It's amazing how this man can articulate all of the tiny nuances of Sonic gameplay and explain what makes the games so great or flawed... But still calls the rings "coins". What a legend.
The most funny thing about the Adventure games (especially Adventure 1) for me is, how the spindash is basically just an early version of the boost which was later implemented in Rush and obviously Unleashed, Generations, and so on. There is a portion of the fanbase which just hates on the boost gameplay and wishes to go back to the Adventure style, but...if you actually try to speedrun the Adventure games as FAST as possible, these games basically become early boost games. Again, especially Adventure 1. The spindash in Adventure 1 is so OP, it is VERY similar to the boost, which makes the whole ,,Boost games suck! Give us back the Adventure formula!"-argument really stupid, in my opinion. Obviously, preferences exist...but some people just can't deal with their subjective opinions not being shared by everyone.
Not to mention, in terms of how it's designed, SA2 is practically a boost game when it comes to the level design. Its levels are designed with almost the exact same philosophy as the Boost titles other than the lack of 2D sections, a more reaction-based "soft-QTE" as Pariah describes it philosophy. I guess that's partly why its levels were picked for Frontiers and why they kinda just work the same as the other Boost stages, because the design isn't that different from Boost levels, it's just Sonic's movement system and the physical speed you tend to go at that are different. I'd almost hesitate to even really call it a different formula in terms of design, yeah Sonic's moveset is fairly different and he has the boost move but that's...kinda it. It especially makes you think when you look at what was apparently the development story behind Sonic Unleashed, where it was apparently being created to be the sequel to SA2 (presumably SA3) but they claimed they got to what we had in the final game by just coming up with more ideas and adding more new things to that idea that gradually morphed it into the Daytime Boost gameplay, rather than intentionally doing a complete rework and scrapping everything to make up something entirely new and different out of the blue. And then there's more with that now with the interviews and all leading up to the release of Frontiers, the way they were describing what 3D Sonic has been for the past 20 years was how it was apparently all defined by SA1, the way they talked suggested that they viewed the Adventure and Boost games as kinda the same thing, and just a gradual evolution and transforming of the same core overarching formula that SA1 apparently established, and which apparently was continuing for 20 years until by the time they finished Forces they weren't sure what to do and thought it had grown stale and stagnant and so pivoted to Frontiers' "open zone." It almost makes you wonder if viewing them as radically different things is something largely created by the fanbase or not.
100% agree with your comment. I just want to add that the spindash in Frontiers basically functions as a second boost which doesn't glue you to the ground. It is very similar in concept and execution. Is the Adventure spindash actually THAT different in comparison to the Frontiers spindash? I would argue no. The Frontiers one is just an evolution of the same thing. And the boost is, obviously, really similar, so... @@legoboy7107
@@tadaokou4919 Yeah, it's basically just simplified. Instead of having to span the spindash button to "boost," you just hold the button to achieve what's effectively the same effect but just less awkward and more polished.
From 40 minutes of constructive criticism to the point of ripping it a new asshole, to "dude, this game fucking kicks ass." That was actually funny as hell. Nice 180.
That is the thing with the Sonic series. You can compare each new game to any other game in the same series and say “well this game sucks because it’s not like this other game” all you want, but if you look at most of the games as their own thing and treat them as their own game (like how Sonic Team seems to do whenever they come up with a new idea) then you will find a TON to enjoy. Oddly Sonic Adventure feels like the closest official product to a Classic Sonic game but in 3D, but it is still completely it’s own beast and is awesome in its own right. Obviously, you can always prefer one style of Sonic game over all the others, but I think there’s a lot to appreciate in most Sonic games no matter what the style.
SADX is basically Doom:Sonic Edition. So many great and fun mods and ways to make it tailor made for you. The level editor is extremely easy to use as well. This game has infinite replay value to me.
It's funny how Sonic Team has failed to transition Sonic gameplay into 3D and yet through these failures people discovered new ways to play Sonic Adventure the fun way. And because it is possible to play it the fun way, it is a very fun 3D platformer. I do imagine that there was a lot of chaos inside SEGA. I mean they are not doing too well in the console market, they are practically on the brink of bankruptcy. I mean the fate of SEGA entirely depended on the success of Sonic Adventure. I could be wrong.
The entire time you were criticizing things like the broken spindash or the easily exploitable level design I was just thinking "Yeah, but it's fun". What a plot twist to see you agree
Sadly this isn't the only time a Classic Sonic purist has complained about the ring loss pattern either. Back when Sonic 4 was new, there were a lot of them complaining that the more you got hit, the crazier and faster your rings would scatter in Sonic 4, making it harder and harder to get your rings back. So uh yeah, I guess this comes full circle.
The automated sections are just spectacle yeah but they let you catch a break, and I personally very much need a break from time to time in these levels. In fighting games similarly I think cinematic specials are good cause they give you a moment to think of what to do afterwards. They're annoying in succession but that's obviously not gonna happen in a linear platformer where the set pieces don't repeat. Also why do you assume the shortcuts weren't intended? We're talking about a company that made Super Monkey Ball here. Last thing: if you enjoy 3D platformers with cool movement options you should check out A Hat in Time if you haven't already
I assume a lot of the shortcuts are unintended because Tails can just fly to skip the entirety of Windy Valley. That tells me they did not really realize what these characters could do when designing these levels. Among many other things. Don't overly associate things because they are all Sega games. Sonic Team had nothing to do with Monkey Ball. A Hat in Time is probably my favorite collect-a-thon ever. Though not really for its movement mechanics. Check out a game called Cloudbuilt. That game has sick movement.
I think Developer Intent is overrated anyway, and I also think that a big focus of 3D Sonic games, intended or otherwise - and this is something that clicked into place with *Forces* of all games - is spatial awareness. Just about all of these games have some kind of trick that lets you cover huge distances in a single jump, and at that point the fun of routing is creating a mental map of the level to figure out where you can use the fuckbusted superjump tech to skip. Realizing where and how these levels are connected in 3D space and how you can do the insane thing to skip huge chunks is fun, and I don't even think it's "bad level design" given that everybody's gonna have at least one playthrough where they do it the normal way. Honestly, I'd kinda like to see the series lean into it more and start designing levels to have these skips deliberately built in. I actually think Frontiers is a start here, with the open nature of the open zone platforming and stuff like the roof on the final section of 1-2 - the level with the infamously tight S-rank - begging you to think in terms of "you can skip parts of the level".
btw, omg you are my favorite youtuber now, ive been watching your classic series and lore retrospective, god, where were you? ive been needing this awesome content.
While i disagree and agree with numerous points, the only point that left me scratching my head is the whole "SA1 being nothing like the classics", because imo, i feel the complete opposite. It's the reason i like the classics and SA1 specially and anything after it, i start feeling mixed between liking it and disliking it. And seeing what other people think about the game, i always seen it as praised for it being faithful to the classics in many ways, but disliked for the yank and other problems you mentioned.
You should try playing my physics overhaul mod of SADX called “Better Physics”. It’s a bit (see also: very much) janky, but it makes the game rely more on rolling and stuff.
I have. It's a cool mod. Nice job. But it's still a far cry from ideal. That's just the nature of SA1. Even if we could get immaculate physics, the level design still makes it difficult to really utilize it in the way you'd want. Great job, though!
Banging videos, lad. Been binging this series and whilst I may not always agree, I enjoy hearing yr point of view! Keep slaying, boy. I think the high-velocity-momentum-based-platforming-in-3D nut is a bit harder to crack than you suggest. Playing fangames that try, like Sonic Robo Blast 2 or Sonic Utopia can be quite maddening when that sweet momentum means Sonic sails over a small platform you're trying to jump on from a standstill. There's a seemingly fine line between 'momentum is king' and 'floaty imprecise bullshit'. IMO, the homing attack (and Sonics sticky weird physics in general) is a fine solution, if not perfect and somewhat lazily used. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on various fan efforts to fix Sonics 3D movement! The automation in general is the Adventure games' biggest flaw IMO. Slapping boost pads everywhere and locking u into loops with insane artificial speed just irks me.
I know this video is quite old now but it's still really great. A fantastic deep dive into the mechanics of the game and how different Adventure really is to the Classics. I agree on your point about the homing attack but I think it'd be cool if you elaborated on when you said "there are many other ways they could've implemented an aid for platforming that would've been more interesting". Basically, what would you have done differently to Sonic Team in that regard?
One idea would be to keep the Insta-Shield, but perhaps maybe give it an even bigger hitbox, that way you have more leniency with hitting enemies in 3D but it's still skill-based and not at all automated and still maintains the movement depth.
You're mostly speaking as somebody who's been playing this game for decades. No one who's new to the game is going to break the game with creative spindashing. On the contrary, they're probably going to take the easier paths, and they take much more time, which equals more gameplay.
Almost as if replaying the game and getting better at it will improve the experience as the devs intentionally add nuances and gameplay elements that reward you for your skill 🤯
@@ykgcaramel6515it's not like they intended for skilled players to completely fuck up and exploit the level design using the spam dash and spindash jumps,and any player who notices that the spindash is spammable will keep on spamming,
I thought you would mention it but you didn't end up mentioning it: Tails and Knuckles can actually roll like how you mentioned Sonic can't roll anymore. You can roll as Tails and Knuckles by pressing the spindash button after running. Might be something to look into as a mod for Sonic's gameplay in the future if it's possible. Great video by the way. I have been very frustrated for years with the "Sonic Adventure has not aged well" crowd and have vehemently disagreed with them about one of my favorite games and part of why I've been frustrated about it is a large chunk of people making off-handed negative comments about the game but never articulating why they feel the way they do. But watching your video I don't feel my opinion is being disrespected if that makes sense. I still disagree with that crowd but I respect the different opinion a lot more now that it's been articulated.
honestly this review seems like its coming from someone who has played the game a bajillion times already, knows the shortcuts and strats and is complaining about why they even exist. Judging the game for how unsimilar it is to classic sonic games is so unfair, you can make the same argument for many other games in this generation that made a jump to 3d theres a lot i find wrong in this review but i enjoyed it and it IS your own perspective and experience, which is fine
While the physics and collision detection of this game were janky as hell, this game still managed to have my favorite 3D Sonic. I find the dumb physics fun in their own way and I think it's cool that the level design was as inventive and varied as it was. There's a sense of detail, structure, and variety to the environments that I find missing in just about every 3D game afterwards.
