This is a big reason why the "Never nerf, only buff" mentality is just wrong; nerfing can actually make characters more exciting to play as if the strong option crowds out other options. In BBTAG, I always thought Yumi's Aerial rave being Burst safe could've been an interesting tool by itself if you had to decide when to use it or when to go for damage. But Aerial rave is also her most damaging combo tool AND takes the enemy to the corner AND can go into super AND you can EX it just for more damage and corner carry. The one move is so overloaded that it turns the whole character into hit-confirm > Aerial rave. I always thought they should buff 214A so that you could use it for more comboes, but then nerf 214B's damage so that you have to decide which one to go for. People usually thought I was crazy to suggest *opening up combo options* for one of the best, most well rounded characters in the game, but I feel like this would've made her more interesting for both sides to play as or against. On another note, I sometimes like to watch for gimmicks that would be hard to balance in Fighting games. Stuff like Asuka's whole deck system, or even Juri's install. Its hard to change them without completely ruining their identity.
I think that's part of the reason why playing weak characters can be enjoyable. Being limited in some way makes for interesting decisionmaking, whereas often top tiers are defined by moves so strong that they flatten decisionmaking in certain aspects of the game. A grappler who has to pick between four or five mediocre tools to help them get in, weighing the advantages and disadvantages of each, can be a lot more fun than playing a top tier rushdown who has a busted divekick to just brute force their way through neutral.
Yeah, Yumi was the character i was thinking of at the end there. I remember when 2.0 dropped and i spent some time trying to find any combo that wasn't just string into rekkas, then messing with her rekka mixups for a while, only to later find match videos of people just doing raw rekka into aerial rave > assist > aerial rave again for 10k damage. Then i was very sad that Makoto never got her rekka mixups back from CF, but Yumi who clearly didn't really need it had something similar.
Great analysis as always. I agree with your point that nerfing strong characters in order to make their toolkit and playstyle more interesting is a good thing. In my opinion, while balancing needs to focus _to some extent_ on making characters equally viable, its greater focus should be on keeping the individuality and differing gameplans of different characters intact rather than giving them tools that weren't originally intended to be part of their kit.
One slight correction that you'll probably not care about but I just feel like pointing it out. Jin's raw launcher in sfxt isn't his hop kick in tekken, its actually his i15 launch called "can cans" in the tekken community. Every kazama has a version of that launcher. Great video btw.
Awesome video! I agree that people love to share their opinions on which characters should be nerfed or buffed, but the task of doing that is actually ridiculously difficult. Also, just have to be a nerd for a second, but you mentioned that Jin's launcher had to be 2 hits to match his hopkick animation from Tekken, but aKsHuAlLy, it's matching his can-cans. Jin also has a hopkick, but there is a slight difference lol.
I modify my MUGEN characters to balance my roster/make characters look more dynamic in action/try and develop my own fighting game system, and I can confirm that balancing is hard.
@@Gokulover69420 I don't know anything about coding in general, so I can't really say, but there is a lot of text and variables involved if you want to start making/modifying characters. I actually have a short video up if you want to see a quick example of what messing around with characters blindly can lead to.
Facts. Especially when exploits or bugs are thrown in and add(or even remove) options that you've balanced the game around. My best balance approach is to give characters similar risk vs reward dynamics and give characters the same amount of VIABLE(ignoring objectively worse choices) choices in most scenarios. This helps avoid most balancing pitfalls, but makes certain archetypes less unique.
One of my ideas when it comes to balancing (especially once i work on platform fighters), is making a balance where everyone’s as close to being as good as Melee Fox.
@@bailujen8052 Good idea. Only problem is that it is too unspecific. Let's try to put this idea to the test. Let's give one character an insane recovery/edge guarding tools but lackluster at most things like Jigglypuff or Numbuh 1(CNPTEXL) then another that is decent at everything. What if players complain the first character is too strong because your game is filled with characters with predictable recoveries like Fox? What if the character is too weak because they are easily reverse edgeguarded by some characters that are top tier/played very often? I used to use this same approach, but the issue is that there is no solution that can make the game not just be balanced... But also feel balanced as well.
Really interesting look into fighting game design philosophy as always my man, and this game seems more and more interesting the more i see it talked about 👍🏻
Thank you as always for waving the banner TF. Raw launchers always come to mind when i see Ken so easily force his way in with crouch MK in SF6 these days. Drive impact and perfect party are nice and all but launcher is the best dopamine trigger…or inhibitor if I’m on the wrong end of it. And yes, Jin’s double launcher is loony! One of the many reasons he’s top tier. I also agree with what you said about something being so good it undermines the rest of the character. TMNT x JL is going to have a rebalance soon and that’s one thing we’re all talking about
I remember watching the killer instinct documentary where an iron galaxy developer talked about how they dealed with Jago. The general consensus among players was that he could heal too easily and that needed to be changed. Iron Galaxy believed those complaints were valid, but the healing was a symptom of an underlying disease. After months of experimentation, they concluded that Jago had no real weaknesses, he was strong anywhere on-screen. To combat this, they nerfed his flying kick to be much less safe overall. After backlash that this wasn't what the fans wanted, Jago suddenly got more bad matchups and everyone stopped complaining. Jin is in a similar position. The disease of the launcher having two opportunities to hit has the symptoms of improved safety, more blockstun, and more combo damage. Instead of nerfing Jin into the ground with reduced damage and less blockstun, a simple solution is to require both hits to connect to actually launch, and only have the second hit do some damage. It forces Jin players to be more careful about when and how to use the launcher while also providing some more mixup opportunities by making the opponent guess if Jin will actually tag out.
