Will Subwoofers Upgrade your HiFi?: REL S/510 REVIEW
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- Опубліковано 21 лип 2024
- This is my video review for the REL Acoustics Serie S/510 subwoofers being used as a pair for HiFi 2 channel music use. I have had these in my system for a few months and used them with several different speakers such as the TAD CE1 and the NEW Mission 770 as well as others. I have been using the subwoofers with REL's Bassline Blue high level cables.
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Speaker Reviews I have used the REL with
TAD CE1 • Are Japanese HiFi Spea...
Mission 770 • MISSION 770 Speakers R...
I mention a DALI record in this video its available to buy from DALI here www.dali-shop.com/collections...
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Chapters
0:00 Intro
2:48 First Impressions
5:10 The S/510
8:32 Subs with Vinyl
11:00 Subs with Digital
13:10 Serie S vs T9X
14:31 Final Thoughts
All the music in my videos comes from Epidemic sound which is subscription service allowing copyright access to unlimited music - follow this link to sign up share.epidemicsound.com/9xd8mh
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The HiFi System used for this review
Acoustic Treatments from GIK Acoustics gikacoustics.co.uk/ref/9/
Music Source Custom Built Audio PC featuring products from JCAT XE USB Card, Optimo 3 Duo Linear Power Supply, Signature Cables USB and SATA, Net Femto Network Card, JCAT Grounding Cable
• Building the ULTIMATE ...
• €500 vs €900 HIFI USB ...
• JCAT OPTIMO 3 DUO Line...
• NEW FLAGSHIP JCAT USB ...
JCAT OPTIMO NANO x 2 • BEST AFFORDABLE HiFi M...
Speakers Mission 770 • MISSION 770 Speakers R...
Amplifier Audiozen Embrace Hybrid • EXCEPTIONAL integrated...
DAC Chord Electronics Hugo TT 2 • Chord Electronics Hugo...
Power IsoTek EVO 3 NOVA / IsoTek Genesis One / IsoTek EVO 3 Titan
• NEW IsoTek EVO 3 NOVA ...
• IsoTek EVO3 Genesis On...
Tellurium Q Statement Analogue Cable • Perfect HiFi Cables?? ...
Power Cables Tellurium Q Silver, Silver Diamond
• Tellurium Q Silver Ult...
Tungsten Grooves W70 Isolation Feet • REVIEW Tungsten Groove...
HiFi Racks - Quadraspire Q4 Evo • RACK FROM THE GODS HiF...
HiFi Racks Podium Reference.
Thanks for watching - Terry Ellis Pursuit Perfect System
#HiFi #subwoofer #hifiaddiction
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Hi guys, I hope you enjoy the video. I think you will notice I keep saying the word "SUBJECTIVE" that is because I had a whole section of "OBJECTIVE" review with some measurements showing the REL filling in bass nulls I have at the MLP from the Mission 770 but it extended the video run time a lot. The nulls are nothing to do with the speakers its all the NEGATIVE EFFECTS OF THE ROOM. I will be going into a lot more detail in the website version of my REL S/510 review. Make sure you check it out www.pursuitperfectsystem.com
After 45 years of audio, all I can say is no truer words have been spoken. I don't consider myself a base hound but I was so blown away the first time I heard the improvement that was made to every aspect of the musical spectrum by adding a single REL, let alone multiples. At the same time we had a equal experience when replacing a Raven ribbon tweeter with the TAD 703 tweeter ( sadly now discontinued ) in a world class tri-amped horn system. We all looked at each other in complete dis-belief on how much every thing improved, spooky indeed.
I totally agree that bass is the most important. For me, when you have a good musical subwoofer, when the bass kicks in for a song that has a personal attachment to yourself, it can stir the emotions like nothing else.
Yeah totally true Mark, that is not really what I am referring to in the video, I am referring to how bass effects how you hear the rest of the music and how the rate and level of bass at certain frequencies is crucial to everything else. The Dirac Calibrator in see things a certain way different I think to a lot of other audiophiles but its all good man, thanks for watching :)
There is no such thing as a "musical" subwoofer. Either the sub is good or not and integrates well with the room with minimal modes or it doesn't.
@@jasonkillsformomy
I think when he say "musical" he meant "fast", and so accurate.
Because many subwoofers tend to be slow and can't keep up with the music. So you hear the bass late and smir. Maybe for cinema it's enough...
I think it's a mater of hi-quality filters, powerful internal amplification and the fact that you get the signal directly from your speakers connectors and not from the LFE channel.🙏
@@ity1311 There's no such thing as fast bass. That's an oxymoron. Sure there's probably some really bad subs on the market, but almost all subs today have no problem keeping up with any music. Almost all problems with bass are room and eq related. A sub most be integrated perfectly to the rest of the system. I don't understand what you mean by "directly from speakers connectors" If it's a active sub you need to plug it in to the LFE.
@@jasonkillsformomy
Thanks ror your reply 🙏
Check this video to understand what i meant by directly to your speakers connectors.
