GM Ben Finegold on the Hans Niemann WSJ Article
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2022
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A note about the toggling screens for online play.
It wasn't that he was toggling, lots of players do that. if you're distracted buy something other than the chess game you're playing, statistically your move quality will go down. In this case the quality of his moves went up after toggling screens.
Not me. When I toggle screens it's to convince my brain to go from convergent thinking to divergent thinking in order to be more creative. I think making a broad claim that performance goes down is only going to be true for those that do it without care.
@@Marzaries stop thinking b.s.😆😆😆
Damn, Your Comment got Plenty of Likes
within Seconds of Posting. 😅
That's very interesting! Good point
@@Marzaries "Not me. When I toggle screens its to convince my brain to go from convergent thinking to divergent thinking in order to be more creative." What a load of bs. You are telling me that you are getting better results by doing diferent things at the same time? You are probably another stockfish type of person i can tell.
I believe Ben until I watch Naka, then I'll believe Naka until I watch Chessbrah, now after watching Ben I believe Ben again, I wish I could think for myself. 🤔
We live in an age of smart phones and stupid people.
Bit of an idiot then aren't you
The problem with Ben is that he either thinks that he is smarter than he is or he thinks others are less smart than they truly are. Edit: I still love you Ben
Great replies! I already love this thread!
I wish Ben could think so I don't have to think for myself.
Finegold says they didn't know about the cheating until recently. That is wrong. The report clearly states that Niemann admitted to cheating in 2020 after they confronted him. They just didn't publicize this until recently because of Niemann's lies about what happened.
Page 3: "Hans admitted to cheating in chess games on our site as recently as 2020 after our cheating-detection software and team uncovered suspicious play."
@@SidV101 and also at the bottom of page 5 where they say Hans confessed in a private phone call with Danny.
All the Hans Stans are very bad at reading comprehension.
From that quote my understanding is that he has been cheating since 2020, not that he confessed in 2020
@@nousagi1154 you have excellent reading comprehension. That said, my reading of it is corroborated by another quote from earlier on page 3: "after we had removed him from playing on our site in 2020."
@@SidV101 in case you are not being sarcastic, thank you for the clarification
If you read the report you see where they say they planned to deal with Hans removal from the CGC privately in messages sent directly to him but he brought his disinvite from the CGC while explaining his issue after the Magnus incident. He therefore forced them to come public with the findings they had already shared with him, requiring him to explain before they could let him participate at CGC. This nuance is very important to understand.
Yeah Ben didn't read the report. They never said this was new cheating they uncovered this was all the stuff they banned him for but they released it in response to Hans lying in the interview.
Fartgold is not a man of nuance
Fatgold doesn’t actually learn all the facts he just shoots from the hip
@@lundek Salty Hikki LB Fanboy Spotted. 😂
And GM finegold clearly didn’t understand it or see it 🤔😂🥴… They always knew Hans was cheating and only released and reviewed the previously complied data because of Hans saying he didn’t cheat in money tournaments and only 2 times 🥴🤔🧐! At least YOU were paying attention, unlike FineGold apparently 🥴
After 2020, Hans started using a seperate computer...
All computers are separate.
So much for chesscom anticheater algorithms. You are admitting chesscom is run by idiots?
@@yzfool6639 He meant a separate computer to use an engine from the one he plays the game in
There's probably more to it than just that, because the cheating detection looks at a lot of metrics, but yes, I agree he probably just started cheating smarter after the reprimand (EG only using assistance on certain moves, not using it every game, etc.).
Or maybe he stopped cheating and Magnus is just being paranoid.
I know more about this drama than I do about chess
I know more about this than I do about Amber Heard
@@daviddean707 I know more about amber heard than I do about my father
Why is no one talking about the fact that he joined Hustlers University 2 weeks prior to beating Magnus. Just saying... He might have learned something from the Top G.
Proof?
@@holctomaz2562 critcal thinking brother
@@holctomaz2562 I do need proof as well
I respect Hans if he did cheat.
But either way he is on the sigma grindset. A true hustler. An inspiration.
Best $49.99 he ever spent 🤣
Cheating over a hundred times for years in Money games is not like stealing candy, it's an addiction. Addictions like that get worse, not better
Wow, it must be awesome to deal in absolutes with that ease... even more if those absolutes are a total exageration of what the paper says...
Burn the witch!!
Yeah, I didn't think the analogy was very good, but his logic stands up in terms of risk avoidance. Cheating at Sinquefield is not as easy as checking another browser and might be a profound deterrent... not because that form of cheating is morally worse (it isn't) but because it is significantly more dangerous.
@@mikebaker2436 It's in another league entirely... from one with basically no risk, to a career terminating another.
Besides, if he cheats OTB, how comes he doesn't win any tournament? And why he would choose to do so in a huge tourney, under the biggest scrutiny, against the WC, and playing Blacks? It makes zero sense
But people are like piranhas, they just enter frenzy at the smell of blood and their brains disconect :D
Well, the problem is Hans confessed he needed to cheat online to raise his rating quickly for financial gain
He then proceeded to "stop" cheating and then went through the fastest ELO rise in history over the board
I mean . . .
