was important enough for the vid because it was sooooo small it honestly doesn't matter.
In CS2, no matter the ping, the guy that gets shot first dies. So even if "I was behind cover thats bullshit", you should have never been alive to run behind cover, you were already dead. It's not that he killed you when you were behind the wall, it's that you refused to die, ran behind the wall, and then the referee (server) came and yanked your ass back. If you think of it like this, it doesn't feel as bad as "omg he shot around the corner".
i feel like you dont even need CS anymore. i will probably never touch CS again, but i still like watching your technology topics. would love to see you have r6 examples and stuff from other games in the future. i dont think current subs would be mad that you show other games, and i feel like it might bring in new audience if its not just a CS focus, would love to see a gradual change to more general gaming and not just CS from you. idk all the games you play tho so it might be tough to feature stuff you dont know that well.
Part of why CS2 feels laggy is the fact that the visuals still only update on the tick, however the update is whatever happened before that tick and so it's not updating what's currently happening, but what already happened. This is why AWP shots feel off, it's sending the bullet where you're aiming when you clicked and not where you were aiming when the gun actually fires, unlike CSGO.
ty warowl for testing peeker's advantage at low ping. i've seen low ping players against low ping players blame sub-tick and CS2 without knowing what they're talking about.
thanks, finally a correct analysis of the problem. and no, it's not just "bothering", it's outrageous. So imagine the shitty situation in Europe, where we always have at least two players, who have 80+ ping on the server, since Valve enabled players to set min. ping req, it's even worse, having 100+ players on almost all matches. I'm not sure if this is testable, but I experienced this countless times, so that the overall ping differences somehow affects the whole server, so the peeker's advantage also gets worse between two players with the same ping. Also at the weekend (after so many updates), the same experience still on, so that out of 15+ matches, every 2nd-3rd match at least from one side (mostly ct), you are unable to kill anybody with anything shooting whole magazines into the enemy from a meter, still survives with 2-3 hits or seemingly 1-taps you because of server latency half of your hits are not registered... after side change, from the other side, even running / offshoots are insta-head. But when on CT sided maps, you change at 10:2 with 3 kills, no way you can win the match even if the CS luck comes to your side in the means of peeker's advantage. Thus suddenly the whole game is unjust and you totally trashed your time, because it's impossible to win with any tactic.
Finally someone made a video on it, I have been hearing so many people complain about peaker's advantage when I didn't notice a real difference at all.
1:38 Ooh the Yorktown, excellent museum. Charleston is a good time too. Just be sure to watch out for the corner peaking downtown, it gets pretty dicy this time of year.
As a game developer, I think it's definitely a visual feedback thing, there have already been a lot of issues with the game's models not accurately representing the game state which seem mostly fixed now. Most people who could tell 64 tick apart from 128 tick did so either by the movement or the feedback from animations playing. Not saying there isn't a difference but I feel servers temporarily throttling for with the high player counts is a likely cause.
I think you're right
Big agree, not a developer but ancedotally, through my experience with Valorant this was actually a huge part of. People complained often about the experience of how people looked like they were mid sprint when killing you, peeker's advantage, dying around corners etc. Turns out it was a visual feedback--and once the visiual feedback were fixed to better reflect what was going on, it *felt* better. And that feeling is what people care about the most.
That and possibly vacnet
what game are you developing?
Official Stamp of the OWL
Only WarOwl could put this amount of effort into a 7 min video with no sponsor. Good stuff
enter optimum tech
for love of the game
Money isn't only driving factor in modern day youtube
Tell that to react content creators. @@tappajaav
@@kanontf2didn't notice that. No ads/sponsor in his vids. 😯
Very nice test, although maybe people saying CS2 'feels wrong' is more of an accumulation of the tracers being off and different movement updates and not just the shooting intervals
Tracers were off in csgo as well, they're actually more accurate in cs2 than they were in csgo. The more you know
this is what I think as well
They changed it recently. Tracers are the same as what the server sees now, which it was not in CSGO.
@@tyjuji *closer to what hte server sees. i still have some fights where 5 tracers go thru a guy for 0 hits when i and the other guy have 30 ping. at of nov 17ths, after the "tracer" patch
@@un7ucky Same here. I really can't pinpoint it but every single time it feels off compared to CSGO. CS2 Might have better this, and better that, but CSGO still feels way more responsive and actual value to what you're hitting, whereas in CS2 the bullets feel like a gamble to hit.
Love this, thank you WarOwl! Every new video from you is such a special experience, even if it's just a technical video, such as this. Happy holidays, wishing you the very best.