It's working perfectly.
ua-cam.com/video/bnQOjCuoR9k/v-deo.html
Yep, LOVE my S/510! If/when I get a larger room, I will get a second one. Great review as always Terry. Thanks.
Got one REL S/510 (for now) with my Wharfedale Elysian 2 speakers and Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista 600. Had the T/7i before. REL is great, just makes sure you take the time to find the perfect spot (subwoofer crawl) and tune them in by ear. It costs time but is so worth it.
I completely agree with you, bass is really important to add life to the track. You really need the whole spectrum. But you do really need quality bass.
Bass IS the most important part. If there are dips or holes in the bass, it will be holes and dips farther up in the frequency too.
There is nothing like "feeiling" the vibrations in the music as well as hearing it. That said; if one messes up the bass, that too, will be heard further up in the frequencies. Great review as always 🤘
Yeah its very important and very hard
Thank you for your review - explaining the advantages of a sub in your system. I will try to explain the benefits from a musician’s / science point of view. I play violin as an amateur musician. When playing in a string quartet it is very important that all musicians play in tune. For practice you start with the cello, then viola and finally violins. What you find when a cello plays a note at 220Hz it will be easy for other instruments to play the same note an octave higher at 440Hz as the string will already resonate. The same benefits apply in your Hifi system.
Despite using fairly large ATC50 actives I really enjoy the benefit of the addition of a REL S/2 I recently purchased:-)
I hope this is a helpful explanation.
That is a great observation. Thank you!
8:52...I wholeheartedly agree....perfect bass is a dream.. I'm probably on my 10th subwoofer !
I'm experiencing this now. Total convert. Took the plunge and bought an old second hand Focal subwoofer to experiment with, just last week.
What I wholeheartedly was not expecting was a change in soundstage depth and even better seperation. Gobsmacked and it only goes down to 32 hz. Everything sounds beefed up!
Was only listening half a day and have already ordered a little SVS Micro 3000 for the flexibility, with a plan to move to 2 if all goes well.
Love the Dali plug. Ironically my speakers are Dali Epicon 2's.
Cheers and best of luck with the project, FWIW its not a really plug for DALI its legit a good record, but maybe they gave it to me hoping I would mention it not sure. I wasnt the only person to get one I am not that special
Sunshine-Superman,
Dual subs are game changing in most systems, great plan!
update, updaaaaaaate
how’d it go?
@@WeeWeeJumbo well I couldn't stop at one and now have had twin SVS Micro 3000's in my system for about a year now. Going from none to one sub made the biggest difference to my ears, adding a second just beefs things up a little more. It's crazy, but I have to pinch myself sometimes and then go and switch the subs off to check I'm not imagining the dimensionality they bring. The soundstage is definitely flatter without them. Love how I can fine tune both subs from my listening position with the SVS app - no putting the sub at my listening position and crawling around the floor required 😂
Great video as always, Terry! I have a REL212-SX and it's the one part of my setup that right now I absolutely would not part with.
I have a pair of the 212/SX and couldn't be happier. The musicians are "in the room."
hi, what size of room is it being used in?
😁TERRY… I totally understand you’re nervous chuckle at the end I had the same experience ….In my work truck with a high end components system and 4 10 inch subs and 4 Quality AMPS Back in the day 😁🤗😍😍😍
True,
bass delivery is most important and hard to achieve
I totally agree with him.
Even the cheapest speakers can produce treble, but not full bass down to 20Hz.
Got the exact same model REL around 3 months ago (just one though), to upgrade my really old Magnat sub. TBH I'm not a sub-bass fan (even though I used to play bass guitar and still play synths etc) and the Magnat was only on for movies or the rare 5.1 music mix. Well, the REL is really NIGHT AND DAY to the Magnat. It's so transparent it's like you don't have a sub in the room. I still listen with the sub off most of the time, but when I listen to something like soundtrack-ey industrial Techno, WOW, it really ads another dimension to the sound. (I use Vienna acoustics Bethoven baby grand speakers BTW). Added bonus, when my girlfriend is around and we're watching a sci-fi movie or something, she doesn't complain and ask to turn the sub down anymore, with the REL you feel it more than you hear it, quality bass!
absolutely right i use with my mbl s speakers 2 rel s g1 Gibraltar and sound amazing together all the music transform to pleasure
Hi mate , love the drum n bass it's my genre when I dj . For me it's about the vocal and the bass . Ps big fan of passive radiators , keeps it musical and tight if
done properly . 😊
I have been using transmission line speakers for about 20 years, they can be a little slow sounding compared to other types however once you have heard bass notes on certain music it’s hard to live without it. An example would be London grammar hey now. Most sealed and ported speakers can not produce the low end bass and a subwoofer is a must to get down to lowest of notes
Just added a single REL T9x Red to my system.My first sub. Game changing. Night and day difference.
