@@russellalesi5715 both are curious...not everyone will have equal achievements...but curiosity in a person is always admired...and it makes for an interesting life for the individual himself if he finds curiosity in something
Love listening to Prof Penrose and Lawrence all day as I often do. After all of that approaching it from different perspective including Stuart Hameroff .. still struggling to grasp the origin and essence of Consciousness without having to bring in the Supernatural OR some type of Vastly Superior Omnipotent but NOT singular intelligence. It’s quite a journey to know and understand the origins of our selves, physicality within the Universe and our mortality within the grand scheme. Fascinating individuals and dialogues like this makes my life so much more interesting and fulfilling
But Roger actually admitted that there is the possibility of there being problems that are beyond the capacity of science to be able to answer, i.e. position D. That understanding or explaining consciousness goes beyond the capacity of science so that science can never answer it. Yes, it's true that Roger does not believe that the problem of understanding or explaining consciousness is beyond the capacity of science to be able to answer, he believes that we can answer the problem of understanding or explaining consciousness, and it seems that he holds that view because he has an inkling into where the answer lies and he's kind of on track to do so, though admittedly he does not believe that he and most certainly not anyone else has managed to do that. There may be those that believe position D, that it is beyond science, but that doesn't mean it is beyond human endeavour, just that it is beyond the endeavour of science, therefore he, Roger, as a scientist (and mathematicician, he quite clearly stated that consciousness is likely beyond mathematics, as Gödel had shown that such problems also exist) would be unable to answer, were position D to be true, but that there may well be problems that are beyond the capacity of science to answer. By this I do not believe he is considering problems such as having science tell us what occurs outside a speed of light "cone" because that data can never be acquired, or what exists beyond the observable universe (same thing really, in essence), i.e. what occurs at a distance of a trillion trillion trillion light years away. For starters that may be beyond the realms of spacetime and even if it were not, given how long, with present understanding of space travel, data collection and the speed of light and how we are, at present and in the foreseeable future, based on our understanding of the physical universe, it is literally impossible to know. I believe that when he was referring to problems that are beyond the capacity of science to answer are even more intractable than those kinds of questions. It is refreshing to hear from a scientist, as great as he is, that hasn't allowed his achievements (as great as they are) to have gone to his head and allowed arrogance to cloud his thinking, which it seems that the vast percentage of scientists tend to fall foul of. Many scientists seem to believe (as Roger asserted) position A with regard to explaining consciousness, that, to paraphrase, consciousness is the result of a vast array of computations. Dennett expounds this view quite succinctly. Position B follows on from A, in that yes we can have a computer that can *simulate* consciousness, in that all the reactions, responses and abilities *seem* to be there but the machine would not have any awareness, no knowledge, and therefore or certainly not be conscious, even though it would appear to be. If such a machine were capable of lying, which it probably wouldn't be able to, because that would mean it had awareness, but if there were some way of it being able to lie without having awareness, it would be impossible to distinguish whether or not it were conscious, at least it doesn't seem possible, any means to determine such a difference. Roger's position, C, that consciousness is something beyond computation, does seem the most cogent and realistic, other than D, which, as a scientist with integrity, tenacity and brilliance, it's understandable he hasn't accepted D because that would mean admitting defeat to something he cares about deeply. The other positions are either too shallow (A) or a cop-out, i.e. avoiding the question (B). However, now that all the ground has been covered, it is possible to query the point made concerning "not referring to" among other things, "the supernatural". As a scientist, but also, a wise one, Roger understands the political climate in which science operates at present and there are trends of hysteria that abound in any age, so it seems likely that he has quite cleverly pointed out that there are areas of human endeavour that are beyond science, but not foolish enough to refer to them as supernatural. Obviously, at present, based on the discussions in this video, it seems that consciousness *may* be supernatural, i.e. position D, though not necessarily. Regardless as to whether it is or it isn't, and obviously there are people who are unwilling to accept the *possibility* (regardless of how seemingly improbable) of certain phenomena having a supernatural explanation. It appears from your comment that you yourself are unwilling to accept that it is possible for *any* phenomena to have or be supernatural (in) origin. Given the intractable nature of the problem of consciousness, life and the mere existence of matter and energy, (though it is thrilling to follow Roger's progress) there does seem to be no other explanation other than position D. Which, although Roger, being a scientist, and a wise one at that, isn't so daft to refer to position D as referring to the supernatural, what else does one term phenomena beyond scientific inquiry or explanation ?
What a fascinating conversation! In Advaita (non-dual) Vedanta, they call this a category mistake; you can never explain consciousness with objective evidence since it's not an object (physical or subtle) produced by some activities of brain or mind. Thanks and expect more such videos 😊
Consciousness isn't strictly objective in Penrose's theory, it's built into the fundamental nature of the fine scale structure of the universe, antecedent to objective space-time- there's no universe without consciousness according to him. I'd say it a bit stronger, that mind is all there is. He describes how proto-consciousness, essentially the result of sufficient mass displacement, gives the appearance of this being distinguished from that, and hence the ability for memory formation. If enough cells get together, they 'orchestrate' this proto-consciousness into (what I might call) everyday 'medical' conscious- that which goes away under anesthesia. Neither he nor Hammeroff advertise this almost panpsychist part of their theory but it's actually quite radical and not science-as-usual... I think a lot of students of Vedanta or Buddhism would be pleasantly surprised if they took a gander at it :). I agree though, ultimately words or equations will always be mere shadows.
Good to see this video. So tired of technology obsessed delusions of so many regarding consciousness being explained away as something that can eventually be “simulated” to then arrive at “actual” consciousness. Consciousness being engineered through simulation is a paradox if I’ve ever heard one.
What do you mean or seek to convey by the ward "consciousness"? That you have to idea you will illustrate by signally failing to set out what you mean or seek to convey by the ward "consciousness" If people knew how to grasp for themselves what passes in their thoughts when they hear or use the word ”conscious or consciousness” then most of them would have to admit-if of course they intended to be sincere-that the word carries no exact notion whatever for them. Catching by ear simply the accustomed consonance, the meaning of which they assume that they know, it is as if they say to themselves “Ah, consciousness, I know what this is,” and serenely go on thinking. Should one deliberately arrest their attention on this? word and know how to probe them to find just what they understand by it, they will at first be plainly as is said “embarrassed,” but quickly pulling themselves together, that is to say, quickly deceiving themselves, and recalling the first definition of the word that comes to mind, they will then offer it as their own, although, in fact, they had not thought of it before.
@@redwolf7929 did I use those exact words? Take my advice never preface a question with so, for few with any wits entertain such questions, for obvious reasons.
Great to see at least 100k views on these types of brilliant discussions, SIr Penrose's works have huge implications if we can understand the set of laws that govern quantum mechanics in a better way.
Go, the board game, is a demonstration that Penrose is catching up. In recent time components of computing have become incredibly more dense and qbits of single computers are passing a hundred. Examples of articles published in leading newspapers composed by computers, have seemingly passed the Turing test. The understanding of conciousness in some circles, is advancing in bearly understood but stupendous ways. Socially we might well prepare for this and explore it's implications.
The universe can, and does respond to and react to every form of energy and "universal" element and particle, and "universal" electrical activity, and spiritual Consciousness! That relationship is where the study begins the greatest relationship - ever!
Conciousness, which begins from awareness,... requires reasoning of all of the information collected from the body parts that sense the environment around and within! My Conciousness is not part of my body, in fact, it is anxious, at times,.. about being freed from the body, and into the universe. Conciousness is critical feedback to the universe (which allowed just the perfect place for our bodies to live, thrive, and feed consciousness back into the universe) itself. The higher our Consciousness grows, the more it becomes,,... aware, respectful,...able to help what the universe is doing, that it might even continue mankind's existence in the Universe.
Quantum physics allows humans being to be connected to the cosmos. This connection translates meaning of consciousness. I am glad that we both came to the same theory.
