Mini V12 Generator
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- Опубліковано 26 лис 2023
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DSF-V12 Engine Specs:
Dimension: 216 (L) x 161 (W) x 159 (H) mm
Weight: 4.5kg
Type: Single Over Head Cam, 24 Valves, four stroke
Fuel: Gasoline
Stroke: 18mm
Bore: 16.68mm
Compression Ratio: 9.5
Displacement: 49.89CC
Rev Speed: 2000~12000rpm
Spark Plugs: Iridium Spark Plugs
Cooling: Water Cooling & Dry Sleeve, Gear Water Pump
Lubrication: Splash Oiling with oil passage
Starter: Brushless Start Motor
Piston: Aluminum Alloy, Dual Ring
Ring: 1 × Ductile Ring & 1 × Fluorine Rubber Ring
Firing Order: 1-9-4-11-2-7-6-10-3-8-5-12
Crankshaft & Camshaft: One-Piece, Alloy Steel, Fully Supported
Carburetor: Big Dint, four stroke type
Others: reserved ports for upgrading to independent lubrication
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A small arduino circuit that would monitor the rectifier output voltage (~40v) and use a servo to actuate the throttle to automatically compensate for load.
Big ol smoothing capacitor will help with those.@@maxmaix
Wouldn't even really need an arduino to accomplish it. Could be done with a fairly simple op-amp circuit.
wouldn't even need an op-amp, on old generators they do it with some metal balls spinning around to maintain constant RPM under load
A small arduino circuit that would try and maintain a steady engine RPM instead, it must have a power band. Needs dyno testing :)
Power band rpm when under load, sure. But when the load is low (like < 100 watts), something more towards idle is probably better for fuel efficiency. @@matthewspeller
Just goes to show you the incredible time and effort taken to design generators, and then they have to make them look like a package, and then generally reliable for the average not intelligent person to neglect. Cheers man this is an incredible feat.
They also have to keep 50/60Hz in the output without an inverter, so the engine speed has to be perfect for the specific load
@@dantevito1193correct. I manufacture and repair diesel generators. Depending on the generator design you have to hold 1800 or 3600 rpm to achieve a 60hz output.
It's not that complex, most generators now are made in a way that the rotor of a generator is bolted on one side to the engine via flex plate, basically sheet of metal to transfer rotational force but allow for any inprefections, the other side uses deep groove ball bearing like SKF 6309 most commonly
This allows to you to use any variety of engine generator options without much modifications.
Motorcycle voltage regulators usually work by shorting phases together when there is no 12V load so this is why your engine was loaded. If you want to go that way you may try using a so called series regulator that acts as a line switch instead but they are very expensive.
Also it's better if you avoid running the regulator without a battery connected
Those will still be much less efficient than a proper "buck converter". His current setup is probably the most efficient, although maybe he should switch to 24v instead of 12.
Year ago car charging systems worked that way
He is right. These regulators are not up for this task. If you want to use a bldc, you need a switching back to step it down to 12v dc. You had an unregulated pulsating voltage, in high frequency, coming out of your diode bridge. You fried the inverters with that pulsated dc. I dunno if anyone sells this. For a hardware developer is a walk-in the park
@@wodsonhelenosay nothing about a heat shield for the motor/generator. Needs a vfd for starter and delete original
Some 'dustbin' size Caps would help !!@@wodsonheleno
you can get fiberglass based muffler packing material that should be a lot safer to use than steel wool. if the timing ever gets off and you backfire and shoot flames into that muffler, you could have a pretty high temp fire on your hands
Put a small 12V battery between the DC-DC converter and inverter. It acts as a capacitor and will both smooth the load on the motor and the voltage out to the inverter
Wouldn't something like 1 farad capacitor be better and simpler?
@@Ziegeri it would probably also work but 1 farad is not a lot. It will not be able to provide even a second of power at a 50w load, while a 5Ah motorbike battery is also very simple and will actually be able to power the same load for over 1 hour without the motor running.(power is not interrupted due to a stall)
The capacitor would be better between the rectifier and dc-dc converter I think.
