QNAP TVS-h1288X 12-bay ZFS NAS Review
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- Опубліковано 10 лип 2024
- STH Main Site Article: www.servethehome.com/qnap-tvs...
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Our QNAP TVS-h1288X 12-bay ZFS NAS review goes in-depth on how and why QNAP is building a solution the way it does. We also discuss performance, power consumption, and compare the system to self-built TrueNAS and Synology solutions.
Thank you to Seagate for sending matching drives we could use for this.
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Timestamps
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00:00 Introduction
02:11 Hardware Overview
17:00 QuTS Hero Management
22:45 Performance and Power Consumption
26:25 Pricing and Key Lessons Learned
30:28 Conclusion
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Other STH Content Mentioned in this Video
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- QNAP GM-1002 Review - • QNAP Put TWO ZFS NAS U...
- Intel NUC 11 Pro Review - • Next-Gen Intel NUC 11 ... - Наука та технологія
That's really quite clever how they're leveraging Thunderbolt... You basically get the advantages of direct connectivity while still maintaining the shared/multi-user nature of a ZFS-based NAS.
A very through review. Thank you for your effort! I think you covered all the bases on this unit.
I have QNAP TS832X and first thing was to change so-dimm from 2GB to 16GB. Few months back it was nice just to add 2x12TB drives on the fly. Noise levels are nice and I have this box in my bedroom. In few years I need to check new products. Current SSD cache is too slow for full 10G utilization and take 2 bays but with unity projects it was fine. Also work as 2 port 10G switch
Great vid! Great to see it is a Nas/Das/Server in one.
I bought it at launch when it was $2000. For some reason Qnap decided to jack up the price to $2500 a month later, possibly due to how much demand there is for this unit.
Don’t forget semi-conductors and pc components are suffering shortages and price hikes.
Good call there.
Could be component supply prices going up (being passed on to the consumer), but another possibility is they want a $2000 priced product that had less features (fewer bays or less thunderbolt maybe?) at this hardware tier, so this model had to go up.
Yeah I was kicking myself when I saw that, I couldn't believe it, but then I can everyone was doing it. 2000 would make this a reasonable price. I still ended up paying the 2,500.
6 thread, 12 core... Is that Intel's new plan to slow AMD down? Lol. I know he misspoke, but it's still funny.
hypo-threading? Thanks Mr Gelsinger
More likely the 6 extra cores are just from all the apples lying around
Thats for redundancy, if one core dies there is 6 hot spares waiting lmao
For what this is, it is great.
Definitely value in it, especially all the custom hardware.
I love my TrueNAS build but this would be a great set and forget thing.
Different target markets for sure
I want a direct attach TB for my NAS.
Nice review - I actually have one of these - the 1688 actually. Small note - I expect the reason it took so long on the initial setup is because you get the choice of running QTS (original) or QuTS (Hero/ZFS) when you first set it up. I expect this means that none of the OS is pre-installed at all when you first power it on so there's probably more to do than a usual pre-installed OS device.
Thanks for sharing!
Was just about ready to buy one of these and then seeing all the security issues with QNAP nas - backing away. Would be nice for STH to comment on this - certainly by reading the forums there have been multiple people with not-unreasonable setups who've been hacked and locked out of their data. Too bad because seems like a beast of a machine.
If you're going to run a QNAP, you pretty much need to turn off UPnP on the QNAP and disable it or properly firewall it on the router, disconnect the QNAP from the various remote access options, uninstall or disable most of the default apps, and *if* you're going to expose anything externally, only expose locked-down containers. Preferably routed through a reverse proxy or VPN.
I've had one for about 2 years, and I immediately turned off all the services, expose very little externally and haven't been bitten, yet. Though apparently my model has known issues with motherboard failure just outside the warranty window.