Great video once again! Would have loved a long section on nulls, will be heading over to the website 👍 Adding a single T/7i was a bit of a revelation and will happily be moving to dual T/9x’s soon, as I’m finally getting a dedicated listening room!! 🥳 Planning to go all out optimizing speaker, sub and seating position, installing a dedicated power line, fully treating the room and applying eq as needed! Might try the Geddes approach adding on one-two additional T/7I’s. The plan is to wait with all speaker, cable and source upgrades till this is all done (ok will require a lot of discipline not to scratch that itch! 😅).
That sounds awesome to me. Get it all on video make a channel showing the process
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Heh, not a bad idea 😊
@@thepickyaudiophile So have you got dual T/9x's?
@@keithmoriyama5421 Yes, I have yet to treat my new cave, but am running the subs in near field, right behind the couch. It’s awesome. Started with just one, but the pressure and scale from using from two is worth it 👍
those handles are a fantastic idea.wish my svs 16 ultra had them.what a mission to move that thing around..
Or did I just make them look good Dean..... haha 😄
@@PursuitPerfectSystem got to say terry ,they do look very good. i think if i didnt already have the svs 16 ,id probably purchase the Rels instead. problem is my eyes usually are bigger than my wallet..haha
Never heard rel but heard good stuff about them, choised to go with Arendal 1723 1s and i never been happier with sub, packs good punch while still sounding fantastic, i think really good subs cost€1000 or more
You are so correct. I added a small T5 to the bedroom, Not. expecting a diferance to dali bookshelves..... But yes........ it does
A well set up and balance bass is all in a system.
I own S510 rel and I use it with ATC SCM19's. When I asked REL the question about T series or S series and they said-----Speed. The speed of the sub needs to match the speed of the speaker, hence their speaker matching tool. The Rel is amazing-couldn't be without it
Mark just curious did you consider or demo the ATC C1 MK2 sub as would seem a good option with ATC would be really interesting if Terry could review different make Subs like the ATC to understand pros and cons.
There is a lot of clever marketing on REL side so take this into consideration. They match subwoofers to speakers based on cost as well - they don’t think someone who buys speakers for 1k would buy sub for 2k. More power means cone can move faster - hence s series start with 500w and they regard them as ‘faster’. All in all it’s hard to determine what’s fad and what isn’t. They go against any room correction and dsp control - so majority of advancements in music in past decade - is Rel being slow with adaptation? There will always be those ‘analog’ guys they will go for it. I can see in a decade Rel coming up with DSP and branding it next Rel revolution. Same as A/B was their best amplifier until they jumped onto d class and now they brand it as better.
I'm upgrading my speakers next year & after that upgrading my T9i's to the s9's.
Thanks, Terry!
Fully agree,
I have large Focal Aria 948 columns that are pretty much full range, but the placement that works well in my room for the soundstage does not work so well for the bass. Adding a REL T7X sub (and I'm sure an SVS or other would give me the same service) offers me huge flexibility. I'm not sold on the high level input: I need to add some of the very low bass, but also subtract some from the main speakers to reduce a few slightly higher frequencies that my room amplified too much (standing waves) so I went with the LFE connection and tweaked the crossovers and parametric EQ to obtain exactly what I was looking for and it took some efforts but it now blends perfectly :-)
What are you using for your from end? I ask because most integrated amps/ 2 channel preamps have no bass management and ability to high pass your mains.
@@Eugene737 You are right, with many stereo amps, the high level input of the sub is the only way.
My setup is for mixed use, half of the time Home Theatre, half for music so I use a Yamaha AV amplifier, even when I listen to stereo music. I was once considering to use the pre-amp outputs of my AV receiver to let a dedicated amplifier take care of my main speakers, but since I now have the subwoofer offloading the main speakers from the most power demanding task, I feel that my current AV amplifier is already up to the task.
Keep up the good work and pls when is the new REL reference G2 released?
i dont know anything about that sorry
Thanks for interesting video! I have a S 510 i my in my set up, and I have been thinking about adding a second one. What do you say about that, do you think it will add something important to the sound? Best Regards, Peter
Terry,
Excellent discussion & review.
Question: Is the sub placement depicted on the video at 11:20 minutes representative of where the subs were during listening tests?
If so, how did you determine these spots as desireable?
FWIW, for two front located subs, I would expect better results at about the 1/4 & 3/4 front wall width points. In the video pic, this would be about just to the inside of the L & R mains.
Cheers, XEagleDriver
Hi Yes, that is the location of the subwoofers, I know through measurement there is no perfect spot in the whole front of the room. Its not possible to place the subs further into the room because of a door coming into the room.
I could corner load the subs but then I am not sure it would be optimum for time - I played around a bit with trying to get the subs to snap into focus with the mains rather than sound like they are adding something to the sound, that spot was good for that. Measured with each speaker there was no cancellation between speaker and sub. Best I could do in this situation.
I have a pair of older REL R-328 with Dynaudio Confidence C2 Platinum speakers in an analog/digital-sourced Naim 252/300 DR system. I am considering replacing them with a pair of S/510. Subs in HiFi system aren’t about more bass, they are about better bass, and REL delivers every time.