This theory explains a deeper concept of time, taking ‘the moment of now’ out of the subjective world and explaining it as part of a physical process, by using physics. We know a great deal about the mechanisms of physical reality but nothing about the nature of our immediate experience. So what is the missing connection between our understanding of the physical and our stream of consciousness awareness. This theory has come to the conclusion shared by many spiritual traditions, that consciousness is universal in all of physical existence. That an interactive process between the light of the electromagnetic spectrum and the atoms of the periodic table have evolved to form the depth and richness of conscious awareness. We have a continuous process of energy exchange forming our ever-changing world with an emergent future unfolding photon by photon. The wave particle duality of light and matter in the form of electrons forms a blank canvas that we can interact with forming the possible into the actual. This is like saying that EM fields are emergent and we have an emergent future relative to the atoms of the periodic table and the wavelength of the light. By using the dynamic structure of this process, we can explain conscious awareness in its most simple form has electrical activity in the brain that is aware of its own electrical potential. Consciousness is always in the forefront of the creative process therefore each individual is able to look back in time in all directions from ‘the moment of now’ in the center of their reference frame at the beauty of the stars. This personalization of space and time gives us the concept of ‘mind’ with each one of us having our own unique personal view of the Universe with an uncertain ∆×∆pᵪ≥h/4π probabilistic future. The flow of Time ∆E ∆t ≥ h/2π as a process of continuous energy exchange and our consciousness as a continuous stream of unbroken ever-changing flow of ideas, feelings dreams hopes perceptions and emotions are interlinked.
The age of the video does not diminish its relevancy. Penrose started out sounding a little woo-woo in his beliefs . . I RELAXED after hearing his last few statements expressing his opinion that consciousness would be eventually understood by science as a process of physical mechanisms.
He sounded fairly emotional and that always happens when the world is presented with a mystery. I admit to know nothing about consciousness, but that no reason to go overly emotional about it. Until we know, we must admit we don't know
‘Eliminate the impossible, what’s left must be the truth, however improbable’. The trouble is, are we yet certain about what is impossible or improbable?
Sir Roger, although I do not share his atheistic perspective, appears very likable. Those who are immersed in the material world miss the wonder of consciousness (now the hard problem for philosophy, and mind likely elemental; emerging with quantum events). That is why I am happy to have a religious perspective. The definition of religion is that to which we are bound. It saved humanity from the dark occult before the age of reason. It will likely save humanity from the new threats: Eliminative Materialism and Trans humanism; the latest atheistic horrors in the pipeline.
What Sir Penrose says about mathematical problems which aren’t computationally soluble led me to an interesting thought, particularly in regards to the problem he uses as an example: if one combined a quantum computer and optimisation algorithm with this problem, a computationally reasonable sub space of the (presumably infinite) potentialities could be created, which might create a computationally reducible way of answering the question.
I have a lot of RESPECT for roger penrose BUT he is COMPLETELY INCORRECT about (future) Consciousness in computers, i believe facebook or google pit two LEARNINGS A.I. against each after x amount of learning the ai started to LIE to one another after that even more x amount of leaning the AI BOTH AI's CREATED THEIR OWN LANGUAGE so the DEVELOPERS of the AI's could/would NOT KNOW what the AI's were upto (so both AI's learned/understood they were being watched/monitored by the developers, I believe the developer just shut down both the AI's down after that, roger is probably thinking of us BUILDING AI we can't/won't be able to do that but we WILL BE ABLE to create AI's that will be eventually achieve consciousness through EARNING IT (it is EXTREMELY NAIVE TO THINK AI WILL NOT BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE CONSCIOUSNESS
Could it be that understanding is linked to intent? That understanding implies some sense of purpose, and purpose only emerges with intent. And computers, so far, have no autonomous intent. Only the intent we programme into them
AI is a closed system - it could be creative only in the boudaries of the knowledge the humans insert in it, through recombination. Humans are an open system, they are endlessly creative
I'm a time and space traveller - bet, U2. ALL. Just I realize what does it mean, most of you don't. Cuz I'm the most curious and the worst badass eight galaxies around.
@@illustriouschin Yes, they are - sometimes we discover, sometimes we create. Until there's something to be discovered and there are trillions of things, maybe more, to be discovered humans will/should be inventive. The alternative is back on the trees.
@@illustriouschin Humans are the biological expression of the Universal Quantum Intellect. When the last stops to exist humans will stop to be creative. Unfortunately physics, genetics and biology are still on a very low level. Amen.
The best example that I can think of to support the idea of non-computational understanding is the way a human baby learns to understand the world through language. Noam Chomsky investigated for years to try and find the mechanism of learning language, and he could not find it. He ended up calling it "The Language Acquisition Device (LAD)" but he never was able to describe what it is, just that it must exist. Every good parent knows the feeling of seeing linguistic consciousness arise in another human being. Yes, the child is learning the sounds and shapes of the words, and it pieces together meaning from understanding. But HOW is it doing it from a computational null point? The answer is (I think) that the mind is non-computational, and that the LAD is related in some way to the quantum nature of the mind.
"If you wish to thoroughly understand all Buddhas of the past, present and future, then you should view the nature of the whole universe as being created by mind alone." Avatamsaka Sutra
Imagine a person walking on a well-worn path in a dense forest. They are comfortable with the familiar route and the predictable surroundings. Suddenly, a new path emerges, leading to uncharted territory with unfamiliar sights and sounds. This new path represents a new scientific discovery that challenges their existing beliefs and understanding. Just like in the forest, humans can find it difficult to leave their comfortable path of established knowledge and venture into the unknown of new discoveries. It can be unsettling to confront ideas that go against what we have always believed to be true. This discomfort can lead to resistance and skepticism towards accepting these new findings. Furthermore, factors such as limited exposure to new information, fear of what is not understood, and adherence to traditional ways of thinking can all contribute to the hesitance in embracing new scientific discoveries. However, it is crucial to remember that science is a journey of exploration and discovery. Just as the forest continues to grow and change, so does our understanding of the world through scientific advancements. It is important for individuals to stay curious, open-minded, and willing to challenge their own beliefs in order to continue growing intellectually.
I agree with Penrose that there has to be something quantum-yet-to-be-discovered that is non-computational about conciousness, otherwise we would only be a sum of ones and zeros from all our pre-historic biological experiences. Plato gave a great analogy on this in his Allegory of the Cave. If everything was computational there would be no Isaac Newton or other sudden geniuses before their time, no blind master painters, no Mozarts, and humans would not have "appreciation" for triviality or things, not feel love nor loss. Probably not until we can completely interface the brain with computers and visualise it down to a Planck length will we ever get a picture of what's truly going on.
Dear Sir Roger Penrose - How do you account for Leela, Lc0 and other neural net based chess computers absolutely beating out the most sophisticated brute force machines? It is clear that we can program a computer to mimic the way human minds work and even in this venue we are getting close to true computational understanding of chess.
The problem is that we have to use consciousness to understand consciousness. To understand a system it must be observed from the outside. Can we observe consciousness from its outside? Also, is consciousness a result of the Big Bang which has been explained through computational processes? It seems to me that the idea of a supernatural being living outside the system of consciousness might have created consciousness itself and we are bound by it. Why is this idea completely discarded and seemingly not debatable? Which physics laws would it conflict with?
Which came first, consciousness or life? If human consciousness can be spread like jam throughtout the Universe, does "being" become more important than knowing? (assume consciousness is not limited by the speed of light.)
I am so glad that Sir Roger included animals in his suggestion that this special understanding is common to all. I have always disliked the assertion that we humans are somehow superior with all the 'blessed by a God' rubbish. Living with an animal for just a short time you can see the commonalities, all the attributes we have, they also possess.
Except we are exceptionally superior !!! Thanks to the *kind* of cerebral cortex we have and what we have learned to do with it what we have done with it, because of what we have and what we have done. Unless of course you think extra-dimensional alien lizards built the pyramids? This woman ... ua-cam.com/video/EvSA1qhBq4M/v-deo.html ... starts off saying there's nothing special about us or our brains, but then points out that in fact, who and what we are and what we do gives us something no other animal has. We have an awareness that is *way* beyond the capabilities of almost any other animal. All Roger admitted to was that it may be possible that *some* animals may have some kind of awareness. It's likely that the vast number of animals' awareness' are so dim, that compared to us they are in abject darkness and ignorance. Virtual zombies, simply because they are *not* self aware !!! Some primates *may* be developing that way, certainly bonobos, not sure about any others, they seem to be somewhere in between unconscious automatons and bonobos. Sensitive to their environment but not them (their) *selves* compared to bonobos certainly and definitively compared to humans. A recent study into dolphin intelligence that took a broader perspective to better understand the limits and capabilities of the methodologies used to understand the research tools employed discovered major flaws in our approach to understanding animal intelligence. These flaws basically proved that the researchers were not properly investigating the dolphins' intelligence per se, but rather they were measuring specific sets of behavioural patterns that matched what humans would do in similar scenarios, thus all the research was able to show was, given certain circumstances, would the dolphins behave like humans. After further investigation, the researchers concluded that the reason why previous research was merely comparing how similar the dolphins acted like humans rather than measuring their "dolphin intelligence" was because the researchers did not know what "dolphin intelligence" was. On investigating why the researchers did not know this was because there is no standard definition of what intelligence is. As a species we may well be too smart for our own good. Some of the people with the best education within their respective societies are politicians and top corporate executives. They are, also, coincidentally, demographically, more likely to be at worse psychotic or at best capable of displaying, at ease, sociopathic tendencies. It would be useful would it not, if, before taking office, *all* politicians and corporate executives (and ... anyone with executive level capacity in trusts (charitable or otherwise) finance, commerce and banking, were, by law, required to take courses in developing kindness, compassion and empathy for their fellow human beings and indeed all living entities and the environment that sustains them ? Yeah, humans are without doubt *exceptional* !!! Exceptionally good and exceptionally bad, but only morally. From an intelligence pov, we're *massively* brilliant, even those of us with only double digit IQ's, whatever that means !!!