Good take
to be fair, I've heard a lot of stories of getting rapid improvement through "airbagging", or playing above your rank
I doubt this is what happened, but if he started airbagging online and getting lots of super-GM games where he stopped cheating once he hit the rank (and collected the prize money), getting knocked around like that could be a huge benefit to your practice
Still kinda shitty to do it for the money, which raises suspicion for OTB (a bit more than it was already), but not the most inexplicable thing ever
You'd have to be Ben Finegold to not connect the dots
@@meiliyinhua7486 Yeah, I think that's basically what his defense is insinuating. Problem is, you might rapidly improve, but enough to make your meteoric rise that breaks every record of the greatest players of all time? When your opponents are all GMs?
If he truly had that level of genius in him, he did himself and the chess world a brutal disservice by cheating for any reason
It is not the fastest rise in ELO in history when you look at the amount of games played. Typical GMs play like a 100 games a year, Hans played 382 in 2 years. If you average his rating gain per game played, he's anything but the fastest rising player in history, he was just jamming in twice the amount of games than anyone else.
Magnus Carlsen for example went from 2484 to 2710 in 355 games, Alireza did it in 319 games etc etc, the difference is they played those games over 3-4 years instead of in 2. All the prodigies performed much better than Hans on average.
Doesn’t seem like Ben read the article or the report. Just a regurgitation of his video from yesterday. There were four points in the report, Ben mostly drones on about one of them and even misses the rationale behind that point.
So what part of his opinion do you specifically disagree with? Timestamps would be helpful. I think many people are being lazy and disregarding Ben's take merely because they dislike it, and rationalize that dismissal with the paper thin "oh he clearly just didn't read the report" without any explanation of what information was allegedly missed and how that effected Ben's analysis.
Ben doesn't disagree with the meat of the report. Ben's major contention has nothing to do with what is in the report.
They did NOT say 'they never spoke to Magnus'
They only make a few very specific claims about what was not said.
E.g; Magnus never asked us to ban Hans and was not aware that we were going to ban him.
I think it's clear that they were in contact with Magnus about this topic in the interim between FTX cup and Sinquefield cup leading to the drastically different behaviour from Magnus at the two events.
Yeah, Ben clearly didn't read the report, just articles about the report. I'm really disappointed because he's usually better than that.
I believe the report also mentioned other player's objections even before the Magnus incident.
These facts are more accurate than what Ben said here, but I still believe Ben about reading most and skimming some of the report. I think this is a case of Ben misinterpreting or misremembering what he read.
@@jacobscott1527 Exactly. lazy Ben
Not true - they explicitly said that they didn't communicate about cheaters with Magnus, and Mr. Carlsen "is and has completely acted 100% on his own knowledge (not sure where he got it!)"
What I can't understand about this whole situation is the separation of OTB cheating and online cheating. Like if you cheat in rated and prized games online how can anyone just say "well there's no proof he cheated OTB so let's just keep inviting him to OTB events". This is clearly an unethical individual and FIDE and USCF should part ways with him regardless of proof of OTB cheating.
The players che cheated out of rating and money online are the same players he's going to be sitting across from at an OTB event. And nobody sees the issue with this? If they allow him to compete OTB that's a total slap in the face of other GMs and chess in general.
Plenty of people see this. I think most serious chess players are not comfortable with him cheating (regardless of those noise). He's going to have a hard time having otb tournaments accepting him now. Or they will be breakaway events where a lot of big players will simply not go
Many top GMs have cheated online, accordong to the same report . I get what you are saying , but my problem is, why did magnus accuse Hans of cheating OTB when he does not have any evidence ? Two are separate in the sense, Hans did not cheat OTB.
Yes its unethical but I still don't understand why magnus left the tournament and all.
Yes this is what I don;t get at all. I don;t really care if he cheated otb or not. If you make it a habit to cheat online, and lie about it repeatedly, and you expect no one to call you out on that when you play otb? Especially when it is nearly impossible to prove if he cheated otb, it's kinda irrelevant.
Plus, I barely see anyone claim that Niemann cheated against Carlsen. Claiming that just seems a strawman argument.
Because there is no Evidence of over the board cheating and his games are clean ! It’s also harder to cheat OTB.
@@tajneeley his games aren't really clean in person. You just can't prove he cheated OTB. But my original point still stands.
I love how every photo of Hans now is him with his hands in the Ancient Aliens Meme position.
Goes with the haircut
@@parazitkolol I mean... you're not wrong.
Chess is like the pyramids... it speaks for itself.
Ben is like a cross between Christopher Walken and Peter Griffin.
Lmao. Underrated comment
Nah, he's žižek
And the apparently kid 😂
Yeah, I don't see Ben doing this ... ua-cam.com/video/wCDIYvFmgW8/v-deo.html ...
Ben is like a cross between Rufus and Dufus.
It seems titled players like IMs or GMs get so many chances when it comes to cheating online its very weird.
Too many people cheat online. It's common. Ben said that he thinks 25%-20% of IM's and GM's have cheated.
I don't think that's true, but I think that a lot of IM's and GM's have dabbled in cheating online.
@@sylvesteruchia5263 Agreed. I think it's less than 20-25%, but more than most people used to believe.
Is it weird... or is it business?
@@mikebaker2436 If they are earning $, then it's clearly business. Perhaps weird business?
@@markdierker4292 It is in the sites best commercial interest to have big title players (especially streamers) using the site. I am not sure there is actually an incentive for fair play on chess websites. There is an incentive for the appearance of fair play. This is why top players get so many chances, rehabilitation, and roads back to cash tournaments.
"I haven't read the report. let me tell you where its wrong."
Thoroughly. He obviously has read the important bits. In fact, he explains that in the vid. Don't be facetious.
