Who Says Mary Was a Virgin?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 5 гру 2023
- Visit www.bartehrman.com/courses/ to shop from Bart Ehrman’s online courses and get a special discount by using code: MJPODCAST on all courses.
Almost anyone who knows anything about Christianity knows that Jesus was born of a virgin. But was he? This miraculous event is found in only two passages of the entire New Testament (in Matthew and Luke). Did the other New Testament authors know about it? If so, why didn't they mention it? If not, how could they not? And where did the idea of a virgin birth even come from? If it is not a major concern for the twenty-five other books of the New Testament, why did it come to be so important in the Christian tradition -- so much so that many people today assume that anyone who does not believe in it cannot be a Christian? In this episode we deal with these and other intriguing issues highly relevant to the Christmas season.
-In the New Testament, Jesus’ mother is said to be a virgin. Are there other religions from the time that describe virgin births?
-Do all of the canonical gospels portray Mary as having been a virgin?
-Are readers supposed to understand that God physically impregnated Mary, or is it more of a spiritual occurrence?
-What do scholars think is the significance of this depiction? Why would Matthew want to describe Jesus’ mother as being a virgin?
-In his account of the virgin conception and birth, Matthew quotes Isaiah 7:14 - “Behold, the virgin will conceive and bear a son, and they will call his name Emmanuel”. He’s not quoting the original Hebrew text of Isaiah, but rather the Greek translation known as the Septuagent…and there’s a pretty crucial difference between the Hebrew and the Greek. Could you talk a little bit about this?
-How about the Gospel of Luke? It also shows a virgin birth, but is the significance of it different to in the Gospel of Matthew?
-Is it significant that neither Mark, the earliest synoptic gospel, nor John, the latest, seem to know about the virgin birth?
-What about the other NT writings?
-Do any of the non-canonical writings talk about Mary as a virgin, or explicitly state that she wasn’t a virgin?
-If Mary is still a virgin after Jesus’s birth, does that relate to her being a perpetual virgin? What is that, and how does it work with Jesus’ having siblings?
-Once the idea of perpetual virginity came into play, how does the church account for Jesus’ siblings?
-When does the virgin birth appear to become a central tenet of Christianity, and why do you think it became so important?
I was raised in the same kind of upbringing, and I find this man's discoveries and courage to share them is refreshing
The New Testament says that Jesus was born of a virgin which is impossible and the Old Testament says that Sarah gave birth to Issac in 90 yrs of age.
If Christianity is not true then Judaism is not true as well.
Next you're going to tell me she didn't have a little lamb too.
That's right she didn't have a Little Lamb she had the big lamb the Lamb of her God as the mythology dictates
Well that's just pure blasphemy now
Listening about saintliness = sexual abstinence I again wonder why sex became the thing obsessed about and not one of the other sins. I still find it puzzling that lying, stealing, and killing never reach these heights of obsession in Christianity.
The Bible was translated by monks I don't think they liked women just my opinion
Population control.
@@user-ci6oj2ih8s back then there weren't as many people as now the Bible said be fruitful and multiply
Calling it "obsession" is quite a bit over the top but every one of those things are extremely important to every core doctrine of every church I've ever been to so I don't know why you would say that.
Sexual immorality is the most prolific sin that is constantly and openly shoved in everyone's face. It only appears to be the most "obsessed" over.
Those things a true Christian would never commit. Although EVERYBODY lies and hardly anybody saves themselves for marriage.
So hilarious that many Christians quote fulfillment of prophecies as their best evidence justifying their belief when very little of it is contained within Mark, but pretty much just seems like Matthew and John went fishing for as many prophecies as possible and found a way to write them all into their gospels as modifications to the story they copied from Mark
Growing up in the church, i always heard that becoming educated would mean losing your faith. It was viewed as a warning then, but now it should be viewed as a prediction.
YES!!!! I was just thinking of that! My mother, years ago, was beyond disgusted that a young man we knew had "gone to college and lost his faith".
That’s what happened to me as a psychology student. I got the see the contrast between empirical research methods of scientists, and ideologically driven arguments of pastors, who really know nothing beyond what scripture says. Despite their ignorance, they actually feel qualified to step into other lanes and criticize the real experts there. As far as they’re concerned, they’ve got the “word of God”, so who cares what the experts have found through decades of careful methodical research?
It’s extremely frustrating, and is what spurred my journey out of Christianity.
I don’t see how you need formal education to recognize the essential contradictions in religious doctrine. I saw them pretty clearly in second grade, which had nothing whatsoever to do with what I was being taught in school. I was tormented by them for a considerable time until I asked myself what do others do, and it seemed to me clearly apparent that others generally didn’t think about these things at all. I decided temporarily to follow their lead. That wasn’t renunciation of “faith” so much as a moratorium on thought. I lifted the moratorium in fifth grade, whereupon I came to consider myself an agnostic, influenced not by formal education but by library books I was informally reading about science. In sixth grade I came to consider myself an atheist, influenced by analogy with the Michelson-Morley experiment (library books still) that demonstrated light didn’t need a medium through which to propagate. I’ve subsequently changed my mind or refined my views several times, but I’ve never been the slightest bit influenced by formal education (in matters of theology) after sixth grade and never again (in matters of theology) by books I’ve read. I’ve merely thought things through and then rethought things through.
That’s because you are only half way. To paraphrase a quote by Heisenberg “ The first sip of the cup of the natural sciences will make you an athiest, but argue bottom of the cup you will find God”.
@@daviddrew3372this ⬆️
In mammals, a virgin birth would always produce a female because of how our sex genes work.
In bees on the other hand, males are routinely produced via parthenogenesis from eggs not fertilized by sperm.
You are referring to reality.
Religion is about the unreal, the unknown and the impossible.
In the Fable, the virgin birth is produced by a translation error and by copying ideas from other religions.
So what is the Jesus pronoun? (just kidding)
Interesting
Both our babies from virgin births are female but we made that choice before conception. If what you claim is correct, our geneticist would be surprised to hear it.
@@anushkasekkingstad1300 You used sperm in the process, didn't you? Is this what the Christians meant, that Maryam impregnated herself by self-insemination with sperm, but without sex? That would not be the sort of miracle it is often presented as.
I was talking about actual parthenogenesis which occurs in vertebrates, for example fish and reptiles, but has as yet not been observed to occur in mammals or birds (except potentially the biblical case, and artificially via cloning of cattle).
I’ve been raised Catholic, so Marty’s virgin birth and her being free of sin is heavily emphasized and given great importance. It’s really interesting seeing this from a historical and philosophical perspective
It is interesting that an old translation error and some copying from other religions are so important to some people.
What about caring more about the real world?
Years ago when I was a theological seminary librarian the newsletter of the National Association of Evangelicals published an interview with someone who had been on the team that translated the New International Version of the New Testament. Among other things he stated that all members of the team had to sign a pledge that they subscribed to the inerrency of the Bible. I couldn't find that stipulation in the preface to the translation. The interviewer then asked what they would do if some passage in the sources contradicted accepted dogma, for instance, "what if the word usually translated as "virgin" actually meant "young woman"? He replied that in that case they would have to translate it virgin since the virgin birth was a fundamental doctrine. I asked a seminary professor, a New Testament scholar, to comment. Right away he stated, "They are putting creed before scripture". I wrote the editor of the NAE newsletter and asked for his comment. His reply was, "That's an interesting question".
In the early 1970s one of my professors told us young woman was mistranslated as virgin and that the miracle was not in the birth but in what he did during the 3 years of his ministry.
@@susanrhodes9079 and the greek word for sabbath ( sabbaton) was replaced with " first day of the week " several times. See interlinear and strongs exhaustive concordance
*Proof that isiah **7:14** speaks of a woman that is already pregnant.*
It seems that everyone is fixated with the word almah being young woman or a virgin (young woman, and I have plenty of proof for that from the OT), when there's another word in that same verse (!!), that makes it clear that this woman is *already pregnant* - e.g. couldn't even be thought of as virgin!
*This is the original text from Isaiah 7:14:*
לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא, לָכֶם--אוֹת: הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה, *הָרָה hara* וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ, עִמָּנוּ אֵל.
*See the correct translation (chabad):*
14Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, *the young woman is with child,* and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.
