I dont think this comment section knows the difference between hard and soft magic systems. Who is going to tell them that Freiren and JJK are about the same level of 'hard' as far as magic systems go? (Spoilers, it might be me in a new video lmao).
I mean, it's a lot harder for me to get through gojo vs Sukuna and the encyclopedia of exposition needed for why and even how those two are so poggers that they're literally revolutionizing all the rules as they fight
@@asisifrans the big things, for me personally, that Hunter x Hunter does better than JJk: 1.) Powers are generally much more digestible, with just a few exceptions (a certain set of "emperor's eyes" can be a bit of a confounding swiss army knife--especially when it busts out the talking dolphin robot drone with a syringe...yes, really) I genuinely believe that a lot of the narration during the Chimera Ant Arc's finale was largely unnecessary. Meanwhile, we'd have no earthly clue about Gojo vs Sukuna without pages upon pages of the bystanders being about just as baffled. 2.) Domain expansion is fun, but can add a compounding layer of convoluted mechanics via the barrier (big part of what made Gojo vs Sukuna so impenetrable) 3.) Nen has a lot of funky and interchangable names between Ren and ten and what have you, but it basically just translates to "hey, having nen is cool, but nen can be concentrated into an arm to block, into a fist or object to wreck stuff, or over your eyes to see nen gud." It's a natural extension of one's aura, sort of like how a martial artist learns to use his god given physicality in a fight (a comparison helped along by the fact that martial arts are used to help the protags learn more advanced techniques) But I don't find JJk to be as intuitive , ESPECIALLY reversed curse technique. Like, it seems to exist completely apart from cursed technique. Hell, Gojo learns to use it to *recover* cursed technique (and so apparently does black flash) and doesn't seem to have a limit(?) and comes from thinking happy thoughts(?) There's no discernable movement behind it, it seems to work nigh instantly, and we don't get to see the mindset with which characters are able to achieve it in battle. Like, Sukuna and Gojo I can see being literally sustained by their own self confidence, as their strength and ego are what define them, but then what about everyone else? Could they delude themselves with confidence? Do they have some other means with which to induce regenerative euphoria? Idk, but that'd be interesting to see!
@@jaheim_the_omnipotent4875 there's a massive difference between "complex" and "unintuitive." Hunter X Hunter can be ridiculously complex with hyper specific abilities and actual info dump chapters explaining its various nuances, but it's never just "...huh?" in the way that jjk's final arc has been imo
I'll be honest, I thought that was kind of the entire point. If you're working with either expert martial artists or wizards who are trying to achieve the pinnacle of magic, I feel like it should be a given that they know what they're talking about at an expert's level, that's what you're trying to do, become the most knowledgeable fighter/Mage, isn't it? If it's a regular person who has no idea or interest about a subject, their knowledge and dialogue should filter through that setting, but otherwise, "instinct and talent" can only take you so far. If it were the opposite, the mathematicians of old would have already figured out every singular mathematical formula just like OP Mage characters discovering ancient magic early in their lives with very little knowledge about magic, or every single martial art should have already been discovered by some random backwater village peasant due to their incredible talent in fighting, instead of building up their knowledge about how to fight using weapons correctly, how to be safe as to not get killed by a single stab in the head, how to properly parry, what is the most appropriate place to position your weapons in certain situations, where to strike most efficiently, etc. Not only does giving your character knowledge about what they are doing solidify your character's skill, but it also gives you credibility, since it seems that you, as the author, actually have some clue about whatever it is you're writing or talking about, and choosing the character that is the exception and doesn't have to learn any of these things takes away depth from the basics that make the foundation of your world. Of course, you can still use that character archetype, but it'd be interesting to often see switches in perspectives to solidify understanding of the world between you and the reader, probably focusing on a less talented character who had to actually understand things from the bottom. Anyways I no longer know what I'm talking about due to my ever decreasing attention span, so I'll end this comment here.
@@elongatedsedation324I'm working on a triad approach with my main characters as in 3 stats they each distribute their points to strength, speed and range 3 because rock paper scissors your strength is useless if you can't close in the range your range is useles if your target is too fast and your speed is useless if your target is too strong characters will have different levels of each of these and specialise in one of them if there's a balanced character he might have less disadvantages but that would mean he has less advantages too just like in RPGs should be interesting going forward
@@JeetKunDrawYT Ok but I'm curios why, doesn't the strong guy just stand against a wall. And then kick off the wall with a lot of strength to launch him towards the ranged enemy? Or throw a rock with all his strength to hit the ranged enemy in the head?
@@mouhou9795 ehehe, I'll figure it out when I put it in a fight😂 I mean the ranged dude can take out the thrown rock with his superior range prowess is for using strength to gain speed, ranged dude would be screwed as far as I can tell
I have noticed that most magic systems favor intelligence to use them effectively it's probably because magic systems are systems and the more you understand a system the more effectively you can use it.
Same, i liked early days naruto because you had an explanation how the magic system worked. This way you could try and solve riddle how to end the fight. It is grounded and makes you audience think. I think there should be a place for "strategic" magic system aswell. Not every story needs a mystery magic system
This is a tunnel-visioned way of looking at magic, as this only really involves "casting" type of magic, like mages/sorcerers/wizards/etc. You will be called out on your bullshit by your readers. But what about clearly magically altered abilities? Enhancing strength or setting a sword in flame? A barbarian's "rage system" doesn't require intelligence.
@@KurosakiRuka Yep, that was my favorite part of Naruto, when you had to figure out what strategies the characters were going to use from their toolkit to end the fight. It's not an easy type of story to write, but those types of stories where you have your audience figure out the finale of a conflict based on the clues you've given them are easily my favorite types of stories in all of fiction.
@@jesustyronechrist2330Not really, from what you just described it sounds like they're still using magic but in a far more limited way that reinforces their natural strengths. Compare setting a sword on fire against hurling a ball of flame that explodes with great force. One of those, is clearly way less magically intense than the other, but due to innate skill of the user with something *other* than magic, and leaning into it with their more limited knowledge of magic, then it makes perfect sense.
While giving your magic system an air of mystety does have some narrative benefits... I dont think that's the only way to go, as there is an appeal to treating it as a science. Namely the more well defined a magic system works, then there is more potential engagement with the viewers, as they can actually join in and theorize on its application. Sorta how it's more engaging to watch a mystery story, when there are actual clues that the audience can use to decipher it. Whereas if a magic system is shrouded in too much mystery with no clear rules, it can appear too much of a Deus ex Machina, which will rob the impact of scenes, as it might feel unearned without appropriate buildup.
100% percent agree. When he started saying the fun thing about science and history is not fixating on the interesting minutia but a good story from a teacher I couldn’t help but be a little pissed as a lover of biology and anthropology. Don’t get me wrong the mystery and debate are fascinating but the little facts and information are what is most fun for me and no doubt many others
@@ScritRighter the argument about the force coming from the mitichorians is a missunderstanding. George explaind in an interview 08(?) that the Mitichorians don't generate the force but act as recivors for it. Much like satalite dishes do with radio waves. it was recently reinforced by an episode in the Ashoka show. plus it make sense why the force is more pusedo science, Magic fallows the same princalpes of since when it come to research and discovery, and the force users from Star wars had thoousands of years to study and researched it. essentially Star wars is a magic system in its eldery phase instead of it's adolecent or mature phase that we're more commonly thrusted in.
@@ScritRighter Just as well, it was so poorly written that I got cancer from it Fact is, Qui-Gon could have just said "the force is strong in this child" or been poetic with something like "the force ebbs and flows around this child like a great tide crashing against unseen realities". Instead they felt the need for an absolute measurement in order to compare him against other powerful Jedi. *shrug*
I think it would be really interesting if you had have two different magic users that have different theories about how magic works and so they actually fight with the same magic system almost completely differently because of their own beliefs about the magic system too bad I don't see a lot of stories using that idea.
Yeah I think that's a great idea that not enough stories honestly do, and it would be a good way to show how magic works even if one side might misunderstand it.
I feel like a good example of what your talking about at is sports anime. Both teams are playing whatever sport but different types of ideals and beliefs shine through. Both teams in any given match mostly follow the rules of the game but they reach different conclusions.
Different magic users with radically different theories and methods for using magic, but technically still using the same magic system, is something you see a lot in RPGs, especially TTRPGs. Not just D&D, but games like Shadowrun go into a great deal of detail about the differences between Hermeticism, Shamanism, and the countless other magical traditions, and how they all still share the same manasphere. Mage: The Ascension goes the most extreme route where literally every single mage uses an entirely unique magical paradigm/philosophy that limits what that particular mage can and can't do with magic, but it's all the same magic system at its root.
I don't think stories like Frieren, Harry Potter, A Song of Ice and Fire or Lord of the Rings have Magic "Systems". They 100% DO have magic. That's pretty obvious. But they don't have "systems" for that magic. They magic just is. There are no rules to extrapolate upon beyond "this happened so it's possible, this didn't happen so it's not possible". A magic SYSTEM requires a system from which you can extrapolate and infer information from the established rules. How much you can work with it determines if it's soft or hard system, but they are still systems.
Exactly, meanwhile a story like Hunter x Hunter and Jujutsu Kaisen DO have magic systems because they have rules and are coded, but with that very code it can be play around with and even be outsmarted (like how Yuji learned RCT by swapping bodies).
Soft vs hard magic systems...Kinda silly to say harry potter doesnt have a magic system when the series goes out of its way to explain why harry can use a Patronus etc.
You're just being literal with the word "system" here. Soft magic system, even if vague, have a system. The author may purposefully hide the system from the viewer if he feels like it. Usually they do that because a hard magic system won't enhance the story they're trying to tell and would be much better if a soft one was used.
You shouldn't conflate your personal preferences as the paragon. A lot of stories manage to have very complex magic systems while still retaining, and often even enhancing its intrigue (e.g. Hunter x Hunter, Witch Hat Atelier, etc.)
idk, man. There are hard and soft magic systems for a reason, and both ends of the spectrum have their own advantages and disadvantages. I prefer to write harder magic systems because it gives the main characters tools to confront obstacles and clear objectives to strive for (get better at it so they have more tools at their disposal), but I don't think of soft magic systems as lesser because of my preferences
Hard systems don't mean you explain every detail of them to the audience at the beginning of the story. That's just bad writing on practically every level. Hard systems mean the system is complete and internally consistent, so that if something unexpected happens the audience's reaction isn't "that's bullshit, and contradicts what has already happened," it's either "oh, so THAT'S possible and gives me new context" or "I had it all wrong the entire time." A soft system is a system the author himself has not bothered to consider and flesh out, and opts to leave any variable as an unknown quantity, show really crazy stuff early to set the bar high and make it flexible, and then demonstrate that system only infrequently thereafter to reduce the chance of self-contradiction further, so that it is almost impossible to evoke a "that's bullshit" reaction (and of course, these storytelling techniques can be used with hard systems- Focusing on magic, we don't quite know enough to deduce for certain if LotR actually had a hard magic system, and sort of like how a lot of people think it's high fantasy but it's actually just set in prehistoric Europe, it is probable, given Tolkien's inclinations, that while a lot of people think its magic system is soft, it is actually a hard system seen through the eyes of some rather non-magical hobbits, and the fact that Gandalf makes a show of using magic a few times early on and later on magical beings show seemingly unrelated abilities with the through line being that they evoke some kind of action at a distance and have no readily-available "natural" explanation all makes it feel like we're dealing with a soft, nebulous idea of "magic" that is full of wonder but impossible to probe for consistency; And indeed, we see some of the structures of the hard system that likely underlies the setting, in the wraith-world Frodo enters while wearing the ring, and the strong connection between the pure primordial lights (of which ordinary light is a very impure form, merely capable of illumination) and magical power (eg the Silmarils and the elves having power because of their connection to that very light)). Personally, I suspect very few soft systems actually exist in respected narrative speculative fiction, and where they do exist they tend to be almost superfluous to the stories told therein (relevant to Brandon Sanderson's "First Law of Magic," which is that an author's ability to solve a problem [effectively, without ruining the audience's immersion] with magic is directly proportional to how well the audience understands the magic; If the reader doesn't really get the rules of the magic, and either a new magical event fails to coherently provide context that deepens their understanding or the magic in fact has no set-in-stone rules, solving the problem of it taking five days to go around a giant lake but the hero wants to get there in one by saying a wizard parted the waters so they could walk through in one is not that big a deal and may add an element of whimsy, majesty or respect for the wizard, but solving the problem of the hero's dead loved one by saying the wizard snapped his fingers and brought them back to life not only feels like a lazy cop-out, it completely trivializes the very major and important emotional and physical factor of _death_ in a story). What people perceive as soft systems are usually those they, as audience members who are not incisive enough to spot the underlying patterns, see as haphazard because they are not meticulously spelled out (the beautiful elegance of this being that that type of person tends to have a much higher threshold for suspending their disbelief when you tell them "the wizard said hocus pocus and everything just worked out" anyway). There's a reason Sanderson is so emphatic that fantasy authors should use hard systems for magic: It is not that he's an idiot who doesn't realise that some of the best and most successful fantasy settings of all time have epic soft magic systems bro, it's that he's smart enough to realise _they actually don't._ On that note, going back to my main point: You're confusing a system having coherent, consistent rules (being a hard system) with a system being completely exposed to the reader with all its ins and outs (having an exposition dump). Nevermind that exposition dumps rarely make much sense in-setting (unless they're _explicitly wrong;_ I challenge you to produce a single scientific theory or system in real life, our understanding of which has not been upturned or heavily amended within the last two hundred years- Some which seemed neatly wrapped up and fully understood at some point in the last century, like atom theory, have undergone serious revision in just the last decade).
I’m writing a hard magic system where the main character’s super-isolated, super-militaristic village doesn’t know any of the rules to this system. This is mostly due to the fact that they don’t care about science or research. It won’t be until the second book where she meets someone from outside her village (peer, not a mentor) that actually explains to her, and the reader, how this actually works. And as a bonus, because nobody knew how her magic specifically worked, she was never able to foster it properly, and thus she was pretty heavily nerfed. Upon meeting someone to properly explain, she learned not only what her magic was, not only the source of it, but how to actually use it properly (using metal bracelets as conduits rather than a wooden staff, specifically). Hopefully this serves to not overwhelm the reader and let them get familiar with the system and hopefully start to make connections and theories on their own, but it also gives her a quick little boost of power, just from simply figuring out to use metal rather than wood. And before everyone cries “Marry-Sue”, the main focus of the first book is her learning how to work hard (she starts off terribly lazy) only to come up short time and time again when compared to her peers. She learns that for whatever reason, she has to try at least twice as hard to equal everyone else, so she does. Only after she has more than proven herself by winning a battle tournament and helping to bring down one of the strongest antagonists in the first book, does she get to have the shackles removed, so to speak.
You could have categorised magic system in two parts and name it Hard magic system and soft magic system, But you choose to call one better than others based on your personal liking
@@DrakusLuthos Maybe he has the right to make it, but its worse when he states it as a fact and applies it to everyone ignoring preference(essentially calling those who don't like what he likes stupid and wrong), and then absolutely can't handle criticism of his ideas maturely in his own comments section.
Yeah, I disagree. I like soft magic systems, but strict magic systems can be just as cool. I recommend Brandon Sanderson's books; they tend to have hard magic systems and are awesome. I also disagree with you on what makes science fun. Testing ideas hands-on is cool and I like it a lot, but more than that, understanding concepts and relating them to each other to reveal insights into how stuff works, that's the thing that made me like science and it's why I have enteres an engineering course, which I'm completing in a couple months. Storytelling is awesome, but inctricate knowledge and detail is also awsome; they can be engrossing in different ways and in different scenarios and to different people in different moods.
Intricate detail works in a story about engineering solutions to problems, where the focus of the story is on the process of problem-solving. Otherwise it is unnecessary and wastes the reader's time and energy. Nothing bogs down an action sequence like explaining how powers work.
@@HenriFaust You don't need to do it in the middle of a fight, and you don't need to do it all at once. Pieces of it can be sprinkled throughout the story so that by the time a major fight happens the reader understands the magic
If you can explain its rules in scientific method, and it functions as an alternative to what we consider to be rational physics, always working the same way in response to the same inputs, then it is magic in name only. It isn’t really magic. Magic means you DON’T understand it, and can’t. Only those who are innately magical, and themselves thereby incomprehensible, can truly understand magic.
@@Redbeardblondie Yeah, but magic is what we call those alternatives to science, because they are super natural forces or mechanisms that don't exist in the real world. Do you have another word for it? Also, I don't agree with your definition of magic as the unkowable, but, really, we're just picking over a word's definition. Its use is what matters, and even that is really sidetracking of the topic we were on.
i beg to disagree on the ´one shall not explain magic like science, it must be magic´ becouse you can but it will make things harder, the thing about science is that the deeper you go the more you realice we kinda dont know why the principles are there, like gravity we dont know why it is there how it works and so on, you can explain magic and make a fairly hard sistem and just stop at any point and say we just dont know more. But a sistem like that has to be complex enough to allow nuance, in the same way a colection of gears and simple parts can make something as complex and beautiful as a car or a fine tuned musical instrument, i think the jjk is a good one, the inhereted stuff is unpredictable but it tends to personified the character, most importantlly jjk has a super strong base for everything. I find everyrhing in beetwin its gonna fall a bit flat, i personally i dislike HP magic couse it dosent fell like a sistem, just a colection of flashy tricks, like how did the first wisard came acros it? i could continue on hp but i dislike everything about it lol. srry 4 bad english tho, i loved the video tho im just a bit of a nerd
Came here for the thumbnail and read the description, as much as i like frieren i have to disagree with that opinion, cause frieren info dumps too, i remember a couple in the recent Magical test arcs. you need to consider that the two shows use their power systems to highlight different things. JJK's power system exists to facilitate Combat, and the info we are given make the combat more engaging, assuming the info is just useful for power scaling is just odd. some of us don't care about that shit. Full Metal Alchemists power system does the same for its Theme of the Value of life, through the rules of its power system "The law of Equivalent Exchange". Frieren's Power system is used in a lot of cases to show how the Mages have evolved over the course of history, that's why we got an episode about the demon who invented "Zoltraak"( Attack Magic ) and how the mages learnt it and overcame it. thats why we got information about mages switching to manipulating elements instead of using Stronger but more complex defensive magic. remember when Edel the 2nd class hypnosis specialist, spent time explaining the Magic system as she strategized on how to fight sense's Clone, or when we cut away from Ubel vs Sense's clone to explain how her magic works and how she had an advantage over Sense's Magic, these are also info Dumping. if your idea was applied to a show like Death Note, you would say that the Death Note is a poorly written power system, because a lot of time is taken to explain the rules of the Death Note, but this information is important so that strategies used by the characters later make sense. Info Dumping is a necessary evil, finding interesting ways to explain the abilities is a problem all writers have to solve. as far as i'm JJK does it well enough, and Still delivers more interesting combat with its power system. Thanks for reading, now I'll watch the video. I'd love to hear what you think.
Hello, Scrit! I was very enraptured by your humor and your video's content. As a fan of HARD magic systems, your support for softer magic systems left a solid impression on me. I agree that a great magic system inspires mystery. However, I had issues with the strange dismissal of counterclaims which are evident in a softer system. 18:42 Personally, that was my main argument against Freiren's magic system being compelling. When a power system can do *everything* it stops having an actual point to say about anything. If I can make a magical pulley system AND fireballs AND teleportation spells, there isn't actually skill in the craft. It's just a mage being superior because they had access to superior education. The issue of sudden realization is more present in Freiren, since a spell only needs to be logically consistent to function, with a nebulous mana cost. [Human Supremacy, however, is something that I loved about it. We are, indeed, the best race, as the Elves and Demons and God-knows-who-else will break before our ingenuity.] Jujutsu Kaisen's diamond-hard magic system actually subverts the search for mystery by giving the joy of discovery. The laborious explanations of Cursed Techniques causes the audience to have a preconceived idea of the limits to the power. Todo Aoi's Boogie-Woogie allows him to swap places between himself and an object. However, it isn't until he starts to *cheat* the power, that you realize the REAL rules were in front of you the entire time. He can swap any two objects with Cursed Energy, allowing him an infinite permutation of attack patterns. The audience is given a sense of wonder, which is even stronger than mystery. This makes every CT Battle likened to a fencing match, rather than a game of chess. Each fighter's style compels the characters to demand their own questions of the magic system, but both are forced to use blades to score points against each other. [My MAIN issue with Jujutsu Kaisen is some of the rules which are set up logically conflict. The Barriers lead into both Domain Expansions and Incantations. However, Incantations are expressions of Showing One's Hand. An optimal fight would be to do ALL of them at once, and several fights in the series could have been won if the compounding effects of these abilities are used to the fullest. That's even 90% of the reason why a CERTAIN SORCERER was the strongest of his generation. However, SURELY at least one other person would emulate that?] My favorite magic system of all time is a tie between HunterxHunter, Shaman King, and Allomancy. All of them are so screwed shut that you'd EXPECT nothing to break them, yet there is always room for natural subversion. That wonder abounds.
I'm not really advocating too much for soft magic systems as I am advocating for not overexplaining the rules of your magic system. I dunno if you've read the JJK manga or not, but if you haven't then... oh boy. Either way, I don't see the conflict with what you say and what I've said. I think whether or not you have a hard or soft magic system in your story, what's important are two things: - Have a set of rules to follow as a writer behind the scenes even if those rules are conveyed - the rules you convey to the audience should give them room to speculate on what magic can DO not what the rules of magic are. I suppose a third important thing is finding a way to convey the rules of your magic system in a way which makes sense, and doesn't yank the reader aside for a lecture on the new rules of the system. JJK does this A LOT in later archs following Shibuya to the point that it is a genuine mind numbing slog of a read, and why I no longer consider its magic system to be good. Magic systems are made or ruined on how well they are conveyed.
Midi-chlorians and the Force are not the same thing. Midi-chlorians is simply a way of the Force weaving it’s way through other people, through a microscopic organism. They also determine one’s connection to the Force, depending on how high or low it is.
So if I am to understand correctly midi-chlorians ( which I've always assumed was analogous to mitochondria in many ways) are a micro-organism that is naturally force sensitive and having more of them within one allows people to by extension utilize the midi-chlorians force sensitivity to ones own benefit but they aren't the only organism that are force sensitive? As in a person with low midi-chlorians can learn to become very strong regardless? I'm not certain how it is supposed to work
@@daviddiggens8841 the best real life comparison is with neuro-receptors and magnetism. Magnetism is a thing on its own. The global magnetic field is all around us, yet we can not feel it. Now we have birds, the flying feathered thingies... The reason why the move to warmer regions when seasons change and how they navigate is the following: In their brains are little receptors that allow them to sense magetism and let it guide them. Midichlorians can be compared to such developed receptors. Each one has receptors in their brains but only the specific configuration of the bird ones, compare that to the density levels of midichlorians, allows them to become aware of the magnetism around them.
I've never understood all the hate Midi-chlorians get. Saying "the Force is strong with this one" and "you have a high Midi-chlorian count" are effectively the same, from a storytelling standpoint. I _guess_ there is a slight difference if it's a thing you can measure, but several animes have some sort of mana measuring doohickey (one only has 2 digits, so the Gary Stu is abandoned as a child for scoring 02, when he's actually 1,002; that was a neat idea). But people blame Midi-chlorians for the Force being genetic, and now it's not that "everyone" can use the Force, it's something-something eugenics-- only it was _always_ genetic, _always. "Dark Father" was always supposed to be Luke's father, and if you believe it was a retcon, you're a moron. Leia, however, was retconned, and that's why she didn't get any force-shadowing... tee-hee.