@@DanielFahimi I have the Dreamcast version. It's what I'm referring to in this scenario. The game may have aged worse and worse with each rerelease, but it was always really janky.
@@kyasarintsu4047 It is janky in the Dreamcast version, but it's not janky to the point where it affects your enjoyment in a major way. Of course, Sonic Adventure HAS aged, but could you say that about Ocarina of Time and Mario 64? And I don't know what you mean by 'dumb physics'. Please elaborate.
I think the game is pretty notably glitchy even on Dreamcast. I think it's less "DX made the game super glitchy" as much as it's that "for every glitch they fixed from DC, they added one or two". With the physics, I just think that they're a little floaty and unfaithful, with easy access to huge speed and the ability to hurl yourself out of bounds and across huge gaps. It's really fun to toy with and glitch/trick hunting across all versions of the game that I own (DC, GC, PS3, PC) kept me entertained for quite a while. It's a real level of appeal for me.
@@kyasarintsu4047 I didn't find the game glitchy much at all. For example, Pinball minigame in Casinopolis while not perfect, was perfectly functional. In the DX version, due to the horrific collision detection and physics, the minigame becomes a total chore. And the even if the Dreamcast version isn't very polished, the DX version is FAR glitchier. By the way, although Sonic Adventure does give you instant access to super speed, but it comes with consequences. Not everyone can pull it off. The speed is still earned through skillful play. I don't know where this mentality of "Sonic Adventure HAS to play like the Genesis games for it to be good" really comes from. What's the point of recreating the same gameplay in 3D? Wouldn't it be better in creating a NEW gameplay that was not possible in 2D? Isn't that what Mario 64 did?
As someone who adores SA1, it's really interesting to hear your takes about the game. I think SRB2 is the closest we have to the classic physics in 3D and if you haven't played it already you're doing yourself a disservice.
I've played it. It's great. But also not quite right. It does some things right, but a lot is still off. Level design is pretty close though. Games like Utopia or GT are pretty close to what I would expect physics wise. I do plan on eventually covering fan games as well. Lots of great stuff.
@@Pariah6950 Yeah I get what you mean. Thankfully, SRB2 2.3 is being worked on and lots of momentum physics, slopes, and speed based level design is being experimented with.
Idk how you can say srb2 has similar controls when sonic is an ice skating doomslayer. I've played a load of srb2 and the game could do with less slippery movement imo and more tighter movement. Yeah it feels good to nail the flow of srb2, but it is far from tight controls and way too deep into the momentum based gameplay.
@@DonutSwordsman I think Par seems to prefer committal movements and momentum base physics. He did say in the video before he mentioned spindashing that the control in this game is TOO good
Damn, that dash panel segment got me thinking. I wonder if anyone's put out a mod to remove all the dash panels from every Sonic version of the levels...
I do also have to say. You said you either enjoy it or not depending on how much you like spam dashing? I disagree. I love the game and level design on its own. I do a few spam dash tricks here and there and they are super fun but most of the time i play the level design as intended bc i enjoy it so much. Sonic's campaign anyway. Sonic's story is the best 3d campagin in terms of level design in the whole 3d series imho
@@themissingbits6375 I have watched both parts. He pretty much says its awesome but your enjoyment of the game comes from if you're into spam dashing and breaking the levels. While fun, that is what i disagree with. The level design is awesome as intended as well. I'm literally adressing what he said towards the end of the video. So wtf are you on about?
42:04 i firmly disagree that this particular thing is “objectively bad from a level design perspective”-while i get your point that a lot of these cuts were clearly not intended and that it does hurt the level design, i think any game that truly frees its player can, will, and *should* end up with a lot of emergent stuff like that, and i would much rather take “intended path that you can choose to entirely ignore” over “intended path that the level design and mechanics strictly force you onto” (cough cough SA2), deliberate or not, and i think you’d agree because we both know that is fun as hell and you seem to despise automation just as much as me
Sonic Adventure is no less of a sonic game then Mario 64 is a Mario game. Sonic Adventure is a genuine good/great sonic game. It does some things differently but that’s not a bad thing. You keep saying it fails to be a sonic game, but it doesn’t, it’s a great sonic game. Guess what?, Mario 64 isn’t the same as the 2D Mario games, sometimes you have to change things in 3D. Is Mario 64 somehow not a Mario game? I don’t mind the controls and I have no issues with the level design, it’s not bad even if it’s different. It’s not identical to 2d but I don’t mind It does play like a sonic game, as not all sonic games are the same I also don’t think being able to skip levels is objectively bad It’s not a poor recreation of previous games either, it’s not identical but it’s not bad I can enjoy the game without breaking it. I don’t love the game cause I can break it, I love it cause it has fun levels, gameplay, and the story (even if lacking the same polish that it’s sequel has) is interesting.
Funny you make the Mario 64 comparison. Because yes, I would say Mario 64 is not a Mario game, considering the series up to that point. It plays absolutely nothing like the previous Mario games. It created a new type of Mario game. Same for Breath of the Wild. That is not a Zelda game. It is a new type of game within the series.
@@Pariah6950 Interesting perspective, just because a game isn’t exactly the same as previous games doesn’t mean it’s not a “true/real” entry in the series. Mario 64 is a Mario game given it still feels like one even if it is different. You could argue sub series maybe but still a Mario game As for breath of the wild overall it’s still a Zelda game but it lacks a lot of series staples like proper dungeons, items, etc so while I still think it qualifies it does things very differently for sure and while I enjoyed it, as a Zelda game I think it could have been better.
@@Pariah6950 wow, after reading this reply I completely understand your points slanted towards this game from a new perspective. Since I agree with the Breath of the Wild take. It may redefine what it means for a Zelda game to be a Zelda game but it absolutely is not a Zelda game as we knew them up until that point. People that run to the "it's supposed to be like the original game anyway" defense must have never played the original game either or at least misunderstood how it worked.
32:17 I know it's one of the few examples but that set piece is actually a passivity trap. If you just let the set piece end you'll miss a shortcut you can do by going backwards after you get released from the rollercoaster
Interesting, but one of the things that most people get wrong is that the 3D adaptation of a 2D video game is not a copy and paste of its original deliveries, for example, Mario 64 has little or nothing to do with various faiths. the mechanics of 2d games, is that bad? No, it was excellent, a perfect evolution, although Aonic Adventure was not perfect, it was a good evolution of the Megadrive games, they made a good reinvention, the homing attack is not completely automatic as you say, since you must be at a good distance from the enemy to execute it and if not, it fails, it also did well in transmitting the speed of 2D games, and yes, it is still a reward, it is not a gift at all.
Both the Sonic adventure games is at the time period where video games are just starting to be on 3d like Mario 64. Also the reason why Sonic looks different in the adventures games is because he's supposed to look older than the original games I think.
you should seriously look into Sonic Utopia, it does the faithful transition of, well, everything you mentioned about classic sonic physics, the jumping, the turning, the spinning, WHILE keeping the "parkour breaking complex movement" playground spirit you unlocked in SA1
@@Pariah6950 touche, im just used to big youtubers being a bit more on the "detached" side, especially since you didnt mention the triple trouble and sonic chaos fan remakes *evil grin
i don’t think utopia is that good honestly. the design is way too wide and open, it feels a bit mindless. the controls are smooth but there is just nothing to do, plus no homing reticle.