Another test I'd recommend is to simulate packet loss. What happens if you are interacting with some player with 1% to 5% of packet loss and vice versa, this is where goofy things happens. Btw, having at least 1% packet loss is usually a common occurence, could happen due to bad internet connection on either player, server connectivity issues (bad peering, degraded performance due to attacks, whatever)
The worst thing that happens is no defuser sound. Also many bullets just don't spawn with loss over 5%. It's actually fun to play with 40-70% loss because you could just run and gun and enemies doesn't see you.
Packet loss in cs2 is weird, same as whole feel of the servers and ping. I will hold strong opinion that cs servers just simply suck cock. End of story. I have symmetric 600/600 MB net with ping around 2. Center of Europe. Servers are close to my city, I have good router, I'm basically best case scenario. And I constantly have hiccups on netgraph+weird game issues at the same time. It's clearly game servers problem. I have no issues with net in other games including absolutely horrible coded Tarkov.
@@chacka4292 For me it feels like rubber banding with low latency. It's very weird, when another player does have high amounts of packet loss I've noticed it's like you're shooting the wall, by that I mean the bullets goes right past him like he's not even there!
Exactly this. Warowl didn't cover this topic in his video. I would randomly get huge server packet loss along with my friends, and the dsync would just go crazy. Getting peeked without even seeing the other person. If you think CS has terrible packet loss, go play some Rainbow Six Siege to instantly break your monitor lol..
@@thenodecamp Other games are worst indeed, one example that comes to mind with packet loss and "rubber banding" is GTA Online being a p2p netcode results in the most infuriating shooting (and driving!) experience.
Another test that can be done is record a player's viewport alongside the server's point of view with both high latency and packet loss. That way we can for sure see how CS2 are now handling packet loss and high latency combined.
Great video, the whole 'interacting with high ping players, makes it seem like you also have high ping' would definitely explain a lot of the things I experience. I wonder how that works when you have a group of players close together with variable ping, I'd guess they'd all just get the de-sync from the player with the highest ping.
I also think you're onto something with server quality, one way you could test that is by limiting the cpu and memory capacity of you ec2 instances to try to artificially simulate a server under high load. I think it would also be telling to see the ec2 metrics(memory/cpu usage) over the course of a regular death match, or competitive match. Something with ~10 different players(not bots) running around shooting, and using grenades. Even if the players don't see issues, the metrics could show usage spikes that correlate to specific situations(like lots of grenades going off in a short amount of time).
Love this. Thank you for putting this together.
I'd love to see what you think about the rubber banding esp around smokes on CS2.
An explanation to the movement around CS2 would be fascinating
Thanks for the nice testing and analysis! Would be nice to see the data (whatever this is ... maybe number of frame delay/advantage vs. ping difference) in a graph for easier comparison, but I do understand this was already a lot of work. Much appreciated also without graphs!
Most of the times when people complain about getting shot behind walls is when they are running behind the wall while the other person is peeking (so both players are in opposite motion) Does that mean that it's effectively double the peekers advantage/delay in those situations?
The delay is always the same. What would happen is a bigger space gap between the two players, so it'd be more noticable. In a way there is more delay, you'd see the other player less, but the time after which you die after getting into cover is the same
It is more like the "unpeeker's disadvantage"
In that case it might be even worse. There could be like a "ghosting effect" in the sense that the "unpeeking" player's game never updates in time for the peeker to appear on the screen. This would explain that fl0m clip on Anubis B main
peeking
@@karmasourceHe actually did mean peaking, like you did in high school.
The thing that I observed, but have yet to test, is that the accuracy of the visuals changes depending on the server much more drastically than in csgo, even with consistent ping from both parties. This could be because the game isn't optimized fully yet, like how csgo was. But that "laggy" and delayed movement still persists in some situations.
That is about what it is. CANT GET USED TO LIVING WITHOUT LIVING WITHOUT LIVING WITHOUT CCCCCSSSSSGOOOOOOOO I DONT WANNA PLAY THIS WAA AAAAAAY
Thank you for the consistency and still, having no closer!
Thank you for putting this out there! Maybe I have misinterpreted what you are saying in this video but it seems to just boil down to a visual feedback issue that is making people unhappy but already since launch that has been greatly improved and I have no doubt it will continue to. Great video :)
I think this perfectly describes what is going on. I don’t see peekers advantage as being outrageous, but it does feel inconsistent. If it is true that every interaction is as slow or fast as your enemy, then every interaction is going to feel different. I would strongly argue that that’s a very, very bad thing.
But at the same time, advantages due to ping difference within any 1 on 1 don’t exist. And that sounds fair.