*Hara - present tense examples: (KJV + NIV)*
___________________________________________________
*Genesis 16:11*
וַיֹּ֤אמֶר לָהּ֙ מַלְאַ֣ךְ יְהוָ֔ה הִנָּ֥ךְ *הָרָ֖ה hara* וְיֹלַ֣דְתְּ בֵּ֑ן וְקָרָ֤את שְׁמוֹ֙ יִשְׁמָעֵ֔אל כִּֽי־שָׁמַ֥ע יְהוָ֖ה אֶל־עָנְיֵֽךְ׃
And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, *thou art with child* and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction.
___________________________________________________
*Genesis 38:24*
וַיְהִ֣י ׀ כְּמִשְׁלֹ֣שׁ חֳדָשִׁ֗ים וַיֻּגַּ֨ד לִֽיהוּדָ֤ה לֵֽאמֹר֙ זָֽנְתָה֙ תָּמָ֣ר כַּלָּתֶ֔ךָ וְגַ֛ם הִנֵּ֥ה *הָרָ֖ה hara* לִזְנוּנִ֑ים וַיֹּ֣אמֶר יְהוּדָ֔ה הוֹצִיא֖וּהָ וְתִשָּׂרֵֽף׃
And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, *she is with child* by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.
___________________________________________________
*Genesis 38:25*
הִ֣וא מוּצֵ֗את וְהִ֨יא שָׁלְחָ֤ה אֶל־חָמִ֙יהָ֙ לֵאמֹ֔ר לְאִישׁ֙ אֲשֶׁר־אֵ֣לֶּה לּ֔וֹ אָנֹכִ֖י *הָרָ֑ה hara* וַתֹּ֙אמֶר֙ הַכֶּר־נָ֔א לְמִ֞י הַחֹתֶ֧מֶת וְהַפְּתִילִ֛ים וְהַמַּטֶּ֖ה הָאֵֽלֶּה׃
When she was brought forth, she sent to her father in law, saying, By the man, whose these are, *am I with child:* and she said, Discern, I pray thee, whose are these, the signet, and bracelets, and staff
___________________________________________________
*1st Samuel **4:19*
וְכַלָּת֣וֹ אֵֽשֶׁת־פִּינְחָס֮ *הָרָ֣ה hara* לָלַת֒ וַתִּשְׁמַ֣ע אֶת־הַשְּׁמֻעָ֔ה אֶל־הִלָּקַח֙ אֲר֣וֹן הָאֱלֹהִ֔ים וּמֵ֥ת חָמִ֖יהָ וְאִישָׁ֑הּ וַתִּכְרַ֣ע וַתֵּ֔לֶד כִּֽי־נֶהֶפְכ֥וּ עָלֶ֖יהָ צִרֶֽיהָ׃שמואל א', ד', יט'
And his daughter in law, Phinehas' wife, *was with child, near to be delivered:* and when she heard the tidings that the ark of God was taken, and that her father in law and her husband were dead, she bowed herself and travailed; for her pains came upon her.
___________________________________________________
*2 Samuel 11:5*
וַתַּ֖הַר הָֽאִשָּׁ֑ה וַתִּשְׁלַח֙ וַתַּגֵּ֣ד לְדָוִ֔ד וַתֹּ֖אמֶר *הָרָ֥ה hara* אָנֹֽכִי׃
And the woman conceived, and sent and told David, and said, *I am with child.*
___________________________________________________
*Jeremiah 31:8 NIV*
הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן וְקִבַּצְתִּים֮ מִיַּרְכְּתֵי־אָרֶץ֒ בָּ֚ם עִוֵּ֣ר וּפִסֵּ֔חַ *הָרָ֥ה hara* וְיֹלֶ֖דֶת יַחְדָּ֑ו קָהָ֥ל גָּד֖וֹל יָשׁ֥וּבוּ הֵֽנָּה׃
See, I will bring them from the land of the north
and gather them from the ends of the earth.
Among them will be the blind and the lame,
*expectant mothers* and women in labor; a great throng will return.
___________________________________________________
*Isaiah 26:17*
כְּמ֤וֹ *הָרָ֥ה hara* תַּקְרִ֣יב לָלֶ֔דֶת תָּחִ֥יל תִּזְעַ֖ק בַּחֲבָלֶ֑יהָ כֵּ֛ן הָיִ֥ינוּ מִפָּנֶ֖יךָ יְהוָֽה׃
As *a pregnant woman* about to give birth writhes and cries out in her pain, so were we in your presence, Lord.
___________________________________________________
*Exodus 21:22*
וְכִֽי־יִנָּצ֣וּ אֲנָשִׁ֗ים וְנָ֨גְפ֜וּ אִשּׁה *הָרָה֙ hara* וְיָצְא֣וּ יְלָדֶ֔יהָ וְלֹ֥א יִהְיֶ֖ה אָס֑וֹן עָנ֣וֹשׁ יֵעָנֵ֗שׁ כַּֽאֲשֶׁ֨ר יָשִׁ֤ית עָלָיו֙ בַּ֣עַל הָֽאִשָּׁ֔ה וְנָתַ֖ן בִּפְלִלִֽים׃
22 “If people are fighting and hit *a pregnant woman* and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows.
___________________________________________________
Hebrew is my mother's tongue 🙏🏼
@@pazrahamim9220 The text in Isa 7:14 does not say, the alma is already pregnant. No translation says that, it is your own interpretation, even the JPS Tanakh 1917 says "behold, the (not a) young woman SHALL conceive and bear a son. The word alma we find also in Gen 24:43 for Rebecka, she is a virgin (24:16), and the sister of Moses is called alma, a young girl or maiden (Exo 2:8). All of them are virgins.
Your scriptures are not virgins, but married women, or playing the harlot, or Hagar, being with child from Abraham.
The young woman (virgin) will be with child and that is a sign, a miracle from God for Israel to see the birth of their Messiah, who is EL immanu, God with us, born of a virgin (Luke 1:26-38), the seed of the woman (Gen 3:15), the only God (EL), who was ever formed (Isa 43:10), the only Savior (Isa 43:11); the Word that became flesh (John 1:1-4+14).
The sign (oth) here is a prophetic promise of a certain predicted event, as in 1.Sam 10:7+9 (Strong's), which is thrown into the text of Isa 7:14 and therefore belongs to the hidden God (EL, Isa 45:15), you do not know. He is the I AM HE of the burning bush (Exo 3:2), the Angel of the LORD; the Word (1.Sam3:1+7), The one that let the Israelites out of Egypt into the promised land and made HIS covenant with Israel on Mt. Sinai (Judges 2:1; Deut 4:20). Seek Him and you will find Him, He is the only way to the Father (John 14:6+9), the truth and the Lord from Heaven, the 2nd Adam without sin (1.Cor 15:47), a life giving Spirit (eternal life), a gift from the Father of lights.
@@benny-yj7pq
The translations was taken from the Chabad site, and as Hebrew is my mother's tongue I can tell you IT IS CORRECT - I gave more than enough examples FROM CHRISTIAN TRANSLATIONS (!!) how that same word means the same thing !!
Pregnant - present tense.
You can take your excuses somewhere else - time to get acquainted with Hebrew. This is just one example. There are plenty more.
The woman Isaiah spoke of was already pregnant - Matthew lied - knowingly!!
He also changed what the verse said that SHE will call him imanu-el to fit with the Christian narrative, as Mary was told to call him Jesus - not Imanu-el.
And here is proof regarding*Almah*:
*Proof that Alma in Isiah **7:14** means a young woman:*
Alma (young woman) cannot be translated as Virgin and the proof of that is that the woman in question is already pregnant (!) and the text is clear about that as I already showed you in the previous response.
Here are other citations from the OT that Alma or the derivative of said word can be found, and the way they were translated.
Words in hebrew that derive from youth and young age - examples from the OT
עלמה - alma - young woman;
עלם - elem - young man
עלמות - alamot - young women
עלומיו - alumav - his youth
עלומיך - alumecha - your youth
__________________________________________________
*Genesis 24:43*
הִנֵּה אָנֹכִי נִצָּב, עַל-עֵין הַמָּיִם; וְהָיָה *הָעַלְמָה,* הַיֹּצֵאת לִשְׁאֹב
See, I am standing beside this spring. If a *young woman* comes out to draw water
__________________________________________________
*1 Sam. **17:56*
יֹּאמֶר, הַמֶּלֶךְ: שְׁאַל אַתָּה, בֶּן-מִי-זֶה *הָעָלֶם*
The king said, “Find out whose son this *young man* is.”
