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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
- Tom Vasel, Zee Garcia, and Sam Healey take a second look at SeaFall, the newest installment in the Legacy family of games!
WARNING: SPOILERS START AT 16:00
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"I wish I could fast forward through the next couple games." OUCH. Life's too short to play bad games and invest a lot of time (and money) to me. I love Zee's comment: I bought some cubes, I sold some cubes and I maybe I read a little about some natives and I put a sticker on the board.
Zee's hilarious talking about those islands
I agree with Zee to some degree but I'm 100% with Tom and the Breaking Bad analogy - even though some parts were boring I definitely don't regret watching the whole series.
Same here - with legacy (in my opinion) it is not a question of "are you having 100% fun right now" but whether you want to play more and / or regret that you have played the games you had played.
So my question to you (Tom especially) is: do you >want< to play more or do you feel more >obliged< as a reviewer (similarly I would ask about regretting the past game but I believe you'd rather answer this after playing most or all of the campaign).
I'm kinda with Zee that it's a bummer you have to "hope" it turns into something amazing.
That sounds like bad design. You shouldn't have to wait that long for the "hook".
I'm actually totally with Zee. Some people out there give too many chances, and with board games there are so many it shouldn't take 8 hours to get to something exciting ha
"Hugh Kares" Lol. So funny. So far it seems not getting this has been a good thing.
wait until you get to the part with the frog men with laser pistols.
Insta BGG #1 for me!
awww maaaen..
As someone who never has 3-5 players to play with, I would love to see actual game play video of the game rather than just updated impressions.
I could see Zee's comment about cubes, flavor text, and stickers on the board being on the box for the next printing.
Ha, ha! I have never seen you guys so somber!
Zee's arguments are 100% valid; 2-3 games at around 4-6 hours is a lot to sit through, disappointed, before a game starts to pick up pace. In fact, just judging from these first 2 reviews, I don't even care if the rest of the game is amazing... I've already lost interest in Seafall. My time is precious and there are just too many exceptionally great games that I'd rather, and should be, playing.
zee is right--and I wish he'd said more than "you lose those 2 hrs." i wish hed said this: Watching a movie or show is an inherently diff experience, more passive, often singular, with the ability to payse, switch on or off at any time.
playing a game like this is inherently social, involves other ppl and a complex time investment and inherently matters more for most ppl each time. not everyone has 100% idyllic free time for board games...and zee is right to recognize this. it is not mechanical to think about if the experience is worth your time generally speaking, even if you give it a chance. 2 hrs in BG time, honestly, is more like 4-6 hours in tv time. it's like dog years! i think the sense of time lost and of frustration is very palpable when you come out of a bad movie or series of episodes you were hoping to be good. and that's what is happening here.
I have definitely played a game of fury of dracula, which I love, that went horribly wrong and still was the same length as a long feature length film. and those 2 and a half, 3 hrs were uniquely excruciating in a way only a social game can be.
keep fighting the good fight zee.
Wait a second , Tom says he did 2 Milestones in 1 Turn when you can only complete 1 a turn.
We ignored the rule about the leader's that Zee mentions and went with the assumption that the ones to do the thing to were the unp[icked ones and continued with what we originally picked.
This is fascinating to watch. Love this review series. So many passionate feelings.
Even if you do not want the spoilers. You should watch this again when you have played the game. The spoiler part was hilarious.
It would be interesting to get Jason's perspective on it!
They are playing not with Jason.
Who is the 4th player?
Who is Jason?
+Doma Agape Dereck I believe, the it man.
No. It'll be Dark Moon all over again.
I'm really on board with the idea of a Legacy Euro game, but you are really making it sound like this game is a dredge and not even fun to play to begin with. Is there any chance you could go semi-indepth into how the game actually works? What's the goal, what kind of actions were available on the first game, how does it flow, etc.
Thanks for being clear on when spoilers start. Keep doing the good work.
This sounds like the sort of game that our group plays once, I fall in love with, and then we never play again. :(
Wow! Only Tom is not total disappointed so far. Are the special interesting bits part of a hook to get you to start a quest? Hope it all sorts itself out.
Watching this video is like looking into a window of a house and realizing I don't want to go there.