@@emromw interestingly-this is metaphorically relevant to much of what is happening today in the world: must we all be made to suffer in the spirit of fairness, or is there such thing as advantages and disadvantages?
what is bro cooking @@beau6113
@@beau6113 in the real world its a bit different. the concept is similar. the difference is that in the real world, if 80% of the people have advantage, each advantageous person would suffer less in the spirit of fairness compared to if there are 20% of the people who have advantage instead. this gives an incentive for people to make sure everyone is advantageous so there is no need for spirit of fairness. basically if u help others get better you're lowering your burden.
this isnt true in CS because every interaction is a 1-on-1. just because the guy has a cheaper net, or by chance live far from the server with many traffic, you who has worked hard to purchase a reliable net has to sacrifice your hard earned advantage to them. however the peekers advantage is minimal in my opinion. it does give clear advantage but it can also be nullified by being off-position, baiting, utilities, flanks etc. there are way other important things to focus in CS than who can shoot first peeking a corner
@@beau6113defo would take the other one...
Life is not enjoyable all "equalized", nothing in nature is "averaged"... it's all supposed to be a rollercoaster
Cool vid, I've been waiting to play cs2 till the community is more aware of what the new gameplay is like, I appreciate the investigations you do
been waiting for someone to put this effort in. ty
wow, awesome video and research. also, i wanted to say thanks warowl, you inspired me to start my own cs channel. keep up the great work!
I genuinely can't believe you don't have a rotating roster of permanent sponsors already - deserve it so much more than so many sub-par creators. Anyway, here's a comment, like and share to boost your algorithm
Ya know it's a good day when warowl uploads
Exactly what I thought.
Hell yea
get a life son
@@ALLSTARDECOURO2Nah you get life
I just want to congratulate you for creating that thumbnail and title, thing POPPED in when I booted up youtube
I've been following you since the begining of your channel and you're still awesome
Great video, WarOwl! I play on EU servers and there are definitely situations where I either killed somebody a few fractions of a second after I already stopped firing/aiming at them. The same has of course also happened to me, i.e. I died shortly after I got to cover. It definitely doesn't happen too often but I still miss the good old days of LAN. Playing with 1-10 ms ping was absolutely amazing in 1.6 and only after everything started going online did I realize just how good we had it.
CS2 now supports custom workshop maps and I was wondering if you could maybe make a video about playing classic 1.6 maps like aim_headshot or fy_iceworld with friends 1v1 in CS2.
Currently custom maps are only for local play, at least it doesn't work like it was in GO with players in lobby, it says that it can't connect.
@@vadnegru You need to get a server
Its much worse on eu because every lobby is filled with russians who always have over 100 ping. As he says in the video desync is balanced but they still have higher ping, meaning they technically see us first and have less chance of getting shot because of lag.
honestly for me a CS veteran - playing all the iterations from the 1,2 and 1,3 times - cs2 feels like there is a lot happening behind the scenes - it is almost as if some admin is sitting behind the wall and decides who gets shot every time - sometimes this person needs to go to the loo and then you hit nothing... This is the biggest grief I have - lack of consistency. Mind you I play in Europe and my ping is never higher than 50-60. Removing cheaters for a moment - I get the same sensation while playing with bots sometimes I hit crazy heads while next I shoot a bot 10 times with no register... So wtf is going on there is beyond me. I just know it never happened in previous games. Thanks for confirming this to me :)
Do you think cs needs an innovasion? Like a new game mode
@@jmgonzales7701 I do not mind other modes but for me I just want my old friend cs to be there😁 I'm an old tart what can I say. And oh anticheat now that is important 🙂
@@ememm2472 add in iron sights
A good and well made video investigating the topic. I couldn't help but notice the starcraft 2 terran music in the background though. A good choice if i must say so myself!
Thanks for putting in all this work Mr. WarOwl
I feel like the Peeker's Advantage was more of an issue during the beginning of CS2 compared to now. That and the animations were very off.
hitboxes are still off when you are moving, so its really hard to say
idk I'm still having issues with dying before I can even see the guy. I'm on low ping btw, and yet I still see the other guy way more delayed.
BIG time. It's been improves a lot since launch.
@@FemtoTheFoxwatch the video lol it addresses what you just said
@@trisfaleel From what he said I believe is lower ping = better? But that isn't the case in my experience.
Getting peeked by a lower ping player than me, results in him seeing me first, and I die.
Getting peeked by a higher ping player than me, results in him still seeing me first, and then I die.
That's the problem for me.
Also, he only did these test on an empty server, try it with more people on a server + server load and he would probably get a different outcome.