I'm pretty sure you would have 2 entirely different behaviours from the generator, the capacitor would bearly do anything to help the engine and would result in a very "snappy" generator(motor instantly responds to load). While the battery would give it a very sluggish response, the motor would also continue run loaded after a heavy electric load was removed due to it charging up the battery.
I would try both for fun
@@kissa02 Alright, I am no electrician, just thought it could be enough to smoothen the drops and peaks, and be smaller, lighter and more simple than battery, since I thought you meant lipo battery.
But yeah basic lead battery should be quite simple, don't know if they need any special charging circuitry to not fuck up the battery with constant charge.
@@Ziegerii thought about the battery charge as well, why don’t we use some of the voltage of the battery to help support the load?
Go sodium batteries
Wow that muffler sounds really nice! I mean, it's literally bigger than the engine so it has a big advantage but it totally transformed it
Johnny takes big boy toys to a new level 😂
Great job as always. 👏 I have an idea:
Why not using a small car alternator? It usually comes with a built it voltage regulator, that handles high currents pretty well. I did the same thing with a two stroke chainsaw engine lol. You can also use my arduino based throttle / load controller. It is based on a P.I.D. controller so you can easily set it up for your needs 😉 let me know if you need anything and keep it up!
but wait
they only generate two volts
gonna need alot of those
@@gamervaze1car alternator would generate 12-14 volts...
I recommend adding a capacitor bank (something like 4700 micro farads and 50 volts at least) after the 3 phase rectifier because the output of a rectifier bridge isn't pure DC. It has a ripple, and that may be what is messing with the rest of the circuit. Also, you could get a cheaper DC-DC buck converter that can handle that kind of load (in case you blow it up).
The motorcycle voltage regulator used in your setup is a shunt type which basically shorted the output coil when there is no load. You need a series type voltage regular, for example, SH775A from Shindengen. You also need to connect a battery or a large electrolytic capacitor at the output to work properly.
Really fancy would be using the generator BLDC motor as a starter as well.
The motorcycle "rectifier" is also a regulator utilizing the "shunt-regulator" principle. It shortens the generator coils outputs with thyristors when the voltage exceeds 14V at DC. This is a huge waste of energy, but within a MC engine, the stator coils are oil-cooled and so this cheap works and is used mostly.
That knocking at the end got me laughing lol.
I know its not a the engine breaking but it just reminds me when Jeremy blew up his Maserati V6 on the cheap supercars challenge.
Sad too see it didn't work out. It was the coolest gen set I've seen, rotary (10A), which was half compressor half engine sounded weird but work good. As always love your work
Good work; you clearly put a LOT of work into this. It's about time someone took one of these model engines and actually put it to a practical use.
That's really cool!
hope you get it fixed and running
Most motorcyle regulators work by just shorting the input (3 phase). So they are always drawing full load. Its inefficient, but simple and reliable.
4:43 wow the brushless motor is louder than the exhaust coming out the muffler
awesome!
Cant wait for a V10, it must sound amazing
hearing it on my headphones the exhaust sounds great and in my opinion it actually sounds like a generator
Try adding a capacitor at the rectifiers output, to stabylise the dc voltage.
Should be a pretty beefy one
You could use VESC with your bldc motor as a smart rectifier. With it's LISP scripting it would be quite easy to add servo output for active load control.
This is a stunning build brother!!👍👌
You need a big capacitor efter the rectifier to stabilize the voltage, as it will fluctuate a lot with varying load, which the buck converter probably will struggle a lot with handling without a big capacitor.
Also there are inverters supporting a wider range of inputs, that'll be better suited for your need.
V12 genset, not what I was expecting from a model engine channel!
YAY!! Epic! Love these videos Jonny!!
I swear I said in a previous v4 or v8 video that making one of them a generator would be pretty damn awesome, a V12 genny would be pretty damn glorious to take to the RC park for field charging!
Johnny - did you uncouple the electric motor and see how the engine ran with it uncoupled? The way the inverter crapped out, it may have borq'd the electric motor OR the electric motor borq'd everything?