So now the guys are at @8 hours of total play time and STILL no "wow" moment yet. Ugh. There's no chance my group would go for that, even if there does turn out to be a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It would be interesting to know if the guys would be willing to continue playing if they didn't feel obliged to review the entire game. It seems like at least Zee would have bailed by now.
I'm glad I didn't pre-order this puppy. This is not my cup of tea at all.
Odd that they mention that it is a game about buying/selling (ie moving cubes) as that is not something that has happened a lot in our 6 games (unless 6 cubes were needed to do a 'thing') I think this is a lot of what is making their games less enjoyable ... they seem to be playing it as just a shipping game.
I'm curious how everyone defines "legacy" in regards to games. They seem to define legacy as changing from play to play. If that's all it takes, modular expansions are legacy, so long as you add one each play. Descent would be legacy if you build your own map. I have always defined "legacy" in games as making permanent, irreversible changes (I'm not counting printing copies of cards, etc.) to the game through the game rules/mechanisms. Whether those changes happen each round of play isn't central to my definition, but make the most sense from a game play perspective.
Interesting take on legacy in regards to being different from other players' experiences. I haven't thought about whether the end result must be different from what other players did to be legacy. Obviously, you mean in a meaningful way. While I think that is better, I think I'm okay with calling a game legacy that is significantly different at the end than the beginning through irreversible changes, such as Pandemic Legacy. That said, I think player choices leading to different changes would be a better legacy implementation. They have mentioned stickers and component removal, so I think there have been irreversible changes in SeaFall, they just don't sound very satisfying so far.
I haven't played the game and have no particular interest in buying it any time soon (since I still have Pandemic Legacy on my backlog), so I have no dog in this fight either way. But one thought that occurred to me is that the goal of this game could be much different than Pandemic or Risk Legacy. One complaint that people had with those games is that once you've played it, you're basically done. If you want to play it again, you have to buy a new box. One solution that I could envision, to that problem, is creating a game that becomes a sandbox game, and the "story" really just helps to explain the changes that occur to the rules, so that you can develop up everything you need to know to have that sandbox experience play out properly, and the plotline just explains how you got from a dull trading world to a wide open, magical, free-form world. Once the arc of the game is complete, you're left with a bigger, more open game than you could usually dump on a table, and maybe more content that can still continue to add surprises for years to come. Maybe you don't get the same movie-like experience as previous Legacy games, but when you're done with the story, you still have a game you can continue to play - and one that usually you wouldn't want to play because it's too big to teach.
Note that I have no reason to think that this is the case, but certainly it is possible that SeaFall is a different animal with a different purpose than the previous games. And, for some groups, that purpose may be more fitting to what they want.
Since you all seem to be dreading the next few slog games of this, have you considered jumping ahead and giving yourselves what you need to open the next box?
No way I would ever get this to the table a second time. I have yet to get even Alchemy back to the table.
Looks like this ship has sailed...
( ∙_∙) ( ∙_∙)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) YEEEEAAAHHH
Interesting, I'm worried since it's so slow it won't hit my table often enough if I buy it :(
Interesting that they don't seem to decide whether "legacy" means it's different every time as it evolves, or if it means there are multiple paths.
Zee, I think this is called "a shaggy dog story", maybe. Thanks for shooting from the hip. I am curious and will check back in...
There are two things different between Risk/Pandemic Legacy and Seafall Legacy:
1. Risk and Pandemic are established games where you didn't need to read the rules first
2. Seafall is a Euro game
I think both of these things mean that the learning of the game is going to be necessarily slower. The question then is, can this combination (original AND Euro) be used for a legacy game? Or is it simply too much regardless of the game itself?
This game sounds like a review of final fantasy 13 I once read: "After 20 hours, the game gets really good."
... That's NOT a good thing. You can't expect your audience to trade away 20 hours of their lives for nothing, that's just insulting.
It sounds like the thing that Zee is so mad about is basically a deliberate lesson for the players about what "legacy" games entail. I think Risk Legacy had something similar.
I thought Smallville was like that. I heard great things about Smallville so I rented a few episodes. I slogged through them and gave up. But then I heard the show was winning awards, so I got some more episodes and finally reached a point where I loved the show.
But here is the thing, I gave up RPG's and got into board games to get the fun in less time. Sure I have more patience than Zee with long games, but still do I want to play a legacy game where the first 6 hours are meh?