The form factor is really nice, but the software side of things isn't super reliable. Like, there's a photo tagging and facial recognition app that lost all the data on upgrades. Thankfully most of the worrisome bits are in separate apps you can remove, now. Since you're not using the apps and built in services, you'll lose a fair bit of the wow factor. You can also install your own OS on most of them. But if you're doing your own setup, and managing your software services outside the vendor apps, you're paying quite the premium for a svelte box with clickable dashboards. If you've got a space you can put a louder server with no worries, just do that.
Are you really sure that is the zfs-nas variants? I think it's the QTS-ones.
and most of all .... having a nas accessible from the outside (internet) is a VERY bad idea. That is probably why they get hacked. You should ALWAYS connect it trough a THIRD PARTY vpn solution, not qnap's own.
I have the 9-bay Quts hero unit and a restart takes about 15 minutes. Definitely wish they would improve in this area. I also feel like file transfer performance isn’t as fast as a similarly specked truenas build. I had the truenas mini xl+ and hit 800MBps with four drives in raid 10 but about 500 with the qnap. Both with 32GB ram.
I bought the TV-h886 and am now wondering if it's going to be enough :). Not that I'm a particularly demanding user, but you know... Moar powahh! Maybe in true homelab spirit, I'll buy this, and use it primarily, and back up to the TV-h886. Completely silly given a much lower spec QNAP could serve that function equally well.
Does it support auto tiering the storage or do you have to set up different storage teirs over the 3 locations manually?
I have the junior / prior version here... the TS-h886. It has a dual core Xeon, but is missing the 10 gig and thunderbolt. Also has 4 ethernet ports. With my NUC (the first of the I-7 boxes that Intel sold a few years ago) it can virtually saturate the 1 gig ethernet easily doing file transfers. (My older nas box is a readynas, and it simply cannot even start to get the transfer rates that this puppy gets.. 100+ Megabytes per second on SMB transfers is nice. The handling feels much like a NetApp in many ways (I worked for NetApp for about 8 years on their network support side..) -- While it doesn't have quite the depth and performance of the netapp, I'm ready to start looking for a second unit to send snapshots to for backups. (I use it for bulk storage of video and the like.) -- Truly a good box. However, there is a vulnerability out there where folk on the outside will try to break in if you are attached to the QNAP cloud... you will get LOTS of people trying to connect on the admin account. Luckilly, that is very easy to foil by just creating an additional admin level account.. say "Supervisor" or something.. give that all the needed permissions, and then disable the admin account. (I've been getting 10-50 attempt per day.. Not sure what they are trying to get to..but with admin disabled, they aren't getting to it.
Vote up, keep it up, thank you for sharing it :)
how did you configure the drives? i gave it some thought and I personally would use the 2.5 inch drives as ZIL and Cache, the 3.5 inches in for example a RAID 50 with two parity groups and the M.2s for the system and maybe for the odd VM or two.
I built my own. It only took a year of weekends and about 2 grand lol
It was a great learning experience...
The real issue is testing it finding the bugs in either the software or hardware or both
9 months of of uptime at this point
did the same. Much cheaper and more powerful than nas
What OS does this run, and which ZFS implementation?
Great review! One question though- say in the event this unit dies. What is the chance you could hook the array up to a linux machine and mount the array? I heard you can do this Synology.
One thing I would add with other QNAP systems, and likely this one, is heat build up. Whilst there does look to be reasonable cooling I have found that any HDDs under the SSD bays get fairly warm and promote that heat into the SSDs. Also the M2 slots can reach high temps under load. Talking mid 60C for SATA M2. I have a replaced my exhaust fans with Noctuas, placed a large Noctua on the top of the drive cage to move more air through and replaced the noisy QNAP blower fan (the bearings go and they get irritating) with a Noctua blowing onto the M2s. All round temps way more acceptable but cooler climes may be fine as is.
I’d replace their cooling on the CPU with a Noctua, Be Quiet etc. Those blowers will annoy eventually.
Any specific fans for the cpu blower? I haven't seen Noctua have 97mm fans. I was planning on replacing the 3 80mm ones with noctua ones though.