__________________________________________________
*1 Sam. **20:22*
אִם-כֹּה אֹמַר *לָעֶלֶם,* הִנֵּה הַחִצִּים מִמְּךָ וָהָלְאָה--לֵךְ, כִּי שִׁלַּחֲךָ יְהוָה
But if I say to *the boy,* ‘Look, the arrows are beyond you,’ then you must go, because the Lord has sent you away
__________________________________________________
*Isiah 54:4*
כִּי בֹשֶׁת *עֲלוּמַיִךְ* תִּשְׁכָּחִי, וְחֶרְפַּת אַלְמְנוּתַיִךְ לֹא תִזְכְּרִי-עוֹד
You will forget the shame of *your youth* and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood
__________________________________________________
*Psalms 68:25*
קִדְּמוּ שָׁרִים, אַחַר נֹגְנִים; בְּתוֹךְ *עֲלָמוֹת,* תּוֹפֵפוֹת
In front are the singers, after them the musicians; with them are *the young women* playing the timbrels.
__________________________________________________
*Psalms 89:46*
הִקְצַרְתָּ, יְמֵי *עֲלוּמָיו;* הֶעֱטִיתָ עָלָיו בּוּשָׁה סֶלָה
You have shortened the days of *his youth;* You have enwrapped him with shame forever. (Chabad)
__________________________________________________
*Job **20:11*
עַצְמוֹתָיו, מָלְאוּ *עֲלוּמָו;* וְעִמּוֹ, עַל-עָפָר תִּשְׁכָּב
The *youthful* vigor that fills his bones will lie with him in the dust.
__________________________________________________
*Job **33:25*
רֻטְפַשׁ בְּשָׂרוֹ מִנֹּעַר; יָשׁוּב, לִימֵי *עֲלוּמָיו*
let their flesh be renewed like a child’s; let them be restored as in the days of *their youth’*
__________________________________________________
*Proverbs 30:19*
וְדֶרֶךְ גֶּבֶר *בְּעַלְמָה*
and the way of a man with *a young woman.* __________________________________________________
*Song of songs 1:3*
רֵיחַ שְׁמָנֶיךָ טוֹבִים, שֶׁמֶן תּוּרַק שְׁמֶךָ; עַל-כֵּן, *עֲלָמוֹת* אֲהֵבוּךָ
Pleasing is the fragrance of your perfumes; your name is like perfume poured out. No wonder *the young women* love you!
__________________________________________________
*If you'll read Isaiah 7 in context you will see that there was an imminent threat - that boy eating the curds and the honey (products you can't find in the city in a time of siege) is a sign for king Ahaz that the two kings that invaded his country will not succeed in taking him down and Jerusalem along with it, they would die within a few years - its in verse 16.*
*That is the sign ! Not a virgin birth!*
Alexander the Greats mother told his father, on returning from battle, that she was raped and made pregnate by the god Zeus. That's her story and she's sticking to it.
Pregnant, not “pregnate”. Alternatively, you could say “WAS IMpregnated”.
What an interesting and an insightful podcast.Thanks to Megan and Professor Bart.If I had a chance to ask Prof. a question,I would like to ask why does he think most English translation of Isaiah 7:14 translated that bit about almah as "..SHALL/WILL concieve and bear a son.." instead of "..IS WITH child, and she shall bear a son.."? Is there anything ambiguous in the original Hebrew text? If indeed Hebrew has no future tense as some may want to argue,then why not interprete the verse as "IS WITH child, and she BEARS a son,"?
Another question I would like to ask is if it is 'a' almah as with indefinite article or 'the' almah as definite?
It is the alma, the only one, descendant from King David through the root of Jesse, namely Nathan, a branch out of dry ground, betrothed to the kingly line of King David, a virgin, to bring forth the Messiah in His given time, before the destruction of the 2nd temple, 483 years after the decree of Artaxerxes in Neh 2 in his 20th year (445 BC), converted to our time 365,25 days of the year, we come to 32 AD, when Yeshua was crucified Dan 9:26.
Excellent interview from both of you. Very interesting and informative. Thanks.
Wonderful program guys , and I love how you guys make it simple for understanding , please read the book , name The Holy Megillah for your listening Audience.
Always a pleasure to listen to Bart and Megan
That final listener's question to Bart was mine. Thanks for asking it, Megan. I believe this is a fact that acts as a useful antidote to the Sola Scriptura fundamentalists.
Thank you for asking this question. I have had a problem with this Sola Scriptura doctrine.
Yes, which scripture canon and why? Jesus and Paul contradict each on many important points and they both quote from the missing book of Enoch/Necho, no?
I’d really love an episode on why to think that Luke 1 and 2 is an interpolation!
Really eye opening! Thank you so much.
But not mind opening.
Thanks so much for this series!!!
Well done! I Love all of your work
Thank you guys!
Perfect Christmas intro.. love this series
It took 72 years of life and 48 years in music ministry to realize the "Church" has lied to us since 325 AD.
There are good people going to "Church" but the only time Christ appears in 'christ'ianity is in the first six letters of the word.
David Leckrone
Appomattox, VA
Being an ex Catholic for 32 years when I question the church they basically kicked me out not officially but the way the priest handle the situation you're not welcome here so I quit going and the church that I attended back then does it covered they finally closed
The church closed because of covid and this voice typing isn't so accurate
I don't think you should put your full name and where you're from in your comments. You're giving away too much personal information. It's not a good habit to give this information out so easily online.
Thanks. Good advice.
Social media is a world curse as good people cannot communicate honestly, but you are absolutely right. Thanks again.
Great episode, guys! Are there any episodes planned involving the themes of the Great Schism, the Protestant Reformation, or the differences between evangelism and fundamentalism?
I believe Mr. Ehrman's area of interest is about the Bible.
@@cecileroy557 The reformation was how and why the Bible was changed
Here is the difference between those who belong to God snd those who do not.
Jesus said, You must be born again. John 3:3-8. "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Why? "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter i to the kingdom of God.
That whjch is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit." Verses 3:5-6.
Born again is also called regeneration. Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary online.
'Regeneration means; Reproduction, the act of producing anew. In theology, New birth by the grace of God, that change by which the will and natural enmity of man to God and his law are subdued, and a principle of supreme
love to God and his law, or holy affections, are implanted in the heart.'
Humbling isn't it. We cannot do that on our own, even with tons and tons of repenting God.
Jesus said, My words are spirit and life." John 6:63. We cannot walk by the Spirit when we walk by our own understanding, called sin.
Ask God to send the Holy Ghost, Luke 11:13. He will bring your sins to mind. As he does ask Jesus to forgive you. This will be painful, pride hates it!
When you see your desperate need, call out to Jesus to see save you. He came to save sinners.
Then do as the risen Jesus commanded, be baptized. Matthew 28:18-20. Think on Mark 1:1-5, 16:16, John 3:3-8, 2 Peter 3:9, Romans 6:3-11, 1 Corinthians 12:13 and Colossians 2:6-15.
Even after listening to Prof Ehrman for hundreds of hours, I learn something new every time and think about history and religion a little differently.
You mean Christianity and it’s history surely, I hope!
@@mighty3846 - Dr Ehrman is knowledgeable about ancient Greek and Roman history, too. He often speaks about them.
@@mighty3846 let me tell you what I know about history George Washington was born I think I don't know I wasn't there. He may have had wooden teeth but I don't think so. He may have chopped down a cherry tree and said (I can not tell a lie). ?!?!?!
@@herminepursch2470 Skeptic or just not knowledgeable?
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 🎶 *The Virgin Birth Introduction*
- Exploring the origin and significance of the Virgin birth in the New Testament.
- The prevalence of the Virgin birth story during the Christmas season.
- Questioning the story's importance to early Christians and its subsequent central role in various denominations.
03:03 🤔 *Virgin Birth in Other Religions*
- Clarifying the uniqueness of the Virgin birth of Jesus compared to Greek and Roman traditions.
- Distinctions between miraculous births in Greek and Roman myths and the Virgin birth story in the New Testament.
- Highlighting the absence of virgin birth narratives similar to Jesus in contemporary religions.
05:03 📚 *Differing Virgin Birth Accounts*
- Addressing the contrasting narratives of the Virgin birth in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.
- Noting the contradictions and differences between Matthew and Luke's accounts.
- Emphasizing the absence of the Virgin birth story in Mark and John, the earliest and latest canonical gospels.
08:13 📖 *Matthew's Scriptural Fulfillment*
- Analyzing Matthew's viewpoint on the Virgin birth's significance through the lens of fulfilling prophecy.
- Explaining Matthew's use of Isaiah's prophecy to depict Jesus' birth as fulfilling scripture.
