Great breakdown. I think that the idea behind attaching your prussik to the belay loop vs the leg loop is that as we see more rappelling accidents many of these involve the rappeller not clipping both strands of the rope on a double rope rappel. If this occurs the full weight of the person is loaded onto the prussik. The leg loop isn’t “rated” for this force and it could lead to a failure of materials rendering the prussik useless. I would say that if everything is loaded correctly then the leg loop attachment is definitely going to provide you with added friction and control while rappelling. “Best practice” in today’s world is to attach the prussik to the belay loop. Again, the most important thing as you pointed out in the video at least once is to understand the system as a whole and make sure you’ve set it up appropriately.
Great vid. I was always under the impression that you only attach slings into the tie in loops as it stops the belay loop from having its natural movement. Belay loop only for carabiners. I attach the ATC to my belay loop with a carabiner and have the prusik above the ATC and attached to a carabiner in the belay loop. the downside to this is that the belay loop has no redundancy.
Yes, for some reason Arc’teryx fits very well with me as well, and super durable. I have a few others but the only one I actually use additional is a super light one from Mammut for Backcountry skiing.
Thanks for watching! So did I, unfortunately some people seem to think that you’ll instantly die, if you use it like that. Glad that we here in Switzerland are not the only ones doing the traditional method.
Great opinion article. Theres a context for everything. "You shouldn't" is not the same as "i wouldn't" . I dont know why you would build a setup that made you load a leg loop that isn't rated independently and inducing a twist and make it more difficult to stay upright. Lots of people use the leg loop, i dont and i wouldn't. But if your risk analysis says otherwise, feel free. Its definitely better than no prusik.
An option for those who prefer to use the harness tie-in points to extend their rappel device is to use a bowline on the bight. Having access to both ends of your extending sling makes this possible. Here's how to do it. 1) feed one end of your sling up through both tie-in points. 2) form a loop on the standing end with the standing end running under the loop's crossing point. 3) feed the working end up through the loop just enough to clear the loop. 4) take the standing end and pull it through the working end and finish by neatly dressing and snugging up all parts of the knot. Cheers
Great insights; Thank you. I once slipped a bit during a short rappell and the prusik (that had been attached to the belay-loop) had been biting so hard on the rope due to the aprupt shock-weight, that I had trouble getting it loose again. Tube and Prusik were pretty close togehter at that point (maybe 10-15cm) and they both seemed to be fully weighted equally. Also, I couldn´t pull myself up on the rope with one hand to untie / loosen the prusik with the other hand and did not manage to take rope in with the tube, cause it was so close together... so yeah, got stuck for some funny and awkward minutes there. Just a little more distance between tube and prusik (extension to circa neck or chin) and a little option to move the prusik up with the movement of the leg-loop would have helped me a lot. I go for the leg loop now, all day, everyday. BTW: what Knot are you using for the adjustment of the tube extension? Keep up the good work!
I’m glad you got out of that situation! For the extension, I use a larks head at the belay loop and a simple overhand at the rappelling device. To be honest, opening the overhand can sometimes be a real pain, but in the past, I was sometimes rappelling in sketchy situations (tired, bad/no lighting, bad weather). So I want to keep this as simple as possible - wouldn’t want to, e.g., tie an alpine butterfly knot just to have it open more easily when I’m back on the ground.
@@TakeTheHighground That´s what i thought and it makes absolute sense in those situations. Thanks. I still have so many questions regarding climbing... LOL. A friend and I going to rappelll into a 11m deep cave next month and i yet don´t know how to use my two simple pulleys to get any mechanical advantage out of them for the Ascent back up. Don´t want to exhaust myself with prusiks lifting my weight for half an hour. Do you have ideas or videos regarding the use of pulleys and mechanical advantage for going up a dynamic rope?
If your prusik is under the ATC then all it provides is a hand brake instead of your hand vs letting go so it might be ok not to be in the main belay loop as your prusik will not hold all your weight just substitute for your hand braking. But then you have the fear of the prusik sliding in the ATC and becoming loose that you acknowledge. I put the prusik above the ATC and in the main belay loop. That way it slides up and never into the ATC it never gets loose but it has to hold on to the rope without the ATC so it will hold all your weight so it has to be in the main belay loop. Let me know if my technique is flawed, I find it less sketchy than a prusik under the ATC.
