"Hey guys, long time no see. I just ran into these four turtles that collided with the Master Emerald, and now they're like Ninjas or something..... HEY WHERE YOU GOING!?!?"
My guess for why Metal Sonic is able to transform into a giant dragon like monster is from him copying Chaos' data. Sort of mimicking Perfect Chaos in his own way.
Not only that but metal sonic copied the data of team sonic shadow and chaos data which gave metal sonic his power to become metal madness and overlord when metal sonic copies data from a character he’s capable of using the very same power and or skill of said data example shadow’s chaos control
I feel like I know exactly what Charmy contributes to the Chaotix: he can fly. Really think about it. Vector is the muscle, and Espio is the ninja. But neither of them can get an eye in the sky. Charmy is small, and can fly. It's that simple.
Charmy: "Can I join you guys?" Vector: "You're a lousy detective, a lousy fighter, a lousy drummer, and we don't like you. Why would we let you join?" Charmy: "I can fly." Espio: "Welcome to the team."
I like to think the reason we never saw Metal Sonic speak again is because Eggman, while imprisoned, realized he couldn't give too much autonomy and self-awareness to his machines at the risk of them betraying him again while keeping them smart enough to solve complex problems, like the AI misalignment issue in our own world. In Sonic Adventure, Gamma developed his own mind and began destroying his robots without his knowledge. If all E-series robots are based on the same code, maybe Omega's hatred and resentment towards Eggman isn't really his own but was transferred from Gamma. Perhaps the reason Omega is imprisoned at the start of Heroes is because Omega tried to kill Eggman and destroy his robots the second he was activated. In a way, Gamma, Omega and Metal Sonic could represent the same concept, the blindness/naivety/ego of Eggman trusting his own machines and therefore his intellect. It backfires and he never built anything similar to Omega or this Metal Sonic that could directly harm him until he repeats the experiment in Sonic Colors with Orbot/Cubot who are idiots by design.
That would actually be really cool. Have Eggman chain down Metal's AI to prevent such a thing again. Lots of potential for Metal's AI to try to break free of this control. Kinda like my story rewrite, where he can sometimes override programming. That could lead to Metal forming a resentment toward Eggman and potentially breaking free one day to become independent? Such possibilities that they will never capitalize on.
@@Pariah6950 Oh yeah, it sure is amazing how many stories you can write with such simple premises. For example, why did his robots betray him? Because over time, Eggman got careless and didn't give himself enough time to properly program his robots and also didn't realize or refuse to believe that something was wrong behind his back since he lost control of Gamma. Why did he become careless? I think it's well established that Eggman, despite his intelligence, isn't the most mature person on the planet (cute badniks, multiple theme parks even in his own Egg Carrier, wanting to take over the whole world for some reasons), and when something doesn't go his way, he begins to lose his marbles. I think when he started dreaming of taking over the world, he didn't expect, with all his resources and intelligence, to be stopped over and over again by a single guy he can't even catch. And so it became an obsession and he started making mistakes/being impatient and getting crazier and crazier with each added defeat, like threatening Sonic's friends at gunpoint or blowing up the fucking the world in SA2, smashing it to pieces in Unleashed or enslaving everyone with a hypnotic ray in Colors. You can argue that Sonic's "vigilant" actions are morally gray because they drive Eggman to an escalation of violence that drives him to build more complex/huge machines (the cute robots from Sonic 1 are long gone) and making desperate and reckless attempts like the several gods he tried to awaken and control, as all that matters to him at this point is killing Sonic. Maybe around Adventure/Heroes Eggman begins to doubt his own genius for building machines capable of defeating Sonic on their own and begins to think that only the help of a deity can stop him (Chaos, Solaris, Gaia, Time Eater. I find it rather interesting that the first thing Eggman wants to do with the Time Eater is to "erase his previous defeats with Sonic"). You can even justify why Eggman uses the same machines in many games multiple times with this quote from Einstein: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." As for Cubot and Orbot, Eggman is said to have no common sense despite his 300iq, maybe he built those idiots deliberately so they could constantly challenge his design choices with stupid questions so he can make fewer mistakes but also have someone to talk to so they can monitor his sanity? Sonic on the other hand is the other side of the same coin, with every win he becomes careless and stops taking Eggman's threats or any danger seriously and his ego is boosted (lol). Wasting precious seconds instead of running from a black hole in Colors, doing everything himself. The attitude comparison with him and Classic in Generations is really telling I think (take Planet Wisp's music for example, from Classic's perspective is like a Bad Future but for Modern's it's calm and non-threatening) but I think the highlight has to be in Lost World where Sonic is so out of touch that he almost lost his friends to the villains. I wonder if the reason he's so obsessed with friendship in Forces is because of the events of Lost World and Tails, making him realize he has capable friends and doesn't have to do everything only . Regardless of what people think of Pontac & Graff's writing, I think it makes sense in terms of character development. Looks like Sonic learned his lesson after Lost World/Forces. Finally about Metal, I like your idea of him trying to free himself. Maybe there really is a Sonic in Metal Sonic. The games don't touch much on the amount of Sonic's datas in Metal like the OVA does. Maybe he is a perfect replica and for him (Sonic) to be enslaved and constrained by Eggman is unacceptable? With Ian in charge, maybe Sega will capitalize on these ideas, who knows. Sorry for that block of text, I needed to get that out of my system. I hope that was interesting.😅
@@roxanneceli8235 If Eggman HAS tried restraining Metal Sonic's AI (which he probably has, given it can't talk anymore), it doesn't quite seem to be doing much; Metal Sonic's STILL had instances where he's broken off from Eggman to do his own thing, like in Free Riders. :0
Your thoughts on Metal Sonic I totally agree with, they kinda never really touch on that stuff again. It actually reminds me of a scene from the IDW comics thats one of the few times they do touch upon Metal and his whole “copy of sonic” thing. In one arc Sonic gets infected with the metal virus, which turns all organic matter into basically robot zombies. At one point Metal sees this and actually dips a finger into a jar of the virus. Like the games he has no dialogue but the scene showing him hesitating before dipping in, and just staring at how the virus just slides right off confirming again he can never really be the real Sonic is really interesting.
The thing about Amy Rose is that she is Sonic's self-proclaimed girlfriend. At the end of the day, she's like Tails: She follows Sonic. She chases after Sonic. She wants to be with Sonic. Her entire life revolves around Sonic. She can not and will not live her life alone in her own little world and move on after meeting Sonic, because her entire life purpose and dream and motivation and goal is to be Sonic's girlfriend and marry him some day. This means that Amy must follow the same logic that Tails does as a character: Wherever Sonic goes, SHE goes. Amy's story in Sonic Adventure 1 began with establishing the fact that Amy is bored with normal, mundane life. Ever since the classic games, she's just been living a normal civilian life in Station Square and she absolutely hated it. Because, Amy is basically Sonic as a girl. She is a female version of Sonic, and what she wants in life is the exact same as him: to have fun exciting adventures and thrills. The only difference is that she loves Sonic and wants romance, where Sonic has no interest in that at all. Hence, she chases after him. She chases Sonic because she is in love with him, and also because Sonic makes life exciting, and she wants to share in that excitement. In fact, this very game, Sonic Heroes, emphasizes that strongly. Amy being a Speed-type and leading her own team on an adventure IS *PERFECT* for her character precisely because of that, and the foundation for it has already been laid by Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Advance and Sonic Advance 2. In Sonic Adventure 2, Amy is a playable character in the two player mode's Action Races as a racer against Sonic, Shadow and Metal Sonic. She is a bit slower, yes, but she's still there with the Homing Attack and stuff, and her own unique spin on things. Sonic Advance 1 has her play like she did in SA1 but Advance 2 builds on the new development in SA2 by having her play like the other characters with her own version of the Spin Dash and everything. Sonic Heroes is simply a progression of that even further. It is almost as if from Sonic Adventure 1 through the Advance games, SA2 to Heroes, she progresses from a "normal girl" to a "Sonic Hero". And on that note, Amy was never normal to begin with. In Sonic CD, the Japanese manual states that Amy's specialty is Tarot card reading and dowsing, that she likes mysticism and fortune telling. And this continues to be reaffirmed over the course of the franchise, even though it's never directly blatantly emphasized in a loud, bold way. It is frequently stated and shown that she has mystical abilities of some kind, to the point of having a "Sonic Radar" in her head that allows her to sense his location no matter where he is, among other things. Amy has always been a magical character. The thing was that she was a "Love Interest" while Tails is the "Sidekick", so she was introduced as an analogue to Princess Peach while Tails was Luigi. A damsel in distress vs an actual playable character. It wasn't that Amy was a "normal girl", it was that Amy was female AT ALL that separated her from Sonic, Tails and Knuckles power level-wise. And THAT was her struggle in SA1. It wasn't that she was a normal girl compared to them, the whole point is that she was the Damsel in Distress that needed to be rescued by Sonic, and she wanted to be more than that. It is like Tails' struggle of simply being the Sidekick who follows behind Sonic. Tails and Amy both had to overcome their initial role and become more than that, to become someone who can stand on equal grounds to Sonic, as you yourself have stated in this video in regards to Tails. Why shouldn't Amy be shown the same respect? This is one great thing about Amy that can't be said for a lot of characters of her archetype across media. Many love interests for superpowered characters are relegated to the sidelines and not allowed to be cool and powerful like the hero, when the sidekicks and so many others ARE. Amy disrupts that status quo by actively chasing after Sonic and making herself be part of his life and proving that she can take care of herself and doesn't need Sonic to rescue her all the time. So Sonic Heroes establishing Amy as the leader of Team Rose and the Speed-type who has the Sonic-like speed and spin attacks and homing attacks and tornado attacks is the perfect development of her character that she has always deserved to recieve. Amy Rose deserves better and this game did a good job of giving that to her. Unfortunately, it had the side effect of setting the groundwork for future games to outright ruin her character in an entirely different way, using her more aggressive behavior and the existence of the more demure and polite Cream for flanderization.
Wow someone that actually understand's Amy's Character its amazing to see it still happening. That being said a few additions. In SA1 did Amy originally not want to out grow her state as a damsel it was happen stance and her kindhearted nature that lead to her getting into the situation to make her grow until finally her righteous anger at Zero for badly hurting Amy made her fight and win over a foe she before through impossibel for someone like her to defeat which ultimately gave her the realization that she doesn't have to be a damsel that if she wants action she can become a Hero just like Sonic. I do like how in 06 Amy growth actually is even recognized by Sonic letting her deal with Silver which is something I couldn't see SA 1 or 2 Sonic do. While I love that Amy was given the change to grow in Heroes do I have to say that her pre-Team fight dialogue is pretty bad (to be fair the same is true for almost all Team fights) especially the really badly executed SA2 call back with the "marry me" point which made the cute Joke in SA2 seem far less cute all of a sudden. While you are right that Amy's love defines her character just as much as it does Tails (with the difference being that with Tails is platonic rather than romantic love) so do I also like it when she just like Tails actually has a life outside of just Sonic. Which is why I like that she has her own relationships with Characters like Cream and does things without having Sonic to necessarily be involved like wanting to participate in the World Grandprix in Sonic Rider just for the thrills.
Honestly, to me the fact Eggman wants to dominate the WHOLE world makes enough sense for Knuckles to join, after all, Angel Island is a part of the world, if Eggman wants to take it all of it, it puts the Master Emerald in danger, because you can't wait until the deed is done to protect it from the Eggman army, it's better to stop him while he is trying than after he succeeds
I wear a gold necklace that was a hand me down from my father. My parents got mathing, unisex necklaces when they were younger. They stopped wearing them after awhile, so his was basically nit being used. I just tried it on, amd he let me keep it. I always wear it as a reminder that they've always been there for me. I know Vector's bling was probably never meant to have a deeper meaning, but I like to imagine it was also a gift from somebody.
30:35 here is my explanation for rouge not actually telling shadow: First: rouge wasn't manipulating shadow here as we saw in sa2 she grew a bond him(kinda) also she is ginuenly concerned about him as appears in many instances Scondly: do you remember the cut dialog in sa2 where rouge tells shadow that he might not be the real one and that the pod was never found? I think she probably didnt tell him because she wasn't sure if he was the same shadow wich also explains how surprised and broken she was when she thoght he was a copy at the end AND also when eggman tells shadow he has no past(i know that was metal sonic but he copied eggman so yeah) he might be referring to that eggman found the actual pod that the original shadow fell from and rouge just doesn't want to shove fake memories into someone that they dont belong into
@@Pariah6950 that's a very reoccurring problem in sonic games because for some reason, there is always moments where you feel like there must something here we haven't seen or heard about like the knuckles thing because he came to sonic with tails on the tornado so it might be possible that there was something between tails and knuckles here we haven't seen or like sa2 where rouge doesn't take the emeralds or never explaining why eggman wanted to destroy earth So i dont know why these things keep getting missed like do sonic team have a problem creating cutscenes or they couldn't connect it with gameplay?
1:05:54 It was established in the Sonic Forces comic 'Stress Test' that Chaos returned some time after SA2 and is now guarding the Master Emerald every now and then so Knuckles can do other things.
Oo I really like that explanation actually, takes the honestly pretty weird reason for him being back in battle and recontextualizes it into fixing a long-standing series issue
I recall the Archie comics doing something similar with him to explain why the oceans weren't destroyed from the world splitting during the events of Unleashed.
My guess for the "copying data" thing, is that it had nothing to do with the giant dragon form, aside from the data gathered from that Chao and the frog on Chaos. Instead, I think it's basically so he can get a better understanding of how all the different teams fight, to predict their movements and what they might do next. It's a very mechanical, methodical approach to it.
In other words… he may know everything the heroes are going to do, but it doesn’t matter because they know everything he’s going to do… strange… isn’t it?
As a huge Gamma fan and huge Omega fan, I'm glad they didn't bring Gamma back. Gamma's story was over and Omega is such an amazing one-note character that works better as a mainstay. Shadow's return I think works in this game and only this game, I hate how it led to his flanderization and they never even tried to write him off again
I’m quite a fan of how the Sonic Universe comics handled the dynamic personally, with Omega initially being loyal to Eggman and sent on a search and destroy mission to end Gamme, which turns into and amazing fight between essentially a berserker and an assassin. Ending with as Gamma is fading, transferring all of his data and memories into Omega, lighting the fire of rebellion in him and allowing Omega to break from Eggmans control
@@Laekith the more accurate information is that gamma gave omega a soul not his memories or anything though the exchange gamma gave to omega being a walking arsenal while he’s an assassin was epic
@@Laekith the comic does have him be extremely angry at eggman beforehand but went to do because eggman threatened to have send in a vault for another decade
One thing that disappoints me about team sonic( and the series as a whole really,)is that we don't get much chemistry between knuckles and tails, they're only ever talk to eachother through sonic or when sonic is around. They kinda started off on the right foot though with tails and knuckles hanging out on the plane at the start though. This is something that the 2nd sonic movie does well, and really wish we get to see the 2 be a duo sometime
one thing i feel should had a brief mention is how team rose has the same general plot that amy story had in sa1 . amy protects a bird , cream and big want to rescue their frog and chao friend . at the start they don't have the confidence and as stated in the video they are way over their head. a nobody fisherman and a little girl , and by the end they not only they acomplish their goal they grow in confidence . the difference is that amy had her character arc alone . but that in turn helps her be the catalist for big's and cream development , not unlike sonic who also helps those around him grow like tails in sa1 or shadow in sa2.
I love how the story wraps up for this game. Sonic casually offers Metal the chance at a rematch-not as enemies-but as rivals. After everything he (and his friends) went through, it is SONIC himself, the person Metal persecuted most, who offers his hand in potential friendship. This speaks volumes about Sonic's "just keep going" attitude, and the positivity that allows him to not only bring people together, but also bring out the best in everyone. Metal's schemes were ultimately some kind of breakdown, so he doesn't take it personally. In the end, Sonic is chased by the people that love him, which Metal should be keen in seeing he just doesn't have. But he's then given a chance when the characters most notable for having once been abandoned stay by him. It's just so damn great, but a shame that nothing actually came from this legit tease.
I wouldn't say nothing came from this tease. Whatever you think of Sonic Rivals, I did like that it's Shadow who partners up with and works with Metal in Rivals 2.
Metal Sonic turned into a dragon monster because of the Chaos data he copied from Chocola and Froggy. It’s supposed to be his attempt at becoming a Perfect Chaos-like god of destruction.
i think another issue with constantly using the same characters over and over is that it shrinks the world down. it doesnt feel like theres really anything to see, because we just keep seeing the same people over and over. theres not that many people, or theres just not many places to go, or both. the real world we were saving was 20 people split between three small islands. and its no wonder the chaotix cant get work, everyone can just do their own detective work! theres only 2 suspects anyways and one of them is literally everyones best friend.
To me, Charmy is supposed to be the hype man of the Chaotix. He's the heart of the group that keeps everyone pumped up and optimistic going on their missions (and also there to handle more inconsequential chores). Dumb fun fact: While you may already know this, Espio's name comes from the word 'Espionage' (which is the role he fills).
The issue with the characters has indeed become a huge double edged sword, and the series has definitely been paying for it. Because now the series to either stuff these characters into one game and devaluing them, or just ignore them entirely. But because Sonic Heroes established all of these fan favorite characters, people will naturally want to see more of them and get upset when they don't appear. You see that right now where one of the most vocal complaints about the recent games is how nobody but Sonic & Tails are important anymore. So the series is kind on in a rock and a hard place. The genie has been let out of the bottle you can say.
26:58 - In SA1, Beta was rebuilt after his destruction. The new Beta shared the same color scheme, but looked different and was more powered up. I always assumed Omega was built with some of Gamma's parts because of the color scheme match up, and that he inherited Gamma's desire to destroy his brethren to save them, but that it got twisted some in transition.
Rouge is not trying to take advantage of Shadow to help her with her goal. She does not know if Shadow is the real Shadow or just an android. She actually isn't selfish at all and is being cautious for the sake of her friend. That's why she asks Omega if he thinks that Shadow is a robot.
Possible. But not at first. She didn't even know Shadow androids existed until halfway into the story. I guess she could maybe guess that the one she finds in Eggman's base is a robot copy. But the real issue is that there's nothing hinting toward her reason for not telling him at all.
The thing with knuckles not guarding the master emerald, is that most games tend to be world conquering scenarios and if the world gets taken over then it would only be a matter of time before angel island get taken over as well.