Board games are supposed to be, for me, short term investments. Looks like this isn't. Now I won't play Pandemic Legacy because the theme grosses me out. But if it hadn't I wouldn't mind investing the time, because those series of games panned out fun more often and sooner.
The difference is that once you got into it you had multiple seasons of smallville to look forward to. This is over after 15 plays. If half of it just plain sucks it's a pretty bad investment.
Not to mention the fact that you can just passively watch an episode of Smallville and while not being mindblowingly entertaining you can easily sit through it, maybe text a little on your phone or slowly surf the internet. You don't necessarily have to be there 100%. If you're doing this at a boardgame table you become the asshole who constantly doesn't realize that it's his turn and have to ask what the others were doing during there turn to keep up.
Do you think your dissatisfaction with the pacing relates back to experiences with and expectations set by the other Legacy games? Do you think the slow pace would be as noticeable or as discouraging if this was your first Legacy game?
Sam & Zee look like they're waiting to see the dentist.
I'm a bit concerned because I pre-ordered this based on the "Legacy" aspect, would you guys call this a "heavy euro", because usually Heavy Euros I stay away from, I'm also a bit concerned on your talking about the story being slow. I hope there is a big payout, I really loved Pandemic Legacy.\
With the pickup and deliver aspect I was thinking this might be "Black Fleet Legacy", I did violate the "try before you buy" on this one.
I hope come October , we'll get a chance to play and enjoy the game. Sam's tastes and mine usually are pretty close together, so the previous video he had higher opinions than he does now, I hope this turns out to be a good investment.
The problem I have with this game, right now, is that the only way to find out if it's worth it is watching all the spoilers. That, and the thing about being a eurogame... Not sure I want to play that for 15 games
Thanks for the review, guys! (Sounds painful, tho!)
i want to play it..but i could never get my group to play such a game.
Exactly what I suspected before. People mad when they lose, Sam overly frustrated because he worked harder for less points. While he was warmest on hte game after he won the first time. A regular game I would say "That's your fault for working twice as hard for something worth less points"
Competitive legacy games exacerbate this issue x100 over regular games, since every time you lose it sticks with you for the entire campaign.
It's more than that my dude. it's a game mechanics question. well designed games can be hard, or even brutally difficult, but build you up or throw you a sense of what the challenges are to come. something that doesn't is known, in VG hacks and subcommunities from mario fame, as a kaizo game, a la IWBTG. if sea fall advertised itself as such and someone complained about a difficulty curve, then they'd be off the mark. but if in a game such as this for the sheer novelty of saying "didn't expect that did you" they have you rising a familiar game mechanic and then dnatch it away from you, that's not good or hard drsign: that's lazy. the proper way to do it, again as any mario fan would note, is to have you confront and even fail at a similar scenario early on so that it would truly be your fault for not realising that there was this amt of chaos in the game. it could even plant the seed once very subtly early on and smart players would pick up. this s&m, designer is god and rejoices in the squirming of others mentality is so tired and honestly the ppl who defend it don't surprise me bc they would definitely make bad game designers too. challenge is an art, like in Go, ghosts and goblins, quake 3 etc. losing at dice, bubsy 3d, or daikatana shouldn't make you feel bad bc they're just random, uninspired games.
o also fuck all that dumb ass pseudo historical but oops I never read a single book about colonialism in my god damn life scenario bullshit. come on now, there is no excuse for that kind of storytelling in 2k16.
Holy wall of illegible text.
Odds of Zombies turning up? 😊
Sounds like Merchants and Marauders could have easily been turned into a "Legacy" game.
This probably the first time that the dice tower has saved me money, rather than tempting me to spend it.
Strike 2 for Plaid Hat maybe?????..
what was strike 1?
What was strike 1?
+Michael Hastriter dungeon run
Mr. Bistro's game was a flop?
Say it ain't so. I still want to try it someday.
tail feathers
The spice must flow!
totally on board with Zee. a game should not have a free pass only based on legacy in the name!
Just want to say that Zee seemed a little meh about Pandemic Legacy until April rolled around. So maybe, things will turn around for him. But I'm guessing the long time play is getting to him, and if the legacy aspect doesn't start kicking into high gear soon, nothing may be able to save it for him. I believe April was Game 6 (or 5?) for them. Not sure Zee can hold out that long for them with this game.