I'm very much new to this and just using this comment to test my understanding, so I may well be wrong! If you do it your way and the Prusik becomes weight loaded do you not then have the issue of needing to pull all your weight up to loosen the Prusik, rather then the example in the vid of just being able to lift your leg to give enough slack for the Prusik to be loosened off?
@@simondunn1580 i’m by no means an expert either, but i just saw your comment and thought i could be of use. you’re exactly right. it seems that, if done properly, putting the prusik below the belay device is generally considered best practice by most, because of the issue you pointed out. it can be incredibly difficult, or even impossible in certain situations, to unweight the fully loaded prusik when it is above the device. it seems most people believe the risk of getting stuck from putting the prusik above, is far greater than any of the downsides of putting the prusik below.
Here's my technique ua-cam.com/video/FTAyjdiP0t0/v-deo.html (although lately i use the surgeons knot as a bend instead of the offset overhand knot). The friction knot i prefer is the helical knot because locks and releases smoothly. You'll also notice this technique doesn't use a carabiner for the backup, saving materials. I avoid extending the rappel for many reasons: -harder to test rappel (need longer tethers to compensate extended rappel) -harder to take up slack (which makes it harder to test) -more material required -potential loss of redundancy (extensions can be made redundant with extra effort) -speed of setup and takedown -when going over an overhang lip, extended devices get stuck on the ledge
i believe that both using the leg loop and the belay loop are okay, though i personally prefer the belay loop just because its reenforced and well paded. regarding the situation where you need to unweight the prusik to get it to slide down the rope, have you considered using an autoblock instead? sure, it has its own disadvantages but it´s a nice way to have a friction hitch backup that can be released under load
@@TakeTheHighground yeah, i usually use the autoblock if i’m just going down, but when i know i’ll need to remove some gear from the wall, take any photos or go hands free somehow i usually use a klemheist or prusik because if you get something stuck on the autoblock or just grab it by accident it’ll release pretty easy
Great video, I agree with pretty much eveything you went over here. I have a question about a set up I'm thinking of trying out. I recently bought a Valdortain Tresse prusik and I'm impressed with it, I was pondering the the idea of using it above my tube ( like swapping around the traditional set up) so my tube is low on my belay loop with the VT prusik on the extension but keeping both pretty close as there should be no problems with fouling etc. Any thoughts?
Hey Craig, thanks, much appreciate your comment. Let me look into it and play around with the idea, I don’t want to talk out of my ass without really having tested the idea. I’ll definitely get back to this comment and let you know. But again, much appreciate the comment, exactly this type of exchange and knowledge transfer is what this channel was meant for.
Craig, from experience, you most certainly can put a VT on extension above your ATC. What makes the VT ideal for this is that it can be fully loaded & then released by pressing down on the top. So right hand on the break line, left hand on the VT & as long as you are pressing down on the VT & minding tension with your break hand you will descend smoothly. To stop just stop guiding the VT & or will lock up. Keep in mind it will stretch several inches before it completely locks. But yes, this is actually a common setup in canyoneering & is commonly used. Have fun!
Is a backup prusik still a good idea when using a figure eight rappel device and not an atc? I’ve seen people use a prusik on the anchor side of the rope when using a figure eight but not on the brake side with a figure eight.
Great breakdown. I think that the idea behind attaching your prussik to the belay loop vs the leg loop is that as we see more rappelling accidents many of these involve the rappeller not clipping both strands of the rope on a double rope rappel. If this occurs the full weight of the person is loaded onto the prussik. The leg loop isn’t “rated” for this force and it could lead to a failure of materials rendering the prussik useless. I would say that if everything is loaded correctly then the leg loop attachment is definitely going to provide you with added friction and control while rappelling. “Best practice” in today’s world is to attach the prussik to the belay loop. Again, the most important thing as you pointed out in the video at least once is to understand the system as a whole and make sure you’ve set it up appropriately.
