Rafael A. Mangual - Making the Case for More Policing | The Daily Show
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- Опубліковано 26 лип 2022
- “More policing means less crime, and the people who benefit are the people who are dealing with the biggest crime problems,” argues Manhattan Institute senior fellow and “Criminal (In)Justice” author Rafael A. Mangual. He and Trevor discuss the defund movement, the role street culture plays in officer engagement, and racial disparities in crime data. #DailyShow #Comedy
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I respect Trevor Noah for having someone on the show with opposing views.
It's new and different, and it's cool to see him engaging in a totally different kind of interview - with way more pushing back against - and finding his way in a developing aspect of his professional persona.
It's not as comfortable to watch, but this kind of dialogue is vital.
In theory I agree. In practice, this is essentially the tamer version of interviewing Marge T Greene as if she's sane.
@@victoriaeads6126 I get where you're coming from, but I have to disagree. It seemed like they at least agreed a lot on what the problems were, but disagreed more on how to solve them. Honestly, I'm just interested to hear more about it, a longer dialog. MTG can't even have a rational conversation, but these men absolutely can.
This is not the first. He welcomes all to the table and shows common ground but calls out the BS all the time. You should go back and watch more interviews
@@coldracerx you're probably right, I should. I have pretty limited time to spend online, and the week's interviews that show up in my feed don't have many of this kind.
It just feels more like that liberal fantasy of if only we could just sit down and talk we’d reach common ground and they’ll have an epiphany. Dialogue means nothing when your adversary can’t be dissuaded.
Trevor Noah has to be the best host to actually have a conversation with a guest who has a difference in views in a civil manner.
My thoughts exactly.
But his leftiivism is on full display and that means, by definition, disgust for the other point of view. I like Trevor, and I admit he can guide these feelings better than most, but the contempt is present.
@@truthnjustice8315 trevor has never affiliated himself with either side, daily show has historically made fun of either side, its factually correct in saying many right wingers have ridiculous claims, so they receive more attention. the fact you label him as leftist is a display of your projection
i dont think cutting people off during the entire segment is holding a conversation, this wasnt the best interview hes done, far from it
@@youraverage90sguys7 I never said it was his best. But I guess we'll agree to disagree. Although Trevor did interrupt the guest he usually let him finish his point and apologized.
This is the way two adults should talking when they have disagreements! Great interview Trevor
Fostering a positive debate culture is perhaps the most underestimated urgent necessity in US political discourse. Seriously, people just throw phrases at another elsewhere. Trevor deserves mad props for opening the door to that a little wider.
Agreed. Trevor’s interviews with people he disagrees with should be part of examples shown to kids about conflict resolution and debate.
Too bad we'll continue to be murdered by police en masse. But hey, as long as they talk about it with civility.
The Republicans need to watch this interview so they can learn how to sit and have talks with Democrats. Lol
It’s an adult with a scam to be honest - Trevor is just too matured for that clown 🤡
I'm from Baltimore. I have NEVER encountered a helpful cop. During my years as a delivery driver I was robbed at gunpoint twice. I would have rather had the money go into fixing streetlights, so I could navigate my surroundings, rather than the cops that blamed me for daring to be a woman delivering pizza at night. Also, BS on the force. I have seen multiple people cold clocked out of the blue and worse. I have permanent nerve damage from zip cuffs because I dared to mention my rights during a stop and frisk. I was just walking to the grocery store on a nice day. I've had my home busted into at 3am because the PREVIOUS OWNER had a warrent. If they had bothered to look on the computer before busting in they would have seen that the house had been under a new owner for 6 months. Let's say it together, CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION!
I'm sorry to hear you had to go through all of this. I just made a comment regarding correlation v. causation. There are a lot of other factors that have brought down crime over the years that have nothing to do with policing.
.. ....
N
The author kept talking about what the data doesn't support. However, we must all remember that each data point represents a person. So, data practitioners must never forget to anchor the numbers in human outcomes.
Trevor's evolving interviewing skills also demonstrate that he is an impressive successor to Jon Stewart.
Some cities police aren't allowed to do anything about robbers, so maybe bring that up to your politicians.
@@Brain_With_Limbs ??
It's easy to forget Trevor is a comedy host while he picks apart arguments like this with clinical precision. This was also a masterclass on how to find common ground even while far apart which is a much needed tonic for current times.
He's a legend in the making, no question about it.
And I absolutely agree 100% about the common ground. But only to a point.
There are people I don't think we should do the "we can agree on this" thing with, as it makes them seem like possibly reasonable humans, when they're actually a hellbeast.
I don't know exactly where that point is, or even how to determine it. But it's there, and aught not to be crossed.
@@willbephore3086 who shouldn’t be allowed to debate with others?
Trevor Noah has excellent word salad
@@willbephore3086
“The true test of a man's character is what he does when no one is watching.” ~John Wooden
To me, that quote is a guidepost for everyone. Yes, we all make mistakes; we're human. To admit those mistakes, to be humbly sorry for those mistakes, to make restitution for those mistakes (if possible), & to never commit those same mistakes again IS what a person with integrity does. The people whom you speak of do not have integrity. They will, once in a while, do the correct thing but it is few & far between. Perfect example: Dale Carnegie was a total b*stard while he was alive yet in his will he left all his money to start or continue wonderful endowments. Does that excuse his behavior while he was alive? That's a perplexing question.
He learned some ways from Jon I suspect.
Maybe let’s try actually putting generations worth of significant money into social programs before assuming they don’t work.
No no can’t do that, gotta pump more into bloated policing
Especially since more policing hasn't worked. Look at the war on drugs and it's impact on mass incarceration. Also, the punitive approach leads to more recidivism as opposed to rehabilitative approach. There's a reason why we strayed away from "disciplining" children and why employees are getting more and more fed up with employers that lack any empathy. Without any infrastructure for rehabilitation after doing the time we are essentially dooming them to stay in the system indefinitely. Kinda crazy how incarcerated firefighters get paid pennies for their service and aren't allowed to utilize that experience to become an outstanding citizen within our society
Yeah maybe. But of course, there are those who would literally come up with EVERY and any solution OTHER THEN funding for poor and middle class folks. It should be immediately obvious who those people are truly interested in helping.