This is going to be a light response to your video, offering clarification on certain topics and responding to certain arguments in the video. With timestamps put in to give a general idea on what exactly I'm responding to. The floaty jump was added later in development. 7:43 Originally, the falling was supposed to be more closer to the classic games. You would also have the ability to hold down the roll button in the air. And then transfer the momentum from your jump into speed. Since holding the rolling button in the air in the final version causes the mid air momentum cancel. It can be assumed that that mechanic also wasn't present until later in development. 8:08 That is because the homing attack and the jump are supposed to be one and the same. I.E. if the homing attack makes you bounce up in the air, so should the normal jump. Since the homing attack is just a homed-in version of Sonic's normal jump. 8:37 This is moreso a consequence of wanting to give the player better air control. You want the player to land where they want to land. Especially in a 3D space, where, by nature, platforming is more precise than in 2D. This does slightly take away from the momentum aspect of Sonic. Though. (But the mid air momentum cancel was still added later in development.) 8:49 The thing with the Spamdash is that it seems to be a result of the developers messing with the mechanics of the spindash more than anything. We do know that the spindash behaved differently early in development, but we don't know to what extent, or if spamdashing was even possible in early builds. 13:21 Cherrypicked example of something you weren't even supposed to wallrun up to. The reason this doesn't really work is because walls in general have rougher and more basic collision detection than floors. Since you need just enough information for the game to tell that it's a wall. Floor collision is a lot cleaner since Sonic needs to smoothly traverse the areas he's running across. So when you're wallrunning on designated wallrunning areas. The game uses cleaner collision detection, and it works relatively well. If you run down the wall, you gain speed. If you run up the wall, you run slower and eventually fall off. The problem with running on walls that you aren't supposed to run on is that due to the rough collision, the physics engine sort of goes awry and breaks. 15:39 Going through loops, tunnels and all that stuff is 1000% possible in SA1's engine. The only reason automation is used for loops is because it allows the game designers to put special camera angles when going through loops, and the fact that it's just easier to make the player hold forward than rather physically navigate the loop in 3D. Messing around in a weirdly shaped tunnel doesn't really disprove that. 17:30 What those people really mean by that (well, at least me personally.) Is that structurally, the stages are the most similar to the classic games than any of the other 3D games. Encouraging exploration, having multiple pathways and having a certain unique flow to them. 18:14 The spindash pretty much removed the loops role as any sort of speed gate in Sonic 2. You can still roll through loops and set pieces in Adventure. The only thing that was really removed were the slope jumps. 19:06 Springs gave the player much more control In Sonic Jam's Sonic World. Which was a prototype of adventure. So it's pretty safe to assume that springs were less automated in prototype builds for adventure. 20:35 Definitely one of your worst points here. They did this so that you could collect the rings back easier. If they would bounce around like in the 2D games it would be pretty hard to collect them back. Especially in a 3D space. 21:10 The homing attack did actually have a shorter range in earlier builds. Meaning that you would have to be more precise in your aiming. This was changed to be more forgiving later on since homing attack chains didn't really work with the shorter range. Since the developers would have to very carefully position enemies in such a way where the player was guaranteed to hit them. But often times, one of the enemies would be slightly out of the target radius and the player would be sent flying, so the radius for attacking on the homing attack was changed so this wouldn't happen anymore. 24:04 The lightspeed dash was more intended to be an incentive for replaying stages rather than be an entirely in-depth mechanic on its own. You would see a trail of rings in an early level. Have no idea what that's about, come back and replay the level later with the light speed dash. And bam. Now you found out. 26:48 Because they weren't trying to. originally, adventure was supposed to be a follow up to the classics. Using momentum based level design with many twisting pathways. And you can still see a lot of glimpses of that in the final game. But as Sonic himself was being rethought, so were the mechanics and level design: Sonic Adventure, as it currently stands. In the form you are playing it right now, is very much supposed to be distinct from the games that came before it. Regardless of what the original intentions for the project were. 27:36 This one is also pretty dumb. Apparently, the level design doesn't matter because you can do unintended skips to skip it... What? I'd be fine if this was part of a specific point you were trying to get across in the video. But seeing as you supposedly want to analyse the game in full. Talking about and dissecting each part of the game. It's pretty weird to just... Ignore the actual level design, especially since the level design is what definitely pays most homage to the classics, in general structure, it just doesn't really feel like you're giving the game a fair shake on all fronts, by that logic, Mario 64 isn't a good game because you can do unintended glitches and get to bowser without collecting a single star. 28:41 The level design has to be interconnected in that way because these areas are designed for knuckles. And less because the developers are stupid and think the players are stupid. 29:55 Again, I hate how smug you are acting here. It makes you very unlikeable to the audience watching. It's also very stereotypical "game reviewer" way of acting that makes your videos feel very cliché. 30:52 Okay, this thing. There are a lot of stages in SA1 that use dash panels. While some have barely any. I'm gonna count em. Emerald Coast: 48 Windy Valley: 49 Casinopolis: 7 Icecap: 26 Twinkle Park: 11 Speed Highway: 69 (might've missed some) Red Mountain: 4 Sky Deck: 60 Lost World: 2 Final Egg: 28 (Keep in mind also that dash panels often come in groups. Which naturally means an uptick in how many there are in each level.) While yes, Sonic Adventure does have Automation in it. I feel that boiling down SA1 to "shallow automation" when you're not trying to purposefully break the game is purposefully reductive of the actual gameplay. The only setpiece I have any issue is the rollercoaster in Twinkle Park. I have no issue with the whale chase since you can Spamdash your way through it. Which is not only more interactive but also ever so slightly faster than just normally running through the chase. Otherwise, the loops are barely ever longer than 3 seconds. Most of them are literally just a second long. They feel more like small breathers more than anything else. I don't really even notice them when I'm playing, they're that inconsequential. 31:00 I very much disagree with the notion that Sonic Adventure doesn't have the same type of flow the classics have. One very important thing I seemed to notice is that you seemed to be using Sonic 2 footage. Despite the fact that I think that most stages don't really suffer from the stop-and-go design that Final Egg and Speed Highway have. Sonic 2 had very different, much more momentum focused design than the rest of the trilogy. But if you actually look at... Say... S3&K. Which is where Adventure takes most of its influence from. I think you will find out that the design and flow of the stages aren't all that different (though they are distinct.) 35:28 So... Okay, the reason you like this game. And aren't willing to throw it entirely in the dumpster... Is because you can break the game very easily and it's fun to do that but everything else sucks. Wow... That's your defense for the game? At that point... I don't even think you actually like the game. Now, hold on, I know what you're thinking here. But look at it this way. I observed a very similar phenomenon with Sonic 06. With a lot of people saying that they find it fun to just mess around in it and mess with the glitches. Do these people actually like Sonic 06 as a game? No, of course not. Everyone I've talked to knows the game is not good, but the simple joy of messing around in this weird. Wacky sandbox actually overrides most of the issues these people have with the game. The weird glitches are part of the fun. And I think there's a very similar sentiment to be found in this video. Now, this is of course, a completely valid way to enjoy and look at this game. I personally, actually like the level design from this game, but I definitely do not think this game is perfect by any stretch of the imagination. However, this does sort of make the whole premise of the video series, that you like this game but are willing to give it a critical view. A lie. Liking the act of breaking a game apart and actually liking the game are two different things. However, viewing this video series with that mindset in mind. A lot of your thoughts on this game suddenly make a lot more sense than they did before. So you can make of that what you will. Goodbye. 37:38
Honestly it seems Pariah didn't come to understand the overall level design, mostly in regard to the skips. Like, yeah, you have the ability to skip certain parts of the levels, and I'm sure some of those skips weren't what the developers would want any player to do (I can't convince myself this skip was intentional 40:39, but then again nothing is blocking you). Yet the only people who'll be doing some of these skips are, as Pariah said, seasoned players who aren't playing this for the first time and understand the game and its workings. The same could be said for Mario 64, where good players can outright skip some level segments through skillful play. Hell, 3D Mario still does this. I wouldn't be surprised if (and you probably said this, but I somehow missed it) the Sonic Team devs were inspired to do similar or always had this design in mind during the game's production.
Best response to this video, I was completely puzzled by this critique of the game and would refrain from watching this or the adventures 2 videos because to me it feels like I'm hearing typical 2d purist rhetoric especially if you look at the game its not even trying to being a 1:1 transition but its own thing with the classics as base (you know like any franchise as it progresses). And while he entitled to his opinion, I hate the pompous attitude when discussing the game especially taken the advanced tech that the average player wouldn't discover on the jump. I also found the "people play a sonic game" to be rather polarizing seeing in this very video he describes elements from the classics that are in this game. Overall one his weakest videos
@@zizo5349 thanks, I actually think this comment kinda sucks. At the very least I could articulate my points much better than this. Maybe a video response at some point? I could show clips to hammer in the points further, and writing a script would allow me to have a much more coherent throughline. I dunno. It seems a bit drastic but eh
First, I don't even think one is explicitly necessary. I've played plenty of fast and difficult platformers that require some serious precision. It's doable. But I understand it is a struggle for most. And there are better ways to do it. They already had one in the previous game. The insta-shield. Momentarily increase the size of your hitbox. This would add an element of timing to attacking enemies, and you'd still be in full manual control. A fan game called Sonic Islands does this and I think it has a lot of potential. Other fan games like Utopia or GT have also shown ways to make the homing attack more interesting. Where instead of bouncing up after hitting an enemy, your momentum continues and you blast through them, allowing you to line yourself up with enemies in specific ways to launch yourself in different directions. Utopia also has your movement speed when doing it increase the speed of the homing attack, allowing you to launch yourself further at higher speeds and convert vertical speed to horizontal speed and vice versa. There's a lot more there than just repeatedly pressing a button.
@@Pariah6950 Thanks for the quick response! I didn't know about Sonic Islands until now and would love to see more of your thoughts on it along with others whenever you get around to fangames. Good day sir!
I played this game literally dozens of times and never spin dashed like ever haha i thought it was too hard to control and crazy so I never did it. I’m gonna go back to it and try this out.
While I like your critiq and understand it Sonic Adventure was never meant transition classic sonic into 3d the game was meant to redefine sonic into a new generation kinda like how mario 64 was.this game was never meant to be like a sonic 4 or something it was meant to be a kinda soft reboot(in terms of gameplay) of sonic with It's new design and new generation of the character
I think this game tried to translate the spirit of 2D Sonic rather than simple gameplay. If the developers didn't want you to spindash across everything (which they certainly figured out during development), they would've installed a bunch of invisible walls or simply made it so you can't do a spindash and a jump simultaneously, simple as that. But it's not a bug, it's an advanced tech for someone who replays this game over and over again to get even faster. No kid playing this game for the first time is going to figure it out, it's a reward for continuous play. Reminds me how Street Fighter 2 devs made combos by mistake, but then decided to leave them in for some additional depth.
I was so close to leaving a comment about how despite the issues with the spindash and level design, it's a really fun game to speedrun, and then you covered that. Had me in the first half, not gonna lie :3
I LOVE the jump cancel, idk what it is, it just adds so much style and expression to my movements. It may not be very true to the classic games design ethos, but it is very Sonic. All style baby lol same with the spin dash cancel. It's wrong, but I just enjoy it
It's me, I'm the one who played Sonic Adventure through to the end the first time as the devs intended and ran into the jank and poor level design with zero background nor nostalgia and just put it down after that. It's genuinely interesting to know that these mechanics exist for the speed sections, and it sounds as though there's some genuine fun to be had. But that first experience for me just completely soured my interest in revisiting this one. It is ROUGH that first go-around if you start to play it today, genuinely and in my experience.
My opinion: An overall good game with bad graphics, even (Sometimes especially) in DX, and some janky controls. And putting this hedgehog in 3D sometimes just doesn't work well. The homing attack was probably the best they could come up with at the time, and it just stuck. Do keep in mind, I didn't play this game as a kid, and I still like it.
Well now I don't really think sonic adventure was a transition from 2D to 3D yet a completely new style of gameplay that caries the main fundamentals of sonic like mario 64 You can't say that mario 64 was a transition when mario in 64 is much different than he is in his 2D games 100% but the problem with adventure is that the way that it indroduced the player to new style and the similarities made people think that the game was supposed to be classic sonic in 3D
Why did the end bit turn into "You have to have a very high IQ to like Sonic Adventure". I dunno man I played SA1 for the first time 2 years ago and thought it was badass without doing any of that movement mechanic breaking you're talking about.
While I do disagree with a lot of the opinions that the video shares, there is some stuff that I completely agree with but most of them are fairly minor. But other than that this is an amazingly crafted video with well thought out points
I agree. As much as I love this game, Sonic's momentum based physics have been the most fun out of all of sonics many games and I do think sonic games in the future need that return to form and sonic fan games like Sonic Utopia and Sonic Project Hero prove that it can be done efficiently.
13:28 This had me thinking of how to fix this issue with the spin dash. Should it be a move you can only do when stationary and when you move, it’s a roll or a weaker spindash, or remove the spam ability of it like in 06.