Trying to pretend that science and magic are separate is a fundamental misunderstanding of both. Magic is just additional physical laws of that world like gravity, light, mass, energy, and etc. Science is not something that physically exist, as people often confuse technology with science. Science is a process and way of viewing the world which is why the full name is "The scientific method" because it's a method of learning not some monolithic thing. When mages/wizards and such research how mana works, is managed, manipulated to form different spells, make magical devices, and etc. they are potentially engaging in the scientific method. It's very simple you state how you think something works, you make a test that will show your assumption is either right or wrong, this is the most important part as the test has to be able to show true or false. With the results then helping to expanding your knowledge of how the world works. How this applies to magic system which are just additional physical laws is that the reader doesn't need to completely understand the rules and neither do the people in the world as finding out correct information means you have to ask the right questions as if the question is wrong for your test the results could mislead you as something happening. Take Avatar for example when Toph realizes that Metal is just another type of earth and learns to bend it as well because her perspective on it changed. Since we know even more about the world than they do we know there shouldn't really be any separation of the elements as it's all just different states of matter. People often view depictions of earlier societies with amusement when they hear some of their beliefs like everything being made of the 4 Elements, but really without any knowledge of atoms how would one explain the 4 states of Matter? Fire = Plasma / Air = Gas / Water = Liquid / Earth = Solid. The since some materials changed states easier than others they similar assumed the mix of the elements was different in those materials. It wasn't too unreasonable of an assumption given how little they knew at the time of the rest of physics. And it's possible a magic system is the same way that they barely scratch the surface thus making misconceptions on how things work. Also like stated in the video cold doesn't exist but is simply a lack of heat, yet we see things like cold guns or cold spells which in order to achieve means using something that lacks a lot of heat itself just as pouring liquid nitrogen on something to freeze it. All that heat leaves the item and goes into the liquid nitrogen. Similar to cold, darkness doesn't really exist but is simply the absence of light. Thus anything that would create the perception of darkness spreading would most likely simply be a cloud of some opaque substance or material that doesn't reflect the light, such as vantablack. But to the uneducated that don't know the properties of light would assume it is "creating darkness". "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C Clark Magic is just physical laws we don't understand yet and can be just as confusing as some of the ones we do sort of understand. Such as light being both a wave and particle, quantum mechanics of a something being in multiple states at once like up and down, left and right, and etc. And just like in the real world as much as we have learned there is still more we don't know. This would be true of any Magic system which is why trying to over explain it would not only ruin the mystery but also not be very realistic as we don't even fully understand all the rules of our own universe despite how advanced we think we are. But that also means that in the world of magic there would be people devoted to studying it and uncovering more of those rules, which begs the question of how far they might go, as we have some horrific stories in our own world of people doing experiments on other people to find out the limits of human tolerance. By keeping things vague for the reader and thus the world it can cause tension for those in the world trying to unlock those secrets even if the author knows the answers already on how something could be achieved. You can even use an unreliable narrator that seems reliable to mislead the reader as everyone thinks something is not possible to create a really dramatic moment and world shattering change in perspective, like with Toph figures out how to Metal Bend which has been shown over and over to be something Earth benders can't do because of the assumption metal is not per of earth.
Well Toph could only bend metal because of the "earth fragments" on the inside, it is impossible to bend pure metal in this universe. No rules have changed
The basic problem is that some folks think the cool thing is the system, when that's only ever as good as the characters and stories it facilitates. If we don't care about the characters and what they're using the magic to do, it doesn't matter in the slightest what your magic system is. You /can/ explain your system in great detail /if/ you can make it interesting and relevant, in much the way I had one highschool math teacher who knew how to teach math, and a bunch who just recited facts at us. A detailed magic system allows folks to be clever in application of the rules, to find exploits, to make fridge-logic realizations that things that seemed to work one way could work another. It allows you to set up the rules and use the rules creatively. It's like a well written mystery, where the author provides all the information needed to get to the right answer, but doesn't just hand you everything on a silver plate - you need to figure out some of the red herrings and fight some assumptions along the way to sort out the truth before the detective reveals it. But if we don't like the characters or story, we're not going to care about the clues or the reveal. Ubel's magic is a great example, fairly decent chunk of time/pages gets devoted to explaining it, but it's not just important to understanding the scope and capability of that spell or what it's user can do, but also her general mindset and her approach to magic, and by comparison how some of the most skilled mages of the day see her. "I can cut whatever I think I can cut, and cannot cut whatever I don't think I can cut". It's interesting because it's doing more than /just/ telling us what she can do in a fight. It's exploring one of the key rules of magic in this world, "you can't do anything you can't truly visualize", and shows what that means, and how individual character and worldview shapes the magic you can do. It is integral to who she is, and the whole thing informs a lot of what we see with other magic users, where their own magical powers and related strengths and weaknesses at magically are a direct reflection of who they are as people. It also relates to why Frieren loves the silly spells, and why she could beat the demon lord when Serie, a vastly more skilled and powerful mage, would have no chance. If you just hand us a chunk of rule system you've so exhaustively developed in only the least clever and interesting way possible, you've wasted our time, if the rules aren't being used in an interesting way, all you're really doing is giving use a lot of time/pages to say "different people can do different things". There's plenty of hard magic and hard SF series that have "here's my thing, isn't it cool?" with their magic system or the tech they're exploring and drop the ball on doing more than the absolute minimum, most obvious and thus least interesting thing with it. Like mitochlorians.
Personally I don't agree that Frieren has such a good power system, especially if you compare it to the best easy to understand systems in anime/manga (Stands and Alchemy), Frieren has a problem and that is that it is too vague the rule is ''Yes the magician can imagine it so he can do it'' and that makes that the viewer doesn't feel the need to speculate what a magician can do and what not. That JJK's power system explains too much seems to me to be part of its charm, it reminds me of one of my favorite power systems, Nen, and most of the time these explanations can be skipped and you will understand the power well anyway. I think that these explanations at the end serve as an extra for those who want to know how this system works in great detail. Going back to Frieren I think that it is a system that is too vague to stand out and it ends up seeming like it just happens because ''he could imagine it'', I think that a good soft system is something like alchemy, one doesn't think that something came from nowhere because the two most important rules are easy to understand and allow variations, or the stands that are easy to understand but their charm is how they use their simple skills and make them more complex which causes the battle be extremely fun and surprising and I don't think Frieren achieves what these two systems do. Although I think Frieren is an incredible anime, I simply don't think its system is something it even stands out for.
Alchemy from FMA is 100% a hard magic system. And calling Stands easy to understand is crazy when they change every so often based on the universe they're in at the time lmao. I think Freiren has a great magic system because it isn't concerned with trying to stand out. It focuses on telling a true fantasy story, and captures the essence and wonder of magic. They don't need to give an analytical synopsis of the power system. Frieren is great because it also invests time into describing how the magic system has an effect on the world and the people living in it. There is a difference between something which stands out and something which is well written. Freiren's magic system is well written, but it is also very close to most high fantasy magic systems we already know.
@@ScritRighterstands are in fact easy to understand. A stand is your soul, stands can touch you, but you can't touch stands. Stands have different powers based on different users(that's the complicated part, i agree, but the stand powers and the stand system itself are seperate things) amd if the stand takes damage you take damage aswell.
@@ДюсековИльяс The powers within the magic system are still apart of the magic system. And how well it is conveyed depends on the magic system. Avatar is a good example of this. Bending styles are tied to martial technique, and we all understand they can only bend one element unless they are the Avatar. The more advanced techniques, such as Lightning, Metal Bending, and Blood Bending are also easy to understand and make perfect sense in the rules described.
@ScritRighter Stands are the manifestation of the user's will. Why does Gold Experience create life that hurts you if you hurt it? Because, deep down, Giorno is a kind person who rewards kindness with kindness and punishes cruelty with cruelty. Stand abilities don't really change their rules, they just develop exceptions. A stand ability is generally stronger the closer the stand is to the user. Unless it's a remote stand, then they're usually weak with esoteric abilities. Unless a condition is met that allows a stand to roam further while maintaining its power. Stand abilities are unique and have only one thing to do with the rules. That's that they're generally based on the will of the user. The individual abilities don't make the system complicated.
Why are you trying to separate science from magic? Science is just our best method of understanding reality. Magic isn't real in our world so of course we can't study it with science, but in a world where the rules are different then what is magic to us could be considered a fact of reality, and as such studied by science just like any other. It's not necessary of course, you can also write stories about worlds in which magic eludes any and all rational scrutiny and behaves in ways that people are unable to grasp any rhyme or reason for and it would be perfectly fine too. Especially when the characters are subject to magic rather than performing it, like say, in alice in wonderlands you don't need to understand the rules of how wonderland works because alice herself has no fuckin clue. But ultimately this video is you passing your preference as if it was some objective truth and making it into a terrible writing advice. The worst thing is you're using a terrible exemple for it, personally I love all the details given about the magic in frieren and how they show that it is indeed studied like a science. While we don't get down to excruciating details that's because the magic system is really secondary in that story, it's not a story about mages doing magic, it's a story about grief and appreciating life to the fullest. You can prefer that but that's not mean it's inherently better than stories that revel into the nitty gritty of the alternate rules of their universe. Personally I adore complex magic systems that behave like a puzzle for the read especially when used creatively. Sometimes it even behave like, theoretical physics for an alternate universe. Like, you setup rules, put two characters with each other and try to derive what would be the result based on those rules. It's just fun and intellectually engaging, not emotionally engaging yes, but it's the same sort of appeal as a mystery novel where the writer tries to give you the information you need to piece the puzzle yourself. Personally I like both primarily intellectually and primarily emotionally engaging stories (although ideally you want both =p) and I just feel like you're missing out on something cause you don't get it and just decided it was objectively bad. Different kind of stories are allowed to exist and not every story has to be for you. You can criticize a story for failing what it sets out to achieve, but you can't say something is bad writing because it tries to do something you don't see value in. This is "there shouldn't be any gay romance in my stories because I'm straight" level of media analysis.
Thanks so much for this. I am working on a video covering why power systems are so cool and this really helped me with fleshing out ideas. I'll definitely be sure to credit you when I'm able to make it.
Stands are still, by faaaar, my favorite power system to date. I personally adore how deceptively soft the "rules of stands" are, with how easy it is to exaggerate actual science facts or other phenomenon and fuckin' Frankensteins them into _absurd_ yet dangerous super-powers. (Also I can make my favorite songs into cool abilities so it's a 11/10 already for that alone)
I love when magic system works like it's science of their world, not that it's explained by OUR science, but that it's something they can research, improve, train, it has hard laws that cannot be broken, but can be abused.
Warning: This is a long one. Also, excuse my gramar and writing. I'm not a native speaker and I write this in a hurry. (Also, i write this half way through the video. If these points are explained, I MIGHT go back and edit this comment) Well, it depends. As a reader, knowing the fundamentals of how a magic system works isn't really bad. But hiding/adding additional systems/rules that expand it and the readers understanding of how those rules can be used is, in my opinion, the better approach than just keeping the inner workings vague (i think that was what you are saying). It allows new revelations to be understood by readers without looking like some random "a wizard did it" event. The problem with mediclorians was not that it explained the force. It only made ones connection to it meassureable and explained why some people were force sensitive and others weren't. The problem was that it didn't add anything. Outside the novels, mediclorian transplantaion or the removal of them to take away the force, like aang did to the firelord, was never shown. It was a "on cute" addition whose consequences were never explored. The force itself was still just as mysterious as before. Just explained why people could use it. Another good example for me for magic as LITERAL science is Full Metal Alchemist: The rules are: You can't create nothing without giving something, an alchemist needs access to either tectonic energy or must understand the flow of mnatural energy between objects to use it, and you need to know the inner workings of the effect you want to invoke and then transfer it into an transmutaion circle. Why a ring? Cause it represents the circle of life. So when father just casually disrupts the transfer of tectonic energy, and only xing people still hav epowers, we can extrapolate, even if we were had been never told. It makes the Phylosopher stone way more broken, by breaking the rules without breaking them. But those are all additions that were given after the reader knew the basics. So , yes, I think treating magic like science is really good. Give people the basics and every new thing that either uses the system to do something new and crazy, or beliveably brakes the rules is even more hype. Yes, It might take away the mystery of "how did you do this?" but it adds a completely new dimension to the story. Reader participation and rewarding them for paying attention. Even maybe seeing new powers and twists coming and being hyped for it. Because you can only have the "uuh magic" feeling only so often before it all starts blending together. But noone will mistake JJKs system with alchemy or with bending. And noone will mistake it with Mistborns strange metal based magic. Yet the I can't tell you a single thing about tokliens magic or tell the difference to harry potter outside you need wands and words and for one, magic sometimes happens. And that is ok. But if I want that feeling, I go to tolkin, or maybe wheel of time. I want that feeling, but flashy? Potter, Or maybe the Secret History Books. But that's just it. I think it becomes way more magical if people know what the rules are. Because just like with writing, if you know the rules, thinking about it once the story is over will people still exited, and not wondering why gandal didn't just plow the way, aside from "the plot must happen". It also helps with character progression, seeing how they figure out new things with just the basic knowledge. And you can still have the mysterious feeling. Maybe you can enchant things with your science by binding a will to it. and the stronger the will, the stronger the spell. But you can only make it do stuff that are possible. So no Object unbraking itself, but opening a door on its own when a certain word is spoken. So, yeah, having a core set of unchangable rules that can not be broken or interpreted in a different way to change the entire basis is in my opinion the better approach. Having hidden additions that recontextualize them, but keeping the core rules intact. Like, noone will ever dispute that 1+1=2. That is a core rule to me. unshakeable. Unless the other person if on drugs, but that'S your problem then, not mine. They are in a different dimension at that moment. It is a good video, but I think your logic is a bit flawed on this one. I agree with some of it, especially about not explaining every little detail ( i like to just imply it), but the core argument as I understand it isn't entirely right to me. That is of course all based on the fact that I understood the central argument correctly. If not, Well, i stand by my core arguments, but they are not in oppositon then. But if you make a "magic is science" setting, plase make sure you don't just go: "yeah, everything you knew before was kinda wrong". Thanks Korra season 2. I still hate you for that. Fucking kite.
My tips would be if you go into a hard magic system: Don't go into conceptual elemental ability. Keep stuff like space, time, soul magic as the top tier of your verse and then don't power creep above it. Keep it's potential limited. If it's simpler elements, then you can think of ways to utilise them and combine them. And if you go into high fantasy with long lived species, gods and shit, make it so that power increase changes you. Please, don't make character shout the spell name. Basically, Avatar the last airbender on steroïds.
@@poutineausyropderable7108 Nah, vocal magic spells should be fair game. That said, it is a good idea to place some limits on what the magic can do, else not only can it get very crazy too fast, but you are more likely to use the magic in a lazy way if everyone can get exactly what they want with it. Restrictions encourages creative use.
@zettovii1367 vocal magic exists purely for the reader, so we might know what's being cast. Or based of old wives tell of witches speaking nonsense. The thing is: Why would something ethereal as magic need your vocal cord to activate, rather than your mind or soul. It can work, but it's often cringe or just feel straight up artificial. For novel, just use single quote for when character think, and double for when they speak. Or [] when an ability activate, but the word isn't necessarily thought. So [fireball] > 'fireball' >>> "fireball". Also, for the love of god, keep basic physics in. Like, You can't have a little girl weighing 50 pounds swing a 100 pound sword, go fight against a giant dragon and make the dragon fly away with that attack. The little girl will be accelerated backward twice as fast as the sword will be accelerated forward, and if she pushes the dragon, she'll be sent into orbit. Learn the difference between mass and weight. Weight = mass * gravity strength. Mass is how are hard you are to accelerate. That breaks conservation of momentum in so many way. When you swing a sword, the sword swing you (3rd law). And shear mass should stay important. It doesn't always decide the outcome of a clash, but a 10x mass difference should require 10x more magic to overcome. (Or something like that). Magic should be a buff, like a multiplier, so stuff like base mass and base strength should always apply. You'd need magic buff to be an ethereal 4th dimension construct attached to your body fot it to be additive. The explanation behind it is really weird. A simple magic system is like a physics, except it adds extra terms, like source terms. Ie, when magic creates a fireball, you can think of it as if there was just some propane in. Or just change initial condition: Ie, a train moving at 100mph due to natural cause should hit as hard as a train moving at 100mph due to magic. What you have freedom on is the physical shape that it takes, like you don't need a reason to explain why it's possible to compress winds into wind blade. And you don't need to follow the available amount from physics. Ie, there exist a limited amount of material out there, and so, there's a strongest material. There's also finite difference between material, so some values are impossible to achieve. Basically, a magic fireball has no power limit, but a chemical fireball has one. Any science nerd, even kids that just watched lots of youtube video probably know a bunch of simple life facts. (Like absolute cold is -273.15 C and you can't go colder then that, so if you want cold magic, it will need "Cold" to be a thing that exist, not just a lack of heat. or else, it will be very weak. As absolute 0 still takes days to visually freeze you. So, no turning people into ice cube. )
@@poutineausyropderable7108 "Why would something as ethereal as magic need your vocal cord to activate, rather than your mind or soul" Maybe within the setting the voices is treated as a holy thing itself? Much how songs sometimes is treated as an expression of the soul, language itself can be treated as the medium to communicate with spirits, and through them grant world altering comands. Just cause something is ethereal, it doesn't mean it gotta be psychic in nature. So you can literally think up anything as the means of activating it. Wether it be via vocal spells, body gestures, writings, or what have you. The only magical laws that applies to your fantasy realm, are the ones you have decided for it yourself. And heck, if you think an idea is cool, then no reason to not go with it, no matter how implausible it is in real life, fiction have the freedom to work with other standards. This also applies to other things like having tiny chars wield equipment much bigger than themselves. Even when consistency is very important for story telling, the consistency you follow doesnt have to be one based on other existing work. You can just go with whatever suits the story you want to tell. Wether it be Looney Toon physics or something more grounded, anything is fair game if it fits the story.
So I reas your description, read a few comments and watched the whole video and I don’t see how you got this conclusion about Jujutsu Kaisen. It essentially accomplished MOST of the things you ask for but it also has different goals altogether. Furthermore I would hesitate to even call it a “magic” system. At least not in the way that you employ it. I feel like you’re addressing the magic system as a mysterious feature of the world which is fine, but Jujutsu Kaisen is beyond that. In the animanga community, these are called “power systems.” They do have effects on the world and they do tell stories without the need for explanation, and they do push the readers to ask questions. I’ll give examples but they also need to be explained for the sake of one of the main draws of the narrative which is the battles. The rules of Nen or Jujutsu make these battles interesting and compelling to the reader. We may not get a story beforehand explaining how they work without it being told to us, but we’re still given stories about the magic and how it effects the characters and the world beforehand. My best example which covers most of this is Gojo. SPOILERS! If you haven’t read up to current stop. Gojo’s “magic” effected the world around him since birth and caused jujutsu society to as a whole become weaker because they relied on him, caused curses to get stronger, limited the power of the higher ups in that society, and caused more nefarious sorcerers to go into hiding, just because he existed and had the six eyes and limitless. His power alone also motivated a foreign invasion into Japan to kidnap sorcerers for their energy potential. His power also led him to feel extreme isolation from others and he was unable to understand other humans. He was essentially a god. Which is why the question of “are you Gojo because you’re the strongest… “ you know the rest. Works so well. And that arc concludes when he dies and meets someone who can actually meet him on his level and has the capacity to understand him. Everything I just explained is world building based in magic, character based story telling based in magic. The infinity LITERALLY AND FIGURATIVELY makes him unable to connect with others. This character work through power systems is found with other characters. See the family issues of Choso and the Kamo’s and their ability being blood based, see the Fever and Hakari the restless gambler. See Maki. And explaining the power system is essential in battles and leads to more questions. Gojo vs Sukuna is compelling because it stretches what we know revealing that there even is opportunity among what’s explained for mystery. We know the six eyes makes CE consumption as efficient as possible but what if you’re doing rule breaking tech over and over over and healing death injuries over and over and over, and domain expanding over and over and over? While Sukuna did rely on Mahoraga to win it’s a commonly held belief that he could’ve won without just in a battle of attrition. Gojo was repeatedly doing insane things in battle that literally did cripple him in battle. He would’ve lost earlier had he not gotten a few seconds of domain on Sukuna. Explanations in the context of conflict isn’t an inherently bad thing and it can actually enhance the experience and engage the reader. It sounds like you just don’t get the appeal of battle systems and then compared jjk to a fantasy setting when they have two very different goals. They do a lot of the same stuff but to have all the same expectations is silly. A series so focused on battles can’t afford to be too vague.
Counter argument. One example among many of a highly explained magic system that inspires imagination and mystery is the nen system from Hunter X Hunter. It is based both on personality types and a rule where the more of a handicap a user gives themselves the stronger abilities they can develop. A part of nen fights is then to discover each others handicaps which can be anything from not stepping on the crack in pavements to needing to learn a secret of their target.
This is true, but HxH also has times where pacing, an important element of storytelling, is chucked out the window for explaining a new element of nen. I mean...the end of the Chimera Ant arc is a perfect example. The amount of exposition in that part is absolutely insane. If you like it, that's fine, but at the end of the day if you're writing a story then it's a story and it needs to be paced.
I feel like there is a bit of a catch using Frieren as reference for how to exposit your magic system. Which is that it also isn't an action story. Some narratives have combat as the main draw or at least take up a good chunk of the center stage. Which would require a more in depth understanding and often contains combat with more complex structures. In Frieren most variants of magical abilities are rather basic even when applied. Not that there lacks tactics or forethought from the combatants, but ir's just isn't as heart thumping, tense or thought provoking as say a fight in early Naruto, Record of Ragnarok or Kengan Asura. Frieren's fights often don't really have layers upon layers of nuance from both parts. It'll have just enough to make it not a simple fight of might makes right, but far from anything super deep that is beyond very basic tactics. It results in fights that maintain enough interest as to not become stale and look cool too, but you're probably not coming for the fights to begin with nor are you holding these fights in particularly high regard when comparing it to actual battle manga. Frieren doesn't need to go that extra mile, but a different story will require different styles of writing.
Good video though it isnt a rule to not explain a magic system . You can show and explain it , a good example is HXH (hunter X hunter) which explain a lot of it magic system yet it just leave you even more curious about what possible in it and what its limit .
A lot of Brandon Sanderson's work shows this as well. Allomancy from Mistborn has extremely rigid and well understood rules from the beginning. A good magic system doesn't really need to be "mysterious" so much as have interesting potential. Nen is a particularly good example, because its very well explained but everyone has their own "Hatsu" and restrictions, which gives the characters a lot of room to do interesting things.
Yeah, but I didn't really like the magic system until they showed me what you could do with it through our main characters. And it didn't become a great system until I saw what Kurapika could do with it. Not to mention, the writer found a good way of making it concise. "You put a restriction on yourself, and the power of your Nen will increase."
@@geckgeck8616 It's true that Allomancy seems very strict, but I think that is because every other rule it has stems from at least 1 key rule: "Burn a certain metal to use a certain power. Despite the main eight powers being explained all at once, the series still continues to expand what Allomancy can actually do. Vin had a revelation about using the Copper and Bronze powers at the end of book 1, the Aluminum and and Duralumin powers were properly discovered in book 2, the Temporal and Enhancement powers were categorized in the sequel series, and that isn't even covering the other 2 magic systems in MIstborn, which also expand over time. What I am trying to say is, Allomancy isn't as rigid as you may think. It may seem that way because Sanderson often explains his systems in entire chapters, but you have to remember that he writes books, which can do that better than mangas and shows and other visual storytellers.
@@ScritRighteridk, some stories are just not about the wonder and incredibleness of the magic system, but just about how some people use the magic rules that are already known. Not all stories need to make the reader ask questions about the magic system there may just be a story anout people using the magic or the system. If there is not enough explained everything just become a "wizzard did it" and it just breaks immersion if anything can just be explained "it's magic so whatever"
Wonder if I should do a video about hard magic and soft magic since some people seem to be confused about my advice here. The advice I'm giving applies to both types of magic systems. Even hard magic systems should have ambiguity, debate, and speculation. Even FMA, one of the hardest magic systems in fiction, often left portions of that magic system as a mystery. In fact, a great deal of the show and the adventure of FMA has to do with uncovering the mysteries of alchemy and the creation of a philosopher's stone. This is an example of how you can apply my advice to a hard magic system. I'm not advocating for soft magic systems, I'm advocating for not YAPPING about your magic system until i'm bored out of my mind!
I mean, you do raise a lot of good points... Namely in how the magic systems are better when used to explore themes for the story, as opposed to giving paragraphs of exposition. Or how it's great to give some level of uncertainty in how the magic system works, because that's the only way it can be like real life science, which mostly are theories but can get an evolving perception depending on what's discovered... It's just I think you went a little too hard on saying that there is no appeal at all at treating a magic system as a science, while praising too much systems like The Force which is very vague and barely defined. It gave a sense of too much bias for soft magic, with no appreciation for hard magic.