I'd just have Knuckles find someone to help him guard it. Maybe also have him get a security system. That way he can leave the island, yet get called back if the threat is too big for his subordinates.
I’ve had a theory as to why Knuckles is no longer hanging out on Angel island. I think after the events of adventure 1 one of two things happened, either Angel island can no longer fly having fallen one too many times or as long as the master emerald is together the island will float regardless. It was made clear in adventure 2 that the master emerald can shrink down when needed, since knuckles was able to carry the thing around easily after he put it back together. I think that’s just what he does now, he keeps the emerald pocket sized so he can leave the shrine and live a more carefree life with his friends. I could be wrong since it’s been a while since I’ve played through adventure but it’s the best reason I can think of that can fill that particular plot hole
Knuckles is suppose to be guarding it but considering that they are facing a world crisis he needs to be there bisides its a lot easier than dragging the master emerald into every single polt they make especially since hes one of the main trio
I always figured the Master Emerald had to literally be on the island in order to make it float, what's more believable to me is either Knuckles decided to have the island go back into the Ocean so it isn't isolated from the rest of the world (showing his growth from the lonely dude he used to be) or that Tails like built him a giant ultra-secure safe to keep the Master Emerald...safe...while Knuckles is out helping Sonic or whatever, or hell maybe Cream loans Gemerald to Knuckles any time the world needs saving so the Master Emerald has a bodyguard at all times, actually now that i think about it, it would be a really cute expanation if the reason why Cream and her Mom weren't in Sonic Forces was because Knuckles set them up a home on Angel Island, so they could just hide out there away from all the crazy shit happening during the story, and since Gemerald is with them Eggman just didnt bother trying to take over Angel Island (not to mention Cream could probably do some major damage to any mech Eggman sends, especially with Cheese by her side AND Gemerald 🤣🤣🤣
Three reasons why Knuckles leaves Angel Island. 1: Tikal and Chaos are active now. They can guard it while he's gone. 2: Sonic and Tails have helped him so much in the past, it's only fair he help them back. 3: Eggman wants to take over the world. Angel Island is a part of the world.
I hate how what happens to tikal and chaos at the end of adventure is so confusing, I though that they were treated like western representations of ghosts in medias where they just die for real after they complete their goals(chaos stopped wanting to destroy everything to avenge the chaoes and tikal didn't need to protect the world from chaos anymore) but turns out that's not the case a'd they just randomly show up in spin offs like sonic battle or the sonic forces comics
So much you have brought up echoes my sentiment so much! Especially the bit about the game mimicking Sonic 3&K in structure! Bullet Station is so much like Launch Base! Another detail I like is how Knuckles in idle dialogue expresses frustration at Eggman deceiving them again. Shadow makes a comment about Grand Metropolis being artificial and him feeling at home in it. Sonic makes a reference to "escape from the city" in his idle chatter in Grand metropolis too. The game's writing is underrated imo. I also like how Team Rose just sneaks onto and commandeers a ship to get to Final Fortress. The Transport tunnels from Hot Shelter in Rail Canyon moving the Shadow android capsules to Final Fortress, Eggman making the Chaotix! On the point about Sonic and Knuckles dynamic, and I know this is gonna sound weird, but they had that arc in SA2 via Knuckles' rap songs. The Lyrics depict Knuckles arc in the game and the last few songs go over Sonic and Knuckles mending their animosity more. They REALLY crammed as much stuff in every cranny of that game lol. I would have liked your idea though nonetheless. I actually disagree that Shadow's return undermines his death. He loses all his memories and that's still a very real consequence. Remember in SA2 Shadow says independent of his memories his still true to his goal and this is a true test of that claim and plays into his arc in his own game heavily. Omega was actually put in the room to be recon for Shadow if he got out of his capsule according to Sonic Channel bio. It also says he was also made to support Shadow, so that suggests Eggman had plans to convert Shadow to his allegiance. I am SO Glad you brought up the thing with Rouge. I get told that makes no sense even though its very much in her character. The Shadow Android Team Dark finds came out of the Egg Albatross. it was stated its transporting Eggman's weapons. Bullet Station was a weapons transportation center. In the level you see all the capsules the same kind Shadow was in and the Androids at the end of the game. Also I 100000% Agree about Amy in Heroes! This was her PEAK in this game imo! I am SO thankful someone else mentions this! Heroes was the perfect escalation of her ARK in SA1! Your assessment of Heroes story at the end is one I very much also echo. Heroes is in many ways the most quintessential Sonic game story and structure imo. I also 100% agree with the point about Knuckles. Been saying this for a while as well. If anything, give him his own spinoff. I disagree with the point about Amy though but I can see where you are coming from and I don't completely disagree.
I love how many details this game has. Some you mention I cut for time, others I didn't know. But I totally forgot to mention the Shadow capsules in Bullet Station. I think bringing Shadow back in general undermines the concept of the character. However the amnesia was a really good way to do it that still does sort of respect the original intention of the character. I'll talk about that in the Shadow story video. I've never heard that detail about Omega. Cool idea. Now if only it was in the game.
glad to see I'm not the only one who sometimes prefer a very simple but fun story over something big, deep and serious. Also in Knuckles case I would argue that his problem is the same as with Shadow, that he was supposed to be a one time character but was such a fan favourite that they decided to keep him around. Seriously, if you think about it, Knuckles was pretty much Shadow before Shadow was a thing.
if you want more about Metal's identity crisis then look to the IDW Comic as the first two story arcs expand on this the first arc however leans far more into it than the 2nd but both arcs explore this amazingly. id specifically recommend the mini story "Reflection" it's solely dedicated to Metal and his thoughts on the subject but since the IDW Comic establishes that metal can only talk in his Neo and Overlord forms and he's in his base form it's made even more beautiful, tragic, and for Metal himself rage inducing. to put it in the game apologists words. "He literally has no mouth but must scream".
After watching the new sonic movies I wanted to remind myself of my childhood and searched videos about the games. I ABSOLUTELY love how you build these videos. Not only you bring up what the story is truly about but you also explain all the little details. It has been a blast to watch your videos. Thank you for that!
There's so much to dig into with this game, having 4 campaigns, Sonic's highspeed chase and encounter with Shadow later, Team Dark's suggestion as to whether he's a robot or not, the Froggy and Chocola Chaos data Metal Sonic was after, the fake Eggmans he'd made, the real Eggman calling to Team Chaotix for help, and strange requests, why they wanted Cheese in their Team Rose scene, and potential theme song lyric or stage motif connections!
Plot twist: knuckles learned in SA2 that he can shrink the Master Emerald and stick it in his pocket. That's why he's away from Angel Island! Yeah, that's always been weird. I like how Ian Flynn dealt with that in the IDW comics where that does cause a problem and then he sticks around on the Island and only really gets involved when stuff comes to him.
Great video! In regards to Knuckles' dialogue and characterization, I do believe I read that his original personality is one that is somewhat tough and serious yet always honorable (though gullible sometimes).
The thing I like most about Espio (mostly in Heroes, this kind of disappears in later appearances) is that, with the way he carries himself, he comes off like some tryhard roleplayer, as if he's some kind of chunibyou so obsessed with the idea of being a ninja that he actually went and did it. Most of that just comes from how needlessly exaggerated his mannerisms are to a goofy extent that gives off chuni vibes, but I think there's something there. The more understated version of Espio we get in things like Generations doesn't give off that same vibe at all, and I find Espio a lot less cool because of it.
I like that they sort of brought this kind of concept back in The Murder Of Sonic The Hedgehog, where they had Espio being this eloquent, calm, and intelligent poet, then the reveal happens and he's sought out as being a gullible dipshit who really ain't all that he seems
I disagree with the idea that Super Knuckles and Super Tails being a problem. The Super Saiyen problem was one because the concept was presented as a chosen one story first. That one saiyen, the Super Saiyen, would rise up and defeat Frieza to free their face from his torment. Vegeta believed he was “the” Super Saiyen, not wishing to achieve a form any Saiyen can do. The story didn’t present it as a simple transformation AT FIRST, but a unique one tied to a specific role. It became a problem after turns out any saiyen can do it if they’re strong enough, taking away what made it special during the Frieza saga. Super Sonic is completely different. I think the idea of anybody capable of having a super like form make it far more interesting than just a transformation exclusive to Sonic. It’s a good to separate it from Dragon Ball’s version. The idea of the Chaos Emeralds or simply Chaos Energy granting the users ultimate power and have them transform in any shape or form makes more sense to me than only someone like Sonic can use them. In fact in makes Sonic seem a bit Marty sue-ish that only character like him can transform into a super from. It doesn’t even have to be a Super form. The idea has been explored before, like in Sonic Movie 2 or the Fleetway comics where Eggman gained a transformation because of Chaos Energy. It doesn’t make the Super form less impactful, but it rises the stakes even higher in that anybody could became powerful thanks to the emeralds. Beside, the transformation ain’t something Sonic can do on his own. He needs the power of the emeralds with him, or some power equivalent to it (The Master Emerald) to achieve it. So when the table is set, that makes the transformation all the more exciting, despite a power almost anyone is capable of wielding, you’re excited because it’s Sonic. And who says the same can’t be said about Tails and Knuckles. Heck, you can create unique powers for Tails and Knuckles, not just giving them the same set of power of Super Sonic. So let’s say someone like Cream gain control over the chaos emeralds, you could call her transformation “Super Cream” but it doesn’t that’s to follow the same rules as Super Sonic. Maybe she gains the powers to control the wild life of the entire world, or since with her connection with Cheese, a being related to chaos, control the ocean. Just a silly example, but you get what I mean? There are factors you could contribute to the idea, such as mental capacity and willpower, but that would be going into headcanon territory. Overall, it makes no sense why Tails and Knuckles didn’t transform into their super forms and were given these weird bubbles. It was a huge waste of potential and would she brought back transformations that are still believe by fans today. It personally rubbed me the wrong way, and to this day, I think that’s one of the many aspects of the game they would have done better. But that’s just me
I understand. And I think it would be fine for a few other characters to go super, if it is properly earned narratively. Sonic and Tails R is a good example of that. But there's no getting around the fact that Shadow was explicitly created to be a creature that could control Chaos Energy. Why go to such trouble trying to create such a being if any rando anthro could do it? Also, Sonic kinda is a Mary Sue. Part of his deal is that he can do anything, there's a whole song about it lol. He always knows the right thing to say and do. Whenever another character is struggling, Sonic always knows the way to bring them back up. That's just how he is. Sonic is intentionally without fault as a character. It's not just about him as a literal character, but what he represents. Sonic is the good that exists in everyone. The Emeralds are fueled by the thoughts and feelings of people. Sonic is the avatar of everyone's happiness, love, bravery, kindness and hope. When he fights evil, it is the good of everyone coming together that is really what's fighting. It's not just some character powering up. But if anyone could do it, it would lose this meaning and become just that. The question to be asked is why should Tails and Knuckles be able to go super? Is it because it is right for the Sonic series and them as characters? Or because you like them being able to? The same applies to my thoughts about how frequently characters show up. People just like the characters and want them around, even it's not really the right thing for the series.
@@Pariah6950 I think the idea of Shadow being created harness that much power might be given to the idea that was built to be even more power than other people who are just as capable. Sure, Tails can go super, but Shadow was built to wield and handle such power at a much greater scale. That’s my headcanon at least. We’ll probably never have a proper explanation to this in the game lore, but I like to believe anybody can wield such a power but it takes strong will and mental capacity to wield it. Again, that’s my interpretation of things. Also I can see where you’re coming from with Sonic being a bit of a Mary Sue. Most Game protagonists are kind of like that, since they were made with the player controlling them in mind, they’re the main hero after all. I think it’s outside media, like the cartoons and comics, where they try and make him a more believable character. I think Tails and Knuckles should go Super because in the context of the game they went through all this trouble together, the three of them. It’s only natural for the three to defeat this ultimate evil of Metal Sonic once and for all. Not to mention, it would just look cooler. I don’t think there’s an objective way of looking at what’s “right” for the Sonic series since the franchise has plenty of iterations and identities that it just boils down to if it would be fine for what the current game is telling. And I think adding Super Tails and Hyper Knuckles fits in with the fun narrative of Sonic Heroes. That’s my Take.
@@Pariah6950 Umm no Sonic isn't a Mary Sue at all wtf are you actually talking about? There's a huge difference between a central morally paragon character (I don't think he's exactly morally paragon), and a character who's story, universe, quantum rules and the people bends, molds, breaks and sacrificed just to wank this particular character off. If Sonic was an actual Mary Sue, the cast would nowhere near be as interesting and endearing as it is because they would be only used to suck Sonic off and nothing more. "Sonic is intentionally without fault as a character" Umm what about his cockiness? Impatience? Recklessness? Overconfidence? Stubbornness? Short-tempered? And oh yeah the famous Hydrophobia? (He can't swim) Did you know that in the Adventure games, Sonic gets Arrested? Gets finessed by other characters (Eggman, Shadow, even Knuckles in S3&K)? Has moments of frustration and sadness? Showing concerns like for his friends? Has moments of surprise and confusion? Talks about feelings and worries? Even asked for help since he can't do everything by himself? So yeah Sonic really isn't a mary sue, nor should it excuse super forms being exclusive whatsoever. That really adds nothing to the franchise at all and instead regresses it. It doesn't even make any sense either internally and externally but that's a debate for another day. "Sonic is the avatar of everyone's happiness, love, bravery, kindness and hope. When he fights evil, it is the good of everyone coming together that is what's really fighting. It's not just some character powering up. But if anyone could do it, it would lose its meaning and become just that." I do not like the implications of this at all, because it sounds like Sonic is the only person who is that and no other person could ever hope to be that. Like e.g. Cream; a character who's established to have nothing really anything evil about her, is just out of luck to go Super? Is it because she is secretly never as good of a person as JesusChuckNorris Sonic is? What good does the 'good of everyone' do if it's still entirely dependent on one specific person and no one else? I'm not trying to be a dick here but this sounds toxic asf ngl. And I hope you start to understand why people are rightfully pissed the hell off with the whole "only male hedgehogs can go super" bs.
Here's my team dark pitch rouge makes a deal with shadow that if they find Eggman's treasure then rouge would tell shadow about his past. Then at the end, Shadow asks rouge about his past. She says that they never found Eggman's treasure so she's not going to tell him and go steal the master emerald
I agree with the last part of "every character must appear in every Sonic game from now on." I call it "Sonic and Friends," where the other characters are just there to cheer up Sonic at the final fight and then congratulate him when he wins. Their personalities turned into that pretty much.
Pariah would've preferred if the series had more episodic stories with one off Sonic characters? I have a feeling he's gonna enjoy the storybook series lol
I love the video! Your Sonic story videos are very well written and have many good points. I may not fully agree with all of them, but to me that doesn't take away from the major points you make. Also, it's refreshing to see a middle ground for once for a long form Sonic video! You don't hate on it the whole time, but you don't overpraise it for no reason. It nice to see and I look forward to watching all the rest of the videos! Also I think you forgot an important reason why all the other character's lives revolve around Sonic after they meet him.........merchandise!
1:12:15 - I think they should've made Team Rose be the game's Hard Mode, because they're more normal people, so it should be harder for them to get through the same forces. Set the levels up to be more challenging for them.
@Ultimate L but it's especially weird in situations like this where they're all doing the same thing doesn't matter if your team rose or team dark you're still going to be facing down eggman's armada
@Ultimate L I know but I'm agreeing with the opening comment here it makes more sense if the more inexperienced characters are the hard mode not the easy(I'm not saying that using different characters with different levels of skill for difficulty modes doesn't make sense in fact I think it's quite a reasonable explanation but I just think how they're doing it feels a bit backwards)
51:11 then he does take over the world in Sonic Forces and STILL doesn't pay the Chaotix. Can't belive they never addressed it in Forces. How embarrassing.
This really was the end of the Sonic Adventure saga from the standpoint that it's Sonic's adventure from his point of view, and is set within this idea that there's a larger play beyond Eggman running the show (be it Chaos/Tikal in SA1, Gerald/Shadow in SA2, and Metal here). Imo, Shadow's game seemed to be the epilogue that fully draws a line under this era for Sonic, but instead of it being Sonic's point of view, its Shadow's and true to the idea, he really does put the past behind him upon his realisation of what actually happened.
I owe a lot to Sonic Heroes. It was my introduction to the Sonic series, which I love, flaws and all, but also my introduction to video games as a whole, leading me down the path to want to create games myself. The environments, characters and game mechanics are all so interesting and out there that they showed me just what is capable in making video games. Sonic Heroes, to me, is an abridged Sonic game, showing us the base characters and their relationships, while the environment and unique gameplay indulge the senses of its players. Hang Castle is one of my favourite stages, due to how the level is designed around gravity swapping. The Eggman Statue that also shows a Metal Sonic statue when you turn upside down is a brilliant set piece that builds into the level’s main mechanics, while being nice foreshadowing. I would personally love another Sonic Heroes, or at least another game that utilises the team-based mechanics, because this game means a lot to me, and I feel like the mechanics were too unique to use for just one game.
To be honest I love the sonic heroes story. Like you stated it may not be nearly as well written as sa2 but it's still a really good sonic story and the whole arc of metal sonic going insane in this game after all his defeats in sonic 4 is probably one of the most amazingly epic things in the franchise. Alongside sonic and the black knight ending ,sonic unleashed and obviously both adventures games. And I am really hoping sonic frontiers has this level of asowmeness that unleashed and black knight did especially since the setting of the game seems to be similar to the latter. But yeah sonic heroes. Pretty dang good story any crazed sonic fan can bite their teeth into and enjoy
been bingewatching all your stuff for a day now lol, keep it up :) grew up during the age of conflicting sonic games (06, secret rings & black knight, unleashed & shadow the hedgehog) so it'll be cool to see when you eventually get to those lol
So it's a stretch.. but I can't shake the feeling the sonic riders series takes place in this continuity, the futuristic style is really only seen in these games, and it makes me wonder if the master emerald even exists here 👀
I don’t mind Amy defeating Eggman or that the same sonic characters appear throughout the series. I do wish knuckles leaving angel island was explained but I don’t mind him being in other games. I think some characters are too essential to just ignore for long periods imo. I understand your points but I think it could be solved by simply having explanations.