I remember picking Jin as my main after only ONE day with the game when it came out. I simply couldn't believe they had given this character so many tools. Such a blast to play if you did vary his moveset for fun. Like trying to come up with fireball traps, or places to throw out his EX parry. But all that ended up being overloooked as well. To watch him being used in tournament, you wouldn't know he had any of that stuff.
Interesting > balanced Is a motto it took a long time for me to come around to but after over a decade of playing these games I realized it’s the interesting moments that actually made me want to keep playing
X Tekken was one of the games that got me to go start playing Tekken games and part of what made me fall in love with Jin as a character he translated to Street Fighter so well and his non moving projectiles were really fun too
I find it funny that Jin's Can Can kicks in SFxT is really good but in Tekken it is strictly a i15 frame launcher punish and if blocked you are eating a high damage combo since it is very launch punishable.
This whole options thing really is important in game with only one character, because now the balance is entirely around what your options are and what works and what doesn't. There needs to be a true rock paper scissors system in a game like that at the bare minimum.
It's hilarious how strong the first 2 moves highlighted are (cam can kicks and mid launching upppercut), as while decent moves with a purpose on their own they weren't/aren't amazing to this degree and neither were definitely safe even in Tekken 7.
Oh man, I just love your videos analyzing this awesome game and would love to see more videos of you just going over the mechanics and underrated tech! This game inspires my own fighting game because of how great it's mechanics are....in theory. I love that this game mixes Street Fighter's 6-button layout and 2D gameplay with Tekken's footsie and whiff punish dynamics and juggle combos. Unfortunately the aforementioned juggle combos left more to be desired. Between the god-awful damage scaling and questionable decisions regarding juggle properties on certain moves, not only do combos not look cool, but also don't feel satisfying, at least to me they don't. Still I absolutely adore how the Tekken cast looks and plays and it makes me happy to see Street Fighter 6 give us combos reminiscent of this game's while also improving on their practicality, flashiness, and combo route variety
Hell yes it is! It never ends! Balance itself is subjective nor does a game need to be “perfect” as some think. Some of the most successful/popular fighters are the furthest thing from balanced(Vs games). The number one focus should always be fun expressive gameplay. Players organically create the meta. I use smash as the perfect example. A game not meant to be competitive, but the community forged the scene. P.S SFXT was fun af, but it’s undermined how strongly people hold on to nostalgia. Many times people can’t enjoy new games because they are always comparing them to another instead of appreciating what that particular game is.
This topic makes me th about the concept of a nerf accidently making a character stronger of vice versa. I’m sure it’s happened a few times but I can’t think of any examples right now
I do agree with you on the end statement, however the devs (ASW specially) need to learn to balance their games better. ASW specifically is very famous for either killing top tier characters with tons of unnecessary nerfs, or making nerfs so insignificant that they change nothing in the end - for those of you that started on Strive, ASW did this with all their prior games, it's not Strive exclusive, although they certainly are doing a better job on Strive than they did on Rev2 or BBCF. A nerf needs to have an impact on how players use that character, not punishing enough that the character gets obliterated to the lowest of tiers (Zato on Rev2, Bedman on Revelator, Taokaka on BBCF) but also not just a "slap on the wrist" too (Johnny on Rev2, Happy Chaos on Strive), and the same goes for buffs but on the other way around. And from my experience with ASW games + my (little) experience with other games, I see that it's very common for devs to miss this point when releasing a new balance patch. I'm not saying they're dumb pigs that don't know what they're doing or anything, I know it can be very hard to balance a character, but sometimes they don't even seem to try. You would expect a team with years of experience in multiple projects to at least understand balancing minimally.
I think what's really impressive about this video is how your opening salvo, on the surface level, seems to be somewhat disconnected by the meat of the video if you can't translate the intent of the meat of the video into other moves/characters/mechanics that would illicit the same feeling of "oh god are you serious about this move/character/mechanic" feeling from Jin's raw launcher lol
Interesting you say that bc I hear the other side far more often, that over-balancing strips characters of their unique quirks. I might even hazard to say Jin's RAW LAUNCH might be a defining character trait?
I agreed myself that literally everything were almost impossible to balance. If it was balanced, then it will be bored faster than it was not at all Its only best to make sure anything not being overboard from minimum standard, neither being underboard as almost entirely worthless
Funny, Jin is suffering the exact same problem in Tekken 8 as of the most recent beta. Jin's varied array of viable lows that each fulfill different purposes are being shunned by the overwhelming power of his new d2.
The core problem is that in any competitive... THING ever, they'll always be those toxic players with a fragile ego who'll always escape goat their losses, which lends to the conversation around the fighting games to degrade pretty quickly Take for example, SF6 THE BEST balanced game in the franchise, yet people are pretending that JP is broken as if any character in that game comes Even close to sf4's arcade yun, vanilla segot, I can go on etc
This is why Tekken (actual Tekken) is balanced differently. It adds more moves for everyone constantly to mitigate this issue. Options / choices (basically).
I'm not sure if they ever fixed it but because of the game's dependency on Games for Windows Live which no longer exists, the game basically crashes on launch. Last time I played it, I had to dig around for a fan patch to eliminate the GFWL check.