I have a NAS with tool-less bays, I had to replace part of it with screws though to reduce vibration noice. I definitely prefer standard screws to special manufacture specific plastic tabs.
I have an earlier QNAP and can confirm that the tool-less caddies will irritate enough to make you use screws.
Thanks
So, when it comes down to it, it's definitely more than I need but I really want it. 😁
Same!
@@asdf51501 same here :D
I have a TVS-671 and its getting slow with VM + i built a TrueNAS and it sucks. So this looks tasty. I want the best of the best CPU/GPU
@@misc8867 Since this post, I actually bought the TVS-h1688X. UA-camr Craft Computing has this philosophy that I took to heart: If it’s worth doing, it’s worth overdoing.
Good video !!
Nice evolution of my qnap 1282T and I actually used the Thunderbolt 2 card to connect my iMac to 10Gbe back in the days but I realized that the "virtual switch" is a python script that hammers the cpu quite a bit, the more you know ;)
There is a smaller 6 or four bay version too.
I would agree with your description of DAS but I would define it as Direct Attach Server. This is aimed at small businesses that do something other than IT. small manufacturing companies, financial companies, customer service companies. They have a business to run and are not interested in messing around with a server. They are unlikely to have an IT team. So a system like this that is easier to use and learn then a Windows server or a Ubuntu server offers real value. Even for a content creator. IT is not their job, nor should it be. This is also a good step up from a small QNAP system. I have a 332X and am looking for something that is intel-based (A lot of QNAP apps are not Marvel compatible). I am looking at this for workstation backup and application hosting for an email server and a database server. It will also function as a hot replica for my 332X. This third leg in my backup strategy. snapshot pool, Backblaze backup, and now a hot replica of my data. My 3-2-1 backup strategy is complete. I will have a sysnc for my workstation download directories and a full backup for each machine stored here. This is a nice consolidation server for me.
How do you compare the Synology DSM with QNAP's QTS, as far as friendliness, usability and application quality/features are concerned? Also, for how do you compare Btrfs vs Zfs? Thanks.
If you have the RAM there is no comparison. ZFS is battle tested and provides important features such as on the fly CRC checksumming of your data on a continuous basis, not just when doing a scheduled integrity check like with BRTFS. The only downside to ZFS is the RAM requirements (lots of it and ECC) battery backed up SSD for the zlog for max performance, etc. but this box easily handles them.
That thunderbolt connection would be awesome for a smaller studio to do data ingestation through. Have like a photo shoot, save it to the mac or pull it straight from the camera to the NAS and whenever thats done, maybe get a notification and light turning on saying the SD-card is emptied and then being able to bring that same gear out again.
Thats the way i'd use it at least.
That is literally what we are looking at doing. We are building a new and much bigger studio hopefully online in October.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo cool!
May I suggest some kind of Home Automation integration for easy and quick notifications? That combined with a raspberry pi Pico (WiFi version) can give you a nice hardware light controller to turn on and off notification boards or even update an LCD in real time.
It would require some hardware engineering/coding experience but if you have the time and want (one is often the limiting factor) it can be done fairly quickly. Adafruit is a company Ive bought some stuff from before and their discord is amazing for getting programming and project assistance from.
Good luck no matter how you do it and please don't forget to post a video about it ^^
Btw, HA can effectively be a pretty powerful data structure manager and act as a simple way of doing platform mediation (collecting and structuring data between hardware controllers and the Linux server its running on etc).
TRY IT. TRY having 4 people TB connect to those 8-LFF drives. :)
I was LUCKY when I got 30MBs out of my LAG'd 8-Bay QNAP with 8x HGST 7200rpm.
Same drives in my T320 get between 300-650MB/s on TrueNAS (for a fraction, WITH DRIVES)!!