AND, before starting those programs, actually ask the people to who those programs are directed what they need & want, what will work & not work (& the reasons for either possible outcome). I'm so sick of outsiders, people who have no clue, deciding what will be beneficial to people who are not them. UGH. eg: get better textbooks... yeah, great, but how will that help a kid who hasn't eaten all day or got very little sleep because they were working all night.
We should triple the number of police on the streets and double their salaries
The author is showing exactly what is so frustrating about statistics - they have limitations of scope and cannot always take the full picture into context. As was rightly pointed out by Trevor, one major reason so many people are repeat offenders is because they cannot access options along "legitimate" pathways for jobs, housing, food, and other needs. If being incarcerated stopped being a for-profit scheme and became rehabilitative (which has been shown both nationally and internationally to benefit the people inside and communities outside of prisons) those problems would be cut substantially. But, yes, it would take time, reform, and money. In America we don't shut down corporations that benefit rich people just to help humanity heal.
Exactly, to only look at the hard data without understanding the social construct such as the overall effects of Poverty is to miss the majority of the story. If you live in poverty then more times then not you're not getting the bet education and missing out on critical thinking skills, you're not getting the healthiest food, food Deserts; you home, clothes area that you live in is bleak and you can, many times, turn that inward and not believe that you are worthy or loved. If you cannot love yourself how can in be that you love other people that look like you. You deem them all as unworthy and as such don't believe that it matters if you harm them. Your inward hate becomes your outward actions.
The guy was talking both sides of his mouth. Trevor did a GREAT job in exposing his delusional doublespeak nonsense.
Especially statistics collected by police...on a subject of crime and police
Cope
There are plenty of places that have faced extreme poverty and lack of options, and also did not have high rates of homicide and crushing crime.
Has Mr. Mangual ever had to report a crime? Every time I've tried to report a crime, I have been discouraged from doing so by police. Essentially, police can, to some extent, control the data. Since the police have control over what crimes are reported, Mr. Mangual's data might be skewed.
Trevor is 100% correct about where is this data coming from. Under what circumstances were the recipients of the police interaction reporting? Within the police station? How long after the interaction? What types of people were sampled etc. etc. etc. There are so many factors that I think this data is absolute BS, I wonder if the book goes over the methodologies of the collected data (to prove reliability).. Then he says his father was police LOL like obvious emotional bias inherent in his need to manipulate the data to reflect increased police presence. Sounds more like a snake.
They get to write the history according to them. Sadly it’s almost always riddled with errors and untruths. Some cops try but most go for close enough assumptions.
Wow I hadn't even realized the last time I reported a crime that they discouraged me from doing so. I am certain the police knew who the offenders were and took so long to respond that the criminals had time to flee. I hadn't even know that was common
Wow Trevor is a savage
I mean it's also wild to hear him say that trauma is the cause of crime and not poverty. Living in poverty isn't a trauma? Also, stating data about "previous arrests" ignores the trauma of multiple arrests and police harassment.
I always love Trevor's debate, he is so professional in analyzing and clarifying the subjects
Democrats are looking to soften up the USA for a foreign invasion, ESPECIALLY on the west coast of USA…Gavin Newsom CA “laws” to run firearm makers, sellers out of the state. I am convinced he is working for malicious foreign government……C H I N A
@@damian7723 Democrats are looking to soften up the USA for a foreign invasion??? I don't think so, so wrong dude!! it's just so complex to have a comment on that
he's really not though, he's a detractor that constantly misconstrues and interrupts to protect the leftist position of the establishment.
@Sheesh I cannot say no because the debate must have digging to each angle to clearly it
A civil discourse between 2 people with differing views??? Where am I I thought I was on the internet?
Think this should’ve been played fully on tv. I love this interview. I love this friendly argument.
Is this not a TV show?
Yes, he need a talk show; in additionally.
16:25 That is absolutely on point, Trevor. Tackling the root of crime has to be done on a generational basis. It isn't something that can be seen on a 2 year, 4 year or even decade long scale. Poverty ruins generations and pushes people and their kids and their kid's kids into desperate situations.
The lock em all up quick fix will never resolve the root issue. Yes, lock violent criminals up but equip them with the chance to reform and more importantly for their kids/relatives to break out of poverty and desperation. That'll resolve much of the issue of the trauma that leads to crime as well.
rafael makes this mistake several time, he looks at changes now, and then associates them with recent events, and not changes a generation back, such as the huge drop in violent crime associated with reducing lead levels
No, people here are missing the important context.
Everyone is passing over the fact Mangual has reported in his book the nearly 20% drop in people incarcerated since 2010. The anti-policing, and anti-incarceraton movements that popped up in the wake of BLM. The Fergusin Effect where police have pulled back and criminals are emboldened. Progressive prosecutors who are part of that near 20% drop in prisons. Arrests have dropped from nearly 14 million nationally to 10 million.
we can help them as much as we want, but if they choose to live happily in food stamps and government assistance, we can't do much. Maybe we are not helping them right way or/and maybe helping needs to come within themselves first.
On the issue of violent crime. If someone is doing 20-life for a violent offense the damage that they have done to their kids and family is almost irreparable. No second parent in the home (mostly fathers which harms young men the most), no second income, and a bad example. There is almost no reformation for that. Communities need to be reformed. Prison is gonna keep doing what is does. Which is locking away criminals. People need a reason to not turn to crime and that starts with the community.
@@sevenballonu the point of the whole generational argument is that if a single mother with two kids is on food stamps and receiving government assistance, it’s not about getting the mom off of these programs. Keep her on the programs for as long as possible, let her get both kids out the door and through college so THEY can get better jobs and increase their standard of living. The mom may never be at a point where she doesn’t need government assistance but with it her kids have a chance to never need the programs/ start to build generational wealth so that their kids (the mom’s grandchildren) will have an even easier time.