True creativity, the desire for knowledge, and the innate lust for procreation are the ultimate watersheds in the course of the Artificial Intelligence’s development. In many ways, AI is already by orders of magnitude faster and more efficient that us, but the day it becomes more creative, ambitious, adventurous, knowledge seeking, and endowed with replicative lust as well, then the whole of humanity is obsolete.
Similar to mathematical computation for physical reality, consciousness might be described by a logical programming. Just as math equations can be used for physical reality, a logical program can likely be developed for consciousness.
On the right track when pursue difference between Schrodinger equation / quantum mechanics and classical measurement / observation for consciousnessness. Classical measurement / observation does not go far enough into quantum reality.
"D" is the correct answer. We can't think beyond mind hence will never know true consciousness but it is possible if we drop body-mind (not easy and is beyond logic) the leftover is consciousness.
It isn't space-time. It's space-time-conciousness. Space is meaningless without time. Time is useless without matter. Both are allowed to exist thanks to the consciousnesses that observe them. You can't have any of these without the other two.
@@pearz420 I shouldn't have to do your research and hold your hand for you. Go google quantum mechanics. Learn about the double slit experiment (observers can change outcomes) or quantum entanglement (space and time don't 'exist' but are a single point stretched out).
Something seems to be happening at the micro level here that defies our understanding, and I find it intriguing how the tiniest structures bind together to create life, and ultimately consciousness. Even the basic nature of deterministic will and procreation in the tiny organisms are fascinating, even as we have yet to define those types of creatures as having consciousness. I have always wondered whether there is some inherent drive in the tiniest structures that is not just a reaction to the environment, but a base desire to experience that environment. And no, I am not talking about God here, but some type of force that we have yet to quantify - some type of basic unit of consciousness that is trying to fight against entropy - but always fails.
@@QED_ Roger was 75, then, and Robert 63. Both are still going strong, especially, Penrose at 87. I see Penrose videos, new ones, constantly. Thanks to Robert Kuhn too for all his efforts over the years.
so what i think is the ability to modify your belief of rules in such a way as they are upgraded over time is what Consciousness is and the ability to adjust an algorithm or RULEset as our understanding or its understanding evolves this kinda is how evolution kinda works by taking the ones that can survive forward
The problem is that most scientists refuse to accept anything mystical and visa versa, when science and mysticism absolutely need one another to make complete sense.
Human evolution must be considered in relation to the the development of the brain/consciousness. Frederick Engeles noted that the developments of the hands, with it becoming bipedal, and . . . going through all that and survive or adapted better. It is that evolutionary process or as he call it Labor, that made consciousness possible.
@@dare-er7sw Such respectable view encloses within one paradox. If it is so it will mean that what human consciousness reach compare with others living species there's no difference... For instance the own consciousness of a chimpanzee is equal to a frog? There's plenty of evidence that shows different levels of complexity and differentiation in consciousness terms.
@@CrystalPalace1861 It's reflected consciousness in each specie as per Upanishads. They were written over 3000 years ago and ask the same fundamental question known as the hard problem of consciousness in science today. Then there are near death experience accounts. What's going on? Something... but the universe lacks any proof of one universal consciousness. There's no objective evidence for it but I'm having a hard time dismissing the thousands of NDE accounts. Dr. George Ritchie and Dr. Eben Alexander. Two very famous cases now.
Anything can be explained with enough reductionism, what you won't be able to do is PREDICT it, which is the true measure of understanding. There will be something missing from your explanation. Unless you are suggesting that the Hard Problem of Consciousness isn't.
I think consciousness is prior to all things...or a better way to put it is that we are consciousness and matter is just a way of seeing or experiencing,everything is energy..think about it, what’s the alternative billions of years of matter floating around and then consciousness suddenly arises in animals then humans?
Before we consider asking whether a computer is conscious, we should ask whether Sir Penrose is conscious. I believe in evidence rather than assertion, so I'd have to pick some things that I thought indicated that he was conscious (or not.) Whatever evidence I picked, I'd then have to be fair about applying that evidence toward whether a computer is conscious. In real life, our evidence is probably that he looks like us, he says he's conscious if we ask, and that he has reasonably complex behavior. And we will end up using that same standard for our own creations, whether or not that's good evidence. If it's good evidence for judging Sir Penrose's consciousness, it's good evidence for judging the consciousness of a computer; if it's bad evidence for judging the consciousness of a computer, then it's bad evidence for judging the consciousness of a person. Some of us might go further and ask whether we ourselves actually are conscious. What is the evidence that we are?
So consciousness is the next step in nature's evolution.Mr Penrose is saying that all the laws of nature discovered so far and their implications and applications ,are not enough . But he is again going to go in the same direction to search for consciousness as he mentioned in his last statement.
People loose conscious after an accident, by inhering alcohol, while sleeping. Sleeping is gradual, and drunkenes. It's hard to realize the presice moment when we start being concious. During childhood our images are blurd until some time after 3 when we also learn to understand language. Little children start taking without having an idea of what they say. Eventually, they stop repeating and develop self interes. They start calling everything mine, mine. It could be some part of the brain that disactivate when we fall asleep or when someone gets drunk, or when someone face an accident. It could be a chemical reaction, who knows?
The Law myoho-renge-kyo represents the identity of what some scientists refer to as the ‘unified field of all consciousnesses’. In other words, it’s a sound vibration that is the essence of all of existence and non-existence, the ultimate creative force behind planets, stars, nebulae, people, animals, trees, fish, birds, and all phenomena, manifest or latent. All matter and intelligence are simply waves or ripples manifesting to and from this core source. Consciousness (enlightenment) is itself the true creator of everything that is, ever was and ever will be, right down to the minutest particles of dust, each being an individual ripple or wave. The big difference between chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo and most other conventional prayers is that instead of depending on a ‘middleman’ to connect us to our state of enlightenment, we’re able to do it ourselves by tapping directly into it by way of self-produced sound vibration. On the subject of ‘Who or What Is God?’, when we compare the concept of ‘God’, as a separate entity that is forever watching down on us, to Nichiren’s teachings, the true omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence of what most people call ‘God’ is our enlightenment, which exists nowhere else but within us. When the disciples asked Jesus where the Kingdom of God is, didn’t he tell them that it was within them? Some say that ‘God’ is an entity that can never be seen. I think that the vast amount of information that is constantly being conveyed via electromagnetic waves gives us proof of how an invisible state of ‘God’ could actually exist. It’s widely known that certain data being relayed by way of electromagnetic waves has the potential to help bring about extraordinary and powerful effects, including instant global awareness of something or mass emotional reaction. As well as many other things, it’s also common knowledge that these waves can easily be used to detonate a bomb or to even enable NASA to control the movements of a robot as far away as the Moon or Mars. However, none of this is possible without a receiver to decode the information that is being transmitted. Without the receiver, the information would remain impotent. In a very similar way, it’s important for us to have our ‘receiver’ switched on so that we can activate a clear and precise understanding of our life, all other life and what we and all else that exists truly is. Chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo helps us to achieve this because it allows us to reach into the core of our enlightenment and switch it on. That’s because the sound vibration of myoho-renge-kyo represents the combination of the three major laws that underlie all existence. Myoho represents the Law of latency and manifestation (Nature) and consists of two alternating states. One state of myo is where everything in life that’s not obvious to us exists. This includes our stored memories when we’re not thinking about them, our hidden potential and inner emotions whenever they’re not being expressed, our desires, our fears, our wisdom, happiness, karma, and more importantly, our enlightenment. The other state, ho, is where everything in Life exists whenever it becomes obvious to us, such as when a thought pops up from within our memory, whenever we experience or express our emotions, or whenever a good or bad effect manifests from our karma. When anything becomes apparent, it simply means that it has come out of the state of ‘myo’ (dormancy/latency) and into a state of ho (manifestation). It’s simply the difference between consciousness and unconsciousness, being awake or asleep, or knowing and not knowing something. The second law, renge, governs and controls the functions of myoho, ren meaning cause and ge meaning effect. The two laws of myoho and renge, both functions together simultaneously, as well as underlies all spiritual and physical existence. The final and third part of the tri-combination, kyo, is what allows the law myoho to be able to integrate with the law renge. It’s the great, invisible thread of energy that fuses and connects together all Life and matter, as well as the past, present and