One aspect I like about the story of Sonic heroes is Team Chaotix and their overall importance to it. Out of the 4 main campaigns, theres is the one with the least amount of stakes. It is basically, "do work for client to get money to pay rent". While the others have more "important" stories. Team Sonic must stop "eggman", Team Dark are formed out of mutual interests. Shadow wants to recover his memories, Rouge wants treasure and omega wants sweet old revenge. While Team Rose is find and rescue friends who were kidnapped. And yet the campaign that has the biggest impact on the twist is the one that feels out of place. The one that feels, "wait, why is this even here"? Also helps that the Chaotix trio are more or less reintroduced to the series with Sonic Heroes. Since Knuckles Chaotix wasn't received that well. And not many people would've played it as it was a spin off game. While Sonic heroes is a main series game.
bro, i am surprised that i found such a good channel that hasn't been discovered by a lot of people yet, emphasis on "yet" cuz i can feel that you're going places man, i'm currently binge watching all your sonic videos and it's been a blast i hope you keep doing these, i enjoy them quite a lot :)
I find to be odd that a lot of important dialogue that explains more about the Team Battles only occurs in-battle, and the majority of players never hear those dialogues because each character has one line for when one of their teammates fall off, and the one who fall off won't have it's line triggered, making very hard to see some lines because of how bad these Team Battles were made, since most of the time all teammates die instantly. People say that Amy doesn't really care about Chocola or Froggy when they meet Sonic, but that's only by watching the cutscene, because in the actual battle characters actually show concern and talk about this "kidnapping thing", this is a major plot point for Team Rose but it's perfectly possible most players won't hear those lines. Same applies to Team Dark and Team Sonic, in the cutscene Team Sonic doesn't show any concern about Shadow, that only happens in in-game dialogue where they are actually worried about him not remembering them. I think those lines should have been triggered as the battle goes on and not only when a certain teammate falls off. I think Chamy serves as a great contrast with the other members, while Espio and Vector are much more serious, Charmy helps have a more fun chemistry in general. While being "useful" for an actual team is really debatable because the same could be applied to Big, Cream or Omega, those characters didn't really have any reason to be created other than filling trios, Omega's entire existence doesn't really serve for anything other than making the gameplay concept work, I think Charmy follows the same, his role doesn't impact anything plot-wise, but his presence is nice to give more contrast and fun to his team. A nice thing to add about Espio's character is that in Japanese he tends to use different vocabulary than the rest of the cast, a good example is that all other characters when leveling up they'll say the modern Japanglish "レベルアップ(_reberu appu!_)", but Espio is the only one who says "レベル上昇 (_reberu jyousho!_)", which is an actual Japanese word for "ascending/rise", which I think gives a more classic Japanese style to him to fit with his ninja character. Your point about the way Sega is using Sonic characters is really interesting and I can agree mostly, but at the same time I think I still don't like those one-off characters that only appear once or a few times, while you can create full plots in one single product, the more interactions I see with a character the more I feel connected with it and feel that it's important, which is also why I don't like series that always has one new character in one episode and never show up again, it feels like none of that was that important, like it doesn't belong there at all. I think it should be a mix between the two sides, I don't think characters should show up once or just a few times, but at the same time pls don't have the modern games bullshit where not only there is absolutely no reason for characters like Knuckles or Amy to appear but also being horribly written and out-of-place. If Shadow only appeared in SA2 I don't think he would still be nearly as popular as how it went, so having characters people like appearing recurrently is something I still like and can totally understand why Sega does that. It might undermine and give less value to specific moments but what can I say, I don't want Shadow to only appear in SA2 even if that's my favorite game (In other words, I want to have more voice lines of the Japanese cast while it's voice actors are still alive lol).
Yeah, what is it with Sonic Team putting story details in gameplay in a way that makes them so hard to see? SA2, Shadow and I think 06 all have those lines in the final bosses that you have to go out of your way to hear, and this as well. So weird. I like Charmy, it's just from a practical perspective it's funny how useless he is. I think of like Sly Cooper and how each member has something to contribute skills-wise. I totally agree about Espio's speech. His choice of words in Japanese is a great gimmick that makes him stand out and adds to the ninja vibe. And his voice actor does a killer job. This is where I think spinoffs could have done so much for the series. We could have had more games focusing on other characters and their lives outside of getting involved with Sonic.
I would freaking love a spin-off game focusing on the Chaotix trio and their strange cases. Vector, Espio and Charmy have awesome chemistry with each other.
Forces also does this with the final judgment level, casually explaining that Infinite and the jackals were created by Eggman all along, and then you destroy it the lab and it doesn’t get addressed again.
59:35 Nah man he said it himself, His purpose has always been to destroy Sonic, thus solidifying himself as the True Sonic. He's a machine limited by the very purpose he was given. His ambition to destroy Sonic by attempting to out-Sonic Sonic will always be doomed to fail and it is impossible for him to go beyond that even by trying to do so because of his purpose. We can't all just deathbeam Sonic from across the park while he's on a date I guess lol.
I can't say I agree with everything here, but this made me think. A lot. And I really appreciate the depth you took one of my favourite games in the series.
Amy was made as Sonic's love interest, chasing Sonic just as Sonic chases the next adventure. If she's meant to run after Sonic on his adventures, then logically she has to be able to do much the same stuff he can, even fighting Eggman.
You gave a good explanation for why Tails and Knuckles didn't use super forms, and Sonic's relation to the emeralds is only strengthened by Unleashed. I'm just wondering why (lore-wise) Silver of all characters got to go super.
I figure it's just a case of him being like Sonic. He's just randomly one of the lucky few with that ability. Shadow is surprised when he does Chaos Control, so I think it checks out even more based on that.
@@Pariah6950 I read theory that hes like a future descendent of sonic or shadow so I think it make sense if he carried it genetically Though I feel you probably wouldent be into that explanation I think
Yeah I could understand the explanation, but at the same time, I think Knuckles specifically should be able to go super due to his connection to the Master Emerald, and the Chaos Emeralds by extension. He used the Master Emerald to neutralize the emeralds in SA2, and literally punched Sonic out of his super form in 3&K. The latter was likely a mix of Sonic being caught off guard and having only used the emeralds for two games, and Knuckles possibly using his familiarity with Chaos energy to neutralize them right then and there.
One theory I and some others have about the Rouge thing was that Shadow is informed of the events of SA2 - he just doesn't care. He's very specific on what he wants from eggman in both the dub and sub. Not to know what happened, but for his memory to be returned. He recognizes Sonic and makes a joke about Rouge, implying he knows who these people are. It's possible that Rouge did tell him, but he wants to be able to remember himself. This arc is continued in S06, where he decides that he doesn't need his memory to define who he is, as he has friends around him.
That is an interesting detail. Makes me wonder if Cream was supposed to originally be a romantic interest for Tails, considering Amy and Rouge are both that for the other equivalents. I could definitely see Tails having a childlike crush on her working.
55:16 Consider this. The "Super Saiyan Problem" is due to that higher levels of power can only be achieved by the Saiyan. Unlike Dragon Ball, the Chaos Emeralds in Sonic allow ANY user to obtain infinite power. Then when you consider every other game where allies other Sonic get to become Super, whether it be Shadow, Silver, or even Blaze the Cat, if team Sonic is going to go Super it's not out of the question for all three to reveal their super forms instead of that weird shield thing.
Pariah's take here was weirdly flaccid, there's just so much wrong with it. Tails I get, but Knuckles...longstanding guardian of the Master Emerald itself really can't transform? Yeah, right. And then there's the implications of Sonic keeping the majority of power for himself, which is thematically supposed to be what Metal is doing. Yeah, Sonic still has friends while Metal doesn't, but it means more when those friends are giving all they can, in kind. The bubble shields naturally confuse, because they deny this. They suggest that Sonic is the one with the real power, and his friends are just there. That's a totally bad outcome for a game all about everyone playing their part as best they can.
@@megamillion5852 Honestly conflicted between both sides on this. Wouldn't allowing it in Heroes put SA1 and SA2 into question, since it would make the point that Knuckles could have stepped in to help back then too?
@@arsenal4444 In SA1's case, it seems pretty clear that it's about performance. Sonic having the most experience going super makes him the most obvious candidate. Tails mentions that Sonic should be able to use the emeralds' "real power," with Knuckles chiming in that as much as he'd hate to admit it, he "thinks Tails is right on this one." This dialogue wouldn't make sense if Knuckles were referring to the pisitive energies of the emeralds. Why would he hate to admit this...because Tails is right? Does he no longer trust Tails and his intelligence? Very unlikely. (This also further emphasizes Shadow's role in the Final Hazard, considering he was fundamentally designed to be a Super Sonic stand in, and why it would make less sense to have given him a bubble shield, if we felt inclined to wonder)
@@megamillion5852 It seems to me that your framing of the point on SA1 is that the option was only one or the other, for the sake of greater effectiveness, whereas I don't see why both going super is not an option that would have been altogether superior to choosing either one. Which just circles back to my previous comment. For SA2 you seem to just point out that it would not make sense for shadow to get the 'super bubble', which I agree with, for those same reasons you gave....nonetheless idk how that tangent addresses what I said before, which is that if Knuckles went super in Heroes, it would beg the question of why he didn't also do so in SA2 as that would have helped tilt the odds in their favor.
I think a good word to use when discussing story elements in Sonic Heroes (and good number of other Sonic games actually) is Ludonarrative. I've only ever seen this word used in the phrases “Ludonarrative Dissonance” and “Ludonarrative Harmony” but I think the word works really well on it’s own for these types of discussions. If you don’t know this word, “ludo” refers to gameplay elements, so Ludonarrative is the intersection of gameplay elements and story elements. Not every video game has an actual plot with a beginning, middle, and end, but EVERY video game has a Ludonarrative, and I’d actually argue a strong Ludonarrative is required for a game to be good. Just to sort of further illustrate my point look at a series like Smash Bros. Smash Bros games rarely have stories at all, and even when they do they’re never the focus of the game, but despite that I’d argue that Smash Bros’s biggest appeal and the main reason the series is so successful is the game’s EXTREMELY powerful Ludonarrative. Like, when Sephiroth was announced people’s excitement didn’t stem from calculating how his giant ass sword was going to affect the metagame, it stemmed from a goddamn gaming legend being added to the game, being able to play as all these different iconic characters and fight each other with them is why the series works so well. Getting back to my main point, Sonic Heroes really doesn’t have a particularly strong story, you said it yourself, this is an arcade style story, cutscenes exist to justify the gameplay and rarely do much beyond that. This game’s strength isn’t in it’s story, it’s in it’s Ludonarrative. The main theme of the game is teamwork, it’s not particularly interesting or groundbreaking theme on it’s own but it does work as a useful framing device for blending the core gameplay mechanics with the game world, which is absolutely required because the core gameplay mechanics are bizarre and unnatural from a narrative standpoint (Knuckles wearing Sonic and Tails as boxing gloves for instance). And on the flip side the core gameplay mechanics force the characters to stay in groups of 3 for the whole game, which means you don’t need cutscenes for fun character moments, they arise naturally from the gameplay. The end result is something I do agree is narratively satisfying, but it’s not really because of anything the story is doing. Sonic Heroes also has some of the most diverse and interesting level environments of any game in the series, but from a story perspective the stage themes have very little to do with each other, and there’s not a strong in universe reason for why the characters are jumping from place to place at the exact same time in the exact same order. It doesn’t really work from a story perspective, but it works really well from a Ludonarrative one. I actually think strong Ludonarratives are one of this franchise’s biggest, most consistent strengths, of all the games in the series Lost World is the only one I don’t like to at least some degree. But at the same time I don’t think having a strong Ludonarrative is the same thing as having a strong story, and I think identifying the difference is important for these types of discussions, because it helps us understand which aspects of the game are working which ones are not. Also totally unrelated to the rest of my comment but I agree with what you said at the end about other characters turning into “Sonic” characters as opposed to characters that live in Sonic’s world. Honestly I feel like they could have pretty easily had their cake and ate it too if they were just willing to further explore the idea of spin offs. Show us what Knuckles is doing while Sonic is on the other side of the planet or how Blaze spends her time when she’s not travelling between dimensions, I think most characters in the series could lead their own franchise if given the chance. If Shadow’s game wasn’t such a critical failure I think that’s probably the direction they would have gone in.
Takashi Yuda once said that Knuckles was supposed to be a side character. Which makes a lot of sense, but after he became super popular he became a main character that has to appear in every game. SA1 decided to build off the Japanese manuals of the classic games of the ancient civilization so Knuckles had good reason to be in that story. However in SA2, this presented a dilemma now that we don’t good reason for Knuckles to be hear what do we do, they broke the Master Emerald again in SA2 and ignored in Heroes. Battle presented a good solution to this, in Battle it’s stated Chaos appears when something really bad happens, so whenever the world is in danger Chaos can guard the Master Emerald. This is idea is supported even further in TailsTube 3 where it’s stated Knuckles only comes down when Sonic can’t save to world on his own. HOWEVER, they completely ignore this and just have Knuckles off Angel Island even when the world isn’t in apparent danger and Chaos very clearly isn’t on Angel Island (Battle (ironic), Rush, ‘06, Colors DS and Forces’ Prologue) and in Heroes it seems like the Master Emerald is unguarded since Rouge stealing it is a threat. It bothers me they have the perfect solution to this problem and they almost NEVER use it.
Your take on the Sonic Team's use of the "cast of characters" is very interesting and I agree. Not every character needs to me in every sonic game. For examples in Super Mario games, Donkey Kong doesn't need to be in every Mario game because he is his own character with his own things going for him. This thought process could open doors for the more popular characters to getting there own games maybe?
In my opinion, DK is a differing example because he branched out into his own series (Or Mario branched our depending on how you look at it) You don't get DK fans asking for more DK in the Mario series because they can just go play Tropical Freeze.
48:03 - "The Chaotix are the Ed, Edd n Eddy of the Sonic Universe" OMG now I cannot stop picturing it in my head since EEnE is one of my favourite cartoons growing up.
Awesome work done! Hope that next story will be Shadow the Hedgehog because it's OST (some really good tracks are there and story progression is partially told through music, like GUN Fortress is considered to be too calm for one of final levels, but it actually shows that Shadow is sure about who he is and no longer changes sides) and story (but Semi-Hero Hero ending really got a tear out of me) are a lot of times overlooked because:"This game is so DaMn EDgy" and "Shadow with guns? Thats sooo stupid" statements from people who didn't even complete or play the game.
GUN Fortress and Final Haunt both are insanely chill for final levels. Personal favorite path option outside Last Story is Hero Space Gadget to beating Doom at Final Haunt
The thing about sonic characters only needing to show up sparsely is a regularly recurring aspect of the series though, even at this point. Not only implicitly by way of their often heard phrase "long time no see" signifying they aren't always glued to each other but there are a good amount of sonic characters who are absent from mainline games. Really tails and eggman are among the most prominent of recurring characters.
Some characters come and go exactly like I describe. But others not so much. Off the top of my head, Knuckles in Lost World. Literally pointless for him to be there. He's just there to be there. The biggest culprit of this is Silver. I'm gonna talk about this in a video when we get to it, but logically after 06 erases Solaris from existence, the future Silver was born into no longer exists. The world events would be so different that Silver would never be born. But not only does he continue to exist in a totally different future, he is constantly coming back to the present again and again because his time is repeatedly put in danger. It is the dumbest possible way to keep having a character that really should have been a 1-timer.
@@Pariah6950 These incidents are so sparse though. Silver has like 2 other appearances in the entire series after 06. Knuckles hadn't shown up in a game for years until lost world, it boils down to a cameo at best. Blaze has 2 canon appearances only. Chaotix show up in Heroes, then Shadow. We never have a canon appearance of Big again. There are just so many outliers to this idea, I think. Character appearances tend to overlap the most when it's a big world trotting adventure where most if not everyone is involved because they inhabit that planet. Shadow the hedgehog for example, despite the games flaws everyone is busy doing they're own thing completely detached from Sonic specifically. This isn't a hard rule though since Unleashed is that but has a pretty small cast. I admit there are cases where it's completely unnecessary like everyone being around in 06, specifically Sonics group and egregiously blaze. Other than that the characters there have pretty plausible reasons for being there. Feels a bit disingenuous to imply that most are there just to be there, the series never had a cast as big as heroes ever again.
It's not just about the main games. It's about the Sonic franchise in general. Like last year they did the monthly short stories on the Sonic Channel. Every single one is Sonic travelling around looking for the Chaos Emeralds, running into "Sonic characters" at every turn. Of all the people on the entire planet, it happens to be that Sonic's friends are always wherever he goes, and conveniently right near where the Chaos Emeralds happen to be. Stupid.
@@Pariah6950 If we count none-canon material anything flies really. Why is Knuckles hanging out go-karting in Sonic Drift or scheming with Fang in Sonic Triple Trouble as opposed to him guarding the Master Emerald? I feel this sentiment could work if it were consistent but it hardly ever is, even in spinoffs with Questionable canonicity. There are simply times where Sonic and his cohorts hang out and some where they don't. Were they always concerned about Sonic and glued to him it would be cause for concern, and so far only Amy and Tails seems to consistently fit that bill.
I see no reason to dismiss everything other than main games as non-canon. Silver is reintroduced in a spinoff, and Battle is relevant to Advance 3. As long as it does not blatantly contradict with other things, I'd call it canon. And the Sonic Channel stories were written by the writer of Forces. Going by the main game only logic, Metal Sonic's last appearance without time travel nonsense is this game. But that doesn't change the fact that Metal has been around and his character has been wasted.
while I agree with your argument on the use of Knuckles, I feel like Amy's entire character is following sonic and ever since Adventure 1 she's proved to able to be more of a hero like Sonic - her leading Big and Cream feels more of a natural progression than what Adventure 2 did with her character
Also I feel like this is something the films have solved straight way, Knuckles is involved in Sonic and Tails' adventures because they're now all protecting the master emerald together - its sad as it removes angel island as a concept but I feel like it works better in the long term when keeping Knuckles around as a member of the cast
I disagree about Amy's story in SA1. I talk about this in my story video for that game. Amy's story there is about her becoming capable enough to defeat a single Eggman robot that Sonic could easily defeat, and saving just one bird and reuniting it with its family. Meanwhile, Sonic takes down armies of robots and saves the world. It's a story about her managing to become a hero in her own small way despite not have the strength and abilities of the other characters. When she suddenly becomes as strong as anyone else, it doesn't work for me. It betrays her entire arc in SA1. Growth is one thing. Ignoring her originally intended purpose as a character is another.