Secondly everyone like to talk about “welfare queens” and Snap/EBT people who are too lazy to get jobs and support themselves but it’s not a walk in the park to get into these programs. It can be a long, invasive, demeaning process that discourages a lot of people from getting the help they need
This was a challenging but very meaningful conversation. I think having a full picture of these very nuanced situations gives us a better chance of making progress
It was very challenging, because he is so wrong. Every research around the world have shown the primary reason for crime is poverty, it leads to depression, trauma, mental illness, addiction and alcoholism.
It was hard. because he is wrong. He is a pseudoscientist, he has an opinion "it's people's own fault" and he took the data to resemble his views.
He knows his stuff, but he is lying to himself and us.
@@justadad6677 I think if you take a step back, you will see the validity in some of his arguments. While poverty is a strong indicator of crime, it is only one of the factors. As someone who comes from a 3rd world country, I’ve seen entire communities live in abject poverty and still have strong social value. I believe social factors contribute more greatly than economic. His main point of law enforcement and justice system as a way of stymying crime is also true because the only thing criminals tend to care about is consequences.
@@JuwonTheTechie No. I have seem the validity in those claims. They are so obvious. Wow, really people commit less crime if police is around. Color me shocked.
But Trevor is far more right.
I care only about reason behind, and not as much as preventing people from committing crimes.
The facts are simple. Poverty is the biggest variable in crime, addictions, violence, suicide and so much more.
While police must certainly help, it solves nothing.
I want to solve the issues a much as possible, get rid of poverty. Then train police to handle reality (longer and better training), the hire however many we need to keep peace and safe. And I can guarantee it will be far less cops needed.
To be fair to both sides, this issue is complicated and deeply ingrained in US culture, yet Noah only focused on one segment. On the other hand, as an aspiring data scientist myself, the data might have correlation without a clear indicator for causation. Some of the conclusions Mangual seems to draw might not be a complete picture. This was an important discussion, regardless, and I'm glad Noah is assertive and intelligent enough to call out statements or arguments with which he disagrees.
If you are an aspiring data scientist, you should realize that looking at small sections of data here and there(what Mangual is doing in order to justify his theories) is far less helpful and misleading than looking at the big data that Travor has pointed out.
Patterns in small and focused study samples can often times being influenced by undesired and unnoticed biases, yet the big data are the actual population. That's why Mangual have almost nothing to defend when Travor brings up the fact that overall data suggests that more police does not bring down crimes.
I know it's unfair and very subjective to say that Mangual is purposefully trying to paint a false picture with random pieces of data he can gather,;but due to that fact that he did not try to explain why his claim is not supported by the big data; I would still suggest that he made his claims either from preconceived bias that he failed to recognize or he is purposefully conducting such behaviors for personal gains.
Exactly. When you are doing any research & gathering data, usually your focus point is very small. One team of researchers will gather information to find 'outcomes' while another research team will gather information to find 'causality'. Rarely do you see one research project cover a subject in its entirety- cause to outcome. Those types of studies take years to gather the necessary information. That was a point Trevor made. How much time do you allot a specific plan of action before you decide whether it was successful or not? You need to lay out benchmarks along the way to see if progress is being made. If progress isn't being made, you need to reassess to see: if the benchmark was unclear, unachievable, or if additional tools need to be used in order to hit that benchmark.
@@harrytan5579 All research studies start with a small group. The purpose of that is to find possible patterns. Once you pick up the patterns, you start working with a larger population. Most research outcomes have a probability of +/- 3, so you have to see if the patterns remain consistent amongst the larger population.
I think Trevor was focused on the underlining racism that the author identified, but refused to admit his meaning in his description of a person wearing cornrows. That is the whole issue with how police target people.
his numbers and conclusions are complete fabrication. he lives in an alternate reality
Raf didn't mention for profit/privatized prisons. Where the more inventory (prisoners) means more cash for the stockholders.
It goes so deep in many directions. Money for policing people . They create the crime at times, like at protests.
He is a "free market" pos.
Yep including the racist school to prison pipeline being fed by cops in schools( where they do not belong). Cops disciplining children in school is insane. America is insane
We love you, Trevor! You fearlessly get your point across with great knowledge and respect. You know how to successfully argue with great points! Thank you! So refreshing to watch.
Terrible interview..the host was disgustingly aggressive towards his guest..using his control as the host to push his many disagreements with his guest & continually emphasizing that his points were definitely the correct viewpoints. I was absolutely disgusted by Trevor's behavior.. interrupting the guest.. acting like his viewpoint was the correct one over &over. Absolutely using his leverage as the host to try to win point after point.😡😡😡😤👌👎👎👎
@@juliomartinez6417 ??
'Taking violent criminals off the streets' may reduce future crime (otherwise potentially committed by the recidivist), but it did nothing to prevent the creating of that violent criminal.
The violence already done has been done.
How do we prevent the first violence from happening?
Exactly
Starts in the home. A child/children with married parents...a real family, husband is a man wife is a woman raising healthy normal straight kids. The man goes to his great job he was rewarded with for all his hard work going to school and graduating from college. The woman knows her role in the house. Cooking cleaning laundry yard work kids etc. Everyone is productive members of society and happy healthy and thriving
@@justinkase8369 lol I have no idea how you got from raising children not to commit crimes to women should stay at home and work in the kitchen. Women and men can both work and children will be raised well, there are different arrangements, childcare, or the woman works and man stays at home, man works and women stays at home. The point is none of these arrangements necessarily negatively impact the children long term
@@ocean6462 You say so
@@justinkase8369 I agree with some of your principles. However, you aren’t addressing, racism, discrimination,sexism, and disservice to non caucus members of society that has been and still is going on til this day. Even with mothers that stay home with children, what about ppd. Equal rights should extend to all.
Trevor these are the Emmy making interviews buddy. Keep it up
Trevor you miss your calling, " A lawyer" you Represent very well.
Can trevor and someone who can be his counterpart both host the next election debates please?
No candidate would answer his questions- LOL.