As for smooth power delivery maybe use a couple 12v UPS batteries in series(they are kinda small, 154mm x 94mm x 65mm) after a capacitor to help smooth out the numbers and handle surges?
BTW I still want your PocketNC man! 🤣
You all should definitely look into building a replica Merlin. Theirs a major fan base for that engine from ww2. Great video as always!
Those old school motorcycle regulators are designed to essentially dissipate excess energy as heat as opposed to reducing the output of the generator so it's essentially running at 100% all the time. More modern MOSFET style regulators are more efficient but neither one of them are really designed to be run without a battery as a buffer so I don't know if either will really work for this application.
that DC to DC converter has written as the 24input and 12v out put. you did input 40v+ from BL motor to that. may be that s why it blew up.
I really enjoyed your video, and it shows just how much work goes into making the generators that can be purchased ready to go. That said, I don't think you were too far off. Regulators as far as I'm aware always need smoothing prior to being fed into anything... I feel that was your problem, as the output converter probably hit a LV state, shut off (VERY briefly) the voltage skyrocketed, and in doing so would have damaged it's own circuitry, and if the output was somehow shorted to the input (MOSFETs probably), would have then blown your 12v inverter.
That is one very expensive yet very cool generator. I would be the king of the camping community if I rolled up with that beauty
I would love to see some decibel ratings on that engine at full throttle. Great job.
Apart from the capacitor you blew up, that thing is hella quite, like more quiet than what we have in stores
Finally a nice sounding model engine :)
An ordinary 12 volt generator from a car is ideal here.
In addition, it is convenient to adjust the load with it. As a load for measuring power, you can take halogen lamps of 12 volts 65 watts (or more powerful).
50cc should be capable of around 1000w fairly easily, given that my 10KW generator has a 408 cc motor. I don't think that little 65 watt light bulb is going to be much of a load. I think he would need a blow dryer or something else where he can increase the load dynamically.
you mean an alternator right?
@@chubbysumo2230, you can use a dozen (or more) of these bulbs, turning them on in parallel. This will be enough to test such a generator under load and measure the output power.
The beauty of it is that the number of parallel light bulbs can be varied as needed. In addition, they operate at low voltage and there is no need to convert electricity to mains (110 or 220 volts)
@@coler154, yes, cars usually have a three-phase alternator. Usually it is combined with a diode bridge in one housing, so the voltage at its output is constant (pulsating, to be more precise)
@@Ilya_GThe three phase raw output of the alternator is immediately converted to DC, which in many cases is also regulated on the alternator itself. The frequency of the DC ripple will change with motor speed, but honestly that might be your best bet, because the regulator will vary the field applied to the alternator to help stabilize it. Plus, you can go full throttle on the V12 and not hurt the alternator especially if you're direct driving it. Even a small alternator for a tractor or something like that is 35 amp or so at 12V so you're highly unlikely to damage it. I think you'll find the limitations of that engine's cooling system and water pump long before the alternator has a problem.
Johnny q followin that torque curve😂👍
This is great!!
Nail down rpm, at all loads.😊
Nice bit of engineering mate engine sounds awesome
Alex, from the UA-cam channel "2 stroke stuffing" took the small four cylinder engine that all the UA-camrs had been receiving, and put it on small bike..... until the crankshaft broke. He has been very busy with his own engine lately, but still, I would love to see something like that with the 50cc v12. I am absolutely sure you could make that happen, I don't know if others would have the ability to adapt the crankshaft the same way you would.
I hadn't seen any of his videos pop up lately and I was trying to remember if I had blocked him or if he had quit making videos. Dude was letting booze ruin his life, got annoying
You’ll need throttle control for the stable voltage, and a capacitor inline before your dc-dc converter. That should normalize the output voltage and add the arduino to control the throttle at a set voltage or current.
Small car alternator from the wreckers. Should be pretty cheap. Then convert to direct drive with that bellows. You may also need an alternator regulator (modern alternators are often controlled by the ECU - so that function needs to be replaced). Then you'll have constant 14.4V output from an alternator that is fit for purpose (Air cooled) and is likely capable of delivering 1kW of constant electrical power (whether or not the engine can supply that much power is another question).