When I first added a sub my wife was initially against the purchase. I borrowed a REL from my dealer and played our analog recording of Bach’s Solo Sonatas and Partitas for violin. Once she got comfortable listening I turned the sub off. She asked what happened. I asked her to tell me, and she said the sound-stage collapsed and the violin lost its luscious woody timbre.
She contributed some of her own discretionary funds to help me purchase the sub. True story.
I am running 6 of these alongside Kef full range speakers, 3 each side stacked and really enjoying it. Just so much musical enjoyment.
Wow nice man uber special
I read your articles about setting up systems and subwoofers using Dirac. Concerning the REL S/510, the advice I got from REL is to measure the speakers (in my case Sonus Faber Maxima Amator), en dial in the subwoofer by hand. I am curious to how you do it using Dirac. What settings on the sub do you choose before measurement? I have the standalone fullrange version of Dirac on my PC, which is also the source for music and media. Thanks in advance!
I got 2x S/812, and I've previously only ever had stereo speakers and not much more. However, what I did find missing most of the times is the soul of the music
I’m considering a pair of s812’s to flatten my Monitor Audio gx300’s frequency response in-room from 55Hz on down. I want to be IN the concert hall and FEEL the 16hz organ notes in my bones. Like I’m there. So are the s/812’s doing that in your system?
I wonder if these make tower speakers essentially redundant. I mean if you can have the space saving of in wall or on wall speakers like PMM2'a or Focal 301's with one of these, you'd basically get 3 way tower performance plus the lower levels towers can't reach. Right?
I believe many are drawn to
music and hifi due to an emotional connection to the music. To look at it mystically, I believe there is a cosmic resonance that occurs in the presence of certain vibrations, particularly in the bass region. I don’t believe this has ever been scientifically quantified, but personal experience informs me it exists nevertheless. Products such as the REL appear to magnify this effect in a positive way.
I experimented with REL’s back in the 1980’s when they were a UK company. They were fantastic but my cat used them as a spraying post! When I went to full range speakers I had no need for them as the bass in the full range speaker was better integrated (by the manufacturer) looked better, was less intrusive and the cat was no longer with me. If I was going to a full Cinema experience I would probably invest in Subs if I thought my room was big enough to support the 17ft+ sound waves required !
Thats the whole point of the second half of the review - the speakers are delivering bass to 20hz in the room but could still be made to sound better with the subs, its not just about the spec sheet of the what the speakers can do. Buy yeah big bass wave lengths is an issue for us all
Quality bass tuned right makes all the difference. 12 inch alpine type r in my golf like I used to have never helped haha. I use a 8 inch Audison these days
Thanks for posting. REL recommends the s510 for my Totem Tribe Towers. I`m deciding if I want to spend the money on a s510 or buy the t9x instead for half the price. Do you think the s510 will make that much of a difference compared to the t9x?
I totally agree with you.
I have one of these. It’s awesome
I'd like a HT1205 for lfe and a T9x for stereo. I wonder if the S510 would be as good in both respects.
Hi Terry, what would you prefer, the TAD CR1TX speakers without subwoofers, or the TAD CE1TX speakers with subwoofers? I'm kind of wondering about this and would like your opinion.
🤗 TERRY …I TOTALLY 💯 AGREE 99 % all systems can benefit from the properly set up subwoofers … I have two problems…NOT IN MY BUDGET 🥹 and the second is WAF 😁😍😍😍
Unlike my previous sub that I used to turn on and off when listening to certain genres of music, the S/510, once I got it rightly dialed in with my Dynaudio Heritage Specials, it was never-ever turned off again 😄
It adds a deliciousness to the music that you just can't go back, no matter how good the bass of your speakers where without (I was also feeling like this is too good already, no need for a sub in this small room - wasn't really true). My room is super small so I can only install one but I'm wondering up until when they'll be available so that I grab a second one and be ready if I move to a bigger room.
@@nicoras8803 so the engineers that defined stereo as 2 channels each with a bandwidth from 20hz to 20khz were crazy and didn’t have a clue when they specified full range like that?
Also, do you know any loudspeaker that presents it's very lowest frequencies with the same authority as the previous ones or they roll off before? This roll of, to my ears is less perception of what could be bettered if it was louder up to the normal level (this is called a flat frequency response). This is also, exactly what subwoofers are for.
The sound stage, when the bass is limited is also less real.
Anyway, I'm very happy with the missing information that I didn't had without the subwoofer.
I have 2 REL T7X with a Lyngdorf TDAI 1120 😀
I will never change it... 😀
In my 8metre x 8 metre room i have 1 rel S5 sub the older model with a 12 inch driver.. and it rattles the shit out of the room...brilliant sub bass on 2 channel and surround .. just like john hunter said connect the speakon cable with the LFE and set ur speakers to large...believe me that rel S5 is awesome
I love all of your videos Terry. I am in the market for two subwoofers that need to address my two channel passion as well as movie nights with the kids. My room is 23ft X 13ft. I have a pair of ATC50's (active) which are my main front two speakers. I was thinking about the REL 1508 or the S812. I need a sub(s) perfect for movies and perfect for critical listening. I don't ask for much, do I Terry? Is the S812 or the 1508 the route for me? And yes my two channel is just as important as my movie life.
id test with the speaker ports plugged, should integrate better with the subs. ports cause phase issues.