- Discussing the linguistic discrepancy between the Hebrew text and the Greek translation in Isaiah 7:14.
15:22 🌟 *Luke's Divine Origin Narrative*
- Contrasting Luke's perspective on the Virgin birth as portraying Jesus' divine origin.
- Exploring Luke's focus on Jesus' divine heritage rather than fulfilling prophecy.
- Highlighting the differences in theological emphasis between Matthew and Luke.
17:23 🔍 *Significance of Absence in Mark and John*
- Significance of the absence of Virgin birth narratives in Mark and John and its theological implications.
- Speculation on reasons behind Mark's omission and John's lack of reference to the Virgin birth.
- Observing the combination of Virgin birth and Incarnation by later theologians in the Creed.
19:54 📜 *Virgin Birth Beyond Matthew and Luke*
- Discussing the scarcity of references to Jesus' birth in the New Testament apart from Matthew and Luke.
- Pointing out Paul's indirect mention of Jesus' birth without specifically mentioning the Virgin birth.
- Highlighting Acts' omission of Jesus' Virgin birth despite being written by Luke, the author of one of the Virgin birth narratives.
22:09 📖 *Early Christian writings on Virgin birth*
- Christian writings assume Jesus born of a virgin based on Matthew and Luke.
- Non-canonical sources like the Proto Gospel of James elaborate on Jesus' birth details.
- Traditions from non-Christian sources suggest Mary was impregnated by a Roman soldier.
24:40 🤰 *Perpetual virginity of Mary*
- Clarifies terms: virginal conception, virginal birth, and Perpetual virginity.
- Perpetual virginity arose in the 3rd-5th centuries, emphasizing a chaste life.
- Joseph's supposed previous marriage or cousins presented as explanations for Jesus' siblings.
30:49 🌟 *Evolution of the importance of Virgin birth*
- The Virgin birth was not initially crucial in early Christianity, absent in Mark and John.
- Gradually gains significance in 2nd-3rd centuries, marking Jesus' uniqueness.
- Heightened importance in 4th century: seen as proof fulfilling scripture, emphasizing spiritual life over bodily desires.
36:31 🎄 *Bart's upcoming Christmas course*
- Bart's upcoming course challenges the notion of Jesus' virgin birth.
- Focuses on New Testament evidence suggesting Joseph as Jesus' father.
- Discusses contradictions between the accounts of Matthew and Luke regarding Jesus' birth.
39:52 📚 *Theological reflections in Gospel narratives*
- Gospel stories seem shaped around Jesus' death and resurrection.
- References in the text hinting at later events, such as Jesus' prediction of his death.
- Narrative elements subtly hinting at a broader cosmic plan tied to Jesus' death and resurrection.
44:40 📜 *Interpretation of Old Testament references to Jesus*
- Early Christians sought passages in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) to align with Jesus's life and suffering.
- Passages like Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 were construed as references to Jesus' suffering for others.
- Various Old Testament instances, such as the story of Adam and Eve, were interpreted to foreshadow Jesus's sacrifice.
46:27 📖 *Author's portrayal of Jesus in Mark's Gospel*
- Mark's portrayal in his Gospel emphasizes Jesus facing death and its significance.
- Mark's depiction shows Jesus in deep agony and despair, questioning why he must endure his fate.
- The narrative aims to convey that even Jesus, facing death, didn't comprehend its necessity, but the readers would understand the divine purpose behind it.
50:31 📚 *Absence of scripture in early Christian creeds*
- Early Christian creeds, like the Apostles' and Nicene Creed, do not mention belief in the Bible as a criterion for being Christian.
- These creeds express theological views rooted in biblical interpretations rather than explicitly stating belief in the Bible.
- The absence of a direct mention of the Bible in these creeds suggests that historical Christian identity wasn't based on belief in the Bible itself.
Made with HARPA AI
Wow. You really put some effort into this.
@@jeffryphillipsburnsliterally says
*made with AI*
at the bottom
@@knotlockthey didn't say a lot of effort lol
All great heroes must be born from virgins.
Greatest word about religion on history which nobody read.
I have had standup arguments with priests, bishops and nuns about the crazy things that they throw out
Like standup comedy? 🎭
I really appreciate these interviews. Mostly I enjoy the information. Meaning Bart simply gives info for us, the listener, to make our judgments. Better yet provokes us to study more not just to rely on what we are told.👍👍👍
Um, Atheists and other anti-Christ's are relying on what Ehrman is telling them to believe. You know that right?
How can you possibly make judgements when you dont know the history? Whom do you trust for your information, yourself?
I find Dr Bart very scholerly, that's why he bring mistakes in translation which I concur with him , but God tells us to abide in him that he might express his word to us. That's why at Pentecost, it was said ' this was that spoken by Joel.
David in psalms says God spoke once and I heard twice psalms 62:11. Meaning that if we approach the Bible reverently we'll know the truth.
@user-tn8oe6eb7u bart has talks on how the spirit filled belief was added, some of the gospels don't focus on spirit at all, some do. They are fighting over the subject.
Excited to read Bart’s new book.
Not excited to hear that.
Thank you for spreading information about confusion, contradictions, improbabilities and impossibilities in the Fable.
"Reading the bible is the best cure for Christianity" - Mark Twain
I'm glad Bart covers Isaiah 7:14 (again) but it will (again) fall on deaf ears.
People believe what they want to believe. Everyone thinks they know the truth
The NT says she was a virgin until the birth of Jesus and I trust God over men who are sinful and will parish because of sin.His coming seems very close.
@@chrisstathe9183 They promised it would happen before the last Apostle died. The only possible conclusion is that it already happened, way back when. All the chosen went to heaven, back when; there were so few, nobody noticed. Everybody left behind were ... all our ancestors, sorry.
@@sciptick "Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”
@@chrisstathe9183the NT was written by men and then edited and mistranslated numerous times.
Gospel of Matthew was originally written in Aramaic for a Jewish audience. That’s why He was pointing out that Jesus fulfilled the Isaiah prophecy. Also, no one else in Isaiah’s time was called ‘Immanuel’ God with us.
@ 37:22 ... Matthew 1:19 says:"Because Joseph, her husband to be, was a righteous man, and because he did not want to disgrace her, he intended to divorce her privately." - so if Matthew describes Joseph wanting to divorce Mary quietly to protect her from disgrace of infidelity, how can anyone imply that Matthew thought Joseph was the father?? 🤔
Bart, I know you're ot a Christian, but God bless you and thank you. You're awesome. Also, thanks to the lady for asking the right questions. God bless you too.
Anyone else do a lil' dance when the intro music for the show comes on? Just me?
I love the intro music!
"Let's begin!"
Just you.
@@jps0117 I also dislike pee soaked Wheaties in the morning.
I actually skip 60 seconds to kinda skip the music and a bit of the preamble.
Dr. Ehrman says that there are 4 terms that people get confused, but he only discusses 3 of them: virginal conception, virgin birth, and the perpetual virginity of Mary. The one he didn't get to was the immaculate conception, which is a totally different thing still.
Luckily 3 of the 4 topics are not biblical, virgin birth - Jesus teleported out of Mary, perpetual virgin - we have evidence Jesus biological brothers and sisters,
Jesus did not have biological brothers and sisters.@@scotthix2926
Mary was a good Jewish woman and the old testament part in Bible says be fruitful and multiply and I believe she was
@@scotthix2926
December 27, 2023
St. John the Beloved.
Christus natus est nobis;
venite, adoremus!
In what book does it say that Our Lord Jesus Christ had biological brothers and sisters? If He had, why did Jesus gave His Mother to John when He was dying on the Cross. Would His brothers or sisters would not get mad that He gave His mother to another person not His biological brothers and sisters?
We're in the 21st century I have never heard or known that Jesus or Mary's descendant step up that Mary or Jesus was their direct blood relatives and they are proud that God-Jesus was part of their BLOODLINE? Lol!!!
Conclusion: You don't understand why God the Father sent His Only Begotten Son to be born to THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION (MARY, Most Holy The Virgin Mother of God).
To save the human race from sin. To open heaven again because Adam and Eve's sin denied us heaven.
PRAYER TO THE HOLY GHOST.
"Come Holy Ghost, *fill the hearts of Thy faithful * and enkindle in them the fire of Thy love. *Send forth Thy Spirit, * and they shall be created, * and Thou shalt renew the face of the earth. *
O God, Who by the light of the Holy Ghost, * didst instruct the hearts of the faithful, * grant that in the same Holy Spirit * we may be truly wise* and ever rejoice in His consolation. * Through Christ our Lord. Amen.