You can try an AC generator and use a PID controller to keep the engine speed stable through a servo connected to the throttle.
Finally a new video. And it looks really cool
YES! I was hoping for this ❤
make another rotary, but this time a 5 rotor, and put it on the same generator rig! Epic work by the way, keep it up we love watching it!
ive always wanted one of those little engines.
Been waiting for another video from you 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
I would go for a car alternator and a pb battery as a buffer and to help regulate the voltage output.
Iv seen full size v12 powered generators in action usually the GM 12V 2 stroke Detroit.
Nice build and all but what use would it be to the buyer ? Compared to a full sign gasoline generator🤔
I’ve never been so early, love your videos!!
The EMD GP20C locomotive and that project in this video has something in common. They both have V12 engines and they both have a generator. I learned a while ago that the amperage decreases while the motor speed increases. Must be efficiency or something.
You can also try a MPPT solar panel controller. It has a wide input voltage range and you can use it to charge a battery. You'll probably need more capacitance after your rectifier as well. Good luck!
That is a great idea since they are designed to handle wider input voltage ranges, but if you use an MPPT controller, make sure it has an input current limit.
you need a big capacitor on the output of the rectifier, its why its unstable
With the muffler exhaust ports facing upwards, are you worried about condensation forming and pooling inside the muffler? Great build btw!
I'd be more worried about the build up of caster oil in the muffler.
Really cool!
Its better to use active rectifiers indeed.
And why not simply use any cheap DC-DC buck converter with wide input voltage range for 12V stabilisation? You'll be able to rev the engine and get all the power.
Congratulations. It would be great if you add add-ons such as engine temperature, tachometer, oil pressure, exhaust temperature.
Needs an RPM governor and a non permanent magnet generator that the excitation current of the rotor can be adjusted like a small car alternator.
I was guessing that the little rectifier couldn't handle 12 cylinders and was sensing out in proper timed pulses. That's a similar kind to the one on my single cylinder bike. And a many v twin. But I doub a like boss hoss is running one of those.
Thanks. Great video, as always.
Just amazing....every time! Thanks
Also I would try an adjustable motorcycle regulator u can dial in the output at stable rpm
Now I'm curious to see how the inline 6 would fair with something similar to this setup.
You should add a bunch of 100+V rated caps on the rectifier output. Then have a small ish 12v battery on the buck converter output. This should make everything work much better
Nice work ! Awesome.
What I would use is a small car or boat alternator, some versions have very efficient voltage regulation and could be easily used with a dc to dc inverter, you could also use a small 12v battery as ballast to help control the instant load on the inverter. My guess is that’s probably what killed your inverter capacitor. Also, consider some sort of governor to keep the engine at a fixed rpm
@JohnnyQ90 the bldc motor/alternator is shortcircuited because it was overheated, meanwhile it probably produced voltage spikes (voltage exceeded 60v) that breaked the dc-dc convertor and the invertor. Your design is almost perfect except the bldc motor needs to be cooled.
So i think you can use a "water cooled bldc motor" as alternator with exactly the same system and it should be fine. Or using a car alternator instead water cooled bldc motor + bridge rectifier + dc/dc convertor would be much easier.
Additionally later maybe you can add an arduino for automatic throttle controlling for constant rpm
if you can get your hands on a small PV inverter you can skip the DC-DC converter. Maybe even one of those big battery bank with a PV input
I think you should check out the output of the rectifier. I don't think the output (sawtooth wave) of that rectifier is suited to directly connect it to your dc/dc convertor. Stabilize it with a battery or a capacitor and you should be good to go. I would also add something to limit current draw on the rectifier or the first DC DC convertor. Usually generators also have a governor to increase throttle as the engine bogs down. They usually rely on the air output of a flywheel with blades on it, or electronic.
Alternator to diode rectifier to Solar charge controller to battery. Inverter from battery. Also might want to consider a governor to increase the torque when the load increases.
Maybe a Buck Converter ? Can go from your output voltage to your desired voltage .. Just a thought !