Great Job as usual. Thanks Patric & STH team for the valuable info. I have 3 Enterprise QNAP systems TS-1685, TVS-1080 & TVS-2472XU-RP. They all have the same issue, after reboot the 1st write will take 4 to 5 minutes even if it is 1KB file then it will come with the message "Do you want to over write the file?" you answer yes then it will copy the file & everything is OK. This 1st time write will happen even if you will write this file after 1 day of 1st reboot. All these NAS's has different Storage Pools configurations from RAID 6 to RAID 10 ... etc hence it is not RAID nor Drive related!! Any ideas!!! . Thanks a gain
We did not see that on this one. It just took several minutes to boot and be ready. Just wondering, is that with ZFS or not?
14:25 there is a mistake - not 12c/6t but reverse 6c/12t ;)
Ha! The funny thing is that when I review this and hear my own voice I totally miss that. Great catch.
I was going to make a joke about how Intel hasn't figured out how to back port a 6t/12c processor into their 11th gen core processor line....😂
I think a major aspect for these types of devices is to point out the lack of need for a staffed/even just hourly IT person for lets say a small video editing shop, photography studio, etc. Preventing a few hours of billing more than makes up for the cost that so many in the comments are mentioning.
Totally right. Even just the hours designing/ building a DIY solution have to be counted at some point.
@@ServeTheHomeVideoServeTheHome When I spec out a comparative solution IT tech is billed at $CDN100 an hour. the pandemic has forced prices to float since there is not as much work now. There are a lot fewer skilled IT people around and they are older too. the pipeline just like in construction is drying up. When the old stones retire there is not a journeyman or apprentice to take their place.
As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, you can get some interesting problems with updates to the OS. Worth having ssh enabled and worth have a reasonable amount of IT knowledge available somehow. It’s not set and forget - CVE patches happen often enough and I wouldn’t let this auto update - however it is likely more user friendly than Truenas.
What are your thoughts on Seagate EXOS X16 vs WD Ultrastar HC530 both in 14TB?
ETA: Also what abought the Toshiba MG series of drives as they have the same specs as the Seagate and WD plus the same warranty?
I've got a mix of WD Gold (the older good ones), HGST Ultrastar, and WD Ultrastar drives on my main NAS currently but with prices of SSD's/HDD's going up thanks to crypto mining I'm thinking of grabbing an EXOS as it's $290 vs $450 for the Ultrastar.
They both appear to be made in Thailand and have the same warranty and overall specs. I've just never been a Seagate guy but I did have a Barracuda 1.5TB drive on my work PC that was at 68K hours when I retired the machine and it had no issues (reallocated sectors, etc). I just kind of have a bias against them for some reason.
WD has been pulling shady crap though lately (like changing drive specs without notice) so I'm less than thrilled with them. It appears that the only drives they have now with a URE of 10^15 are the Ultrastars as the Red, Red Plus, Red Pro, and Gold are now only 10^14 which I don't trust for parity based RAID on drives larger than 4-6TB.
I have 4x8TB HGST Ultrastar HE8 drives that have almost 40K hours on them currently so their time is coming to be replaced.
14:27 ah yes 6threads, 12 cores. Is this SMT0.5?
Yea pinned a comment on that already. I messed that one up and it is the kind of thing that when you hear yourself speak something you do not think about.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo yeah, i just had a good laugh given a story i had a few weeks ago:
We used a Server with 2 Epyc 7252 eight core CPUs but because of a system bug, the server would crash, if we run it with more than 8 active threads, so we really had a 16 core, 8 thread Situation 😅
@@p3chv0gel22 Well aren't you a 'pechvogel' ;)
@@h3artbl33d yes
sounds like the specs of the Intel 12 gen :P lol
Surprised that TB3 connectivity only links up at 10gig, shouldn't it be able to do 40gig? (raw, before overhead, of course). Glad to see ZFS in here, wonder how low-level QNAP lets you go for checking ZFS centric stuff, and if they use openZFS (so the pool(s) can be "portable").
The main thing keeping me buying these units vs building my own is the case / size of the units… I struggle to find a case that had 8+ 3.5 inch external hot swap bays at that size with a itx motherboard that has the features we need…
If you were okay with a large case, how would you get a similar build done? Specs, software, RAID config, etc?