Let's not trust anything this guy says shall we. Immaculate conception is Catholic and they say that Mary was sinless. Mary was in no way sinless but Jesus was and that is because sin is inherited from the father and not the mother. We have all inherited sin from Adam and not Eve.
I always wanted books for Christmas. I chose the books myself and my birthday was the middle of November.
One thing I noticed this past Christmas season was the Christmas mass didn't talk about the virgin birth at all! It was about the coming of Jesus and how it will be important to Easter! There was literally nothing about the significance of the birth. It was all about a way to transition to Easter.
These commentaries are fantastic. Much appreciated. Here's a question for Bart: Are there any indications, in the gospels or extant, that the gospel writers actually knew one another?
He doesnt read comments, if you go on his website you can submit questions there
That's a great question!
Knew personally or knew the work of? It’s basically universally agreed that Luke and Matthew both had (and extensively copied) Mark. Most scholars think John didn’t know the prior gospels, but there’s some debate. No indication that any of them personally knew each other, and various reasons to think it’s unlikely.
@@normative Knew personally. I figured that was probably the case. Thanks for the response.
If you accept the NT as true … then Luke, as a traveling partner of Paul, probably knew Matthew and John (since Paul met with the Judean Apostles at least a couple times) and Mark (who was also a sometimes traveling partner with Paul). Luke almost certainly knew Peter (who ministered with Paul in Galatia), who many scholars believe was the source of Mark’s Gospel. But who knows for sure?
I don't know why this was explained to me by a Greek Orthodox Priest but in short a lot of the Bible was originally scribed in Greek and was converted to other languages which caused problems.
One thing I remember that Mary was recorded as being pure which over time got translated to virgin which has stuck and is taken literally....
Now will watch the video and see what is revealed 😄
Edit: I should have explained I was 11 and had been told to leave conformation class in Dr Barnardos 😂 this is the short version....today I'm still an atheist
Is a absolutely chaste young woman pure ?
@@63grandsport11 you mean *young girl*, woman indicates above 18 years of age in modern linguistics. She was 12 to 15 years old when she was married off and impregnated. I guess the Ibrahamic god likes'em young.
@@ryanshannon6963 This was pretty common at the time and gets very disturbing when God commanded his children to slaughter everyone of a particular tribe/nation *except* the young girls. Those he commanded be made into sex slaves (so much for all loving.)
This is my favorite UA-cam podcast. Thank you!
My guess is a translation error. But I like to think of an alternative idea; Mary runs to Joseph in a panic; "Joseph! Joseph! I'm pregnant! But we're not married, they'll stone me to death! What will we do?" Joseph considers for a moment, then says, "Don't worry love, I've got a BRILLIANT idea..."
Hey Bart! love the podcast. Btw, the word for cousin is ξάδερφος, not ανηψιός which means nephew.
Some lizards and worms have REAL virgin birth. The reason Christians WANTED a VERSION virgin birth, it was because PAGANS had their own version of virgin birth FIRST. In other words, "Christians" needed to manipulate pagans to convert to their religion - a "better" religion. EVERYTHING in Christianity IS plagiarized from several Pagan religions.
The real issue here is faith. Do you find YOUR religion to fulfill your spiritual needs? GREAT!!! Carry on and STOP criticizing and judging other belief systems PERIOD FULL STOP
Shut-up suck -up.
The big confusion here, is that in that day, if a man was killed in battle, or abandoned his wife, or died, the "Temple" would hold a "service" that declared the woman a "virgin". This would serve to announce that she was socially and legally available to remarry. (not really what we perceive as a "virgin")
I remember that Jerome Murphy O'Connor in talking about Jesus's "Brothers" referred to a third possibility to the two mentioned by Dr Ehrman and that is that it was possible that Joseph was a bigamist. He indicated that Jewish Law had no problem with a man having more than one living wife and also, while bigamy was rare in the early first century, it did occur...
Supposedly, Joseph was married before Mary and his wife had children, but she died. Mary was his second wife.
Tangent, but Megan's glasses are absolutely fantastic, and I need a pair like that!
"Who Says Mary Was a Virgin?"
The Bible.
That was a mis-translation. The correct translation is maiden not necessarily a Virginia. Try to keep up.
@@newnoggin2 "Almah" (maiden) is not used to describe married women in Aramaic.
Besides, she asked how could she be pregnant when she was a virgin so there's that and Mary's words are scripture.
@@newnoggin2It's still the accurate answer to the question. It's clearly in the Bible in every English translation I'm aware of. If it's a mis translation as you say, then that's a whole other discussion. But it's plainly there.
two of the 4 gospels say it and not once does Paul or Jesus mention it. There is no evidence anything like that ever happened. John says Jesus was born of a woman. that is very odd.
@@Michael-le5ph so we are now believing in 90% of the Bible? Not me. 100% or nothing!
Mother Angelica answered this on screen as she popped another piece of candy in her mouth, "She is an honorary virgin."
Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Hebrews 1:11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Benjamin Franklin, "The way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason."
Faith has less efficacy than a lottery ticket.
It has always been strange and fascinating to me how they accidentally or deliberately keep silent about the fact that Gabriel sneaked into the girl's room at night and told her a fairy tale and she became pregnant.
The term I recall is Immaculate Conception --- hope this little message is helpful.
Bart D. Ehrman's teachings pushed me into the dark night of the soul and spiritual awakening. Been researching, learning, and growing spiritually ever since. Much respect for the person.
You shouldn't be in the dark for ever. Have you researched Islam ? It definitely will be your next destination
ua-cam.com/video/VsFKwbYpl38/v-deo.htmlsi=lW_v9_An-jaetxL_
@@abdulrazarc532 I took a course in comparative religion. I understand the basic tenets of Islam. Very intrigued by the pilgrimage to Meca.
I enjoyed Buddhism as well.
My attention was captivated by the levels of consciousness and enlightenment. Next by Reiki and Kundalini awakening.
This led me to New Age philosophy, unity consciousness, and ascension of the soul.
Right now I am into co-creator through oneness with the One God/Devine Source.
Check out any show on this channel with a Rabbi who can recite the New Testament for the absolute most comprehensive Biblical context (and correction) for all kinds of issues in it: ua-cam.com/video/gBiKwUEolPw/v-deo.htmlsi=fEOqFns1Xqd2_hav
Jesus said, You must be born again. John 3:3-8. "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Why? "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter i to the kingdom of God.
That whjch is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit." Verses 3:5-6.
Born again is also called regeneration. Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary online.
'Regeneration means; Reproduction, the act of producing anew. In theology, New birth by the grace of God, that change by which the will and natural enmity of man to God and his law are subdued, and a principle of supreme
love to God and his law, or holy affections, are implanted in the heart.'
Humbling isn't it. We cannot do that on our own, even with tons and tons of repenting God.
Jesus said, My words are spirit and life." John 6:63. We cannot walk by the Spirit when we walk by our own understanding, called sin.
Ask God to send the Holy Ghost, Luke 11:13. He will bring your sins to mind. As he does ask Jesus to forgive you. This will be painful, pride hates it!
When you see your desperate need, call out to Jesus to see save you. He came to save sinners.
Then do as the risen Jesus commanded, be baptized. Matthew 28:18-20. Think on Mark 1:1-5, 16:16, John 3:3-8, 2 Peter 3:9, Romans 6:3-11, 1 Corinthians 12:13 and Colossians 2:6-15.
It's hilarious that Jesus's parents didn't notice him missing until the third day. My head canon is that he wanted to go to the temple, his parents said no, so he dressed up a pillow in his spare clothes and had it ride in the caravan so he could go to the temple and bother the Rabbis about the law.
"Your child seems unusual. He hasn't moved in over two days."
"Yeah he's already turned clay into live sparrows and cast withering curses and stuff like that. He's probably just in some kind of a trance using his powers somehow."
"Dude that's a pillow."
"Crap. He's at the temple."
Oh, no! Jesus turned himself into a pillow!
@@--..-...-..-.--.... It's a Miracle!
@@realkarfixer8208just imagine, in another 1,000 years the allegory of the pillow will be dogma in Christendom…
This was so good! 🤣
😊😊😊
What is even more hilarious is that he spent the three days debating with the priestly scholars. And debated well enough to keep their attention for three days. And no Christian wonders why this proof of his ability is not recorded, but the sperm count at his conception was (it was zero.)