REST IN PIECE MJ PEEK 2023-2023
I still see it sometimes. And it's full swing on CSTV (yes, i watch tier 10 CS)
no sponsor for so much work. u deserve my like and subscribe
I'd love to see you bring back matchmaking academy. I played csgo years ago when I was a kid and stopped because I thought I was bad at the game, but Ive always loved the game nonetheless. Now that I'm older and cs2 came out I'm giving it another try and realizing I just didn't know what I was doing as a kid. I've started learning some grenades and feel like I'm starting to get the hang of the strategies for the first time. I'd love to be able to get some feedback from one of the best cs UA-camrs ever. Love your content and can't wait for the next video!
Fantastic testing. I feel like interp/desync has been tackled quite a bit in the November patches, so it would be interesting to know which exact patch these tests are performed on. Maybe it's even possible to compare CS2 from September with a current build and see if there are any tangible differences.
Man, you're one of the few reasons left why I can still find enjoyment in this game. Love your content, it stays good.
I was waiting for someone to do 1:50. I would've done it myself if I had PCs.
Fantastic video, as always.
This is an awesome technical project and I'm barely 2 minutes into the video. Nice work
They definitely addressed some issues that affect peeker's advantage. Assuming your analysis is correct, then I think cs2 is more fair, but it could be jarring if you usually have 15ms ping, and suddenly it feels like you have 150ms, simply because someone else on the map has high ping. Very interesting findings, sir!
This is a bit how it was in CoD afaik… One high ping player impacted everyone on the server as it tried to compensate for them.
Realistically, there should never really be a case where you are playing with someone that has 150ms ping. If you are, then they need to work on their matchmaking. I always said in CSGO that they should add a "maximum opponent ping" option to compliment the "maximum dedicated server ping", which would prevent you from being matched with opponents over a certain ping (default 75, like the existing server option).
Thank you. Finally some actually data based comparison to show the differences. Speculations serves no one.
turns out this was just speculation and no real data found
These type of videos are the reason we have been subbed to you for eternity 😂
I SUBSCRIBED THANK YOU FOR GOING ALL IN ON THIS
The thing I've found about this issue is that 15 ping on Faceit servers is much better than 15 ping on mm servers. It likely has something to do with server quality like you said which also explains why your test results seem optimistic compared to what we actually get playing premier for example.
Not for me. In CS2 it felt better playing on Swedish Server, giving me a Ping of 30-40, compared to the 10-15 on German Server.
In CsGo it was the other way around.
@@shigarumo2263 It could have to do with player loading on servers. I play NA servers so this is my experience on those.
@9ty1 No, the main issues are all those Russians with their 50-150 Ping. So, closing the gap between me and those Russians gave me better results in gun fights, peeking, etc.
On German Servers, so with low ping around 10-20, I just get totally destroyed by those Russians.
Dieing behind cover, dieing before I see them, shots not registering properly even if they stand still and so much more stupidity. That never happens when all people are around the same ping and it never happened in CsGo to this unplayable degree.
The easiest fix would be giving Russians their own Servers, or just pairing people with around the same ping together and not with those huge differences between players.
i do agree with this and i think this is the core issue. cs2 servers have some issues hence the inconsistency in lags/bugs/shots missing/ shots hitting that shouldnt. Lets give Valve some time and i am confident we will have smooth mm experience like in go :)
That would be amazing. Right now north of Africa, Balkans, Russia countries all play in Frankfurt. But Valve is too pussy to invest in Russia or Turkey where they have amazing capacities to accommodate them. Fat f**k chilling in New Zealand could not care less about CS at this moment.@@shigarumo2263
Dying behind walls is my biggest problem, I notice it happen every match. I don't think it was this bad in GO, there's definitely something real with that because I don't get away with ducking into cover like I did in GO.
Because VAC doesn't find ANY common cheats at the moment.
This is a great video. Thanks for the hard work and expense you put into making this. Valve should pay you!
Great investigation warowl. Good stuff, youre super dedicated!
Thank you for researching this. I have played about 300 matches in CS2 since the release, and I consistently feel out aimed by players with ping >15 when mine is 40+ . I try not to check ping , but after dying round after round due to super fast reaction times I check and it's always against low ping players. Either it's ping, coincidence (actually good players) or cheaters. 9 out 10 times this happens in Madrid servers (EU).
I never check what servers I'm in but my friend and I also in EU experience the same thing where we're constantly getting insta killed. Losing most matches it took us a long time to get a rating and eventho we lost so many, according to all comparisons of rating to cs:go ranks both my friend and I are several ranks above what we should be. (I was like MGE maybe DMG and my friend DMG, now my rating is 15k and my friend 17.5k or so which according to what I find is LEM and supreme).