There's the PC version with the online patch and there are the console versions, PS3 being active but has more offline input lag compared to the Xbox and PC versions.
It's not that hard to nerf and balance characters obviously they could just just use AI to see just how broken some moves really are but at the end of the day they want you to play the game the way they want you to.
Not really There is no rng in fighting games so even if the game has a tier list you can overcome the flaws of a low tier char like some pros proved it Moba and shooter thats where meta matter far more Notice how moba esport never pick off meta cuz its close to impossible to make them work
All games overly focused on balance are incredibly boring. Patch Teams will never understand the original design of characters as these teams are always of lower quality
The most balanced street fighter game is still Super Turbo because they made so many versions from just SF2 World Warrior to Super Turbo they managed to make everyone competitive at high level.
Don’t care how much sfxtekken is bashed by the fgc. It was the last fighting game Capcom actually tried to show they cared. The backgrounds and characters were great. Look at how boring mvci looks compared to it. From bar UI to graphics and especially those boring as hell backgrounds. Even gummy fighter 6 has boring mobile game meters
to be completely honest, no they aren't. not in 2023 like 30 years into the genre's history. Hell, I'd say fighting games are one of the easiest genres to balance. Trying to balance an RTS is an actual nightmare.
This is the single most frontloaded and lexicon-laden fighting game video I have ever heard... on the most controversial fighting game of all time. If a player mew new to the fighting genre were to watch this video, it would kill their interest in learning any more after just the first 45 seconds in. This is not the gaming industry's problem, it's the FGC's problem.. and the first person to disagree with this statement for any reason proves the point... which is not something I take any pride in saying. If you somehow can't understand what I mean, here's an example: ua-cam.com/video/PnkT6C9Ose8/v-deo.htmlsi=83u6WTyIxdzFhtJ6 Between TF's video and this link above, what do you feel is less confusing to a person who just decides to look at a video without knowing any pre-existing context? Core-A-Gaming did a video in the past that I specifically cited as basic viewing material as a standard for all beginners just to understand anything on an intermediate to advanced level and that statement still stands to thid day simply because anybody who can't comprehend anything of substance in this video can effectively understand more than half of what's being said if they watch that video first. I don't care what people believe when the facts exist regardless of my personal views and I refuse to compromise by ignoring an observable objective and concrete fact just to kiss up for imaginary clout. ua-cam.com/video/_R0hbe8HZj0/v-deo.htmlsi=kY7MpmebKDtxRGb1 Test your friends and local associates for yourself and see for yourself if this is a problem the overwhelming, sweeping majority of the fgc and you other "fans" of fighting games are unknowingly perpetuating. Show them TF's video, then the technobabble video, then Core-A's video last and ask tbem this: "Which video was easier for you to understand?" Then after you've done that, get back to me and let me know what you learned.
I learned that you don't know what an intended audience is. A dedicated hobbyist making videos he thinks is cool isn't obligated to be the John Madden of fighting games. It can also be cool to make narrow videos crunching on specific details for a specific audience. If you want to help make fighting games grow, make your beginner focused content instead of being a casual elitist.
@@majinsweet I learned that you are well-versed at missing the point. I didn't come here to make enemies, either, so be mindful that I am aware of your impending interest to attempt justifying your response. I am just more invested in responses that are aware of my intent and willing to follow through with a rather simple test/experiment as opposed to those who would deliberately defy it to be confrontational... thus deflecting from the exercise. I could entertain thinly-veiled hostility further, but the question is whether or not I should.
@@TheoryFighter I have little reason to believe you will take me seriously or have interest in having a non-text/live/real time discussion with me on any platform that would allow for it and I am under no delusion of thinking any of what I say will motivate you to alter your perspective in any meaningful or productive way to help benefit the growth of the overall fighting game support base, so I will simply engage in my usual way of having a one-sided discussion that has a bulk of my intent misunderstood to try at answering that. ( because I recognize that the even a satisfactory response to you will not be possible unless you can ask me to unpack or explain me reasoning or rationale, let alone challenge it in real-time lest we otherwise spend roughly four to five months texting at each other in the comments section. I have spent quite a long time helping to get people who are interested in playing fighting games into a mindset to help them better understand how to approach not only playing the games, but also how to understand the exact kinds of pitfalls that may lead them off the trail of enjoying the games. I often find myself going at length having to defend content such as yours specifically because I can comprehend it's usefulness ( regardless of the terms used ) while others who haven't even managed to reach the level of beginner, ( let alone a controller in some cases ) stumble across videos like this one which is loaded with common terms in the fgc lexicon - and they automatically associate the entire genre and learning process with being too complicated to be worth trying to learn. The fact that I have to routinely work to not only defend content like yours from potential new players is frustrating enough as-is if only because this complication only came with the proliferation of smartphones and UA-cam videos for ease of access ( because many players are so impatient with the learning experience that they would rather take shortcuts when and where they can to "play good" that they may not have the wherewithal or direction to understand that learning takes time, so it's just a matter of convenience plus the lack of developer insight to properly implement more practical learning tools on the games akin to how soul blade/calibur 2 did with weapon acquisition modes or the specific way sfa3 handled world tour compared to sf6.) so it pains me to tell people to IGNORE YOUR VIDEOS after watching people drop the whole genre who had only just begun to start playing all because things somehow sound "too complicated" or "ridiculously obtuse" the moment they hear an abundance of unfamiliar phrases and terms ( or read them out of an in-game presentational