You don't understand the "yapping" about magic systems is what makes it Hard, A Magic System being Hard or Soft completely depends on how much the reader understands it. You just don't like JJK's style and think your preference should be a universal standard when JJK is not the only series that has used that style to great effect and won't be the last, and those series are praised. Why don't you instead ask yourself....why people like systems that involve what you derisively call "yapping" and save yourself and others 30 minutes of your own "yapping." Because you come across as lacking self awareness and being pretentious. If your going to tell basically everyone that disagrees with you you are wrong, you better bring better receipts.
I think your mistake is on presentation. "Magic CAN'T be Science." Hard magic system will naturally be science. you can't get away from it. There are strict rules, like how physics is. You can't do this with magic without this imposible barrier like you can't achieve light speed without 0 mass. What I think you are saying is not to lecture your audience about magic but to demonstrate said magic system. With scientific demonstation you lack the numbers and atomic details, that is the mystery. But you still know what is going on with said science demonstation.
Now with Frieren. Frieren magic IS science with obvious display of magic being lectured, studied, and inovated upon. Magic is about visualization is a rule as it is the physics of magic, Zoltraak is a specialized killing spell turned obsolete with scientific development of the most basic defensive spell, the property and efficiency of defense spell is also treated as science. Just to add to the discussion.
@@dpolaristar4634 FMA's Hard Magic 'Yapping': Matter cannot be created nor destroyed, only transformed if you have the correct elements. Philosopher stones are the exception, however, and uncovering the truth about them is what sets us on our adventure! JJK's Hard Magic YAPPING: Human beings generate cursed energy and diffuse it into the world where curses become real, but no one can truly see them. Also, this only happens in Japan (for some reason). Sorcerers are people who are innately gifted with the ability to insulate their cursed energy from the rest of the world and use it to gain magic powers. But they don't always get cursed techniques. And sometimes they never get good because sorcery is really a matter of talent. Anyways, a jujutsu sorcerer can also make the potency of their technique even stronger by YAP- explaining how their technique works to their enemy. Because sorcery is stronger when people understand it more, sorcers themselves can also get stronger when they deepen their understanding of cursed energy. Also, the soul and the body are the same thing. Or rather, they are different. But like also the same. Anyways, that's to say that Toji is all body and no soul, but enough about him, where was I? Oh yes, cursed energy. Now, there are these things called 'domain expansions' and it's basically a tug of war where the sorcerer creates an extraplanear domain from their cursed energy. These domains have a 'sure hit' effect which basically means they can never miss their target once they've trapped their target in a domain with them. Domains are easier to break into on the outside than they are on the inside because they are usually made to keep people trapped in them. Also, technically domains don't HAVE to have the sure-hit effect, that was just something someone invented hundreds of years ago, and no one really bothered to make an easier domain or teach less advanced domains to other sorcerers. SPEAKING OF domains, there is something called a 'simple domain' which is like wearing a scuba suit underwater where you isolate yourself from someone else's domain. Now, people don't usually use domain expansions because it can really burn you out. Unless you're Gojo or Sukuna and you can expand your domain numerous times. BY THE WAY there is also something called 'reversed curse technique' which is basically like taking a negative number and multiplying it by another negative number. In other words, it takes negative energy and turns it into positive, which then allows the user to heal themselves at double the cost of normal cursed techniques. There's also cursed weapons which are capable of a bunch of different things including ignoring other cursed techniques for some reason. Anyways, where was I? Oh yeah, cursed techniques! They come in a wide variety, but I think I will go into one of my favorites: Hikari! You see, Hikari needs to be pretty lucky to use his curse technique. It's kinda like a gacha game... or a lottery? I dunno, anyways, it's a 1/263 chance to win the lottery and he does it a lot. But basically if he expands his domain- which by the way isn't a normal domain with the sure-hit effect- he can win the lottery and become IMMORTAL even though he doesn't know how to RCT, but anyways Hikari also has special cactus cursed energy which feels like getting hit with nails even though it's not really his technique or anything, it's just how he is. Anyways, he's a hands and feet merchant who deals hands and feet to his energy while he is functionally immortal and stuff. For four whole ass minutes his cursed energy comes out of nowhere and heals any injury he has. And oh man, I forgot to tell you about how Kirara's technique works! Okay, so when you look at a star constellation-
I've been doing worldbuilding a lot lately and this video brings up a lot of great questions and good advice, thank you! I really love how the magic system is handled in Frieren
Your understanding of the force, as many others is likely very wrong. Medichlorians do not produce the force. They simply dwell in force users. Random people have them and others are completely resistant. It's like having a second heart as a mutation, but it's always the power source for magic. I may be wrong, but if what you say is true, snd considering the clone tech thats possible, why haven't anyone like grievious adopted it to give non force users force powers. We know from anakin you use the force through your body, but it also works with his metal arm. That's holdo level lore breaking, except medichlorians appear in force users, not create force users.
Yes, his understanding of the force is incorrect. Midiclorians are just a way to guage force sensitivity: the force is not produced by the midiclorians. The idea that the force comes from midiclorians is a common misconception that fueled a lot of the fan resentment when it was introduced in Episode 1.
Even though i completely hard disagree that a more science like magic system isnt good, there's a lot of truth to the other stuff in the video so good video.
What you should not do: Introduce a villain that is so powerful, that you have to introduce a second villain who is even more powerful to kill the first villain. To reveal that the magic system was actually in fact not what you thought it was, but it only existed because of space ninjas who ate space fruit from a space tree. Which granted magical space powers to descendants of the second villain's twin children, after they killed the second villain the first time thousands of years ago. This way the deus ex machina that the main character and best friend receive is due to the fact that they are reincarnations of the twins to defeat the revived second villain.
My personal favorite magic systems are always ones that treat magic like a muscle that can be trained. You have some power source (like mana or magicka) that magic users can channel
This can actually help a lot. YT recommendations gave me something good to listen to. I should consider this, because my issue with establishing a definitive context on magic systems seems to give me so much burden, and hence complicates things and demotivates me to write. Thanks dude.
I'm gonna be honest, the "visualization" part of Frieren's magic system is 100% bullshit. Even the example that's given, Ubel being able to cut anything with her magic, is stupid. The idea that this spell can get through any defensive magic, simply because Ubel thinks it can, puts every other spell in question. Why aren't there more spells like this? How come the only one to hold this type of magic is Ubel (so far)? How come this same thought process hasn't been added to other types of magic like Zoltraak? In theory, the "Magic is just Visualization" thing seems fine, but the way it's used like in Ubel's magic is questionable. It's because with something like a black hole or something insanely destructive the idea is that you'd have to be able to visualize every single molecule or something to that degree for it to work. This makes sense to me and explains why few conjure up very destructive spells. It'd be the same as visualizing every atom splitting in an atomic bomb. But Ubel's magic implies that it doesn't have to be that deep. She just has to think that she can cut it with a knife. Makes me wonder how it can even be blocked with regular defensive magic. I've heard rationalizations that because she uses it herself she can't see herself cutting through it, but she can't see herself cutting around it? In this visualizational space, wouldn't that be what matters? But to be fair, I don't think we've directly seen how her cutting actually, y'know, cuts. From what I remember all we usually see are marks on walls appearing and people being cut in half, the cutting force itself is invisible (if I'm not mistaken). But at this point I don't even know if regular melee blocks can be blocked with defensive magic, because Radar's appearance in 125-126 has kind of put that into question because I don't think we've ever seen a defensive hex put against a straight melee attack. It could just be that this magic registers as a physical hit, and since defensive magic "might" not tank physical hits then it cuts through just fine. But it might have the condition of only working on defences she believes she can cut. I kind of hate shitting on certain fictional systems because it's not like it could never make sense, but often the story is at a point where it just doesn't make sense. But that's not to say that I hate this system. It doesn't make sense to me, but to be fair I don't live in a reality that has magic. I've often thought that if something incomprehensible were ever to exist it would have to make no sense, because it's incomprehensible. An example of this can be found in Christianity. To us humans, the idea that Jesus Christ is God and the Holy Spirit, and at the same time not God and the Holy Spirit is incomprehensible. It makes no sense to us. How can someone be something, but be separate to that something? How can the Holy Trinity be both the same thing, but a trinity? It makes no sense. But if you're a Christian, you believe this is just how it is. And that sums up my ideas on how some things just don't make sense, but can be true. Humans cannot perceive the divine, the same goes for otherworldly ideas. BTW there's also Frieren's pushing magic, wonder how that works. P.S. Goddess Magic seems so much more interesting to me than the regular magic in the Frieren world, hope they go more into it later in the manga. (even though they already somewhat went into it).
I think it's highly compressed air. The same type of magic as modern types of magic, which rely more on the manipulation of physical objects. It’s just that Ubel herself never explains the principle of her magic (obviously), so that the enemy thinks that it is more dangerous than it really is and spends more mana on protecting against it. (She was also able to block her own magic from her clone, which hints at the physical nature of her magic) But this is all speculation
@@Your_dear_friend9999 Your comment brings an interesting thought, what if Ubel is just lying about how her magic works? I think that'd be funny. I think it's somewhat unlikely though.
I think while there is 100% a quality factor to magic system, it also comes down to preference. Like you don’t like JJK heavy exposition and saying everything about their system and such, but for some I know, they love it for that. Like, that’s one reason Gojo vs Sukuna was so divisive. We spent the whole time thinking Gojo could win, ever since early on he said could beat him. And we learn about how Gojo’s ability works inside out. Then guess what. In the battle, he breaks those ‘rules’. Like exploding purple hollow mid trajectory and such. And then Sukuna does the same thing. And what’s made him interesting for my friends who read JJK is we still don’t know all of his abilities, cause apparently he hasn’t even used them all or something. The best magic system is one that works in harmony with your world, characters, plot and way of writing. You wouldn’t do JJK style magic system in Frieren and vice versa since they’re both written around their plot and style of work.
I legitimately think that the magic system in Frieren breaks the worldbuilding. This is a series centered around magic, but the anime (and manga) skips a bunch of questions about how spells work, for example: What is the deal with the staves? We've seen spells materialize out of the staff, out of magic circles, and even out of nowhere. We can clearly see Ubel swing her staff and then the cuts happen, but when she fights Wirbel she's just walking and the slashes are still happening. Another thing, if magic is all about understanding how you visualize the spell, and thus, how it interacts with the world, why is magic research so...briefly mentioned? We have Kanne over here who wants to be a first class mage with water magic but she can't do shit if there's no water, then they hit us with the "humans are 70% water but you can't visualize the water in the human body", but why??? Do water magicians simply do not care about studying water and how it impacts living beings? Is it really that difficult to visualize the blood in another persons body coming to a halt? And Richter can create mountains, so that means he can visualize the movement of every single speck of dust, every single atom even? Then we have Land, who is just a broken, he can control two clones (even more, actually) at the SAME time and have them walk hundreds of kilometers (because the alternative would be Land being capable of spawning his clones from really far away, but is far likelier that a clone can create another clone) and he's the supposedly the only one who knows this technique, somehow. Also, how would you even acquire such ability? I assume some families gatekeep grimoires or something but it's weird how we see random characters have crazy spells and everyone (except Ubel I guess) just goes "yep, that's their spell and no one else's" Won't say too much about Ubel, but consider this: If Ubel can just imagine cutting skin, then she would be capable of cutting Eisen in half. Innate warrior toughness you say? who cares, hair is meant to be cut am I right.
Ubel demonstrated the thought process in one scene. As she imagines that the fabric is easy to cut, she imagines that the enemy is in the place of fabric or that he is made of fabric, which is contrary to logic. Even a talented magician was surprised when he heard something like this from her, because this is outside the norm for this world. Richter most likely they do not create mountains, they simply imagine how they move the soil under their feet and lift it up. Most modern magic is based on the use of material objects, so manipulating them is much easier to imagine. However, Elves and Demons have a completely different way of using magic, even if it is the same for everyone, the method is different for everyone in their own way. And at the beginning we were shown how they studied the demon spell, which then became a basic attack spell. Why complicate the story in anime even more if the purpose of this story is not to reveal the structure of the world but simply to retell the story of Friren? The point of the story is not the magic, but what happens after the “BBG is defeated.”
It doesn't break the world building. Magic works in the way the user and defender believes it does. It just so happens that the vast majority of mages we see in Frierun are ones who have learned at academically. If you understand it as a science with rules then that's what it is. If you understand it as a boundless abstract art form than it is, and it's neither of those all at once. It's just magic, an oxymoron of itself. Controlled Chaos. Simultaneously an understandable concept based in logic and a fathomless concept based in arbitrarities, and that's the point. The literal manifestation of subjectivity. The reason it can be studied and replicated through grimoires, or focused through staves and incantations, is because that's what often works for people. Assigning logic aids in the visualization process. But with outliars like Übel, it reveals its true nature, or lack thereof. Übel is someone who casts purely off of instinct. She doesn't even understand the "rules" that others have coveted for so long in their academia, and so as long as she can latch on to something that is within her frame of reference, those "rules" don't apply to her. They don't even exist. Effectively magic is like "play". You can "play" in a lot of different ways. You can assign rules to create games, and battle against one another using those rules. Whoever is the most skilled at working within those rules will come out on top. Maybe you can create a game based on the debate of intelligence and logical deduction, or maybe you've created a game that's based on instinct and intuition, maybe you've created a game with almost no rules at all, but regardless, when you're fighting someone who's playing the same game it always comes down to who's more skilled at playing _that_ "game." But if someone else who is playing an entirely different game comes along, the cut and dryness of the battle is completely shifted, which is where the "rock-paper-scissors" effect comes in. Burg used what he understood about magic to enchant his cloak with so many charms that he could block every attack that he could possibly fathom. But you can't possibly fathom the nature of an attack from someone who isn't even abiding by the same fundamental rules of magic as you. You can't win a battle of academic logic against someone who just tells you "No, cloth is meant to be cut," and so all of those charms are meaningless. He never could have anticipated someone as completely detached from the reality he knows as Übel, while she on the other hand, knows what cloth is and what it's for. So she won, effortlessly. Magic battles in Frierun are battles of imagination, cunning, and willpower, manifested into magical effects.
5:40 i learned this in school and it gave me the idea to make a character with the power to manipulate heat, which they used to give the impression of ice magic. they can take the heat away from an object or person, making it "cold".
I don’t normally comment and usually not this often on one persons channel but literally the quality of these videos writing is top tier; concise, well paced, has interesting and relevant examples/analogies and has enough personality to make it unique. I look forward to seeing more of your work and I hope you get ur flowers for it
How you describe magic is how science is described... the rules are onyl somewhat understood and we only know it might be true because we can repeat it... Like most magic system (DND, Anima beyond, vampire the markarade. do the same thing get same result, pay with mana blood items etc...get predictable results, thus can be learned thus is science. The only magic system where the science part is weak would be chaos/warp/psyker power in the warhammers universes (both old world/age of sigmar and 40k)
Example: a magic system built on different types of magic. They CAN’T be mastered the same way, hell they can’t even be TAUGHT the same way. And in the hands of humans we can’t actually play God at all times due to circumstance variables
The idea that magic begins where science ends is a fantastical concept that allows a writer to pull off things that, given sufficient suspense of disbelief, seemingly naturally go far beyond what people think should be possible. On the other hand, the concept of magic being a science, with things like alchemy/summoning circles, and the like, usually based on the real life theory of Hermeticism (attributed to some Egyptian guy named Hermes, founded on the idea that god is a wizard, and thus all things are governed by systems of magic, and was the origin of alchemy) makes the suspension of disbelief a little easier for those who aren't looking for the Harry Potter experience. While magic as a science can get very dull if the story gets drowned out by a pseudo quantum physics lecture, using a system like Hermeticism can allow for amazing storytelling, with plenty of wiggle room for all levels of fantasy depending on how fast and lose you want to play it, as it was never truly concrete theory to begin with, just the best they had to go on for like a thousand or so years. However, while a lot of fantasy settings will throw back to it, I've heard it said that Hermeticism was so convoluted that Newton, who was raised on and devoted his life to it, invented calculus as a simple alternative, and that alone says a lot. xD For some, the fun is in digging through the minute details with a Sherlock style breakdown of how a thing happened, for others it's being vague enough to let the consumer imagine and wonder at how it all works - while the style that works best depends on the intended audience, ultimately, the real limitations are the creativity and talent of the writer, and the imagination of both them and their audience.
I knew I recognized your name from somewhere. You're the one who jebaited other people during a certain drama. I have to say though, I love listening to your writing videos. (Adding them all to my over 1,000 video playlist filled with writing & drawing videos to take notes. God fuck me.)
For me, I love it when they explored, expand and how it affects the world building. Mushoku Tensei is a perfect example and why I love it's world building and how the story progresses it
In my opinion, you misunderstand JJK. At 7:09 you say "your magic system shouldn't change too much but the perception you and your audience has of it should", but it is absolutely the case for JJK. Simply with a much more complex and intricate system. When you actually read the explanations, you see a great deal of novelty in how the characters of JJK use those concepts, and how the way a character uses them describe their psyche. There is a barrier to entry, but the payoff is only much higher because of that. If we take your science class analogy. You prefer middle school or high school science class, while disregarding college level science. And claiming the later has less magic to it. Which is not true, the barrier is higher but for a higher payoff.
Nah, JJK's magic system is extremely incoherent and gives off the impression that the author is extremely irresponsible to his own established rules, which is to say that he's very prone to arbitrarily bend and disrespect the logic of magic system he established before, just to pull off a little bit of shock value in the current progressing plot.
@@lab-virus This just isn't true, the characters aren't just bending or breaking the rules the closest they get to anything like this is by using techniques in a new way. Even then, you would have to list specific instances because I can't think of a single time they outright broke an established rule.
@@Cjaj2 The rule that JJK broke is the implicit existence of the power hierarchy of various individuals and curse techniques that the author had laid out across chapters. The author has a proclivity to simply conjure up some random BS that ostensibly adhere to the overarching universe of curse magic system but felt extremely inauthentic and haphazard in the way it's put together. As you're watching the show, you can't help but felt that this new shinning object introduced on the next new character felt like a far-fetched insertion of a gimmick that could have been plucked from any other random fantasy manga, we see the author repeatedly intended to impress fans with the next new surprise but fall so flat that these new characters settings or new techniques just came off as some arbitrary placement, as if they're a cheap trick inserted there just to serve a plot, like he can make up a bullshit technique out of nowhere just so that he can keep a character alive in a fight where he/she should have been long dead fighting an overwhelmingly more powerful opponent.
@@lab-virus Can you give an example rather than just.... Writing a paragraph complaining about the authors writing? The two replies were asking for EXAMPLES of rule breaking in JJK
14:39 I *really* liked this, because it was an almost completely unique concept that no one has done in recent times at least. His ultimate attack basically got turned into magic missile
In a story I have been planning the magic system is given several explanations with no definitive answers and different schools,cultures and people have different ideas around it with only very little being definitive fact, I feel that this gives enough explanation for fans who love to study powers systems in depth while still keeping things subjective enough to be up to one’s own interpretation.
I personally like hard magic systems. Understanding the ins and outs of how magic works and is scientifically studied within its setting triggers my imagination far more than a vague "a wizard did it" systems.
My dude, you have no idea how much I needed to find this video. I've been trying to put together a magic system for a book I'm doing which is an collection of short stories charting my character's life from young girl sold into slavery to upstart witch-general of a peasant revolution. However I could not write one word I didn't hate because her magic was so wishywashy, generic, and underwhelming. I was stuck using the old way of thinking, wherein I needed to come up with a fuel for my magic, a means by which it was transmitted (magic words, wands, etc), and a bunch of other crap. None of it worked, and I hated all of it as it (ironically) felt too limiting while being too generic and broad. Skip ahead to my finding this video and I realised I had been approaching this from the wrong perspective entirely. So instead I sat down and just said "Okay, magic can do anything it wants, anytime it wants - How do I impose rules on that which limits its problem-solving ability in the narrative, punishes anyone who abuses it to enforce consequences and therefore a consistent internal logic, and maintain the mystery while utilising a set of rules only I know". I sat down, broke my magic down into the two forms I wanted, plus a subset for the first form that's kind of a forbidden splinter (not as generic as it sounds I promise) and wrote a concise, tight set of rules for each. Now I, finally!, have a magic system I love. By focusing on writing a list of rules as the backbone, then overlaying that with the existing world-building, I was able to hit all the points I needed. It's now broad enough for my imagination to do the heavy lifting while keeping my focus narrow and the problem-solving ability consistent. You have no idea how grateful I am for the inspiration you gave me. I watched like 20-30 videos on building magic systems, and it turns out I just needed 1 video explaining that "No you don't need a magic system, you need a set of rules to create a precise internal logic and you build from there". Awesome video. Subbed, liked, and obviously commented which I almost never do on this site. Just needed to express my genuine gratitude.
I really like your explanation of the Force. It used to be like, a more spiritual experience to do with control and lack of control, though that's debatable, I really liked it like that. Where it's more connection to the world and peace. You know? It's just more interesting when it's speculative, like you said.
Ki, Chakra, and Cursed Energy are less 'Magic' systems than 'Power' Systems, only one close to magical is Chakra amoung the lesser informed in the Naruto world. Ki is clearly not magic, as magic itself exists in DB. We should stop labeling everything 'Magic' systems and make the broader term a 'power' system, because whimsical magic systems aren't the objective
These terms are indistinguishable. Magic system doesn't literally mean magic (and that's ignoring that cursed energy is literally Japanese shamanistic magic mixed with modern occultism, and ki and Chakra are both based on the same exact Eaten mysticism). "Magic system" is a literary term to refer to supernatural phenomenon used as plot devices in fiction. The characters don't have to call it magic, and being able to shoot energy and fly would be called magic no matter how the series describes it if it was real life. Brandon Sanderson, when he made the term up, used Spider-Man as an example of a hard magic system. "Power system" is just a giveaway that you're talking about shonen, and shonen fans are notoriously adverse to having their media referred to as fantasy. And yes, all three of those series are fantasy. DB is an adventure fantasy, Naruto is epic fantasy, and JJK is urban fantasy.
@@muntu1221 The only reason I made that comment was because a 'magic system' carries a different connotation, and this people expect it too be mysterious. Power system doesn't carry this conotation.
It's all magic - it doesn't matter if it's life force, mana, or ancient technology, it all fulfils the same role in the story of some force that the existence of is impossible in our world, and that can best be generalised as "magic". The matter replicator and the warp drive are essentially equally as "magical" as the balrog and the dragon, the only difference is the precise label and the vibes that are attached.
@@dinoseen3226 You missed the guy's point twice. Literally just read his 2nd last reply to see that he understand what _"magic"_ means here, and that it's not the point.
Notice that most the comments disagree with you and maybe you can learn what other's like about storytelling that you might be missing. I know as the content creator you probably consider it your role to educate everyone else. But your sort of assertion with the word choice you use in this video implies that what makes some system "better" is not merely your opinion, but either more objective or at the very least intersubjective. But when the majority of people fail to agree with your explanation, maybe it's time to either tone it back much more into the "this is my take and most don't agree" camp, or keep your intersubjective approach but admit you are wrong. People love hard magic systems. People love the concrete feeling that a character in the story can make purposeful and meaningful improvements because they have learned about the magic and acted in response to learning. It's also generally enjoyable to know your magic system isn't being used as a crutch for bad writing. A magic system that is too loose leaves any potential outcome on the table from the perspective of the viewer, which lowers the stakes. If something with the magic happens that is possible under your secret "under the hood" mechanics but the viewer doesn't see that stuff at all, it seems like you have nothing "under the hood" and just want the magic to solve plot problems for you. The softer the magic system the harder it is for viewers to get invested in how events would logically play out because you've provided a doorway for a much wider variety of things to occur that technically can. And in the most loose sense, you underestimate how much people actually enjoy learning. Those science and history demonstrations ironically proved you wrong. Bill Nye didn't teach us things we don't understand, he taught us largely consensus science, stuff we know to be true, he just did it in an entertaining way. He wasn't purposely being vague and hiding details about the topic for a sense of mystery, he was rising to the challenge of demonstrating facts in an engaging manner. That's what a good magic system can do.