It's one of the mods linked in the description. Get the mod loader set up, unzip the mod and put the folder into the mods folder. Then it should appear in the mod loader. Make sure you have "Install Loader" option turned on.
to be honest im from 2009 and im recently start playing this game and i think this is my favorite sonic games of all times, concitering i never played its before
Hmm the physics discussion makes me.wonder why didnt they make a condition for loops - to speed cap them. So if u were below a certain speed the script woudnt turn on. I think u can do that in SA2 but in heroes is.done and once u hit a loop script u accelerate automatically
I know its considered blasphemy amongst hardcore Sonic fans, which i myself am, to have a 3d game as their favorite game but this is my favorite Sonic game of all time. Sonic's campagin is the best 3d set of levels to date. Love the adventure fields, i enjoy most of the other characters. I like Chaos i think he's a really cool villian. I just love everything about this game outside of Big lol
@@themissingbits6375 Gamma is.... Fine. Nothing special. I do like the mech stages in Sa2 is just the movement is so clunky. As I said I like Sa2. But I just think it's good. Sonics story in Sa1 on its own is better than sa2 imo. And the most important part of the games, the speed stages Sa1 level design I think is much better
@@themissingbits6375 lol you're all good we're just having friendly banter. Sa1 had some shit too but I just like the overall exp better. You like the sa2 exp better. As I said sa2 is good. I enjoy it. You can like it better lol no wrong opionions on game enjoyment
All I look for in a game is fnu. If the game is fun, then I like it. If the game is glitchy, and fun, it will probbally be even more fun. If the game has no glitches, and is okay, i probally will play it for 5 minutes and never again. If a game is Glitchy and okay, the glitchiness can make it fun. I dont care about anything but if the game is fun. Classic Sonic isn't something that you can just Make in 3d. Its not that simple. As a game developer, your expectations of this game are of just "2d in 3d." I don't know what you expect from a 3d console from 1999, but getting perfect 2d sonics physics exactly perfect in 3d, is just absurd. Your asking for perfection, from one of the first 3d games. Sonic is way more complicated than a game like mario, where you jump, and you run. Sonic isn't just gonna be classic sonic. Expecting all of these complicated things out of a white box that shows polygons on a tv is just crazy. Mario 64 is extremley glitchy, because these are some of the first 3d consoles ever. Imagine having sonic running through loops with real physics. Going fast, and running on funky collision. Mario 64 has tons upon tons of glitches. So maybe, just maybe, the company thats running out of money, and using this relativley new form of game. 3d is pretty new, and peole back then were trying to learn this new game style. The hardware running these 3d games is also new. The company is running out of money. the Dreamcast isn't really a big leap from playstation, or n64. I mean obviously it looks better but you have to understand. You say this stuff like, oh this dosn't feel like a sonic game. I dont care what you think, and this isn't like "THINK MY OPINION OR DIE, WRITHING WORM!' I'm just saying like, this game is jank, because 3d games of that time are jank. Things are automated because tech wasn't stable enough to handle this. If 8 bit sonic had automated loops because it was early tech and was to powerful, why can't the FIRST 3d sonic game on one of the FIRST 3d consoles have outomated loops. its the first of its kind. I also dont get why you have a problem with it controlling to smoothly, or whatever. I just spent way to much time typing this, but i'm gonna post it anyway because i've wasted to much time of my life typing this ti just throw it all awya.
Yeah, I get it. Stolen music is stolen music. But somehow, I kinda think it's weird how the designs are like a 4:3 ratio, meaning the designs are kinda janky. I think? I don't know.
the classic sonic model disturbs my fucking soul idk why they didnt just use the absolutey beautiful character model from sonic jam and sonic r when developing sonic adventure.
One thing I don’t think you really get about sonic adventure is that it’s not trying to be a direct translation of the 2d sonic games in a 3d space it’s meant to be its own separate take on sonic’s gameplay and character it’s like how super Mario 64 isn’t a direct translation of 2d Mario sonic adventure is its own separate thing sure stuff like momentum based gameplay was taken from 2d sonic and the spindash but they also added more stuff and changed the physics around this game is simply a different version of sonic and his gameplay it’s not trying to be exactly like the classic games it’s trying to be its own separate thing.
I don't agree. Mario 64 is a game that clearly made no effort to play like the previous games at all. Sonic Adventure however, I see very little in Sonic's gameplay that is not attempting to be like the previous games. The level design and physics are very much trying to be like them, just poorly. The only things that aren't like the Genesis games are holdovers from when the game was an RPG, like the hubs and upgrades. The idea that it's not trying to be like them only comes from the fact that it ended up nothing like them. But as far as what the intention was, I think this was definitely supposed to be like the originals.
@@Pariah6950 okay this post is stupid Firstly, most of the control "inaccuracies" you mentioned were purposeful changes from the classic control scheme. And the game did in fact control closer to the classic games originally. However changed to adapt into a 3D space better The level design... Where do I begin? Firstly, the level design being more linear was an intentional change. Beta Windy Valley showed that they wanted to include more open level design... However that philosophy was abandoned as producing all of the levels like this would be too time consuming and difficult. Same with the lack of emphasis on slopes, this is not something that was a technical limitation either; they very much could've made more rolling, slope based level design even while working with the janky physics. They chose not to do that. I theorise that this was done to keep the game a one button affair excluding the hubs, but regardless. Secondly, even the way the level design is structured is... Also not like the classic games. With the level design consisting of multiple setpieces strung along, without many repeating setpieces. I believe this was completely intentional and not done as a compromise as even Beta Windy Valley reflects this design philosophy. In general, I don't really see how Adventure's compromises and changes are any different to 3D Blast changing the Sonic formula to fit isometric gameplay, nowadays more accurate 3D Classic Sonic gameplay is possible to achieve, however with the limited technology and resources in 1998. Even recreating Sonic physics in 3D at that time would've been a herculean task. So I don't really consider Sonic Adventure to be a terrible compromise. It's not my ideal Sonic and I certainly think there are better alternatives... However keeping in mind the time frame I can refrain from losing my marbles over the game not having as many passivity traps as the classic games.
One of the only compliments i have for this game is the lost world stage with the water buttons and riding the snakes that level annoys me other than that i love everything about this game.I never understood the complaint about the character models like people arguing about how sonic adventures character models are better or sonic dx are better i played the dreamcast version when i was like five and i have the sonic dx version for gamecube and i like both. I think i don't think that deep into the games as much as everyone else i just enjoy the games lol.Another thing that bothers people is how the cutscenes look which also never really bothered me and i love the glitches in this game. I love your videos though they are addictive ❤ keep em coming
Or just make his spindash function just like Tails and Knuckles's melee attacks. That is, if your stopped or moving slowly, then pressing X perfoms the spindash, but when running, pressing X makes Sonic curl into a ball
I never got to play Adventure when it came out and still haven't been able to (in terms of available systems). But amost every time I see gameplay, I feel like it's all spamdashing and..it makes me not want to play it? (I do still hope we get a new collection with at least adventure 1 and 2, if not also some other 3D titles)
@@davidbeer5015 I played through this game many times without using spamdashing, just don't spam the action button if you don't want to use it lol. Also this only works for Sonic anyway, there are 5 other characters to play besides him
If you wanna talk about a 3d sonic game that perfectly translates the classic physics in 3d look no further than project hero. It's literal 1 to 1 but unfortunately the project itself is going through many changes atm and currently it has no in level application. No levels or level ports made for it so it's potential is completely wasted
I've kinda gotten used to you calling the common collectables "coins". I mean, realistically, they basically are. every time you get hit you can just think of it like sonic bribing the enemy not to kill him or something, and rings have been used as currency at times, so they kind of are the coins of sonics world
"You can't judge a game for what it isn't you have to judge it for what it is." Something most sonic fans fail to understand. Maybe then games like Unleashed and the storybook games wouldn't have gotten shit on so heavily when they came out, and the view fans have of them now, in hindsight (which is that they're actually pretty good in a lot of areas, especially Unleashed) would've been present from the beginning, and we would've gotten another ambitious banger like Frontiers sooner.
It's amazing how this man can articulate all of the tiny nuances of Sonic gameplay and explain what makes the games so great or flawed...
But still calls the rings "coins". What a legend.
That’s the joke
The most funny thing about the Adventure games (especially Adventure 1) for me is, how the spindash is basically just an early version of the boost which was later implemented in Rush and obviously Unleashed, Generations, and so on.
There is a portion of the fanbase which just hates on the boost gameplay and wishes to go back to the Adventure style, but...if you actually try to speedrun the Adventure games as FAST as possible, these games basically become early boost games. Again, especially Adventure 1.
The spindash in Adventure 1 is so OP, it is VERY similar to the boost, which makes the whole ,,Boost games suck! Give us back the Adventure formula!"-argument really stupid, in my opinion.
Obviously, preferences exist...but some people just can't deal with their subjective opinions not being shared by everyone.
Not to mention, in terms of how it's designed, SA2 is practically a boost game when it comes to the level design. Its levels are designed with almost the exact same philosophy as the Boost titles other than the lack of 2D sections, a more reaction-based "soft-QTE" as Pariah describes it philosophy. I guess that's partly why its levels were picked for Frontiers and why they kinda just work the same as the other Boost stages, because the design isn't that different from Boost levels, it's just Sonic's movement system and the physical speed you tend to go at that are different. I'd almost hesitate to even really call it a different formula in terms of design, yeah Sonic's moveset is fairly different and he has the boost move but that's...kinda it.
It especially makes you think when you look at what was apparently the development story behind Sonic Unleashed, where it was apparently being created to be the sequel to SA2 (presumably SA3) but they claimed they got to what we had in the final game by just coming up with more ideas and adding more new things to that idea that gradually morphed it into the Daytime Boost gameplay, rather than intentionally doing a complete rework and scrapping everything to make up something entirely new and different out of the blue. And then there's more with that now with the interviews and all leading up to the release of Frontiers, the way they were describing what 3D Sonic has been for the past 20 years was how it was apparently all defined by SA1, the way they talked suggested that they viewed the Adventure and Boost games as kinda the same thing, and just a gradual evolution and transforming of the same core overarching formula that SA1 apparently established, and which apparently was continuing for 20 years until by the time they finished Forces they weren't sure what to do and thought it had grown stale and stagnant and so pivoted to Frontiers' "open zone." It almost makes you wonder if viewing them as radically different things is something largely created by the fanbase or not.
100% agree with your comment. I just want to add that the spindash in Frontiers basically functions as a second boost which doesn't glue you to the ground.
It is very similar in concept and execution. Is the Adventure spindash actually THAT different in comparison to the Frontiers spindash? I would argue no. The Frontiers one is just an evolution of the same thing. And the boost is, obviously, really similar, so...