You engines are getting bigger and bigger xd
You should use a capcitor after the recifier to smooth the voltage and also you should use a fuse directly after the recitfier. Also everytime your engine will increase its throttle a little bit you will get little voltage spikes that will go over 40V without any problem.
awesome job! do you modify the brushless motor? i try same differents methods as you. and with a wind turbine 3 phases charge controller and no good results. i try with a big condensator, and at the end i charge directly a 12v lead battery. and get the power from it.
Non linear load with toom much load at low rpm. Perhaps raising rpms just after first ignition could remedy. More rpm=more power. Or using clutch with proper constant rpm regulator.
The problem its when the engine gains load it tends to lower the rpm. You need something that accelerates the engine as the load is put on it so that the rpm is constant.
In professional groups a pick-up is used that measures the rpm of the crankshaft and a solenoid that actuates the accelerator so that the rpm remains constant.
i havd an old siambreta 150cc twostrokes, that bike use the same exaust sistem for lower the sound
you should hook up an arduino with a current sensor that can manipulate the throttle via servo to increase the rpm under load
Motorcycle voltage regulators are shunt regulators, because the alternator is working like a current source and not like a voltage source. Inside the regulator are thyristors, shorting the phases until end of halfwave.
You should try putting a lithium motorcycle battery into it to smooth the voltage. Some sort of battery that is intended for direct automotive use of constant charging/discharging. I imagine the inverter and the DC to DC converter would be much happier with it though to have it before the DC to DC you would have to ensure you can control the output voltage to keep the battery happy though. On the other hand, a bank of capacitors is probably the most common solution to the problem of voltage smoothing, and depending on the capacitors chosen they wouldn't care quite as much about some voltage change. But they likely wouldn't have quite the added storage capacity built in that a lithium battery would.
Gert great Caps will solve all your problems! Great work....cheers.
Use regular alternator. Kubota alternators are really small. However, the alternator requires a battery to stabilize the voltage and for excitation.
The output (dc side) of the full bridge rectifier needs some beefy capacitors to equalize the voltage spikes and drops. All quality power supplies with fbr have big capacitors!
3 phase doesn't need nearly as much, but yeah
Wow, thank you!
The motorcycle rectifier has a scr which shorts the input to regulate 12v
Try an mppt charge controller with the rectifier or get a 3 phase input controller. Cheers
Most generators run at a set speed about 3000 rpm and contain an AVR to stabilize the load to engine rpm so that it remains constant and hence output stays the same. And as one guy says n Arduino could do that if you the skills to program it. You can buy AVRs but they are set for ac 120v or 230v.
You would probably need a governor module to automatically adjust engine speed according to power demand.
you can use a small 50cc bike rectifier they usally work or scooter
so when a motors output is shorted while operating in the genetator quadrent it moves to the dc braking part of the graph so it is applied a load to the input shaft that is protional to the cemf generated by the short. so its like hutting the gas with your foot on the break
The "generator" required adequate cooling as well. When it is being used as a motor, perhaps it is to drive a propeller or a fan... this partly imposed some cooling airflow. Under current application, without cooling, it'll get damaged easily...
You need to find a way to keep the motor at a constant RPM. If your multimeter does frequency, find the rpm that gives you 60hz on your ac output. (50 if you're in Europe) i believe its around 3600 rpm iirc.
need to figure out a way to have it throttle up after starting like a actual generator so it doesn't bog it down like it is with it only being at idle
Fantastic performance
Using a battery would be much better than without. Also, you could maybe gear the motor down so the voltage isn't as high, or get loads that work with the voltage range you are making.
How about using permanent magnet generator like old tractor or the same thing like robot cantina used in his diesel kubota saturn and honda insight project.
try to put a zener diode in pararel with output from dc diodes
for a stabile 12 volt
How did u simulate the kitty noises in the beginning? Lol. Does kitty appreciate your rc engine addition?
Your asking us your the genius lol I'm impressed with every video you'll fix it
i have a question : and what about putting that 50cc V12 in a little dirt bike ? it sound so much better than most 50cc