I don't care too much for an appeal to popularity when it comes to deciding if I'm 'wrong' or not. "More people agree with me" is not a metric by which I establish my values or beliefs, and if it was those beliefs wouldn't really be mine. I don't really care if people disagree or don't fully understand. That's fine. If anything I've found more people misunderstand my advice than actually disagree with it because during their long winded arguments they will argue what I literally advocate for. My own book is a hard magic system, and I never said there was an issue with a hard magic system. I said there's an issue with too much useless exposition in a magic system, and that 'complex' is not 'compelling'. That definitive answers are not as interesting as theories and speculation and they never will be.
@@ScritRighter Appeal to popularity matters when the metric by which you are defining "good" and "bad" is intersubjective. Your language implies that you aren't being subjective but rather stating facts about what is good and bad. Maybe I'm wrong and you think your position on this is objective, in which case that's pretty crazy but at least it's consistent.
@@bigboy2217 Appeal to popularity is a logical fallacy so I don't give it much credence. If you think i'm giving this advice as the only way to write magic systems or that it's objectively correct I mean- sure it's subjective in some regards, but in other regards there are objective methods of writing which can make your story better. You are wrong, but it's not the 'wrong' you're assuming. You're just wrong lmao. Appeal to popularity doesn't matter when determining something is good or bad. I've got what I believe and I don't care how many people agree with it. You're gonna need a more convincing argument than "Well everyone else thinks this way!" If I didn't think I had something new or different to offer to the conversation around writing there would be no point to the video aside from affirming what other people already believe.
@@ScritRighter Subjective - Good or bad is contingent on your personal preference Objective - Good or bad is independent of the thoughts or stance of any person Intersubjective - Good or bad is made by generalizing or averaging the subjective positions of a group of people, basically convention. Thinking “that’s a fallacy lol” wrt intersubjectivity is like some dunning-krueger misuse of that fallacy. It’s akin to responding to “Obama won the election so he’s president” to “Wow appeal to popularity fallacy bro”. Appeal to popularity generally applies because the collective perspectives of people generally aren’t causally related to the claim. In this case they are, because every time you talk it appears as if you are using an intersubjective standard of good and bad. You can “objectively” track if an act is in line with a convention. For example it’s objectively the case that giving somebody the middle finger in America is rude. But the convention itself is just that, a convention, which is intersubjective not objective. The fact that people consider it an insult to do that motion quite literally makes it rude.
@@bigboy2217 I've recognized the fallacy correctly from your statement. You said "You should change your opinion because the 'majority' of people in this comment section disagree with you." That is an appeal to popularity no matter how you try to condescendingly explain the difference between subjective, objective and intersubjective. I don't care about the intersubjective either because an appeal to popularity doesn't give a shit about whether or not what's popular is intersubjective or not. And in your example you also fail to recognize that electoral offices do not win by a vote of popularity, they win by electoral votes. There have been numerous occasions where the more 'popular' presidential candidate has lost. Also, you're correct in saying that calling out a presidency as an 'appeal to popularity' to be stupid and wrong. That's because it's not an argument, it's a state of office. Saying "Obama was voted president" Is a matter of fact, it's not an appeal to popularity. So someone saying "That's an appeal to popularity" is an idiot who doesn't know what an appeal to popularity is. Obama is a president and was inaugurated as a president under the US government. That's not a matter of opinion or rhetoric. YOUR argument, IS an appeal to popularity though. And you're either too stubborn or too much of a knowitall to acknowledge it. So you've tried (and failed) to distinguish YOUR logical fallacy and pretend as if there is any criteria to ad populum. Saying: "Notice that most the comments disagree with you and maybe you can learn what other's like about storytelling that you might be missing." Is ad populum. Then you go on to say that if my goal is to educate I should appeal more to the people i'm 'educating' when A) My goal isn't to educate it's to explore ideas about writing and give advice based on my preferences as a writer B) As if a teacher must appeal to their student's popular opinion to convey a lesson they're trying to teach because it might offend their sensibilities. Beliefs change, and it doesn't matter how many believe in something. Saying people in my audience disagree with me and therefore I am wrong is not a valid argument nor a critique. Especially when- and you ignored this part- the majority of people from my perspective seem to agree, but they think they disagree because they've misunderstood what I was saying. They're not arguing with what I believe or what i've said in my video, they're arguing with what they assume I've said.
Showing instead of telling is very important. When I reveal the magic system in my novel, there's mentions of it here and there, and the basics of it get explained through a character interactions that moves the plot forward ... and even then the scene is more focused on the bond of the brothers than the magic itself. The brothers discussing magic and one offering to help the other one with something he's struggling with serves the purpose to help the brothers bond, but it also helps reveal the basic rules of the world's magic. There's also something unpredictable about magic as a whole, because it is a fundamental cosmic force. It can be guided along patterns, but not controlled. Of course this, too, is never said outright. It's simply something you notice as you follow the story of the brothers. Throughout the time of the story the world is also evolving and advancing, and because of the unpredictable and often dangerous nature of magic, the discovery of technology makes the use of it more and more rare as time goes on. Technology is mathematical and mechanical, it does what is expected of it, does what it is built for. If well built, it is predictable and safe. Magic, however, is not a force that can be fully controlled. It is raw and wild. It is more comparable to an animal trained with conditioning and treats. It will, much of the time, do as it is directed to do, but it's not guaranteed and even the most practiced, skilled practitioner can't guarantee success or the spell to do what they want it to do. I use this to move the plot forward a LOT, it's an effective tool and pushes character development forward in many scenes.
@@ScritRighter Showing instead of telling was something I struggled with for so long, I get a lot of useful videos in my recommends and this gave me lots to think about, and made me feel encouraged about my magic system! I realized how many of the pitfalls I avoided falling into which has me wanting to sit down and write again! I have clear rules set in my mind... And it's so hard not to exposit it all right away because I am excited about its potential, but having notes and a personal outline has helped me with that... And brainstorming buddies who don't mind me rambling and hyperfixating for weeks at a time lmfao. I have everything written down for me to refer back to just so I can stay consistent... Even with the spanner in the works thrown by various cosmic forces and energies, Eldritch entities, and all the other strangeness that happens in the world. The world is full of unknowable forces and entities.... But I think I have managed to make it pretty consistent. Course... I need to actually finish my novel instead of perfectionist looping over what I have already written...
One pet peeve I have with magic systems is that they seem like they can do literally ANYTHING like making characters invincible, creating and solving every problem and can control basically anything like space, time and reality itself.
i read one book where they could do all that impossible stuff but it took so much energy that it would just straight kill you if you tried anything too difficult. So everyone sticks to small explosions and simple yet clever maneuverings of magic.
@@colorpg152 That makes it boring, if there is no risk all reward you might as well be casting "win now" and "win now but it beats the other win now". Like when a fighting game releases a character that breaks all the balancing rules. We don't like it because it's not fun. I'd be all for the crazy reality changing magic if it forced users to sacrifice something, like sealing away their own magic from overuse for an incredible amount of time leaving them vulnerable to other fights or the permanent removal of magic. That way it creates a sense of balance and makes it so that there is a reasonable way to use magic but also a good reason not to use magic.
@@Thelisreal-sh3tz it only makes it boring if you have a soft magic system like he want, if you have a hard magic system then its about preparation and finding weak points, counters and loopholes in the enemy ability, if you limit magic from entering the realm of gods and doing things like messing with time space life death and souls then you are left with 3 choices: 1- these levels of threat never show up which just boring and reducing scope for no reason, 2- they have to rely on things like gods to help them in which case you are being anti-humanist 3- you don't have those things show up at all in which case why even write about magic, go write about romance mystery or other mundane things
5:50 - temperature is simply a measurement of the energy in an object/area. Thus heat death is the expected end pint of everything so I'm more fearful of this than earth warming up again.
I’ve always loved the idea of magic having consequences. whenever I think about adding powers to my own world, I like to add a reason not to use it. kinda inspired from mha, how weirdly enough, their quirks are reasonable mutations. and most are inherited/combinations of their parents. and all of them have good drawbacks (fire/ice quirks overheating/causing frostbite, hence enji wanted a kid with both to cancel out. how dabi isn’t immune to his fire- but weak to it. how using too much electricity short circuits kaminari, etc etc) with some of the magic mentioned here I thought about cool ways to detour them. fair warning, might ramble on a bit, teleportation would be like, either travelling through yourself, or opening a portal through time and space to go where you need. but going through that dimension and coming back out takes a toll on your body. I like the idea of time magic taking time off your own life, so it’s less desirable to creatures wth a short life- though, to those with an immortal lifespan, (or even just a large one) it’s like child’s play. on that note, immortals. I don’t think it has much realism, even in fantasy. instead of ACTUALLY living forever, it makes more sense for it to ALLOW you to live forever. you can still be killed by outside forces, or yourself if immortality grows tiring, but are immune to things like aging. your body would instead age slower beyond a certain point, before halting altogether. (or perhaps a spell causes it, halting your age there) necromancers are interesting. of course, there’s the whole “morality” argument, but excusing that.. I rarely see anyone mention side effects. I imagine someone who performs necromancy would slowly deteriorate, their body becoming gross and zombie-like until they lose all sense of self. eventually, they’d become essentially brain-dead, their body but a husk of who they once were. or perhaps you need to sacrifice another being to bring one back. like soul swapping of sorts. regardless, ANY sort of revival has to come at a price. if its as easy as “gather 3 rare ingredients and read this spell”, it negates the impact of a death. if its so easy, what’s to stop from reviving the main characters whole dead family? if you’re reviving someone, there needs to be a reason, and consequences. maybe you sacrifice multiple people for one, and they’re brought back as a husk of their former self. what body do they take? is their old one still viable, or do they inhabit a new one? does the old host get kicked out, or do they fight for control? anyways. I like playing around with this idea lol (gonna edit more in in a sec, my ipads glitching like hell lol)
19:28 Someone explained it really well in that a good thing can give the heroes the tools they need to fix the problem, but they can't get rid of the problem. That's why a lot of people hate luck, but a lot of times it's completely fine if you work with it.
Recently read a manhwa with a power up within the midst of battle that was done really well. It's called Infinite Mage. It was actually built up to. It's something everyone knows about but was considered too dangerous to attempt. However, it's something everyone wants to be able to achieve. When it's attempted in the story. It's done as a means of last resort and there are actual tangible consequences. It didn't come out of no where. It also wasn't done as some climactic last attack. It was done to enhance something we knew the protagonist and many other mages could do. But not fast enough to be helpful in that situation. In the aftermath, everyone knows what happened and it isn't some major revelation. However, we get to see each characters unique perspective on the issue I have a lot of issues with these more generic manhwa but this plot point was handled spectacularly well
If you wanna look at a really cool magic system, please do yourself a service and check out Witch Hat Atelier, probably the most creative magic I've seen in years! I'm certain you'd like it, this manga is incredible in general. For me personally, even if I do share your opinion on JJK to an extent, I also dislike how things are done in Frieren. In Frieren, even if it's delivered better, the thing being delivered feels so bland that I didn't get any excitement out of it. When they did explain how things work more in detail (like how older mages have more mana), there's nothing to really chew on and you could guess the vast majority of it just by thinking about the usual fantasy tropes. It's not vague because it hints something cool, it's vague because its extremely generic and it couldn't deliver more if it tried. When it did, it really fell flat for me (Ubel can cut things because... She just can, okay?). The way people acquire magic in this universe also played into that: In Frieren, you get stronger by sitting on your a*s reading a book for X months/years. I understand it plays into the themes of the story, but it's such a horrible way to view learning, when there are plenty of examples of fun organic learning in this very show!
You make a very interesting and valid point about history and science. When I was eleven years old, in 6th grade, I had a science teacher and it was something that he said that's stuck with me to this day, that's the reason love science I think. He told us on the first day of class that everything he was about to teach us was a lie. Or rather, it was wrong. That was a bit of an exaggeration lol, but it got our attention (or at least it got mine). Like, what? Why are you teaching us this if it's wrong? He then elaborated and said that it's correct now but years from now, as we learn more and more, some of the stuff he taught us will no longer be true. Certain theories and scientific principles, even the periodic table, is prone to change. Just like you said, we are always learning more; scientists are always disproving, analyzing and improving, and proving different theories about the world and the way we understand it to work. Idk what my other classmates thought, but his words inspired and excited me! It didn't make me care less about the lessons he taught us, if anything it made me more eager to learn them! The thought that we are always learning and discovering, and what is true today may not be true tomorrow. Even old and well-established theories aren't immune, and that thought excited me. It meant a world of possibilities! So when you said that it really struck a chord with me and I think you're right, it's the stories and a balance between explanation and mystery that makes for good magic systems and is what makes history and science so fascinating. Some fantasies may lean more towards one side or the other, but so long as you don't go overboard and explain EVERY painstaking detail, or the opposite, withhold too much and not explain anything, I think you will find people that like your story.
Hard Magic vs Soft Magic has their own advantages and disadvantages. Due to the mysterious nature of Soft Magic, it truly feels like magic. Due to the understandable nature of Hard Magic, it creates clear limits. Hard Magic can't feel mysterious, but Soft Magic can't feel clever. The Fairy God Mother turning the pumpkin into a carriage is magical, but not clever, because for all we know she could have conjured a Lamborghini. When you have clearly defined rules then you can find clever and interesting ways to work around those rules and with those rules. Like Lord of the Rings, "No man can kill me", "I am no man". We're given a clear rule, and then a work around for that rule.
Two magic systems I found interesting have got to be from Faraway Paladin and Grimoire of Zero. Faraway Paladin puts a huge emphasis on words and intention, though I forget if the part with words is a matter of “confidence affects ability” or if it’s more literal (i.e. placing a curse on yourself through self-deprecation). Grimoire of Zero’s magic is largely based on incantations, to the point where using different words can influence the power of a spell.
I think I watched this video before but didn't leave a comment so: While I agree that wonder and mystery can be great in a fantasy story as it installs a feeling of whimsy, this can also be incompatible with certain plots/settings. For example, I'm writing a fantasy story set in a fantasy world but takes place at a Harry Potter-esque magic school. People go there to learn magic so it's guaranteed that the magic system will be explained. The goal with my magic system has always been to create something balanced that doesn't allow for deus ex machinas. If the characters have to fight a troll, there is no "troll killing" spell that they blast it with so, they have to be creative with magic to solve the problem. This goal of balancing my magic is also why my magic system ends up being more explained. What magic can and can't do has to be clear enough that the audience doesn't ask "why didn't they just use magic". I also consider balancing when it comes to the worldbuilding. As mentioned in the video, teleportation would greatly change travel. But part of my story is adventure, so I need to nerf teleportation enough where it's not the go to option but not so much that it can't be used when I want to use it. This means that this part of the magic system has to be explained more. The same thing can be said for so many uses of magic as a lot of them carry certain implications. Time travel, mind control, weather control, love potions, etc. Personally, I try to avoid copying Tolkien. My elves aren't immortal for example. I take more inspiration from anime like Naruto and Black Clover but sparingly. Most of my inspiration comes from folklore and mythology- the actual historical beliefs and practices performed by different cultures. To be honest, I am more of a scientifically minded person so maybe I'm just predisposed to think that way even when writing magic. I love fantasy but I don't believe in magic, ghosts, or anything supernatural. Could this possibly hinder me? Some people might think so. I don't disagree with the points this video is making; I just don't think it's 100% compatible with my goal. I want my magic system to be reflected in the worldbuilding and in my mind that means explain what can and can't be done. This does not mean I'm going to info dump all the information. I try to avoid exposition (which is difficult due to the setting). Maybe I'm misunderstanding the point, but I think my magic system will work better with a more detailed explanation. I wouldn't consider my story High Fantasy as it's set in a more "modern" society. It's not an industrial society because of worldbuilding reasons, but they do have some technology that would be consider anachronistic for a typical fantasy world (radios, trains, etc). The point I was trying to get to is this world has scientific knowledge so magic is often approached in a similar way. If magic did exist, we'd want to learn everything we could about it to better understand it. Humans have been doing this even when it was common to believe in magic.
"Cold doesn't exist" is a myth for the same reason that subtraction and adding negative numbers are ENTIRELY equivalent. Its all an accounting system. A way to keep track of displacement from one thing to another. As far as the math is concerned you are entirely justified in moving cold into your body.
In my own story I mostly took an AtLA approach to magic and had it be an element based system, and some of the things I came up with were the police force using Light Magic to locate evidence of crimes(things like finger prints, or remnants of spells) or using earth magic to grow crops and help with construction. The whole world was built around the elements and what that magic's existence would do to a standard fantasy setting. Though there's classifications of magic, you can mix and match them, and they aren't straight up just "You can summon fire" or "Move water around" but more of a general type of thing you can do. Fire magic can do things like generate heat or cause combustion, while dark magic can twist minds or even forms to the caster's will. The elements are more like guidelines than a hard rule, but there's still a science to the magic. I think having hard set rules makes a magic system more interesting and makes the moments where someone finds something new more exciting and satisfying since it's far more unexpected and ground breaking versus a system where if you think it, it happens.(And that preference definitely shows in my own magic system)
After about ten minutes, it seemed like you had beaten your point to death... then I saw there were 20 more minutes left. And ultimately when it comes to systems, soft magic vs hard magic is only relevant so far as it serves the narrative. Both have their place. This was not a very good video, in my opinion, though I can respect the effort you put into your points. But after you had already killed the horse, you kept beating it, and that's simply not fun or interesting to watch or listen to.
In the Magic System in the story I’ve been writing, I only ever say it as a Power System instead. I only thought of how it would be beneficial in fights, but taking a step back to just think about how it would work in the world is a lot more interesting.
I really like the conclusion you ended off with at the end there. Magic and Science can perfectly coexist, just not the shallow public understanding of Science, after all real science is just utilizing theories to explain facts or observations about the world, and isn't absolute in its explanations. On the subject of magic specifically and as a kind of counter to the whole hard vs soft debate that seems to exist in the comments here, this advice 100% applies to both. You can be as detailed or vague as you want when defining your magic system for YOURSELF, but that doesn't mean that everyone in your setting needs to have an omniscient understanding of how the system works. A good exercise I think for those more into hard magic systems would be to go through the list of rules for the system and ask themselves what are some ways this rule could be misinterpreted or misunderstood within the world itself. That question alone could be a good jumping off point for adding some mystery back to the way magic functions and provide some unique scenarios depending on the answer.
Using science can destroy a magic system, but I do love shows that use science to get by, like in Doctor Stone, where there is no magic, just science, and I love shows like that
I am currently writing a story where magic exists but is not available to humans and most other living beings. While others, such as Elves and Monsters have it in the form of "essence". An intangible and invisible thing which allows you to wield magic, which in of it self is the realm of imagination. But that imagination is limited to some basic rules, which may go into depths depending on what you want to manifest. Mankind was forced to adapt in a unique way to survive and thrive in this world. The rest of the world looked down upon them because they could not wield magic (though halflings can wield it, they tend to have less "essence" though even to those who sense it the amount of "essence" is arbitrary and can't be fully explained.) The main character is a human scientist who was born in the Human Realms, an industrialized society with tech on par with the early 1900's (with some tech being more advanced and some other tech or scientific knowledge lacking compared to the real world. The environment and history is different, hence the advancement of technology is different.) Magic is seen by the new generations of humans as something that can be studied, explained and eventually used in some way despite their lack of "essence". I am still working on it and will probably change some things. The world and history is something I have to still think about, though I have a good foundation I believe. It'll be posted on Royal Road once I am satisfied with the final product, so if you're interested it'll be called "From the Ashes".
Personally, I really like "Infinite Mage" 's magic system. What creates magic is unknown and there are a lot of other mysteries but it also has a sciency side.
That last part on how rules, beyond constraining our worldbuilding, empowers it, is perfectly depicted on one of the, in my opinion, best magic systems in anime: Hunter x Hunter's Nen. It does over explain at times, and abuse exposition. But there's still lots of mystery coming from it. But the part that catches my atention the most is how it meta-uses this whole "rules as empowerment" statement. Nen is all about visualization and imagination; but the more rules and constraints you apply to your ability, the more powerful it becomes. Take for instance Kurapica's ability, the restraining chain. It can only be used against members of the Spider. Against them, it is almost unstoppable. But if used against anyone else, he dies. This shows how limits, rules and constrains are, in fact, an empowering and enables growth for our characters. The same is true for riseing actual human beings, if you think about it...
You are greatly confused. "Yapping" about the inner workings of the power system is not a problem of the power system itself but presentation. Frieren's magic system is actually generic, but the power system is not presented as the main focus but the characters. Take that in contrast to HxH. They do a lot of info dumping, but the system is so complex and rooted to the story it is needed. And even then, they do not tell you all at once, but reveal its nuances along the arcs. If anything, the real lesson is that a good story does not necessarily need a hard power system, but it benefits from it.
I dont think this comment section knows the difference between hard and soft magic systems. Who is going to tell them that Freiren and JJK are about the same level of 'hard' as far as magic systems go? (Spoilers, it might be me in a new video lmao).
I mean, it's a lot harder for me to get through gojo vs Sukuna and the encyclopedia of exposition needed for why and even how those two are so poggers that they're literally revolutionizing all the rules as they fight
So how about Nen of HXH?
@@asisifrans the big things, for me personally, that Hunter x Hunter does better than JJk:
1.) Powers are generally much more digestible, with just a few exceptions (a certain set of "emperor's eyes" can be a bit of a confounding swiss army knife--especially when it busts out the talking dolphin robot drone with a syringe...yes, really)
I genuinely believe that a lot of the narration during the Chimera Ant Arc's finale was largely unnecessary. Meanwhile, we'd have no earthly clue about Gojo vs Sukuna without pages upon pages of the bystanders being about just as baffled.
2.) Domain expansion is fun, but can add a compounding layer of convoluted mechanics via the barrier (big part of what made Gojo vs Sukuna so impenetrable)
3.) Nen has a lot of funky and interchangable names between Ren and ten and what have you, but it basically just translates to "hey, having nen is cool, but nen can be concentrated into an arm to block, into a fist or object to wreck stuff, or over your eyes to see nen gud." It's a natural extension of one's aura, sort of like how a martial artist learns to use his god given physicality in a fight (a comparison helped along by the fact that martial arts are used to help the protags learn more advanced techniques)
But I don't find JJk to be as intuitive , ESPECIALLY reversed curse technique.
Like, it seems to exist completely apart from cursed technique. Hell, Gojo learns to use it to *recover* cursed technique (and so apparently does black flash) and doesn't seem to have a limit(?) and comes from thinking happy thoughts(?)
There's no discernable movement behind it, it seems to work nigh instantly, and we don't get to see the mindset with which characters are able to achieve it in battle. Like, Sukuna and Gojo I can see being literally sustained by their own self confidence, as their strength and ego are what define them, but then what about everyone else? Could they delude themselves with confidence? Do they have some other means with which to induce regenerative euphoria? Idk, but that'd be interesting to see!
@@jaheim_the_omnipotent4875 there's a massive difference between "complex" and "unintuitive."
Hunter X Hunter can be ridiculously complex with hyper specific abilities and actual info dump chapters explaining its various nuances, but it's never just "...huh?" in the way that jjk's final arc has been imo
@@jaheim_the_omnipotent4875 "complex" and they invent new stuff and rules everytime there's a fight
I personally like it when people in the story sound, act and look like they did their homework on the magic system
I'll be honest, I thought that was kind of the entire point.
If you're working with either expert martial artists or wizards who are trying to achieve the pinnacle of magic, I feel like it should be a given that they know what they're talking about at an expert's level, that's what you're trying to do, become the most knowledgeable fighter/Mage, isn't it?
If it's a regular person who has no idea or interest about a subject, their knowledge and dialogue should filter through that setting, but otherwise, "instinct and talent" can only take you so far. If it were the opposite, the mathematicians of old would have already figured out every singular mathematical formula just like OP Mage characters discovering ancient magic early in their lives with very little knowledge about magic, or every single martial art should have already been discovered by some random backwater village peasant due to their incredible talent in fighting, instead of building up their knowledge about how to fight using weapons correctly, how to be safe as to not get killed by a single stab in the head, how to properly parry, what is the most appropriate place to position your weapons in certain situations, where to strike most efficiently, etc.