Also getting matched a lot with groups of 9k rating and they tend to always be outperforming the 15-18k ppl in the game
it would be interesting to see whether valve have improved that weird quirk where the guy with the better CS ability tends to always win gunfights
Thanks Warowl for putting the time and effort on this video. Honesly speaking, the game has already fely vastly different from the first day of launch. Kudos to Vavle, and just hope things will only be better, and surpass CSGO at some point.
6:40 "I think many of the complaints about [CS2] are completely overblown." 🙌
I knew it
It really isn’t, all the complaints are justified lol
Crazy that valve just fixed a bunch of things that don’t even exist according to this super accurate and well tested video
I would eagerly anticipate WarOwl's response to this news. It's amusing to witness those loyal to Valve staunchly denying any issues, only to later witness fixes for problems they claimed didn't exist. Philip was among the first to voice those problems didn't exist, and WarOwl adds his voice just to the end be the in the idiot side of the history. It's clear to see that there are issues with peeker's advantage in CS2, and Valve's subsequent efforts to address it speak volumes, far more convincingly than any dismissive rhetoric made by those guys.
Met you in a deathmatch yesterday, thanks for being so cool. Hope to see you in Premiere some day!
This isn't the only issue either. Plenty of times especially with snipers ive noticed that although on my screen i shot my enemy, the server would not register the shot like at all, because the other guy somehow registered to the server faster. Found out immediately after they enabled replays again, on the replay it was like i never even shot my gun.
That's why in cs2 valve initially made it so the animations play only on the next tick, after checking with the other players to see who shot first.
Then people complained about the desync issue between animation and mouse clicks, so valve stopped doing the animations on the next tick, instead it's instant pretty much, which in turn causes the issue you speak of, where the firing animation does happen on your screen as you click the mouse button, but since on the next tick the game founds out that the other player shot first, your shot is dismissed.
It's a trade off either way, no matter the tick rate, so the players chose instant animations instead of removing the case where you shoot the enemy and still die.
The issue your describing also happened on csgo it isn't just a CS2 issue.
This is the reality of multiplayer gaming. It's physically impossible to have a perfect solution because there's unavoidable delays. So yes, the other guy _did_ simply shoot first, you just didn't know about it yet.
ghost bullets, new thing in cs2.
The whole dying behind walls thing was really bad initially with CS2 for me, for some reason even against players with the same ping as me, I'd still have crazy teleporty deaths. It feels like it's been fixed now though, so either it was a server issue, or something to do with subtick or animations. Either way, thankfully it doesn't happen to me anymore.
I still get the invisible hand of God death unfortunately. I may try some lambs blood over my monitor and see if the angel of death skips me.
Was waiting for such a video for a while now and warowl makes a video about it, couldnt be happier
Waiter? Waiter! More uploads please.
Happy holidays 😊
I've had some crazy ones recently like seeing an enemy get 2 shots off on my teammates before he even appears on thier screen. Just absolutely insane. I feel like there's something going on beyond this test.
you cant see feelings!
@@TheAlexBradley"I saw this happen"
"You can't see feelings"
?
@@DeathClawz “I feel like there’s something going on”
@@TheAlexBradley just because it has the word "feel" 2 sentences later doesn't mean they're "seeing feelings"
"I saw that guy an hour ago and he's still behind us. I feel like he's following us."
"Uhm, you can't see feelings so you're wrong"
@@TheAlexBradley the phrase "you can't see feelings" is for when people say "I feel like I saw ____" not for the words "see" and "feel" being in the same paragraph.
The real problem is that if you are holding an angle, you have to shoot a mooving target on your screen while the peeker has already stopped and aimed at you standing still. Its more of an interpolation problem than subtick
Right on the money. And there isn't much we can do.
Yeah, but video proves that it was pretty much the same in csgo. (And in basically any multiplayer fps game, but peekers advantage becomes more noticeable in low ttk games like cs, r6, or valorant)
@@damagicfoxnot really. In csgo if you had low ping you'd have a better chance against someone wide swinging with 100+ ping.
What's ttk?@@damagicfox
@@counterstrike2isdead”time to kill” would be my guess ^^
WAROWL RESPECTFULLY AS A FAN I LOVE U. ONE DAY I WILL HOPEFULLY SEE U AT A LAN AND INTRODUCE MYSELF AND ILL TELL YOU HOW IVE LOVED UR VIDS FOR YEARS. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK (all caps over lol)
I love that perspective vid you made on csgo years ago
When the beta test was going it really didn't feel that bad, the bhop and general movement felt a lot clunkier but the gunplay was amazing IMO, now that it's been out for a bit it's kinda swapped, I like the movement more than I did in the beta but my sprays just feel off for some reason, maybe I'm just getting bad but it feels like the same sprays I did in GO don't work at all in CS2
i was in wave 2 of the beta and holding with a scout into someone peaking didnt feel like garbage. once the game "launched" the servers got stressed and its felt terrible
@@un7ucky I can't wrap my head around the current situation with animations and desync and everything I gave up on sniping when it released I feel you man I can rarely hit the same quick little shots through a crack or a tight angle, they gotta pretty much be standing still
it's probably the tracers bro. In CSGO there was only 1 tracer for every 3rd shot in a spray. Now in CS2 there is a tracer for every single bullet. Most people don't even really notice them but they have a huge visual subconscious effect on how you aim. In CSGO people were more just memorizing where the bullets go, rather than having visual feedback for every single shot. Now that we see each shot, it sorta tricks your brain into rethinking your spray patterns.