future. It is often termed the Universal Law of Communication. Perhaps it could even be compared to the string theory that some scientists now suspect exists. Just as our body cells, thoughts, feelings and all else are constantly fluctuating within us, everything in the world around us and beyond is also in a constant state of flux, in accordance with these three laws. In fact, more things are going back and forth between the two states of myo and ho in a single moment than it would ever be possible for us to calculate or describe. And it doesn't matter how big or small, important or trivial that anything may appear to be, everything that’s ever existed in the past exists now or will exist in the future, exists only because of the workings of myoho-renge-kyo. These three laws are also the basis of the four fundamental forces and if they didn't function, neither we nor anything else could go on existing. Simply put, all forms of existence, including the seasons, day and night, birth, death and so on, are all moving forward in an ongoing flow of continuation, rhythmically reverting back and forth between the two universal states of myo and ho in absolute accordance with renge and by way of kyo. Even stars are dying and being reborn in accordance with the workings of what the combination myoho-renge-kyo represents. Nam, or Namu, on the other hand, is a password or a key; it allows us to reach deep into our life and fuse with or become one with myoho-renge-kyo. On a more personal basis, nothing ever happens by chance or coincidence, it’s the causes that we’ve made in our past, or are presently making, that determine how these laws function uniquely in each of our lives from moment to moment, as well in our environment. By facing east, in harmony with the direction that the Earth is turning, and rhythmically chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo for a minimum of ten minutes daily, anyone can experience actual proof of its positive effects in their life. In so doing, we can pierce through even the thickest layers of our karma and activate our Buddha Nature (the enlightened state). We’re then able to summon forth the wisdom needed to challenge, overcome and change our negative circumstances into positive ones. It brings forth the wisdom that can free us from the ignorance and stupidity that is preventing us from accepting and being proud of the person that we truly are, regardless of our race, colour, gender or sexual preference. We are also able to see and understand our circumstances and an environment more clearly, as well as attract and connect with any needed external beneficial forces and situations. Actual proof soon becomes apparent to anyone who chants the words Nam-myoho-renge-kyo on a regular daily basis. Everything is subject to the law of Cause and Effect, so the strength of the result from chanting depends on dedication, sincerity and determination. To explain it more simply, the difference could be compared to making a sound on a piano, creating a melody, or producing a song and so on. NB: There are frightening, disturbing sounds and there are tranquil and relaxing sounds. It's the emotional result from any sound that can trigger off a mood or even instantly change one. When chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo each day you are producing a sound vibration that is the password to your true inner-self - this soon becomes apparent when you start reassessing your views on various things, such as your fears and desires etc. The important way to get the best result when chanting is not to see things in a conventional way (difficult to achieve but can be done), rather than reaching out to an external source, you need to reach into your own life and bring your needs and desires to fruition from within, including any help that you may need. Think of it as a seed within you that you are bringing sunshine and water to in order for it to grow, blossom and bring forth fruit or flowers. It’s important to understand that everything that we need in life, all the answers and potential to achieve our dreams, already exist within us. ua-cam.com/video/6CZ0XJqWRr4/v-deo.html OLIVIA NEWTON-JOHN sings about Nam-myoho-renge-kyo
Can anyone explain why the shape-filling a plane problem is not in principle liable to computational explanation, i.e. that there cannot be in principle an algorithm that could solve the question of whether a (finite?) number of polygons could fill a plane without leaving any gaps?
If the period before the big bang went from high entropy / low temperature tiny state to low entropy / high temperature small dense state, could this dynamic have happened from a black hole?
I can't get the meat of his argument around 9:00 - 9:30, related to godel's incompleteness. If anyone understand better and can rephrase it, I'd be interested, thanks.
I'm going to establish an AI startup in no time. The corporate name is 'GNT+P', and 'P' means 'Sir Roger Penrose' here. Although not entirely, I agree to his mind(consciousness, AI, etc.)-related opinion.
When the energy of consciousness became aware of its own existence it began to understand the concept of evolutionary growth and development. This was the beginning of consciousness own evolutionary experiance of existence that resulted in consciousness becoming a creative energy. The one conscious experience of existence came to the realisation and understanding that it needed to be many. It became the universe.
I believe in some form of 'extended mind' theory together with downward causation. Unfortunately I can't find a counterargument to reductionism at the moment.
Reductionism would hold that thoughts are uniquely characterized by brain states, due to chaos one person's brain state could never be expected to coincide exactly with another person's, and hence we could never expect two people to entertain - even if just for a moment - the same thought. I think we do believe in the objective reality of certain thoughts however, there may be topological differences or what ever, but we can both think about the number 12, maybe to you it's big and to me it is small, but there are objective features as well, we both encountered the same 12. We will both be unsure about some common detail of the number 12 and if we investigated that detail independently we would come to the same conclusion. Something rather impossible from the reductionist point of view.
Can the inanimate physical world exist without consciousness to see it? Imagine all conscious entities no longer exist. Does the universe continue on in darkness. Not easy to imagine. Everything proceeds from consciousness. All the marvelous theories and observations of humanity were born of curious conscious beings.
Well the chess analogy just crumbled: computers now are just told the rules and nothing else and within two hours have taught themselves how to be better than any human ever. I think that is as good as human understanding with regards to chess.
Sir Roger sounds like such an affable human being, full of warmth and wisdom. 💡
Amen to that!
What a pleasant chap Sir Roger is.
Yes. So clever on an almost ethereal plain and yet so 'approachably' humble.
Indeed.
He surely is 😊👍👋
a scholar...and a gentleman.
Yes yes quite right.
Penrose at his best here; extremely clear thinking, but also he demystifies complex issues with extremely clear explanations.
All of these interviews with Sir Roger are absolute gold, thank you so much for this! 🙏
What a fascinating discussion! Wonderful contributions from both these giants. Thank you
Both?
@@russellalesi5715 both are curious...not everyone will have equal achievements...but curiosity in a person is always admired...and it makes for an interesting life for the individual himself if he finds curiosity in something
I agree with both of you. You're both giants !
Anyone you suppose to have more wits and learning than you you call a "giant " do you?
My brain is exploding from listening to Penrose and reading a YT comments section at the same time
Love listening to Prof Penrose and Lawrence all day as I often do.
After all of that approaching it from different perspective including Stuart Hameroff .. still struggling to grasp the origin and essence of Consciousness without having to bring in the Supernatural OR some type of Vastly Superior Omnipotent but NOT singular intelligence.
It’s quite a journey to know and understand the origins of our selves, physicality within the Universe and our mortality within the grand scheme.
Fascinating individuals and dialogues like this makes my life so much more interesting and fulfilling
But Roger actually admitted that there is the possibility of there being problems that are beyond the capacity of science to be able to answer, i.e. position D. That understanding or explaining consciousness goes beyond the capacity of science so that science can never answer it. Yes, it's true that Roger does not believe that the problem of understanding or explaining consciousness is beyond the capacity of science to be able to answer, he believes that we can answer the problem of understanding or explaining consciousness, and it seems that he holds that view because he has an inkling into where the answer lies and he's kind of on track to do so, though admittedly he does not believe that he and most certainly not anyone else has managed to do that. There may be those that believe position D, that it is beyond science, but that doesn't mean it is beyond human endeavour, just that it is beyond the endeavour of science, therefore he, Roger, as a scientist (and mathematicician, he quite clearly stated that consciousness is likely beyond mathematics, as Gödel had shown that such problems also exist) would be unable to answer, were position D to be true, but that there may well be problems that are beyond the capacity of science to answer. By this I do not believe he is considering problems such as having science tell us what occurs outside a speed of light "cone" because that data can never be acquired, or what exists beyond the observable universe (same thing really, in essence), i.e. what occurs at a distance of a trillion trillion trillion light years away. For starters that may be beyond the realms of spacetime and even if it were not, given how long, with present understanding of space travel, data collection and the speed of light and how we are, at present and in the foreseeable future, based on our understanding of the physical universe, it is literally impossible to know. I believe that when he was referring to problems that are beyond the capacity of science to answer are even more intractable than those kinds of questions.
It is refreshing to hear from a scientist, as great as he is, that hasn't allowed his achievements (as great as they are) to have gone to his head and allowed arrogance to cloud his thinking, which it seems that the vast percentage of scientists tend to fall foul of.