Great vid. I was always under the impression that you only attach slings into the tie in loops as it stops the belay loop from having its natural movement. Belay loop only for carabiners. I attach the ATC to my belay loop with a carabiner and have the prusik above the ATC and attached to a carabiner in the belay loop. the downside to this is that the belay loop has no redundancy.
Thanks for the video. By addressing the different opinions you really help to understand the technique even better.
Thanks!
I suspect your channel will soon have a tremendous amount of subscribers, for good reason!
Thank you, this is much appreciated!
I have the same harness, absolutely love it.
Yes, for some reason Arc’teryx fits very well with me as well, and super durable. I have a few others but the only one I actually use additional is a super light one from Mammut for Backcountry skiing.
In depth analysis and explanation. Thanks for sharing.
I’m glad you liked it, thank you for watching!
Thanks for this review of the options. I learned with the Prusik on the leg loop (Canada)
Thanks for watching! So did I, unfortunately some people seem to think that you’ll instantly die, if you use it like that. Glad that we here in Switzerland are not the only ones doing the traditional method.
Great opinion article. Theres a context for everything. "You shouldn't" is not the same as "i wouldn't" . I dont know why you would build a setup that made you load a leg loop that isn't rated independently and inducing a twist and make it more difficult to stay upright. Lots of people use the leg loop, i dont and i wouldn't. But if your risk analysis says otherwise, feel free. Its definitely better than no prusik.
An option for those who prefer to use the harness tie-in points to extend their rappel device is to use a bowline on the bight. Having access to both ends of your extending sling makes this possible. Here's how to do it.
1) feed one end of your sling up through both tie-in points. 2) form a loop on the standing end with the standing end running under the loop's crossing point. 3) feed the working end up through the loop just enough to clear the loop. 4) take the standing end and pull it through the working end and finish by neatly dressing and snugging up all parts of the knot.
Cheers
I like that, thank you for sharing!
Great insights; Thank you. I once slipped a bit during a short rappell and the prusik (that had been attached to the belay-loop) had been biting so hard on the rope due to the aprupt shock-weight, that I had trouble getting it loose again. Tube and Prusik were pretty close togehter at that point (maybe 10-15cm) and they both seemed to be fully weighted equally. Also, I couldn´t pull myself up on the rope with one hand to untie / loosen the prusik with the other hand and did not manage to take rope in with the tube, cause it was so close together... so yeah, got stuck for some funny and awkward minutes there.
Just a little more distance between tube and prusik (extension to circa neck or chin) and a little option to move the prusik up with the movement of the leg-loop would have helped me a lot. I go for the leg loop now, all day, everyday.
BTW: what Knot are you using for the adjustment of the tube extension?
Keep up the good work!
I’m glad you got out of that situation! For the extension, I use a larks head at the belay loop and a simple overhand at the rappelling device. To be honest, opening the overhand can sometimes be a real pain, but in the past, I was sometimes rappelling in sketchy situations (tired, bad/no lighting, bad weather). So I want to keep this as simple as possible - wouldn’t want to, e.g., tie an alpine butterfly knot just to have it open more easily when I’m back on the ground.
@@TakeTheHighground That´s what i thought and it makes absolute sense in those situations. Thanks.
I still have so many questions regarding climbing... LOL. A friend and I going to rappelll into a 11m deep cave next month and i yet don´t know how to use my two simple pulleys to get any mechanical advantage out of them for the Ascent back up. Don´t want to exhaust myself with prusiks lifting my weight for half an hour. Do you have ideas or videos regarding the use of pulleys and mechanical advantage for going up a dynamic rope?
Hey, I indeed have a video about pulley systems, you can find it here:
ua-cam.com/video/pmwwMLoqk0g/v-deo.html
Argument against prussik on leg loop: if ATC falls apart the prussic becomes your life support. I suppose this is why it is called "backup"?