You're seeing what you always knew was there beneath the veil, and it disturbs your mind to be confronted with hidden realities.
@@muscleman125I've been playing with the follow recoil setting turned on for this reason. It took a while to get used to it but I actually quite like it now.
@@muscleman125 Maybe, I definitely liked the visual bounce GO had, it helped me learn the recoil patterns, I haven’t paid much close attention to see if the bounce is the same but yeah I have noticed the increase in tracers,
Maybe Valve should consider putting a ping limit on premier. Or making it stricter if they have one. Something in the range of 100-150 to prevent the more extreme scenarios.
You can set the max accepted matchmaking ping in your settings. I have it set to the lowest possible (25). But this may just be for *your* connection to the server, not everyone elses
Or region lock countries so that Russians, EU, SA, NA, China and Oce players can't matchmake with each other.
@@TLAngus1337 That's exactly it. I set it to 50 and my ping is always 50 or less but there can still be a 200 ping guy in the server as well.
wtf, instead of fixing the underlying issue (an issue csgo currently doesn't have) just put a band aid on it?
@@skoop1987 High ping sucks in csgo too. it sucks in every game lol
This analysis was really needed for those who want to learn more In-depth when it comes to the shooting mechanics in CS2. It's a complex topic I'd say.
You did so much work, nice man
Exactly the type of content the CS community needs, especially right now when the game is still being patched up to the best state it can be in as fast as possible rather than just managing and maintaining it. No doubt this should both help Valve and help the community understand what's actually happening, though I have more faith in Valve than the CS community
I think this test is great, but it feels like something is wrong.
I have a countless number of recordings so far of me clearly shooting a player and it just not registering.
Whether it be the hitboxes not lining up correctly with the character models all the time or something else idk.
The game overall feels great and looks great but there is definitely an issue and I trust the warowl will find it.
it may be that thing that happens after 200 ping, when I was testing it would come on randomly and I have no idea why.
I'm wondering if the weirdest inconsistencies I've seen are due to the other player having packet loss at exactly the worst moments. I've had all my projectiles whiff straight through opponents a couple times, and each time we've both had low ping with maybe 1ms ping difference between us at most. It's pretty uncommon but it's happened to me a few times under those conditions.
Love to see that Kyle Mason keep uploading new cs videos to us on youtube besides from his amazing movie career...
Great video brother 👍🏻
And please upload more 😅
yay warowl vid. Regarding the death behind corners, i dont recall experiencing this in GO, however, when CS2 first came out i noticed it PLENTY. Is it possible the fade to black thing might be obfuscating it? Maybe. But it was really REALLY bad when CS2 first launched. I would say its not nearly as bad. The game is going more and more to the right direction which is nice, and its starting to feel more like GO which is good. However the thing about leading is dumb. I hope thats not intentional and if it is that should be removed.
Wasnt leading a thing in csgo too? I am fairly new to cs but I have hit many shots in csgo wherein I was either lagging behind the enemy or leading them and it still refistered, or was it the 64 tick server? I am not trying to make a point, i am a new player and am just asking a question
@@logc1921 i dont remember ever experiencing it.
@@kdawgmaster you did experience it, but when you died csgo immediately transported your view to where the server understood you were, which was obviously not behind a wall, and also did the fade to black which gave you less time to react. One of the last changes CS2 added was precisely mimicking csgo in the transporting your camera thing, because up until now CS2 left your camera where you last were on your client instead of the server, and that made soooooo many people realize that lag is a thing in online gaming and complain about it, when in reality we've all been experiencing kind of the same thing as in csgo, just without the game "sugar-coating" our deaths.
Would the "rate" value have something to do with this? Since it's pretty high set by default unlike 1,5 M in CS:GO. Would adjusting it have an issue with peeking?
Also, the fade to black effect is due to headshot in CS:GO. The screen gets darker sooner when you die by a headshot than to a body shot.