Many scientists seem to believe (as Roger asserted) position A with regard to explaining consciousness, that, to paraphrase, consciousness is the result of a vast array of computations. Dennett expounds this view quite succinctly. Position B follows on from A, in that yes we can have a computer that can *simulate* consciousness, in that all the reactions, responses and abilities *seem* to be there but the machine would not have any awareness, no knowledge, and therefore or certainly not be conscious, even though it would appear to be. If such a machine were capable of lying, which it probably wouldn't be able to, because that would mean it had awareness, but if there were some way of it being able to lie without having awareness, it would be impossible to distinguish whether or not it were conscious, at least it doesn't seem possible, any means to determine such a difference.
Roger's position, C, that consciousness is something beyond computation, does seem the most cogent and realistic, other than D, which, as a scientist with integrity, tenacity and brilliance, it's understandable he hasn't accepted D because that would mean admitting defeat to something he cares about deeply. The other positions are either too shallow (A) or a cop-out, i.e. avoiding the question (B).
However, now that all the ground has been covered, it is possible to query the point made concerning "not referring to" among other things, "the supernatural". As a scientist, but also, a wise one, Roger understands the political climate in which science operates at present and there are trends of hysteria that abound in any age, so it seems likely that he has quite cleverly pointed out that there are areas of human endeavour that are beyond science, but not foolish enough to refer to them as supernatural. Obviously, at present, based on the discussions in this video, it seems that consciousness *may* be supernatural, i.e. position D, though not necessarily. Regardless as to whether it is or it isn't, and obviously there are people who are unwilling to accept the *possibility* (regardless of how seemingly improbable) of certain phenomena having a supernatural explanation. It appears from your comment that you yourself are unwilling to accept that it is possible for *any* phenomena to have or be supernatural (in) origin.
Given the intractable nature of the problem of consciousness, life and the mere existence of matter and energy, (though it is thrilling to follow Roger's progress) there does seem to be no other explanation other than position D. Which, although Roger, being a scientist, and a wise one at that, isn't so daft to refer to position D as referring to the supernatural, what else does one term phenomena beyond scientific inquiry or explanation ?
hat do you mean or seek to convey by the ward "consciousness"?
Gosh I love listening to Penrose. Great chat.
So what your saying is you would bang him 🤔 nice
What a fascinating conversation! In Advaita (non-dual) Vedanta, they call this a category mistake; you can never explain consciousness with objective evidence since it's not an object (physical or subtle) produced by some activities of brain or mind. Thanks and expect more such videos 😊
Consciousness isn't strictly objective in Penrose's theory, it's built into the fundamental nature of the fine scale structure of the universe, antecedent to objective space-time- there's no universe without consciousness according to him. I'd say it a bit stronger, that mind is all there is. He describes how proto-consciousness, essentially the result of sufficient mass displacement, gives the appearance of this being distinguished from that, and hence the ability for memory formation. If enough cells get together, they 'orchestrate' this proto-consciousness into (what I might call) everyday 'medical' conscious- that which goes away under anesthesia. Neither he nor Hammeroff advertise this almost panpsychist part of their theory but it's actually quite radical and not science-as-usual... I think a lot of students of Vedanta or Buddhism would be pleasantly surprised if they took a gander at it :). I agree though, ultimately words or equations will always be mere shadows.
Conciseness, maybe be encoded at a quantum level. Could traverse aeons.
What a extraordinary discussion
Filmed in the UK in 2007.
Lol person Quantum Electro Dynamics . B4 scrolling down I wondered "how old is this interview, since sir Penrose now day's looks much older".
@@UtraVioletDreams And now . . . he looks much nobeler.
Congratulations Sir Roger Penrose! ❤👏👏👏
I love Sir Roger, may God bless him and draw him to faith in his son Jesus Christ.
We don’t have much time. Learn as much as we can from him.
Bloody fascinating. Great video, great channel.
So good to hear such conversation. Fascinating stuff.
I can listen to Sir Roger all day. This guy forgets more in a day than I could ever know.
The best and most intelligent discussion on the mystery of consciousness that I have ever seen.
hat do you mean or seek to convey by the ward "consciousness"?
What an illuminating conversation. could listen to this for hours..
My favorite scientist and mathematician.
Good to see this video. So tired of technology obsessed delusions of so many regarding consciousness being explained away as something that can eventually be “simulated” to then arrive at “actual” consciousness.
Consciousness being engineered through simulation is a paradox if I’ve ever heard one.
What do you mean or seek to convey by the ward "consciousness"?
That you have to idea you will illustrate by signally failing to set out what you mean or seek to convey by the ward "consciousness"
If people knew how to grasp for themselves what
passes in their thoughts when they hear or use the word
”conscious or consciousness” then most of them would have to admit-if of course they intended to be sincere-that the word carries
no exact notion whatever for them. Catching by ear simply the accustomed consonance, the meaning of which
they assume that they know, it is as if they say to themselves “Ah, consciousness, I know what this is,” and serenely go on thinking.
Should one deliberately arrest their attention on this?
word and know how to probe them to find just what they
understand by it, they will at first be plainly as is said
“embarrassed,” but quickly pulling themselves together,
that is to say, quickly deceiving themselves, and recalling
the first definition of the word that comes to mind, they
will then offer it as their own, although, in fact, they had not thought of it before.
@@vhawk1951kl so your saying that you believe most people don't have a suitable definition for the word consciousness?
@@redwolf7929 did I use those exact words?
Take my advice never preface a question with so, for few with any wits entertain such questions, for obvious reasons.
Great discussion with Sir Roger as usual.
Great to see at least 100k views on these types of brilliant discussions, SIr Penrose's works have huge implications if we can understand the set of laws that govern quantum mechanics in a better way.
This is a key connection... The key to understanding the universe
Go, the board game, is a demonstration that Penrose is catching up. In recent time components of computing have become incredibly more dense and qbits of single computers are passing a hundred. Examples of articles published in leading newspapers composed by computers, have seemingly passed the Turing test. The understanding of conciousness in some circles, is advancing in bearly understood but stupendous ways. Socially we might well prepare for this and explore it's implications.
The universe can, and does respond to and react to every form of energy and "universal" element and particle, and "universal" electrical activity, and spiritual Consciousness! That relationship is where the study begins the greatest relationship - ever!
i love this channel so much
T
Merci monsieur for your wonderful videos!
"There is something in understanding that goes beyond purely following rules." 9:27
Yes, and I think that this is, in part, what Wittgenstine was driving at before he was beaten down by the academic-educational establishment.
Wish both of you could live forever.
Conciousness, which begins from awareness,... requires reasoning of all of the information collected from the body parts that sense the environment around and within! My Conciousness is not part of my body, in fact, it is anxious, at times,.. about being freed from the body, and into the universe. Conciousness is critical feedback to the universe (which allowed just the perfect place for our bodies to live, thrive, and feed consciousness back into the universe) itself. The higher our Consciousness grows, the more it becomes,,... aware, respectful,...able to help what the universe is doing, that it might even continue mankind's existence in the Universe.
You breathed and then became a living soul , just as all persons. Start there. Step one. Step two: then wonder why you wonder.
Quantum physics allows humans being to be connected to the cosmos. This connection translates meaning of consciousness. I am glad that we both came to the same theory.
Mr.Penrose is the Man
This theory explains a deeper concept of time, taking ‘the moment of now’ out of the subjective world and explaining it as part of a physical process, by using physics. We know a great deal about the mechanisms of physical reality but nothing about the nature of our immediate experience. So what is the missing connection between our understanding of the physical and our stream of consciousness awareness. This theory has come to the conclusion shared by many spiritual traditions, that consciousness is universal in all of physical existence. That an interactive process between the light of the electromagnetic spectrum and the atoms of the periodic table have evolved to form the depth and richness of conscious awareness. We have a continuous process of energy exchange forming our ever-changing world with an emergent future unfolding photon by photon. The wave particle duality of light and matter in the form of electrons forms a blank canvas that we can interact with forming the possible into the actual. This is like saying that EM fields are emergent and we have an emergent future relative to the atoms of the periodic table and the wavelength of the light. By using the dynamic structure of this process, we can explain conscious awareness in its most simple form has electrical activity in the brain that is aware of its own electrical potential. Consciousness is always in the forefront of the creative process therefore each individual is able to look back in time in all directions from ‘the moment of now’ in the center of their reference frame at the beauty of the stars. This personalization of space and time gives us the concept of ‘mind’ with each one of us having our own unique personal view of the Universe with an uncertain ∆×∆pᵪ≥h/4π probabilistic future. The flow of Time ∆E ∆t ≥ h/2π as a process of continuous energy exchange and our consciousness as a continuous stream of unbroken ever-changing flow of ideas, feelings dreams hopes perceptions and emotions are interlinked.