Yes!
Where is homeboy getting his numbers? There are no rules for police data reporting. There should be a national standard for reporting and a public database for police precincts nationwide.
❤❤❤YES🥰
Yep
In this comment section, comments stated times the police wouldn't take a report. This is book is his perspective. He hasn't been violated by the system. Let him darken his skin for a year and travel to areas that don't know him such as Sundown towns. He comes across as the protected privileged with resources. All 3 affects his perspective.
This is The Daily Show at its best. Trevor is an excellent interviewer, and doesn't let his interviewee get away with platitudes. His guest is thoughtful and educated and can clearly explain his views. Even though Trevor (and I) don't necessarily agree with him, he came correct in making his argument. This interview educated the audience as to how close the opposing views are while illuminating the differences that did exist. More of this please!
I love how Trevor pushes back against the implicit biases that fundamentally influence his arguments. And let's be clear about the idea of the "revolving door" issue pro-police advocates always bring up: a lot of police misconduct causes violent criminals to be acquitted. Profiling, improper conduct during arrest and incarceration, and basic chain of custody and reporting inconsistencies and mistakes on the part of police make it impossible to prove guilt more often than police will ever admit. When people argue for police funding, they very, very rarely advocate for increases in training and proficiency requirements for police in basic clerical skills.
What strikes me is how much Trevor Noah reminds me of Bill O'Reilly. He'll ask a question, get half of a response and then interrupt to clap back. It's great for scoring points with your viewership, who can talk about how 'hard-hitting' you are as an interviewer, but doesn't make for great debate.
With more policing their is less crime. Well, yes, if you live in a police state, where policing is valued over the rights of their citizens there usually is less crime. Is that the state we want to live in? The moment this man said 1989, I know he has no idea the dynamics of the US Criminal Justice system and the destructive effects on the black community. Crunching numbers doesn’t mean you can make decisions about people’s lives.
Well, thing is, the issues that cause crime in society and, the problems with the criminal justice system, are not matters that will be solved overnight. More policing is not an unreasonable short term interim measure to reduce crime, while society in general sorts out its problems.
Are you old enough to remember when black folks used to complain that there weren’t enough police presence in the black community? This was early 90s.
Exactly Michelle. He is manipulating data. He admits there is not enough research into other community programs. Yet he argues that what we do know is that harassing and jailing blacks is the solution. False incarceration has destroyed the black community and this was done purposely throughout history. It was advanced by Reagan and accelerated by Clinton. The system is determined to destroy black community, destroy their family structure, undermine their wealth and progress, and rob them the vote. He know this but presents no data to support his assumption that the other programs do not work.
@@pekainvest if I were a racist white person, I would vote for liberal prosecutors. Because liberal prosecutors in office means more criminals will remain in the black community and more criminals in the black community means more blacks will be robbed, beaten, and killed. for the life of me, I can’t understand why we don’t realize that the liberal soft-on-crime approach is destroying our community and putting our lives at risk. Look what Larry Krasner did to Philadelphia. Look what Alvin Bragg is doing to NYC.
Am I really watching a guy go on TV say that the roots of crime aren't social economics?
Would killing your spouse due to an affair be social economic?
@@joeblack007 Most crimes are not of that nature. 96% of criminal offenses are not violent and the remaining four percent is mainly made up of robbery and assault. Cases of voluntary manslaughter, such as your hypothetical, are rare. Even so, socioeconomics likely would play a role within your scenario. Economic issues are the second leading cause of divorce in the US and are a major cause of strife in and outside of marriage. Oftentimes, people may also be forced to stay in an unfulfilling relationship due to necessary funds from their spouse. Economic issues always have influence on social issues, even if at first it isn't obvious.
It is sad
Right...the thing is there is no ONE answer. I agree with him that trauma plays a huge role but I don't see how he completely rules out economics and doesn't see the role of overpolicing in that trauma
Tbf it's not, thats a blanket for everything but it's mostly christian-white supremacy as well, at least for the history of america
Yes, Trevor. The way you are able to tackle seriously frustrating, racist assumptions is incredibly insightful, mature and wise.
Exactly. The author is aware of his racism, but won't admit it. Sad.
The problem is those that are victimized don’t always answer surveys due to fear.
Making survey results off by how much though on average over large samples? If the effect is large, a more focused study should attempt to get survey respondents as comfortable as possible, perhaps also trying and comparing blind ballot reporting. Attempt to get a number or percentage on that fear and underreporting.
@Allan maybe...my stats professor once announced "there are lies, and big lies, then there are stats."
But the surveys are also whack. If we pick a community that is (or is said to be) victimised, whether one believes they are or they’re not being victimised, just as an example. This can be a community of poor people, disabled people, people of color, LGBT or young black men….or anything we can agree on!!! I believe surveys should be looking at what percentage of THAT community has been violated would be a better survey than sampling them in relation to the entire country. The results then would justify that it is okay to violate a particular commitment because they are so tiny in relation to the entire country! For example, If community X has 1m people, violating 500000K equals violation of half(50%) of that population; however when you look at 500K people in a total population of 330m people then you are looking at 0.15% of the entire US population, so the sampling is wrong!
An awesome interview everybody in America if not the world should watch. Two very smart people explaining things in different prespectives that we can relate to .
Trevor has no data to backup his argument. His is based on personal opinion. Rafael has been doing research and the data is speaking for itself. Fair enough.
@@osmanmohamed-msonjey5158 He mentioned rehabilitation reducing crime. That has a lot of data behind it
@@silversheep7369 yes, but at the moment Trevor s not in reference to any specific study. So, he should accept what s on the table.
This guy def lives and was raised in a completely different socioeconomic class than who has the majority of police interaction.
and his father was a policeman LOL he's off on a totally different worldview and bias and perception of the real world
And yet he is bringing the facts out that the people in those communities do not.
Correct!! I was wondering what country he was referring to. His book is gaslighting and his "thesis" is the same as the people fighting against critical race theory or facts
In the South African, it is like having a white man(adult) telling a black man how and when to get over apartheid, when he has no experience on the impact of apartheid on me as a black man!!!