Hey Warowl, just wanted to drop by and express my admiration for your recent content. I've noticed your dedication to delivering quality material, and it hasn't gone unnoticed. Your evolution as a UA-camr is clear, and I appreciate the effort you put into each video.
I've been following your journey and remember the challenges you've faced with UA-cam flow. Despite that, your recent work has been top-notch. Have you considered revisiting some of your classic content with the release of CS2? It might be a nostalgic trip for long-time viewers and a fantastic way to celebrate the game's evolution.
Additionally, with the remake of Counter-Strike, there's a growing community of new players eager to learn. Your educational content could be a game-changer for them (pun intended). Exploring beginner-friendly guides might tap into this new wave of players seeking guidance.
Whatever direction you take, know that your effort is genuinely appreciated. Looking forward to more awesome content from you. Best wishes for your future endeavors!
This was a great video! Been a while since I'm detached from counter-strike as I took the way you didn't take, and I continued as a computer scientist so now I am a busy CTO xP
Anyway, the green shirt goes super well with your green eyes! Nice haircut too. Great to see you look great and still have no closure!
I've definitely had a handful of moments where I was killed completely around a corner (no wallbang icon in killfeed), but in general the game feels pretty responsive. The more I play it the less different it feels from CSGO. I think the new graphic changes were just throwing people off. I'm pretty sure the new tracers with every bullet have something to do with it feeling weird at first. I'm also pretty sure the updates have made a lot of subtle improvements.
The simplest way to put this, is not that the desync would be bad, but the velocity of the player who challenges you. There lies the true problem why you cant hold something while someone gets to peek. Your starting velocity feels sluggish and your actual speed when in movement, that feels fast (for the enemy who is aiming). That gives you the peekers advantage, not the inetcode itself. Althought it adds up to it. You cannot hold (w) while someone else a/d's you, you dont have time to react to it the same way that you did in csgo. --- Professional perspective.
Mewhahahaha! - That's the funniest peek face I ever saw! - (I'm guessing that WarOwl did the editing.. Good job! - Maybe I'll watch the video too!)
No one can every put so much effort for a video. Kudos!
The one thing I hate about CS2 is the packet loss. It's the only game I lag in. Sometimes it gets so bad that I can't even switch weapons properly.
I've had like 4 games where I'm running with my knife out and pull out a gun but the game doesn't let me for like 10 seconds and we lose bc of it
THat's your ISP I don't think it's counterstrike
@@richmusick4881 "only game" for me it works fine in Valorant
I think server quality plays a huge factor too. You are basically running the game in the literal best case server scenario with a dedicated amazon server with what I would assume is more than ample resources. Can you tune the amazon server resources down into the "valve cost cutting" range and see what the results are too? (would probably need more players connected too for loading) Back when the servers were slammed (the time they disabled demos too) the dying behind walls thing and the peekers advantage was miles worse than now. We saw huge quarter second or more delays to some of those deaths and it was instantly noticable even to spectator views. Nowadays its not nearly as bad but some games a little is noticable, others not really.
This is pretty bold ngl, the debate is gonna be fun to see.
Excellent video warowl!
Suggestion… just don’t hold angles expecting a free kill. Jiggle hold corners
There is one huge problem with the CS2 implementation:
The way you describe the ping difference means that it's actually in favor to the high-ping guy. Why? Because of consistency.
When you are on a low ping, Your "ping experience" will vary greatly based on who you are fighting against. Naturally, we do not have the option to select opponents, nor the insight who we are really fighting against (most of the time). That means, each encounter will end up in a dice role and it's impossible for you to adapt.
Meanwhile, the high-ping guy has always a high ping, and unless he fights against someone with an even higher ping (oh god forbid), his expierence will be mostly the same. This means, he can get used to the delays, adapts how it works and is more readily acceptable of the circumstances.
Yes, on paper this isn't a real gameplay advantage to neither of the parties, but it does change how you perceive the game, at the very least. And this, in my opinion, is sometimes even more important than raw data.
Also, as the guy that is always 80ms russians and turks (among all the other bullshit you have to get used to when "playing" with them), this is definitely a noticeable issue. I just wish, CSGO would actually implement regional servers, so we can stick to german assholes we can at least UNDERSTAND when they insult our mothers.
EDIT:
I also have LEGIT moments of getting shot by a guy I KNOW was coming around the corner, but wasn't even able to see at all. It's not even an outlier. Happened to me a couple of times, and dead teammates that are specating me haven't been able to see them either. Sadly, I haven't recorded those clips, but even IF they were visible somehow, it would still be realistically impossible to react to those situations.
Though at the very least, they are very rare. But they do exist nontheless.