They revealed around 10 other GM's have been caught and have confessed. How many were caught and did not 'confess' ? How many IM FM and CM have they caught cheating ?
Sounds to me like they have a lot of cheating going on.
They actually talked about this a while back, they said they banned ~1000 accounts associated with titled players last year
@@okfinn1 wow. If they had enough proof to ban 1000, evem more must be cheating and getting away with it. Its nuts.
Geez. This is like the cycling scandal. First, Lance Armstrong is caught, then, it’s found that many of the top guys were doing it. How do you legitimize a sport after that.
"Sounds to me like they have a lot of cheating going on." You cant prevent people attempting to cheat, but you can prevent people from cheating on your site. You should look at the numbers, they have banned ALOT of people every year.
@@doroza2lol but why only name Hans publically? And do a 72 page report on him? When they themselves have confirmed that many other GM have cheated ?
To me, cheating in serious online events is almost exactly the same as cheating OTB. It's about someone's intention and character. If someone has attempted cheating in such online event, then it must have crossed his mind to cheat OTB. The only barriers for cheating OTB are
1. Is it too risky? (OTB cheating is definitely much more risky than online)
2. Is it too hard? (again, OTB cheating is clearly more difficult than online, probably require a second person to help you)
where is your proof?
"To me, cheating in serious online events is almost exactly the same as cheating OTB."
Of course it is. Either way, it's stealing. I am stunned that there are actually people defending Hans by saying, "Oh, but there's no proof he cheated over the board." As if cheating online was okay. Ffs.
Technically it doesn't require other person since you can have device on your person that will send signals based on your own inputs. It is harder but I can imagine if someone is bent on cheating he is ready to do it hard way to. For instance in one of your shoes you have device that has stockfish database on it and it will send you best move by some sort of code (morse or similar) and you use some way to send coded signal to the device, lets say by your toe. Not easy but once practiced it would be doable.
I remember when Kasparov was playing Deep Blue, I kind of felt at that time the future of chess is not bright, and nowdays we have software that is not possible to beat.
@@EugenIustin Proof for what? he never made an accusation against anyone
@@dandeliondown7920 I agree. They conflate random online games with paid online events. Cheating on online events is no different than otb
A friend of mine this past weekend was considering the possibility that Hans is using some sort of Neurolink or connected contact, and that a group connected to Hans is testing the technology for use in other environments. This has been my favourite take so far because it’s even funnier/crazier than the beads theory.
He got a magic wand that tells him what to do
@@thinkerbabam5540 lol
"Hans" is actually 5 clones, bred in a lab, who neurologically combine the computing power of 5 brains to telepathically make engine moves. "Hans" is actually a model Genetic Neuro-Human Hybrid with enhanced frontal lobe synapsis and modified electromagnetic perception. The "Niemann Project" was created in the 1990s in top secret CIA research facilities in order to beat the current World Champion Garry Kasparov. Maybe you should get your theories straight
Maybe he's using the beads just for pleasure.
Could neurolink get pass metal detectors?
Ben 'I glanced at the report and I know everything because I watched a family guy episode in 1950' Finegold
Pay for Diamond, Platinum and Gold
Memberships and get Matched up
with Cheaters. Seems to be a Great
Business Idea. 😂👍🏽
Ben you have an incredibly logical take. Here is a guy that has depended on a computer for his crucial years in chess development but in the the last 2 years had a divine encounter with God and has the most lucrative chess improvement in chess history. I love how you make a caricature calling everyone stupid to cover for your own impetuous.
I don't think Hans stopped cheating after 2020, certainly not online. I think he took his private reprimands and second chances as a message that he need to cheat *smarter*.
IE, the website looks at tabbing activity compared to the quality of moves, so you could bypass that control entirely by simply copying the match on a second laptop with an engine to recommend the best counterplay.
It looks at a lot more than that. Perhaps that’s one out of 100 variables they look at. He’s not really “cheating smarter” by doing that. He just not being a “stupid cheater.”
Okay so you believe that Hans is a cheater without any evidence. Thank you for your opinion.
I believe you're the smartest cheater ever, since Chesscom never even found out you cheat :)
Can't prove me wrong
@@mookosh The dude is a proven and self-admitted cheater. The fuck are you on about mate? No evidence? Did you somehow miss the 72 page report on Hans' cheating?
@@AliRadicali 72 pages that say absolutely nothing.
You should think about that because you keep typing absolutely nothing.
Innocent until proven guilty is what the reply was saying to you.
Hope a woman close to you never makes an accusation against you that you can’t defend yourself from. Maybe you’ll have more sympathy for hans after though.
Hans didn’t cheat against magnus in the sinquefield cup.
@@kejada He was found guilty of cheating in over a 100 games.
I did not claim he cheated in the Sinquefield cup.
How can you accuse me of "typing absolutely nothing" when you clearly can't read?
This is very thoughtful! However, I don't think it's as weird as Ben says that Hans would cheat in a high stakes game, just because he may not have cheated for 2 years. Though we don't have evidence, it is possible that he started cheating more carefully in the last two years - or maybe he stopped.
Ben does not believe that Hans stopped cheating 2 years ago. He states that here 2:40.
Have you gotten your sixth booster yet?
We seem to be assuming Hans isn’t cheating simply because he hasn’t been caught. That’s Ben’s argument here, and it seems to be a bad one. How do we know that? Yes, we don’t have direct evidence that he cheated against Magnus, but that seems to be where Ben’s thinking stops.