Trevor is so frickin' smart. I love him. Just love him.
Me too. My husband doesn't him. He's black and a Libtard, like me except I am not black.
Me 2! Intelligent! Smart! Wisdom! Fair! Integrity!
@@linawiers4715 he's also adorable! Ever watch him visit his grandma?
He’s not smart at all
@@jeremya.695 says somebody who i never heard of. Yeah, i would count your opinion 🙃
Wow!! What an incredible interview! Trevor is such an all rounder. So intelligent on so many levels.
Absolutely LOVE the quality of conversation. Love the ability to think and speak to another with civility even when disagreeing. At times things get a little hot but always able to come back to a state of civility. Excellent conversation and deep thought on a subject that effects everyone.
Some very satisfying push back from Trevor in this episode. Not letting people wiggle around implicit assertions. This is the kind of interaction I expect from Trevor because I know he’s capable of it. He’s very sharp and very fast, exactly the tools needed to dismantle and dissect these kind of positions. Great work Daily Show Team 👍
18:04 Thank you for getting on his case over anecdote. Can’t sell yourself as a data guy and get away with relying on anecdote. Because now we can play the “but what about George Floyd etc etc etc” game. Knock it off man, if we are going to use data then use data.
Truth be told, I had issues with how both Trevor and Rafael were classifying things that they thought were the core problems.
This is a multi-faceted problem and does not have a single simple solution.
I think this was a great interview. More like this!
I got caught in this bias the other day . I looked out the back door of my work to alley parking lot and a black guy was strutting down with his back pack of belongings . very muscly and no shirt ( College town ) yes he had a strut . I watched him continue south toward first street and closed the door and went back to work . Five minutes later our vocal teacher who is black showed up and she said " I just saw the cops going after someone in the alley " . I said " maybe it was this suspicious looking character I just saw " . She asked me what was suspicious about him ? I said well , I don`t know , he looked kind of homeless or something . Then she asked , " was he black " ? Wow I felt very called out on my own prejudice !
Wow you are So interesting 🙄
You would have never looked at a white man and said that. If he was lighter skin, do you think he would be suspicious?
Trevor is the best interviewer, EVER. Thank y'all
I really don’t understand why he said poverty has nothing to do with it when most crimes happen in a place of poverty….
And I agree with Trevor. If there is something in place for children and money is put into their educational system as well as the way they socialize and build I believe that the rate of crime of those children who become adults would go down. If I’m being abused at home physically and mentally as well as in the area I live. If there’s a safe reasonable place that not just educates me but has programs in place to help handle things differently and keep me off the streets I believe that would place a huge role for people stuck in that cycle of life. People in poverty tend to have way more liquor stores open late and unhealthy food options everywhere as well. Basically no gyms just basketball courts that aren’t taken care of all that effects a person well being as well. Also almost no pay or opportunities in those areas are given. Mental health as well as physical health plays so much of a role on how we as humans handle stressful situations and go about our day to day lives.
So again I don’t understand how poverty has nothing to do with crime when it happens mostly in places in poverty and low income.
@Allan I don’t think you read what I said…. I never mentioned opening up businesses there. I said there should be healthier options and less liquor stores and things should close early in order to reduce crime in one of the options to help. There’s plenty of businesses in low income communities with a high poverty rate. One thing they all have in common I’ve noticed as mentioned above is the amount of unhealthy places and the unhealthy options are open till late and available at almost every corner.
If I was to mention opening up new businesses it would be healthier if more opportunities for the people there were given classes and options to do so within their own community that would be affordable and beneficial for the people there with clearly strict guidelines to help keep in place the time they should close and what the business consists of just like getting a loan for any regular place. This can happen if they start children young with a healthier mind set. Especially focusing on being the turtle not the rabbit because some people think fast money is better than slow money. But in reality fast money (drugs robbery ect.) never helps in the long run. There’s so many ways to clean up the issues with those communities. The culture isn’t the problem it’s what’s surrounding it.
I commend Rafael Mangual for coming on the show to speak about his book and defend his stance. It was refreshing. I also feel that a lot of people actually agree with Rafael Mangual but are afraid to publicly and openly and honestly express that point of view.
Excellent conversation that I’m so happy to witness
A genius comedian and a profound and critical thinker. Very proud of you Trevor Noah. Much love and respect ... from South Africa.
Great interview. Trevor asked some hard questions and probably did more news work than some reporters that work larger networks.
Brad you’re right
How are you doing?
LOVE this kind of discussion! This is exactly what the news panels should be doing!! Sad to have to rely on Comedy Central to get it. But Trevor is GREAT at it!
In 2015 the United States population was 4.4% of the world's population yet the prison population was 21% of the worlds prison population explain that. We incarcerate more people than any other Western civilization in the world we can't comment on Rehabilitation whether it works or not if we do not try it.
I felt like this guys argument was basically we’ve never done anything that works to rehabilitate people but it would be nice if we could but oh well we just need to keep locking people up with no attempts of rehabilitating. Gah, he really is deep in the data and missing the forest for the trees.
@@violettefemme21 I couldn't agree more
This guy doesn't understand the nuance of crime or policing for the very communities he says he's trying to get better policing for.