Here's the thing. I don't want a solution to the Knuckles problem. I always see people try to come up with explanations or ways for Knuckles to be able to go on adventures with Sonic. But that comes from a desire to keep Knuckles around as a main character, just because. I don't want a way to justify him to be going on adventures. I want him to do what is right for his character. He doesn't need to be a main Sonic character, and he shouldn't be, imo. I say leave him on Angel Island and let him stay there, where he belongs.
I think a neat explanation for Sonic not using chaos control as much as Shadow is simply because Sonic's chaos control is worse than Shadow's. Not only is Shadow the "ultimate lifeform", but also can use chaos control without an emerald, meanwhile Sonic can only use it with an emerald, and although Sonic X is not canon, in the japanese version of the show in the finale as Sonic is about to use chaos control, Shadow knocks him out, and says that Sonic's chaos control is horrible.
In regards to your thoughts at the end on how the franchise should be treating its characters, I feel like I see your point, And even to a lesser extent agree. I think these things about this franchise is that a lot of Sonic fans really like the lesser used characters, and want to see them return, or at least like their designs enough to want to see them expanded upon. Sonic characters are cast from such a unique, interesting, and flexible mold that each character stands out in their own ways in design, and sometimes personality. With the design so good, it can often feel like a waste not to use them. This is why people don't often ask for more human characters to come back, since in comparison they're just, sort of, dudes. And all of that is not to mention that because of scope and/or under-prevalence, the video games tend to an affect more similar to movies than episodes of a show. A character appearing in a game Feels more like the introduction of King Bumi then of the fortune teller woman, so people will inevitably want to see more of them and feel there's more that can be done with the characters that what has already been done. The the obvious solution would be "spinoffs" (AKA games focused on characters other than Sonic), since then they wouldn't have to justify why they're intersecting paths with Sonic, since Sonic doesn't even _need_ to be there (though of course, there's no reason why he couldn't show up occasionally). I think Blaze is the best example, since she explicitly lives in a whole other dimension, making it hard to justify her inclusion, but adds plenty of space for creativity that doesn't have to interfere with the main Sonic titles, and even allow for her own cast of characters. The problem is that these types of character focused spinoffs have historically not done so well in the Sonic franchise Between Knuckles Chaotix, Shadowed the Hedgehog, and even the 8-bit Tails duology. So I imagine Sega and Sonic Team are very reluctant to make more of those, blaming the concept instead of the execution. It would still be nice though.
Sonic Heroes is one of the best Sonic games ever made and personally it’s my favorite. However I do have to admit I wish the game explained a few scenes here and there why things were happening and such like Knuckles being there when you stated in the video. What they should’ve done was show Tails meeting up with Knuckles on Angel Island and asking him to help against Eggman but Knuckles would refuse since he has to protect the Master Emerald, however Tails says he needs to find Sonic since nobody has seen him in months and Tails thought he would do the next best thing and see Knuckles for help. In this scene Knuckles could say either no and he won’t be apart of the game, or he could help but he brings the Master Emerald with him which subsequently means Angel Island falls again for like the fourth or fifth time but if it’s a world conquering situation then they would maybe need it. Then again they really didn’t need it since Super Sonic rekted Metal Overlord, so I see how frustrating it is to include Knuckles in a game like this but at the same time who can you replace him with since Sonic Heroes is all about teamwork with a group of three, speed, power, and flight. I guess you can say Amy tags along but that would mean Cream and Big would be excluded from the game entirely which at the same time makes sense for their lore since they are simply side characters. One more thing I would like to address is Shadow, his character in this game is done right and as we see in later games *cough cough* 2005 *cough cough* he doesn’t reach this level of excellence till ‘06 out of all games. Shadow as a character for this game being an amnesiac hedgehog is a great idea, however I feel like they should’ve explained it more, like Rouge telling him events that happened before piece by piece, Sonic and the gang meeting up with him and trying to convince him to remember them. Things like that make me want to rewrite the game itself entirely and establish a continuity throughout the adventure era (SA1, SA2, Heroes, and the 2005 game since it’s referencing and going to the places from SA2 and we don’t ever do that again till generations which is just a anniversary game). Regardless though, I still enjoy this games layback story telling and it’s a shame that Neo Metal Sonic or Chocola never get introduced again in a mainstream Sonic game outside of comics and spinoffs. Like you said, so many missed opportunities. Also nice job with these videos, I was hooked when I saw your SA2 story video in my recents, keep up the good work! Looking forward to the 2005 game of the year Sonic title XD
As a kid, I pretty much had always just assumed that the reason why Tails and Knuckles don’t go Super is because the Chaos Emeralds only have the power to transform one person into their Super form. And then for Sonic 06, I had just assumed that Sonic’s power had increased since Heroes and that he was finally able to turn other characters Super as well. All that “male hedgehog” retcon bullshit had completely went over my head, and to be honest, that’s probably the way it should be. As a kid all I played was Sonic 3K and this game and my childhood mind didn’t notice a thing different between the two of them.
I actually agree with your endpoint, that the franchise cast should be a drop in drop out kind of story, where characters of a cast be included based on whether they'd add to this particular story or not and not based around them being popular recurring characters. That said, I don't think most characters should be one and done entirely, and that occasional returns of beloved characters would actually be more fitting than never seeing them again.
People keep asking, why doesn't Rouge just tell Shadow about "his past"? Well the answer is simple: she only knows so much. Mainly the broad strokes. She knows he's the "Ultimate Lifeform", codenamed: Project Shadow, Created on the Space Colony Ark by Professor Gerald Robotnik over 50 years ago, using government funding (possibly from G.U.N.), and he will sometimes stare off and mention the name Maria which also seems to be the password that everything related to Project: Shadow uses for some odd reason. Oh, and his prototype precursor was a GIANT! FUCKING! LIZARD! Besides that, she knows absolutley nothing else. She could have easily told him all of that, in fact I bet she did as these are things he will mention post awakening, and none of his actual memories would come back. Every person who calls this a "plothole" seems to think that someone who only knew Shadow for a month, at best, can somehow give him a lifesworth of memories back with the limited knowledge she has of his previous day to day experiences. While his memories and friendships with Maria, The Professor, the people who lived on the Ark, his favorite foods, his day to day routine, his time spent with friends, his likes, his dislikes, his favorite past times, his adventures, his love of knitting, his lifetime achievements, his graduation, his worst fears, his great times polishing his collection of novelty Elvis collector plates, All Gone. A blank space that not even Rouge could fill in. If there was any written documentation or better witnesses of his time on the Ark to help maybe trigger those memories, the only people who would have access to that are the G.U.N. Commander (who hates Shadow's guts and will shoot him on sight), anyone who was on the Ark (all fucking dead except our dearest Commander), Eggman (who is acting weirder than usual in this game and telling him he has no past because he thinks he's a robot or some shit, also It's Fucking Eggman nothing he says is trustworthy), or Black DOOM (whose comet hadn't flown by yet, also he didn't exist until a couple years later). So he's shit outta luck there. One thing Shadow's game does that is fascinating, story wise, that no one ever talks about is Black DOOM letting him physically relive some of those forgotten moments, however even those are tainted and untrustworthy. Because Black DOOM is cherry picking events that will make the amnesiac hedgehog easier to sway to his side. So showing him one good adventure of helping Maria clear out the ArtificialChaos infestation in The Ark, and then showing his best friend getting mercilessly shot, without also showing him her sacrifice at the escape pods and her final goodbye will change Shadow's perception of those events the same way Gerald's memory tamper did. TLDR: There is more to a creatures memories than just their name, place of birth and cool sounding title. Just because Rouge tells him those things, does not mean that all his memories magically come back.
The issue is that in Shadow the Hedgehog, he very clearly doesn't know anything at the beginning. So it's evident Rouge did not explain a single thing to him. The fact that he doesn't recognize Sonic as "the blue hedgehog he apparently fought with before dying" is evidence enough that he was told nothing.
I love how your channel is busting with subscribers you're getting like 1k a week or something So congrats man And as always. Great video ,keep them coming
I miss Omega's funny chaotic personality. Nowadays his personality just seems to be that he's a robot so he must do robot things. The robot sounds and stiff movement they put in 06 is so bad, it's like they don't want you to forget that the big metallic thing is a fucking robot lol
56:12 while i do agree with parts of what you're saying AT LEAST on baseline Knuckles should be able to have a super transformation seeing as how he is connected to the master emerald and his tribe in sonic adventure 1 used them as well to wage war. so wouldnt it make sense that the guardian of the emeralds would have a way to utilize their power as well?
I have an idea about Amy. What if you made it so that Amyvis more of a support character, collecting and storing powerups to give to Sonic in order to help him get through the levels, and she wouldn't be "playable", per say but would be more of a dynamic NPC, kinda how the party works in Kirby 64.
In response to your last segment, a more episodic approach would make a lot of sense, but the issue is that people grow attached to these characters, so SEGA not making them reoccuring characters would be missing out on catering to that desire the fandom has. I don’t think Shadow would be as beloved if he didn’t get like 3 different games that centered his character growth. You can’t have that if the characters never appear again.
Knuckles needs a sidekick of some kind who watches the master emerald when he is away, and I think that person should be either Mighty and/or Ray, Bark or Fang. Maybe even Tikal or the spirit of Tikal, or the good Chaos. Post Adventure 1 story.
I think a way you could easily explain why Knuckles is away from Angel Island is that Tikal and Chaos could take care of it when he's needed elsewhere. Sure some may question why they are still in the Master Emerald, but I think their "ending" was fairly open-ended enough where it wouldn't be a problem. Sonic Battle showed that he was still around if my memory serves me right. Obviously this shouldn't be overused, but I think it would work as a good enough excuse for Knuckles to go out adventuring.
@@Pariah6950 I understand your reasoning for why Knuckles shouldn't be the adventuring type, and as I said, I wouldn't want this to be overused. He doesn't need to suddenly show up in every game. But for me personally I don't see anything wrong with Knuckles having a bit of freedom instead of being chained down to guard duty all the time, with Chaos no longer a major threat to the world any more.i think there can be some character growth done with a character who had always been so distant from the world now being able to experience it. If done right of course. Now the Master Emerald is still a powerful object that should be protected, so Knuckles should still spend a majority of his time guarding it. This is just my own thoughts and random ideas of course.
Sonic Heroes was my first Sonic game. Anything related to Shadow's story would've gone over my head, so the simplicity of Omega being Doom Guy for robots and Rouge being in the driving seat because treasure was a good way to be eased into the setting. Same with Chocola and Froggy being kidnapped without getting bogged down with explaining SA1 lore. When I played Sonic Frontiers, part of me had to wonder how that game's references would've sounded to someone who didn't know what an "Angel Island" or a "Chaos" was. Probably still more cohesive than... anything related to Blaze the Cat.
I love listening to this dude waffle on about this series, almost always hitting a particular thought that I had about things. Like the characters showing up all the time.
In sonic 3 and knuckles that proficiency on the wall in hidden palace or level 11 supports that it is sonic that can harness the power of the emeralds and the super emeralds and that’s because battling eggman he crash lends eventually a second time and finds out about the master emerald but if that didn’t happen he probably would still find it at some point and unless sonic stopped him in some other scenario knuckles would not be able to use the emeralds to go super and stop him.
I had some time to think, and - ignoring the Shadow game - nothing really suggests that Rouge didn't tell him. She's the one to exposit that Shadow couldn't remember anything, and when confronting Eggman Shadow's only question is what he was doing on that base. Plus, like... Rouge knew, like, the bare minimum details. Created in a space station, deployed to Earth, may have been recovered, may have had a new version created, then designed to cause the apocalypse and changed his at the last second and died in the process. And like, saying "your amnesiac memories might not even be real" is pretty shit information. And Rouge wasn't some random stranger, she and Eggman probably had the most information out of literally anyone at the time and it's still barely scratching the surface. It's only when a 2,000 year old alien warlord arrives where someone with real answers exists.
After the fight with Team Sonic, Shadow wonders to himself who is that hedgehog that looks just like him. So he clearly doesn't remember and Rouge didn't tell him anything.
@@Pariah6950 Oh right lmao. I never claimed that he does remember, but yeah that fighting game level of writing really hurt Team Dark's full story. Maybe Rouge just felt this one blue hedgehog was less important to explain than that big shiny green rock hahah.
What you're asking for at the end is basically a world that feels lived in. Having characters that have their own lives and stories that Sonic gets involved in, but ultimately after it's done they go back to their lives while Sonic goes on more of his adventures. It's the type of stuff that would make Sonic's world not only feel more interesting, but also just much larger given there's no telling what kind of characters or adventures you'd run into. Having much of the cast revolve around Sonic ironically makes the world smaller, since you lose the illusion of them having their own stories. Instead of it feeling like Sonic just got involved in something that was already happening, it feels like he's always the one who starts it. And outside of what he does, there's nothing left to explore concerning other characters. I've definitely played and enjoyed those kind of adventure-type games like Klonoa or the Ys Series. Where the main character goes to different places, has an entire journey with new people they meet and arcs only for said mc to up and leave and probably never see them again. So I say the main issue with the Sonic series doing that is that it's hard to commit to it when you have the same villain each time. Like a lot of the games take place in different areas with different characters, but the fact that it's 95% Eggman being the cause of those adventures already makes the world revolve around Sonic in itself. Because wherever one goes, the other is to follow Because of that, it makes more sense why characters like Knuckles would reappear so often. He's guarding the master emerald, but the one guy who is the BIGGEST threat the master emerald thus far is constantly trying to conquer the world. So of course Knuckles would go out of his way to stop him rather than waiting for Eggman to win then go after the master emerald far stronger and with less advesaries. If anything, this makes later games that don't have the entire cast make less sense. I.e. Unleashed where Eggman summons a god of destruction and splits the world into pieces. You'd be right to think everyone Sonic has met in his past adventures that can do something would want to do something Or Colors where said same villain builds a giant space amusement park chaining together different planets. Or Lost World where said villain's machine is used to suck the literal life out of the planet. And let's not even get into the idea of the chaos emeralds, the biggest power source in the planet. The problem with the "adventure series" concept for Sonic is that in order for it to truly work they'd have to put in a lot more work than characters that don't reappear. New villains, new mcguffens, lore, the whole works. It's why games such as Klonoa or the Ys Series either don't have many games are their are really far apart from each other. It's not an easy thing to do and, for a massively popular series like Sonic, probably not smart either.
48:21 "I don't know what the heck Charmy contributes to the Chaotix". He's literally the only one of them who can FLY! And, he's much smaller than the others, making him better at infiltrating through and/or into smaller spaces. He absolutely adds skills and utility to the team they would otherwise be entirely lacking without him. As for him being annoying, yeah, to most people maybe, but Vector and Espio seem to think of him and treat him like a little brother. Yeah he annoys them sometimes, but they care for him and they want to look after him and keep him around.
Further elaborating on that Sonic and Shadow can only use super forms since only they can control and harness Chaos Energy Point, I wanna bring up the future here as well; specifically Silver The Hedgehog. Sega doesn't want to elaborate on Silver's ancestors, but with Silver being a Hedgehog that can also control and harness Chaos Energy, It's likely then that Silver is a descendant from Sonic, which would make sense as to why he can control and harness Chaos Energy.
26:58 the Manual in English saids the last and most powerful of dr eggman's e-series robots decommissioned and left inprisoned at the base omega was reactivated by mistake as rouge release shadow and its implied that omega's been there for quite a long time meaning omega was build long before the events of this game
I always thought that Sonic Heroes was meant to be a homage/final farewell (As of the game being released) towards the classic game as well as fusing it with the more modern design of the Sonic series at that time. I also do agree that Knuckles being out and about when he should be guarding the emerald is weird as hell. Especially since it could easily be patched up with Knuckles saying something like "Oh, I got a trusted friend to do that for me." Or something like that. Maybe make it another big Sonic Character doing a Favor for Knuckles.
I think we can all agree that the best way to involve knuckles is to have him emerge from the sewers next to amy and tails
finally someone gets it
Absolutely should be a running gag in the series whenever possible.
"Hey guys, long time no see. I just ran into these four turtles that collided with the Master Emerald, and now they're like Ninjas or something..... HEY WHERE YOU GOING!?!?"
Nah Knuckles isn’t a Jew in NYC
My guess for why Metal Sonic is able to transform into a giant dragon like monster is from him copying Chaos' data. Sort of mimicking Perfect Chaos in his own way.
That's what I always thought too
They should put that for the Sonic 3 movie.
Agreed
That plus him copying Shadow's data.
Not only that but metal sonic copied the data of team sonic shadow and chaos data which gave metal sonic his power to become metal madness and overlord when metal sonic copies data from a character he’s capable of using the very same power and or skill of said data example shadow’s chaos control
Rouge and Shadow in short: "I could fix him, but whatever's wrong with him is way funnier"
This is my favorite comment about this game
I feel like I know exactly what Charmy contributes to the Chaotix: he can fly.
Really think about it. Vector is the muscle, and Espio is the ninja. But neither of them can get an eye in the sky. Charmy is small, and can fly. It's that simple.
Christmas with eggman rip charmy for being small and able to fly
Charmy: "Can I join you guys?"
Vector: "You're a lousy detective, a lousy fighter, a lousy drummer, and we don't like you. Why would we let you join?"
Charmy: "I can fly."
Espio: "Welcome to the team."
That is true
I like to think the reason we never saw Metal Sonic speak again is because Eggman, while imprisoned, realized he couldn't give too much autonomy and self-awareness to his machines at the risk of them betraying him again while keeping them smart enough to solve complex problems, like the AI misalignment issue in our own world. In Sonic Adventure, Gamma developed his own mind and began destroying his robots without his knowledge. If all E-series robots are based on the same code, maybe Omega's hatred and resentment towards Eggman isn't really his own but was transferred from Gamma. Perhaps the reason Omega is imprisoned at the start of Heroes is because Omega tried to kill Eggman and destroy his robots the second he was activated. In a way, Gamma, Omega and Metal Sonic could represent the same concept, the blindness/naivety/ego of Eggman trusting his own machines and therefore his intellect. It backfires and he never built anything similar to Omega or this Metal Sonic that could directly harm him until he repeats the experiment in Sonic Colors with Orbot/Cubot who are idiots by design.
That would actually be really cool. Have Eggman chain down Metal's AI to prevent such a thing again. Lots of potential for Metal's AI to try to break free of this control. Kinda like my story rewrite, where he can sometimes override programming. That could lead to Metal forming a resentment toward Eggman and potentially breaking free one day to become independent? Such possibilities that they will never capitalize on.