The fact is Hans has a long history of cheating, and he’s lied about it multiple times. He also got away with it for a long time. Those things should make you very suspicious, especially when his rise in strength is statistically extraordinary, better than Bobby Fischer. But Ben ignores all of this.
Personally, when Magnus says the game was strange, and Hans plays in a very strange way, I take that seriously. Magnus has lost games to heaps of people who are weaker than him and he’s never accused them of cheating. Again, Ben ignores this.
Now, none of this proves he cheated in the Singfield Cup, but what did we think is more likely?
this is so fucking stupid. "It is possible that he started cheating more carefully," get evidence you moron. Fuck, the people that think he cheated is magnus, only magnus.
But that's the whole point. Whether he cheated or not is immaterial. If you assert that he cheated, you should be able to back it up. If you can't, you should keep your mouth shut.
Speaking of Rush, Is Ben Finegold like the Rush Limbaugh of the Chess world
Maybe he didn’t stop cheating online in 2020, he just changed the method of cheating to make it more sophisticated. Maybe he started employing his OTB cheat tool in the online games. If it works OTB it definitely works online.
you could practice online with your otb system too
"Maybe he started employing his OTB cheat tool in online games."
This makes no sense. You need a "device" to cheat OTB because you physically need a way to interact with an engine without anyone seeing you do it.
In online chess there's no need to use a device to discretely consult an engine. You can literally take your phone out of your pocket and no one would know in the moment.
and maybe you are really determined in burning the witch
just maybe...
why does this man look like Zizek if Zizek was handsome
😂
If Ben Finegold is handsome I’m a supermodel
I’ve only watched 10 minutes and “like that son” has been used 6 times.
Incredible: report convinces half the internet hans is definitely a cheater and convinces the other half he's innocent!
The guilty camp is a lot more than half
@@chesscomsupport8689 if by "more than half" you mean "less than half" then I agree
@@chesscomsupport8689 You either believe he cheated or that he didn't that's 50-50
The only ones who think he is innocent are the ones who are to proud to admit they were wrong to begin with. Ben is the leader in that team. Embarrasing. Hans is a cheater. Magnus did the right thing and called it out because the orgs didnt do anything about it. Simple.
@@Simon-gq8wn The only ones who think he is guilty are jealous M0R0Ns like you
Sounds like you didn’t read the report, esp the messages between Hans and Danny.
It’s my understanding that Hans went under greater scrutiny after this fiasco. I don’t think discovering cheating is as trivial an event as you make it seem. Pls correct me If I’m wrong
Absolutely! They likely have many more cases where they suspect cheating but it’s hard to say that if you’re not 100% certain.
Read the report before talking on it, they literally answer most of your questions
The part that beggars belief with all this (imo) is that somehow Hans cheated for x years and improved his rating by doing so, and then, what, he stopped cheating in 2020 and since then his rating improved faster than any other player in history, without cheating? It doesn't make sense. If anything it suggests that he engaged in MORE cheating after 2020, this time OTB. the report said he improved something like 180 rating points in a year, AFTER supposedly stopping cheating.
It just doesn't add up for me. Maybe we will never know because finding OTB evidence retroactively might be impossible, but it is just pretty suspicious anyway.
The report is just dumb and it doesn't account for the amount of games played. Hans played 382 otb games in 2 years, which is simply unheard of. Every other super gm reached 2700 in far less games played than Hans did, they just were playing half as much, so it took them longer. Alireza took only 319 games to go from high 2400 to 2700, so he was performing 30% better than Hans, the difference is only in the time it took to play those games.
Conveniently leave out the number of games played for that rating increase.
@@obsolete959 fair point.
Wikipedia says Hans was a student of yours. Is that true?
Wikipedia 😂 😂 😂
In a previous stream Ben talked about Hans going to one of his chess camps when he was younger. And that Hans was a bit of a pain to teach.
@@The50clockHero I've seen Ben's patience with some real brats over the years... so that it saying something. 😅
great video, TY
After reading the report myself and then watching this video, I can only assume you've skimmed over a lot more of it than you said at the beginning of the video.
Finegold clearly didn't the report.
Yeah this is embarrassing. Can't believe I used to watch this guy. Doubling down once again over something so obvious by now
what does it say that contradicts with what Ben said?
@@michaelchung1526 what part are you claiming he missed?
@@carmangreenway what critical component of the report did he miss as to make his opinion "embarrassing?"
Meanwhile, Hans won his first game in the U.S. Open.
Is it possible that hes kind of figured out how the cheat detection works after cheating and getting caught so many times that hes worked out how to beat it? Idk how they determine someone cheats or not. Maybe its a certain percentage of engine moves or moves in certain situations. But if hes cheating and says okay well if i make these moves and its not what the engine suggests but its also not completely losing i can avoid the cheat detection for these few moves but still hold my advantage.
What you’re positing is that Hans by himself is smarter than an entire team of perhaps 100+ high level employees whose only job in life is to catch the cheaters. Plus they have all the programs and software to analyze millions of games to catch cheaters. Not sure how one kid can do all that
@@ObiAmajoyiSrMD not exactly. The cheating system they used is based off computer engines and analysis. If you know how those systems work then you can manipulate around it. Im not saying thats whats happening. Im asking if thats possible.