EXCELLENT DISCOURSE TREVOR! You are one of the most brilliant Brothers on the planet👍🏾✊🏾👏🏾 I totally appreciated the way you engaged him, and had him look at the situation from the inside out. Profiling and stop and frisk should not happen in the Black community until and unless they are going to do the exact same thing in caucasoid communities where most of our mass school murders appear to come from. Additionally, any police precinct where an officer fires more than two bullets at a Black person - such as 90 bullets at an unarmed youth whose back was turned - should immediately be shut down, the chief put on probation, and all the officers must undergo comprehensive psychological evaluation - and the perpetrating officer is under immediate arrest and isolation from any and all of his fellow cronies and held for questioning they way they would an African American arrested for walking while Black. The penalty for not wearing a body cam, and for not having it on during an encounter is 69 day suspension without pay, and retraining (unless of course they have fired a weapon, used a choke hold, etc) - then it’s arrest, suspension for 120 days without pay, and a fine. If there was a death involved, and no body am - do not pass GO STRAIGHT TO JAIL - NO UNION BAIL for at least a week. I have a lot of respect for NYC’s 100 Blacks In Law Enforcement Who Care. They have often had to watch our backs as well as their own - especially when Giuliani was the ersatz mayor, and was deliberately recruiting caucasoid racists to the police force from the backwoods. Much like the ones who follow the ersatz former president. This was when the escalation of open season on Black youth, stop and frisk and other bad policing practices really became the rule. Thanks for having a keen mind, and the intellectual fortitude to take a stand. Amandla!! Stay Blessed & ECLECTICALLY BLACK. 👍🏾🙏🏾👏🏾❤️🥰
The analogy of the pilot confusing the runway with the mountains as it pertains to police making incorrect decisions based on perception is spot-on and brilliant.
It was clever - but it misses the point that the runways are not actively TRYING to look like mountains - which in fairness, was Rafael’s point.
It is easy to understand why - in a tough neighbourhood kids might want to appear ‘harder’ from pure self-protection - but when they do, you can hardly criticise the Police for also picking up on that.
A really difficult thing to resolve, in which you can honestly understand the actions of both parties.
Conversations like this are truly so refreshing and needed today, thank you!!
Open the refrigerator-door and your kitchen's temperature momentarily drops.
This may lead you to believe, that keeping the refrigerator-door open will cool down your kitchen. It will not.
Repeat after me: "Correlation does not equal causation"
If cops stopped falsely arresting people, and prosecutors stopped encouraging false charges, then people would respect the law again.
That was one of the most informative, productive, respectful conversations I've seen in a long time. I wished more people talked like this.
Tell him Trevor. 👏
First, Great job Trevor!
Cuz this is an emotional and pyschological subject for many Black People.
Just as I've been hearing for over 40 years of life "this survey" says this and "we took a poll and it shows" that..I've NEVER BEEN asked a single question about anything ever, let alone the issues or opinions I've reported been recorded or considered.
If the data is being reported & collected by one side (the law enforcement agencies & goverment entities) then his data is incorrect and inaccurate! There is way too much time and money spent investigating and reporting for no (or slow) action to be taken to see change, for no (or slow) solutions to be implemented, and for the main thing - for justice to be served.
WE NEED A JUSTICE SYSTEM IN AMERICA, NOT THE BROKEN CODE & LAW ENFORCEMENT SYSTEM WE HAVE NOW..cuz IT IS being biasly and unfairly enforced on Black, Brown, Youth, LGBTQ+ and other groups of People..ask them! Corruption is rampant.
This level of PR - campaining to save the police reputation by blaming the citizens, the courts, the prisions, etc. is pointless. REFORM AND RE-ALLOCATE THE FUNDS TO HELP PEOPLE. JUST DO A BETTER JOB - PROTECT & SERVE.
It's not a zero-sum game. You can increase police spending AND increase social spending AND improve prisons (de-privatise, focus on rehabilitation). An interesting thing about America is binary thinking.
If his argument is that the culture is criminal and that it is the cause of crime rather than poverty ie material conditions he's forgetting that material conditions create culture not the other way around.
During the depression, there was overwhelming poverty. The difference between then & now is that then, there really was an ability to get back up on your feet. Today, those avenues are gone. My Mom told me, that for her to attend college, all she needed to do was register for a class, buy the book, & show up. She was not the only person to take advantage of that opportunity but today, that opportunity no longer exists. Kids are dropping out of school in droves because they don't see how finishing school will afford them a path to financial security (& I mean covering basic needs). You can't blame them. How do you plan for the future while you're starving & homeless? And yes, my Mom's family received food assistance during the depression. My Grandmother was a widow at 45, with 5 kids. She took in laundry & fostered kids to make ends meet, AND she was totally illiterate. She went to night school when her oldest son, my Uncle, went to Europe in WWII so she could read & write letters to him. She was in her late 60s at the time. Now imagine my Grandmother's scenario in today's world, 'getting by' would be virtually impossible, & the prospect of all 5 of your kids graduating HS & your 2 sons graduating college would be none existent.
It was a great honor watching Trevor Noah interview himself about Mr. Mangual's book. On a few occasions, Trevor was even willing to let Rafael finish a sentence, so long as that sentence was in agreement with Trevor's views. All in all, a very revealing experience.
Preach it Trevor!
My thing about the whole increase in incarcerations I think he should probably point out that they should not incarcerate unfairly. Because sometimes they'll arrest people for no earthly reason or for a very small issues and they stay there for 20, 30 years over a small offense so whilst the idea of increasing incarcerations may make sense you might want to look into the whole justice system to see if that ain't need some sort of reform as well because one thing to Ask for an increase in it it's another for you to then get incarcerations that are unfairly treated so there should be fair treatment regarding those incarcerations in other words don't arrest people just because. Arrest them because they might actually be committing a crime
Unfair incarcerations are 100% very very real. In spite of Batson v Kentucky in 1986 which prohibits rejecting a potential juror based solely on race, the data show that all this has done is forced attorneys to learn how to ask the right questions during voir dire (jury selection) so that they can find a reason to reject a juror for any other reason.
Oh a potential black juror wont be rejected becsuse they were black, but hey their cousin was arrested once for a drug crime. Bias!
Potential black jurors are asked significantly more questions during voir dire than potential white jurors when the defendent is black. This is a fact.
Moreover, as i said in in another comment, you have to watch halfway through this before he specifically says "violent crime" which is the only thing that anyone truly cares about.
For literally anything else there is insurance -- unless he is talking about "drugs". If when he says "crime" it includes "drug crimes", then he can eff off.
We, societally, should already be past the idea that addicts and those who enable them need to go to prison as if that will actually promote rehabilitation.