Nice subs mate!
No phase issues, I measured the performance of the speakers with the subs all in phase. That will all be in the review on the website. They are not my subs just review units
Terry, I have been sitting on the fence for some years. My system has KEF Reference 3 twos, Townshend supertweeters and an Exposure VIII, XI XII amplifier with CD or streaming sources. My listening area is 5m x 2m60 high and up to 11m length. Should I get two S510s or one S812 in your opinion? The KEFs are 6dB down at 40 Hz according to the specs. What do you think? All the best, Rob in Switzerland
One question: I have a powerful Class D amplifier and Boenicke W11 speakers. I noticed in your video your speaker woofers moving quite a bit. I play music on occasions quite loud but never see my woofers moving. How come your woofers move so much?
Need a recommendation! I don’t listen at high volumes. My current room is 20 sm with 3 open doors. We expect twice as big a room in the future. I am going for the S Serie due to 20Hz vs 27Hz with the T Serie as we want one sub to do music and movies. Trying to decide between a S510 and S812. I can get a slightly better price on the S812. My speakers specs say they do 30Hz, large 4 way floorstanders with 2 x 6 inch woofers each. My system is very much high-end-ish (on a budget). At this point I feel the price difference between the 510 and 812 is easily justifiable. What you think?
Bass in room doesn’t work by numbers you can’t just say the speakers do this and subs do this and both together = x bass in room doesn’t work like that. For big bass you need big subs so 812 for movies if your looking at the s series but the overall performance you get will depend on where you place the subs and how they are setup in the system.
Nothing wrong with the S510's, almost bought a pair but ended up with the Carbon specials such a huge difference compared to the s510's. I think a pair of REL Carbon special would be end game for you Terry :-)
REL have been promising the Carbon specials for a while. Maybe its becasue I said 6 Pack or bust... 😀 I hope to get a look at them 100% Will
Have you guys heard the s/812? I've got one and love it, and wondering what others' experience of it has been
@@jakus514 yeah spent a lot of time with the 812. Its similar to the 510 but has more authority and output. Even more "voluptuous"
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Voluptuous needs to be adopted by audiophiles talking about bass, no better descriptor when it's present! Glad you like it, seems like it gets little to no press but it's a great component 🤙
Order a pair of Rythmik subs and compare. Would you review JL?
Hi Terry great review as always
I recently watched a UA-cam video with John Hunter of Rel advocating that if you have a stereo pair of Rel subwoofers you can hook the high level cable directly to the speakers bypassing the amp and speaker cable, he considered it an upgrade.
Did you tried this and if so what did you think?
Hi Roger hope your well mate. I did know you can do that, but I plummed the cables in so they would be safe and out of the way and not really visible. I think everything is worth trying to see and then going with the one that seems best and then just sticking with it.
I have a pair of S510s as well. Everything REL claim their subs can do is true.
A little late but better late than sory...
I have a question:
I've got a pretty good system with big towers and good electronics. but only one rel sub.
It's very good 👍
So my question is, How much difference /improvement should I expect bay adding second one for stereo.
Is it worth it?
I have the budget but only if it's worth it.
What's your opinion?
Thanks allot 💖
Love your videos ❣️
Thanks!
Cheers for tip wow, didnt expect that mate cheers
In order to implement such a setup consisting of two speakers on stands plus two subs, you need a correspondingly larger living room ... and mostly also understanding wives and family members or sometimes neighbors ... in real life these two aspects together are rarely given for most normal people or for mostly male audiophile hifi and technic enthusiasts, according to my experiences. That's why I would rather try to choose not too large but balanced-sounding floor-standing speakers that also deliver a pleasant amount of bass, which should exist from what I`ve heard ;-)
You can cut REL's cables to your desired length and then add your own Spade connections on the ends
Yes
Can the handles on the sides of those subs be used to lift them, or are they just decorative?
If you watch the video about half way you will see 😉
You seem to love rel but a bit cautious with recommending for movie's. What subwoofer would you recommend for 50/50 movie's and music, in a 20x20 room. I have a bk electronic 12 in at the moment but leaning towards svs pc2000 pro for the front room factor and I feel you can hide them well????
Its not that I "Love" REL, I have had a lot of exposure to a lot of their products in the last few years with lots of very good experiences, I do think their more recent stuff is very good and an improvement in design and performance, but I did a calibration a few weeks ago for a very old now Q200 from RELs glory days in the 90s I think, it was still good but limited. That person has now upgraded to dual T9X and I will be going back to them in the next week or so to calibrate their system again so it will be interested to hear what the new subs can do when setup properly.