@@eYeCeD7 you essentially are saying what I said. How can one person know exactly all the stats and intel used to determine cheating when that one person doesn’t have access to the millions of games that were used to study cheating, nor do they know the results of those studies? And it’s 100+ employees working with this data as their careers. How a 17-19yr old kid can do all that has not been explained.
@@ObiAmajoyiSrMD a strong player could cheat once or twice a game in critical positions and that would be essentially impossible to detect. There's just no way to say any single move was an engine line. It's really not that hard to beat automated cheat detection, especially if you're a strong player.
Online or OTB?
This Hans PR guy is good.
I like how in all of these videos you literally say exactly the same thing over and over using as direct language as possible and yet, the comments and chat are still full of ding-dongs that just cannot comprehend having an even vaguely nuanced opinion.
I feel like some of them have also never learned what sarcasm and irony sounds like. Been postulates absurdist positions to illustrate the fallacious reasoning of what people are claiming and then states his clear opinion... and then this chat is full of people taking the absurdist strawman as Ben's opinion. That has to be annoying to put up with.
To me, the present day lying Hans did in that Sinquefield interview about the details of his past cheating is the biggest red flag of this situation. If he is truly repentant, and is no longer breaking the rules, why still have the mentality that he needs to hide something? I agree that it's not iron clad proof of anything, but surely it's fishy behaviour at best.
Cant wait for ben to tell me what to think
because ben has been telling shit worth of nothing at all?
@@sharklite3316 nope bens right!
@@sharklite3316 bens the best ✊
@12:30 He may have been 'stream sniping', more so than looking at an engine on a second screen though. The screen toggling doesn't reveal where he got the advantage from when doing this. Maybe he explicitly never did this with Hikaru, because he would know fairly quickly Hans is stream sniping? Just food for thought, not saying that's the explanation.
Shills are panicking
You should read the article before commenting. It answers a lot of your questions.
Ben can't read
His questions are rhetorical ones.
Story by GM J.H. Donner: during a tournament (1970's) a GM falls asleep while browsing through his opening book (paper version). The book drops on the floor, face down at some random page. The GM wakes up, picks-up the book, looks at the current page, and detects an error in the opening book. He double checks using his chess board and indeed: the opening book has an error. The next morning, his opponent plays that very opening, and plays according to the book (and his opponent loses the game).
Just imagine, Hans Niemann claims he fell asleep on his keyboard, and some random obscure sideline of some opening was selected in his opening book (digital version). He studies that very sideline thoroughly and the next day his opponent plays that very opening and that very sideline.
Who would believe Hans Niemann!?
You make it sound like that never happens.
Chesscom kept all these cheating under wraps for all these years then place themselves on the moral high-ground by saying Hans did not correctly state the extent of his cheating.
All of the parties in this drama are not without fault.
Yeah I think they tried to help him out cause he was still a minor and they didn't want to treat him too harshly. It's very apparent from Denny's messages that he wanted to give Hans every opportunity to go back tô the right path.
No evidence he cheated? So you support that his performance in the OTB is the best chess player to play. You don’t agree with Magnus of not thinking of key moment during the OTB?
Ben did you use to work front counter at the Stage Delicatessen at 54th and 7th back in the early 90s? I swear you look so familiar.
Not victimless. The integrity of chess is the victim.
I mean... I know alot of useless chess history... the integrity of chess was far from pristine long before Hans was even born.
Terrible take. "The integrity of chess" is an abstract concept, not a person. Abstract concepts are not capable of suffering and therefore cannot be victims.
Yeah sorry, that won't hold up in court. Victimless crime.
Every GM who didn't get invited to every tournament that Hans was invited to is also a victim.
It's not that Hans didn't cheat in the last two years, it's just that he's become smarter about it (thanks of lots of experience in the field) and he isn't doing it as blatantly as before, therefore it's harder to bring newer games as evidence. Or he did stop cheating for real, but does it matter after being caught cheating a hundred of times?
He obviously cheated against Magnus based on his post game interview. And now he's scared to do one now because he would be found out not understanding his own moves again/
any evidence of that, mr anon from the internet?
@@ncs9753 You can't give someone the death penalty based on such 'reasoning'.
what does it mean when Ben says 'everybody is doing it' in regards to cheating online?
Former prosecutor here. The report is basically conjecture, speculation and innuendo.
Yes but that is the problem and the cheaters know it. Legal burden of proof doesn’t necessarily match reality. The thing that kills it for me is he went 0-9 in Miami a month prior and recently he has played so well.
@@MF-fg3lj Well said
@@MF-fg3lj he won games in Miami, including with black against Magnus; what you are referring to are match sets which he didn’t win. Nevertheless, he is set to play for the US title and he can prove whether he is really good or not there. Caruana picked him as a dark horse to actually take the US title.
Ok "former prosecutor," if you're so confident why don't you take them to court?
@@Nippleless_Cage a case like this would cost about $200,000 to do. Serious civil suits are for rich people (read Johnny Depp).
If only he had NordVPN
It's entirely possible their cheating detection has improved over a couple years and they re-ran their analysis on his games recently.
but the thing is Hans got caught 3 years ago so he gave up on that method of cheating. But perfectly possible he simply switched to another method that wasn't caught, after trying out all those times that failed. Likely, even.
Rewatching this now, 7 months later, I wish I could watch Hans interview Alejandro Ramirez
Uhhh....... they responded not because of magnus? They responded because hans statement said he only cheated 2 times which contradicted their records?