I agree, but his complaint there was that it was basic Pandemic, nothing was that different. He likes Pandemic though. Here, he doesn't seem to like the game.
I know this is for 3-5 players, but, without giving anything away, could you play this with 2 players?
Definitively not! We are 4 games in and it requires some player interaction and move stealing which are not possible with just 2 players. And as opposed to Pandemic Legacy, you cannot play 2 characters each to ramp it up to 4 players on the board.
Very much so! Rob Daviau stated that it will be less cutthroat (with an abundance of resources and thus not much competition). However, it is very much playable.
What I don't understand in their discussion. They complain it's not enough Legacy and also the rules change too fast and they don't stopping learning the game.
Are these things not more or less the same. I never played a legacy game but was looking forward to this one.
Do I miss a point?
I don't want to put words in their mouths. But what I got from that was previous Legacy games introduce new elements in a more systematic way. Namely at the start of the next game/scenario. Those new elements get integrated and then players play the game with these elements. Seafall seems to be a constant stream of new elements that require constant referral to the rules or integration of new elements throughout a single game. That was my takeaway.
The impression I got is that they unlocked new rules (in some cases in very unpractical ways) but not enough things that drove the narrative and the theme forward, or forced them to approach the mechanics with a new perspective.
Just things like "You could do actions x and y, now you get to do z too". Without any significant alteration to the way the game is played.
I got that as well. But also the sense that the new info wasn't simply integrated in a single fashion as in Pandemic: Legacy. But rather required constant reference and implementation throughout a game. But who knows? Either way, not a good endorsement!
Yeah, both videos so far seem to show that the game definitely didn't live up to the massive hype for it.
18:12 Yeah, it's a super bad feeling when an asymmetric game doesn't let you play with the character you like and/or identify with.
(****MAYBE A BIT SPOILERY****) I personally would have quit right there. I love games with special characters for each player and I usually have a strong favourite among the characters. If a game told me to do to my one favourite character what they mentioned happened I'd just stand up and say fuck you. ESPECIALLY with a legacy game where you can't just pick you favourite the next time this game hits the table. I mean seriously, what kind of fucked up idea is that. This just ensures that everyone is AT LEAST a tiny bit bummed out right from the start of the first game. Horrible idea, plain and simple.
Luckly, I don't feel the same way, I'm really enjoying the experience right now
Right on with you 👌
The spice must flow. :)
I want to like this... but you guys might be saving me a few bucks here. I love the Legacy idea, but out of the box, from reading the rules, etc., it just doesn't grab me.
+1: I had this on my wish list, and was itching to get a copy. I even really like the theme (or thought I did). I'm glad for this video. I think I just dodged a bullet and saved myself a bit of cash.
Yes, they all look very somber.
The way i think about it, and by the sounds of it, Tom, Sam & Zee would agree is that - each game should be enjoyable as a whole entity. Separate out the potential legacy events that could happen when they eventuate, Seafall should be enjoyable to play on its own, regardless of whether you play just one game of it, or play through the entire campaign.
As it stands right now, this game seems to have failed in that aspect.
Hmm ... it seems that Seafall is turning into a kinda "big" disappointment.
I don't know if the big expectation is a part of the problem with Seafall. "Seafall will be way better than Pandemic Legacy etc ..."
I still remember this words and the started hype from that on.
I'm still excited what you guys will think about Seafall after your next games.
Give Sam Healey the hat LoL 😄 😄PLEASE and do this episode over again! PLEASE! LoL 😄 😄😄
Really liked the breaking bad comparision Tom
Could Seafall be falling into this slump because it is an ORIGINAL legacy game? Was Pandemic Legacy and Risk Legacy popular because people were already fans of the original games and they knew the story? Maybe the formula for legacy success is IP.
The key difference there would address the complaint about always learning rules too: previous legacy games were well known games, the legacy parts were easy to incorporate because the base game play was by rote. Here, the game itself is unfamiliar and legacy changes are piled on top. Maybe it's not so much as the legacy games were popular due to the ip, but they worked better due to familiarity.