His data sets are complete BS if "crime" includes drug crimes. Doubly so if marijuana is involved. And to be clear, cannabis is not my vice of choice. But it is absolutely ridiculous for someones life to be ruined by cannnabis ever let alone now.
Increase incarcerations=more dark-skinned and poor people incarcerated. How about increased jobs, money for education and opportunities. Buying his book just makes him richer and more removed from reality.
@@itsmemrsd4621you can pump more money in the hood, increase the number of jobs, spend more money on education, but none of that will matter if the current culture of the black community doesn’t change.
I have been very anxious and depressed lately about the state of our country. I've completely given up on watching the news because I am so angered by what I hear. I find so much comfort in Trevor Noah's take on what is going on in the world. Even though everything is such a mess, there are still decent people who really do get what is going on. Like honestly have a realistic view on real issues. I wish the people running out country were as smart, realistic and in touch the way Trevor is.
Awesome and interesting interview, great conversation, definitely 30 mins is not enough
The thing I don't understand about his idea of acting Street is literally you're driving your car minding your business and the police pull you over and you going to say they're acting Street if you ask them "what seems to be the problem officer?" And you are compliant how does that have anything to do with acting Street? You're literally being yourself authentically you're following protocol you're compliant. It's a bit confusing and I see where Trevor is attacking at it. And also stop and frisk should be on the table really? It sounds like a fancy way of saying yes I do support it without saying you do support it I'd rather he at least say it than have to try and find a way around it
I guess he supports it as long as it does not happen to him or to his family.
@Allan hmmmm So much to unpack there "wow you’re all such victims"
May i ask Who is the Y'all you are referring too, but then you may have answered that in the next sentence with the cornrows statement. May I ask do you have an opinion or view?
This guy is clearly governed by respectability politics. And clearly has assigned negative connotations to corn rolls (and "blackness" in general). MLK, Medgar Evers, and Malcolm X all did not wear corn rolls and they were still killed.
Easily my favorite interview. This is an actual discourse surrounding a topic that is so complex. Thank you for sharing this.
Firstly, Trevor is amazing. a very Intellectual and articulate person. But I think Rafael came out on top here. Trevor kept cutting Rafael off before he could clarify or rebut what Trevor was arguing. Rafael kept calm and handled Trevor's indirect attacks, misreadings of the data and his emotions like a gentleman. If I were Trevor rewatching this I wouldn't happy with my approach. Overall Rafael won me over
So if trauma is the root of crime, then areas with more crime have more trauma. So what is the driver of higher rates of traumatic life events? Should have drug deeper into that.
Trauma is caused by poverty and desperation of said poverty
@@toonheaded1 yes exactly, and what the guest was saying is a non-factor which is rediculous.
This is an amazing interview! Trevor ... once again, you nailed it. ❤️
Trevor! What a great debate. I would be too emotional to even begin debating wiithout having an emotional attack! Thank you for doing it for me! ❤️❤️❤️❤️
This was so well done. It should be taught to the masses. How to have a debate with respect and an open heart?
This guy wants to believe what he's saying so badly he doesn't even know what it is that he's actually saying. Trevor called him out on it so well.
This was amazing, I live in Ensley Brimingham al and cops here love to make life stressful
I knew this would be an interesting interview. I always commend Trevor for handling tough topics well, asking right questions and explaining his side clearly too.
"With great power comes great qualified immunity"
Love the nuanced discussion about the very complex issue that's hard to solve without unlimited resources tacking all aspects at the same time!
Put the tones on your name so I can pronounce it 😫 Joke 😆. I am just always curious when I see Chinese names.
Thank you Trevor Noah for being the voice of reason in this RIDICULOUS conversation. I can't wait until his next book that justifies going back to slavery. I'm sick to my stomach.
As a person who grew up in Europe it is strange to hear about research data that's only focused on lowering crime without researching countries like Sweden and Norway that produce the lowest crime rates for over 20 years. Is America too big of a country to be able learn from smaller countries? Reinventing the wheel in 2022 won't result in a new wheel, just a wheel that's believed is new, yet a wheel!
My issue with this guy is that he only believes in what he writes, he only believes in numbers but when dealing with humans the statistics only represents the surface of the problems not the core of it.
Trevor thank you so much for sharing your gift in a way that we all benefit. I love to see more of this cause there's no cookie cut solution to any problem cause that's not how our universe works
An awesome show, as per usual.
Thank you very much.
Both made strong points. I appreciate this dialogue between both of them. Both are thoughtful in their argument. I don’t necessarily agree with the guest but he articulated himself well. The “solution”
lies somewhere between both of their arguments. Engaging conversation all around.
“More policing means less crime and the people who benefit are the people who are dealing with the biggest crime problem.”
The pull quote is wrong! More police spending is not correlated with lower crime!
Based on his data, it was true. More policing does reduce crime. Problem comes in when the policing tactics are unethical or certain criminals (depending on the crime) are released ROR or not prosecuted.
@@joeblack007 His data is from police. Police have done biased research. There is a racist study which I will not say because it is bad. They aren't impartial. Class and programs need to be accurately represented in research. 5 years after a elementary program isn't accurate. 5 years isn't long enough. Education isn't equally funded across the country. Things like child care would help.
This was amazing to watch. I normally skip the interviews, but I see that I'm missing out!
Two intelligent, objective humans having a very involved conversation, but without trials or need for a triumph over the other. Wow, what an eloquent and engaging interview!
Synopsis: There isn’t a strong case for more policing. In fact the data shows there is a strong correlation between the size of a police force (ie.budget) and the amount of crime present.
Or, there's a strong correlation between money spent by cities on social services *AND* policing and the amount of crime present.
Hard cold data with out the stories and voice of those affected will not tell the true story -
And I bet the data is different for Black communities.
This interview is what everyone needs to see and hear. More policing isn't the answer. Our criminal system needs to be reformed.
Trevor Noah is an Amazing interviewer. He asks great questions and makes fantastic points and isn't attacking his guest or trying to get a sound bite to add to his portfolio. Hail Trevor Noah!