context, such as sites like dustloop, SRK, eventhubs, etc...) Don't make the easily miscommunicated mistake of thinking that I dislike you or your video. My overall issue is that I actively have a honest and long-standing contempt for the overall fgc ( especially those with great followings ) to observe single most damning reality that not a single one of them is either aware, nor cares about the massive blind spot that exists within it which literally overlaps with the content creation community within it which is causing the exact bottleneck in it that we do not want. We want more players getting invested playing the games together with us, not less and without some level of improved quality control on how we can agree upon how we communicate within the bounds of the genre, we'll stay perpetually stick in this quagmire of being positioned ad if it's a niche and small genre. And that's an absolutely unacceptable outcome since we all want more people to play these games with us and the companies that make them to continue making them a success. We're not doing our parts as fans to improve on that front and I am not interested in playing into a denial that would serve to worsen that situation. I am only one person. One voice. I will stand my ground against the entire fgc and die on this hill if it means the genre can grow stronger and better in spite of the short-sightedness of this current community climate. You're not my enemy. None of you are my enemies. All of you just have such narrow focus that can't imagine how shocked any of you would be if even one of you could even see outside of the limited scope you've all accidentally shackled yourselves to simply out of mere habit. Again. I can enjoy your content just fine myself, but just imagine that you might not even have known that you denied the community another future Tokido, Knee, Ryan Hart, Daigo, Sonicfox or even Max Dood all because they simply got turned off by walking into a D&D encyclopedia instead of simply playing through Weapon Master mode and learning all they need. Dismiss me out of hand if you like, it's a given seeing as I have lost count of how many times others have in online spaces, but at least I can sincerely claim that I have had more success in not only instructing people into playing fighting games and being fans of the genre in person... it just stings that in all 4 occasions that I failed it was exclusively due to external factors beyond my control- specifically the terminology interference long-established In the fgc and either casually spoken verbatim in a video or printed/type up with an automatic expectation of comprehension. Let's just say it's embarrassing that I know at least one person completely swore this entire genre off simply due to the absolute fear of being misunderstood as some sort of "foot fetishist" on principle of how casually the term "footsies" gets used and not wanting to continue having to learn more on account of the excess of terms like that which somehow the fgc miscommunicates as anything resembling "beginner" term-friendly, let alone if the optimal "spacing" term would enter a beginner's understanding instead of instruction on the how one would learn to consistently perform a motion input as entry level. Whether or not you may think I have answered your question, I will take the risk of this being enough for now.
At the 22 second mark is the first fg-specific term, its specific to this game and he literally spells it out on screen, show it’s in the video, and then explains what it means with “it allows you to cancel normals into other normals of a higher strength culminating in a potential launch bringing in the second character and giving you a nice chunk of damage” Where’s the confusion? Where’s the babble?
TF is SFXT biggest ambassador.
Second biggest ;)
@@psychobluesfxtMay I assume the top on your list is MVC?😂
Third biggest
Well it sure ain't Capcom. Can't even buy the game any more.
What tf stand for
As far as i'm concerned, street fighter x tekken only exists in theoryfighter's channel, nowhere else in the entire planet
This is a big reason why the "Never nerf, only buff" mentality is just wrong; nerfing can actually make characters more exciting to play as if the strong option crowds out other options.
In BBTAG, I always thought Yumi's Aerial rave being Burst safe could've been an interesting tool by itself if you had to decide when to use it or when to go for damage. But Aerial rave is also her most damaging combo tool AND takes the enemy to the corner AND can go into super AND you can EX it just for more damage and corner carry. The one move is so overloaded that it turns the whole character into hit-confirm > Aerial rave. I always thought they should buff 214A so that you could use it for more comboes, but then nerf 214B's damage so that you have to decide which one to go for. People usually thought I was crazy to suggest *opening up combo options* for one of the best, most well rounded characters in the game, but I feel like this would've made her more interesting for both sides to play as or against.
On another note, I sometimes like to watch for gimmicks that would be hard to balance in Fighting games. Stuff like Asuka's whole deck system, or even Juri's install. Its hard to change them without completely ruining their identity.
I think that's part of the reason why playing weak characters can be enjoyable. Being limited in some way makes for interesting decisionmaking, whereas often top tiers are defined by moves so strong that they flatten decisionmaking in certain aspects of the game. A grappler who has to pick between four or five mediocre tools to help them get in, weighing the advantages and disadvantages of each, can be a lot more fun than playing a top tier rushdown who has a busted divekick to just brute force their way through neutral.
Yeah, Yumi was the character i was thinking of at the end there. I remember when 2.0 dropped and i spent some time trying to find any combo that wasn't just string into rekkas, then messing with her rekka mixups for a while, only to later find match videos of people just doing raw rekka into aerial rave > assist > aerial rave again for 10k damage. Then i was very sad that Makoto never got her rekka mixups back from CF, but Yumi who clearly didn't really need it had something similar.
Ye
Nah
Great analysis as always. I agree with your point that nerfing strong characters in order to make their toolkit and playstyle more interesting is a good thing. In my opinion, while balancing needs to focus _to some extent_ on making characters equally viable, its greater focus should be on keeping the individuality and differing gameplans of different characters intact rather than giving them tools that weren't originally intended to be part of their kit.
One slight correction that you'll probably not care about but I just feel like pointing it out. Jin's raw launcher in sfxt isn't his hop kick in tekken, its actually his i15 launch called "can cans" in the tekken community. Every kazama has a version of that launcher. Great video btw.