My number one thing is with the movement more than the peeking itself. I swear the amount of times someone has killed me while they're still full sprinting on my screen is substantially worse than in GO. There was always issues with how counterstrafing came over the netcode but it feels worse in 2 and it gives the illusion that you're constantly getting screaming running one-tapped which stinks.
Additionally the server quality could be a massive issue as well, but also increased delay you mentioned in regards to peeking on fights in which both parties are peeking / unpeeking repeatedly. My reaction time is about 140ms so the new CS2 100ms thing that you mentioned is noticeable and I'd like if that were reverted to how it was in GO, since I can at least control my own ping being low and if I don't that's my fault.
Another nice informative interesting video from our mentor of cs 😌💐🙏
It's obvious there is a peeker's advantage issue. Every pro team switched their style to reflect this. Everyone noticed.
This test doesn't reflect atual gameplay scenarios. It isolated some important conditions to investigate the issue, but ended failing to find the cause of the issue. That's fine. Good effort. Doesn't mean there isn't an issue.
I hope all the crybabies on Reddit watch this
There's more crybabies in the youtube comment section than reddit so far. By far.
Thank you for making this video!!
I was waiting for this
Did you test right eye and left eye peeks for both low and high ping? Or did you do right eye for 1 and left eye for the other?
yes, CS:GO had a problem with sided peeker's advantage, CS2 did not. I didn't think it was important enough for the vid because it was sooooo small it honestly doesn't matter.
@@TheWarOwl but for a side by side comparison it would be more 1 to 1
In CS2, no matter the ping, the guy that gets shot first dies. So even if "I was behind cover thats bullshit", you should have never been alive to run behind cover, you were already dead. It's not that he killed you when you were behind the wall, it's that you refused to die, ran behind the wall, and then the referee (server) came and yanked your ass back.
If you think of it like this, it doesn't feel as bad as "omg he shot around the corner".
i feel like you dont even need CS anymore. i will probably never touch CS again, but i still like watching your technology topics. would love to see you have r6 examples and stuff from other games in the future. i dont think current subs would be mad that you show other games, and i feel like it might bring in new audience if its not just a CS focus, would love to see a gradual change to more general gaming and not just CS from you. idk all the games you play tho so it might be tough to feature stuff you dont know that well.
Great video WarOwl!
Please re-do test results!
Part of why CS2 feels laggy is the fact that the visuals still only update on the tick, however the update is whatever happened before that tick and so it's not updating what's currently happening, but what already happened. This is why AWP shots feel off, it's sending the bullet where you're aiming when you clicked and not where you were aiming when the gun actually fires, unlike CSGO.
They changed that a few updates ago. Tracers & the firing animation always plays on the next frame after you shoot, not on the next tick anymore.
ty warowl for testing peeker's advantage at low ping. i've seen low ping players against low ping players blame sub-tick and CS2 without knowing what they're talking about.
Might've taken two weeks but I gotta say it was a well written video!
This test was so stupid. Obviously there was a peeker's advantage issue. Today's update proves it.
We all know it's an issue, but this shows just how bad it is
5:48, well now I can't ignore your haircut. Looks really nice, Mr. Owl.
Thanks for making this video!
i wonder how much does it takes to get these amazing punchlines 👏 apsolute masterpiece
thanks, finally a correct analysis of the problem. and no, it's not just "bothering", it's outrageous. So imagine the shitty situation in Europe, where we always have at least two players, who have 80+ ping on the server, since Valve enabled players to set min. ping req, it's even worse, having 100+ players on almost all matches.
I'm not sure if this is testable, but I experienced this countless times, so that the overall ping differences somehow affects the whole server, so the peeker's advantage also gets worse between two players with the same ping. Also at the weekend (after so many updates), the same experience still on, so that out of 15+ matches, every 2nd-3rd match at least from one side (mostly ct), you are unable to kill anybody with anything shooting whole magazines into the enemy from a meter, still survives with 2-3 hits or seemingly 1-taps you because of server latency half of your hits are not registered... after side change, from the other side, even running / offshoots are insta-head. But when on CT sided maps, you change at 10:2 with 3 kills, no way you can win the match even if the CS luck comes to your side in the means of peeker's advantage. Thus suddenly the whole game is unjust and you totally trashed your time, because it's impossible to win with any tactic.
Got that smooth Terran 02 in the back there 👌👌
It's exactly what you said in the end, server quality in matchmaking is subpar. Playing on faceit my experience significantly improved.
The demo map for this really gives you different perspectives on the problem
Finally someone made a video on it, I have been hearing so many people complain about peaker's advantage when I didn't notice a real difference at all.
1:38 Ooh the Yorktown, excellent museum. Charleston is a good time too. Just be sure to watch out for the corner peaking downtown, it gets pretty dicy this time of year.