Hans didn’t say he only cheated two times… He said he cheated in two timeframes. The lie he told was that he didn’t cheat in any tournaments and on stream. :/ People just open their mouths and let non-sense come out.
@@jasonxoc and also that he only cheated in unranked games.
@@Singsongpingpong Oh I’m not saying he didn’t lie. You should also know that lost a lot of those games he was “likely to be cheating” in.
@@jasonxoc yup, as many GMs have said, people who cheat may not cheat the whole game, but maybe once or twice in key critical moves. Could be he cheated in a critical move, but still got outplayed after that. Could be, nobody knows.
But I watched this video and... theres a lot of things which are incorrect. Thats what I was pointing out. Not hans, but ben
His online cheating can't be argued against, it happened. For OTB they need stricter pregame security screening and same during the games. If Hans still plays at his level during OTB with strict monitoring then he really is at that level.
Well, they metal detector wanded his ass today, so they are taking things pretty seriously.
Honestly I'm not convinced they do need stricter security screening than what's going on right now. I think the wand + broadcast delay (plus apparently they're doing like RFI screening too) is enough.
Many people "think we need tighter security" because they're just dead convinced that Hans is cheating OTB, and therefore we need greater OTB security until we can finally catch him. These people will not even begin to entertain the idea that perhaps Hans did not in fact cheat OTB (which ironically is precisely what the evidence suggests: no OTB cheating).
@@NihilHS I agree that we can't go rediculous with the security measures, otherwise you'll end up with literal cavity searches. We all know it wouldn't end at just Chess either. If people are going to anal bead lengths or implanted chips to cheat, there is really nothing reasonable that can be done.
Trying to gain a competitive edge has happened forever. The question is if people are willing to risk everything and live with that on their conscience.
5:10 the company has clearly stated that they knew the details about Hans cheating years ago. one could read the appendices to see that confirmed (email exchange)
7:20 that point is explained in the report in some detail
[edited based on feedback]
If you go back to 4:30 and listen to the context you will see that Finegold agrees with you. 5:10 is the absurdist position that Finegold is presenting as implausible. He specifically says he knows the site was aware of cheating in 2020. He actually says so twice in under 1 minute of speaking.
@@mikebaker2436 OK, thanks for the correction. Always happy to be corrected when I'm wrong. original post is now edited.
So was it necessary to have a chessboard on screen the whole time? Lol
I know this is a twitch clip but they could have done a little editing for this video.
Still best take. Hints on all the important points and is consistent with what should be the barrier to clear to pove someone cheated.
Ben doesnt miss 😂😂
Okay, so let's say Hans did not cheat against Magnus recently.
The point is that he cheated his way up to challenge Magnus, and may have never gotten to where he is right now without cheating...I guess we will never know.
You can't work your way up to play in big OTB tourneys only by online results.
"candy bar thief = bank robber" 😂🤣
I learned an important lesson: "Things ARE LIKE THAT, SON! 🤞"
Nothing new really. No OTB evidence, no online cheating after Aug 2020 (although ~100 online games before Aug 2020). This report in fact makes Hans' no cheating after Aug 2020 story more plausible.
right
Hans have cheated 100 times is enough for a lifetime ban. Nice to see that kid getting banned.
And? At 100 games he should just be banned from all chess period.
Did you just ignore the part where he cheated in 3 prize events in 2020 (he was 17) that alone should get him fked
It’s important to go back in time to see all cheating behavior precedents that may contribute to the investigations. It’s not about evidence against Magnus, it’s about giving Fide elements to ban cheaters for life and for good, regardless of the format
I personally would hate to see fide partner with chess come after they've shown how corrupt they are.
what are you exactly trying to say?
This whole cheating scandal shows us what happens if Carlsen literally does care. :D
This is so true
This is assuming the expression, once a cheater always a cheater dosent hold true. Which it does.
Is this assertion that because he cheated in an online game once, he necessarily has cheated in all of his other games including the game against Magnus? How about instead of relying on platitudes we look at and examine direct evidence like reasonable adults?
Imo if you're a prolific cheater online you shouldn't get the luxury of playing OTB against the greatest in the world. You got to that position likely from cheating to prominence, how's that fair?
Who cares. He beat Magnus. Clearly he is better than Magnus. It would be a shame if Magnus never had an opportunity to play the GOAT.
@@kingstarscream3807 yeah... the GOAT who had to cheat to get where he is now, if he really was the GOAT, why all the cheating? He's already lied about how many times he has cheated, even how many times he was CAUGHT cheating, there is literally no reason to trust anything that comes out of Hans' mouth until he proves there is a shred of integrity left within him.
And, they did catch him, they did ban him? They even show the conversations of him being banned, him appealing to join cash tourneys and chesscom rejecting?
Why is ben saying they didnt catch him and chesscom didnt know?
And the tourney is 1million dollars in prize? In light of all his cheating, they dont feel comfortable for him to play. Is that a hard stance to take? The stakes are high. With this much coming to light, im pretty sure a lot of GMs are also not comfortable playing with hans, especially with a prize pool that big.
It’s all about protecting the product.
I still like the idea that one of Magnus's team leaked the opening to Hans.
That would be cooler
Then you have terrible and stupid taste
If you play someone who you think might cheat, it affects your game. Hans benefitted in this way in the Sinquefield Cup game, regardless of whether he cheated in that game.
Ben never addresses this aspect, other than to call Magnus "a baby".