I am also not, not recommending this sub for movies, what I was saying is you can buy possibly dual 15" subs or 18" subs with 1000w+ for this money and if your chasing a lot of deep bass and high spls these subs will outperform the REL albeit from a much larger box. I think a nice sweet spot for music and movies would the larger S/812 but again this is not really designed to give you ultra deep bass but it has more muscle for more impact than the S/510. This will all depend on how you setup the system of course.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem thank you so much for replying, keep up the good work. You come across as one of the most genuine UA-camrs in the world of audio.
@@leonnoel1243 thanks Leon that means a lot, appreciate it
The new rel predator 1510 is probably great for movies! Rythmic and JL are great at subwoofers as well.
Oi! Me mate down the local has them Rel subwoorfers in his Vauxhall and he say you can hears them all through the council estate when he plays them real loud like.
Question: since they are similarly priced - how kf92 stacks against them? Is Rel better by much? In what scenario would you recommend KEF and in what REL. thanks
Thats a great question, I only have limited experience with the KEF Subs - I think they make the most sense in an all KEF wireless system. With a more traditional HiFi the RELs make more sense and high level does sound a different, I am technical measurements person for setup but REL high level does have an edge that is hard to quantify.
Now if your choosing to go a route like an NAD with an electronic crossover either or can be good and it will depend more on how you set things up. The REL will likely sound bigger and more "voluptuous" and rounded in its bass. The KEF sounds more engineered/ matter of fact in its bass delivery - I dont say that meant with criticism. Take this all with a pinch of salt as I haven't directly compared.
As much as I understand it a small subwoofer is always a bit of a trade off, so if space or wife acceptance factor is of concern, get a small one, if not, better off with a traditional design.. it's more energy efficient at well.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem one thing I was just thinking about - high pass connection downside is that we need to allow speaker to roll off naturally and majority of speakers have high distortion under 150/100 Hz. When connecting via LFE we can select any crossover point and will roll off a speaker around that point. That’s how it works in KEFs also you can even feed signal through their subs and it will output the rest to your speakers and time it all appropriately - you get more flexibility and this is good news if your speakers aren’t that good in LF department. Let your sub handle it which makes more sense to me.
@@MT-eb2dx energy efficient indeed. Spec for spec KEF kf92 is dual 9” 500w each driver vs Rel 10” 500w on paper you would think KEF would be faster. But then Rel has got better efficiency when it comes to power so all in all could be very similar. Now split between adding another kf92 and getting couple of t9x into a mix.
Hi, I am trying to understand if this type of setup (sucess) is possible with say ONLY Volume, Phase and some EQ applied. Thanks! So IF you happen to use something other than Volume, Phase and EQ in order to achieve your success can you state so... and so not 'what' you used, but merely IF more than those 3 things were used . Thanks so much! Ps. for I only have Volume, Phase and EQ available to me and so I'm wondering if I ought to even attempt this type of setup :)
Phase on the sub, volume of course eq i have to really use if I want the volume where I like it as my room is a bastard but a different rooms might be different. Impossible for me to say for you exactly John. What eq are you using
@@PursuitPerfectSystem For the two channel system that I'm considering giving this option a try in - I have at my disposal... Sub - Volume , Phase, and multiple EQ options (Audyssey, Rane PE 5 band, Audio Control 1/6 octave 6 band) and Mains - Volume (but NO Phase), and Audyssey (Auto or Manual... I tend to do Manual). No Dirac I'm afraid. So yeah, I'm hoping that this is enough in order to make a Valor attempt? ...but wasn't sure IF anything further was needed (like say Phase on the Mains, a Shelf filter on either, Summing of any kind, etc., etc.).
Has anyone purchased these used? I’d so what % of original msrp are you seeing them go for? I’m looking at a pair that is about 18 months old 1 owner. Not sure if the mfg warranty is transferable? Also looking at a pair of rythmik f12 SEs as well.
Hi,
I recently got myself the S/510 with Focal Kanta2's.
They go down to 35 hz, should i set the crossover to 45hz, or higher or lower?
The 35 Hz value is the -3dB point. My practice is to set the bass management crossover frequency one octave above that point, IYC 70 Hz.
Try both 45Hz & 70 Hz to see which sounds better to you.
Erin's Audio Corner has an excellent video explaining the decrease in distortion & compression when the lowest octaves ate ported to a sub.
In all of the recommendations to use the high level inputs, How does one get rid of the distortion when the speakers are still playing those lower octaves?
Every time I decide to "purify" my speakers' delivery and turn off the REL, it's always switched back on within 15 minutes.
@terry A lot of people say High Level connection can cause damage to amplifiers in the long run, is that true?
I have never seen or heard of that before
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Terry i just got the S/510 & want to add another one in my room, thing is i have no space for another so considering stacking them. Did you get a chance to listen to them stacked during this review? If so how did it sound? Thanks.
@@berj79 sorry no I only stacked them for the video. Maybe contact rel and ask them about it they are very helpful
Would you be doing an ATC Subwoofer C4 Mk2?
No plans for that at the moment sorry
If the Rels didn't add to the soundstage and 3D imaging like you stated in the video, then the Rels weren't properly integrated (gain and crossover) imho. Properly integrated Rels ALWAYS add to the soundstage.