@@legoboy7107
@@tadaokou4919 Yeah, it's basically just simplified. Instead of having to span the spindash button to "boost," you just hold the button to achieve what's effectively the same effect but just less awkward and more polished.
From 40 minutes of constructive criticism to the point of ripping it a new asshole, to "dude, this game fucking kicks ass." That was actually funny as hell. Nice 180.
That is the thing with the Sonic series. You can compare each new game to any other game in the same series and say “well this game sucks because it’s not like this other game” all you want, but if you look at most of the games as their own thing and treat them as their own game (like how Sonic Team seems to do whenever they come up with a new idea) then you will find a TON to enjoy. Oddly Sonic Adventure feels like the closest official product to a Classic Sonic game but in 3D, but it is still completely it’s own beast and is awesome in its own right.
Obviously, you can always prefer one style of Sonic game over all the others, but I think there’s a lot to appreciate in most Sonic games no matter what the style.
They're rings. Not coins.
SADX is basically Doom:Sonic Edition. So many great and fun mods and ways to make it tailor made for you. The level editor is extremely easy to use as well. This game has infinite replay value to me.
It's funny how Sonic Team has failed to transition Sonic gameplay into 3D and yet through these failures people discovered new ways to play Sonic Adventure the fun way. And because it is possible to play it the fun way, it is a very fun 3D platformer.
I do imagine that there was a lot of chaos inside SEGA. I mean they are not doing too well in the console market, they are practically on the brink of bankruptcy. I mean the fate of SEGA entirely depended on the success of Sonic Adventure. I could be wrong.
The entire time you were criticizing things like the broken spindash or the easily exploitable level design I was just thinking "Yeah, but it's fun".
What a plot twist to see you agree
WHAT A TWIST
The ring loss pattern is probably the weirdest complaint I've heard for this game
Lol right?
The circle is much more convenient than if they scattered far,in every direction of the area.
Along with the homing attack
Sadly this isn't the only time a Classic Sonic purist has complained about the ring loss pattern either. Back when Sonic 4 was new, there were a lot of them complaining that the more you got hit, the crazier and faster your rings would scatter in Sonic 4, making it harder and harder to get your rings back.
So uh yeah, I guess this comes full circle.
@@DarkkirbyKRPG huh? Hasn’t that been a thing since the original Classics, or Sonic Rush..??
@@DarkkirbyKRPG Well, now that we have Sonic Frontiers, that should keep em quiet for a bit lol
The automated sections are just spectacle yeah but they let you catch a break, and I personally very much need a break from time to time in these levels. In fighting games similarly I think cinematic specials are good cause they give you a moment to think of what to do afterwards. They're annoying in succession but that's obviously not gonna happen in a linear platformer where the set pieces don't repeat. Also why do you assume the shortcuts weren't intended? We're talking about a company that made Super Monkey Ball here.
Last thing: if you enjoy 3D platformers with cool movement options you should check out A Hat in Time if you haven't already
I assume a lot of the shortcuts are unintended because Tails can just fly to skip the entirety of Windy Valley. That tells me they did not really realize what these characters could do when designing these levels. Among many other things. Don't overly associate things because they are all Sega games. Sonic Team had nothing to do with Monkey Ball.
A Hat in Time is probably my favorite collect-a-thon ever. Though not really for its movement mechanics. Check out a game called Cloudbuilt. That game has sick movement.
I think Developer Intent is overrated anyway, and I also think that a big focus of 3D Sonic games, intended or otherwise - and this is something that clicked into place with *Forces* of all games - is spatial awareness. Just about all of these games have some kind of trick that lets you cover huge distances in a single jump, and at that point the fun of routing is creating a mental map of the level to figure out where you can use the fuckbusted superjump tech to skip. Realizing where and how these levels are connected in 3D space and how you can do the insane thing to skip huge chunks is fun, and I don't even think it's "bad level design" given that everybody's gonna have at least one playthrough where they do it the normal way. Honestly, I'd kinda like to see the series lean into it more and start designing levels to have these skips deliberately built in. I actually think Frontiers is a start here, with the open nature of the open zone platforming and stuff like the roof on the final section of 1-2 - the level with the infamously tight S-rank - begging you to think in terms of "you can skip parts of the level".
btw, omg you are my favorite youtuber now, ive been watching your classic series and lore retrospective, god, where were you? ive been needing this awesome content.
For real, it feels like the channel just, boom, a load of quality content.
While i disagree and agree with numerous points, the only point that left me scratching my head is the whole "SA1 being nothing like the classics", because imo, i feel the complete opposite.
It's the reason i like the classics and SA1 specially and anything after it, i start feeling mixed between liking it and disliking it.
And seeing what other people think about the game, i always seen it as praised for it being faithful to the classics in many ways, but disliked for the yank and other problems you mentioned.
You should try playing my physics overhaul mod of SADX called “Better Physics”. It’s a bit (see also: very much) janky, but it makes the game rely more on rolling and stuff.
I have. It's a cool mod. Nice job. But it's still a far cry from ideal. That's just the nature of SA1. Even if we could get immaculate physics, the level design still makes it difficult to really utilize it in the way you'd want. Great job, though!
I've played the mod as well. It was pretty good. Maybe slightly too slippery, but people should try if they are going to mod the game for sure
@IsaacInfernape2000 (Dollar UA-camrs killer) When are you gonna stop ranting
This is like a complete 180 from Ruby of Blue's video.
Banging videos, lad. Been binging this series and whilst I may not always agree, I enjoy hearing yr point of view! Keep slaying, boy.
I think the high-velocity-momentum-based-platforming-in-3D nut is a bit harder to crack than you suggest. Playing fangames that try, like Sonic Robo Blast 2 or Sonic Utopia can be quite maddening when that sweet momentum means Sonic sails over a small platform you're trying to jump on from a standstill. There's a seemingly fine line between 'momentum is king' and 'floaty imprecise bullshit'. IMO, the homing attack (and Sonics sticky weird physics in general) is a fine solution, if not perfect and somewhat lazily used. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on various fan efforts to fix Sonics 3D movement!
The automation in general is the Adventure games' biggest flaw IMO. Slapping boost pads everywhere and locking u into loops with insane artificial speed just irks me.
I know this video is quite old now but it's still really great. A fantastic deep dive into the mechanics of the game and how different Adventure really is to the Classics. I agree on your point about the homing attack but I think it'd be cool if you elaborated on when you said "there are many other ways they could've implemented an aid for platforming that would've been more interesting". Basically, what would you have done differently to Sonic Team in that regard?
One idea would be to keep the Insta-Shield, but perhaps maybe give it an even bigger hitbox, that way you have more leniency with hitting enemies in 3D but it's still skill-based and not at all automated and still maintains the movement depth.
You're mostly speaking as somebody who's been playing this game for decades. No one who's new to the game is going to break the game with creative spindashing. On the contrary, they're probably going to take the easier paths, and they take much more time, which equals more gameplay.
He did say that
Almost as if replaying the game and getting better at it will improve the experience as the devs intentionally add nuances and gameplay elements that reward you for your skill 🤯
@@ykgcaramel6515 Yeah ikr completely unheard of
I wasn’t doing all of it, but I was doing stuff like this on my first run through of Adventure. Because I know Sonic.
This game is too easy
@@ykgcaramel6515it's not like they intended for skilled players to completely fuck up and exploit the level design using the spam dash and spindash jumps,and any player who notices that the spindash is spammable will keep on spamming,
I thought you would mention it but you didn't end up mentioning it: Tails and Knuckles can actually roll like how you mentioned Sonic can't roll anymore. You can roll as Tails and Knuckles by pressing the spindash button after running. Might be something to look into as a mod for Sonic's gameplay in the future if it's possible.
Great video by the way. I have been very frustrated for years with the "Sonic Adventure has not aged well" crowd and have vehemently disagreed with them about one of my favorite games and part of why I've been frustrated about it is a large chunk of people making off-handed negative comments about the game but never articulating why they feel the way they do. But watching your video I don't feel my opinion is being disrespected if that makes sense. I still disagree with that crowd but I respect the different opinion a lot more now that it's been articulated.
Great point, it totally slipped my mind while watching this
honestly this review seems like its coming from someone who has played the game a bajillion times already, knows the shortcuts and strats and is complaining about why they even exist. Judging the game for how unsimilar it is to classic sonic games is so unfair, you can make the same argument for many other games in this generation that made a jump to 3d
theres a lot i find wrong in this review but i enjoyed it and it IS your own perspective and experience, which is fine
While the physics and collision detection of this game were janky as hell, this game still managed to have my favorite 3D Sonic. I find the dumb physics fun in their own way and I think it's cool that the level design was as inventive and varied as it was. There's a sense of detail, structure, and variety to the environments that I find missing in just about every 3D game afterwards.
Play the Dreamcast version. The Dreamcast Conversion mod DOES NOT alleviate the bigger issues.
@@DanielFahimi I have the Dreamcast version. It's what I'm referring to in this scenario. The game may have aged worse and worse with each rerelease, but it was always really janky.
@@kyasarintsu4047 It is janky in the Dreamcast version, but it's not janky to the point where it affects your enjoyment in a major way. Of course, Sonic Adventure HAS aged, but could you say that about Ocarina of Time and Mario 64?
And I don't know what you mean by 'dumb physics'. Please elaborate.
I think the game is pretty notably glitchy even on Dreamcast. I think it's less "DX made the game super glitchy" as much as it's that "for every glitch they fixed from DC, they added one or two".
With the physics, I just think that they're a little floaty and unfaithful, with easy access to huge speed and the ability to hurl yourself out of bounds and across huge gaps. It's really fun to toy with and glitch/trick hunting across all versions of the game that I own (DC, GC, PS3, PC) kept me entertained for quite a while. It's a real level of appeal for me.
@@kyasarintsu4047 I didn't find the game glitchy much at all. For example, Pinball minigame in Casinopolis while not perfect, was perfectly functional. In the DX version, due to the horrific collision detection and physics, the minigame becomes a total chore. And the even if the Dreamcast version isn't very polished, the DX version is FAR glitchier.
By the way, although Sonic Adventure does give you instant access to super speed, but it comes with consequences. Not everyone can pull it off. The speed is still earned through skillful play.
I don't know where this mentality of "Sonic Adventure HAS to play like the Genesis games for it to be good" really comes from. What's the point of recreating the same gameplay in 3D? Wouldn't it be better in creating a NEW gameplay that was not possible in 2D? Isn't that what Mario 64 did?