Does he need to address every single point? That much was pretty obvious
@@ObiAmajoyiSrMD He has only ever addressed (or rather clung to) ONE point, ie that there is no hard evidence. All the rest is waffle, rehashed ad nauseam.
Well he was right. Magnus is a baby.
@@kingstarscream3807 But everyone (else) knows he's not.
Super weird watching an actual GM with a highly permissive attitude to cheating. Is this normal in chess?
Hans got the fastest OTB improvement rate of all time. Not worth mentioning that, Ben?
Being good at chess isn't evidence.
@@mookosh when you’re a self confessed cheater it is.
@@mookosh the chess speaks for itself
@@wakeuptotheonepartyoverlor8797 do you have anything to prove he cheated OTB?
and no, online doesn't count
@@mookosh Yeah, I'm suppose to believe that this person who had to cheat online to "play better players (in his own words)" has improved at the game faster than Bobby Fischer and Magnus. Where there is footage of Magnus playing GMs as a kid where he could hardly reach the pieces on the board. Give me a break... Niemann is a disgrace to chess and needs to be banned from any competitive chess.
Why should I think while Ben thinks for me ?
Go Ben
that is the mindset of Ben fans, its seems.
@@user-cr7kf7st1x Logic and reasoning > feelings.
@@dannygjk Individuality>Conformity
@@user-cr7kf7st1x Logic and reasoning > individuality.
@@dannygjk you have no logic and reasoning if you accept everything someone says as doctrine
It's not that he didn't cheat post-2020, it's that he didn't get caught post-2020. I'm not taking his word for it.
Conflict of Interest
Given the Business Dealings between
the Website and Magnus. 😊👍🏽
I have a controversial angle. He stopped cheating 2 years ago everywhere and he got better actually using his brain.
That shouldn't even be controversial. All the evidence points to this exact scenario.
@@dirtymondo so naive im actually doubting its ment outside of a joke
@@dirtymondo It's just that someone in the cheating clique suddenly going on the steepest upward trajectory ever seen to become the best player of all time - is odd.
@@Nashy119 im not denying its odd but is completely possible and the burden of proof is not on Hans, its on Magnus
Actually, i think the burden is on Hans. Not with respect to the Carlsen allegation, but in rebuilding his colleagues trust.
You cannot toggle between screens during Bullet Games
There is strong evidence that Hans has engaged in OTB cheating. Either that or he's head and shoulders above all GMs--including greats like Fischer and Carlsen--in terms of his rise between ages 11 and 19. Computer move matching also raises eyebrows... Analysis of the scandal by FM Yosha Iglesias is compelling: definitely look into her coverage if you haven't already.
Did you read the report?
Ben you admit that you are surprised that Hans stopped cheating in 2020.
But then you point out that Hans got caught because he was dumb and cheating on the same computer (switching tabs).
I was surprised you didn’t make the logical connection that Hans just got better at cheating. Or do you really think he has not cheated since?
You misunderstood GM Ben F. You apparently got confused by the style he uses sometimes when he explains something.
@@dannygjk I don’t think so. If so, please explain.
@@joelpenley9791 He often lays out a hypothetical situation, (which he doesn't believe), then at the end ties it up in such a way that makes it sound ridiculous. It's a common thing in English. I suspect it also exists in other languages. The point is it can be confusing to some people especially if English is not their first language because at first it sounds like he believes the situation he is describing. However he is setting up a hypothetical situation.
@@dannygjk I didn’t hear a hypothetical for what I am talking about. Can you give a time stamp or direct quote?
@@joelpenley9791 He uses that method constantly in his videos.
They note there are 4 other GM's? will their ID's be disclosed? hopefully
They have been. I forget though, where I saw their names.
You're right, I still know nothing, but at least now I can talk a lot longer about all the things I don't know.
The big grey area thing for me is whether the lies weigh into the picture and how much.
1. When I first saw Han's interview I was pretty moved by what felt like authentic emotional expression. The fact that his whole unprompted thing about cheating in money events to be the worst thing ever and he would never do such a thing confuses me a lot.
It makes me wonder whether his emotional display is not authentic. If that's the case it's surprising how well he was able to act the part.
2. Again, a psychological thing, but cheating 100 times even after getting caught suggests a Machiavellian mindset of thinking it's ok to do something if there's no repercussions. In his first offense, he was very regretful and accommodating with Danny.
This is speculation now, but the fact that afterwards he cheated at least 100 times more makes me think his first exchange is not due to being sorry but being scared of repercussions. When he found out that he could do it without consequences, he did it more, and at large scale.
3. Stringing together a premeditated emotional narrative and then putting chesscom on blast despite knowing they're aware of his cheating history seems highly manipulative to me. The first one is understanding how people's feelings work and how to get them to sympathize with him emotionally. The second suggests that that he's willing to step over Danny and chesscom if he thinks they won't do anything about it (though I don't think he expected chesscom to make a reply).
4. Han's explanation was that he made a mistake 3 years ago, regretted it deeply, and since then come clean. The fact that he's been lying isn't helping his narrative of being a morally changed person.
This is hard for me to process since I can't help considering a person's mental framework when trying to piece things together. However, it is obviously not evidence for OTB cheating, so not sure if the whole mental angle of understanding how a person thinks is objectively relevant.
"The fact that his whole unprompted thing about cheating in money events to be the worst thing ever and he would never do such a thing confuses me a lot."
I agree and my optimistic guess is that Hans didn't consider a "qualifier" game to be in the moneyed event yet. I don't know enough about these events to really say, but from the normal definition, you could make the argument that cheating to get into the tournament isn't the same as cheating in the tournament.