@@Pariah6950 Oh yeah, it sure is amazing how many stories you can write with such simple premises.
For example, why did his robots betray him? Because over time, Eggman got careless and didn't give himself enough time to properly program his robots and also didn't realize or refuse to believe that something was wrong behind his back since he lost control of Gamma.
Why did he become careless? I think it's well established that Eggman, despite his intelligence, isn't the most mature person on the planet (cute badniks, multiple theme parks even in his own Egg Carrier, wanting to take over the whole world for some reasons), and when something doesn't go his way, he begins to lose his marbles. I think when he started dreaming of taking over the world, he didn't expect, with all his resources and intelligence, to be stopped over and over again by a single guy he can't even catch. And so it became an obsession and he started making mistakes/being impatient and getting crazier and crazier with each added defeat, like threatening Sonic's friends at gunpoint or blowing up the fucking the world in SA2, smashing it to pieces in Unleashed or enslaving everyone with a hypnotic ray in Colors.
You can argue that Sonic's "vigilant" actions are morally gray because they drive Eggman to an escalation of violence that drives him to build more complex/huge machines (the cute robots from Sonic 1 are long gone) and making desperate and reckless attempts like the several gods he tried to awaken and control, as all that matters to him at this point is killing Sonic. Maybe around Adventure/Heroes Eggman begins to doubt his own genius for building machines capable of defeating Sonic on their own and begins to think that only the help of a deity can stop him (Chaos, Solaris, Gaia, Time Eater. I find it rather interesting that the first thing Eggman wants to do with the Time Eater is to "erase his previous defeats with Sonic"). You can even justify why Eggman uses the same machines in many games multiple times with this quote from Einstein: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
As for Cubot and Orbot, Eggman is said to have no common sense despite his 300iq, maybe he built those idiots deliberately so they could constantly challenge his design choices with stupid questions so he can make fewer mistakes but also have someone to talk to so they can monitor his sanity?
Sonic on the other hand is the other side of the same coin, with every win he becomes careless and stops taking Eggman's threats or any danger seriously and his ego is boosted (lol). Wasting precious seconds instead of running from a black hole in Colors, doing everything himself. The attitude comparison with him and Classic in Generations is really telling I think (take Planet Wisp's music for example, from Classic's perspective is like a Bad Future but for Modern's it's calm and non-threatening) but I think the highlight has to be in Lost World where Sonic is so out of touch that he almost lost his friends to the villains.
I wonder if the reason he's so obsessed with friendship in Forces is because of the events of Lost World and Tails, making him realize he has capable friends and doesn't have to do everything only . Regardless of what people think of Pontac & Graff's writing, I think it makes sense in terms of character development. Looks like Sonic learned his lesson after Lost World/Forces.
Finally about Metal, I like your idea of him trying to free himself. Maybe there really is a Sonic in Metal Sonic. The games don't touch much on the amount of Sonic's datas in Metal like the OVA does. Maybe he is a perfect replica and for him (Sonic) to be enslaved and constrained by Eggman is unacceptable? With Ian in charge, maybe Sega will capitalize on these ideas, who knows.
Sorry for that block of text, I needed to get that out of my system. I hope that was interesting.😅
@@roxanneceli8235 That was an interesting read.
@@robertlupa8273 Thank you sir.
@@roxanneceli8235 If Eggman HAS tried restraining Metal Sonic's AI (which he probably has, given it can't talk anymore), it doesn't quite seem to be doing much; Metal Sonic's STILL had instances where he's broken off from Eggman to do his own thing, like in Free Riders. :0
Your thoughts on Metal Sonic I totally agree with, they kinda never really touch on that stuff again. It actually reminds me of a scene from the IDW comics thats one of the few times they do touch upon Metal and his whole “copy of sonic” thing. In one arc Sonic gets infected with the metal virus, which turns all organic matter into basically robot zombies. At one point Metal sees this and actually dips a finger into a jar of the virus. Like the games he has no dialogue but the scene showing him hesitating before dipping in, and just staring at how the virus just slides right off confirming again he can never really be the real Sonic is really interesting.
Robo depression
*sad metalic sounds*
i also love how it ties in with metals role at the end of the zombot arc to
Atleast he's invincible to Rule34
@@NiCoNiCoNiCola Are you sure about that?
The thing about Amy Rose is that she is Sonic's self-proclaimed girlfriend. At the end of the day, she's like Tails: She follows Sonic. She chases after Sonic. She wants to be with Sonic. Her entire life revolves around Sonic. She can not and will not live her life alone in her own little world and move on after meeting Sonic, because her entire life purpose and dream and motivation and goal is to be Sonic's girlfriend and marry him some day. This means that Amy must follow the same logic that Tails does as a character: Wherever Sonic goes, SHE goes. Amy's story in Sonic Adventure 1 began with establishing the fact that Amy is bored with normal, mundane life. Ever since the classic games, she's just been living a normal civilian life in Station Square and she absolutely hated it. Because, Amy is basically Sonic as a girl. She is a female version of Sonic, and what she wants in life is the exact same as him: to have fun exciting adventures and thrills. The only difference is that she loves Sonic and wants romance, where Sonic has no interest in that at all. Hence, she chases after him. She chases Sonic because she is in love with him, and also because Sonic makes life exciting, and she wants to share in that excitement.
In fact, this very game, Sonic Heroes, emphasizes that strongly. Amy being a Speed-type and leading her own team on an adventure IS *PERFECT* for her character precisely because of that, and the foundation for it has already been laid by Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Advance and Sonic Advance 2. In Sonic Adventure 2, Amy is a playable character in the two player mode's Action Races as a racer against Sonic, Shadow and Metal Sonic. She is a bit slower, yes, but she's still there with the Homing Attack and stuff, and her own unique spin on things. Sonic Advance 1 has her play like she did in SA1 but Advance 2 builds on the new development in SA2 by having her play like the other characters with her own version of the Spin Dash and everything. Sonic Heroes is simply a progression of that even further. It is almost as if from Sonic Adventure 1 through the Advance games, SA2 to Heroes, she progresses from a "normal girl" to a "Sonic Hero".
And on that note, Amy was never normal to begin with. In Sonic CD, the Japanese manual states that Amy's specialty is Tarot card reading and dowsing, that she likes mysticism and fortune telling. And this continues to be reaffirmed over the course of the franchise, even though it's never directly blatantly emphasized in a loud, bold way. It is frequently stated and shown that she has mystical abilities of some kind, to the point of having a "Sonic Radar" in her head that allows her to sense his location no matter where he is, among other things. Amy has always been a magical character. The thing was that she was a "Love Interest" while Tails is the "Sidekick", so she was introduced as an analogue to Princess Peach while Tails was Luigi. A damsel in distress vs an actual playable character. It wasn't that Amy was a "normal girl", it was that Amy was female AT ALL that separated her from Sonic, Tails and Knuckles power level-wise. And THAT was her struggle in SA1.
It wasn't that she was a normal girl compared to them, the whole point is that she was the Damsel in Distress that needed to be rescued by Sonic, and she wanted to be more than that. It is like Tails' struggle of simply being the Sidekick who follows behind Sonic. Tails and Amy both had to overcome their initial role and become more than that, to become someone who can stand on equal grounds to Sonic, as you yourself have stated in this video in regards to Tails. Why shouldn't Amy be shown the same respect? This is one great thing about Amy that can't be said for a lot of characters of her archetype across media. Many love interests for superpowered characters are relegated to the sidelines and not allowed to be cool and powerful like the hero, when the sidekicks and so many others ARE. Amy disrupts that status quo by actively chasing after Sonic and making herself be part of his life and proving that she can take care of herself and doesn't need Sonic to rescue her all the time.
So Sonic Heroes establishing Amy as the leader of Team Rose and the Speed-type who has the Sonic-like speed and spin attacks and homing attacks and tornado attacks is the perfect development of her character that she has always deserved to recieve. Amy Rose deserves better and this game did a good job of giving that to her. Unfortunately, it had the side effect of setting the groundwork for future games to outright ruin her character in an entirely different way, using her more aggressive behavior and the existence of the more demure and polite Cream for flanderization.
Dude..... You dug Amy's personality perfectly! 😌
Also she matured in the Meta era
@@playerback7722 not really... they just downplayed her character and didnt use her.
Very well said overall
Wow someone that actually understand's Amy's Character its amazing to see it still happening.
That being said a few additions.
In SA1 did Amy originally not want to out grow her state as a damsel it was happen stance and her kindhearted nature that lead to her getting into the situation to make her grow until finally her righteous anger at Zero for badly hurting Amy made her fight and win over a foe she before through impossibel for someone like her to defeat which ultimately gave her the realization that she doesn't have to be a damsel that if she wants action she can become a Hero just like Sonic.
I do like how in 06 Amy growth actually is even recognized by Sonic letting her deal with Silver which is something I couldn't see SA 1 or 2 Sonic do.
While I love that Amy was given the change to grow in Heroes do I have to say that her pre-Team fight dialogue is pretty bad (to be fair the same is true for almost all Team fights) especially the really badly executed SA2 call back with the "marry me" point which made the cute Joke in SA2 seem far less cute all of a sudden.
While you are right that Amy's love defines her character just as much as it does Tails (with the difference being that with Tails is platonic rather than romantic love) so do I also like it when she just like Tails actually has a life outside of just Sonic. Which is why I like that she has her own relationships with Characters like Cream and does things without having Sonic to necessarily be involved like wanting to participate in the World Grandprix in Sonic Rider just for the thrills.
Honestly, to me the fact Eggman wants to dominate the WHOLE world makes enough sense for Knuckles to join, after all, Angel Island is a part of the world, if Eggman wants to take it all of it, it puts the Master Emerald in danger, because you can't wait until the deed is done to protect it from the Eggman army, it's better to stop him while he is trying than after he succeeds
if knuckles had given sonic and tails that note at the beginning that would make knuckles being there makes more sense
@@lauraikokoI like to believe that, but I also find it fun to imagine that Tails went to Knuckles first so they could both find Sonic
I wear a gold necklace that was a hand me down from my father. My parents got mathing, unisex necklaces when they were younger. They stopped wearing them after awhile, so his was basically nit being used. I just tried it on, amd he let me keep it. I always wear it as a reminder that they've always been there for me. I know Vector's bling was probably never meant to have a deeper meaning, but I like to imagine it was also a gift from somebody.
I'ma snatch yo shit ✋👊🏃🏃🏃
@@SweaterSwagg Jokes on you. The sentimental value aside, this necklace is worth less than 2 tanks of gas. Haha
@@joshhacker8503 💀😭
30:35 here is my explanation for rouge not actually telling shadow:
First: rouge wasn't manipulating shadow here as we saw in sa2 she grew a bond him(kinda) also she is ginuenly concerned about him as appears in many instances
Scondly: do you remember the cut dialog in sa2 where rouge tells shadow that he might not be the real one and that the pod was never found?
I think she probably didnt tell him because she wasn't sure if he was the same shadow wich also explains how surprised and broken she was when she thoght he was a copy at the end AND also when eggman tells shadow he has no past(i know that was metal sonic but he copied eggman so yeah) he might be referring to that eggman found the actual pod that the original shadow fell from and rouge just doesn't want to shove fake memories into someone that they dont belong into
That is definitely a possibility. Good point. Again, it would be nice if there was anything in the game to tell us the reason, one way or another.
@@Pariah6950 that's a very reoccurring problem in sonic games because for some reason, there is always moments where you feel like there must something here we haven't seen or heard about like the knuckles thing because he came to sonic with tails on the tornado so it might be possible that there was something between tails and knuckles here we haven't seen or like sa2 where rouge doesn't take the emeralds or never explaining why eggman wanted to destroy earth
So i dont know why these things keep getting missed like do sonic team have a problem creating cutscenes or they couldn't connect it with gameplay?
Besides, she wouldn't know EVERYTHING about him.
1:05:54 It was established in the Sonic Forces comic 'Stress Test' that Chaos returned some time after SA2 and is now guarding the Master Emerald every now and then so Knuckles can do other things.
Oo I really like that explanation actually, takes the honestly pretty weird reason for him being back in battle and recontextualizes it into fixing a long-standing series issue
THATS AWESOME! I TOLD PEOPLE FORCES WASNT ALL BAD
I recall the Archie comics doing something similar with him to explain why the oceans weren't destroyed from the world splitting during the events of Unleashed.
My guess for the "copying data" thing, is that it had nothing to do with the giant dragon form, aside from the data gathered from that Chao and the frog on Chaos.
Instead, I think it's basically so he can get a better understanding of how all the different teams fight, to predict their movements and what they might do next. It's a very mechanical, methodical approach to it.
Perhaps it's more accurate to translate "copying data" to "collecting data" in this case
In other words… he may know everything the heroes are going to do, but it doesn’t matter because they know everything he’s going to do… strange… isn’t it?
As a huge Gamma fan and huge Omega fan, I'm glad they didn't bring Gamma back. Gamma's story was over and Omega is such an amazing one-note character that works better as a mainstay.
Shadow's return I think works in this game and only this game, I hate how it led to his flanderization and they never even tried to write him off again
I’m quite a fan of how the Sonic Universe comics handled the dynamic personally, with Omega initially being loyal to Eggman and sent on a search and destroy mission to end Gamme, which turns into and amazing fight between essentially a berserker and an assassin.
Ending with as Gamma is fading, transferring all of his data and memories into Omega, lighting the fire of rebellion in him and allowing Omega to break from Eggmans control
@@tornic531 That actually sounds awful, sorry lmao
@@Laekith the more accurate information is that gamma gave omega a soul not his memories or anything though the exchange gamma gave to omega being a walking arsenal while he’s an assassin was epic
@@mcpics4448 I don't know, I kinda just prefer Omega hating Eggman from the get go. Also there's no reason why the two of them should meet
@@Laekith the comic does have him be extremely angry at eggman beforehand but went to do because eggman threatened to have send in a vault for another decade
One thing that disappoints me about team sonic( and the series as a whole really,)is that we don't get much chemistry between knuckles and tails, they're only ever talk to eachother through sonic or when sonic is around.
They kinda started off on the right foot though with tails and knuckles hanging out on the plane at the start though.
This is something that the 2nd sonic movie does well, and really wish we get to see the 2 be a duo sometime
Yeah I wish we got more, I really like when Knuckles teases Tails about Shadow being a ghost.
one thing i feel should had a brief mention is how team rose has the same general plot that amy story had in sa1 . amy protects a bird , cream and big want to rescue their frog and chao friend . at the start they don't have the confidence and as stated in the video they are way over their head. a nobody fisherman and a little girl , and by the end they not only they acomplish their goal they grow in confidence . the difference is that amy had her character arc alone . but that in turn helps her be the catalist for big's and cream development , not unlike sonic who also helps those around him grow like tails in sa1 or shadow in sa2.
It's weird to say big doesn't have confidence here considering he went through similar experience in SA1.
I love how the story wraps up for this game. Sonic casually offers Metal the chance at a rematch-not as enemies-but as rivals. After everything he (and his friends) went through, it is SONIC himself, the person Metal persecuted most, who offers his hand in potential friendship. This speaks volumes about Sonic's "just keep going" attitude, and the positivity that allows him to not only bring people together, but also bring out the best in everyone. Metal's schemes were ultimately some kind of breakdown, so he doesn't take it personally.
In the end, Sonic is chased by the people that love him, which Metal should be keen in seeing he just doesn't have. But he's then given a chance when the characters most notable for having once been abandoned stay by him. It's just so damn great, but a shame that nothing actually came from this legit tease.
Sonic just digs fighting Metal Sonic. He's not Steven Universe or a messiah.
I wouldn't say nothing came from this tease. Whatever you think of Sonic Rivals, I did like that it's Shadow who partners up with and works with Metal in Rivals 2.
Metal Sonic turned into a dragon monster because of the Chaos data he copied from Chocola and Froggy. It’s supposed to be his attempt at becoming a Perfect Chaos-like god of destruction.
i think another issue with constantly using the same characters over and over is that it shrinks the world down. it doesnt feel like theres really anything to see, because we just keep seeing the same people over and over. theres not that many people, or theres just not many places to go, or both. the real world we were saving was 20 people split between three small islands.
and its no wonder the chaotix cant get work, everyone can just do their own detective work! theres only 2 suspects anyways and one of them is literally everyones best friend.
49:35
Pariah pointing at shadow: this is brilliant
*turns to espio* : but I like this
To me, Charmy is supposed to be the hype man of the Chaotix. He's the heart of the group that keeps everyone pumped up and optimistic going on their missions (and also there to handle more inconsequential chores).
Dumb fun fact: While you may already know this, Espio's name comes from the word 'Espionage' (which is the role he fills).
The issue with the characters has indeed become a huge double edged sword, and the series has definitely been paying for it.
Because now the series to either stuff these characters into one game and devaluing them, or just ignore them entirely. But because Sonic Heroes established all of these fan favorite characters, people will naturally want to see more of them and get upset when they don't appear.
You see that right now where one of the most vocal complaints about the recent games is how nobody but Sonic & Tails are important anymore. So the series is kind on in a rock and a hard place. The genie has been let out of the bottle you can say.
26:58 - In SA1, Beta was rebuilt after his destruction. The new Beta shared the same color scheme, but looked different and was more powered up. I always assumed Omega was built with some of Gamma's parts because of the color scheme match up, and that he inherited Gamma's desire to destroy his brethren to save them, but that it got twisted some in transition.
Rouge is not trying to take advantage of Shadow to help her with her goal. She does not know if Shadow is the real Shadow or just an android. She actually isn't selfish at all and is being cautious for the sake of her friend. That's why she asks Omega if he thinks that Shadow is a robot.
Possible. But not at first. She didn't even know Shadow androids existed until halfway into the story. I guess she could maybe guess that the one she finds in Eggman's base is a robot copy. But the real issue is that there's nothing hinting toward her reason for not telling him at all.
The thing with knuckles not guarding the master emerald, is that most games tend to be world conquering scenarios and if the world gets taken over then it would only be a matter of time before angel island get taken over as well.
I'd just have Knuckles find someone to help him guard it. Maybe also have him get a security system. That way he can leave the island, yet get called back if the threat is too big for his subordinates.