Not only does giving your character knowledge about what they are doing solidify your character's skill, but it also gives you credibility, since it seems that you, as the author, actually have some clue about whatever it is you're writing or talking about, and choosing the character that is the exception and doesn't have to learn any of these things takes away depth from the basics that make the foundation of your world.
Of course, you can still use that character archetype, but it'd be interesting to often see switches in perspectives to solidify understanding of the world between you and the reader, probably focusing on a less talented character who had to actually understand things from the bottom.
Anyways I no longer know what I'm talking about due to my ever decreasing attention span, so I'll end this comment here.
@@elongatedsedation324I'm working on a triad approach with my main characters
as in 3 stats they each distribute their points to
strength, speed and range
3 because rock paper scissors
your strength is useless if you can't close in the range
your range is useles if your target is too fast
and your speed is useless if your target is too strong
characters will have different levels of each of these and specialise in one of them
if there's a balanced character
he might have less disadvantages but that would mean he has less advantages too just like in RPGs
should be interesting going forward
As a corollary, monologuing should be reserved for egomaniacs. It shouldn't be necessary in the middle of an action sequence.
@@JeetKunDrawYT Ok but I'm curios why, doesn't the strong guy just stand against a wall.
And then kick off the wall with a lot of strength to launch him towards the ranged enemy?
Or throw a rock with all his strength to hit the ranged enemy in the head?
@@mouhou9795 ehehe, I'll figure it out when I put it in a fight😂
I mean the ranged dude can take out the thrown rock with his superior range prowess
is for using strength to gain speed, ranged dude would be screwed as far as I can tell
I have noticed that most magic systems favor intelligence to use them effectively it's probably because magic systems are systems and the more you understand a system the more effectively you can use it.
Bingo. I got used to my
High school system, and I took advantage of it for my years there.
Same, i liked early days naruto because you had an explanation how the magic system worked. This way you could try and solve riddle how to end the fight. It is grounded and makes you audience think. I think there should be a place for "strategic" magic system aswell. Not every story needs a mystery magic system
This is a tunnel-visioned way of looking at magic, as this only really involves "casting" type of magic, like mages/sorcerers/wizards/etc. You will be called out on your bullshit by your readers.
But what about clearly magically altered abilities? Enhancing strength or setting a sword in flame?
A barbarian's "rage system" doesn't require intelligence.
@@KurosakiRuka Yep, that was my favorite part of Naruto, when you had to figure out what strategies the characters were going to use from their toolkit to end the fight. It's not an easy type of story to write, but those types of stories where you have your audience figure out the finale of a conflict based on the clues you've given them are easily my favorite types of stories in all of fiction.
@@jesustyronechrist2330Not really, from what you just described it sounds like they're still using magic but in a far more limited way that reinforces their natural strengths.
Compare setting a sword on fire against hurling a ball of flame that explodes with great force. One of those, is clearly way less magically intense than the other, but due to innate skill of the user with something *other* than magic, and leaning into it with their more limited knowledge of magic, then it makes perfect sense.
While giving your magic system an air of mystety does have some narrative benefits... I dont think that's the only way to go, as there is an appeal to treating it as a science.
Namely the more well defined a magic system works, then there is more potential engagement with the viewers, as they can actually join in and theorize on its application.
Sorta how it's more engaging to watch a mystery story, when there are actual clues that the audience can use to decipher it.
Whereas if a magic system is shrouded in too much mystery with no clear rules, it can appear too much of a Deus ex Machina, which will rob the impact of scenes, as it might feel unearned without appropriate buildup.
I good science based magic system is alchemy from full metal alchemist
any magic sufficiently analyzed is indistinguishable from science
@@lenorevanalstine1219
More than indistinguishable, any knowledge that can be studied becomes a science.
100% percent agree. When he started saying the fun thing about science and history is not fixating on the interesting minutia but a good story from a teacher I couldn’t help but be a little pissed as a lover of biology and anthropology. Don’t get me wrong the mystery and debate are fascinating but the little facts and information are what is most fun for me and no doubt many others
@@lenorevanalstine1219 that sounds more like math
I loved that part at 0:00 where it says “Premieres in 6 hours”
Thanks, I worked hard on it
That was so skumblo of you😢😂💀👽@@ScritRighter
@@ScritRighter the argument about the force coming from the mitichorians is a missunderstanding. George explaind in an interview 08(?) that the Mitichorians don't generate the force but act as recivors for it. Much like satalite dishes do with radio waves. it was recently reinforced by an episode in the Ashoka show.
plus it make sense why the force is more pusedo science, Magic fallows the same princalpes of since when it come to research and discovery, and the force users from Star wars had thoousands of years to study and researched it. essentially Star wars is a magic system in its eldery phase instead of it's adolecent or mature phase that we're more commonly thrusted in.
@@elysainempire4628 Nah that's lame. Don't care, not listening LALALALALALALA
@@ScritRighter
Just as well, it was so poorly written that I got cancer from it
Fact is, Qui-Gon could have just said "the force is strong in this child" or been poetic with something like "the force ebbs and flows around this child like a great tide crashing against unseen realities".
Instead they felt the need for an absolute measurement in order to compare him against other powerful Jedi. *shrug*
I think it would be really interesting if you had have two different magic users that have different theories about how magic works and so they actually fight with the same magic system almost completely differently because of their own beliefs about the magic system too bad I don't see a lot of stories using that idea.
Yeah I think that's a great idea that not enough stories honestly do, and it would be a good way to show how magic works even if one side might misunderstand it.
I feel like a good example of what your talking about at is sports anime. Both teams are playing whatever sport but different types of ideals and beliefs shine through. Both teams in any given match mostly follow the rules of the game but they reach different conclusions.
Different magic users with radically different theories and methods for using magic, but technically still using the same magic system, is something you see a lot in RPGs, especially TTRPGs. Not just D&D, but games like Shadowrun go into a great deal of detail about the differences between Hermeticism, Shamanism, and the countless other magical traditions, and how they all still share the same manasphere. Mage: The Ascension goes the most extreme route where literally every single mage uses an entirely unique magical paradigm/philosophy that limits what that particular mage can and can't do with magic, but it's all the same magic system at its root.
I keep doing this. I love to combine power systems to see how it would work.
@@rossjones8656 Im an aspiring writer, and i do the same thing.
I don't think stories like Frieren, Harry Potter, A Song of Ice and Fire or Lord of the Rings have Magic "Systems".
They 100% DO have magic. That's pretty obvious. But they don't have "systems" for that magic. They magic just is. There are no rules to extrapolate upon beyond "this happened so it's possible, this didn't happen so it's not possible". A magic SYSTEM requires a system from which you can extrapolate and infer information from the established rules. How much you can work with it determines if it's soft or hard system, but they are still systems.
Exactly, meanwhile a story like Hunter x Hunter and Jujutsu Kaisen DO have magic systems because they have rules and are coded, but with that very code it can be play around with and even be outsmarted (like how Yuji learned RCT by swapping bodies).
Soft vs hard magic systems...Kinda silly to say harry potter doesnt have a magic system when the series goes out of its way to explain why harry can use a Patronus etc.
You're just being literal with the word "system" here.
Soft magic system, even if vague, have a system. The author may purposefully hide the system from the viewer if he feels like it. Usually they do that because a hard magic system won't enhance the story they're trying to tell and would be much better if a soft one was used.
You shouldn't conflate your personal preferences as the paragon. A lot of stories manage to have very complex magic systems while still retaining, and often even enhancing its intrigue (e.g. Hunter x Hunter, Witch Hat Atelier, etc.)
Hunter x hunter fan here. You are right!
idk, man. There are hard and soft magic systems for a reason, and both ends of the spectrum have their own advantages and disadvantages.
I prefer to write harder magic systems because it gives the main characters tools to confront obstacles and clear objectives to strive for (get better at it so they have more tools at their disposal), but I don't think of soft magic systems as lesser because of my preferences
Hard systems don't mean you explain every detail of them to the audience at the beginning of the story. That's just bad writing on practically every level. Hard systems mean the system is complete and internally consistent, so that if something unexpected happens the audience's reaction isn't "that's bullshit, and contradicts what has already happened," it's either "oh, so THAT'S possible and gives me new context" or "I had it all wrong the entire time."
A soft system is a system the author himself has not bothered to consider and flesh out, and opts to leave any variable as an unknown quantity, show really crazy stuff early to set the bar high and make it flexible, and then demonstrate that system only infrequently thereafter to reduce the chance of self-contradiction further, so that it is almost impossible to evoke a "that's bullshit" reaction (and of course, these storytelling techniques can be used with hard systems- Focusing on magic, we don't quite know enough to deduce for certain if LotR actually had a hard magic system, and sort of like how a lot of people think it's high fantasy but it's actually just set in prehistoric Europe, it is probable, given Tolkien's inclinations, that while a lot of people think its magic system is soft, it is actually a hard system seen through the eyes of some rather non-magical hobbits, and the fact that Gandalf makes a show of using magic a few times early on and later on magical beings show seemingly unrelated abilities with the through line being that they evoke some kind of action at a distance and have no readily-available "natural" explanation all makes it feel like we're dealing with a soft, nebulous idea of "magic" that is full of wonder but impossible to probe for consistency; And indeed, we see some of the structures of the hard system that likely underlies the setting, in the wraith-world Frodo enters while wearing the ring, and the strong connection between the pure primordial lights (of which ordinary light is a very impure form, merely capable of illumination) and magical power (eg the Silmarils and the elves having power because of their connection to that very light)).
Personally, I suspect very few soft systems actually exist in respected narrative speculative fiction, and where they do exist they tend to be almost superfluous to the stories told therein (relevant to Brandon Sanderson's "First Law of Magic," which is that an author's ability to solve a problem [effectively, without ruining the audience's immersion] with magic is directly proportional to how well the audience understands the magic; If the reader doesn't really get the rules of the magic, and either a new magical event fails to coherently provide context that deepens their understanding or the magic in fact has no set-in-stone rules, solving the problem of it taking five days to go around a giant lake but the hero wants to get there in one by saying a wizard parted the waters so they could walk through in one is not that big a deal and may add an element of whimsy, majesty or respect for the wizard, but solving the problem of the hero's dead loved one by saying the wizard snapped his fingers and brought them back to life not only feels like a lazy cop-out, it completely trivializes the very major and important emotional and physical factor of _death_ in a story). What people perceive as soft systems are usually those they, as audience members who are not incisive enough to spot the underlying patterns, see as haphazard because they are not meticulously spelled out (the beautiful elegance of this being that that type of person tends to have a much higher threshold for suspending their disbelief when you tell them "the wizard said hocus pocus and everything just worked out" anyway). There's a reason Sanderson is so emphatic that fantasy authors should use hard systems for magic: It is not that he's an idiot who doesn't realise that some of the best and most successful fantasy settings of all time have epic soft magic systems bro, it's that he's smart enough to realise _they actually don't._
On that note, going back to my main point: You're confusing a system having coherent, consistent rules (being a hard system) with a system being completely exposed to the reader with all its ins and outs (having an exposition dump). Nevermind that exposition dumps rarely make much sense in-setting (unless they're _explicitly wrong;_ I challenge you to produce a single scientific theory or system in real life, our understanding of which has not been upturned or heavily amended within the last two hundred years- Some which seemed neatly wrapped up and fully understood at some point in the last century, like atom theory, have undergone serious revision in just the last decade).
Yeah, I agree with you. I think the author of this video makes a lot of good points, but is unnecessarily reductive about Magic Systems as a whole.
I’m writing a hard magic system where the main character’s super-isolated, super-militaristic village doesn’t know any of the rules to this system. This is mostly due to the fact that they don’t care about science or research.
It won’t be until the second book where she meets someone from outside her village (peer, not a mentor) that actually explains to her, and the reader, how this actually works.
And as a bonus, because nobody knew how her magic specifically worked, she was never able to foster it properly, and thus she was pretty heavily nerfed. Upon meeting someone to properly explain, she learned not only what her magic was, not only the source of it, but how to actually use it properly (using metal bracelets as conduits rather than a wooden staff, specifically).
Hopefully this serves to not overwhelm the reader and let them get familiar with the system and hopefully start to make connections and theories on their own, but it also gives her a quick little boost of power, just from simply figuring out to use metal rather than wood.
And before everyone cries “Marry-Sue”, the main focus of the first book is her learning how to work hard (she starts off terribly lazy) only to come up short time and time again when compared to her peers. She learns that for whatever reason, she has to try at least twice as hard to equal everyone else, so she does. Only after she has more than proven herself by winning a battle tournament and helping to bring down one of the strongest antagonists in the first book, does she get to have the shackles removed, so to speak.
You could have categorised magic system in two parts and name it Hard magic system and soft magic system,
But you choose to call one better than others based on your personal liking
exactly my problem with the video
And that’s not a bad thing.
You don’t have to agree with his judgement.
But he has the right to make it.
@@DrakusLuthos Maybe he has the right to make it, but its worse when he states it as a fact and applies it to everyone ignoring preference(essentially calling those who don't like what he likes stupid and wrong), and then absolutely can't handle criticism of his ideas maturely in his own comments section.
@@zacharyfewins8087
True.
@@zacharyfewins8087could not have summed up this entire video any better
Yeah, I disagree. I like soft magic systems, but strict magic systems can be just as cool. I recommend Brandon Sanderson's books; they tend to have hard magic systems and are awesome. I also disagree with you on what makes science fun. Testing ideas hands-on is cool and I like it a lot, but more than that, understanding concepts and relating them to each other to reveal insights into how stuff works, that's the thing that made me like science and it's why I have enteres an engineering course, which I'm completing in a couple months. Storytelling is awesome, but inctricate knowledge and detail is also awsome; they can be engrossing in different ways and in different scenarios and to different people in different moods.
Intricate detail works in a story about engineering solutions to problems, where the focus of the story is on the process of problem-solving. Otherwise it is unnecessary and wastes the reader's time and energy. Nothing bogs down an action sequence like explaining how powers work.
I agree, both systems are amazing but all that matters is how information is delivered to the audience.
@@HenriFaust You don't need to do it in the middle of a fight, and you don't need to do it all at once. Pieces of it can be sprinkled throughout the story so that by the time a major fight happens the reader understands the magic
If you can explain its rules in scientific method, and it functions as an alternative to what we consider to be rational physics, always working the same way in response to the same inputs, then it is magic in name only. It isn’t really magic. Magic means you DON’T understand it, and can’t. Only those who are innately magical, and themselves thereby incomprehensible, can truly understand magic.
@@Redbeardblondie Yeah, but magic is what we call those alternatives to science, because they are super natural forces or mechanisms that don't exist in the real world. Do you have another word for it? Also, I don't agree with your definition of magic as the unkowable, but, really, we're just picking over a word's definition. Its use is what matters, and even that is really sidetracking of the topic we were on.
i beg to disagree on the ´one shall not explain magic like science, it must be magic´ becouse you can but it will make things harder, the thing about science is that the deeper you go the more you realice we kinda dont know why the principles are there, like gravity we dont know why it is there how it works and so on, you can explain magic and make a fairly hard sistem and just stop at any point and say we just dont know more. But a sistem like that has to be complex enough to allow nuance, in the same way a colection of gears and simple parts can make something as complex and beautiful as a car or a fine tuned musical instrument, i think the jjk is a good one, the inhereted stuff is unpredictable but it tends to personified the character, most importantlly jjk has a super strong base for everything. I find everyrhing in beetwin its gonna fall a bit flat, i personally i dislike HP magic couse it dosent fell like a sistem, just a colection of flashy tricks, like how did the first wisard came acros it? i could continue on hp but i dislike everything about it lol.
srry 4 bad english tho, i loved the video tho im just a bit of a nerd
Always remember though, when you know and understand the rules, you can break the rules.
Came here for the thumbnail and read the description, as much as i like frieren i have to disagree with that opinion, cause frieren info dumps too, i remember a couple in the recent Magical test arcs.
you need to consider that the two shows use their power systems to highlight different things.
JJK's power system exists to facilitate Combat, and the info we are given make the combat more engaging, assuming the info is just useful for power scaling is just odd. some of us don't care about that shit.
Full Metal Alchemists power system does the same for its Theme of the Value of life, through the rules of its power system "The law of Equivalent Exchange".
Frieren's Power system is used in a lot of cases to show how the Mages have evolved over the course of history, that's why we got an episode about the demon who invented "Zoltraak"( Attack Magic ) and how the mages learnt it and overcame it.
thats why we got information about mages switching to manipulating elements instead of using Stronger but more complex defensive magic.
remember when Edel the 2nd class hypnosis specialist, spent time explaining the Magic system as she strategized on how to fight sense's Clone, or when we cut away from Ubel vs Sense's clone to explain how her magic works and how she had an advantage over Sense's Magic, these are also info Dumping.
if your idea was applied to a show like Death Note, you would say that the Death Note is a poorly written power system, because a lot of time is taken to explain the rules of the Death Note, but this information is important so that strategies used by the characters later make sense.
Info Dumping is a necessary evil, finding interesting ways to explain the abilities is a problem all writers have to solve.
as far as i'm JJK does it well enough, and Still delivers more interesting combat with its power system.
Thanks for reading, now I'll watch the video.
I'd love to hear what you think.
So Science and Mathematics are the soft magic systems of the real world. Wow. Banger revelation, Scrit
you mean hard?
@@colorpg152 :)
Hello, Scrit! I was very enraptured by your humor and your video's content. As a fan of HARD magic systems, your support for softer magic systems left a solid impression on me. I agree that a great magic system inspires mystery. However, I had issues with the strange dismissal of counterclaims which are evident in a softer system.
18:42 Personally, that was my main argument against Freiren's magic system being compelling. When a power system can do *everything* it stops having an actual point to say about anything. If I can make a magical pulley system AND fireballs AND teleportation spells, there isn't actually skill in the craft. It's just a mage being superior because they had access to superior education. The issue of sudden realization is more present in Freiren, since a spell only needs to be logically consistent to function, with a nebulous mana cost.
[Human Supremacy, however, is something that I loved about it. We are, indeed, the best race, as the Elves and Demons and God-knows-who-else will break before our ingenuity.]
Jujutsu Kaisen's diamond-hard magic system actually subverts the search for mystery by giving the joy of discovery. The laborious explanations of Cursed Techniques causes the audience to have a preconceived idea of the limits to the power. Todo Aoi's Boogie-Woogie allows him to swap places between himself and an object. However, it isn't until he starts to *cheat* the power, that you realize the REAL rules were in front of you the entire time. He can swap any two objects with Cursed Energy, allowing him an infinite permutation of attack patterns. The audience is given a sense of wonder, which is even stronger than mystery. This makes every CT Battle likened to a fencing match, rather than a game of chess. Each fighter's style compels the characters to demand their own questions of the magic system, but both are forced to use blades to score points against each other.
[My MAIN issue with Jujutsu Kaisen is some of the rules which are set up logically conflict. The Barriers lead into both Domain Expansions and Incantations. However, Incantations are expressions of Showing One's Hand. An optimal fight would be to do ALL of them at once, and several fights in the series could have been won if the compounding effects of these abilities are used to the fullest. That's even 90% of the reason why a CERTAIN SORCERER was the strongest of his generation. However, SURELY at least one other person would emulate that?]
My favorite magic system of all time is a tie between HunterxHunter, Shaman King, and Allomancy. All of them are so screwed shut that you'd EXPECT nothing to break them, yet there is always room for natural subversion. That wonder abounds.
I'm not really advocating too much for soft magic systems as I am advocating for not overexplaining the rules of your magic system.
I dunno if you've read the JJK manga or not, but if you haven't then... oh boy.
Either way, I don't see the conflict with what you say and what I've said. I think whether or not you have a hard or soft magic system in your story, what's important are two things:
- Have a set of rules to follow as a writer behind the scenes even if those rules are conveyed
- the rules you convey to the audience should give them room to speculate on what magic can DO not what the rules of magic are.
I suppose a third important thing is finding a way to convey the rules of your magic system in a way which makes sense, and doesn't yank the reader aside for a lecture on the new rules of the system.
JJK does this A LOT in later archs following Shibuya to the point that it is a genuine mind numbing slog of a read, and why I no longer consider its magic system to be good. Magic systems are made or ruined on how well they are conveyed.
Stands I’m JoJo are awesome since with enough strategy you can be unstoppable with almost every ability
With JJK you just got to understand what they are cause if you dont you would be left behind.
Midi-chlorians and the Force are not the same thing. Midi-chlorians is simply a way of the Force weaving it’s way through other people, through a microscopic organism. They also determine one’s connection to the Force, depending on how high or low it is.
I think the prequels explained it poorly. It took me reading the book of the sith to finally grasp it.
So if I am to understand correctly midi-chlorians ( which I've always assumed was analogous to mitochondria in many ways) are a micro-organism that is naturally force sensitive and having more of them within one allows people to by extension utilize the midi-chlorians force sensitivity to ones own benefit but they aren't the only organism that are force sensitive? As in a person with low midi-chlorians can learn to become very strong regardless? I'm not certain how it is supposed to work
@@daviddiggens8841 the best real life comparison is with neuro-receptors and magnetism.
Magnetism is a thing on its own. The global magnetic field is all around us, yet we can not feel it.
Now we have birds, the flying feathered thingies... The reason why the move to warmer regions when seasons change and how they navigate is the following:
In their brains are little receptors that allow them to sense magetism and let it guide them.
Midichlorians can be compared to such developed receptors. Each one has receptors in their brains but only the specific configuration of the bird ones, compare that to the density levels of midichlorians, allows them to become aware of the magnetism around them.
Midi-chlorians are hearsay. If they were real there would be much more interaction with them.
I've never understood all the hate Midi-chlorians get. Saying "the Force is strong with this one" and "you have a high Midi-chlorian count" are effectively the same, from a storytelling standpoint. I _guess_ there is a slight difference if it's a thing you can measure, but several animes have some sort of mana measuring doohickey (one only has 2 digits, so the Gary Stu is abandoned as a child for scoring 02, when he's actually 1,002; that was a neat idea). But people blame Midi-chlorians for the Force being genetic, and now it's not that "everyone" can use the Force, it's something-something eugenics-- only it was _always_ genetic, _always. "Dark Father" was always supposed to be Luke's father, and if you believe it was a retcon, you're a moron. Leia, however, was retconned, and that's why she didn't get any force-shadowing... tee-hee.
Trying to pretend that science and magic are separate is a fundamental misunderstanding of both. Magic is just additional physical laws of that world like gravity, light, mass, energy, and etc. Science is not something that physically exist, as people often confuse technology with science. Science is a process and way of viewing the world which is why the full name is "The scientific method" because it's a method of learning not some monolithic thing.
When mages/wizards and such research how mana works, is managed, manipulated to form different spells, make magical devices, and etc. they are potentially engaging in the scientific method. It's very simple you state how you think something works, you make a test that will show your assumption is either right or wrong, this is the most important part as the test has to be able to show true or false. With the results then helping to expanding your knowledge of how the world works. How this applies to magic system which are just additional physical laws is that the reader doesn't need to completely understand the rules and neither do the people in the world as finding out correct information means you have to ask the right questions as if the question is wrong for your test the results could mislead you as something happening.
Take Avatar for example when Toph realizes that Metal is just another type of earth and learns to bend it as well because her perspective on it changed. Since we know even more about the world than they do we know there shouldn't really be any separation of the elements as it's all just different states of matter. People often view depictions of earlier societies with amusement when they hear some of their beliefs like everything being made of the 4 Elements, but really without any knowledge of atoms how would one explain the 4 states of Matter? Fire = Plasma / Air = Gas / Water = Liquid / Earth = Solid. The since some materials changed states easier than others they similar assumed the mix of the elements was different in those materials. It wasn't too unreasonable of an assumption given how little they knew at the time of the rest of physics. And it's possible a magic system is the same way that they barely scratch the surface thus making misconceptions on how things work.