I don't think so, It sounds more like Seafall just sucks
+toddhunter123 For no reason? Not sure that makes sense. I'm guessing there's a reason it sucks, which is what the original post - and my follow up - was attempting to identify.
1:30 -
Dear Sam,
The word is "conversing", not conversating.
I don't think that's relevant at this point lmao
Tom: "I just wish I could fast forward through the next couple of games."
Just say the game isn't good Tom. Are you under contract to not completely bomb this game? You're coming down on this game hard.... with a sack of feathers.
Still no comparison to Merchants and Marauders, why? Aren't they both epic pirate games? What is this game like other than a Euro pick up and deliver? Is it pickup and deliver like Black Fleet? Both Seafall impressions videos are somewhat disappointing in that they don't describe specific mechanics, player turn, etc.
I would have not even bothered either way. I don't like the concept of Legacy where you really can't re-play the game if you enjoyed it. The idea of Pandemic Legacy and tearing cards up or putting stickers on the board to completely change the board entirely doesn't bode well to me. If there was another way to do it then maybe. I'm curious if those that played Pandemic legacy, would play or have played it again. Would it play out completely differently? That would make a great game if you could change it with totally messing up the board or tearing cards up. Just use erasable ink or remove the card from the game maybe?Either way Once the Legacy aspect was mentioned, I wasn't interested. I wanted to know what others thought of it now I know.
It would play quite differently a second time as you would know what was coming, so could optimise around it. A third play would mostly be similar to the second.
Yikes.... I missed the warning for spoilers because I skipped ahead in the video... you spoiled it!!!!!!
Just kidding..... haha... I loved the spoiler warning. Bring on more spoilers!
sorry guys but I don't understand your point. as I understand from your review...
the mechanisms are good, the game is solid, it's a heavy, deep and involving euro game.
the issue is that the narration is slow?
why should be fast?
great narration should ne slow....take for example great movies about that time period, A passage to India, queimada, the four feathers, mission are
good movies, but are them fast (and furious)? no....
sometimes waiting it's necessary to give the tone of the game.
sail around and do stuff...loved it...buy more wood sell it do it again...LOL
Slow burn hopefully?
4 two hour games and it's still burning slowly, that's asking for quite an investment before you get to the good stuff. That's like DC Universe slow build. 😄
+Cthulwho? DC Universe will never get there, seemingly.
Funnily enough, both DCU and Seafall have fallen in love with desaturation.
I feel that even if it gets amazing, it might be too late. I won't be able to make my group sit to 3 or 4 games that aren't great. Hell, that is 8 hours.
Tom has a point with the breaking bad stuff, but 8 hours is almost an entire season for some shows!
Most problematic is the fact that this is a legacy game. If this was just some uber complex game that takes a couple of plays before everyone knows what he's doing and the flow isn't constantly interrupted by rule checking then that's fine. You'll have years of good gaming ahead. But with this game you won't be playing it again after 15 plays. If it takes 8 or even just 4 or 5 plays for this game to become decent than there is still a huge junk of the whole gaming experience that's just garbage and it seems like this game just isn't worth it.
11 minutes in and this is already painful to watch. I've never seen three experienced reviewers have so much difficulty talking about a game. I cringed each time a question was posed and there was silence as Sam and Zee looked to the other two to take the lead. I'm sure some people will really enjoy this game's pacing and tone. But this does not bode well for the overall reception of this game.
I was really excited about SeaFall. This video is a BIG downer.
Sorry to say, but I'm glad I cancelled my preorder. I was really looking forward to this game, too, but it's gotten too many iffy impressions/reviews to ignore.
Im not gonna play 8+ hours of game expecting it to become great...
I think I'm gonna pass on this one. Great review as always.
This is really sounding like a big warning AWAY from this game.
"It's a legacy game that is more like a complicated Euro that they don't want to teach you all at once." - OUCH!
"Just because a movie's 4 hours long doesn't mean the first hour is allowed to suck!"
Preach on, Brother Zee!
Based on this and other reviews, looks like it's going the way of Yawndemic Legacy... Unless a group invites me to try it, I'll probably pass on it.
I don't think it's legitimate to compare a game that you need to learn the complex rules and focus on it for hours each game with a TV show that you can watch lying on a couch.