As someone who adores SA1, it's really interesting to hear your takes about the game. I think SRB2 is the closest we have to the classic physics in 3D and if you haven't played it already you're doing yourself a disservice.
I've played it. It's great. But also not quite right. It does some things right, but a lot is still off. Level design is pretty close though. Games like Utopia or GT are pretty close to what I would expect physics wise. I do plan on eventually covering fan games as well. Lots of great stuff.
@@Pariah6950 Yeah I get what you mean. Thankfully, SRB2 2.3 is being worked on and lots of momentum physics, slopes, and speed based level design is being experimented with.
Idk how you can say srb2 has similar controls when sonic is an ice skating doomslayer. I've played a load of srb2 and the game could do with less slippery movement imo and more tighter movement. Yeah it feels good to nail the flow of srb2, but it is far from tight controls and way too deep into the momentum based gameplay.
@@DonutSwordsman I think Par seems to prefer committal movements and momentum base physics. He did say in the video before he mentioned spindashing that the control in this game is TOO good
What do you think of Spark The Electric Jester 2 and the demo for 3?
Damn, that dash panel segment got me thinking. I wonder if anyone's put out a mod to remove all the dash panels from every Sonic version of the levels...
I do also have to say. You said you either enjoy it or not depending on how much you like spam dashing? I disagree. I love the game and level design on its own. I do a few spam dash tricks here and there and they are super fun but most of the time i play the level design as intended bc i enjoy it so much. Sonic's campaign anyway. Sonic's story is the best 3d campagin in terms of level design in the whole 3d series imho
Man imagine writing an comment before the video is over. He does like this
37:37 when the positive comes in
@@themissingbits6375 I have watched both parts. He pretty much says its awesome but your enjoyment of the game comes from if you're into spam dashing and breaking the levels. While fun, that is what i disagree with. The level design is awesome as intended as well. I'm literally adressing what he said towards the end of the video. So wtf are you on about?
42:04 i firmly disagree that this particular thing is “objectively bad from a level design perspective”-while i get your point that a lot of these cuts were clearly not intended and that it does hurt the level design, i think any game that truly frees its player can, will, and *should* end up with a lot of emergent stuff like that, and i would much rather take “intended path that you can choose to entirely ignore” over “intended path that the level design and mechanics strictly force you onto” (cough cough SA2), deliberate or not, and i think you’d agree because we both know that is fun as hell and you seem to despise automation just as much as me
Sonic Adventure is no less of a sonic game then Mario 64 is a Mario game.
Sonic Adventure is a genuine good/great sonic game. It does some things differently but that’s not a bad thing.
You keep saying it fails to be a sonic game, but it doesn’t, it’s a great sonic game.
Guess what?, Mario 64 isn’t the same as the 2D Mario games, sometimes you have to change things in 3D. Is Mario 64 somehow not a Mario game?
I don’t mind the controls and I have no issues with the level design, it’s not bad even if it’s different.
It’s not identical to 2d but I don’t mind
It does play like a sonic game, as not all sonic games are the same
I also don’t think being able to skip levels is objectively bad
It’s not a poor recreation of previous games either, it’s not identical but it’s not bad
I can enjoy the game without breaking it.
I don’t love the game cause I can break it, I love it cause it has fun levels, gameplay, and the story (even if lacking the same polish that it’s sequel has) is interesting.
Funny you make the Mario 64 comparison. Because yes, I would say Mario 64 is not a Mario game, considering the series up to that point. It plays absolutely nothing like the previous Mario games. It created a new type of Mario game.
Same for Breath of the Wild. That is not a Zelda game. It is a new type of game within the series.
@@Pariah6950 Interesting perspective, just because a game isn’t exactly the same as previous games doesn’t mean it’s not a “true/real” entry in the series.
Mario 64 is a Mario game given it still feels like one even if it is different.
You could argue sub series maybe but still a Mario game
As for breath of the wild overall it’s still a Zelda game but it lacks a lot of series staples like proper dungeons, items, etc so while I still think it qualifies it does things very differently for sure and while I enjoyed it, as a Zelda game I think it could have been better.
@@Pariah6950 wow, after reading this reply I completely understand your points slanted towards this game from a new perspective. Since I agree with the Breath of the Wild take. It may redefine what it means for a Zelda game to be a Zelda game but it absolutely is not a Zelda game as we knew them up until that point. People that run to the "it's supposed to be like the original game anyway" defense must have never played the original game either or at least misunderstood how it worked.
32:17 I know it's one of the few examples but that set piece is actually a passivity trap.
If you just let the set piece end you'll miss a shortcut you can do by going backwards after you get released from the rollercoaster
the ring pattern was never even a thought in my head. thats such a weird pick. i cant say i agree with you on all criticisms but definitely fair.
Your videos are great, more people need to see this
Interesting, but one of the things that most people get wrong is that the 3D adaptation of a 2D video game is not a copy and paste of its original deliveries, for example, Mario 64 has little or nothing to do with various faiths. the mechanics of 2d games, is that bad? No, it was excellent, a perfect evolution, although Aonic Adventure was not perfect, it was a good evolution of the Megadrive games, they made a good reinvention, the homing attack is not completely automatic as you say, since you must be at a good distance from the enemy to execute it and if not, it fails, it also did well in transmitting the speed of 2D games, and yes, it is still a reward, it is not a gift at all.
Both the Sonic adventure games is at the time period where video games are just starting to be on 3d like Mario 64. Also the reason why Sonic looks different in the adventures games is because he's supposed to look older than the original games I think.
you should seriously look into Sonic Utopia, it does the faithful transition of, well, everything you mentioned about classic sonic physics, the jumping, the turning, the spinning, WHILE keeping the "parkour breaking complex movement" playground spirit you unlocked in SA1
Come on. Give me more credit than that. I've already played Utopia a bunch. I love it.
@@Pariah6950 touche, im just used to big youtubers being a bit more on the "detached" side, especially since you didnt mention the triple trouble and sonic chaos fan remakes *evil grin
i don’t think utopia is that good honestly. the design is way too wide and open, it feels a bit mindless. the controls are smooth but there is just nothing to do, plus no homing reticle.
i’d say a good faithful 3D adaptation of classic sonic is srb2. although it has limits i the doom engine, it’s very much so a 3D genesis sonic game
@@kso86. nah, not with super sonic like physics, flying across entire level set pieces with a simple jump
This is going to be a light response to your video, offering clarification on certain topics and responding to certain arguments in the video. With timestamps put in to give a general idea on what exactly I'm responding to.
The floaty jump was added later in development. 7:43
Originally, the falling was supposed to be more closer to the classic games. You would also have the ability to hold down the roll button in the air. And then transfer the momentum from your jump into speed. Since holding the rolling button in the air in the final version causes the mid air momentum cancel. It can be assumed that that mechanic also wasn't present until later in development. 8:08
That is because the homing attack and the jump are supposed to be one and the same. I.E. if the homing attack makes you bounce up in the air, so should the normal jump. Since the homing attack is just a homed-in version of Sonic's normal jump. 8:37
This is moreso a consequence of wanting to give the player better air control. You want the player to land where they want to land. Especially in a 3D space, where, by nature, platforming is more precise than in 2D. This does slightly take away from the momentum aspect of Sonic. Though. (But the mid air momentum cancel was still added later in development.) 8:49
The thing with the Spamdash is that it seems to be a result of the developers messing with the mechanics of the spindash more than anything. We do know that the spindash behaved differently early in development, but we don't know to what extent, or if spamdashing was even possible in early builds. 13:21
Cherrypicked example of something you weren't even supposed to wallrun up to. The reason this doesn't really work is because walls in general have rougher and more basic collision detection than floors. Since you need just enough information for the game to tell that it's a wall. Floor collision is a lot cleaner since Sonic needs to smoothly traverse the areas he's running across. So when you're wallrunning on designated wallrunning areas. The game uses cleaner collision detection, and it works relatively well. If you run down the wall, you gain speed. If you run up the wall, you run slower and eventually fall off. The problem with running on walls that you aren't supposed to run on is that due to the rough collision, the physics engine sort of goes awry and breaks. 15:39
Going through loops, tunnels and all that stuff is 1000% possible in SA1's engine. The only reason automation is used for loops is because it allows the game designers to put special camera angles when going through loops, and the fact that it's just easier to make the player hold forward than rather physically navigate the loop in 3D. Messing around in a weirdly shaped tunnel doesn't really disprove that. 17:30
What those people really mean by that (well, at least me personally.) Is that structurally, the stages are the most similar to the classic games than any of the other 3D games. Encouraging exploration, having multiple pathways and having a certain unique flow to them. 18:14
The spindash pretty much removed the loops role as any sort of speed gate in Sonic 2. You can still roll through loops and set pieces in Adventure. The only thing that was really removed were the slope jumps. 19:06
Springs gave the player much more control In Sonic Jam's Sonic World. Which was a prototype of adventure. So it's pretty safe to assume that springs were less automated in prototype builds for adventure. 20:35
Definitely one of your worst points here. They did this so that you could collect the rings back easier. If they would bounce around like in the 2D games it would be pretty hard to collect them back. Especially in a 3D space. 21:10
The homing attack did actually have a shorter range in earlier builds. Meaning that you would have to be more precise in your aiming. This was changed to be more forgiving later on since homing attack chains didn't really work with the shorter range. Since the developers would have to very carefully position enemies in such a way where the player was guaranteed to hit them. But often times, one of the enemies would be slightly out of the target radius and the player would be sent flying, so the radius for attacking on the homing attack was changed so this wouldn't happen anymore. 24:04
The lightspeed dash was more intended to be an incentive for replaying stages rather than be an entirely in-depth mechanic on its own. You would see a trail of rings in an early level. Have no idea what that's about, come back and replay the level later with the light speed dash. And bam. Now you found out. 26:48
Because they weren't trying to.
originally, adventure was supposed to be a follow up to the classics. Using momentum based level design with many twisting pathways. And you can still see a lot of glimpses of that in the final game. But as Sonic himself was being rethought, so were the mechanics and level design: Sonic Adventure, as it currently stands. In the form you are playing it right now, is very much supposed to be distinct from the games that came before it. Regardless of what the original intentions for the project were. 27:36
This one is also pretty dumb. Apparently, the level design doesn't matter because you can do unintended skips to skip it... What? I'd be fine if this was part of a specific point you were trying to get across in the video. But seeing as you supposedly want to analyse the game in full. Talking about and dissecting each part of the game. It's pretty weird to just... Ignore the actual level design, especially since the level design is what definitely pays most homage to the classics, in general structure, it just doesn't really feel like you're giving the game a fair shake on all fronts, by that logic, Mario 64 isn't a good game because you can do unintended glitches and get to bowser without collecting a single star. 28:41
The level design has to be interconnected in that way because these areas are designed for knuckles. And less because the developers are stupid and think the players are stupid. 29:55
Again, I hate how smug you are acting here. It makes you very unlikeable to the audience watching. It's also very stereotypical "game reviewer" way of acting that makes your videos feel very cliché. 30:52
Okay, this thing. There are a lot of stages in SA1 that use dash panels. While some have barely any. I'm gonna count em.