Adding to the sound stage is not the same as improving the sound stage - check what I said again please
So these REL would be perfect for supporting Magnepan like 1.7i and 20.7 ?
I don´t need base support when it comes to music, Maggies are simply beautiful, fast, clear, enough base for me.
But I only run one pair of speakers in my living room and when you put on some heavy action movies the Magnepan get really fast to their limits at my loudness levels.
So I put in a active crossover togehter with my old speakers and only connecting their base drivers. It works and the Maggies get the support they need but whatever I do their is always a bit to much base, even in music where I wouldn´t have expected it, I don´t like that, when Maggies are in full control they simply sound better to me.
I guess the base is not the best or the active crossover from Behringer, the entire qualtiy is not on the level as when I connect the amp directly with the Maggies.
So I need a better crossover and a perfect matching base (or 2)
Could you help with that? REL or JL Audio are the only brands I have in focus at the moment with only a bit research.
I will try some PSaudio Aspen FR30 soon but I really want to upgrade from Magnepan 1.7i to 20.7 because I like the sound so much.
But I will run into the same problem I´m afraid, with movies the 20.7 will get to their limits too
I have the same setup.. which subs did you choose? I’m between the rhyming servo f12 subs and these rels or t9x duals as wellz
@@aceofspades6667 magnepan 1.7i only and put them into PC room.. Livingroom i went with psaudio fr30, no extra subs needed
Vs t9x?
Before my divorce six years ago, I had a large detached building in my back garden for my audio system. I had four 300W per channel MOSFET power amplifiers driving eight Tannoy 15" dual concentric speakers. Four of the speakers were in 175 litre cabinets, two in 200 litre cabinets and another two in 300 litre cabinets. The deep bass was absolutely insane. Loud deep bass shudders that felt like someone had just walked over your grave. My neighbour who was detached and about 50 feet away couldn't hear my system in their house. However, they complained that their house was shaking and causing ornaments to move on their mantelpiece. That was due to deep bass going through the ground. Now that's what I call real bass. Took me years to build the 1.2KW per channel system. I suspect this played a part in my divorce because the Wife acceptance factor was somewhat low to say the least. I also discovered that very deep loud bass isn't good for your hearing because it causes Tinnitus which is unpleasant.
I think that's where the challenge and big popularity comes in for small subwoofers, you can have fun without upsetting people. These RELs rattle my front door, to be fair so do the Missions because of how my room gain they get low down. The subs are much worse for it. My neighbours will be seeing that as well. Sorry to hear about the divorce, at least you got to have the mega system at some stage in your life, sound awesome
Thats not a bad price at all for the
Rel s510 subs I thought they was going to be much more exspensive
also I love the hi level input for timing basically a more undisturbed signal
😆 Thanks Terry
Just to clarify the price I mentioned in the video is for each sub, not the pair, I wish I had explained that clearer
Hi Terry, what size is your room?
About 17 feet long 12 half feet wide 8 half feet high
you don't actively drive a speaker, it's actually filtered, its actively driven by the amplifier only.
you really want to have a speaker behind the listen against the wall pointing towards your main speakers at a frequency of 660 Hz and below with delay and out-of-phase, that will improve your bass
nice review...what other Subs for the same price is perhaps even better than the Rels ?
for the price,Rel should include the better Rel bassline blue cables...because the ones Rel puts inside the box are terribly cheap.
Wow, how old are those Missions?
about a month
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Wow, they look the same as they did in the '80's
Was hoping for a 1508 comparison for music, thanks for the video.
The 1508 went back and you cant use them in the same way. For movie ass kicking I would get the predator. For music the 510. For both tougher one depends on the rest of the system
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Thanks Terry. I have multiple 1205's and they sounded great in a music system. Just didn't quite hit the lowest octave.
@@JPWinters whats intersting there is they probably would in my room because the room gain is crazy at low freq but a bastard higher up. Room acoustics is hard
50 yeas of audiophilia and Bass rules. Now we can have such great bass, add it or plan your system with it. Base is basic.
I've nothing against subwoofers and if you're lucky enough to have a dedicated listening room than that's great. Not sure I want two big black boxes in my living room, however. As for the RELs enhancing the bass of the TADs, if I've spent £20k on speakers they better be right without subs. Why would I buy them otherwise? Competition at this price point must be fierce so unless the TADs do something absolutely magical elsewhere in their delivery, I'd be looking to spend my money elsewhere.
Nothing to do with the speakers, its room acoustics and setup. If where you put the speakers you have bass nulls at your MLP thats not the speakers fault
@@PursuitPerfectSystem This ^^
In your opinion, for movies and music, 70/30, predators or S510
Sorry, however you tend not to cover as much of the Subwoofer "hook up and integration" as is needed for these subwoofer reviews. Please add a bit more of these details. Thank you.