I’ve had a theory as to why Knuckles is no longer hanging out on Angel island. I think after the events of adventure 1 one of two things happened, either Angel island can no longer fly having fallen one too many times or as long as the master emerald is together the island will float regardless. It was made clear in adventure 2 that the master emerald can shrink down when needed, since knuckles was able to carry the thing around easily after he put it back together. I think that’s just what he does now, he keeps the emerald pocket sized so he can leave the shrine and live a more carefree life with his friends. I could be wrong since it’s been a while since I’ve played through adventure but it’s the best reason I can think of that can fill that particular plot hole
Knuckles is suppose to be guarding it but considering that they are facing a world crisis he needs to be there bisides its a lot easier than dragging the master emerald into every single polt they make especially since hes one of the main trio
I always figured the Master Emerald had to literally be on the island in order to make it float, what's more believable to me is either Knuckles decided to have the island go back into the Ocean so it isn't isolated from the rest of the world (showing his growth from the lonely dude he used to be) or that Tails like built him a giant ultra-secure safe to keep the Master Emerald...safe...while Knuckles is out helping Sonic or whatever, or hell maybe Cream loans Gemerald to Knuckles any time the world needs saving so the Master Emerald has a bodyguard at all times, actually now that i think about it, it would be a really cute expanation if the reason why Cream and her Mom weren't in Sonic Forces was because Knuckles set them up a home on Angel Island, so they could just hide out there away from all the crazy shit happening during the story, and since Gemerald is with them Eggman just didnt bother trying to take over Angel Island (not to mention Cream could probably do some major damage to any mech Eggman sends, especially with Cheese by her side AND Gemerald 🤣🤣🤣
Three reasons why Knuckles leaves Angel Island.
1: Tikal and Chaos are active now. They can guard it while he's gone.
2: Sonic and Tails have helped him so much in the past, it's only fair he help them back.
3: Eggman wants to take over the world. Angel Island is a part of the world.
I hate how what happens to tikal and chaos at the end of adventure is so confusing, I though that they were treated like western representations of ghosts in medias where they just die for real after they complete their goals(chaos stopped wanting to destroy everything to avenge the chaoes and tikal didn't need to protect the world from chaos anymore)
but turns out that's not the case a'd they just randomly show up in spin offs like sonic battle or the sonic forces comics
So much you have brought up echoes my sentiment so much! Especially the bit about the game mimicking Sonic 3&K in structure! Bullet Station is so much like Launch Base!
Another detail I like is how Knuckles in idle dialogue expresses frustration at Eggman deceiving them again. Shadow makes a comment about Grand Metropolis being artificial and him feeling at home in it.
Sonic makes a reference to "escape from the city" in his idle chatter in Grand metropolis too.
The game's writing is underrated imo.
I also like how Team Rose just sneaks onto and commandeers a ship to get to Final Fortress.
The Transport tunnels from Hot Shelter in Rail Canyon moving the Shadow android capsules to Final Fortress, Eggman making the Chaotix!
On the point about Sonic and Knuckles dynamic, and I know this is gonna sound weird, but they had that arc in SA2 via Knuckles' rap songs.
The Lyrics depict Knuckles arc in the game and the last few songs go over Sonic and Knuckles mending their animosity more. They REALLY crammed as much stuff in every cranny of that game lol.
I would have liked your idea though nonetheless.
I actually disagree that Shadow's return undermines his death. He loses all his memories and that's still a very real consequence. Remember in SA2 Shadow says independent of his memories his still true to his goal and this is a true test of that claim and plays into his arc in his own game heavily.
Omega was actually put in the room to be recon for Shadow if he got out of his capsule according to Sonic Channel bio. It also says he was also made to support Shadow, so that suggests Eggman had plans to convert Shadow to his allegiance.
I am SO Glad you brought up the thing with Rouge. I get told that makes no sense even though its very much in her character.
The Shadow Android Team Dark finds came out of the Egg Albatross. it was stated its transporting Eggman's weapons. Bullet Station was a weapons transportation center. In the level you see all the capsules the same kind Shadow was in and the Androids at the end of the game.
Also I 100000% Agree about Amy in Heroes! This was her PEAK in this game imo! I am SO thankful someone else mentions this! Heroes was the perfect escalation of her ARK in SA1!
Your assessment of Heroes story at the end is one I very much also echo. Heroes is in many ways the most quintessential Sonic game story and structure imo.
I also 100% agree with the point about Knuckles. Been saying this for a while as well. If anything, give him his own spinoff. I disagree with the point about Amy though but I can see where you are coming from and I don't completely disagree.
I love how many details this game has. Some you mention I cut for time, others I didn't know. But I totally forgot to mention the Shadow capsules in Bullet Station.
I think bringing Shadow back in general undermines the concept of the character. However the amnesia was a really good way to do it that still does sort of respect the original intention of the character. I'll talk about that in the Shadow story video.
I've never heard that detail about Omega. Cool idea. Now if only it was in the game.
Tails being afraid of lightning is a reference to the old 90s Sonic movie where he was deathly afraid of lightning.
Actually it's been a thing since his bios in the classic era.
glad to see I'm not the only one who sometimes prefer a very simple but fun story over something big, deep and serious.
Also in Knuckles case I would argue that his problem is the same as with Shadow, that he was supposed to be a one time character but was such a fan favourite that they decided to keep him around. Seriously, if you think about it, Knuckles was pretty much Shadow before Shadow was a thing.
if you want more about Metal's identity crisis then look to the IDW Comic as the first two story arcs expand on this the first arc however leans far more into it than the 2nd but both arcs explore this amazingly. id specifically recommend the mini story "Reflection" it's solely dedicated to Metal and his thoughts on the subject but since the IDW Comic establishes that metal can only talk in his Neo and Overlord forms and he's in his base form it's made even more beautiful, tragic, and for Metal himself rage inducing. to put it in the game apologists words. "He literally has no mouth but must scream".
After watching the new sonic movies I wanted to remind myself of my childhood and searched videos about the games. I ABSOLUTELY love how you build these videos. Not only you bring up what the story is truly about but you also explain all the little details. It has been a blast to watch your videos. Thank you for that!
There's so much to dig into with this game, having 4 campaigns, Sonic's highspeed chase and encounter with Shadow later, Team Dark's suggestion as to whether he's a robot or not, the Froggy and Chocola Chaos data Metal Sonic was after, the fake Eggmans he'd made, the real Eggman calling to Team Chaotix for help, and strange requests, why they wanted Cheese in their Team Rose scene, and potential theme song lyric or stage motif connections!
Plot twist: knuckles learned in SA2 that he can shrink the Master Emerald and stick it in his pocket. That's why he's away from Angel Island!
Yeah, that's always been weird. I like how Ian Flynn dealt with that in the IDW comics where that does cause a problem and then he sticks around on the Island and only really gets involved when stuff comes to him.
Great video! In regards to Knuckles' dialogue and characterization, I do believe I read that his original personality is one that is somewhat tough and serious yet always honorable (though gullible sometimes).
This series has so much potential. And it's just handled so wrong so often. :(
The thing I like most about Espio (mostly in Heroes, this kind of disappears in later appearances) is that, with the way he carries himself, he comes off like some tryhard roleplayer, as if he's some kind of chunibyou so obsessed with the idea of being a ninja that he actually went and did it. Most of that just comes from how needlessly exaggerated his mannerisms are to a goofy extent that gives off chuni vibes, but I think there's something there.
The more understated version of Espio we get in things like Generations doesn't give off that same vibe at all, and I find Espio a lot less cool because of it.
I like that they sort of brought this kind of concept back in The Murder Of Sonic The Hedgehog, where they had Espio being this eloquent, calm, and intelligent poet, then the reveal happens and he's sought out as being a gullible dipshit who really ain't all that he seems
I disagree with the idea that Super Knuckles and Super Tails being a problem.
The Super Saiyen problem was one because the concept was presented as a chosen one story first. That one saiyen, the Super Saiyen, would rise up and defeat Frieza to free their face from his torment. Vegeta believed he was “the” Super Saiyen, not wishing to achieve a form any Saiyen can do. The story didn’t present it as a simple transformation AT FIRST, but a unique one tied to a specific role. It became a problem after turns out any saiyen can do it if they’re strong enough, taking away what made it special during the Frieza saga.
Super Sonic is completely different. I think the idea of anybody capable of having a super like form make it far more interesting than just a transformation exclusive to Sonic. It’s a good to separate it from Dragon Ball’s version.
The idea of the Chaos Emeralds or simply Chaos Energy granting the users ultimate power and have them transform in any shape or form makes more sense to me than only someone like Sonic can use them. In fact in makes Sonic seem a bit Marty sue-ish that only character like him can transform into a super from. It doesn’t even have to be a Super form.
The idea has been explored before, like in Sonic Movie 2 or the Fleetway comics where Eggman gained a transformation because of Chaos Energy. It doesn’t make the Super form less impactful, but it rises the stakes even higher in that anybody could became powerful thanks to the emeralds.
Beside, the transformation ain’t something Sonic can do on his own. He needs the power of the emeralds with him, or some power equivalent to it (The Master Emerald) to achieve it. So when the table is set, that makes the transformation all the more exciting, despite a power almost anyone is capable of wielding, you’re excited because it’s Sonic. And who says the same can’t be said about Tails and Knuckles.
Heck, you can create unique powers for Tails and Knuckles, not just giving them the same set of power of Super Sonic. So let’s say someone like Cream gain control over the chaos emeralds, you could call her transformation “Super Cream” but it doesn’t that’s to follow the same rules as Super Sonic. Maybe she gains the powers to control the wild life of the entire world, or since with her connection with Cheese, a being related to chaos, control the ocean. Just a silly example, but you get what I mean?
There are factors you could contribute to the idea, such as mental capacity and willpower, but that would be going into headcanon territory.
Overall, it makes no sense why Tails and Knuckles didn’t transform into their super forms and were given these weird bubbles. It was a huge waste of potential and would she brought back transformations that are still believe by fans today. It personally rubbed me the wrong way, and to this day, I think that’s one of the many aspects of the game they would have done better. But that’s just me
I understand. And I think it would be fine for a few other characters to go super, if it is properly earned narratively. Sonic and Tails R is a good example of that.
But there's no getting around the fact that Shadow was explicitly created to be a creature that could control Chaos Energy. Why go to such trouble trying to create such a being if any rando anthro could do it?
Also, Sonic kinda is a Mary Sue. Part of his deal is that he can do anything, there's a whole song about it lol. He always knows the right thing to say and do. Whenever another character is struggling, Sonic always knows the way to bring them back up. That's just how he is. Sonic is intentionally without fault as a character. It's not just about him as a literal character, but what he represents. Sonic is the good that exists in everyone. The Emeralds are fueled by the thoughts and feelings of people. Sonic is the avatar of everyone's happiness, love, bravery, kindness and hope. When he fights evil, it is the good of everyone coming together that is really what's fighting. It's not just some character powering up. But if anyone could do it, it would lose this meaning and become just that.
The question to be asked is why should Tails and Knuckles be able to go super? Is it because it is right for the Sonic series and them as characters? Or because you like them being able to? The same applies to my thoughts about how frequently characters show up. People just like the characters and want them around, even it's not really the right thing for the series.
@@Pariah6950
I think the idea of Shadow being created harness that much power might be given to the idea that was built to be even more power than other people who are just as capable. Sure, Tails can go super, but Shadow was built to wield and handle such power at a much greater scale. That’s my headcanon at least. We’ll probably never have a proper explanation to this in the game lore, but I like to believe anybody can wield such a power but it takes strong will and mental capacity to wield it.
Again, that’s my interpretation of things.
Also I can see where you’re coming from with Sonic being a bit of a Mary Sue. Most Game protagonists are kind of like that, since they were made with the player controlling them in mind, they’re the main hero after all. I think it’s outside media, like the cartoons and comics, where they try and make him a more believable character.
I think Tails and Knuckles should go Super because in the context of the game they went through all this trouble together, the three of them. It’s only natural for the three to defeat this ultimate evil of Metal Sonic once and for all. Not to mention, it would just look cooler.
I don’t think there’s an objective way of looking at what’s “right” for the Sonic series since the franchise has plenty of iterations and identities that it just boils down to if it would be fine for what the current game is telling. And I think adding Super Tails and Hyper Knuckles fits in with the fun narrative of Sonic Heroes. That’s my Take.
@@Pariah6950 Umm no Sonic isn't a Mary Sue at all wtf are you actually talking about? There's a huge difference between a central morally paragon character (I don't think he's exactly morally paragon), and a character who's story, universe, quantum rules and the people bends, molds, breaks and sacrificed just to wank this particular character off. If Sonic was an actual Mary Sue, the cast would nowhere near be as interesting and endearing as it is because they would be only used to suck Sonic off and nothing more.
"Sonic is intentionally without fault as a character"
Umm what about his cockiness? Impatience? Recklessness? Overconfidence? Stubbornness? Short-tempered? And oh yeah the famous Hydrophobia? (He can't swim)
Did you know that in the Adventure games, Sonic gets Arrested? Gets finessed by other characters (Eggman, Shadow, even Knuckles in S3&K)? Has moments of frustration and sadness? Showing concerns like for his friends? Has moments of surprise and confusion? Talks about feelings and worries? Even asked for help since he can't do everything by himself?
So yeah Sonic really isn't a mary sue, nor should it excuse super forms being exclusive whatsoever. That really adds nothing to the franchise at all and instead regresses it. It doesn't even make any sense either internally and externally but that's a debate for another day.
"Sonic is the avatar of everyone's happiness, love, bravery, kindness and hope. When he fights evil, it is the good of everyone coming together that is what's really fighting. It's not just some character powering up. But if anyone could do it, it would lose its meaning and become just that."
I do not like the implications of this at all, because it sounds like Sonic is the only person who is that and no other person could ever hope to be that. Like e.g. Cream; a character who's established to have nothing really anything evil about her, is just out of luck to go Super? Is it because she is secretly never as good of a person as JesusChuckNorris Sonic is? What good does the 'good of everyone' do if it's still entirely dependent on one specific person and no one else? I'm not trying to be a dick here but this sounds toxic asf ngl. And I hope you start to understand why people are rightfully pissed the hell off with the whole "only male hedgehogs can go super" bs.
Here's my team dark pitch rouge makes a deal with shadow that if they find Eggman's treasure then rouge would tell shadow about his past. Then at the end, Shadow asks rouge about his past. She says that they never found Eggman's treasure so she's not going to tell him and go steal the master emerald
I like it. Simple and effective.
I agree with the last part of "every character must appear in every Sonic game from now on." I call it "Sonic and Friends," where the other characters are just there to cheer up Sonic at the final fight and then congratulate him when he wins. Their personalities turned into that pretty much.
Pariah would've preferred if the series had more episodic stories with one off Sonic characters? I have a feeling he's gonna enjoy the storybook series lol
Sonic: the leading franchise in missed opportunities.
they needed knuckles because hes tougher than the rest of them, tougher than leather
That's exactly why you can call him Knuckles, and unlike Sonic he doesn't chuckle.
I love the video! Your Sonic story videos are very well written and have many good points. I may not fully agree with all of them, but to me that doesn't take away from the major points you make. Also, it's refreshing to see a middle ground for once for a long form Sonic video! You don't hate on it the whole time, but you don't overpraise it for no reason. It nice to see and I look forward to watching all the rest of the videos! Also I think you forgot an important reason why all the other character's lives revolve around Sonic after they meet him.........merchandise!
1:12:15 - I think they should've made Team Rose be the game's Hard Mode, because they're more normal people, so it should be harder for them to get through the same forces. Set the levels up to be more challenging for them.
yeah that's always been weird to me How gamed have the less experienced characters be easy mode and the more experienced characters be hard mode
@Ultimate L but it's especially weird in situations like this where they're all doing the same thing doesn't matter if your team rose or team dark you're still going to be facing down eggman's armada
@Ultimate L I know but I'm agreeing with the opening comment here it makes more sense if the more inexperienced characters are the hard mode not the easy(I'm not saying that using different characters with different levels of skill for difficulty modes doesn't make sense in fact I think it's quite a reasonable explanation but I just think how they're doing it feels a bit backwards)
@Ultimate L yeah now you understand where I'm coming from and presumably where the op was as well
51:11 then he does take over the world in Sonic Forces and STILL doesn't pay the Chaotix. Can't belive they never addressed it in Forces. How embarrassing.
how do you think the chaotix were able to become major leaders of the resistance. theyre the ones buying all the wispons
This really was the end of the Sonic Adventure saga from the standpoint that it's Sonic's adventure from his point of view, and is set within this idea that there's a larger play beyond Eggman running the show (be it Chaos/Tikal in SA1, Gerald/Shadow in SA2, and Metal here).
Imo, Shadow's game seemed to be the epilogue that fully draws a line under this era for Sonic, but instead of it being Sonic's point of view, its Shadow's and true to the idea, he really does put the past behind him upon his realisation of what actually happened.
Hell yes, I love how you never skimp on video length. Keep 'em comin'!
This
I owe a lot to Sonic Heroes. It was my introduction to the Sonic series, which I love, flaws and all, but also my introduction to video games as a whole, leading me down the path to want to create games myself. The environments, characters and game mechanics are all so interesting and out there that they showed me just what is capable in making video games.
Sonic Heroes, to me, is an abridged Sonic game, showing us the base characters and their relationships, while the environment and unique gameplay indulge the senses of its players. Hang Castle is one of my favourite stages, due to how the level is designed around gravity swapping. The Eggman Statue that also shows a Metal Sonic statue when you turn upside down is a brilliant set piece that builds into the level’s main mechanics, while being nice foreshadowing.
I would personally love another Sonic Heroes, or at least another game that utilises the team-based mechanics, because this game means a lot to me, and I feel like the mechanics were too unique to use for just one game.
To be honest I love the sonic heroes story. Like you stated it may not be nearly as well written as sa2 but it's still a really good sonic story and the whole arc of metal sonic going insane in this game after all his defeats in sonic 4 is probably one of the most amazingly epic things in the franchise. Alongside sonic and the black knight ending ,sonic unleashed and obviously both adventures games. And I am really hoping sonic frontiers has this level of asowmeness that unleashed and black knight did especially since the setting of the game seems to be similar to the latter. But yeah sonic heroes. Pretty dang good story any crazed sonic fan can bite their teeth into and enjoy
Sonic 3nK, Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Unleashed are as excellent as any Sonic story can be.