"Muck", but hopeful for better. Wow.
I haven't seen so much silent, somber, shocked disappointment in a hyped product since The Phantom Menace.
If the game is bad, and every review I've seen says it's bad, then stop playing it. There's too many great games out there to waste another 20 hours pulling SeaFall all of the way apart. I think the 8 hours you've already sacrificed is plenty.
So much disappointment surrounding a game with so much potential. I'm truly hoping that the next couple of reviews come back with bigger hope and enjoyment of the game. That said, 4 games in and a mediocre rating? I'm starting to worry that I wasted my money on the pre-order. -mM
You guys should have watched this review before playing the game. Then you would have known it might not be worth playing...
this sounds like you are playing an ongoing tutorial with now and then some scripted stuff happening with the same outcome all the time. So story-wise and components-wise they totally dropped the ball on this one. Let's hope for better uses of the legacy mode in the near future as the story should be elemental with legacy games as you are not supposed to to change a bad story into a fabulous one in your own mind! Just say it now! This game sucks as a legacy game and might interest others as an euro...that's all
If the game sucks, don't be hopeful... just say it sucks (which you pretty much did with your body language and bush beating). The fact that you guys (and most of GENCON) were so excited to play Seafall and annointed it the most anticipated game of the whole convention, has forced you to hold back a bit. It's almost like you're afraid to offend someone... and it just seems to me that the majority of this year's releases have been disappointing to say the least. Is it possible that "hype" within the hobby has grown into an ugly twisted monster ready to lobby for mediocre games which empty our pockets and wastes our valuable playing time?.
not sure how many ppl have this game... Here in europe there is no sign of it
There is here in England...we'll still in Europe for the moment. 😊
It'll be released on Dec 30th in Germany.
Unless it comes out that this is not a colonial times and your are sailing in the simulation of the ocean and islands and are just programs in some aliens TV program or.. or.. well something really blowing your mind and turning the game on its head.. which so far doesn't seem likely..
18:10 - Yup, never playing this game ever.
Yeah, we just didn't rip them up.
just based on they way you guys talk about story arc makes me feel like this is a huge miss... Good stories have acts. Big Grand opening, Some downtime, Big middle experience, slow down again, huge finale... Think about God of War, Captain America Civil War, Star Trek, Star Wars, Any major story.... The heroes journey... This game seems to totally miss how to tell a story... Hope it gets better but I'm with Zee... Needs to hook you from the start. Then it can slow down a bit...
This did have a big opening WTHeck moment at the end of the first act...and in doing so really annoyed Zee. 😄
Yikes...xD
wow everyone seems really bored even doing the video, doesn't say much already
How are they bored? They are obviously not very impressed with the game so far, but they are definitely engaged in reviewing it. Wouldn't say "bored"...
Looks the hype was way too much for this one.
I've have no intention of ever playing this game, so I have no vested interest in this game. That said, I don't understand, how can you 3 criticize a game for including a Lovecraftian theme when you bought into Pandemic Legacy which was clearly a telegraphed zombie "surprise" which may be the only theme more obnoxiously overused than Lovecraft?
Ummm...because I don't really like Lovecraftian themes. That's it, really.
(Non-spoiler disclaimer: I have not played the game, so this has nothing to do with Seafall) But... what if it is A LIVING DEAD COWBOY CTHULHU? ON A VIKING SHIP. IN SPACE!
I still don't think Cthulhu has been done right once. Cthulhu is a world ending beast that just seeing turns you mad because it is so unbelievable and other worldly not chi-bi big head takes two hits to die Cthulhu I agree that version of it needs to die.
I'm sure many developers are aware of that. The problem is players probably won't like a game where no matter what they do, they technically still lose. Even though some ideas sound awesome and are more true to Lovecraft, this is still a business. They have to do what will likely sell.
It would have to be very reliant on theme and offer a unusual win condition that would allow a game win but a story loss.
Even the Call of Cthulhu RPG and Arkham/Eldritch Horror?
RPG may meet my personal requirements. It's been awhile.
Glad I didn't preorder.
Man, I am rapidly losing interest in the game. It sounds very mediocre.
The game board looks CRAP.
yes it does. When I first saw some pictures half a year or so ago i immediately thought this is pretty much as boring as it gets.