Awesome video! I agree that people love to share their opinions on which characters should be nerfed or buffed, but the task of doing that is actually ridiculously difficult.
Also, just have to be a nerd for a second, but you mentioned that Jin's launcher had to be 2 hits to match his hopkick animation from Tekken, but aKsHuAlLy, it's matching his can-cans. Jin also has a hopkick, but there is a slight difference lol.
You're totally right, can't believe I missed that one
I modify my MUGEN characters to balance my roster/make characters look more dynamic in action/try and develop my own fighting game system, and I can confirm that balancing is hard.
Does Mugen require intense coding experience?
@@Gokulover69420 I don't know anything about coding in general, so I can't really say, but there is a lot of text and variables involved if you want to start making/modifying characters. I actually have a short video up if you want to see a quick example of what messing around with characters blindly can lead to.
Facts. Especially when exploits or bugs are thrown in and add(or even remove) options that you've balanced the game around.
My best balance approach is to give characters similar risk vs reward dynamics and give characters the same amount of VIABLE(ignoring objectively worse choices) choices in most scenarios. This helps avoid most balancing pitfalls, but makes certain archetypes less unique.
One of my ideas when it comes to balancing (especially once i work on platform fighters), is making a balance where everyone’s as close to being as good as Melee Fox.
@@bailujen8052 Good idea. Only problem is that it is too unspecific.
Let's try to put this idea to the test. Let's give one character an insane recovery/edge guarding tools but lackluster at most things like Jigglypuff or Numbuh 1(CNPTEXL) then another that is decent at everything. What if players complain the first character is too strong because your game is filled with characters with predictable recoveries like Fox? What if the character is too weak because they are easily reverse edgeguarded by some characters that are top tier/played very often?
I used to use this same approach, but the issue is that there is no solution that can make the game not just be balanced... But also feel balanced as well.
WOO SFxT-related video!! with every time you showcase it i feel like i learn something brand new about it, i really did gloss this one over
Man, watching this makes me miss XTekken. It was so good after they patched the major issues
It seems like something I’d fucking love but the steam version still isn’t available, I’m crying and shitting and farting 😢
@@funnyusername4774 absolutely disgusting.
men don't cry.
Really interesting look into fighting game design philosophy as always my man, and this game seems more and more interesting the more i see it talked about 👍🏻
Thank you as always for waving the banner TF. Raw launchers always come to mind when i see Ken so easily force his way in with crouch MK in SF6 these days. Drive impact and perfect party are nice and all but launcher is the best dopamine trigger…or inhibitor if I’m on the wrong end of it. And yes, Jin’s double launcher is loony! One of the many reasons he’s top tier. I also agree with what you said about something being so good it undermines the rest of the character. TMNT x JL is going to have a rebalance soon and that’s one thing we’re all talking about
Oh thank god I was just binging a bunch of your videos last night
Love your content, hoping for more Mortal Kombat vids one day! 🙏
I remember watching the killer instinct documentary where an iron galaxy developer talked about how they dealed with Jago. The general consensus among players was that he could heal too easily and that needed to be changed. Iron Galaxy believed those complaints were valid, but the healing was a symptom of an underlying disease. After months of experimentation, they concluded that Jago had no real weaknesses, he was strong anywhere on-screen. To combat this, they nerfed his flying kick to be much less safe overall. After backlash that this wasn't what the fans wanted, Jago suddenly got more bad matchups and everyone stopped complaining.
Jin is in a similar position. The disease of the launcher having two opportunities to hit has the symptoms of improved safety, more blockstun, and more combo damage. Instead of nerfing Jin into the ground with reduced damage and less blockstun, a simple solution is to require both hits to connect to actually launch, and only have the second hit do some damage. It forces Jin players to be more careful about when and how to use the launcher while also providing some more mixup opportunities by making the opponent guess if Jin will actually tag out.
"You are not immune to SFxT propaganda" - TheoryFighter.
I remember picking Jin as my main after only ONE day with the game when it came out. I simply couldn't believe they had given this character so many tools. Such a blast to play if you did vary his moveset for fun. Like trying to come up with fireball traps, or places to throw out his EX parry. But all that ended up being overloooked as well. To watch him being used in tournament, you wouldn't know he had any of that stuff.
man I love this game, I wish they did another one with sf6 as the base this time
Also that king skin got me drooling
Cheak last Evo
Tekken guest in SF6 S2 please 🙏
Interesting > balanced
Is a motto it took a long time for me to come around to but after over a decade of playing these games I realized it’s the interesting moments that actually made me want to keep playing
A unbalanced game can be annoying and straight up garbage (like p2w stuff)
But yeah i agree that the cool aspect is whats gonna make yous tay
X Tekken was one of the games that got me to go start playing Tekken games and part of what made me fall in love with Jin as a character he translated to Street Fighter so well and his non moving projectiles were really fun too
That Alex costume makes King look like Leomon
Hi theoryfighter. This video seems awesome.
It is awesome. Thanks for such a solid think piece.
Not gunna lie, you had me in the first half.
As a game developer who made a game that was competitive among my friends, I had to balance the game daily, it was all I could think about. Fun times!
This was a good video, thanks
Probably the most nuanced take I've seen on a """broken""" move and the justifications for a nerfing character.