Heck, every mom was a virgin back then. That’s the best excuse ever come up with by a teenaged girl who gets knocked up. Mom, God did it.
Are ypu feeling alright, do you have an,idea,l at all,what the bible is and it's,message and how it's constructed, to say such redicoulous statements
@@tasmarkou5681 I’ve read the Bible in Greek, Latin, the 30+ volume of the Anchor Bible, KJV, and Douay Rheims. It was a joke. There were a multitude of virgin births through the ancient world. Mithras was a virgin birth. Krishna was a virgin birth. Heck, Augustus was conceived when his mother slept in a temple and Jupiter entered her as a snake. It’s hard to take it very seriously.
@@nbenefiel you're a xonplete joke
@@tasmarkou5681your faith based belief in a man made god makes you blind to see reality. You should watch Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins videos or read their books. You would learn a lot about the nonsensical bible.
Really enjoy Bart Ehrman's lectures, especially that laugh of his after he cast a fly into the dead SEE!
I can explain to you the reason or reasons of the whole confusion about the interpretations of the bible from the Greek to the English language very easily maybe on a live stream and here is a little example..there are a lot of sentences in the Greek language that is similar to the Tamarian language i can give you a Hint example if you are interested or if you find this an interesting topic to bring up in a future important discussion.
I found this amusing: At 14:46 Bart uses the word 'maiden' to clearly just mean young woman in a neutral sense, contrasting it with 'parthenos' which meant young woman at one point in Ancient Greek but then more unambiguously came to mean 'virgin'. But 'maiden,' ironically, used to unambiguously mean virgin, but now is more neutral, the exact opposite semantic trajectory of 'parthenos'!
And as I always mention when this comes up, the German word for virgin, "Jungfrau", is literally "jung" (young) + "Frau" (woman). This really shows how, when these words formed, societies thought about women.
Is the word _parthenos_ related to the Parthenon?
@@BenjWarrant "temple of the virgin goddess"
how does the english word maiden have anything to do with the hebrew text he was speaking of
@@BenjWarrant Exactly.
The Patron Goddess of Athens, to whom The Parthenon was dedicated was Pallas Athena also known as Athena Parthenos, because she was a Virgin Goddess.
A woman tells her husband shes pregnant but its not his, 😮instant stoning, even today in some countrys.
I found this lecture very interesting. I'm not a Christian, but have been always been interested in how Christianity was formed and developed. Thank you
Listen to jay dyer for christian history, was born baptist then was catholic 10 years now orthodox
@@tasmarkou5681 thank you
Re cousin and brother in Greek.
Respectfully, Bart, the word you stated at 30:19 as anepsios (ανιψιός) means nephew, not cousin. (ανιψιός/nephew- ανιψιά/niece)
Cousin is ξάδερφος from αδερφός/brother.
Feminine form ξαδέρφη from αδερφή/sister
34:00 😂 Things you are told in church, but don't really think about.
Thankfully, there are people who do think about it.
Every time I come across information like this I ask myself, “How many misconceptions can I take but retain my faith?” Or also “Does this directly undermine my faith?” Because honestly, I’m not going going to just stand here with my blood over something I was taught…but also I’m not letting it go without having studied it rigorously..
You can argue over whether the original prophesy in Isaiah was meant to be taken as rectilinear. But at the end of the day it doesn’t matter. That’s because it could still be quoted in the sense of being a typological fulfillment in Jesus.
As a typological fulfillment it works like this. Anyone can take a passage out its native habitat and describe it as being fulfilled. For example, a Christian could quote a passage out of its native context “I have plans for you to give you a future & a hope” and say that’s a passage that was fulfilled for them.
The first order question is whether the reporting of Jesus promising the gift of recall and being guided into all truth (John 14:26; 16:13) was likely an accurate reflection. If so, then Jesus’ resurrection provides an epistemic routing for the acceptance of the rest of the Gospel accounts, such as the birth narratives, being totally accurate in its reporting.
The time to believe something is after it is supported by evidence.
Faith is the lowest order of cognition
See Wittgenstein's "Culture and Value".
Also new translation of Tolstoy "Gospel in Brief."
An unmarried woman declared "virtuous" under Davidic Law in the eyes of God= Virgin
I think the theory set out by robert graves in 'King Jesus' is most fascinating.
❤ Thank you Bart. I've been an agnostic atheist since the age of twenty when my brother read passages from the Torah to me.
But I didn't realize I was an agonist atheist until I heard you describe yourself as one. So thanks for showing us the truth. ❤
Merry Christmas 🎄
agonist?
is that typo of agnostic atheist, or is there some distinction between agonist atheist vs agnostic atheist?
You can't be an agnostic atheist. You are either an agnostic ('you don't know if there is a god') or atheist ('you are sure there isn't a god').
"Everyone is agnostic; no one knows if God really exists. Then, you can choose to believe it or not, meaning you can be an atheist or a theist agnostic
@@Midrac61 I believe in God but not the Bible
@@herminepursch2470so you are a Deist
8:05 In order for Jesus to be Son of God, Mary would logically have to miraculously conceive via the Holy Spirit; otherwise, Jesus would be merely a man, albeit the wisest among humankind. His divinity is the whole point and key to the salvific mission of Yeshua. He is the God/Man who takes his human nature from his mother, hence the importance of the Virgin Birth.
*From "The Gospel of Thomas" in verse 101, Quote;*
*For My mother ( Earthly Mother ) gave Me FALSEHOOD, but My TRUE Mother ( BARBELO ) gave Me LIFE."*
OH MY GOODNESS! What else do we not know? 😢
I think all of the viewers would like to see at least a short segment on what Megan believes & why. 🙂
I read (I forget where) that the marriage customs in Palestine at that time often happened in two phases - first a firm betrothal ceremony, followed only many years later by a completion of the marriage rites. The delay between was often a decade or longer and if a child were conceived during this interval it was customary to refer to them as "virgin births". I still agree that Matthew's interpretation is motivated by the need to fulfill Isaiah's prophecies, it just lends itself to that reinterpretation.
Israel not "Palestine"
@@jersmith1486 The whole region was never called "Israel". This is a modern invention. The Romans called it Palaestina or Syria Palaestina. The word can be traced to the first Philistine state in 1200BC (if not earlier). Besides, this extended period of 'semi-marriage' was probably common to the whole region.
@kubhlaikhan2015 the Romans (Emperor Hadrian) started calling it Philistine to piss off the jews. It was the kingdoms of Israel and Judah for centuries. Fun fact: philistine means; invader, trespasser, occupier.
@@kubhlaikhan2015 Stop being sly and disingenuous .there was no palestine when Jesus was born. it was Judea and Samaria.,along with other towns .
You need a history book @@balafama2120 . Fortunately Roman records are very extensive and reliable - it was always called Palestine.
Bart, the Bible, the Biblical Hebrew and the Greek translation says Mary was a virgin.
Genuinely interested to find out what are your credentials to contradict a New Testament scholar? Sincere question.
sorry. the biblical Hebrew does NOT say virgin at all and in it's exact context it's talking about a woman at the time. Jesus name isnt. Emmanuel-ever. specifically, they were told to name Him Jesus, never Emmanuel, and no, emmanuel is not some "type" of Jesus. Not once in any gospel or in Paul's letters, is Jesus ever referred to as Emmanuel or God with us.
@@Michael-le5ph the Biblical Hebrew does say virgin. Are you going by the Alexandrian Hebrew texts. Because the true Hebrew text does say virgin.
@@alanhales6369 This is interesting. Why most people bring up the whole ´´it was a mistranslation from hebrew´´ argument then? Are they referring to a different hebrew source text?
@@user-xk8tt2rz3r The true Hebrew has Vigin.
At 30:40 Professor Ehrman says that the Greek word for cousin is anipsios as oppoed to adelfos (brother). But anipsios means nephew, not cousin. The Greek word for cousin i esadelfos which ounds very much like adelfos.
His enemies accused him as being demonized and a heretic. But not once was the moral reputation of his mother ever questioned by his enemies.
The claim that Mary was a perpetual virgin, equates marital s3x to filth & authorized many a wife to "cut her husband off" because she considered herself a devout woman of God. 😲😲😲
(This applied at least in the 1950s-60's.
My mother did that.)
It would have been scripturally sinful to renege on marital duties, anyway.
Do you know why?
Beyond the facts that Mary was of no consequence to his critics, nor was it likely Jesus was conceived out of wedlock, his critics were more likely interested that nothing good came from Bethlehem.