Incredible discussion, love how productive and insightful this was, great questions, great responses, respectful and thoughtful points and counterpoints
I lost him when he said bunch of other things that are leading to increase in crime even though there is an increase in police from year to year. Then instead increasing number of police, should they invest in justice system?
If he supports Stop and frisk, I hope the city he lives-in should start a pilot project by "stop and frisk" only his family members and him every time a cop see them on the street and see how he and his family likes it.
I know, the way that his perspective is shaped by his experience is kind of obvious in the way he talks about people that are "different". He doesn't experience the effects of overpolicing and stop and frisk and the trauma that comes to a community as a result of that. At the same time, he has some fair points about protecting people vulnerable to crime from others in their communities. In neighborhoods with higher crime, a lot of community members want police to keep them safe. Upper middle class liberals tend to live in neighborhoods where they don't have to deal with that s much.
But I agree with you and support defund (reduce police funding, increase social service spending). At the same time, we need unarmed "community ambassadors" or something who get to know their communities in higher crime neighborhoods and work to actually keep the public safe
Trevor was way over this kids, historical nonsense fact checking head
This is one of the most underrated posts here!!! The guy agrees that he had to change his style of clothing, hairstyle and everything because he didn’t want the cops to harass him! Yet he somehow defends police on that way of policing, which obviously leads to biased profiling, which then leads to harassment of people for their hairstyle and so on! He says that police only use force on 0,whatever percentages of interactions with the public, but if in that public there is a view that a certain group in particular is being targeted, then surely using the entire country to try and see the full picture is wrong damping; the sample of ‘use of force victims’ should be based vs that particular group of individuals, eg if police target Poor People then we’d like to know what percentage of POOR PEOPLE, not all Americans because the well off ones don’t get the same treatment and that’s a fact; so it’s what percentage of poor people do they do that to? That would give you a better idea of how hard they go on poor people!!! If you take that number and work it out based on 330m Americans then you include people that are not targets and can never be victims of excessive force by the police!!!
“His only mistake was walking past the wrong people at the wrong time,” he says without the slightest acknowledgement that this could be said for 99% of black men and women that have ended up dead at the hands of police that, “walked past the wrong people at the wrong time.”
“I’m not saying any of this is wrong” then proceeds to argue, demonstrating just how he thinks it is wrong.
Trevor you hit the nail on the head. I grew up in a middle class house hold and I have a college degree. I made some poor choices and spent 5 years in Federal Prison. I still can't get a job outside the restaurant industry. Every place I've applied to be able to use my degree I get denied bc of my felony. And to your guest this was my first offense. But I saw so many people in prison with no life skills and there are no programs to really rehabilitate inmates. It's sad bc after going what I went through I get why they go back bc 1. It's all they know 2. They can't get a decent paying job. I have great parents so I was able to start out with alot of help.
what degree?
Rafael seems "invested" in the Prison Industrial Complex $$$$$$$
Utterly brilliant conversation. This needs to happen every single episode with different guests.
I remember when Trevor Noah was announced as the guy taking over for Jon Stewart and everyone was so shocked and even annoyed. Well, here we are…. Legit watching one of the best late night hosts of our generation right here!👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Noah thank you for being so wise and have a real deep discussion. Wow. You are the tops
Nailed it Trevor!
He knows nothing. Statistics only work when reporting is completely transparent and accurate.
Really respect this debate! This is how conversations should be held instead of both sides arguing their sides independently in their own segregated space
Can we not give the Emmys and the Peabodys to Trevor now already. A bag of masterclass interviews under his belt already for this year. The Trans interview was also top shelf.
We can’t just see numbers instead of real people. Because the “mistakes” are just a moment but the psychological effect of it sticks with you for a lifetime. I got stopped and surrounded by police, in my white lab coat from medical school, with no tattoos or any other visible sign of being criminal other than being brown skinned. When the two police who approached me got back in their car and left, they hit the corner and 2 other unmarked cop cars were there waiting. They had quietly surrounded as if I was a fugitive or something. What if, despite being innocent, I got scared and ran because of some past experience like my best friend who has been beaten up almost hospitalized due to, “mistaken identity”? They probably would have killed me or at least surrounded me with guns. I had nothing on me but my books and notebooks. No reason to suspect criminal activity. Blue collared shirt, white lab coat, books, notebooks, NEXT to a medical school… but you still stopped me to ask, “What are you doing here? Where are you going??” Hmmmm 🤔 🧐 🤨 So, this whole “data driven” thing is cool…. But, there’s a human element…
Absolutely! I could see them following you for a few minutes to see if you were actually leaving the area vs circling the area but they shouldn't have stopped you unless you broke the speed limit or something. This kind of stuff leaves me shaking my head... Seriously?
"Get the cornrows back and less walk the street" Genius! He almost seemed as if he's conforming.
At 73 old I can honestly say as a military policeman in the Air Force,my training helped keep me from imprisonment on several occasions from being profiled by overreaching policing by bad cops
I've been an attorney for almost 40 years and he is wrong Most prisoners are men Most get in trouble in their 20's, but mature in their 30's and start to see the value of living straight It would be a Win-win for them and society if they could be trained to have a trade of some kind and be valuable to themselves and others
nah our recidivism rate is far too high so what he’s saying about a cycle isn’t necessarily wrong. prison rehabilitation is a problem but policing is so much less of one
Most prisons have vocational training programs & have been expanding them for a few decades. The struggle is becoming employed while having a prison/conviction record. Corporate & govt employers disregard trained, potential employees due to the percieved stigma of hiring someone labeled a past "criminal". The quality of incarcerated training is improving, the culture of discarding them needs work
@@billymadison8574 I live in CA, and this is happening to inmates who have gotten training through the fire fighting program. They're getting this great training and experience, but most local fire departments require an EMT License, which you can't get in CA if you've been convicted of multiple felonies or released from prison for any felony in the last decade, etc. Given the fire seasons are getting longer, and they could use as many skilled firefighters as possible, this is a real opportunity for people to become contributing members of society, but there's a huge hurdle in their way.