@@AshwinSundar I would prolly use a SilverStone Technology RM41-H08 with the additional 5 bays (for a total of 10 3.5" bays" with Raid 6) If I was going that big I could just get a good SAS HC and a 10GB Card.. and I'd throw in a 1070gtx I have layin around for transcoding. Of course my druthers is to have a smaller case where having all that "built-in" to the motherboard would be better. Not gonna get the 1070.. so would have to settle for built in intel gfx which is fine... its finding a goodf itx mb with 10gb and enough sata ports. I realize I might be looking for a Unicorn at this point. It's fun to shop tho
SFP+ is more flexible!
Flexible huh? Can you wire your home with DACs? Nope. Not Like CAT6a.... How about those expensive transceivers? 10GBase-T is a better choice for a home 10gig network
@@post-leftluddite seriously no.
The transceivers go for like 10€ a piece.
The cables are way easyer to lay, they are even way cheaper. The only thing you will need is a guy to splice them to a patchbox but that's about it....
;)
While you can do all of the work on cat7 (cat6a is not realy recommended for 10gig...) those cables are expensive and hard to lay down... Alsow mess up the connector somewhere and you can end up with ab bad connection way harder to spot then it is with some om3/4...
Alsow you could just buy a Cooper card if you desire. Or an optic to Cooper transceiver for the adapter, most are Intel or mellanox anyway... Easy to get transceivers for them.
@@post-leftludditeLuddite I set up a 10G SFP+ backbone between two MikroTik switches and the NAS units are on one end and the workstations are on the other. If I move the NAS to their own switch I can create a 10G SAN.
@@justacomment1657 cat6a not really recommended for 10gbit? How far is each cable run you’re thinking of?
@@pantoqwerty while the 100m are theoretical possible. It is quite easily possible to fuck up during patching and crimping and never se 10gbit on those cables.... Best thing is... You will only notice after some device tries to....
From experience I do know that it is enough to have a heavy electro radiation close to a cat 6 patch field that those clients did not even reach 100mbit...granted the guys laying those cables fucked up hard but such a fuckup is not possible on Fibre cables as they are not influenced by other electronics running close to them.. If you dont have a link on om4, you have no link. But if If you damage copper wiring (or the radiation protection) you will have connection and you will even manage high speeds until suddenly someone decides to install a switch next to your patch box and things suddenly go south verry very far...
Any chance you'll review a dual controller NAS from the qnap enterprise line at some point?
Perhaps. We did the 3U dual NAS a few months ago.
I totally agree on the time saving pre-built setup. But come on, $2.5k that's pretty steep for a 6 core 12 thread...
Went to a used server website configured and order a 14 bays Dell R730XD with the same rough specs... costs around half of it. In fact I chose the Xeon 2650L v3 1.8ghz for a total of 24 cores and 48 threads for a little more $. They all comes with dual SFP+ daughter boards for just 70 bucks or extra 4 port eth card for a few extra bucks..
The package came prebuilt... I mean you still need to put the drives in but that's pretty much it. The only extra step was that I needed to create a usb drive for the OS.
So in my opinion companies like synology and qnap, half their value is on their software which is pretty intuitive... but I can say the same for the latest freenas or unraid. And the hardware prebuilt... well, if you go for the used server route I don't see it is an issue at all.
So in my opinion.. if this thing costs like $1k to $1.3k I might consider it....
The other thing is the power consumption and noise, I realize that the old servers are noisy, but there are commands to lower the fan speed and the power consumption... if you go with the low clock speed cpu it actually don't vary much, as matter fact you can use only 1 CPU in a dual cpu config to further lower the power consumption. Also I think the number of drives play a huge role. If you do unraid only one drive spins, if you do zfs depends on your pool you might need to spun a couple more drives to get the data. There is always pros and cons but then again saving $1.5k even it consumes a little bit more power the difference of $ in annual electric bill... how much you will be paying 50 100 150 more? the $1.5k you save can powered it for a decade.