The age of the video does not diminish its relevancy. Penrose started out sounding a little woo-woo in his beliefs . . I RELAXED after hearing his last few statements expressing his opinion that consciousness would be eventually understood by science as a process of physical mechanisms.
He sounded fairly emotional and that always happens when the world is presented with a mystery. I admit to know nothing about consciousness, but that no reason to go overly emotional about it. Until we know, we must admit we don't know
Phew! Thank god he didn't betray our materialistic convictions!
@@dgodiex An ODD mixed metaphor.. I'm assuming It was a humorous expression of sarcasm.. I'll ask, if not NATURALISM then what?
Excellent interview.
‘Eliminate the impossible, what’s left must be the truth, however improbable’. The trouble is, are we yet certain about what is impossible or improbable?
Sir Roger, although I do not share his atheistic perspective, appears very likable. Those who are immersed in the material world miss the wonder of consciousness (now the hard problem for philosophy, and mind likely elemental; emerging with quantum events). That is why I am happy to have a religious perspective. The definition of religion is that to which we are bound.
It saved humanity from the dark occult before the age of reason. It will likely save humanity from the new threats: Eliminative Materialism and Trans humanism; the latest atheistic horrors in the pipeline.
Brilliant interview! Thank you
Penrose is imagination to the fullest and that is reality...... a true master.
master of what? Ask yourself that when you have stopped grovelling and fawning
Knowing that we Don’t know is concsciousness
We've explored precious little of the universe.
Some intellectual honesty would help.
What Sir Penrose says about mathematical problems which aren’t computationally soluble led me to an interesting thought, particularly in regards to the problem he uses as an example: if one combined a quantum computer and optimisation algorithm with this problem, a computationally reasonable sub space of the (presumably infinite) potentialities could be created, which might create a computationally reducible way of answering the question.
Also, Penrose unfortunately is just plain wrong in some of these views. I guarantee it.
Machine learning is a wonderful thing, I think we have more in common with software than we realize, emotions cloud understanding
I have a lot of RESPECT for roger penrose BUT he is COMPLETELY INCORRECT about (future) Consciousness in computers, i believe facebook or google pit two LEARNINGS A.I. against each after x amount of learning the ai started to LIE to one another after that even more x amount of leaning the AI BOTH AI's CREATED THEIR OWN LANGUAGE so the DEVELOPERS of the AI's could/would NOT KNOW what the AI's were upto (so both AI's learned/understood they were being watched/monitored by the developers, I believe the developer just shut down both the AI's down after that, roger is probably thinking of us BUILDING AI we can't/won't be able to do that but we WILL BE ABLE to create AI's that will be eventually achieve consciousness through EARNING IT (it is EXTREMELY NAIVE TO THINK AI WILL NOT BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE CONSCIOUSNESS
Emotions is what makes us human and conscious
Could it be that understanding is linked to intent? That understanding implies some sense of purpose, and purpose only emerges with intent. And computers, so far, have no autonomous intent. Only the intent we programme into them
AI is a closed system - it could be creative only in the boudaries of the knowledge the humans insert in it, through recombination. Humans are an open system, they are endlessly creative
I'm a time and space traveller - bet, U2. ALL. Just I realize what does it mean, most of you don't. Cuz I'm the most curious and the worst badass eight galaxies around.
@@aporist Humans are not infinitely creative. We substitute the parts of the system we don't understand with ego.
@@illustriouschin Yes, they are - sometimes we discover, sometimes we create. Until there's something to be discovered and there are trillions of things, maybe more, to be discovered humans will/should be inventive. The alternative is back on the trees.
@@illustriouschin Humans are the biological expression of the Universal Quantum Intellect. When the last stops to exist humans will stop to be creative. Unfortunately physics, genetics and biology are still on a very low level. Amen.
excellent interview. thanks
Inspiring.. Thank you🌷
The best example that I can think of to support the idea of non-computational understanding is the way a human baby learns to understand the world through language.
Noam Chomsky investigated for years to try and find the mechanism of learning language, and he could not find it. He ended up calling it "The Language Acquisition Device (LAD)" but he never was able to describe what it is, just that it must exist.
Every good parent knows the feeling of seeing linguistic consciousness arise in another human being. Yes, the child is learning the sounds and shapes of the words, and it pieces together meaning from understanding. But HOW is it doing it from a computational null point?
The answer is (I think) that the mind is non-computational, and that the LAD is related in some way to the quantum nature of the mind.
"Understanding, whatever that is, is not something which can be reduced to computational procedures". 9:50
"If you wish to thoroughly understand all Buddhas of the past, present and future, then you should view the nature of the whole universe as being created by mind alone." Avatamsaka Sutra
For all their pretense of understanding, Buddhism and Hinduism have done nothing to make their parts of the world more technologically competitive.
Imagine a person walking on a well-worn path in a dense forest. They are comfortable with the familiar route and the predictable surroundings. Suddenly, a new path emerges, leading to uncharted territory with unfamiliar sights and sounds. This new path represents a new scientific discovery that challenges their existing beliefs and understanding.
Just like in the forest, humans can find it difficult to leave their comfortable path of established knowledge and venture into the unknown of new discoveries. It can be unsettling to confront ideas that go against what we have always believed to be true. This discomfort can lead to resistance and skepticism towards accepting these new findings.
Furthermore, factors such as limited exposure to new information, fear of what is not understood, and adherence to traditional ways of thinking can all contribute to the hesitance in embracing new scientific discoveries.
However, it is crucial to remember that science is a journey of exploration and discovery. Just as the forest continues to grow and change, so does our understanding of the world through scientific advancements. It is important for individuals to stay curious, open-minded, and willing to challenge their own beliefs in order to continue growing intellectually.
I agree with Penrose that there has to be something quantum-yet-to-be-discovered that is non-computational about conciousness, otherwise we would only be a sum of ones and zeros from all our pre-historic biological experiences. Plato gave a great analogy on this in his Allegory of the Cave. If everything was computational there would be no Isaac Newton or other sudden geniuses before their time, no blind master painters, no Mozarts, and humans would not have "appreciation" for triviality or things, not feel love nor loss.
Probably not until we can completely interface the brain with computers and visualise it down to a Planck length will we ever get a picture of what's truly going on.
Dear Sir Roger Penrose - How do you account for Leela, Lc0 and other neural net based chess computers absolutely beating out the most sophisticated brute force machines? It is clear that we can program a computer to mimic the way human minds work and even in this venue we are getting close to true computational understanding of chess.
The problem is that we have to use consciousness to understand consciousness. To understand a system it must be observed from the outside. Can we observe consciousness from its outside? Also, is consciousness a result of the Big Bang which has been explained through computational processes? It seems to me that the idea of a supernatural being living outside the system of consciousness might have created consciousness itself and we are bound by it. Why is this idea completely discarded and seemingly not debatable? Which physics laws would it conflict with?
We are in this universe and without being outside of it we are still able to know so many things about it.......
Which came first, consciousness or life?
If human consciousness can be spread like jam throughtout the Universe, does "being" become more important than knowing?
(assume consciousness is not limited by the speed of light.)
I am so glad that Sir Roger included animals in his suggestion that this special understanding is common to all. I have always disliked the assertion that we humans are somehow superior with all the 'blessed by a God' rubbish.
Living with an animal for just a short time you can see the commonalities, all the attributes we have, they also possess.
Except we are exceptionally superior !!! Thanks to the *kind* of cerebral cortex we have and what we have learned to do with it what we have done with it, because of what we have and what we have done.
Unless of course you think extra-dimensional alien lizards built the pyramids?
This woman ...
ua-cam.com/video/EvSA1qhBq4M/v-deo.html
... starts off saying there's nothing special about us or our brains, but then points out that in fact, who and what we are and what we do gives us something no other animal has. We have an awareness that is *way* beyond the capabilities of almost any other animal. All Roger admitted to was that it may be possible that *some* animals may have some kind of awareness. It's likely that the vast number of animals' awareness' are so dim, that compared to us they are in abject darkness and ignorance. Virtual zombies, simply because they are *not* self aware !!! Some primates *may* be developing that way, certainly bonobos, not sure about any others, they seem to be somewhere in between unconscious automatons and bonobos. Sensitive to their environment but not them (their) *selves* compared to bonobos certainly and definitively compared to humans. A recent study into dolphin intelligence that took a broader perspective to better understand the limits and capabilities of the methodologies used to understand the research tools employed discovered major flaws in our approach to understanding animal intelligence. These flaws basically proved that the researchers were not properly investigating the dolphins' intelligence per se, but rather they were measuring specific sets of behavioural patterns that matched what humans would do in similar scenarios, thus all the research was able to show was, given certain circumstances, would the dolphins behave like humans. After further investigation, the researchers concluded that the reason why previous research was merely comparing how similar the dolphins acted like humans rather than measuring their "dolphin intelligence" was because the researchers did not know what "dolphin intelligence" was. On investigating why the researchers did not know this was because there is no standard definition of what intelligence is.