If your prusik is under the ATC then all it provides is a hand brake instead of your hand vs letting go so it might be ok not to be in the main belay loop as your prusik will not hold all your weight just substitute for your hand braking. But then you have the fear of the prusik sliding in the ATC and becoming loose that you acknowledge. I put the prusik above the ATC and in the main belay loop. That way it slides up and never into the ATC it never gets loose but it has to hold on to the rope without the ATC so it will hold all your weight so it has to be in the main belay loop. Let me know if my technique is flawed, I find it less sketchy than a prusik under the ATC.
I'm very much new to this and just using this comment to test my understanding, so I may well be wrong! If you do it your way and the Prusik becomes weight loaded do you not then have the issue of needing to pull all your weight up to loosen the Prusik, rather then the example in the vid of just being able to lift your leg to give enough slack for the Prusik to be loosened off?
@@simondunn1580 i’m by no means an expert either, but i just saw your comment and thought i could be of use.
you’re exactly right. it seems that, if done properly, putting the prusik below the belay device is generally considered best practice by most, because of the issue you pointed out. it can be incredibly difficult, or even impossible in certain situations, to unweight the fully loaded prusik when it is above the device. it seems most people believe the risk of getting stuck from putting the prusik above, is far greater than any of the downsides of putting the prusik below.
Here's my technique ua-cam.com/video/FTAyjdiP0t0/v-deo.html (although lately i use the surgeons knot as a bend instead of the offset overhand knot). The friction knot i prefer is the helical knot because locks and releases smoothly. You'll also notice this technique doesn't use a carabiner for the backup, saving materials.
I avoid extending the rappel for many reasons:
-harder to test rappel (need longer tethers to compensate extended rappel)
-harder to take up slack (which makes it harder to test)
-more material required
-potential loss of redundancy (extensions can be made redundant with extra effort)
-speed of setup and takedown
-when going over an overhang lip, extended devices get stuck on the ledge
Hey man, sorry your comment got flagged by UA-cam and put in quatschtet. I’ll have a look at it!
i believe that both using the leg loop and the belay loop are okay, though i personally prefer the belay loop just because its reenforced and well paded.
regarding the situation where you need to unweight the prusik to get it to slide down the rope, have you considered using an autoblock instead? sure, it has its own disadvantages but it´s a nice way to have a friction hitch backup that can be released under load
I did not yet, but it’s an interesting idea. Are you using this system?
@@TakeTheHighground yeah, i usually use the autoblock if i’m just going down, but when i know i’ll need to remove some gear from the wall, take any photos or go hands free somehow i usually use a klemheist or prusik because if you get something stuck on the autoblock or just grab it by accident it’ll release pretty easy
Most of this just depends on the length of your extension though, right?
Correct, if somebody gets this wrong, everything else doesn’t matter at all.
Great video, I agree with pretty much eveything you went over here.
I have a question about a set up I'm thinking of trying out.
I recently bought a Valdortain Tresse prusik and I'm impressed with it, I was pondering the the idea of using it above my tube ( like swapping around the traditional set up)
so my tube is low on my belay loop with the VT prusik on the extension but keeping both pretty close as there should be no problems with fouling etc. Any thoughts?
Hey Craig, thanks, much appreciate your comment. Let me look into it and play around with the idea, I don’t want to talk out of my ass without really having tested the idea. I’ll definitely get back to this comment and let you know.
But again, much appreciate the comment, exactly this type of exchange and knowledge transfer is what this channel was meant for.
Craig, from experience, you most certainly can put a VT on extension above your ATC. What makes the VT ideal for this is that it can be fully loaded & then released by pressing down on the top. So right hand on the break line, left hand on the VT & as long as you are pressing down on the VT & minding tension with your break hand you will descend smoothly. To stop just stop guiding the VT & or will lock up. Keep in mind it will stretch several inches before it completely locks. But yes, this is actually a common setup in canyoneering & is commonly used. Have fun!
This general concept is common among the arborists
Is a backup prusik still a good idea when using a figure eight rappel device and not an atc?
I’ve seen people use a prusik on the anchor side of the rope when using a figure eight but not on the brake side with a figure eight.
Yes. Possibly even more so
بسیارعالی
Thank you!