It was questioned:
And mention, [O Muḥammad], in the Book [the story of] Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place toward the east.
And she took, in seclusion from them, a screen. Then We sent to her Our Angel [i.e., Gabriel], and he represented himself to her as a well-proportioned man.
She said, "Indeed, I seek refuge in the Most Merciful from you, [so leave me], if you should be fearing of Allāh."
He said, "I am only the messenger of your Lord to give you [news of] a pure boy [i.e., son]."
She said, "How can I have a boy while no man has touched me and I have not been unchaste?"
He said, "Thus [it will be]; your Lord says, 'It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter [already] decreed.'"
So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a remote place.
And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said, "Oh, I wish I had died before this and was in oblivion, forgotten."
But he1 called her from below her, "Do not grieve; your Lord has provided beneath you a stream.
And shake toward you the trunk of the palm tree; it will drop upon you ripe, fresh dates.
So eat and drink and be contented. And if you see from among humanity anyone, say, 'Indeed, I have vowed to the Most Merciful abstention, so I will not speak today to [any] man.'"
Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have certainly done a thing unprecedented.
O sister [i.e., descendant] of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste."
So she pointed to him. They said, "How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?"
[Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allāh. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.
And He has made me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon me prayer and zakāh as long as I remain alive
And [made me] dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me a wretched tyrant.
And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive."
That is Jesus, the son of Mary - the word of truth about which they are in dispute.
Qur'an 19:16-34
@@user-lk7wk3cd8e
The chastity of his mother was questioned but the answer was irrefutable.
This session is a bit Monty Pythonesque, from the Life of Brian. Mary is quite disgusted to get a question from the crowd, “are you a Virgin?” Here people are still talking about this. Cheers
And she was impregnated by a Roman? Naughtius Maximus? :P
You meant Brian's mom, not Jesus' mom.
Well, people thought that Brian, was the Messiah, so in the general confusion the mob was just asking the wrong woman (ie Brian’s Mom), who they thought to be Mary, but who was not, whether she was actually a Virgin. A simple mistake based on erroneous identity of the actual Messiah. Cheers
This was a good episode.
Believing that being a good person and trying to be a better person is faith enough. The church brought many good rules to chaos. Believing the stories behind it shouldn’t affect being a good person. Believe don’t believe just be good.
"Who Says Mary Was a Virgin?" - The promotion department of THE BUSINESS MODEL CHRISTIANITY says so.
In greco-roman mythology, the birth of Perseus and Romulus & Remus is *very* similar to a virgin birth.
Just saying.
I’ve been discounstructing for a few months, and still go to church because my husband is in the worship team so i go mainly to support him so hes not alone, but the preaching was literally about Jesus’ virgin birth and I questioned it all! Like how do we know it wasn’t a teenage pregnancy and it was easy for Mary to makeup something up? Cuz apparently she must’ve been around 13-15 when she became pregnant so it makes me think was it truly the holy spirit or they didnt want to be stoned to death if anyone found out Mary was pregnant without being married yet 🙈
makes an excellen point. Bart doesn't understand this.
@@lukeyznaga7627 Surely he knows that the religion provides a way of 'legitimizing' teenage pregnancy - ? (-with the whole "let he who is not guilty . . ." thing.)
Christianity shows that the idea of 'honor killings' is *BARBARIC!*
That's more likely than an actual virgin birth, but it's far more likely still that the entire virgin birth idea was invented by Luke/Matthew for theological/prophetic reasons decades after Jesus's death, rather than being used by a teenage Mary to explain an unmarried pregnancy
thats not important. there are many bigger reasons why the bible is not completely good, accurate or representative what a very powerful loving god SHOULD look like or act like.@@manifold1476
@@lukeyznaga7627 "Bart doesn't understand this"? Are you kidding - he is a scholar who has studied this for years!!! By the way - I've read that once a couple was engaged to marry it didn't matter if the woman got pregnant since being "betrothed" was, in those days... in that area and that religion... considered to be already married.
Oh gosh, I didn't understand the format till I realised that it was a proxy 'Bart on Bart' -cast.
You naughty pridester you, Bart.😁
Not to split hair here but in modern greek the word for cousin is not "anypsios" which means the male child of one's sibling as you suggested Dr Ehrman but rather "ksadelphos". Of course ksaderfos does sound like "adelphos" but not quite. In both cases though your argument stands that there are different words for it. :)
Thank you for clarifying this. I found it interesting. So, the male child of one's sibling is what we would call a nephew, right? But I suppose a nephew in our English could also mean something else, like the male child of a spouse's sibling, so it would not be an exact equivalent with our word nephew. By the way, it was taught to me old-school that one may be a sibling, but one does not have a sibling. A sibling is a child of the same parent, so if I have a sibling it would mean I have a child from the same parent, but that doesn't make any sense.
Could it be different in Koine greek? Just asking because I saw someone else pointing out the same thing.
It might be worth noting that the Greek word for "brother" "Adelphos" literally means "From the Same Womb." Originally it only referred to siblings who shared the same mother, but it had come to be used more loosely to include half siblings on the father's side by the time of Plato.
In the Epistle is also used to describe comrades or fellow travellers... It is fascinating how word usage changes ...
It might be worth noting that no one important takes the literal bible seriously. It might also be worth noting that the bible written in 1611 did not have access to the original source material. Because it didnt exist.
@@protochris I gather that is so ... The difference is understood by context and cultural understanding. Much of which is lost in time - so the Greek text leaves a degree on uncertainty which was not transposed in Latin translation. This is the same as Jospeh being a carpenter... He may have but the expression can describe other crafts. So in English the more correct phrase would be possibly or likely to be a carpenter or sibling ... But we can not be certain as Professor E infers
@@zapkvr
RE: . . . the bible written in 1611 . . . .
I have the sense you have no clue which bible this is given how you wrote this . . . Goodness, it's the King James Version (KJV)--easy to look up and so using three words for five.
The KJV relied on the Masoretic Texts for the OT,; Erasmus's Textus Receptus for the NT and the Septuagint for the Apocrypha / Deuterocanonical books as the scholars involved were updating the Bishops' Bible as the KJV's basic template, but with the Bishops Bible itself an updating of the Great Bible (1539), which was based on the Matthew's Bible (1537), which was a revision of Coverdale's first Bible and itself going back to Tyndale's first English translations of the Bible (1535).
The translation teams noted (KJV, 1st ed.) that they were not out to make a new translation "but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principal good one."
@@protochrisI think I recall Dale Allison theorizing that Joseph may have been a stone mason. Can't remember why though.
In a college art history class the teacher was asking about immaculate conception and asked “who else was immaculately conceived?” and she got silence. And she says “oH for goodness sake’s class. THiS is YOUR own Religion!” Well she was in swMissouri so she was mostly correct. But I mumbled outloud “No. It’s not.” She looked my way in the dim darkened room. So I said it Louder. “I don’t have a clue. It’s NOT MY religion. at all.” then she proceeded to tell us Mary’s mother was granted the status of immaculate conception as well. Then she said “Well the Catholics made her one.” How can you expect us to know this if we aren’t Catholic or even Christian?” LOL! This was my first encounter with this professor but not even close to my last. I had read the Bible and the Book of mormon but hadn’t been to a church visit in years. Was not a member, not did I expect to be quizzed about religion in a college art class. Turned out that I knew the biblical stuff more than all but one person in that class. The old masters paintings were mostly religious subjects of course.
Props to you for managing to slog through the Book of Mormon. I quite quickly got to the point where I was going to buy a gun and shoot myself if I had to read '...and it came to pass...' one more time.
It's like someone who heard Bible readings in church but wasn't really paying attention tried to make a spoof of it for his own religion. Fancy that.
Great dialog. Learned some interesting point, as usual! And Megan has a very affectionate mackerel tabby!
I remember a gnostic priest I knew saying that it wasn't Mary, the mother of Jesus who gave the virgin birth, but Jesus's grandmother who was also Mary, & this ended up with Jesus being born without sin or free from original sin.
I'm don't know if there's any support for this in the scholarship.
credit to megan for hearing so much ancient misogyny while keeping a straight face :3
yep and today women are liberated and we live in a deep shit world!!
@@Mrfrancis1971 Yeah well you can blame conservatives like reagan and thatcher and kissinger for that. Along with fallwell and oral roberts.
@@Mrfrancis1971 Thank goodness for modern times. If it weren't for the separation of Church and State, women would be back where the church wanted them as uneducated, submissive servants for their menfolk.