At any rate, it's a good NAS... just not good enough to justify the $2.5k in my opinion.
Its abut $500 over what it should be. Your are getting a OS with apps that are ready to manage the hardware far easier than a Custom system.
This is the best desk nas for plex so far, but do you think the new TVS-H674-I5-32G have better specs than this guy and also able to play all the H265 4k and other high end videos? What do you think about, I just pre-ordered the Qnap Tvs-h674-i5-32g-us thinking have better specs than this one, the only thing make me doubt is when I compare prices
What would be nice is if they gave you the option to install something like ESXi on it. Would even be willing to pay a fee or something.
I heard so many issues with qnap I considering the qnap but I’M hearing so many bad things disconnected alot hardware and software issuess I dont know which direction synology with there locked hardrives? so I'm not what diection to go with
why is the 2,5Gbps benchmarks faster than the 10GbE performance on the video copy graphs??
17:25 you forgot reason #3: Long term support. My 2 2010 era QNAP NASes only just stopped receiving firmware updates after more than ten years.
Does this NAS run QTS if you choose rather than QuTS Hero?
I'm thinking use SFP+ for the 10Gb connectivity would have made sense given they already have 4x2.5Gbe ports.
I somewhat think that too, but I am sure if that was done someone would say "why do they mix 2.5GbE and SFP+?" and be unhappy about that. At some point, one just has to make a decision and go with it I think. I also think it would be easy to swap for SFP+ in this design.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo I have no doubt that someone would complain regardless as people are fickle that way.
As long as they make SFP+ and option I'm fine with what they chose.
I'm still pissed at Netgear for them saying the RN516 would have a 10Gb card released for it and then they never lived up to that promise. The slot sits so far back into the chassis that I haven't found a card that will work for it (ie reach the back of hte case) and I really, really want 10Gb on mine. Any ideas on that?
can you deploy docker images here?
Ha, just ordered one :-)
hmmm totally excited about the toolless- toolless is crap if you depend on that device, but here i am with a now 5+ year old ts-453a that also has that screen, and it wasnt new 2016 either
@ServeTheHome Unless I'm mistaken, Exos drives are not CMR drives, but they can be used with ZFS? Thinking of the CMR/SMR situation that made the news not too long ago.
They are CMR as far as I know. All Exos X drives are CMR
I just learned about the ransom ware attack on this device that came out right around the time this review was released. In short, my concerns about these devices, that they are not a good fit for most businesses and homes was correct. I am biased, I will admit. I want all businesses to hire IT professionals (either internally, or by contract). A device that is easy to use, but insecure is useless.
My issue, specifically, with QNAP is that this is ADVERTISED as being protection against ransomware because it uses snapshots. When hackers gain shell access, it's a single command to delete all the snapshots. The only proof against ransom ware is offline backups, ideally to tape.
Another great use case for this NAS. Use a thunderbolt to pcie riser or the internal slot to put a SAS hba for an external tape drive. Done. Assuming of course that you have money left over from the super NAS.
It's an old video, but there's some things to add to this in retrospect.
Keep in mind that QNAP's software and cloud offerings have been a security nightmare. Many people have been hit by ransomware by using many of the built-in features. If security is important, you'll either have this completely isolated from the internet, or you'll manage internet exposure yourself with hardened container images and VMs, which drastically reduces the value of an offering like this. Synology does have more reliable software, but they struggle with similar issues, too, even if it's to a lesser degree.
Some of QNAP's additional storage software features come from extending things like LVM without providing the source code. They're also frequently behind on providing kernel source for developers. This limits your ability to extend the base OS, and, if your NAS fails and you're using some storage features, you can't pull up the drive array on a regular Linux server. You're locked in to QNAP if you want to access your data.