Emerald Coast: 48
Windy Valley: 49
Casinopolis: 7
Icecap: 26
Twinkle Park: 11
Speed Highway: 69 (might've missed some)
Red Mountain: 4
Sky Deck: 60
Lost World: 2
Final Egg: 28
(Keep in mind also that dash panels often come in groups. Which naturally means an uptick in how many there are in each level.)
While yes, Sonic Adventure does have Automation in it. I feel that boiling down SA1 to "shallow automation" when you're not trying to purposefully break the game is purposefully reductive of the actual gameplay. The only setpiece I have any issue is the rollercoaster in Twinkle Park. I have no issue with the whale chase since you can Spamdash your way through it. Which is not only more interactive but also ever so slightly faster than just normally running through the chase. Otherwise, the loops are barely ever longer than 3 seconds. Most of them are literally just a second long. They feel more like small breathers more than anything else. I don't really even notice them when I'm playing, they're that inconsequential. 31:00
I very much disagree with the notion that Sonic Adventure doesn't have the same type of flow the classics have. One very important thing I seemed to notice is that you seemed to be using Sonic 2 footage. Despite the fact that I think that most stages don't really suffer from the stop-and-go design that Final Egg and Speed Highway have. Sonic 2 had very different, much more momentum focused design than the rest of the trilogy. But if you actually look at... Say... S3&K. Which is where Adventure takes most of its influence from. I think you will find out that the design and flow of the stages aren't all that different (though they are distinct.) 35:28
So... Okay, the reason you like this game. And aren't willing to throw it entirely in the dumpster... Is because you can break the game very easily and it's fun to do that but everything else sucks.
Wow... That's your defense for the game? At that point... I don't even think you actually like the game. Now, hold on, I know what you're thinking here. But look at it this way. I observed a very similar phenomenon with Sonic 06. With a lot of people saying that they find it fun to just mess around in it and mess with the glitches. Do these people actually like Sonic 06 as a game? No, of course not. Everyone I've talked to knows the game is not good, but the simple joy of messing around in this weird. Wacky sandbox actually overrides most of the issues these people have with the game. The weird glitches are part of the fun.
And I think there's a very similar sentiment to be found in this video.
Now, this is of course, a completely valid way to enjoy and look at this game. I personally, actually like the level design from this game, but I definitely do not think this game is perfect by any stretch of the imagination. However, this does sort of make the whole premise of the video series, that you like this game but are willing to give it a critical view. A lie. Liking the act of breaking a game apart and actually liking the game are two different things.
However, viewing this video series with that mindset in mind. A lot of your thoughts on this game suddenly make a lot more sense than they did before. So you can make of that what you will. Goodbye.
37:38
Honestly it seems Pariah didn't come to understand the overall level design, mostly in regard to the skips. Like, yeah, you have the ability to skip certain parts of the levels, and I'm sure some of those skips weren't what the developers would want any player to do (I can't convince myself this skip was intentional 40:39, but then again nothing is blocking you). Yet the only people who'll be doing some of these skips are, as Pariah said, seasoned players who aren't playing this for the first time and understand the game and its workings. The same could be said for Mario 64, where good players can outright skip some level segments through skillful play. Hell, 3D Mario still does this. I wouldn't be surprised if (and you probably said this, but I somehow missed it) the Sonic Team devs were inspired to do similar or always had this design in mind during the game's production.
Very elegantly put, I agree with the majority of these points.
Best response to this video, I was completely puzzled by this critique of the game and would refrain from watching this or the adventures 2 videos because to me it feels like I'm hearing typical 2d purist rhetoric especially if you look at the game its not even trying to being a 1:1 transition but its own thing with the classics as base (you know like any franchise as it progresses). And while he entitled to his opinion, I hate the pompous attitude when discussing the game especially taken the advanced tech that the average player wouldn't discover on the jump. I also found the "people play a sonic game" to be rather polarizing seeing in this very video he describes elements from the classics that are in this game. Overall one his weakest videos
Best comment on this video tbh
@@zizo5349 thanks, I actually think this comment kinda sucks. At the very least I could articulate my points much better than this. Maybe a video response at some point? I could show clips to hammer in the points further, and writing a script would allow me to have a much more coherent throughline. I dunno. It seems a bit drastic but eh
I'm very curious as to what kind of aid you would replace the Homing Attack with for hitting enemies in a 3D space?
First, I don't even think one is explicitly necessary. I've played plenty of fast and difficult platformers that require some serious precision. It's doable. But I understand it is a struggle for most. And there are better ways to do it.
They already had one in the previous game. The insta-shield. Momentarily increase the size of your hitbox. This would add an element of timing to attacking enemies, and you'd still be in full manual control. A fan game called Sonic Islands does this and I think it has a lot of potential.
Other fan games like Utopia or GT have also shown ways to make the homing attack more interesting. Where instead of bouncing up after hitting an enemy, your momentum continues and you blast through them, allowing you to line yourself up with enemies in specific ways to launch yourself in different directions. Utopia also has your movement speed when doing it increase the speed of the homing attack, allowing you to launch yourself further at higher speeds and convert vertical speed to horizontal speed and vice versa. There's a lot more there than just repeatedly pressing a button.
@@Pariah6950 Thanks for the quick response! I didn't know about Sonic Islands until now and would love to see more of your thoughts on it along with others whenever you get around to fangames. Good day sir!
I played this game literally dozens of times and never spin dashed like ever haha i thought it was too hard to control and crazy so I never did it. I’m gonna go back to it and try this out.
While I like your critiq and understand it
Sonic Adventure was never meant transition classic sonic into 3d the game was meant to redefine sonic into a new generation kinda like how mario 64 was.this game was never meant to be like a sonic 4 or something it was meant to be a kinda soft reboot(in terms of gameplay) of sonic with It's new design and new generation of the character
I think this game tried to translate the spirit of 2D Sonic rather than simple gameplay. If the developers didn't want you to spindash across everything (which they certainly figured out during development), they would've installed a bunch of invisible walls or simply made it so you can't do a spindash and a jump simultaneously, simple as that. But it's not a bug, it's an advanced tech for someone who replays this game over and over again to get even faster. No kid playing this game for the first time is going to figure it out, it's a reward for continuous play. Reminds me how Street Fighter 2 devs made combos by mistake, but then decided to leave them in for some additional depth.
I was so close to leaving a comment about how despite the issues with the spindash and level design, it's a really fun game to speedrun, and then you covered that. Had me in the first half, not gonna lie :3
31:52 SS4 Gogeta's level 1 from Dragonball fighterz was the first thing that came to mind
I LOVE the jump cancel, idk what it is, it just adds so much style and expression to my movements. It may not be very true to the classic games design ethos, but it is very Sonic. All style baby lol same with the spin dash cancel. It's wrong, but I just enjoy it
It's me, I'm the one who played Sonic Adventure through to the end the first time as the devs intended and ran into the jank and poor level design with zero background nor nostalgia and just put it down after that. It's genuinely interesting to know that these mechanics exist for the speed sections, and it sounds as though there's some genuine fun to be had. But that first experience for me just completely soured my interest in revisiting this one. It is ROUGH that first go-around if you start to play it today, genuinely and in my experience.
My opinion: An overall good game with bad graphics, even (Sometimes especially) in DX, and some janky controls. And putting this hedgehog in 3D sometimes just doesn't work well. The homing attack was probably the best they could come up with at the time, and it just stuck. Do keep in mind, I didn't play this game as a kid, and I still like it.
Well now I don't really think sonic adventure was a transition from 2D to 3D yet a completely new style of gameplay that caries the main fundamentals of sonic like mario 64
You can't say that mario 64 was a transition when mario in 64 is much different than he is in his 2D games 100%
but the problem with adventure is that the way that it indroduced the player to new style and the similarities made people think that the game was supposed to be classic sonic in 3D
Great explanation! Adventure is my favourite Sonic games and you totally agree with all your complaints… Doesn’t change the fact that it is super fun.
Why did the end bit turn into "You have to have a very high IQ to like Sonic Adventure". I dunno man I played SA1 for the first time 2 years ago and thought it was badass without doing any of that movement mechanic breaking you're talking about.
While I do disagree with a lot of the opinions that the video shares, there is some stuff that I completely agree with but most of them are fairly minor. But other than that this is an amazingly crafted video with well thought out points
Geez this guy really loves his mods. He would get along well with George Lucas.
I agree. As much as I love this game, Sonic's momentum based physics have been the most fun out of all of sonics many games and I do think sonic games in the future need that return to form and sonic fan games like Sonic Utopia and Sonic Project Hero prove that it can be done efficiently.
Knuckles has big head in Dreamcast model making it objectively the best
This is my favorite Sonic game.
13:28 This had me thinking of how to fix this issue with the spin dash. Should it be a move you can only do when stationary and when you move, it’s a roll or a weaker spindash, or remove the spam ability of it like in 06.
hi sorry to be a bother but how do u add the classic models to this. ive tried looking on how but i cant figure it out
It's one of the mods linked in the description. Get the mod loader set up, unzip the mod and put the folder into the mods folder. Then it should appear in the mod loader. Make sure you have "Install Loader" option turned on.