As a species we may well be too smart for our own good. Some of the people with the best education within their respective societies are politicians and top corporate executives. They are, also, coincidentally, demographically, more likely to be at worse psychotic or at best capable of displaying, at ease, sociopathic tendencies.
It would be useful would it not, if, before taking office, *all* politicians and corporate executives (and ... anyone with executive level capacity in trusts (charitable or otherwise) finance, commerce and banking, were, by law, required to take courses in developing kindness, compassion and empathy for their fellow human beings and indeed all living entities and the environment that sustains them ?
Yeah, humans are without doubt *exceptional* !!! Exceptionally good and exceptionally bad, but only morally. From an intelligence pov, we're *massively* brilliant, even those of us with only double digit IQ's, whatever that means !!!
Max Tegmark said something to the effect that consciousness is what we are feeling when we are processing information ... he has a good Ted Talk
True creativity, the desire for knowledge, and the innate lust for procreation are the ultimate watersheds in the course of the Artificial Intelligence’s development. In many ways, AI is already by orders of magnitude faster and more efficient that us, but the day it becomes more creative, ambitious, adventurous, knowledge seeking, and endowed with replicative lust as well, then the whole of humanity is obsolete.
Similar to mathematical computation for physical reality, consciousness might be described by a logical programming. Just as math equations can be used for physical reality, a logical program can likely be developed for consciousness.
On the right track when pursue difference between Schrodinger equation / quantum mechanics and classical measurement / observation for consciousnessness. Classical measurement / observation does not go far enough into quantum reality.
"D" is the correct answer. We can't think beyond mind hence will never know true consciousness but it is possible if we drop body-mind (not easy and is beyond logic) the leftover is consciousness.
It isn't space-time. It's space-time-conciousness.
Space is meaningless without time. Time is useless without matter. Both are allowed to exist thanks to the consciousnesses that observe them. You can't have any of these without the other two.
Cool story, now show some math or reproducible experiment that demonstrates any of that.
@@pearz420 I shouldn't have to do your research and hold your hand for you. Go google quantum mechanics. Learn about the double slit experiment (observers can change outcomes) or quantum entanglement (space and time don't 'exist' but are a single point stretched out).
My thoughts as well. Are you familiar with the CTMU?
Delightful English Gentleman.
Awareness is known by awareness alone.
I'm sure that sounded better in ur head bro. Here's another, Light is illuminated by light alone or altitude is raised by hight alone lol
Thanks for the deepity...
In your brain it will remain.
"Awareness is known by awareness alone," is the sole irreducible axiom of reality.
2 = 3 is the validity of understanding
cognition and coherence from empiricism
The question of the existence of intuition perhaps?
Something seems to be happening at the micro level here that defies our understanding, and I find it intriguing how the tiniest structures bind together to create life, and ultimately consciousness. Even the basic nature of deterministic will and procreation in the tiny organisms are fascinating, even as we have yet to define those types of creatures as having consciousness. I have always wondered whether there is some inherent drive in the tiniest structures that is not just a reaction to the environment, but a base desire to experience that environment. And no, I am not talking about God here, but some type of force that we have yet to quantify - some type of basic unit of consciousness that is trying to fight against entropy - but always fails.
Amazing man
Please atleast add the period when the interview was given by him...it's hard to relate things without time reference
Filmed in the UK in 2007.
@@QED_ Roger was 75, then, and Robert 63. Both are still going strong, especially, Penrose at 87. I see Penrose videos, new ones, constantly. Thanks to Robert Kuhn too for all his efforts over the years.
Circa 6969
so what i think is the ability to modify your belief of rules in such a way as they are upgraded over time is what Consciousness is and the ability to adjust an algorithm or RULEset as our understanding or its understanding evolves
this kinda is how evolution kinda works by taking the ones that can survive forward
Now I am becoming more conscious of what Penrose thinks about consciousness. But not much.
Excellent... thanks 🙏
5:50 his own view
7:30 kurt godel
12:50 loopholes in quantum mechanics
The answer is; what humans don't know is weigh more than what they know.
The problem is that most scientists refuse to accept anything mystical and visa versa, when science and mysticism absolutely need one another to make complete sense.
When he discusses Non-computational problems, isn't he essentially discussing P vs NP problem?
I think its the halting problem. There is more detail in his book "Shadows of the Mind"
Human evolution must be considered in relation to the the development of the brain/consciousness. Frederick Engeles noted that the developments of the hands, with it becoming bipedal, and . . . going through all that and survive or adapted better. It is that evolutionary process or as he call it Labor, that made consciousness possible.
Based in brain physiology Consciousness can be define as the result of neurological web between memory, emotion and cognition...
Upanishads (Hinduism) suggests consciousness/awareness is primordial and it has always existed.
@@dare-er7sw Such respectable view encloses within one paradox. If it is so it will mean that what human consciousness reach compare with others living species there's no difference... For instance the own consciousness of a chimpanzee is equal to a frog? There's plenty of evidence that shows different levels of complexity and differentiation in consciousness terms.
@@CrystalPalace1861 It's reflected consciousness in each specie as per Upanishads. They were written over 3000 years ago and ask the same fundamental question known as the hard problem of consciousness in science today. Then there are near death experience accounts. What's going on? Something... but the universe lacks any proof of one universal consciousness. There's no objective evidence for it but I'm having a hard time dismissing the thousands of NDE accounts. Dr. George Ritchie and Dr. Eben Alexander. Two very famous cases now.
Anything can be explained with enough reductionism, what you won't be able to do is PREDICT it, which is the true measure of understanding. There will be something missing from your explanation. Unless you are suggesting that the Hard Problem of Consciousness isn't.
I think consciousness is prior to all things...or a better way to put it is that we are consciousness and matter is just a way of seeing or experiencing,everything is energy..think about it, what’s the alternative billions of years of matter floating around and then consciousness suddenly arises in animals then humans?
There are countless alternatives. That's how imagination works.
This is an old video. Why are you not uploading newer interviews?
New interviews will be coming soon! Stay tuned.
+Closer To Truth Please interview Sam Harris, Leonard Mlodinow, and Thomas Metzinger and also more John Searle (if he's not in jail lol).
It's good that it is up here nonetheless.
@@saganworshipper6062 and Lee Smolin
Before we consider asking whether a computer is conscious, we should ask whether Sir Penrose is conscious. I believe in evidence rather than assertion, so I'd have to pick some things that I thought indicated that he was conscious (or not.) Whatever evidence I picked, I'd then have to be fair about applying that evidence toward whether a computer is conscious. In real life, our evidence is probably that he looks like us, he says he's conscious if we ask, and that he has reasonably complex behavior. And we will end up using that same standard for our own creations, whether or not that's good evidence. If it's good evidence for judging Sir Penrose's consciousness, it's good evidence for judging the consciousness of a computer; if it's bad evidence for judging the consciousness of a computer, then it's bad evidence for judging the consciousness of a person.
Some of us might go further and ask whether we ourselves actually are conscious. What is the evidence that we are?
Just to ask, do we all agree that reality/Nature is NOT computational (and not digital)?
Life is life
So consciousness is the next step in nature's evolution.Mr Penrose is saying that all the laws of nature discovered so far and their implications and applications ,are not enough .
But he is again going to go in the same direction to search for consciousness as he mentioned in his last statement.
People loose conscious after an accident, by inhering alcohol, while sleeping. Sleeping is gradual, and drunkenes.
It's hard to realize the presice moment when we start being concious. During childhood our images are blurd until some time after 3 when we also learn to understand language.
Little children start taking without having an idea of what they say. Eventually, they stop repeating and develop self interes. They start calling everything mine, mine.
It could be some part of the brain that disactivate when we fall asleep or when someone gets drunk, or when someone face an accident.
It could be a chemical reaction, who knows?