I find it funny that Jin's Can Can kicks in SFxT is really good but in Tekken it is strictly a i15 frame launcher punish and if blocked you are eating a high damage combo since it is very launch punishable.
Man I’d love to see you doing a video about Capcom “temporarily” delisting this years ago while they supposedly investigate the matter.
Damn man i love me some theory fighter
This whole options thing really is important in game with only one character, because now the balance is entirely around what your options are and what works and what doesn't. There needs to be a true rock paper scissors system in a game like that at the bare minimum.
You know it kinda nice seeing jin fight along side is dad from time to time.
It's hilarious how strong the first 2 moves highlighted are (cam can kicks and mid launching upppercut), as while decent moves with a purpose on their own they weren't/aren't amazing to this degree and neither were definitely safe even in Tekken 7.
Afro Dudley looks so hype lol
Holly shit King's design in this game, I had no idea
Oh man, I just love your videos analyzing this awesome game and would love to see more videos of you just going over the mechanics and underrated tech!
This game inspires my own fighting game because of how great it's mechanics are....in theory. I love that this game mixes Street Fighter's 6-button layout and 2D gameplay with Tekken's footsie and whiff punish dynamics and juggle combos. Unfortunately the aforementioned juggle combos left more to be desired. Between the god-awful damage scaling and questionable decisions regarding juggle properties on certain moves, not only do combos not look cool, but also don't feel satisfying, at least to me they don't. Still I absolutely adore how the Tekken cast looks and plays and it makes me happy to see Street Fighter 6 give us combos reminiscent of this game's while also improving on their practicality, flashiness, and combo route variety
This game is so underrated. I'm just waiting for capcom to fix this gem (no pun intended) so we can all enjoy it again!
Hell yes it is! It never ends! Balance itself is subjective nor does a game need to be “perfect” as some think. Some of the most successful/popular fighters are the furthest thing from balanced(Vs games). The number one focus should always be fun expressive gameplay. Players organically create the meta. I use smash as the perfect example. A game not meant to be competitive, but the community forged the scene.
P.S SFXT was fun af, but it’s undermined how strongly people hold on to nostalgia. Many times people can’t enjoy new games because they are always comparing them to another instead of appreciating what that particular game is.
This topic makes me th about the concept of a nerf accidently making a character stronger of vice versa. I’m sure it’s happened a few times but I can’t think of any examples right now
In SFV, they nerfed Dan by buffing his fireball.
I do agree with you on the end statement, however the devs (ASW specially) need to learn to balance their games better.
ASW specifically is very famous for either killing top tier characters with tons of unnecessary nerfs, or making nerfs so insignificant that they change nothing in the end - for those of you that started on Strive, ASW did this with all their prior games, it's not Strive exclusive, although they certainly are doing a better job on Strive than they did on Rev2 or BBCF.
A nerf needs to have an impact on how players use that character, not punishing enough that the character gets obliterated to the lowest of tiers (Zato on Rev2, Bedman on Revelator, Taokaka on BBCF) but also not just a "slap on the wrist" too (Johnny on Rev2, Happy Chaos on Strive), and the same goes for buffs but on the other way around.
And from my experience with ASW games + my (little) experience with other games, I see that it's very common for devs to miss this point when releasing a new balance patch. I'm not saying they're dumb pigs that don't know what they're doing or anything, I know it can be very hard to balance a character, but sometimes they don't even seem to try. You would expect a team with years of experience in multiple projects to at least understand balancing minimally.
I think what's really impressive about this video is how your opening salvo, on the surface level, seems to be somewhat disconnected by the meat of the video if you can't translate the intent of the meat of the video into other moves/characters/mechanics that would illicit the same feeling of "oh god are you serious about this move/character/mechanic" feeling from Jin's raw launcher lol
Interesting you say that bc I hear the other side far more often, that over-balancing strips characters of their unique quirks. I might even hazard to say Jin's RAW LAUNCH might be a defining character trait?
That's what he's saying, it is a defining character trait that's overshadowed by him having other options that are just better for the given scenario
This should be interesting
The move is up down right left middle score.
I agreed myself that literally everything were almost impossible to balance. If it was balanced, then it will be bored faster than it was not at all
Its only best to make sure anything not being overboard from minimum standard, neither being underboard as almost entirely worthless
Such an underrated game
Footsies has perfect balance
I wish I saw this video back in like 2011 whatever whenever sf x t came out because I used to main jin
Funny, Jin is suffering the exact same problem in Tekken 8 as of the most recent beta.
Jin's varied array of viable lows that each fulfill different purposes are being shunned by the overwhelming power of his new d2.
Reject neutral, embrace D2.
@@MK-vi2cm Reject frankly everything and embrace d2.
@@BreadBeardFGC it sucks but my main got watered down too. Law has no depth in his execution either now
@@MK-vi2cm nothing but sympathy for old Law players that weren't just 3 bar randos
@@BreadBeardFGC got to Emperor before i stopped playing T7 hurts but it is what it is now
Guess I'm redownloading SFxT again after work today
love your vids on SFxT, seems a highly underated game
The core problem is that in any competitive... THING ever, they'll always be those toxic players with a fragile ego who'll always escape goat their losses, which lends to the conversation around the fighting games to degrade pretty quickly
Take for example, SF6 THE BEST balanced game in the franchise, yet people are pretending that JP is broken as if any character in that game comes Even close to sf4's arcade yun, vanilla segot, I can go on etc
This is why Tekken (actual Tekken) is balanced differently. It adds more moves for everyone constantly to mitigate this issue. Options / choices (basically).
there's also a lot more unique situations in Tekken than in 2Ds which means even though there are a lot of moves, most of them have a time to shine
Nice to see cross Tekken
I really should get this game on steam. I keep forgetting to buy it when it on sale.