Oh wow I did not expect you to criticize it this much tbh but I see your points lol
to be honest im from 2009 and im recently start playing this game and i think this is my favorite sonic games of all times, concitering i never played its before
5:15 based
Hmm the physics discussion makes me.wonder why didnt they make a condition for loops - to speed cap them. So if u were below a certain speed the script woudnt turn on. I think u can do that in SA2 but in heroes is.done and once u hit a loop script u accelerate automatically
I feel very similar to this video about Sonic Frontiers
Lowkey some of these songs sound like Duke Nukem 3D E1M1
You should make a full video on Sonic Utopia. I feel like it addresses every complaint you have aside from probably level design haha
the classic sonic mod trolling is very silly :3
Honestly I think Mario is the pinnacle of basic.
This has got to be the most comprehensive breakdown of the gameplay for this game. Damn, you're good! Great video!
Can you cover the fangame Sonic GT??
Great observations regarding the physics, momentum and movement.
I know its considered blasphemy amongst hardcore Sonic fans, which i myself am, to have a 3d game as their favorite game but this is my favorite Sonic game of all time. Sonic's campagin is the best 3d set of levels to date. Love the adventure fields, i enjoy most of the other characters. I like Chaos i think he's a really cool villian. I just love everything about this game outside of Big lol
@@themissingbits6375 Gamma is.... Fine. Nothing special. I do like the mech stages in Sa2 is just the movement is so clunky. As I said I like Sa2. But I just think it's good. Sonics story in Sa1 on its own is better than sa2 imo. And the most important part of the games, the speed stages Sa1 level design I think is much better
@@themissingbits6375 lol you're all good we're just having friendly banter. Sa1 had some shit too but I just like the overall exp better. You like the sa2 exp better. As I said sa2 is good. I enjoy it. You can like it better lol no wrong opionions on game enjoyment
@@themissingbits6375 That's actually a very good comparison. And would you guess I like smb3 better lol
Have you played Sonic GT
It's a way more accurate transition of the classics into 3D than Sonic Adventure
All I look for in a game is fnu. If the game is fun, then I like it. If the game is glitchy, and fun, it will probbally be even more fun. If the game has no glitches, and is okay, i probally will play it for 5 minutes and never again. If a game is Glitchy and okay, the glitchiness can make it fun. I dont care about anything but if the game is fun. Classic Sonic isn't something that you can just Make in 3d. Its not that simple. As a game developer, your expectations of this game are of just "2d in 3d." I don't know what you expect from a 3d console from 1999, but getting perfect 2d sonics physics exactly perfect in 3d, is just absurd.
Your asking for perfection, from one of the first 3d games. Sonic is way more complicated than a game like mario, where you jump, and you run. Sonic isn't just gonna be classic sonic. Expecting all of these complicated things out of a white box that shows polygons on a tv is just crazy. Mario 64 is extremley glitchy, because these are some of the first 3d consoles ever. Imagine having sonic running through loops with real physics. Going fast, and running on funky collision. Mario 64 has tons upon tons of glitches. So maybe, just maybe, the company thats running out of money, and using this relativley new form of game. 3d is pretty new, and peole back then were trying to learn this new game style. The hardware running these 3d games is also new. The company is running out of money. the Dreamcast isn't really a big leap from playstation, or n64. I mean obviously it looks better but you have to understand. You say this stuff like, oh this dosn't feel like a sonic game. I dont care what you think, and this isn't like "THINK MY OPINION OR DIE, WRITHING WORM!' I'm just saying like, this game is jank, because 3d games of that time are jank. Things are automated because tech wasn't stable enough to handle this. If 8 bit sonic had automated loops because it was early tech and was to powerful, why can't the FIRST 3d sonic game on one of the FIRST 3d consoles have outomated loops.
its the first of its kind. I also dont get why you have a problem with it controlling to smoothly, or whatever. I just spent way to much time typing this, but i'm gonna post it anyway because i've wasted to much time of my life typing this ti just throw it all awya.
Yeah, I get it. Stolen music is stolen music. But somehow, I kinda think it's weird how the designs are like a 4:3 ratio, meaning the designs are kinda janky. I think? I don't know.
OMG the twist at 38:40 killed me XD
the classic sonic model disturbs my fucking soul idk why they didnt just use the absolutey beautiful character model from sonic jam and sonic r when developing sonic adventure.
Which fan game translates classic sonic into 3d as closely as possible?
Sonic Utopia.
Sonic Robo Blast 2
One thing I don’t think you really get about sonic adventure is that it’s not trying to be a direct translation of the 2d sonic games in a 3d space it’s meant to be its own separate take on sonic’s gameplay and character it’s like how super Mario 64 isn’t a direct translation of 2d Mario sonic adventure is its own separate thing sure stuff like momentum based gameplay was taken from 2d sonic and the spindash but they also added more stuff and changed the physics around this game is simply a different version of sonic and his gameplay it’s not trying to be exactly like the classic games it’s trying to be its own separate thing.
I don't agree. Mario 64 is a game that clearly made no effort to play like the previous games at all.
Sonic Adventure however, I see very little in Sonic's gameplay that is not attempting to be like the previous games. The level design and physics are very much trying to be like them, just poorly. The only things that aren't like the Genesis games are holdovers from when the game was an RPG, like the hubs and upgrades.
The idea that it's not trying to be like them only comes from the fact that it ended up nothing like them. But as far as what the intention was, I think this was definitely supposed to be like the originals.
@@Pariah6950 okay this post is stupid
Firstly, most of the control "inaccuracies" you mentioned were purposeful changes from the classic control scheme. And the game did in fact control closer to the classic games originally. However changed to adapt into a 3D space better
The level design... Where do I begin?
Firstly, the level design being more linear was an intentional change. Beta Windy Valley showed that they wanted to include more open level design... However that philosophy was abandoned as producing all of the levels like this would be too time consuming and difficult.
Same with the lack of emphasis on slopes, this is not something that was a technical limitation either; they very much could've made more rolling, slope based level design even while working with the janky physics. They chose not to do that. I theorise that this was done to keep the game a one button affair excluding the hubs, but regardless.
Secondly, even the way the level design is structured is... Also not like the classic games. With the level design consisting of multiple setpieces strung along, without many repeating setpieces. I believe this was completely intentional and not done as a compromise as even Beta Windy Valley reflects this design philosophy.
In general, I don't really see how Adventure's compromises and changes are any different to 3D Blast changing the Sonic formula to fit isometric gameplay, nowadays more accurate 3D Classic Sonic gameplay is possible to achieve, however with the limited technology and resources in 1998. Even recreating Sonic physics in 3D at that time would've been a herculean task. So I don't really consider Sonic Adventure to be a terrible compromise. It's not my ideal Sonic and I certainly think there are better alternatives... However keeping in mind the time frame I can refrain from losing my marbles over the game not having as many passivity traps as the classic games.
5:16 is my favorite part honestly
Shouldn’t Classic Sonic keep staying in Sega Genesis or even eventually Sega Saturn Paper Sonic kind of like Paper Mario for Nintendo 64,right?
Sega CD,Sega 32X,Sega Saturn(CD-ROM support instead of cartridge hardware add-on),Sega Dreamcast.
One of the only compliments i have for this game is the lost world stage with the water buttons and riding the snakes that level annoys me other than that i love everything about this game.I never understood the complaint about the character models like people arguing about how sonic adventures character models are better or sonic dx are better i played the dreamcast version when i was like five and i have the sonic dx version for gamecube and i like both.
I think i don't think that deep into the games as much as everyone else i just enjoy the games lol.Another thing that bothers people is how the cutscenes look which also never really bothered me and i love the glitches in this game.
I love your videos though they are addictive ❤ keep em coming
Congrats on 1k man you deserve it
Well Sonic ‘06 wasn’t that good. Couldn’t it be Sonic Twist much better?
i think the spindash issue could be solved by putting a cooldown of sorts, maybe a second and a half.
Or just make his spindash function just like Tails and Knuckles's melee attacks. That is, if your stopped or moving slowly, then pressing X perfoms the spindash, but when running, pressing X makes Sonic curl into a ball
@@TheYiffingAtheist that would be really similar to the classic series, great idea. I feel like that would be a interesting mod
I never got to play Adventure when it came out and still haven't been able to (in terms of available systems). But amost every time I see gameplay, I feel like it's all spamdashing and..it makes me not want to play it? (I do still hope we get a new collection with at least adventure 1 and 2, if not also some other 3D titles)
@@davidbeer5015 I played through this game many times without using spamdashing, just don't spam the action button if you don't want to use it lol.
Also this only works for Sonic anyway, there are 5 other characters to play besides him
I played it and yeah, the skill floor is pretty high. Unfortunately, I'm not good at jumping.
I think it’s really cool you talk about mods. I think it’d be cool if you did mod videos.
If you wanna talk about a 3d sonic game that perfectly translates the classic physics in 3d look no further than project hero. It's literal 1 to 1 but unfortunately the project itself is going through many changes atm and currently it has no in level application. No levels or level ports made for it so it's potential is completely wasted
I'm aware of Project Hero. I hope something comes of it one day. Similar to Utopia in that way.
sa1's shitty physics are just so funny and thats why i love them
“SoN1c hAdD æ roUgHH trAnSITION 2 thReeEdE” -basically every sonic fan
4:13 finally,someone who agrees with my preference
It's absurd how good it feels to play this game.
...kinda sounds like SA had a lot in common with Melee.
I gotta recommend A Hat in Time if you like platforming honestly
@@themissingbits6375 noooice
You should make a Video offering Solutions to your problems since your complaining about them so much.
Classic Sonic in 3D? Well no.
I've kinda gotten used to you calling the common collectables "coins". I mean, realistically, they basically are. every time you get hit you can just think of it like sonic bribing the enemy not to kill him or something, and rings have been used as currency at times, so they kind of are the coins of sonics world
Man ur growing subs fast like sonic's speed
I'm gonna say it. I like the auto camera.
Well it really depends.
🎉awHOO!🎉 1K congrats!!!
I love ya dude!
Imo I love the controls, the game controls different but it’s still fun.
Did you finish the video
At the time no
13:58 yeah it’s wrong for you yet so many people like the spam dash gee I wonder why
13:42 it’s pretty fun to do for shortcuts and such
37:37 48:06
"You can't judge a game for what it isn't you have to judge it for what it is."
Something most sonic fans fail to understand. Maybe then games like Unleashed and the storybook games wouldn't have gotten shit on so heavily when they came out, and the view fans have of them now, in hindsight (which is that they're actually pretty good in a lot of areas, especially Unleashed) would've been present from the beginning, and we would've gotten another ambitious banger like Frontiers sooner.
Had us in the first 38 minutes and 40 seconds, not gonna lie