Integration would be a dirac lesson i am not putting that in the review video and I spoke about hook up bassline blue cable. This is a review not a guide mate rel make loads of those videos
@@PursuitPerfectSystem I'm not asking for Dirac (or any Equalization for that matter), however as a bare minimum are you running the mains full range, are the Rels being lowpased at some point, are the Rels running in Mono or Stereo, i.e. The Basics. For not everyone takes the same approach. So yeah, just asking for 10-12 seconds of cemetery... just so that we know the approach YOU happen to be taking :)
@@johndaddabbo9383 sorry I didnt explain that more, I suppose I glossed over it. I did mention it though - high level off the amplifier is always full range its the same signal the speakers see and then its low pass filtered in the REL. That is the rel way
@@PursuitPerfectSystem OK, Thank you kindly! Just trying to understand if this type of setup (sucess) is even possible with ONLY Volume, Phase and some EQ applied. Thanks! IF you happen to use something other than Volume, Phase and EQ can you state so (not 'what' you used, but merely if more than those 3 things Thanks! ).
After all three of my REL subwoofer amps crapped out way too prematurely, and with REL refusing to support repairs, I'll never buy REL again.
I have been to REL and seen them repairing legacy subwoofers from decades ago, they support all their subwoofers so I don't understand this one. I spoke to the repair guy and the same guy has worked there for all that time.
The thumbs up is not working.
Oh wow no idea why that is
Is that Brain Salad Surgery?
I'll take one for free because I can't afford to spend that much on a toy.
Unfortunately rel subs not good for movies at all
I dont think you can make a sweeping statement like that, and its not true. What is true is not all subwoofer are created equal or to achieve the same results. Knowing what you want from a subwoofer based on your own priorities to ensure you buy the right one is important so your not left disappointed because your expectations don't align with the products design.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem respectfully disagree a little. I went through 3 of their models and all were bottoming out on lots of movies. And lots of reviews regarding issues with movies. A couple of guys from Rel came to my house and at the end I was advised put 2 subs and be careful on certain movies. The thing is I didn't spend thousands to be careful any time I want to watch a movie, don't you think? But I appreciate your thoughts I'm a big fan of your work.
@@daeejon3100 i still think the same if your pushing the sub to the point its bottoming out its not the right sub for the job. Subs only bottom out at spl levels beyond their capability at certain frequencies. If you need more than the rel offers they are not the right sub for your needs but its unlikely their bigger subs are suffering this. But again if they are you need bigger still.
Please remember i setup systems all the time. A lot of them have REL subs and I get those systems sounding awesome for movies so to say they are not good for movies is not true.
Its back to expectations. I think money spent is irrelevant if you bought a sub designed to something different to what you need. They are not all designed to do high output at extreme low freq. Some are some are not
Thank you so much for taking the time to explain this
Use the speakon cable with the lfe cable... set ur speakers to large...ul see how superb they are
It's quality over quantity ... Subwoofers setup for home theatre in a hifi system ... No thanks
I dont know what you are referring to here, but fwiw look at how human hearing works its quantity and quality that is needed for sub bass
So the more base the better the mid range sounds eh. Well that can be true in a bad two way speaker when you ad a sub to to do the lf so the speakers woofer don't have to do the lf and mid range. But to claim for example that more base via more subs improves the mid is nonsense. And for the price of one those puny REL "subwoofers" you can buy for example a PSA 18". If this is yet another case of the "small subs are faster, tighter" and whatever compared to bigger ones myth nonsense then I sigh. That's utter bs. Get as big sub as you can. The bigger the driver the less it has to work and will last longer. And always start with minimum two subs unless you have only one seating position and heavily bass trapped room. If you're building a new room or can modify current one then the best bass you can get is by infinite baffle single or double bass array. After that there's no going back to box subs.
Yes as a basic theory tone controls will increase all bass and that will include mid bass. Increasing mid bass makes vocals sound fuller and the overall sound warmer. I work with this everyday.
Sorry yes dual 18 be cool but not domestic friendly for a lot of people.
“Last longer”.. What levels do you play at? 🤣 Anyway, I think improved midrange is really about how the sound is perceived (though the human ear brain interface) also low bass can afford spatial cues to instruments that are dominant in those higher registers, increasing the sense of space and imaging. Rels are normally not setup to high pass the mains, so they would not be spared bass duties in any case.
I thought you meant mid range. What frequency do you consider mid bass? Some say it's between 50-100hz. Not domestic friendly? The're only 22" x 20" x 20.5". Can be had in any veneer if you want to pay more.
@@jasonkillsformomy the tone controls was just an example to make a point. For me 500hz and down is the critical region.
@@thepickyaudiophile Well a truck engine lasts longer than a cars engine because it's bigger and does a lot less rpm. The less anything has to work the longer it lasts. If you got the room and money then multiple 24" or 32" is the way to go. "Rels are normally not setup to high pass the mains, so they would not be spared bass duties in any case." Well if you have bookshelf speaker then there's no reason not to cross over to the sub at 80hz. Especially if it's a two way. A three way bookshelf speaker could be ok playing as low as it goes depending on the speaker, volume and listening distance.
Dude you talk to much you need to play the speakers
Come off it, such a silly comment