@@millabasset1710 Not sure why people like Unleashed's story.
been bingewatching all your stuff for a day now lol, keep it up :)
grew up during the age of conflicting sonic games (06, secret rings & black knight, unleashed & shadow the hedgehog) so it'll be cool to see when you eventually get to those lol
So it's a stretch.. but I can't shake the feeling the sonic riders series takes place in this continuity, the futuristic style is really only seen in these games, and it makes me wonder if the master emerald even exists here 👀
Grand metropolis exist
I don’t mind Amy defeating Eggman or that the same sonic characters appear throughout the series.
I do wish knuckles leaving angel island was explained but I don’t mind him being in other games.
I think some characters are too essential to just ignore for long periods imo.
I understand your points but I think it could be solved by simply having explanations.
One aspect I like about the story of Sonic heroes is Team Chaotix and their overall importance to it. Out of the 4 main campaigns, theres is the one with the least amount of stakes. It is basically, "do work for client to get money to pay rent". While the others have more "important" stories. Team Sonic must stop "eggman", Team Dark are formed out of mutual interests. Shadow wants to recover his memories, Rouge wants treasure and omega wants sweet old revenge. While Team Rose is find and rescue friends who were kidnapped. And yet the campaign that has the biggest impact on the twist is the one that feels out of place. The one that feels, "wait, why is this even here"? Also helps that the Chaotix trio are more or less reintroduced to the series with Sonic Heroes. Since Knuckles Chaotix wasn't received that well. And not many people would've played it as it was a spin off game. While Sonic heroes is a main series game.
bro, i am surprised that i found such a good channel that hasn't been discovered by a lot of people yet, emphasis on "yet" cuz i can feel that you're going places man, i'm currently binge watching all your sonic videos and it's been a blast
i hope you keep doing these, i enjoy them quite a lot :)
I find to be odd that a lot of important dialogue that explains more about the Team Battles only occurs in-battle, and the majority of players never hear those dialogues because each character has one line for when one of their teammates fall off, and the one who fall off won't have it's line triggered, making very hard to see some lines because of how bad these Team Battles were made, since most of the time all teammates die instantly.
People say that Amy doesn't really care about Chocola or Froggy when they meet Sonic, but that's only by watching the cutscene, because in the actual battle characters actually show concern and talk about this "kidnapping thing", this is a major plot point for Team Rose but it's perfectly possible most players won't hear those lines.
Same applies to Team Dark and Team Sonic, in the cutscene Team Sonic doesn't show any concern about Shadow, that only happens in in-game dialogue where they are actually worried about him not remembering them.
I think those lines should have been triggered as the battle goes on and not only when a certain teammate falls off.
I think Chamy serves as a great contrast with the other members, while Espio and Vector are much more serious, Charmy helps have a more fun chemistry in general. While being "useful" for an actual team is really debatable because the same could be applied to Big, Cream or Omega, those characters didn't really have any reason to be created other than filling trios, Omega's entire existence doesn't really serve for anything other than making the gameplay concept work, I think Charmy follows the same, his role doesn't impact anything plot-wise, but his presence is nice to give more contrast and fun to his team.
A nice thing to add about Espio's character is that in Japanese he tends to use different vocabulary than the rest of the cast, a good example is that all other characters when leveling up they'll say the modern Japanglish "レベルアップ(_reberu appu!_)", but Espio is the only one who says "レベル上昇 (_reberu jyousho!_)", which is an actual Japanese word for "ascending/rise", which I think gives a more classic Japanese style to him to fit with his ninja character.
Your point about the way Sega is using Sonic characters is really interesting and I can agree mostly, but at the same time I think I still don't like those one-off characters that only appear once or a few times, while you can create full plots in one single product, the more interactions I see with a character the more I feel connected with it and feel that it's important, which is also why I don't like series that always has one new character in one episode and never show up again, it feels like none of that was that important, like it doesn't belong there at all.
I think it should be a mix between the two sides, I don't think characters should show up once or just a few times, but at the same time pls don't have the modern games bullshit where not only there is absolutely no reason for characters like Knuckles or Amy to appear but also being horribly written and out-of-place. If Shadow only appeared in SA2 I don't think he would still be nearly as popular as how it went, so having characters people like appearing recurrently is something I still like and can totally understand why Sega does that.
It might undermine and give less value to specific moments but what can I say, I don't want Shadow to only appear in SA2 even if that's my favorite game (In other words, I want to have more voice lines of the Japanese cast while it's voice actors are still alive lol).
Yeah, what is it with Sonic Team putting story details in gameplay in a way that makes them so hard to see? SA2, Shadow and I think 06 all have those lines in the final bosses that you have to go out of your way to hear, and this as well. So weird.
I like Charmy, it's just from a practical perspective it's funny how useless he is. I think of like Sly Cooper and how each member has something to contribute skills-wise.
I totally agree about Espio's speech. His choice of words in Japanese is a great gimmick that makes him stand out and adds to the ninja vibe. And his voice actor does a killer job.
This is where I think spinoffs could have done so much for the series. We could have had more games focusing on other characters and their lives outside of getting involved with Sonic.
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@@Pariah6950 Yeah, spin-offs are also a great way to add more content to the series without compromising the main timeline.
I would freaking love a spin-off game focusing on the Chaotix trio and their strange cases. Vector, Espio and Charmy have awesome chemistry with each other.
Forces also does this with the final judgment level, casually explaining that Infinite and the jackals were created by Eggman all along, and then you destroy it the lab and it doesn’t get addressed again.
59:35 Nah man he said it himself, His purpose has always been to destroy Sonic, thus solidifying himself as the True Sonic. He's a machine limited by the very purpose he was given. His ambition to destroy Sonic by attempting to out-Sonic Sonic will always be doomed to fail and it is impossible for him to go beyond that even by trying to do so because of his purpose.
We can't all just deathbeam Sonic from across the park while he's on a date I guess lol.
I can't say I agree with everything here, but this made me think. A lot. And I really appreciate the depth you took one of my favourite games in the series.
Amy was made as Sonic's love interest, chasing Sonic just as Sonic chases the next adventure. If she's meant to run after Sonic on his adventures, then logically she has to be able to do much the same stuff he can, even fighting Eggman.
You gave a good explanation for why Tails and Knuckles didn't use super forms, and Sonic's relation to the emeralds is only strengthened by Unleashed. I'm just wondering why (lore-wise) Silver of all characters got to go super.
I figure it's just a case of him being like Sonic. He's just randomly one of the lucky few with that ability. Shadow is surprised when he does Chaos Control, so I think it checks out even more based on that.
@@Pariah6950 I read theory that hes like a future descendent of sonic or shadow so I think it make sense if he carried it genetically
Though I feel you probably wouldent be into that explanation I think
@@soulbound2 That's plausible enough, I guess. It doesn't really matter one way or another.
@@Pariah6950 nice! Because personally I like the theory and I'd gladly accept it as my headcannon haahhaha
Yeah I could understand the explanation, but at the same time, I think Knuckles specifically should be able to go super due to his connection to the Master Emerald, and the Chaos Emeralds by extension. He used the Master Emerald to neutralize the emeralds in SA2, and literally punched Sonic out of his super form in 3&K. The latter was likely a mix of Sonic being caught off guard and having only used the emeralds for two games, and Knuckles possibly using his familiarity with Chaos energy to neutralize them right then and there.
One theory I and some others have about the Rouge thing was that Shadow is informed of the events of SA2 - he just doesn't care. He's very specific on what he wants from eggman in both the dub and sub. Not to know what happened, but for his memory to be returned. He recognizes Sonic and makes a joke about Rouge, implying he knows who these people are. It's possible that Rouge did tell him, but he wants to be able to remember himself. This arc is continued in S06, where he decides that he doesn't need his memory to define who he is, as he has friends around him.
It really doesn't
Shadow says All of this in his spin off game not heroes
It is explained later in the game that that is the real Shadow just being looked over by Eggman, Easy to misdialog...
Apperantly Fang, Bean, and Bark we're originally meant to be in this game. And Amy, Cream, and Rouge were going to be a team
That is an interesting detail. Makes me wonder if Cream was supposed to originally be a romantic interest for Tails, considering Amy and Rouge are both that for the other equivalents. I could definitely see Tails having a childlike crush on her working.
55:16 Consider this. The "Super Saiyan Problem" is due to that higher levels of power can only be achieved by the Saiyan. Unlike Dragon Ball, the Chaos Emeralds in Sonic allow ANY user to obtain infinite power. Then when you consider every other game where allies other Sonic get to become Super, whether it be Shadow, Silver, or even Blaze the Cat, if team Sonic is going to go Super it's not out of the question for all three to reveal their super forms instead of that weird shield thing.
Pariah's take here was weirdly flaccid, there's just so much wrong with it. Tails I get, but Knuckles...longstanding guardian of the Master Emerald itself really can't transform? Yeah, right. And then there's the implications of Sonic keeping the majority of power for himself, which is thematically supposed to be what Metal is doing. Yeah, Sonic still has friends while Metal doesn't, but it means more when those friends are giving all they can, in kind. The bubble shields naturally confuse, because they deny this. They suggest that Sonic is the one with the real power, and his friends are just there. That's a totally bad outcome for a game all about everyone playing their part as best they can.
@@megamillion5852 I couldn't have put it better myself.
@@megamillion5852 Honestly conflicted between both sides on this. Wouldn't allowing it in Heroes put SA1 and SA2 into question, since it would make the point that Knuckles could have stepped in to help back then too?
@@arsenal4444 In SA1's case, it seems pretty clear that it's about performance. Sonic having the most experience going super makes him the most obvious candidate. Tails mentions that Sonic should be able to use the emeralds' "real power," with Knuckles chiming in that as much as he'd hate to admit it, he "thinks Tails is right on this one." This dialogue wouldn't make sense if Knuckles were referring to the pisitive energies of the emeralds. Why would he hate to admit this...because Tails is right? Does he no longer trust Tails and his intelligence? Very unlikely. (This also further emphasizes Shadow's role in the Final Hazard, considering he was fundamentally designed to be a Super Sonic stand in, and why it would make less sense to have given him a bubble shield, if we felt inclined to wonder)
@@megamillion5852 It seems to me that your framing of the point on SA1 is that the option was only one or the other, for the sake of greater effectiveness, whereas I don't see why both going super is not an option that would have been altogether superior to choosing either one. Which just circles back to my previous comment.
For SA2 you seem to just point out that it would not make sense for shadow to get the 'super bubble', which I agree with, for those same reasons you gave....nonetheless idk how that tangent addresses what I said before, which is that if Knuckles went super in Heroes, it would beg the question of why he didn't also do so in SA2 as that would have helped tilt the odds in their favor.
I think a good word to use when discussing story elements in Sonic Heroes (and good number of other Sonic games actually) is Ludonarrative. I've only ever seen this word used in the phrases “Ludonarrative Dissonance” and “Ludonarrative Harmony” but I think the word works really well on it’s own for these types of discussions. If you don’t know this word, “ludo” refers to gameplay elements, so Ludonarrative is the intersection of gameplay elements and story elements. Not every video game has an actual plot with a beginning, middle, and end, but EVERY video game has a Ludonarrative, and I’d actually argue a strong Ludonarrative is required for a game to be good.
Just to sort of further illustrate my point look at a series like Smash Bros. Smash Bros games rarely have stories at all, and even when they do they’re never the focus of the game, but despite that I’d argue that Smash Bros’s biggest appeal and the main reason the series is so successful is the game’s EXTREMELY powerful Ludonarrative. Like, when Sephiroth was announced people’s excitement didn’t stem from calculating how his giant ass sword was going to affect the metagame, it stemmed from a goddamn gaming legend being added to the game, being able to play as all these different iconic characters and fight each other with them is why the series works so well.
Getting back to my main point, Sonic Heroes really doesn’t have a particularly strong story, you said it yourself, this is an arcade style story, cutscenes exist to justify the gameplay and rarely do much beyond that. This game’s strength isn’t in it’s story, it’s in it’s Ludonarrative. The main theme of the game is teamwork, it’s not particularly interesting or groundbreaking theme on it’s own but it does work as a useful framing device for blending the core gameplay mechanics with the game world, which is absolutely required because the core gameplay mechanics are bizarre and unnatural from a narrative standpoint (Knuckles wearing Sonic and Tails as boxing gloves for instance). And on the flip side the core gameplay mechanics force the characters to stay in groups of 3 for the whole game, which means you don’t need cutscenes for fun character moments, they arise naturally from the gameplay. The end result is something I do agree is narratively satisfying, but it’s not really because of anything the story is doing. Sonic Heroes also has some of the most diverse and interesting level environments of any game in the series, but from a story perspective the stage themes have very little to do with each other, and there’s not a strong in universe reason for why the characters are jumping from place to place at the exact same time in the exact same order. It doesn’t really work from a story perspective, but it works really well from a Ludonarrative one.
I actually think strong Ludonarratives are one of this franchise’s biggest, most consistent strengths, of all the games in the series Lost World is the only one I don’t like to at least some degree. But at the same time I don’t think having a strong Ludonarrative is the same thing as having a strong story, and I think identifying the difference is important for these types of discussions, because it helps us understand which aspects of the game are working which ones are not.
Also totally unrelated to the rest of my comment but I agree with what you said at the end about other characters turning into “Sonic” characters as opposed to characters that live in Sonic’s world. Honestly I feel like they could have pretty easily had their cake and ate it too if they were just willing to further explore the idea of spin offs. Show us what Knuckles is doing while Sonic is on the other side of the planet or how Blaze spends her time when she’s not travelling between dimensions, I think most characters in the series could lead their own franchise if given the chance. If Shadow’s game wasn’t such a critical failure I think that’s probably the direction they would have gone in.
Takashi Yuda once said that Knuckles was supposed to be a side character. Which makes a lot of sense, but after he became super popular he became a main character that has to appear in every game. SA1 decided to build off the Japanese manuals of the classic games of the ancient civilization so Knuckles had good reason to be in that story. However in SA2, this presented a dilemma now that we don’t good reason for Knuckles to be hear what do we do, they broke the Master Emerald again in SA2 and ignored in Heroes. Battle presented a good solution to this, in Battle it’s stated Chaos appears when something really bad happens, so whenever the world is in danger Chaos can guard the Master Emerald. This is idea is supported even further in TailsTube 3 where it’s stated Knuckles only comes down when Sonic can’t save to world on his own. HOWEVER, they completely ignore this and just have Knuckles off Angel Island even when the world isn’t in apparent danger and Chaos very clearly isn’t on Angel Island (Battle (ironic), Rush, ‘06, Colors DS and Forces’ Prologue) and in Heroes it seems like the Master Emerald is unguarded since Rouge stealing it is a threat. It bothers me they have the perfect solution to this problem and they almost NEVER use it.
I've been waiting for this, please do every mainline sonic game, I love the way you tell the plot
Your take on the Sonic Team's use of the "cast of characters" is very interesting and I agree. Not every character needs to me in every sonic game. For examples in Super Mario games, Donkey Kong doesn't need to be in every Mario game because he is his own character with his own things going for him. This thought process could open doors for the more popular characters to getting there own games maybe?
In my opinion, DK is a differing example because he branched out into his own series (Or Mario branched our depending on how you look at it)
You don't get DK fans asking for more DK in the Mario series because they can just go play Tropical Freeze.
charmy doesn't just repeat what vector says because he's a child... it's because charmy is male bee... a literal drone.
48:03 - "The Chaotix are the Ed, Edd n Eddy of the Sonic Universe"
OMG now I cannot stop picturing it in my head since EEnE is one of my favourite cartoons growing up.
That was fucking hella fast. You're becoming one of my favorite channels, I love your commentary style.
Awesome work done! Hope that next story will be Shadow the Hedgehog because it's OST (some really good tracks are there and story progression is partially told through music, like GUN Fortress is considered to be too calm for one of final levels, but it actually shows that Shadow is sure about who he is and no longer changes sides) and story (but Semi-Hero Hero ending really got a tear out of me) are a lot of times overlooked because:"This game is so DaMn EDgy" and "Shadow with guns? Thats sooo stupid" statements from people who didn't even complete or play the game.
GUN Fortress and Final Haunt both are insanely chill for final levels. Personal favorite path option outside Last Story is Hero Space Gadget to beating Doom at Final Haunt
The thing about sonic characters only needing to show up sparsely is a regularly recurring aspect of the series though, even at this point. Not only implicitly by way of their often heard phrase "long time no see" signifying they aren't always glued to each other but there are a good amount of sonic characters who are absent from mainline games. Really tails and eggman are among the most prominent of recurring characters.
Some characters come and go exactly like I describe. But others not so much. Off the top of my head, Knuckles in Lost World. Literally pointless for him to be there. He's just there to be there.
The biggest culprit of this is Silver. I'm gonna talk about this in a video when we get to it, but logically after 06 erases Solaris from existence, the future Silver was born into no longer exists. The world events would be so different that Silver would never be born. But not only does he continue to exist in a totally different future, he is constantly coming back to the present again and again because his time is repeatedly put in danger. It is the dumbest possible way to keep having a character that really should have been a 1-timer.
@@Pariah6950
These incidents are so sparse though. Silver has like 2 other appearances in the entire series after 06. Knuckles hadn't shown up in a game for years until lost world, it boils down to a cameo at best. Blaze has 2 canon appearances only. Chaotix show up in Heroes, then Shadow. We never have a canon appearance of Big again. There are just so many outliers to this idea, I think.
Character appearances tend to overlap the most when it's a big world trotting adventure where most if not everyone is involved because they inhabit that planet. Shadow the hedgehog for example, despite the games flaws everyone is busy doing they're own thing completely detached from Sonic specifically. This isn't a hard rule though since Unleashed is that but has a pretty small cast.
I admit there are cases where it's completely unnecessary like everyone being around in 06, specifically Sonics group and egregiously blaze. Other than that the characters there have pretty plausible reasons for being there. Feels a bit disingenuous to imply that most are there just to be there, the series never had a cast as big as heroes ever again.
It's not just about the main games. It's about the Sonic franchise in general. Like last year they did the monthly short stories on the Sonic Channel. Every single one is Sonic travelling around looking for the Chaos Emeralds, running into "Sonic characters" at every turn. Of all the people on the entire planet, it happens to be that Sonic's friends are always wherever he goes, and conveniently right near where the Chaos Emeralds happen to be. Stupid.