The Law myoho-renge-kyo represents the identity of what some scientists refer to as the ‘unified field of all consciousnesses’. In other words, it’s a sound vibration that is the essence of all of existence and non-existence, the ultimate creative force behind planets, stars, nebulae, people, animals, trees, fish, birds, and all phenomena, manifest or latent. All matter and intelligence are simply waves or ripples manifesting to and from this core source. Consciousness (enlightenment) is itself the true creator of everything that is, ever was and ever will be, right down to the minutest particles of dust, each being an individual ripple or wave. The big difference between chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo and most other conventional prayers is that instead of depending on a ‘middleman’ to connect us to our state of enlightenment, we’re able to do it ourselves by tapping directly into it by way of self-produced sound vibration.
On the subject of ‘Who or What Is God?’, when we compare the concept of ‘God’, as a separate entity that is forever watching down on us, to Nichiren’s teachings, the true omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence of what most people call ‘God’ is our enlightenment, which exists nowhere else but within us.
When the disciples asked Jesus where the Kingdom of God is, didn’t he tell them that it was within them?
Some say that ‘God’ is an entity that can never be seen. I think that the vast amount of information that is constantly being conveyed via electromagnetic waves gives us proof of how an invisible state of ‘God’ could actually exist. It’s widely known that certain data being relayed by way of electromagnetic waves has the potential to help bring about extraordinary and powerful effects, including instant global awareness of something or mass emotional reaction. As well as many other things, it’s also common knowledge that these waves can easily be used to detonate a bomb or to even enable NASA to control the movements of a robot as far away as the Moon or Mars. However, none of this is possible without a receiver to decode the information that is being transmitted. Without the receiver, the information would remain impotent.
In a very similar way, it’s important for us to have our ‘receiver’ switched on so that we can activate a clear and precise understanding of our life, all other life and what we and all else that exists truly is. Chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo helps us to achieve this because it allows us to reach into the core of our enlightenment and switch it on. That’s because the sound vibration of myoho-renge-kyo represents the combination of the three major laws that underlie all existence.
Myoho represents the Law of latency and manifestation (Nature) and consists of two alternating states. One state of myo is where everything in life that’s not obvious to us exists. This includes our stored memories when we’re not thinking about them, our hidden potential and inner emotions whenever they’re not being expressed, our desires, our fears, our wisdom, happiness, karma, and more importantly, our enlightenment. The other state, ho, is where everything in Life exists whenever it becomes obvious to us, such as when a thought pops up from within our memory, whenever we experience or express our emotions, or whenever a good or bad effect manifests from our karma. When anything becomes apparent, it simply means that it has come out of the state of ‘myo’ (dormancy/latency) and into a state of ho (manifestation). It’s simply the difference between consciousness and unconsciousness, being awake or asleep, or knowing and not knowing something.
The second law, renge, governs and controls the functions of myoho, ren meaning cause and ge meaning effect. The two laws of myoho and renge, both functions together simultaneously, as well as underlies all spiritual and physical existence.
The final and third part of the tri-combination, kyo, is what allows the law myoho to be able to integrate with the law renge. It’s the great, invisible thread of energy that fuses and connects together all Life and matter, as well as the past, present and future. It is often termed the Universal Law of Communication. Perhaps it could even be compared to the string theory that some scientists now suspect exists.
Just as our body cells, thoughts, feelings and all else are constantly fluctuating within us, everything in the world around us and beyond is also in a constant state of flux, in accordance with these three laws. In fact, more things are going back and forth between the two states of myo and ho in a single moment than it would ever be possible for us to calculate or describe. And it doesn't matter how big or small, important or trivial that anything may appear to be, everything that’s ever existed in the past exists now or will exist in the future, exists only because of the workings of myoho-renge-kyo.
These three laws are also the basis of the four fundamental forces and if they didn't function, neither we nor anything else could go on existing. Simply put, all forms of existence, including the seasons, day and night, birth, death and so on, are all moving forward in an ongoing flow of continuation, rhythmically reverting back and forth between the two universal states of myo and ho in absolute accordance with renge and by way of kyo. Even stars are dying and being reborn in accordance with the workings of what the combination myoho-renge-kyo represents.
Nam, or Namu, on the other hand, is a password or a key; it allows us to reach deep into our life and fuse with or become one with myoho-renge-kyo. On a more personal basis, nothing ever happens by chance or coincidence, it’s the causes that we’ve made in our past, or are presently making, that determine how these laws function uniquely in each of our lives from moment to moment, as well in our environment. By facing east, in harmony with the direction that the Earth is turning, and rhythmically chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo for a minimum of ten minutes daily, anyone can experience actual proof of its positive effects in their life.
In so doing, we can pierce through even the thickest layers of our karma and activate our Buddha Nature (the enlightened state). We’re then able to summon forth the wisdom needed to challenge, overcome and change our negative circumstances into positive ones. It brings forth the wisdom that can free us from the ignorance and stupidity that is preventing us from accepting and being proud of the person that we truly are, regardless of our race, colour, gender or sexual preference. We are also able to see and understand our circumstances and an environment more clearly, as well as attract and connect with any needed external beneficial forces and situations.
Actual proof soon becomes apparent to anyone who chants the words Nam-myoho-renge-kyo on a regular daily basis. Everything is subject to the law of Cause and Effect, so the strength of the result from chanting depends on dedication, sincerity and determination. To explain it more simply, the difference could be compared to making a sound on a piano, creating a melody, or producing a song and so on.
NB: There are frightening, disturbing sounds and there are tranquil and relaxing sounds. It's the emotional result from any sound that can trigger off a mood or even instantly change one. When chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo each day you are producing a sound vibration that is the password to your true inner-self - this soon becomes apparent when you start reassessing your views on various things, such as your fears and desires etc. The important way to get the best result when chanting is not to see things in a conventional way (difficult to achieve but can be done), rather than reaching out to an external source, you need to reach into your own life and bring your needs and desires to fruition from within, including any help that you may need. Think of it as a seed within you that you are bringing sunshine and water to in order for it to grow, blossom and bring forth fruit or flowers. It’s important to understand that everything that we need in life, all the answers and potential to achieve our dreams, already exist within us.
ua-cam.com/video/6CZ0XJqWRr4/v-deo.html OLIVIA NEWTON-JOHN sings about Nam-myoho-renge-kyo
Can anyone explain why the shape-filling a plane problem is not in principle liable to computational explanation, i.e. that there cannot be in principle an algorithm that could solve the question of whether a (finite?) number of polygons could fill a plane without leaving any gaps?
i was wondering the same thing. my only explaination is the problem of infinity . Or if it was logical proposal it would be a tautology. Surely not!
A good out of body experience will convince many that simply there is a lot more to reality than physical and laws of physics.
that's not been proven
If the period before the big bang went from high entropy / low temperature tiny state to low entropy / high temperature small dense state, could this dynamic have happened from a black hole?
I can't get the meat of his argument around 9:00 - 9:30, related to godel's incompleteness.
If anyone understand better and can rephrase it, I'd be interested, thanks.
I wonder who would be the brilliant mind who will solve this problem
I'm going to establish an AI startup in no time.
The corporate name is 'GNT+P', and 'P' means 'Sir Roger Penrose' here.
Although not entirely, I agree to his mind(consciousness, AI, etc.)-related opinion.
When the energy of consciousness became aware of its own existence it began to understand the concept of evolutionary growth and development. This was the beginning of consciousness own evolutionary experiance of existence that resulted in consciousness becoming a creative energy. The one conscious experience of existence came to the realisation and understanding that it needed to be many. It became the universe.
I'm not from the "just shut up and calculate school". I wish I was. It would be so much easier....
Brilliant mind
I believe in some form of 'extended mind' theory together with downward causation.
Unfortunately I can't find a counterargument to reductionism at the moment.
Reductionism would hold that thoughts are uniquely characterized by brain states, due to chaos one person's brain state could never be expected to coincide exactly with another person's, and hence we could never expect two people to entertain - even if just for a moment - the same thought. I think we do believe in the objective reality of certain thoughts however, there may be topological differences or what ever, but we can both think about the number 12, maybe to you it's big and to me it is small, but there are objective features as well, we both encountered the same 12. We will both be unsure about some common detail of the number 12 and if we investigated that detail independently we would come to the same conclusion. Something rather impossible from the reductionist point of view.
Can the inanimate physical world exist without consciousness to see it? Imagine all conscious entities no longer exist. Does the universe continue on in darkness. Not easy to imagine. Everything proceeds from consciousness. All the marvelous theories and observations of humanity were born of curious conscious beings.
Well the chess analogy just crumbled: computers now are just told the rules and nothing else and within two hours have taught themselves how to be better than any human ever. I think that is as good as human understanding with regards to chess.
Free will
What do you notice about these three people ? Roger Penrose, Senator Alan Eggelstone and Robin Williams ?