Similar to the age part, I think there's a sort of reasonable explanation where he said he cheated when he was 12 and 16, he meant that he cheated for 2 discrete periods of time, one beginning when he was 12, the other beginning when he was 16. The fact that it bled into age 17 might not be important to him from that viewpoint.
I don't know. Clearly this is the optimistic reading of the situation like said already. But I'm willing to give such young people the benefit of the doubt, I mean he's still only 19.
If amidst this shitstorm the own Chesscom, which clearly tries to harm him, admits he has't cheated in the last two years... well, that confirms in my book the guy is trying to redeem himself.
Technicalities about which month he adopted this new no-cheating behaviour are secondary imho
@@jonbbbb Yea agreed. Hope that's the case. Still hard to understand though because the report indicated that he cheated in multiple titled Tuesdays along with the pro chess league which are clearly events with prize money. Don't know why he had to make such a pointed statement about how wrong it is to cheat in money events and that he's never done it. Wish he just left that part out.
Possibly Hans realized in 2020 that chess (that platform, which I may not name, because I get banned) was catching him every single time, and imposing more and more severe penalties, so he decided to tone his cheating down to a level where he would no longer get caught (which might be zero)
I doubt it. In the full report they said that they still catch small and subtle moves. The mentioned that GMs only need 3 or more moves from and engine and that they still catch it.
@@thetechconsultant The site can SAY whatever they want in their own report. Have they ever independently proven that capability?
Is Magnus saying Hans cheated in the exact game in question? Or was he saying something like “everyone at the high levels of chess knows this guy a a cheat. He shouldn’t even be here.” It has come to light that Hans cheated against Nepo and other top GMs. Surely those players were made aware, either officially or otherwise. Surely this was talked about among the top players.
I keep getting recommended Ben Finegold videos. I tried. 1 minute in I can't take this guy.
He's not a cheater, he's a thief $$$
Hans should be in jail, not participating in tournaments.
Once again, Bed right on the money and showing his ability to think logically and cogently. Thanks Ben for being a rational voice in a sea of madness.
I generally love Ben. But he jumped the gun bashing Magnus for withdrawing.
@@koho No way dude Magnus 100% deserves criticism for his actions. And that's not to say Hans is in the right or anything but fact is Magnus quit after an otb game that likely had no cheating and is working with a gigantic private company to get someone blacklisted. We don't need to be accepting of Hans necessarily but Magnus handled it in a less-than-desirable manner. In fact, it was behavior unbecoming of the best chess player in the world.
@@grimblegromblethegnome Knowing what we know now (and Magnus knew then)? You must be joking.
@@koho What do we know now that changes what we knew then? There is still zero evidence of Hans cheating at Sinquefield Cup. Fact remains Magnus lost and quit in the middle of a tournament before any of this stuff came out. Justifying his actions after the fact with evidence unrelated to the game in question makes no logical sense.
something else can be spotify or a youtube browser tab
Chess for me is a gentlemen sport, any cheater older than 15 years old should be banned from any form of chess for at least 5 years
I feel like no one is talking about how it’s possible Hans may have just gotten smarter about cheating after getting caught so it looked like he stopped cheating… after getting caught cheating a certain way it’s not like he would just go back to cheating the same way
Thank you. Also plot twist: Magnus wins all his games from now on via high tech cheating methods as a proof of concept and protest against FIDE. Become the enemy.
Isn't the statistical analysis made by milky chess evidence for over the board cheating? To me if milky didn't botch the numbers that looks pritey compelling. But I have to admit my knowlege of statics doesn't reach a masters degree.
Yes i don't see how you argue against that one. Basically what that analysis said is that Hans plays on average like a 2500, then from time to time Stockfish pops into his head and gives him a god move in critical spots - and apparently a single super move is better than many slightly worse moves. Every other player in history that's 2700, just plays better moves on average, but rarely finds a god move. Hans is just special.
It's a million dollar prize. That's a lot of money up for grabs and they feel he would be willing to cheat to get it. Also he said he hasn't played online. He said he is doing classical focused chess.
Ben, ty for continuing content on the cheat
I don't think anyone but Hans knows for sure. But I'd say this report makes it more likely he cheated than if the report confirmed what he said about only cheating twice. It's evidence he's still not honest about his cheating.
When he said "twice" he didn't mean 2 games!!!
He didnt say he only cheated twice. Did you even watch the inital interview by Hans? He said when he has 12 years old and when he was 16 years old. He understated the amount when he was 16 but he never said that he only cheated twice.
@@insomnia20422 I did. I just rewatched it. I see he didn't say twice. He said in a tournament at 12 and a second time in some random games at 16. I took that to mean twice (not necessarily two games, but two events/matches). So given that I'm not sure the report makes it more or less likely he cheated otb.
The 72 pages report speaks for itself
I think Ben isn't fully considering what the incentives of all parties involved is. Yes the responsability should be on the organizers to prevent cheating and not on the individual players, but they don't have the incentives to do so because it would cost them. So unless someone else brings the issue up (like Magnus did) everything would then stay as it is. Whether Niemann cheated OTB is not the point, he might have, who knows
Blaming organizers for not doing enough in the first place: yaay
Blaming Magnus for speaking up: terrible
Facts, Ben putting blame on everyone but Niemann is getting old.
He needs to be banned from all online play and should be banned over the board for a couple of years.