@@Pariah6950
If we count none-canon material anything flies really. Why is Knuckles hanging out go-karting in Sonic Drift or scheming with Fang in Sonic Triple Trouble as opposed to him guarding the Master Emerald?
I feel this sentiment could work if it were consistent but it hardly ever is, even in spinoffs with Questionable canonicity. There are simply times where Sonic and his cohorts hang out and some where they don't. Were they always concerned about Sonic and glued to him it would be cause for concern, and so far only Amy and Tails seems to consistently fit that bill.
I see no reason to dismiss everything other than main games as non-canon. Silver is reintroduced in a spinoff, and Battle is relevant to Advance 3. As long as it does not blatantly contradict with other things, I'd call it canon. And the Sonic Channel stories were written by the writer of Forces. Going by the main game only logic, Metal Sonic's last appearance without time travel nonsense is this game. But that doesn't change the fact that Metal has been around and his character has been wasted.
29:44 right now her only objective is to find eggman's tresure she can tell shadow about it later
while I agree with your argument on the use of Knuckles, I feel like Amy's entire character is following sonic and ever since Adventure 1 she's proved to able to be more of a hero like Sonic - her leading Big and Cream feels more of a natural progression than what Adventure 2 did with her character
Also I feel like this is something the films have solved straight way, Knuckles is involved in Sonic and Tails' adventures because they're now all protecting the master emerald together - its sad as it removes angel island as a concept but I feel like it works better in the long term when keeping Knuckles around as a member of the cast
I disagree about Amy's story in SA1. I talk about this in my story video for that game. Amy's story there is about her becoming capable enough to defeat a single Eggman robot that Sonic could easily defeat, and saving just one bird and reuniting it with its family. Meanwhile, Sonic takes down armies of robots and saves the world. It's a story about her managing to become a hero in her own small way despite not have the strength and abilities of the other characters. When she suddenly becomes as strong as anyone else, it doesn't work for me. It betrays her entire arc in SA1. Growth is one thing. Ignoring her originally intended purpose as a character is another.
Here's the thing. I don't want a solution to the Knuckles problem. I always see people try to come up with explanations or ways for Knuckles to be able to go on adventures with Sonic. But that comes from a desire to keep Knuckles around as a main character, just because. I don't want a way to justify him to be going on adventures. I want him to do what is right for his character. He doesn't need to be a main Sonic character, and he shouldn't be, imo. I say leave him on Angel Island and let him stay there, where he belongs.
@@Pariah6950 my reason is if the world gets taken over then angel island will get taken over
I think a neat explanation for Sonic not using chaos control as much as Shadow is simply because Sonic's chaos control is worse than Shadow's. Not only is Shadow the "ultimate lifeform", but also can use chaos control without an emerald, meanwhile Sonic can only use it with an emerald, and although Sonic X is not canon, in the japanese version of the show in the finale as Sonic is about to use chaos control, Shadow knocks him out, and says that Sonic's chaos control is horrible.
In regards to your thoughts at the end on how the franchise should be treating its characters, I feel like I see your point, And even to a lesser extent agree. I think these things about this franchise is that a lot of Sonic fans really like the lesser used characters, and want to see them return, or at least like their designs enough to want to see them expanded upon.
Sonic characters are cast from such a unique, interesting, and flexible mold that each character stands out in their own ways in design, and sometimes personality. With the design so good, it can often feel like a waste not to use them. This is why people don't often ask for more human characters to come back, since in comparison they're just, sort of, dudes. And all of that is not to mention that because of scope and/or under-prevalence, the video games tend to an affect more similar to movies than episodes of a show. A character appearing in a game Feels more like the introduction of King Bumi then of the fortune teller woman, so people will inevitably want to see more of them and feel there's more that can be done with the characters that what has already been done.
The the obvious solution would be "spinoffs" (AKA games focused on characters other than Sonic), since then they wouldn't have to justify why they're intersecting paths with Sonic, since Sonic doesn't even _need_ to be there (though of course, there's no reason why he couldn't show up occasionally). I think Blaze is the best example, since she explicitly lives in a whole other dimension, making it hard to justify her inclusion, but adds plenty of space for creativity that doesn't have to interfere with the main Sonic titles, and even allow for her own cast of characters. The problem is that these types of character focused spinoffs have historically not done so well in the Sonic franchise Between Knuckles Chaotix, Shadowed the Hedgehog, and even the 8-bit Tails duology. So I imagine Sega and Sonic Team are very reluctant to make more of those, blaming the concept instead of the execution. It would still be nice though.
Sonic Heroes is one of the best Sonic games ever made and personally it’s my favorite. However I do have to admit I wish the game explained a few scenes here and there why things were happening and such like Knuckles being there when you stated in the video. What they should’ve done was show Tails meeting up with Knuckles on Angel Island and asking him to help against Eggman but Knuckles would refuse since he has to protect the Master Emerald, however Tails says he needs to find Sonic since nobody has seen him in months and Tails thought he would do the next best thing and see Knuckles for help. In this scene Knuckles could say either no and he won’t be apart of the game, or he could help but he brings the Master Emerald with him which subsequently means Angel Island falls again for like the fourth or fifth time but if it’s a world conquering situation then they would maybe need it. Then again they really didn’t need it since Super Sonic rekted Metal Overlord, so I see how frustrating it is to include Knuckles in a game like this but at the same time who can you replace him with since Sonic Heroes is all about teamwork with a group of three, speed, power, and flight. I guess you can say Amy tags along but that would mean Cream and Big would be excluded from the game entirely which at the same time makes sense for their lore since they are simply side characters. One more thing I would like to address is Shadow, his character in this game is done right and as we see in later games *cough cough* 2005 *cough cough* he doesn’t reach this level of excellence till ‘06 out of all games. Shadow as a character for this game being an amnesiac hedgehog is a great idea, however I feel like they should’ve explained it more, like Rouge telling him events that happened before piece by piece, Sonic and the gang meeting up with him and trying to convince him to remember them. Things like that make me want to rewrite the game itself entirely and establish a continuity throughout the adventure era (SA1, SA2, Heroes, and the 2005 game since it’s referencing and going to the places from SA2 and we don’t ever do that again till generations which is just a anniversary game). Regardless though, I still enjoy this games layback story telling and it’s a shame that Neo Metal Sonic or Chocola never get introduced again in a mainstream Sonic game outside of comics and spinoffs. Like you said, so many missed opportunities. Also nice job with these videos, I was hooked when I saw your SA2 story video in my recents, keep up the good work! Looking forward to the 2005 game of the year Sonic title XD
As a kid, I pretty much had always just assumed that the reason why Tails and Knuckles don’t go Super is because the Chaos Emeralds only have the power to transform one person into their Super form.
And then for Sonic 06, I had just assumed that Sonic’s power had increased since Heroes and that he was finally able to turn other characters Super as well.
All that “male hedgehog” retcon bullshit had completely went over my head, and to be honest, that’s probably the way it should be. As a kid all I played was Sonic 3K and this game and my childhood mind didn’t notice a thing different between the two of them.
But in Sa2 sonic and shadow both went super lol.
I actually agree with your endpoint, that the franchise cast should be a drop in drop out kind of story, where characters of a cast be included based on whether they'd add to this particular story or not and not based around them being popular recurring characters.
That said, I don't think most characters should be one and done entirely, and that occasional returns of beloved characters would actually be more fitting than never seeing them again.
People keep asking, why doesn't Rouge just tell Shadow about "his past"? Well the answer is simple: she only knows so much. Mainly the broad strokes. She knows he's the "Ultimate Lifeform", codenamed: Project Shadow, Created on the Space Colony Ark by Professor Gerald Robotnik over 50 years ago, using government funding (possibly from G.U.N.), and he will sometimes stare off and mention the name Maria which also seems to be the password that everything related to Project: Shadow uses for some odd reason. Oh, and his prototype precursor was a GIANT! FUCKING! LIZARD!
Besides that, she knows absolutley nothing else. She could have easily told him all of that, in fact I bet she did as these are things he will mention post awakening, and none of his actual memories would come back. Every person who calls this a "plothole" seems to think that someone who only knew Shadow for a month, at best, can somehow give him a lifesworth of memories back with the limited knowledge she has of his previous day to day experiences. While his memories and friendships with Maria, The Professor, the people who lived on the Ark, his favorite foods, his day to day routine, his time spent with friends, his likes, his dislikes, his favorite past times, his adventures, his love of knitting, his lifetime achievements, his graduation, his worst fears, his great times polishing his collection of novelty Elvis collector plates, All Gone. A blank space that not even Rouge could fill in.
If there was any written documentation or better witnesses of his time on the Ark to help maybe trigger those memories, the only people who would have access to that are the G.U.N. Commander (who hates Shadow's guts and will shoot him on sight), anyone who was on the Ark (all fucking dead except our dearest Commander), Eggman (who is acting weirder than usual in this game and telling him he has no past because he thinks he's a robot or some shit, also It's Fucking Eggman nothing he says is trustworthy), or Black DOOM (whose comet hadn't flown by yet, also he didn't exist until a couple years later). So he's shit outta luck there.
One thing Shadow's game does that is fascinating, story wise, that no one ever talks about is Black DOOM letting him physically relive some of those forgotten moments, however even those are tainted and untrustworthy. Because Black DOOM is cherry picking events that will make the amnesiac hedgehog easier to sway to his side. So showing him one good adventure of helping Maria clear out the ArtificialChaos infestation in The Ark, and then showing his best friend getting mercilessly shot, without also showing him her sacrifice at the escape pods and her final goodbye will change Shadow's perception of those events the same way Gerald's memory tamper did.
TLDR: There is more to a creatures memories than just their name, place of birth and cool sounding title. Just because Rouge tells him those things, does not mean that all his memories magically come back.
The issue is that in Shadow the Hedgehog, he very clearly doesn't know anything at the beginning. So it's evident Rouge did not explain a single thing to him. The fact that he doesn't recognize Sonic as "the blue hedgehog he apparently fought with before dying" is evidence enough that he was told nothing.
1:16:50
You know what I just realized, AoStH, in a way, is one of the best adaptations with this point of view.
Rouge doesn't explain Shadow past because she doesn't know if he is a clone or not. Remember, Eggman said there is no past to remember.
I wanna live in a world where team chaotix are the yakuza LOL
I love how your channel is busting with subscribers you're getting like 1k a week or something
So congrats man
And as always. Great video ,keep them coming
It's really funny that Shiro Maekawa said that Charmy was his favorite character.
I miss Omega's funny chaotic personality. Nowadays his personality just seems to be that he's a robot so he must do robot things. The robot sounds and stiff movement they put in 06 is so bad, it's like they don't want you to forget that the big metallic thing is a fucking robot lol
56:12 while i do agree with parts of what you're saying AT LEAST on baseline Knuckles should be able to have a super transformation seeing as how he is connected to the master emerald and his tribe in sonic adventure 1 used them as well to wage war. so wouldnt it make sense that the guardian of the emeralds would have a way to utilize their power as well?
I have an idea about Amy. What if you made it so that Amyvis more of a support character, collecting and storing powerups to give to Sonic in order to help him get through the levels, and she wouldn't be "playable", per say but would be more of a dynamic NPC, kinda how the party works in Kirby 64.
I had the exact same idea. I think that could work really well.
In response to your last segment, a more episodic approach would make a lot of sense, but the issue is that people grow attached to these characters, so SEGA not making them reoccuring characters would be missing out on catering to that desire the fandom has. I don’t think Shadow would be as beloved if he didn’t get like 3 different games that centered his character growth. You can’t have that if the characters never appear again.
Knuckles needs a sidekick of some kind who watches the master emerald when he is away, and I think that person should be either Mighty and/or Ray, Bark or Fang.
Maybe even Tikal or the spirit of Tikal, or the good Chaos. Post Adventure 1 story.
I think a way you could easily explain why Knuckles is away from Angel Island is that Tikal and Chaos could take care of it when he's needed elsewhere. Sure some may question why they are still in the Master Emerald, but I think their "ending" was fairly open-ended enough where it wouldn't be a problem. Sonic Battle showed that he was still around if my memory serves me right.
Obviously this shouldn't be overused, but I think it would work as a good enough excuse for Knuckles to go out adventuring.
They could do that. But, maybe it's just me, I don't want Knuckles going on adventures. It's just not right for his character.
@@Pariah6950 I understand your reasoning for why Knuckles shouldn't be the adventuring type, and as I said, I wouldn't want this to be overused. He doesn't need to suddenly show up in every game.
But for me personally I don't see anything wrong with Knuckles having a bit of freedom instead of being chained down to guard duty all the time, with Chaos no longer a major threat to the world any more.i think there can be some character growth done with a character who had always been so distant from the world now being able to experience it. If done right of course. Now the Master Emerald is still a powerful object that should be protected, so Knuckles should still spend a majority of his time guarding it.
This is just my own thoughts and random ideas of course.
Sonic Heroes was my first Sonic game. Anything related to Shadow's story would've gone over my head, so the simplicity of Omega being Doom Guy for robots and Rouge being in the driving seat because treasure was a good way to be eased into the setting. Same with Chocola and Froggy being kidnapped without getting bogged down with explaining SA1 lore.
When I played Sonic Frontiers, part of me had to wonder how that game's references would've sounded to someone who didn't know what an "Angel Island" or a "Chaos" was. Probably still more cohesive than... anything related to Blaze the Cat.
I love listening to this dude waffle on about this series, almost always hitting a particular thought that I had about things. Like the characters showing up all the time.
In sonic 3 and knuckles that proficiency on the wall in hidden palace or level 11 supports that it is sonic that can harness the power of the emeralds and the super emeralds and that’s because battling eggman he crash lends eventually a second time and finds out about the master emerald but if that didn’t happen he probably would still find it at some point and unless sonic stopped him in some other scenario knuckles would not be able to use the emeralds to go super and stop him.
I had some time to think, and - ignoring the Shadow game - nothing really suggests that Rouge didn't tell him.
She's the one to exposit that Shadow couldn't remember anything, and when confronting Eggman Shadow's only question is what he was doing on that base.
Plus, like... Rouge knew, like, the bare minimum details. Created in a space station, deployed to Earth, may have been recovered, may have had a new version created, then designed to cause the apocalypse and changed his at the last second and died in the process.
And like, saying "your amnesiac memories might not even be real" is pretty shit information.
And Rouge wasn't some random stranger, she and Eggman probably had the most information out of literally anyone at the time and it's still barely scratching the surface.
It's only when a 2,000 year old alien warlord arrives where someone with real answers exists.
After the fight with Team Sonic, Shadow wonders to himself who is that hedgehog that looks just like him. So he clearly doesn't remember and Rouge didn't tell him anything.
@@Pariah6950 Oh right lmao.
I never claimed that he does remember, but yeah that fighting game level of writing really hurt Team Dark's full story.
Maybe Rouge just felt this one blue hedgehog was less important to explain than that big shiny green rock hahah.
What you're asking for at the end is basically a world that feels lived in. Having characters that have their own lives and stories that Sonic gets involved in, but ultimately after it's done they go back to their lives while Sonic goes on more of his adventures. It's the type of stuff that would make Sonic's world not only feel more interesting, but also just much larger given there's no telling what kind of characters or adventures you'd run into. Having much of the cast revolve around Sonic ironically makes the world smaller, since you lose the illusion of them having their own stories. Instead of it feeling like Sonic just got involved in something that was already happening, it feels like he's always the one who starts it. And outside of what he does, there's nothing left to explore concerning other characters.
I've definitely played and enjoyed those kind of adventure-type games like Klonoa or the Ys Series. Where the main character goes to different places, has an entire journey with new people they meet and arcs only for said mc to up and leave and probably never see them again. So I say the main issue with the Sonic series doing that is that it's hard to commit to it when you have the same villain each time. Like a lot of the games take place in different areas with different characters, but the fact that it's 95% Eggman being the cause of those adventures already makes the world revolve around Sonic in itself. Because wherever one goes, the other is to follow
Because of that, it makes more sense why characters like Knuckles would reappear so often. He's guarding the master emerald, but the one guy who is the BIGGEST threat the master emerald thus far is constantly trying to conquer the world. So of course Knuckles would go out of his way to stop him rather than waiting for Eggman to win then go after the master emerald far stronger and with less advesaries. If anything, this makes later games that don't have the entire cast make less sense. I.e. Unleashed where Eggman summons a god of destruction and splits the world into pieces. You'd be right to think everyone Sonic has met in his past adventures that can do something would want to do something
Or Colors where said same villain builds a giant space amusement park chaining together different planets. Or Lost World where said villain's machine is used to suck the literal life out of the planet. And let's not even get into the idea of the chaos emeralds, the biggest power source in the planet. The problem with the "adventure series" concept for Sonic is that in order for it to truly work they'd have to put in a lot more work than characters that don't reappear. New villains, new mcguffens, lore, the whole works. It's why games such as Klonoa or the Ys Series either don't have many games are their are really far apart from each other. It's not an easy thing to do and, for a massively popular series like Sonic, probably not smart either.
48:21 "I don't know what the heck Charmy contributes to the Chaotix". He's literally the only one of them who can FLY! And, he's much smaller than the others, making him better at infiltrating through and/or into smaller spaces. He absolutely adds skills and utility to the team they would otherwise be entirely lacking without him. As for him being annoying, yeah, to most people maybe, but Vector and Espio seem to think of him and treat him like a little brother. Yeah he annoys them sometimes, but they care for him and they want to look after him and keep him around.
Further elaborating on that Sonic and Shadow can only use super forms since only they can control and harness Chaos Energy Point, I wanna bring up the future here as well; specifically Silver The Hedgehog.
Sega doesn't want to elaborate on Silver's ancestors, but with Silver being a Hedgehog that can also control and harness Chaos Energy,
It's likely then that Silver is a descendant from Sonic, which would make sense as to why he can control and harness Chaos Energy.
26:58 the Manual in English saids the last and most powerful of dr eggman's e-series robots decommissioned and left inprisoned at the base omega was reactivated by mistake as rouge release shadow and its implied that omega's been there for quite a long time meaning omega was build long before the events of this game
I always thought that Sonic Heroes was meant to be a homage/final farewell (As of the game being released) towards the classic game as well as fusing it with the more modern design of the Sonic series at that time.
I also do agree that Knuckles being out and about when he should be guarding the emerald is weird as hell. Especially since it could easily be patched up with Knuckles saying something like "Oh, I got a trusted friend to do that for me." Or something like that. Maybe make it another big Sonic Character doing a Favor for Knuckles.