Also like stated in the video cold doesn't exist but is simply a lack of heat, yet we see things like cold guns or cold spells which in order to achieve means using something that lacks a lot of heat itself just as pouring liquid nitrogen on something to freeze it. All that heat leaves the item and goes into the liquid nitrogen. Similar to cold, darkness doesn't really exist but is simply the absence of light. Thus anything that would create the perception of darkness spreading would most likely simply be a cloud of some opaque substance or material that doesn't reflect the light, such as vantablack. But to the uneducated that don't know the properties of light would assume it is "creating darkness".
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C Clark
Magic is just physical laws we don't understand yet and can be just as confusing as some of the ones we do sort of understand. Such as light being both a wave and particle, quantum mechanics of a something being in multiple states at once like up and down, left and right, and etc. And just like in the real world as much as we have learned there is still more we don't know. This would be true of any Magic system which is why trying to over explain it would not only ruin the mystery but also not be very realistic as we don't even fully understand all the rules of our own universe despite how advanced we think we are. But that also means that in the world of magic there would be people devoted to studying it and uncovering more of those rules, which begs the question of how far they might go, as we have some horrific stories in our own world of people doing experiments on other people to find out the limits of human tolerance.
By keeping things vague for the reader and thus the world it can cause tension for those in the world trying to unlock those secrets even if the author knows the answers already on how something could be achieved. You can even use an unreliable narrator that seems reliable to mislead the reader as everyone thinks something is not possible to create a really dramatic moment and world shattering change in perspective, like with Toph figures out how to Metal Bend which has been shown over and over to be something Earth benders can't do because of the assumption metal is not per of earth.
Well Toph could only bend metal because of the "earth fragments" on the inside, it is impossible to bend pure metal in this universe. No rules have changed
The basic problem is that some folks think the cool thing is the system, when that's only ever as good as the characters and stories it facilitates. If we don't care about the characters and what they're using the magic to do, it doesn't matter in the slightest what your magic system is. You /can/ explain your system in great detail /if/ you can make it interesting and relevant, in much the way I had one highschool math teacher who knew how to teach math, and a bunch who just recited facts at us.
A detailed magic system allows folks to be clever in application of the rules, to find exploits, to make fridge-logic realizations that things that seemed to work one way could work another. It allows you to set up the rules and use the rules creatively. It's like a well written mystery, where the author provides all the information needed to get to the right answer, but doesn't just hand you everything on a silver plate - you need to figure out some of the red herrings and fight some assumptions along the way to sort out the truth before the detective reveals it. But if we don't like the characters or story, we're not going to care about the clues or the reveal.
Ubel's magic is a great example, fairly decent chunk of time/pages gets devoted to explaining it, but it's not just important to understanding the scope and capability of that spell or what it's user can do, but also her general mindset and her approach to magic, and by comparison how some of the most skilled mages of the day see her. "I can cut whatever I think I can cut, and cannot cut whatever I don't think I can cut". It's interesting because it's doing more than /just/ telling us what she can do in a fight. It's exploring one of the key rules of magic in this world, "you can't do anything you can't truly visualize", and shows what that means, and how individual character and worldview shapes the magic you can do. It is integral to who she is, and the whole thing informs a lot of what we see with other magic users, where their own magical powers and related strengths and weaknesses at magically are a direct reflection of who they are as people.
It also relates to why Frieren loves the silly spells, and why she could beat the demon lord when Serie, a vastly more skilled and powerful mage, would have no chance.
If you just hand us a chunk of rule system you've so exhaustively developed in only the least clever and interesting way possible, you've wasted our time, if the rules aren't being used in an interesting way, all you're really doing is giving use a lot of time/pages to say "different people can do different things". There's plenty of hard magic and hard SF series that have "here's my thing, isn't it cool?" with their magic system or the tech they're exploring and drop the ball on doing more than the absolute minimum, most obvious and thus least interesting thing with it. Like mitochlorians.
good god 7 minutes in and it just feels like yapping the whole time. good lord.
how so
@@yulee3266 He said nothing of substance. It was just life anecdotes and analogies.
@@yulee3266because bro is absolutely yapping.
@@lemonov3031yeah I got bored because he wasn’t making any arguments but rather monologuing.
And Billy Nye the Science Fraud isn't helping.
Personally I don't agree that Frieren has such a good power system, especially if you compare it to the best easy to understand systems in anime/manga (Stands and Alchemy), Frieren has a problem and that is that it is too vague the rule is ''Yes the magician can imagine it so he can do it'' and that makes that the viewer doesn't feel the need to speculate what a magician can do and what not.
That JJK's power system explains too much seems to me to be part of its charm, it reminds me of one of my favorite power systems, Nen, and most of the time these explanations can be skipped and you will understand the power well anyway. I think that these explanations at the end serve as an extra for those who want to know how this system works in great detail.
Going back to Frieren I think that it is a system that is too vague to stand out and it ends up seeming like it just happens because ''he could imagine it'', I think that a good soft system is something like alchemy, one doesn't think that something came from nowhere because the two most important rules are easy to understand and allow variations, or the stands that are easy to understand but their charm is how they use their simple skills and make them more complex which causes the battle be extremely fun and surprising and I don't think Frieren achieves what these two systems do.
Although I think Frieren is an incredible anime, I simply don't think its system is something it even stands out for.
Alchemy from FMA is 100% a hard magic system. And calling Stands easy to understand is crazy when they change every so often based on the universe they're in at the time lmao.
I think Freiren has a great magic system because it isn't concerned with trying to stand out. It focuses on telling a true fantasy story, and captures the essence and wonder of magic. They don't need to give an analytical synopsis of the power system.
Frieren is great because it also invests time into describing how the magic system has an effect on the world and the people living in it. There is a difference between something which stands out and something which is well written. Freiren's magic system is well written, but it is also very close to most high fantasy magic systems we already know.
@@ScritRighterstands are in fact easy to understand. A stand is your soul, stands can touch you, but you can't touch stands. Stands have different powers based on different users(that's the complicated part, i agree, but the stand powers and the stand system itself are seperate things) amd if the stand takes damage you take damage aswell.
@@ДюсековИльяс The powers within the magic system are still apart of the magic system. And how well it is conveyed depends on the magic system. Avatar is a good example of this. Bending styles are tied to martial technique, and we all understand they can only bend one element unless they are the Avatar.
The more advanced techniques, such as Lightning, Metal Bending, and Blood Bending are also easy to understand and make perfect sense in the rules described.
@ScritRighter Stands are the manifestation of the user's will. Why does Gold Experience create life that hurts you if you hurt it? Because, deep down, Giorno is a kind person who rewards kindness with kindness and punishes cruelty with cruelty.
Stand abilities don't really change their rules, they just develop exceptions. A stand ability is generally stronger the closer the stand is to the user. Unless it's a remote stand, then they're usually weak with esoteric abilities. Unless a condition is met that allows a stand to roam further while maintaining its power.
Stand abilities are unique and have only one thing to do with the rules. That's that they're generally based on the will of the user. The individual abilities don't make the system complicated.
Your bias towards stands is showing. Can't blame you tho
Why are you trying to separate science from magic? Science is just our best method of understanding reality. Magic isn't real in our world so of course we can't study it with science, but in a world where the rules are different then what is magic to us could be considered a fact of reality, and as such studied by science just like any other.
It's not necessary of course, you can also write stories about worlds in which magic eludes any and all rational scrutiny and behaves in ways that people are unable to grasp any rhyme or reason for and it would be perfectly fine too. Especially when the characters are subject to magic rather than performing it, like say, in alice in wonderlands you don't need to understand the rules of how wonderland works because alice herself has no fuckin clue.
But ultimately this video is you passing your preference as if it was some objective truth and making it into a terrible writing advice.
The worst thing is you're using a terrible exemple for it, personally I love all the details given about the magic in frieren and how they show that it is indeed studied like a science. While we don't get down to excruciating details that's because the magic system is really secondary in that story, it's not a story about mages doing magic, it's a story about grief and appreciating life to the fullest. You can prefer that but that's not mean it's inherently better than stories that revel into the nitty gritty of the alternate rules of their universe.
Personally I adore complex magic systems that behave like a puzzle for the read especially when used creatively. Sometimes it even behave like, theoretical physics for an alternate universe. Like, you setup rules, put two characters with each other and try to derive what would be the result based on those rules. It's just fun and intellectually engaging, not emotionally engaging yes, but it's the same sort of appeal as a mystery novel where the writer tries to give you the information you need to piece the puzzle yourself.
Personally I like both primarily intellectually and primarily emotionally engaging stories (although ideally you want both =p) and I just feel like you're missing out on something cause you don't get it and just decided it was objectively bad. Different kind of stories are allowed to exist and not every story has to be for you. You can criticize a story for failing what it sets out to achieve, but you can't say something is bad writing because it tries to do something you don't see value in. This is "there shouldn't be any gay romance in my stories because I'm straight" level of media analysis.
Thanks so much for this. I am working on a video covering why power systems are so cool and this really helped me with fleshing out ideas. I'll definitely be sure to credit you when I'm able to make it.
Stands are still, by faaaar, my favorite power system to date.
I personally adore how deceptively soft the "rules of stands" are, with how easy it is to exaggerate actual science facts or other phenomenon and fuckin' Frankensteins them into _absurd_ yet dangerous super-powers. (Also I can make my favorite songs into cool abilities so it's a 11/10 already for that alone)
There isn‘t even a proper power system in Frieren, and I‘m up to date to the manga
I love when magic system works like it's science of their world, not that it's explained by OUR science, but that it's something they can research, improve, train, it has hard laws that cannot be broken, but can be abused.
Warning: This is a long one.
Also, excuse my gramar and writing. I'm not a native speaker and I write this in a hurry.
(Also, i write this half way through the video. If these points are explained, I MIGHT go back and edit this comment)
Well, it depends.
As a reader, knowing the fundamentals of how a magic system works isn't really bad. But hiding/adding additional systems/rules that expand it and the readers understanding of how those rules can be used is, in my opinion, the better approach than just keeping the inner workings vague (i think that was what you are saying). It allows new revelations to be understood by readers without looking like some random "a wizard did it" event. The problem with mediclorians was not that it explained the force. It only made ones connection to it meassureable and explained why some people were force sensitive and others weren't. The problem was that it didn't add anything. Outside the novels, mediclorian transplantaion or the removal of them to take away the force, like aang did to the firelord, was never shown. It was a "on cute" addition whose consequences were never explored.
The force itself was still just as mysterious as before. Just explained why people could use it.
Another good example for me for magic as LITERAL science is Full Metal Alchemist:
The rules are:
You can't create nothing without giving something, an alchemist needs access to either tectonic energy or must understand the flow of mnatural energy between objects to use it, and you need to know the inner workings of the effect you want to invoke and then transfer it into an transmutaion circle. Why a ring? Cause it represents the circle of life.
So when father just casually disrupts the transfer of tectonic energy, and only xing people still hav epowers, we can extrapolate, even if we were had been never told. It makes the Phylosopher stone way more broken, by breaking the rules without breaking them.
But those are all additions that were given after the reader knew the basics.
So , yes, I think treating magic like science is really good. Give people the basics and every new thing that either uses the system to do something new and crazy, or beliveably brakes the rules is even more hype. Yes, It might take away the mystery of "how did you do this?" but it adds a completely new dimension to the story. Reader participation and rewarding them for paying attention. Even maybe seeing new powers and twists coming and being hyped for it. Because you can only have the "uuh magic" feeling only so often before it all starts blending together.
But noone will mistake JJKs system with alchemy or with bending. And noone will mistake it with Mistborns strange metal based magic.
Yet the I can't tell you a single thing about tokliens magic or tell the difference to harry potter outside you need wands and words and for one, magic sometimes happens. And that is ok. But if I want that feeling, I go to tolkin, or maybe wheel of time. I want that feeling, but flashy? Potter, Or maybe the Secret History Books.
But that's just it.
I think it becomes way more magical if people know what the rules are. Because just like with writing, if you know the rules, thinking about it once the story is over will people still exited, and not wondering why gandal didn't just plow the way, aside from "the plot must happen".
It also helps with character progression, seeing how they figure out new things with just the basic knowledge.
And you can still have the mysterious feeling. Maybe you can enchant things with your science by binding a will to it. and the stronger the will, the stronger the spell. But you can only make it do stuff that are possible. So no Object unbraking itself, but opening a door on its own when a certain word is spoken.
So, yeah, having a core set of unchangable rules that can not be broken or interpreted in a different way to change the entire basis is in my opinion the better approach. Having hidden additions that recontextualize them, but keeping the core rules intact. Like, noone will ever dispute that 1+1=2. That is a core rule to me. unshakeable. Unless the other person if on drugs, but that'S your problem then, not mine. They are in a different dimension at that moment.
It is a good video, but I think your logic is a bit flawed on this one. I agree with some of it, especially about not explaining every little detail ( i like to just imply it), but the core argument as I understand it isn't entirely right to me.
That is of course all based on the fact that I understood the central argument correctly. If not, Well, i stand by my core arguments, but they are not in oppositon then.
But if you make a "magic is science" setting, plase make sure you don't just go: "yeah, everything you knew before was kinda wrong". Thanks Korra season 2. I still hate you for that. Fucking kite.
Oh, thanks, mate, I'm writing a story with a magic system and I keep doubting my ability to make it believable and competent. This video was helpful.
My tips would be if you go into a hard magic system: Don't go into conceptual elemental ability.
Keep stuff like space, time, soul magic as the top tier of your verse and then don't power creep above it. Keep it's potential limited.
If it's simpler elements, then you can think of ways to utilise them and combine them.
And if you go into high fantasy with long lived species, gods and shit, make it so that power increase changes you.
Please, don't make character shout the spell name.
Basically, Avatar the last airbender on steroïds.
@@poutineausyropderable7108 Thank you for the tips 🙏🏻
@@poutineausyropderable7108
Nah, vocal magic spells should be fair game.
That said, it is a good idea to place some limits on what the magic can do, else not only can it get very crazy too fast, but you are more likely to use the magic in a lazy way if everyone can get exactly what they want with it.
Restrictions encourages creative use.
@zettovii1367 vocal magic exists purely for the reader, so we might know what's being cast.
Or based of old wives tell of witches speaking nonsense.
The thing is: Why would something ethereal as magic need your vocal cord to activate, rather than your mind or soul.
It can work, but it's often cringe or just feel straight up artificial.
For novel, just use single quote for when character think, and double for when they speak. Or [] when an ability activate, but the word isn't necessarily thought.
So [fireball] > 'fireball' >>> "fireball".
Also, for the love of god, keep basic physics in. Like, You can't have a little girl weighing 50 pounds swing a 100 pound sword, go fight against a giant dragon and make the dragon fly away with that attack.
The little girl will be accelerated backward twice as fast as the sword will be accelerated forward, and if she pushes the dragon, she'll be sent into orbit.
Learn the difference between mass and weight. Weight = mass * gravity strength.
Mass is how are hard you are to accelerate.
That breaks conservation of momentum in so many way.
When you swing a sword, the sword swing you (3rd law).
And shear mass should stay important. It doesn't always decide the outcome of a clash, but a 10x mass difference should require 10x more magic to overcome. (Or something like that).
Magic should be a buff, like a multiplier, so stuff like base mass and base strength should always apply.
You'd need magic buff to be an ethereal 4th dimension construct attached to your body fot it to be additive. The explanation behind it is really weird.
A simple magic system is like a physics, except it adds extra terms, like source terms. Ie, when magic creates a fireball, you can think of it as if there was just some propane in.
Or just change initial condition: Ie, a train moving at 100mph due to natural cause should hit as hard as a train moving at 100mph due to magic.
What you have freedom on is the physical shape that it takes, like you don't need a reason to explain why it's possible to compress winds into wind blade.
And you don't need to follow the available amount from physics. Ie, there exist a limited amount of material out there, and so, there's a strongest material. There's also finite difference between material, so some values are impossible to achieve.
Basically, a magic fireball has no power limit, but a chemical fireball has one.
Any science nerd, even kids that just watched lots of youtube video probably know a bunch of simple life facts.
(Like absolute cold is -273.15 C and you can't go colder then that, so if you want cold magic, it will need "Cold" to be a thing that exist, not just a lack of heat. or else, it will be very weak. As absolute 0 still takes days to visually freeze you. So, no turning people into ice cube. )
@@poutineausyropderable7108
"Why would something as ethereal as magic need your vocal cord to activate, rather than your mind or soul"
Maybe within the setting the voices is treated as a holy thing itself? Much how songs sometimes is treated as an expression of the soul, language itself can be treated as the medium to communicate with spirits, and through them grant world altering comands.
Just cause something is ethereal, it doesn't mean it gotta be psychic in nature. So you can literally think up anything as the means of activating it. Wether it be via vocal spells, body gestures, writings, or what have you.
The only magical laws that applies to your fantasy realm, are the ones you have decided for it yourself. And heck, if you think an idea is cool, then no reason to not go with it, no matter how implausible it is in real life, fiction have the freedom to work with other standards.
This also applies to other things like having tiny chars wield equipment much bigger than themselves.
Even when consistency is very important for story telling, the consistency you follow doesnt have to be one based on other existing work. You can just go with whatever suits the story you want to tell. Wether it be Looney Toon physics or something more grounded, anything is fair game if it fits the story.
So I reas your description, read a few comments and watched the whole video and I don’t see how you got this conclusion about Jujutsu Kaisen. It essentially accomplished MOST of the things you ask for but it also has different goals altogether. Furthermore I would hesitate to even call it a “magic” system. At least not in the way that you employ it. I feel like you’re addressing the magic system as a mysterious feature of the world which is fine, but Jujutsu Kaisen is beyond that. In the animanga community, these are called “power systems.” They do have effects on the world and they do tell stories without the need for explanation, and they do push the readers to ask questions. I’ll give examples but they also need to be explained for the sake of one of the main draws of the narrative which is the battles. The rules of Nen or Jujutsu make these battles interesting and compelling to the reader. We may not get a story beforehand explaining how they work without it being told to us, but we’re still given stories about the magic and how it effects the characters and the world beforehand. My best example which covers most of this is Gojo. SPOILERS! If you haven’t read up to current stop. Gojo’s “magic” effected the world around him since birth and caused jujutsu society to as a whole become weaker because they relied on him, caused curses to get stronger, limited the power of the higher ups in that society, and caused more nefarious sorcerers to go into hiding, just because he existed and had the six eyes and limitless. His power alone also motivated a foreign invasion into Japan to kidnap sorcerers for their energy potential. His power also led him to feel extreme isolation from others and he was unable to understand other humans. He was essentially a god. Which is why the question of “are you Gojo because you’re the strongest… “ you know the rest. Works so well. And that arc concludes when he dies and meets someone who can actually meet him on his level and has the capacity to understand him. Everything I just explained is world building based in magic, character based story telling based in magic. The infinity LITERALLY AND FIGURATIVELY makes him unable to connect with others. This character work through power systems is found with other characters. See the family issues of Choso and the Kamo’s and their ability being blood based, see the Fever and Hakari the restless gambler. See Maki. And explaining the power system is essential in battles and leads to more questions. Gojo vs Sukuna is compelling because it stretches what we know revealing that there even is opportunity among what’s explained for mystery. We know the six eyes makes CE consumption as efficient as possible but what if you’re doing rule breaking tech over and over over and healing death injuries over and over and over, and domain expanding over and over and over? While Sukuna did rely on Mahoraga to win it’s a commonly held belief that he could’ve won without just in a battle of attrition. Gojo was repeatedly doing insane things in battle that literally did cripple him in battle. He would’ve lost earlier had he not gotten a few seconds of domain on Sukuna. Explanations in the context of conflict isn’t an inherently bad thing and it can actually enhance the experience and engage the reader. It sounds like you just don’t get the appeal of battle systems and then compared jjk to a fantasy setting when they have two very different goals. They do a lot of the same stuff but to have all the same expectations is silly. A series so focused on battles can’t afford to be too vague.
I always love stories that has more creatively and consistent to such a degree and is so good
Counter argument. One example among many of a highly explained magic system that inspires imagination and mystery is the nen system from Hunter X Hunter. It is based both on personality types and a rule where the more of a handicap a user gives themselves the stronger abilities they can develop. A part of nen fights is then to discover each others handicaps which can be anything from not stepping on the crack in pavements to needing to learn a secret of their target.
But it follows that , ther is enough room to go wild within it too. Ther eare soft parts too ,
This is true, but HxH also has times where pacing, an important element of storytelling, is chucked out the window for explaining a new element of nen. I mean...the end of the Chimera Ant arc is a perfect example. The amount of exposition in that part is absolutely insane. If you like it, that's fine, but at the end of the day if you're writing a story then it's a story and it needs to be paced.
at the end of the day all that matters is the story being told, there's no one way to handle power systems but how does it serve the story
I feel like there is a bit of a catch using Frieren as reference for how to exposit your magic system. Which is that it also isn't an action story. Some narratives have combat as the main draw or at least take up a good chunk of the center stage. Which would require a more in depth understanding and often contains combat with more complex structures. In Frieren most variants of magical abilities are rather basic even when applied. Not that there lacks tactics or forethought from the combatants, but ir's just isn't as heart thumping, tense or thought provoking as say a fight in early Naruto, Record of Ragnarok or Kengan Asura. Frieren's fights often don't really have layers upon layers of nuance from both parts. It'll have just enough to make it not a simple fight of might makes right, but far from anything super deep that is beyond very basic tactics. It results in fights that maintain enough interest as to not become stale and look cool too, but you're probably not coming for the fights to begin with nor are you holding these fights in particularly high regard when comparing it to actual battle manga. Frieren doesn't need to go that extra mile, but a different story will require different styles of writing.
Good video though it isnt a rule to not explain a magic system . You can show and explain it , a good example is HXH (hunter X hunter) which explain a lot of it magic system yet it just leave you even more curious about what possible in it and what its limit .
A lot of Brandon Sanderson's work shows this as well. Allomancy from Mistborn has extremely rigid and well understood rules from the beginning. A good magic system doesn't really need to be "mysterious" so much as have interesting potential.
Nen is a particularly good example, because its very well explained but everyone has their own "Hatsu" and restrictions, which gives the characters a lot of room to do interesting things.
Yeah, but I didn't really like the magic system until they showed me what you could do with it through our main characters. And it didn't become a great system until I saw what Kurapika could do with it.
Not to mention, the writer found a good way of making it concise. "You put a restriction on yourself, and the power of your Nen will increase."
@@geckgeck8616 It's true that Allomancy seems very strict, but I think that is because every other rule it has stems from at least 1 key rule: "Burn a certain metal to use a certain power. Despite the main eight powers being explained all at once, the series still continues to expand what Allomancy can actually do. Vin had a revelation about using the Copper and Bronze powers at the end of book 1, the Aluminum and and Duralumin powers were properly discovered in book 2, the Temporal and Enhancement powers were categorized in the sequel series, and that isn't even covering the other 2 magic systems in MIstborn, which also expand over time.
What I am trying to say is, Allomancy isn't as rigid as you may think. It may seem that way because Sanderson often explains his systems in entire chapters, but you have to remember that he writes books, which can do that better than mangas and shows and other visual storytellers.
Hunter X Hunter is well-known to have one of the best magic systems in anime.
@@ScritRighteridk, some stories are just not about the wonder and incredibleness of the magic system, but just about how some people use the magic rules that are already known. Not all stories need to make the reader ask questions about the magic system there may just be a story anout people using the magic or the system. If there is not enough explained everything just become a "wizzard did it" and it just breaks immersion if anything can just be explained "it's magic so whatever"
Wonder if I should do a video about hard magic and soft magic since some people seem to be confused about my advice here. The advice I'm giving applies to both types of magic systems. Even hard magic systems should have ambiguity, debate, and speculation. Even FMA, one of the hardest magic systems in fiction, often left portions of that magic system as a mystery. In fact, a great deal of the show and the adventure of FMA has to do with uncovering the mysteries of alchemy and the creation of a philosopher's stone. This is an example of how you can apply my advice to a hard magic system.
I'm not advocating for soft magic systems, I'm advocating for not YAPPING about your magic system until i'm bored out of my mind!
I mean, you do raise a lot of good points... Namely in how the magic systems are better when used to explore themes for the story, as opposed to giving paragraphs of exposition.
Or how it's great to give some level of uncertainty in how the magic system works, because that's the only way it can be like real life science, which mostly are theories but can get an evolving perception depending on what's discovered...