Maybe it's because megan knows what we all know. In those times there was no such cultural thing as mysogyny. This was normal for those times.
In about 1972 a new translation of the Bible was released. The issuers had gone back to the earliest written texts, and found the descriptive adjective for the mother of Jesus was not ‘virgin’, but ‘young woman’. This was during the furor concerning Nixon’s VP. The publication knocked the VP off the news, the new Bible was rapidly withdrawn from sale.
The suggestion concerningYahweh ‘passing over’ Mary rather sounds like Zeus’ stunts that made Hera so bad-tempered
Obviously some parts of the Bible are open to interpretation, that's what the gospel writers intended.
It's of the utmost importance though, that you only ever interpret them with the advanced permission and approval of the church. Gods words aren't just for anybody, after all.
@@SineN0mine3something as fundamental as a virgin birth, was not to be left open for interpretations.
@@SineN0mine3 - which church?
At the Council of Nicaea, Jesus’s divinity came to a vote. He placed as ‘divine’ by two votes. Had The Church gone two human votes the other way, theology would be very different.
The term applied is Immaculate Conception ---- consult your local R C Theologian for a more informed explanation on the event.
Who says Mary was a virgin?
The Bible, the written Word of God, which is Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.
May you both be saved.
Much ❤️
Bart's gonna get some hate mail for this one
Seems to me that people are good at hate mail
Whoa! Looking forward to the book on the ethics of Jesus, which I believe has been too long ignored in detail, at least in religion and tradition.
That would be a sad episode: seems a nasty piece of work.
the key question is, was Isaiah 7:14 actually "mistranslated" from Hebrew to Greek, or, was it *properly* translated since perhaps the Greek writers of that time knew the original Hebrew context that was implied? Matthew didn't translate the OT himself, others did before him, so is Bart implying that the writers before Matthew were also illiterate or inaccurate with their portrayal of the Hebrew scriptures?
There are several translation errors in the Septuagint. For example: Moses comes down with Sinai with horns (see Michelangelo’s statue of Moses), it was supposed to be a halo or glow surrounding him. As well parting the Red Sea and the Reed Sea. Where it doesn’t matter because it doesn’t change the meaning is the parable about “the camel through the eye of a needle”, it is discussed that the Greek word for hawser (thick ropes) was probably meant there. A camel or a hawser would either be too large to through a needle’s eye.
@@michaeltelson9798 yeah I heard about the needle's eye error, but those aren't errors that change the meaning of the text, that's merely a "non-meaningful variant".
Could there have been a requirement that Jesus should be free of original (or inherited) sin?
The idea from the proto-Gospel of Mary still having her hymen, not only after getting pregnant with Jesus, but after giving birth to him is pretty wild.
I can grasp how people loosely connected with.reality might believe in an immaculate conception, but I can’t get my head around an immaculate birth. How did Jesus emerge from Mary? If he just appeared, then why bother with the pregnancy at all? Why does Ehrman just skip over this huge difficulty?
Anatomy must not have been a strong point of the author.
The magical storytelling and wishful thinking of ignorant pre-science tribalist men desperate to fashion a moral narrative for times when life was nasty, brutal and short and nights were long, dark and scary -- the childhood of Man.
Seriously I think wild isn't the right word....nonsensical is a better word.
@@jeffryphillipsburns I'd guess that the claim that Mary had an intact hymen was not from a canonical source, and it's so absurd that Professor Erhman didn't need to belabor the point.
The Bible says... God says!
So? Who would have know what God actually said years after the events? I can tell you God SAYS something to me today. Would you believe it?
The New Testament says that Jesus was born of a virgin which is impossible and the Old Testament says that Sarah gave birth to Issac in 90 yrs of age.
If Christianity is not true then Judaism is not true as well.
Prof. of the Old Testament Brevard S. Childs states that, apart from one controversial reference (Proverbs 30:19), all the occasions of almah do actually appear to denote virgins, but while it is very unlikely that a married woman would be referred to as an almah yet translating it as virgin focuses too much on virginity versus sexual maturity. It occurs nine times in the Hebrew Bible and in every usage the word is either used for a woman who is indicated to be a virgin or as indeterminate.
quick input @ 15:55 ... but Matthew is also implying Jesus' divinity as well by alluding to Micah 5:2 which says "out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, *whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”* - Keywords: *from ancient times,* therefore this is not only predicting Yeshua as a divine being who already existed in ancient times, but also the fact that he's born as a human in Bethleham ...
I'm not a religious guy, but I read the book three times a long time ago and no matter if he ever existed according to the book he was a decent human being.
Yes, especially in revelations
Working in Bangladesh in the late 1980s I read a newspaper story headined "Virgin mother and her undesirable child killed". An English speaking Bengali explained that this just meant 'unmarried mother and her bastard killed'. Even in English "Virgin" needn't mean Virgin.
Great thanks, to Dr Bart Ehrman's talk on the Vergin birth. One question, why in the bible there is emphasis on Joseph's linage, yet so much emphasis on the
virgin birth. On a seperate topic I suggest, you look at tbe diversity of tbe people Jesus interacts with. And why this has failed to influence most Christian churches to be tolerant and inclusive .
There's always talk about Mary but what about Joseph? The last I know of him is in Luke 2:41-48 when he and Mary find Jesus in the Temple reading Isaiah. Do any of the non-canonical writings mention Joseph later?
I assume at some point he told Mary he was going to Walgreen's for some smokes and just never came back. What's the general thinking, though?
He's not mentioned after Jesus's childhood in the Gospels. Not at all in Mark. I think church tradition holds that he was dead and Mary a widow by the time Jesus starts his ministry.
Mary seems to have been a real person the Disciples knew. If her husband was long dead, they wouldn't have known him.
@@jeffmacdonald9863 Maybe a carpentry accident? According to OSHA, falls account for more than a third of all construction worker fatalities.
Electrocution: Construction workers can be exposed to lethal amounts of electricity from power lines, exposed wires and unfinished electrical systems.
Did he just do new carpentry or did he ever refinish things? Exposure to toxic chemicals can cause serious or fatal injuries.
After all, he was the sole supporter of Mary; Jesus; James, Joses (a form of Joseph), Judas and Simon (Mark 6:3); Mary (Gospel of Philip); and, Salome (Gospel of James). That's a very large family to take care of since Mary didn't work outside the home.
We need to find some record of Joseph. He deserves as much.
The last mention of Joseph was when Jesus was 12 years old. When Jesus performed his first miracle, turning water into wine, there was no mention of Joseph-then or on any subsequent occasion. When on the torture stake, Jesus entrusted Mary to the care of the apostle John, which Jesus would not likely have done had Joseph still been alive.-John 19:26, 27.
The Proto-Gospel of James features several stories about St. Joseph but I don't recall any of them being set in the time of Jesus' public ministry.
What is the proto gospel??
Where did Luke get all the information about the conception and birth of Jesus? - Luke interviewed Mary, sometime around A.D.55, and asked her about what had happened.
Show any ancient document where Mary is interviewed by Luke. We don't even know if Luke is the actual Author.
I am protestant and have been in the baptist and holiness church. I have never seen any protestant that believes in the perpetual virginity. That’s taught in Catholic churches.
Protestant preachers stay far far away from that topic. They all know about this from seminary, unless they hate any education, which is spoken of a LOT in the pentecostal movements, but they all have heard this and many other contradictions, they choose not to preach about any of that.
@@Michael-le5ph “contradictions”? That’s not even in the bible.
The whole point is that if Jesus isn't born of some miraculous "Virgin" mother by a godly spirit, then Jesus just becomes a regular-ass guy that says he's the next big thing on campus. The entire foundation laid by thousands of years of religious organization is nearly destroyed. The entire story just becomes another day in ancient times of some guy thinking he's an enlightened one that's frustrated by modern (at that time) theocrats and political hierarchy. There's clearly nothing holy or special about that. It quickly descends into "some guy's philosophy" rather than "godly truth".
Exactly correct. And what you just described in your comment makes much more rational and reasonable sense than does some sort of "Immaculate Conception" mumbo jumbo.
Great show! Thank you! I always wondered, if Jesus was born of Mary and god, then WHY was Joseph's lineage so important that they had to mention it twice(AND they contradict each other), and why did Mary and Joseph have to be related if god was the dad? Joseph wouldn't have given any DNA... *sometimes I struggle with thinking due to being raised in all this since birth, christianity did NOT help to develop my brain. For me, it made my thinking irrational. Still working on that, so I hope this made sense =)