I'm not sure if they ever fixed it but because of the game's dependency on Games for Windows Live which no longer exists, the game basically crashes on launch. Last time I played it, I had to dig around for a fan patch to eliminate the GFWL check.
@@terrysaltNot only did they never fix the GFWL dependency, they decided it was easier to just delist the game on PC. You can't buy it anymore.
@@eggbreakerdotexe Ah, that sucks. :(
Street Fighter x TheoryFighter
Tell that to bamco please, there ways of buffing characters in Tekken 7 isso boring.
so how do we play sfxt smoothly online with each other in current year
that question is for later, now we have to ask how do we launch the game smoothly
Maybe PC. there's a patch that brings back online again.
There's the PC version with the online patch and there are the console versions, PS3 being active but has more offline input lag compared to the Xbox and PC versions.
I wish capcom would hurry up and rerelease the steam version
the way TxSf animations look and the kind of unnatural juggling turned me off
but god damn i think this could be an amazing beat-em-up
Whats the best way to play SFxT?
Water is wet.
wish i could play this game :( sucks that you cant get it on PC anymore
GameStop online store if you’re in NA, Amazon if you’re in EU. Both are global keys
@@psychobluesfxt thank you, i also realized i can get it for vita
Jin is just always a strong character (just don't look at tekken 5, DR, or 6)
that is 3 whole games where he was really bad
Does SFxT still function online for PS3?
It does, and no PS Plus required to use it.
This makes me miss SFxT.
Jokes on you, when I play, it doesn't matter who I'm playing against, it's a consistently balanced automatic lose
It's not that hard to nerf and balance characters obviously they could just just use AI to see just how broken some moves really are but at the end of the day they want you to play the game the way they want you to.
Jin was basically the reason I stopped playing XTekken. Just a completely broken character.
Mirror matches are the only thing balanced in a fighting game, everything else is so supposed to be unbalanced.
Not really
There is no rng in fighting games so even if the game has a tier list you can overcome the flaws of a low tier char like some pros proved it
Moba and shooter thats where meta matter far more
Notice how moba esport never pick off meta cuz its close to impossible to make them work
Woo
just a lil off the top 🤣😂 barber
All games overly focused on balance are incredibly boring.
Patch Teams will never understand the original design of characters as these teams are always of lower quality
The most balanced street fighter game is still Super Turbo because they made so many versions from just SF2 World Warrior to Super Turbo they managed to make everyone competitive at high level.
you should give me a shout some time. I have been studying fighting game balance and have been trying some experiments with moveset creators
Don’t care how much sfxtekken is bashed by the fgc. It was the last fighting game Capcom actually tried to show they cared. The backgrounds and characters were great. Look at how boring mvci looks compared to it. From bar UI to graphics and especially those boring as hell backgrounds. Even gummy fighter 6 has boring mobile game meters
Do people still play this game?
love your content, TF, but sfxt puts me to sleep
K.O
hard? yes but not nearly as hard as developers make it look.
Can you teach me SFxT
0:30 Lmao. Are we supposed to know what a boost chain or a gatling system is?
Yes
@@HammerG explain it then
@@TheBLBShow No :)
@@TheBLBShow its like a magic series
@@hefdef9961 oh a chain combo!
every fucking game is hard to balance. there saved you 6 mins.
to be completely honest, no they aren't. not in 2023 like 30 years into the genre's history.
Hell, I'd say fighting games are one of the easiest genres to balance.
Trying to balance an RTS is an actual nightmare.
This is the single most frontloaded and lexicon-laden fighting game video I have ever heard... on the most controversial fighting game of all time.
If a player mew new to the fighting genre were to watch this video, it would kill their interest in learning any more after just the first 45 seconds in. This is not the gaming industry's problem, it's the FGC's problem.. and the first person to disagree with this statement for any reason proves the point... which is not something I take any pride in saying.
If you somehow can't understand what I mean, here's an example:
ua-cam.com/video/PnkT6C9Ose8/v-deo.htmlsi=83u6WTyIxdzFhtJ6
Between TF's video and this link above, what do you feel is less confusing to a person who just decides to look at a video without knowing any pre-existing context?
Core-A-Gaming did a video in the past that I specifically cited as basic viewing material as a standard for all beginners just to understand anything on an intermediate to advanced level and that statement still stands to thid day simply because anybody who can't comprehend anything of substance in this video can effectively understand more than half of what's being said if they watch that video first.
I don't care what people believe when the facts exist regardless of my personal views and I refuse to compromise by ignoring an observable objective and concrete fact just to kiss up for imaginary clout.
ua-cam.com/video/_R0hbe8HZj0/v-deo.htmlsi=kY7MpmebKDtxRGb1
Test your friends and local associates for yourself and see for yourself if this is a problem the overwhelming, sweeping majority of the fgc and you other "fans" of fighting games are unknowingly perpetuating. Show them TF's video, then the technobabble video, then Core-A's video last and ask tbem this:
"Which video was easier for you to understand?"
Then after you've done that, get back to me and let me know what you learned.