It's just I think you went a little too hard on saying that there is no appeal at all at treating a magic system as a science, while praising too much systems like The Force which is very vague and barely defined.
It gave a sense of too much bias for soft magic, with no appreciation for hard magic.
You don't understand the "yapping" about magic systems is what makes it Hard, A Magic System being Hard or Soft completely depends on how much the reader understands it.
You just don't like JJK's style and think your preference should be a universal standard when JJK is not the only series that has used that style to great effect and won't be the last, and those series are praised.
Why don't you instead ask yourself....why people like systems that involve what you derisively call "yapping" and save yourself and others 30 minutes of your own "yapping."
Because you come across as lacking self awareness and being pretentious.
If your going to tell basically everyone that disagrees with you you are wrong, you better bring better receipts.
I think your mistake is on presentation. "Magic CAN'T be Science." Hard magic system will naturally be science. you can't get away from it. There are strict rules, like how physics is. You can't do this with magic without this imposible barrier like you can't achieve light speed without 0 mass.
What I think you are saying is not to lecture your audience about magic but to demonstrate said magic system. With scientific demonstation you lack the numbers and atomic details, that is the mystery. But you still know what is going on with said science demonstation.
Now with Frieren. Frieren magic IS science with obvious display of magic being lectured, studied, and inovated upon. Magic is about visualization is a rule as it is the physics of magic, Zoltraak is a specialized killing spell turned obsolete with scientific development of the most basic defensive spell, the property and efficiency of defense spell is also treated as science. Just to add to the discussion.
@@dpolaristar4634
FMA's Hard Magic 'Yapping': Matter cannot be created nor destroyed, only transformed if you have the correct elements. Philosopher stones are the exception, however, and uncovering the truth about them is what sets us on our adventure!
JJK's Hard Magic YAPPING:
Human beings generate cursed energy and diffuse it into the world where curses become real, but no one can truly see them. Also, this only happens in Japan (for some reason). Sorcerers are people who are innately gifted with the ability to insulate their cursed energy from the rest of the world and use it to gain magic powers. But they don't always get cursed techniques. And sometimes they never get good because sorcery is really a matter of talent. Anyways, a jujutsu sorcerer can also make the potency of their technique even stronger by YAP- explaining how their technique works to their enemy. Because sorcery is stronger when people understand it more, sorcers themselves can also get stronger when they deepen their understanding of cursed energy. Also, the soul and the body are the same thing. Or rather, they are different. But like also the same. Anyways, that's to say that Toji is all body and no soul, but enough about him, where was I? Oh yes, cursed energy. Now, there are these things called 'domain expansions' and it's basically a tug of war where the sorcerer creates an extraplanear domain from their cursed energy. These domains have a 'sure hit' effect which basically means they can never miss their target once they've trapped their target in a domain with them. Domains are easier to break into on the outside than they are on the inside because they are usually made to keep people trapped in them. Also, technically domains don't HAVE to have the sure-hit effect, that was just something someone invented hundreds of years ago, and no one really bothered to make an easier domain or teach less advanced domains to other sorcerers. SPEAKING OF domains, there is something called a 'simple domain' which is like wearing a scuba suit underwater where you isolate yourself from someone else's domain. Now, people don't usually use domain expansions because it can really burn you out. Unless you're Gojo or Sukuna and you can expand your domain numerous times.
BY THE WAY there is also something called 'reversed curse technique' which is basically like taking a negative number and multiplying it by another negative number. In other words, it takes negative energy and turns it into positive, which then allows the user to heal themselves at double the cost of normal cursed techniques.
There's also cursed weapons which are capable of a bunch of different things including ignoring other cursed techniques for some reason. Anyways, where was I? Oh yeah, cursed techniques! They come in a wide variety, but I think I will go into one of my favorites: Hikari! You see, Hikari needs to be pretty lucky to use his curse technique. It's kinda like a gacha game... or a lottery? I dunno, anyways, it's a 1/263 chance to win the lottery and he does it a lot. But basically if he expands his domain- which by the way isn't a normal domain with the sure-hit effect- he can win the lottery and become IMMORTAL even though he doesn't know how to RCT, but anyways Hikari also has special cactus cursed energy which feels like getting hit with nails even though it's not really his technique or anything, it's just how he is. Anyways, he's a hands and feet merchant who deals hands and feet to his energy while he is functionally immortal and stuff. For four whole ass minutes his cursed energy comes out of nowhere and heals any injury he has.
And oh man, I forgot to tell you about how Kirara's technique works! Okay, so when you look at a star constellation-
10:24 "do not to make magic into science" everything you say after translates into "make magic into science."
I've been doing worldbuilding a lot lately and this video brings up a lot of great questions and good advice, thank you! I really love how the magic system is handled in Frieren
I reseve, information on writing magic systems.
You 6+ hours of my life.
Your understanding of the force, as many others is likely very wrong. Medichlorians do not produce the force. They simply dwell in force users. Random people have them and others are completely resistant. It's like having a second heart as a mutation, but it's always the power source for magic.
I may be wrong, but if what you say is true, snd considering the clone tech thats possible, why haven't anyone like grievious adopted it to give non force users force powers. We know from anakin you use the force through your body, but it also works with his metal arm.
That's holdo level lore breaking, except medichlorians appear in force users, not create force users.
Yes, his understanding of the force is incorrect. Midiclorians are just a way to guage force sensitivity: the force is not produced by the midiclorians. The idea that the force comes from midiclorians is a common misconception that fueled a lot of the fan resentment when it was introduced in Episode 1.
Remember, this is something 12 year olds were supposed to be able to follow. And yet we're still dealing with this misconception in the year 2024 🤦♂️
cause the force it itself makes clones go insane as seen in maney comics
Even though i completely hard disagree that a more science like magic system isnt good, there's a lot of truth to the other stuff in the video so good video.
Power system differs from magic system in this part power systrem to a point is pseudoscience
Comics and manga ain't all just fantasy.
What you should not do:
Introduce a villain that is so powerful, that you have to introduce a second villain who is even more powerful to kill the first villain. To reveal that the magic system was actually in fact not what you thought it was, but it only existed because of space ninjas who ate space fruit from a space tree. Which granted magical space powers to descendants of the second villain's twin children, after they killed the second villain the first time thousands of years ago. This way the deus ex machina that the main character and best friend receive is due to the fact that they are reincarnations of the twins to defeat the revived second villain.
Good ol' Naruto plot
Haven’t seen you in a while glad to see you you have a newer content overall I’m actually interested
My personal favorite magic systems are always ones that treat magic like a muscle that can be trained. You have some power source (like mana or magicka) that magic users can channel
You'd like the magic system in my book
This can actually help a lot. YT recommendations gave me something good to listen to. I should consider this, because my issue with establishing a definitive context on magic systems seems to give me so much burden, and hence complicates things and demotivates me to write. Thanks dude.
I'm gonna be honest, the "visualization" part of Frieren's magic system is 100% bullshit. Even the example that's given, Ubel being able to cut anything with her magic, is stupid. The idea that this spell can get through any defensive magic, simply because Ubel thinks it can, puts every other spell in question. Why aren't there more spells like this? How come the only one to hold this type of magic is Ubel (so far)? How come this same thought process hasn't been added to other types of magic like Zoltraak? In theory, the "Magic is just Visualization" thing seems fine, but the way it's used like in Ubel's magic is questionable. It's because with something like a black hole or something insanely destructive the idea is that you'd have to be able to visualize every single molecule or something to that degree for it to work. This makes sense to me and explains why few conjure up very destructive spells. It'd be the same as visualizing every atom splitting in an atomic bomb. But Ubel's magic implies that it doesn't have to be that deep. She just has to think that she can cut it with a knife. Makes me wonder how it can even be blocked with regular defensive magic. I've heard rationalizations that because she uses it herself she can't see herself cutting through it, but she can't see herself cutting around it? In this visualizational space, wouldn't that be what matters? But to be fair, I don't think we've directly seen how her cutting actually, y'know, cuts. From what I remember all we usually see are marks on walls appearing and people being cut in half, the cutting force itself is invisible (if I'm not mistaken). But at this point I don't even know if regular melee blocks can be blocked with defensive magic, because Radar's appearance in 125-126 has kind of put that into question because I don't think we've ever seen a defensive hex put against a straight melee attack. It could just be that this magic registers as a physical hit, and since defensive magic "might" not tank physical hits then it cuts through just fine. But it might have the condition of only working on defences she believes she can cut.
I kind of hate shitting on certain fictional systems because it's not like it could never make sense, but often the story is at a point where it just doesn't make sense. But that's not to say that I hate this system. It doesn't make sense to me, but to be fair I don't live in a reality that has magic. I've often thought that if something incomprehensible were ever to exist it would have to make no sense, because it's incomprehensible. An example of this can be found in Christianity. To us humans, the idea that Jesus Christ is God and the Holy Spirit, and at the same time not God and the Holy Spirit is incomprehensible. It makes no sense to us. How can someone be something, but be separate to that something? How can the Holy Trinity be both the same thing, but a trinity? It makes no sense. But if you're a Christian, you believe this is just how it is. And that sums up my ideas on how some things just don't make sense, but can be true. Humans cannot perceive the divine, the same goes for otherworldly ideas.
BTW there's also Frieren's pushing magic, wonder how that works.
P.S. Goddess Magic seems so much more interesting to me than the regular magic in the Frieren world, hope they go more into it later in the manga. (even though they already somewhat went into it).
What Goddess magic?
@@Монс-й1ь Which the priests use
I think it's highly compressed air. The same type of magic as modern types of magic, which rely more on the manipulation of physical objects. It’s just that Ubel herself never explains the principle of her magic (obviously), so that the enemy thinks that it is more dangerous than it really is and spends more mana on protecting against it. (She was also able to block her own magic from her clone, which hints at the physical nature of her magic)
But this is all speculation
@@Монс-й1ь The magic that Priests use, Heiter uses Goddess' magic.
@@Your_dear_friend9999 Your comment brings an interesting thought, what if Ubel is just lying about how her magic works? I think that'd be funny. I think it's somewhat unlikely though.
I think while there is 100% a quality factor to magic system, it also comes down to preference.
Like you don’t like JJK heavy exposition and saying everything about their system and such, but for some I know, they love it for that.
Like, that’s one reason Gojo vs Sukuna was so divisive.
We spent the whole time thinking Gojo could win, ever since early on he said could beat him.
And we learn about how Gojo’s ability works inside out.
Then guess what. In the battle, he breaks those ‘rules’.
Like exploding purple hollow mid trajectory and such.
And then Sukuna does the same thing. And what’s made him interesting for my friends who read JJK is we still don’t know all of his abilities, cause apparently he hasn’t even used them all or something.
The best magic system is one that works in harmony with your world, characters, plot and way of writing.
You wouldn’t do JJK style magic system in Frieren and vice versa since they’re both written around their plot and style of work.
Subbed without knowing anything else about this channel, solid video. I needed it
im not gonna say I watched the video before commenting this but that thumbnail is crazy
Its a frieren glazing video, it doesnt even touch on why jjk system is bad
I legitimately think that the magic system in Frieren breaks the worldbuilding.
This is a series centered around magic, but the anime (and manga) skips a bunch of questions about how spells work, for example: What is the deal with the staves? We've seen spells materialize out of the staff, out of magic circles, and even out of nowhere. We can clearly see Ubel swing her staff and then the cuts happen, but when she fights Wirbel she's just walking and the slashes are still happening.
Another thing, if magic is all about understanding how you visualize the spell, and thus, how it interacts with the world, why is magic research so...briefly mentioned? We have Kanne over here who wants to be a first class mage with water magic but she can't do shit if there's no water, then they hit us with the "humans are 70% water but you can't visualize the water in the human body", but why??? Do water magicians simply do not care about studying water and how it impacts living beings? Is it really that difficult to visualize the blood in another persons body coming to a halt? And Richter can create mountains, so that means he can visualize the movement of every single speck of dust, every single atom even?
Then we have Land, who is just a broken, he can control two clones (even more, actually) at the SAME time and have them walk hundreds of kilometers (because the alternative would be Land being capable of spawning his clones from really far away, but is far likelier that a clone can create another clone) and he's the supposedly the only one who knows this technique, somehow.
Also, how would you even acquire such ability? I assume some families gatekeep grimoires or something but it's weird how we see random characters have crazy spells and everyone (except Ubel I guess) just goes "yep, that's their spell and no one else's"
Won't say too much about Ubel, but consider this: If Ubel can just imagine cutting skin, then she would be capable of cutting Eisen in half. Innate warrior toughness you say? who cares, hair is meant to be cut am I right.
Ubel demonstrated the thought process in one scene. As she imagines that the fabric is easy to cut, she imagines that the enemy is in the place of fabric or that he is made of fabric, which is contrary to logic.
Even a talented magician was surprised when he heard something like this from her, because this is outside the norm for this world.
Richter most likely they do not create mountains, they simply imagine how they move the soil under their feet and lift it up. Most modern magic is based on the use of material objects, so manipulating them is much easier to imagine.
However, Elves and Demons have a completely different way of using magic, even if it is the same for everyone, the method is different for everyone in their own way.
And at the beginning we were shown how they studied the demon spell, which then became a basic attack spell. Why complicate the story in anime even more if the purpose of this story is not to reveal the structure of the world but simply to retell the story of Friren? The point of the story is not the magic, but what happens after the “BBG is defeated.”
It doesn't break the world building. Magic works in the way the user and defender believes it does. It just so happens that the vast majority of mages we see in Frierun are ones who have learned at academically.
If you understand it as a science with rules then that's what it is. If you understand it as a boundless abstract art form than it is, and it's neither of those all at once. It's just magic, an oxymoron of itself. Controlled Chaos. Simultaneously an understandable concept based in logic and a fathomless concept based in arbitrarities, and that's the point. The literal manifestation of subjectivity.
The reason it can be studied and replicated through grimoires, or focused through staves and incantations, is because that's what often works for people. Assigning logic aids in the visualization process.
But with outliars like Übel, it reveals its true nature, or lack thereof. Übel is someone who casts purely off of instinct. She doesn't even understand the "rules" that others have coveted for so long in their academia, and so as long as she can latch on to something that is within her frame of reference, those "rules" don't apply to her. They don't even exist.
Effectively magic is like "play". You can "play" in a lot of different ways. You can assign rules to create games, and battle against one another using those rules. Whoever is the most skilled at working within those rules will come out on top.
Maybe you can create a game based on the debate of intelligence and logical deduction, or maybe you've created a game that's based on instinct and intuition, maybe you've created a game with almost no rules at all, but regardless, when you're fighting someone who's playing the same game it always comes down to who's more skilled at playing _that_ "game."
But if someone else who is playing an entirely different game comes along, the cut and dryness of the battle is completely shifted, which is where the "rock-paper-scissors" effect comes in.
Burg used what he understood about magic to enchant his cloak with so many charms that he could block every attack that he could possibly fathom. But you can't possibly fathom the nature of an attack from someone who isn't even abiding by the same fundamental rules of magic as you. You can't win a battle of academic logic against someone who just tells you "No, cloth is meant to be cut," and so all of those charms are meaningless.
He never could have anticipated someone as completely detached from the reality he knows as Übel, while she on the other hand, knows what cloth is and what it's for. So she won, effortlessly.
Magic battles in Frierun are battles of imagination, cunning, and willpower, manifested into magical effects.
@@SSL_2004 Just a great comment.
JJk manga literally tells you to skip the walls of text , nobody cares how they work they just need to make sense .
That's the translators telling you that the power doesn't work In the medium of manga
5:40 i learned this in school and it gave me the idea to make a character with the power to manipulate heat, which they used to give the impression of ice magic. they can take the heat away from an object or person, making it "cold".
I don’t normally comment and usually not this often on one persons channel but literally the quality of these videos writing is top tier; concise, well paced, has interesting and relevant examples/analogies and has enough personality to make it unique. I look forward to seeing more of your work and I hope you get ur flowers for it
Thanks, that's really sweet! Also, if I get any more compliments I will become the most annoying type of person as a self defense mechanism/j
Bro used the TF2 medigun hook up sound for 1:04
How you describe magic is how science is described... the rules are onyl somewhat understood and we only know it might be true because we can repeat it...
Like most magic system (DND, Anima beyond, vampire the markarade. do the same thing get same result, pay with mana blood items etc...get predictable results, thus can be learned thus is science.
The only magic system where the science part is weak would be chaos/warp/psyker power in the warhammers universes (both old world/age of sigmar and 40k)
Imagine a power system built on the question “what can a power system NOT do”
Example: a magic system built on different types of magic. They CAN’T be mastered the same way, hell they can’t even be TAUGHT the same way. And in the hands of humans we can’t actually play God at all times due to circumstance variables
The idea that magic begins where science ends is a fantastical concept that allows a writer to pull off things that, given sufficient suspense of disbelief, seemingly naturally go far beyond what people think should be possible.
On the other hand, the concept of magic being a science, with things like alchemy/summoning circles, and the like, usually based on the real life theory of Hermeticism (attributed to some Egyptian guy named Hermes, founded on the idea that god is a wizard, and thus all things are governed by systems of magic, and was the origin of alchemy) makes the suspension of disbelief a little easier for those who aren't looking for the Harry Potter experience.
While magic as a science can get very dull if the story gets drowned out by a pseudo quantum physics lecture, using a system like Hermeticism can allow for amazing storytelling, with plenty of wiggle room for all levels of fantasy depending on how fast and lose you want to play it, as it was never truly concrete theory to begin with, just the best they had to go on for like a thousand or so years. However, while a lot of fantasy settings will throw back to it, I've heard it said that Hermeticism was so convoluted that Newton, who was raised on and devoted his life to it, invented calculus as a simple alternative, and that alone says a lot. xD
For some, the fun is in digging through the minute details with a Sherlock style breakdown of how a thing happened, for others it's being vague enough to let the consumer imagine and wonder at how it all works - while the style that works best depends on the intended audience, ultimately, the real limitations are the creativity and talent of the writer, and the imagination of both them and their audience.
You got under my skin with that thumbnail, not gonna lie.
I knew I recognized your name from somewhere. You're the one who jebaited other people during a certain drama.
I have to say though, I love listening to your writing videos. (Adding them all to my over 1,000 video playlist filled with writing & drawing videos to take notes. God fuck me.)
ah yeah, that's me. Drama's dumb. Writing's fun and chill. Come write.
For me, I love it when they explored, expand and how it affects the world building. Mushoku Tensei is a perfect example and why I love it's world building and how the story progresses it
This is more of a preference thing than a objective thing
In my opinion, you misunderstand JJK. At 7:09 you say "your magic system shouldn't change too much but the perception you and your audience has of it should", but it is absolutely the case for JJK. Simply with a much more complex and intricate system. When you actually read the explanations, you see a great deal of novelty in how the characters of JJK use those concepts, and how the way a character uses them describe their psyche. There is a barrier to entry, but the payoff is only much higher because of that.
If we take your science class analogy. You prefer middle school or high school science class, while disregarding college level science. And claiming the later has less magic to it. Which is not true, the barrier is higher but for a higher payoff.
Nah, JJK's magic system is extremely incoherent and gives off the impression that the author is extremely irresponsible to his own established rules, which is to say that he's very prone to arbitrarily bend and disrespect the logic of magic system he established before, just to pull off a little bit of shock value in the current progressing plot.
@@lab-virus What rule did he break?
@@lab-virus This just isn't true, the characters aren't just bending or breaking the rules the closest they get to anything like this is by using techniques in a new way. Even then, you would have to list specific instances because I can't think of a single time they outright broke an established rule.
@@Cjaj2 The rule that JJK broke is the implicit existence of the power hierarchy of various individuals and curse techniques that the author had laid out across chapters. The author has a proclivity to simply conjure up some random BS that ostensibly adhere to the overarching universe of curse magic system but felt extremely inauthentic and haphazard in the way it's put together. As you're watching the show, you can't help but felt that this new shinning object introduced on the next new character felt like a far-fetched insertion of a gimmick that could have been plucked from any other random fantasy manga, we see the author repeatedly intended to impress fans with the next new surprise but fall so flat that these new characters settings or new techniques just came off as some arbitrary placement, as if they're a cheap trick inserted there just to serve a plot, like he can make up a bullshit technique out of nowhere just so that he can keep a character alive in a fight where he/she should have been long dead fighting an overwhelmingly more powerful opponent.
@@lab-virus
Can you give an example rather than just.... Writing a paragraph complaining about the authors writing? The two replies were asking for EXAMPLES of rule breaking in JJK
14:39 I *really* liked this, because it was an almost completely unique concept that no one has done in recent times at least. His ultimate attack basically got turned into magic missile
In a story I have been planning the magic system is given several explanations with no definitive answers and different schools,cultures and people have different ideas around it with only very little being definitive fact, I feel that this gives enough explanation for fans who love to study powers systems in depth while still keeping things subjective enough to be up to one’s own interpretation.
I personally like hard magic systems. Understanding the ins and outs of how magic works and is scientifically studied within its setting triggers my imagination far more than a vague "a wizard did it" systems.
My dude, you have no idea how much I needed to find this video. I've been trying to put together a magic system for a book I'm doing which is an collection of short stories charting my character's life from young girl sold into slavery to upstart witch-general of a peasant revolution. However I could not write one word I didn't hate because her magic was so wishywashy, generic, and underwhelming.
I was stuck using the old way of thinking, wherein I needed to come up with a fuel for my magic, a means by which it was transmitted (magic words, wands, etc), and a bunch of other crap. None of it worked, and I hated all of it as it (ironically) felt too limiting while being too generic and broad. Skip ahead to my finding this video and I realised I had been approaching this from the wrong perspective entirely.
So instead I sat down and just said "Okay, magic can do anything it wants, anytime it wants - How do I impose rules on that which limits its problem-solving ability in the narrative, punishes anyone who abuses it to enforce consequences and therefore a consistent internal logic, and maintain the mystery while utilising a set of rules only I know".
I sat down, broke my magic down into the two forms I wanted, plus a subset for the first form that's kind of a forbidden splinter (not as generic as it sounds I promise) and wrote a concise, tight set of rules for each. Now I, finally!, have a magic system I love. By focusing on writing a list of rules as the backbone, then overlaying that with the existing world-building, I was able to hit all the points I needed. It's now broad enough for my imagination to do the heavy lifting while keeping my focus narrow and the problem-solving ability consistent.
You have no idea how grateful I am for the inspiration you gave me. I watched like 20-30 videos on building magic systems, and it turns out I just needed 1 video explaining that "No you don't need a magic system, you need a set of rules to create a precise internal logic and you build from there". Awesome video. Subbed, liked, and obviously commented which I almost never do on this site. Just needed to express my genuine gratitude.
Glad it was helpful!
Frieren is decent but I wouldn’t say its a masterpiece.
Frieren its perfect even that way. A truly complex and simple masterpiece.
I really like your explanation of the Force. It used to be like, a more spiritual experience to do with control and lack of control, though that's debatable, I really liked it like that. Where it's more connection to the world and peace. You know? It's just more interesting when it's speculative, like you said.
Ki, Chakra, and Cursed Energy are less 'Magic' systems than 'Power' Systems, only one close to magical is Chakra amoung the lesser informed in the Naruto world. Ki is clearly not magic, as magic itself exists in DB. We should stop labeling everything 'Magic' systems and make the broader term a 'power' system, because whimsical magic systems aren't the objective
These terms are indistinguishable. Magic system doesn't literally mean magic (and that's ignoring that cursed energy is literally Japanese shamanistic magic mixed with modern occultism, and ki and Chakra are both based on the same exact Eaten mysticism).
"Magic system" is a literary term to refer to supernatural phenomenon used as plot devices in fiction. The characters don't have to call it magic, and being able to shoot energy and fly would be called magic no matter how the series describes it if it was real life. Brandon Sanderson, when he made the term up, used Spider-Man as an example of a hard magic system. "Power system" is just a giveaway that you're talking about shonen, and shonen fans are notoriously adverse to having their media referred to as fantasy. And yes, all three of those series are fantasy. DB is an adventure fantasy, Naruto is epic fantasy, and JJK is urban fantasy.
@@muntu1221 The only reason I made that comment was because a 'magic system' carries a different connotation, and this people expect it too be mysterious. Power system doesn't carry this conotation.