I learned that you don't know what an intended audience is. A dedicated hobbyist making videos he thinks is cool isn't obligated to be the John Madden of fighting games. It can also be cool to make narrow videos crunching on specific details for a specific audience. If you want to help make fighting games grow, make your beginner focused content instead of being a casual elitist.
@@majinsweet I learned that you are well-versed at missing the point.
I didn't come here to make enemies, either, so be mindful that I am aware of your impending interest to attempt justifying your response. I am just more invested in responses that are aware of my intent and willing to follow through with a rather simple test/experiment as opposed to those who would deliberately defy it to be confrontational... thus deflecting from the exercise.
I could entertain thinly-veiled hostility further, but the question is whether or not I should.
Why do you think this video is for beginners?
@@TheoryFighter I have little reason to believe you will take me seriously or have interest in having a non-text/live/real time discussion with me on any platform that would allow for it and I am under no delusion of thinking any of what I say will motivate you to alter your perspective in any meaningful or productive way to help benefit the growth of the overall fighting game support base, so I will simply engage in my usual way of having a one-sided discussion that has a bulk of my intent misunderstood to try at answering that. ( because I recognize that the even a satisfactory response to you will not be possible unless you can ask me to unpack or explain me reasoning or rationale, let alone challenge it in real-time lest we otherwise spend roughly four to five months texting at each other in the comments section.
I have spent quite a long time helping to get people who are interested in playing fighting games into a mindset to help them better understand how to approach not only playing the games, but also how to understand the exact kinds of pitfalls that may lead them off the trail of enjoying the games.
I often find myself going at length having to defend content such as yours specifically because I can comprehend it's usefulness ( regardless of the terms used ) while others who haven't even managed to reach the level of beginner, ( let alone a controller in some cases ) stumble across videos like this one which is loaded with common terms in the fgc lexicon - and they automatically associate the entire genre and learning process with being too complicated to be worth trying to learn.
The fact that I have to routinely work to not only defend content like yours from potential new players is frustrating enough as-is if only because this complication only came with the proliferation of smartphones and UA-cam videos for ease of access ( because many players are so impatient with the learning experience that they would rather take shortcuts when and where they can to "play good" that they may not have the wherewithal or direction to understand that learning takes time, so it's just a matter of convenience plus the lack of developer insight to properly implement more practical learning tools on the games akin to how soul blade/calibur 2 did with weapon acquisition modes or the specific way sfa3 handled world tour compared to sf6.) so it pains me to tell people to IGNORE YOUR VIDEOS after watching people drop the whole genre who had only just begun to start playing all because things somehow sound "too complicated" or "ridiculously obtuse" the moment they hear an abundance of unfamiliar phrases and terms ( or read them out of an in-game presentational context, such as sites like dustloop, SRK, eventhubs, etc...)
Don't make the easily miscommunicated mistake of thinking that I dislike you or your video. My overall issue is that I actively have a honest and long-standing contempt for the overall fgc ( especially those with great followings ) to observe single most damning reality that not a single one of them is either aware, nor cares about the massive blind spot that exists within it which literally overlaps with the content creation community within it which is causing the exact bottleneck in it that we do not want.
We want more players getting invested playing the games together with us, not less and without some level of improved quality control on how we can agree upon how we communicate within the bounds of the genre, we'll stay perpetually stick in this quagmire of being positioned ad if it's a niche and small genre.
And that's an absolutely unacceptable outcome since we all want more people to play these games with us and the companies that make them to continue making them a success. We're not doing our parts as fans to improve on that front and I am not interested in playing into a denial that would serve to worsen that situation.
I am only one person. One voice. I will stand my ground against the entire fgc and die on this hill if it means the genre can grow stronger and better in spite of the short-sightedness of this current community climate.
You're not my enemy. None of you are my enemies. All of you just have such narrow focus that can't imagine how shocked any of you would be if even one of you could even see outside of the limited scope you've all accidentally shackled yourselves to simply out of mere habit.
Again. I can enjoy your content just fine myself, but just imagine that you might not even have known that you denied the community another future Tokido, Knee, Ryan Hart, Daigo, Sonicfox or even Max Dood all because they simply got turned off by walking into a D&D encyclopedia instead of simply playing through Weapon Master mode and learning all they need.
Dismiss me out of hand if you like, it's a given seeing as I have lost count of how many times others have in online spaces, but at least I can sincerely claim that I have had more success in not only instructing people into playing fighting games and being fans of the genre in person... it just stings that in all 4 occasions that I failed it was exclusively due to external factors beyond my control- specifically the terminology interference long-established In the fgc and either casually spoken verbatim in a video or printed/type up with an automatic expectation of comprehension.
Let's just say it's embarrassing that I know at least one person completely swore this entire genre off simply due to the absolute fear of being misunderstood as some sort of "foot fetishist" on principle of how casually the term "footsies" gets used and not wanting to continue having to learn more on account of the excess of terms like that which somehow the fgc miscommunicates as anything resembling "beginner" term-friendly, let alone if the optimal "spacing" term would enter a beginner's understanding instead of instruction on the how one would learn to consistently perform a motion input as entry level.
Whether or not you may think I have answered your question, I will take the risk of this being enough for now.
At the 22 second mark is the first fg-specific term, its specific to this game and he literally spells it out on screen, show it’s in the video, and then explains what it means with “it allows you to cancel normals into other normals of a higher strength culminating in a potential launch bringing in the second character and giving you a nice chunk of damage”
Where’s the confusion? Where’s the babble?