@@muntu1221 Dragon Ball is fantasy? Probably explains why I can't Kamehameha this bad faith video out of my feed. Unfortunate 😔
It's all magic - it doesn't matter if it's life force, mana, or ancient technology, it all fulfils the same role in the story of some force that the existence of is impossible in our world, and that can best be generalised as "magic". The matter replicator and the warp drive are essentially equally as "magical" as the balrog and the dragon, the only difference is the precise label and the vibes that are attached.
@@dinoseen3226 You missed the guy's point twice. Literally just read his 2nd last reply to see that he understand what _"magic"_ means here, and that it's not the point.
Notice that most the comments disagree with you and maybe you can learn what other's like about storytelling that you might be missing. I know as the content creator you probably consider it your role to educate everyone else. But your sort of assertion with the word choice you use in this video implies that what makes some system "better" is not merely your opinion, but either more objective or at the very least intersubjective. But when the majority of people fail to agree with your explanation, maybe it's time to either tone it back much more into the "this is my take and most don't agree" camp, or keep your intersubjective approach but admit you are wrong.
People love hard magic systems. People love the concrete feeling that a character in the story can make purposeful and meaningful improvements because they have learned about the magic and acted in response to learning. It's also generally enjoyable to know your magic system isn't being used as a crutch for bad writing. A magic system that is too loose leaves any potential outcome on the table from the perspective of the viewer, which lowers the stakes. If something with the magic happens that is possible under your secret "under the hood" mechanics but the viewer doesn't see that stuff at all, it seems like you have nothing "under the hood" and just want the magic to solve plot problems for you. The softer the magic system the harder it is for viewers to get invested in how events would logically play out because you've provided a doorway for a much wider variety of things to occur that technically can.
And in the most loose sense, you underestimate how much people actually enjoy learning. Those science and history demonstrations ironically proved you wrong. Bill Nye didn't teach us things we don't understand, he taught us largely consensus science, stuff we know to be true, he just did it in an entertaining way. He wasn't purposely being vague and hiding details about the topic for a sense of mystery, he was rising to the challenge of demonstrating facts in an engaging manner. That's what a good magic system can do.
I don't care too much for an appeal to popularity when it comes to deciding if I'm 'wrong' or not. "More people agree with me" is not a metric by which I establish my values or beliefs, and if it was those beliefs wouldn't really be mine.
I don't really care if people disagree or don't fully understand. That's fine. If anything I've found more people misunderstand my advice than actually disagree with it because during their long winded arguments they will argue what I literally advocate for.
My own book is a hard magic system, and I never said there was an issue with a hard magic system. I said there's an issue with too much useless exposition in a magic system, and that 'complex' is not 'compelling'. That definitive answers are not as interesting as theories and speculation and they never will be.
@@ScritRighter Appeal to popularity matters when the metric by which you are defining "good" and "bad" is intersubjective. Your language implies that you aren't being subjective but rather stating facts about what is good and bad. Maybe I'm wrong and you think your position on this is objective, in which case that's pretty crazy but at least it's consistent.
@@bigboy2217 Appeal to popularity is a logical fallacy so I don't give it much credence. If you think i'm giving this advice as the only way to write magic systems or that it's objectively correct I mean- sure it's subjective in some regards, but in other regards there are objective methods of writing which can make your story better.
You are wrong, but it's not the 'wrong' you're assuming. You're just wrong lmao. Appeal to popularity doesn't matter when determining something is good or bad. I've got what I believe and I don't care how many people agree with it. You're gonna need a more convincing argument than "Well everyone else thinks this way!"
If I didn't think I had something new or different to offer to the conversation around writing there would be no point to the video aside from affirming what other people already believe.
@@ScritRighter
Subjective - Good or bad is contingent on your personal preference
Objective - Good or bad is independent of the thoughts or stance of any person
Intersubjective - Good or bad is made by generalizing or averaging the subjective positions of a group of people, basically convention.
Thinking “that’s a fallacy lol” wrt intersubjectivity is like some dunning-krueger misuse of that fallacy. It’s akin to responding to “Obama won the election so he’s president” to “Wow appeal to popularity fallacy bro”. Appeal to popularity generally applies because the collective perspectives of people generally aren’t causally related to the claim. In this case they are, because every time you talk it appears as if you are using an intersubjective standard of good and bad. You can “objectively” track if an act is in line with a convention. For example it’s objectively the case that giving somebody the middle finger in America is rude. But the convention itself is just that, a convention, which is intersubjective not objective. The fact that people consider it an insult to do that motion quite literally makes it rude.
@@bigboy2217 I've recognized the fallacy correctly from your statement. You said "You should change your opinion because the 'majority' of people in this comment section disagree with you."
That is an appeal to popularity no matter how you try to condescendingly explain the difference between subjective, objective and intersubjective. I don't care about the intersubjective either because an appeal to popularity doesn't give a shit about whether or not what's popular is intersubjective or not.
And in your example you also fail to recognize that electoral offices do not win by a vote of popularity, they win by electoral votes. There have been numerous occasions where the more 'popular' presidential candidate has lost.
Also, you're correct in saying that calling out a presidency as an 'appeal to popularity' to be stupid and wrong. That's because it's not an argument, it's a state of office. Saying "Obama was voted president" Is a matter of fact, it's not an appeal to popularity. So someone saying "That's an appeal to popularity" is an idiot who doesn't know what an appeal to popularity is. Obama is a president and was inaugurated as a president under the US government. That's not a matter of opinion or rhetoric.
YOUR argument, IS an appeal to popularity though. And you're either too stubborn or too much of a knowitall to acknowledge it. So you've tried (and failed) to distinguish YOUR logical fallacy and pretend as if there is any criteria to ad populum.
Saying:
"Notice that most the comments disagree with you and maybe you can learn what other's like about storytelling that you might be missing."
Is ad populum. Then you go on to say that if my goal is to educate I should appeal more to the people i'm 'educating' when
A) My goal isn't to educate it's to explore ideas about writing and give advice based on my preferences as a writer
B) As if a teacher must appeal to their student's popular opinion to convey a lesson they're trying to teach because it might offend their sensibilities.
Beliefs change, and it doesn't matter how many believe in something. Saying people in my audience disagree with me and therefore I am wrong is not a valid argument nor a critique. Especially when- and you ignored this part- the majority of people from my perspective seem to agree, but they think they disagree because they've misunderstood what I was saying. They're not arguing with what I believe or what i've said in my video, they're arguing with what they assume I've said.
Showing instead of telling is very important. When I reveal the magic system in my novel, there's mentions of it here and there, and the basics of it get explained through a character interactions that moves the plot forward ... and even then the scene is more focused on the bond of the brothers than the magic itself. The brothers discussing magic and one offering to help the other one with something he's struggling with serves the purpose to help the brothers bond, but it also helps reveal the basic rules of the world's magic. There's also something unpredictable about magic as a whole, because it is a fundamental cosmic force. It can be guided along patterns, but not controlled. Of course this, too, is never said outright. It's simply something you notice as you follow the story of the brothers.
Throughout the time of the story the world is also evolving and advancing, and because of the unpredictable and often dangerous nature of magic, the discovery of technology makes the use of it more and more rare as time goes on. Technology is mathematical and mechanical, it does what is expected of it, does what it is built for. If well built, it is predictable and safe. Magic, however, is not a force that can be fully controlled. It is raw and wild. It is more comparable to an animal trained with conditioning and treats. It will, much of the time, do as it is directed to do, but it's not guaranteed and even the most practiced, skilled practitioner can't guarantee success or the spell to do what they want it to do. I use this to move the plot forward a LOT, it's an effective tool and pushes character development forward in many scenes.
FINALLY! SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS THE LESSON!
@@ScritRighter Showing instead of telling was something I struggled with for so long, I get a lot of useful videos in my recommends and this gave me lots to think about, and made me feel encouraged about my magic system! I realized how many of the pitfalls I avoided falling into which has me wanting to sit down and write again! I have clear rules set in my mind... And it's so hard not to exposit it all right away because I am excited about its potential, but having notes and a personal outline has helped me with that... And brainstorming buddies who don't mind me rambling and hyperfixating for weeks at a time lmfao. I have everything written down for me to refer back to just so I can stay consistent... Even with the spanner in the works thrown by various cosmic forces and energies, Eldritch entities, and all the other strangeness that happens in the world.
The world is full of unknowable forces and entities.... But I think I have managed to make it pretty consistent.
Course... I need to actually finish my novel instead of perfectionist looping over what I have already written...
One pet peeve I have with magic systems is that they seem like they can do literally ANYTHING like making characters invincible, creating and solving every problem and can control basically anything like space, time and reality itself.
Yeah some high fantasy series suffer from that
i read one book where they could do all that impossible stuff but it took so much energy that it would just straight kill you if you tried anything too difficult. So everyone sticks to small explosions and simple yet clever maneuverings of magic.
that is how magic is supposed to be, if you don't like go look for something else
@@colorpg152 That makes it boring, if there is no risk all reward you might as well be casting "win now" and "win now but it beats the other win now". Like when a fighting game releases a character that breaks all the balancing rules. We don't like it because it's not fun. I'd be all for the crazy reality changing magic if it forced users to sacrifice something, like sealing away their own magic from overuse for an incredible amount of time leaving them vulnerable to other fights or the permanent removal of magic. That way it creates a sense of balance and makes it so that there is a reasonable way to use magic but also a good reason not to use magic.
@@Thelisreal-sh3tz it only makes it boring if you have a soft magic system like he want, if you have a hard magic system then its about preparation and finding weak points, counters and loopholes in the enemy ability, if you limit magic from entering the realm of gods and doing things like messing with time space life death and souls then you are left with 3 choices: 1- these levels of threat never show up which just boring and reducing scope for no reason, 2- they have to rely on things like gods to help them in which case you are being anti-humanist 3- you don't have those things show up at all in which case why even write about magic, go write about romance mystery or other mundane things
5:50 - temperature is simply a measurement of the energy in an object/area.
Thus heat death is the expected end pint of everything so I'm more fearful of this than earth warming up again.
Earth will be long gone by the time the heat death ends the universe.
@@ScritRighter but will we... Endless, sleepless nights pondering.
It is nice to see a show with a soft magic system where the only limits to what magic can do is the mage's imagination and how much mana they have
I’ve always loved the idea of magic having consequences. whenever I think about adding powers to my own world, I like to add a reason not to use it.
kinda inspired from mha, how weirdly enough, their quirks are reasonable mutations. and most are inherited/combinations of their parents. and all of them have good drawbacks (fire/ice quirks overheating/causing frostbite, hence enji wanted a kid with both to cancel out. how dabi isn’t immune to his fire- but weak to it. how using too much electricity short circuits kaminari, etc etc)
with some of the magic mentioned here I thought about cool ways to detour them. fair warning, might ramble on a bit,
teleportation would be like, either travelling through yourself, or opening a portal through time and space to go where you need. but going through that dimension and coming back out takes a toll on your body. I like the idea of time magic taking time off your own life, so it’s less desirable to creatures wth a short life- though, to those with an immortal lifespan, (or even just a large one) it’s like child’s play.
on that note, immortals. I don’t think it has much realism, even in fantasy. instead of ACTUALLY living forever, it makes more sense for it to ALLOW you to live forever. you can still be killed by outside forces, or yourself if immortality grows tiring, but are immune to things like aging. your body would instead age slower beyond a certain point, before halting altogether. (or perhaps a spell causes it, halting your age there)
necromancers are interesting. of course, there’s the whole “morality” argument, but excusing that.. I rarely see anyone mention side effects. I imagine someone who performs necromancy would slowly deteriorate, their body becoming gross and zombie-like until they lose all sense of self. eventually, they’d become essentially brain-dead, their body but a husk of who they once were.
or perhaps you need to sacrifice another being to bring one back. like soul swapping of sorts. regardless, ANY sort of revival has to come at a price. if its as easy as “gather 3 rare ingredients and read this spell”, it negates the impact of a death. if its so easy, what’s to stop from reviving the main characters whole dead family?
if you’re reviving someone, there needs to be a reason, and consequences. maybe you sacrifice multiple people for one, and they’re brought back as a husk of their former self. what body do they take? is their old one still viable, or do they inhabit a new one? does the old host get kicked out, or do they fight for control?
anyways. I like playing around with this idea lol
(gonna edit more in in a sec, my ipads glitching like hell lol)
In my opinion a good magic system straddles that thin line between logical consistency and emotional consistency.
19:28 Someone explained it really well in that a good thing can give the heroes the tools they need to fix the problem, but they can't get rid of the problem. That's why a lot of people hate luck, but a lot of times it's completely fine if you work with it.
i like how the example on "tell a story not just regurgitate facts" is also how the video is set up as well
Recently read a manhwa with a power up within the midst of battle that was done really well. It's called Infinite Mage. It was actually built up to. It's something everyone knows about but was considered too dangerous to attempt. However, it's something everyone wants to be able to achieve. When it's attempted in the story. It's done as a means of last resort and there are actual tangible consequences. It didn't come out of no where. It also wasn't done as some climactic last attack. It was done to enhance something we knew the protagonist and many other mages could do. But not fast enough to be helpful in that situation. In the aftermath, everyone knows what happened and it isn't some major revelation. However, we get to see each characters unique perspective on the issue
I have a lot of issues with these more generic manhwa but this plot point was handled spectacularly well
If you wanna look at a really cool magic system, please do yourself a service and check out Witch Hat Atelier, probably the most creative magic I've seen in years! I'm certain you'd like it, this manga is incredible in general.
For me personally, even if I do share your opinion on JJK to an extent, I also dislike how things are done in Frieren.
In Frieren, even if it's delivered better, the thing being delivered feels so bland that I didn't get any excitement out of it. When they did explain how things work more in detail (like how older mages have more mana), there's nothing to really chew on and you could guess the vast majority of it just by thinking about the usual fantasy tropes.
It's not vague because it hints something cool, it's vague because its extremely generic and it couldn't deliver more if it tried. When it did, it really fell flat for me (Ubel can cut things because... She just can, okay?).
The way people acquire magic in this universe also played into that: In Frieren, you get stronger by sitting on your a*s reading a book for X months/years. I understand it plays into the themes of the story, but it's such a horrible way to view learning, when there are plenty of examples of fun organic learning in this very show!
Thank you! WHA deserves way more praise than it gets.
You make a very interesting and valid point about history and science. When I was eleven years old, in 6th grade, I had a science teacher and it was something that he said that's stuck with me to this day, that's the reason love science I think. He told us on the first day of class that everything he was about to teach us was a lie. Or rather, it was wrong. That was a bit of an exaggeration lol, but it got our attention (or at least it got mine). Like, what? Why are you teaching us this if it's wrong? He then elaborated and said that it's correct now but years from now, as we learn more and more, some of the stuff he taught us will no longer be true. Certain theories and scientific principles, even the periodic table, is prone to change. Just like you said, we are always learning more; scientists are always disproving, analyzing and improving, and proving different theories about the world and the way we understand it to work. Idk what my other classmates thought, but his words inspired and excited me! It didn't make me care less about the lessons he taught us, if anything it made me more eager to learn them! The thought that we are always learning and discovering, and what is true today may not be true tomorrow. Even old and well-established theories aren't immune, and that thought excited me. It meant a world of possibilities! So when you said that it really struck a chord with me and I think you're right, it's the stories and a balance between explanation and mystery that makes for good magic systems and is what makes history and science so fascinating. Some fantasies may lean more towards one side or the other, but so long as you don't go overboard and explain EVERY painstaking detail, or the opposite, withhold too much and not explain anything, I think you will find people that like your story.
This is a direct critique to Branderson and no one can convince me otherwise.
Pure blish to hear, sensei Scrit.
Reading your desc.
That doesn't make the system bad. That makes the narration bad. It has nothing to do with the system. Thumbnail is still shit.
It's almost like the video is talking about how a good magic system means nothing if it's not conveyed properly.
Hard Magic vs Soft Magic has their own advantages and disadvantages. Due to the mysterious nature of Soft Magic, it truly feels like magic. Due to the understandable nature of Hard Magic, it creates clear limits. Hard Magic can't feel mysterious, but Soft Magic can't feel clever.
The Fairy God Mother turning the pumpkin into a carriage is magical, but not clever, because for all we know she could have conjured a Lamborghini. When you have clearly defined rules then you can find clever and interesting ways to work around those rules and with those rules. Like Lord of the Rings, "No man can kill me", "I am no man". We're given a clear rule, and then a work around for that rule.
Two magic systems I found interesting have got to be from Faraway Paladin and Grimoire of Zero. Faraway Paladin puts a huge emphasis on words and intention, though I forget if the part with words is a matter of “confidence affects ability” or if it’s more literal (i.e. placing a curse on yourself through self-deprecation). Grimoire of Zero’s magic is largely based on incantations, to the point where using different words can influence the power of a spell.
Valid point, but i prefer long detailed hard magic systems
2:10 yeah history was one of my favorite classes cuz i was lucky to get teachers who knew how to keep us engaged
5:40 That's just one way to view it. I think the idea of the cold coming in is just as valid.
I think I watched this video before but didn't leave a comment so: While I agree that wonder and mystery can be great in a fantasy story as it installs a feeling of whimsy, this can also be incompatible with certain plots/settings. For example, I'm writing a fantasy story set in a fantasy world but takes place at a Harry Potter-esque magic school. People go there to learn magic so it's guaranteed that the magic system will be explained.
The goal with my magic system has always been to create something balanced that doesn't allow for deus ex machinas. If the characters have to fight a troll, there is no "troll killing" spell that they blast it with so, they have to be creative with magic to solve the problem. This goal of balancing my magic is also why my magic system ends up being more explained. What magic can and can't do has to be clear enough that the audience doesn't ask "why didn't they just use magic".
I also consider balancing when it comes to the worldbuilding. As mentioned in the video, teleportation would greatly change travel. But part of my story is adventure, so I need to nerf teleportation enough where it's not the go to option but not so much that it can't be used when I want to use it. This means that this part of the magic system has to be explained more. The same thing can be said for so many uses of magic as a lot of them carry certain implications. Time travel, mind control, weather control, love potions, etc.
Personally, I try to avoid copying Tolkien. My elves aren't immortal for example. I take more inspiration from anime like Naruto and Black Clover but sparingly. Most of my inspiration comes from folklore and mythology- the actual historical beliefs and practices performed by different cultures.
To be honest, I am more of a scientifically minded person so maybe I'm just predisposed to think that way even when writing magic. I love fantasy but I don't believe in magic, ghosts, or anything supernatural. Could this possibly hinder me? Some people might think so. I don't disagree with the points this video is making; I just don't think it's 100% compatible with my goal. I want my magic system to be reflected in the worldbuilding and in my mind that means explain what can and can't be done. This does not mean I'm going to info dump all the information. I try to avoid exposition (which is difficult due to the setting). Maybe I'm misunderstanding the point, but I think my magic system will work better with a more detailed explanation. I wouldn't consider my story High Fantasy as it's set in a more "modern" society. It's not an industrial society because of worldbuilding reasons, but they do have some technology that would be consider anachronistic for a typical fantasy world (radios, trains, etc). The point I was trying to get to is this world has scientific knowledge so magic is often approached in a similar way. If magic did exist, we'd want to learn everything we could about it to better understand it. Humans have been doing this even when it was common to believe in magic.
"Cold doesn't exist" is a myth for the same reason that subtraction and adding negative numbers are ENTIRELY equivalent. Its all an accounting system. A way to keep track of displacement from one thing to another. As far as the math is concerned you are entirely justified in moving cold into your body.
In my own story I mostly took an AtLA approach to magic and had it be an element based system, and some of the things I came up with were the police force using Light Magic to locate evidence of crimes(things like finger prints, or remnants of spells) or using earth magic to grow crops and help with construction. The whole world was built around the elements and what that magic's existence would do to a standard fantasy setting. Though there's classifications of magic, you can mix and match them, and they aren't straight up just "You can summon fire" or "Move water around" but more of a general type of thing you can do. Fire magic can do things like generate heat or cause combustion, while dark magic can twist minds or even forms to the caster's will. The elements are more like guidelines than a hard rule, but there's still a science to the magic. I think having hard set rules makes a magic system more interesting and makes the moments where someone finds something new more exciting and satisfying since it's far more unexpected and ground breaking versus a system where if you think it, it happens.(And that preference definitely shows in my own magic system)
After about ten minutes, it seemed like you had beaten your point to death... then I saw there were 20 more minutes left. And ultimately when it comes to systems, soft magic vs hard magic is only relevant so far as it serves the narrative. Both have their place.
This was not a very good video, in my opinion, though I can respect the effort you put into your points. But after you had already killed the horse, you kept beating it, and that's simply not fun or interesting to watch or listen to.
In the Magic System in the story I’ve been writing, I only ever say it as a Power System instead. I only thought of how it would be beneficial in fights, but taking a step back to just think about how it would work in the world is a lot more interesting.
I really like the conclusion you ended off with at the end there. Magic and Science can perfectly coexist, just not the shallow public understanding of Science, after all real science is just utilizing theories to explain facts or observations about the world, and isn't absolute in its explanations.
On the subject of magic specifically and as a kind of counter to the whole hard vs soft debate that seems to exist in the comments here, this advice 100% applies to both. You can be as detailed or vague as you want when defining your magic system for YOURSELF, but that doesn't mean that everyone in your setting needs to have an omniscient understanding of how the system works.
A good exercise I think for those more into hard magic systems would be to go through the list of rules for the system and ask themselves what are some ways this rule could be misinterpreted or misunderstood within the world itself. That question alone could be a good jumping off point for adding some mystery back to the way magic functions and provide some unique scenarios depending on the answer.
Using science can destroy a magic system, but I do love shows that use science to get by, like in Doctor Stone, where there is no magic, just science, and I love shows like that
Chasing this Dragon was fun to watch. I subbed.
I am currently writing a story where magic exists but is not available to humans and most other living beings. While others, such as Elves and Monsters have it in the form of "essence". An intangible and invisible thing which allows you to wield magic, which in of it self is the realm of imagination. But that imagination is limited to some basic rules, which may go into depths depending on what you want to manifest. Mankind was forced to adapt in a unique way to survive and thrive in this world. The rest of the world looked down upon them because they could not wield magic (though halflings can wield it, they tend to have less "essence" though even to those who sense it the amount of "essence" is arbitrary and can't be fully explained.)
The main character is a human scientist who was born in the Human Realms, an industrialized society with tech on par with the early 1900's (with some tech being more advanced and some other tech or scientific knowledge lacking compared to the real world. The environment and history is different, hence the advancement of technology is different.)
Magic is seen by the new generations of humans as something that can be studied, explained and eventually used in some way despite their lack of "essence".
I am still working on it and will probably change some things. The world and history is something I have to still think about, though I have a good foundation I believe.
It'll be posted on Royal Road once I am satisfied with the final product, so if you're interested it'll be called "From the Ashes".
Personally, I really like "Infinite Mage" 's magic system. What creates magic is unknown and there are a lot of other mysteries but it also has a sciency side.
That last part on how rules, beyond constraining our worldbuilding, empowers it, is perfectly depicted on one of the, in my opinion, best magic systems in anime: Hunter x Hunter's Nen. It does over explain at times, and abuse exposition. But there's still lots of mystery coming from it. But the part that catches my atention the most is how it meta-uses this whole "rules as empowerment" statement. Nen is all about visualization and imagination; but the more rules and constraints you apply to your ability, the more powerful it becomes. Take for instance Kurapica's ability, the restraining chain. It can only be used against members of the Spider. Against them, it is almost unstoppable. But if used against anyone else, he dies. This shows how limits, rules and constrains are, in fact, an empowering and enables growth for our characters. The same is true for riseing actual human beings, if you think about it...
You are greatly confused. "Yapping" about the inner workings of the power system is not a problem of the power system itself but presentation.
Frieren's magic system is actually generic, but the power system is not presented as the main focus but the characters. Take that in contrast to HxH. They do a lot of info dumping, but the system is so complex and rooted to the story it is needed. And even then, they do not tell you all at once, but reveal its nuances along the arcs.
If anything, the real lesson is that a good story does not necessarily need a hard power system, but it benefits from it.