The QNAP desktop NASes have a great form factor and design. But it does come at a premium in up-front cost. Furthermore, there have been a few major hardware failure with CPU/motherboard issues that have caused almost guaranteed failures at the 3-year mark - right when the warranty expires. Sometimes even on the replaced units. QNAP has been very inconsistent about how it handles those warranties on affected hardware and kind of dishonest about the issue. You're also going to have to send the full unit in for service instead of having them send parts.
A basic linux server with SMB, Cockpit, Docker, and a portainer/yacht container for GUI management will handle most prosumer/SMB needs. TrueNAS Core will get you most of the way there. Until QNAP starts providing better recovery tools and properly owns up to their hardware bugs, users really shouldn't be putting serious money into their higher-end units.
I can't believe that you can use the QNAP as your own 10GbE Adapter. That's ludicrous. 13:00
Or a SAS hba for tape backups.
Unless you are running virtual machines I can hardly see how to use these 16GB of memory. For example I’m going to set up Surveillance system with about 8 cameras (some are 4k), Plex media server for 3-4 TVs (unlikely there will be many other clients such as mobile or PC), backup system for 3-4 computers and network shared storage. How much RAM do I really need? Do I need anything higher than 16GB? I doubt.
We have one of these and you wouldn't believe the performance we get from it.
i would like to see dual power supplies but other then that very cool
We discussed that internally as well. My sense on why this is not built with dual is because they are mostly deployed in areas on a single circuit delivering power anyway.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo thats true but in my years of running servers other then hhd failures most common, failure of a power supply are next most common so even if on same power supply nice thing to have
Great review of the "NAS" unit.
I have three QNAP "NAS" units as well, and I completely and totally agree with you that I am DEFINITELY using the QNAP "NAS" units for more than just "dummy" "NAS" tasks.
On one of them, I actually run a local Ubuntu repository and also a Yum repository as well so that I can update my Linux systems over the local network and then on the other, it also serves as a PXE boot server where I am using an Ubuntu LXC container for that.
But I also agree, QNAP isn't cheap.
As you mentioned, if you are that "college" kid where you don't have a lot of money and therefore; you need to build a DIY storage solution, you can certainly do that (and deal with all of the wonderful and spectacular ways that ZFS can fail on you, manually) vs. having a system like this which can help guide you through the repair and data recovery process.
And yes, the startup, reboot, and shutdown times is a tad ridiculous, but par for the course.
There's a time typo in the timestamps in the description
Price should be 26min not 16min
Fixed thanks!
What's the best nas software in your opinion
I usually bifurcate the market into QNAP/ Synology that have easy to use and many features. Then TrueNAS/ UnRAID which are more DIY market. Finally, the more hardcore DIY solutions which I actually like. I have been working on getting to more clustered NAS solutions rather than single NAS solutions as our storage needs have grown.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo which are those hardcore diy solutions I might look into those since neither truenas nor unraid really do it for me
31:47 "...a six thread, twelve core processor.." interesting! :)
Qnap has always had better hardware than Synology - now with ZFS they have way better software too!
I used to build everything myself. Then i got old and tired and i just want stuff that works and takes zero of my time to get it there. 😜
Yes :-)
14:26 6 thread 12 core. :) I pay attention to the video content.
:-) Yea I pinned a comment on that earlier. I cannot even hear myself say it when I review.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo Funny mixup in regard to Intel :)
Patrick, I thought you said $2100 for this. That's without drives I assume. So it gets quite expensive quite quick don't you think ? Question is if Cloud is not an option for this type of systems and pricing. Or what are the use cases for this unit ? But what I would really like to know is how higher end storage systems connect NVME drives ? I'm talking 24+ drives. All I hear is fluff like this many millions IOPs and this many 100gig cards but how is the actual drive connected to the rest of the system ? There has to be a controller of some sort. Also RAID must be running in software somehow. Well maybe this is not the video to ask this question but I would really like to know why I'm paying soooo much for Netapp.
@asdrubale bisanzio Good info. However NVME has to have some electrical connection to mobo. NVME is just a protocol like any other. So how it gets from drive to NIC ? And why some systems claim millions of IOPs while others do not. To me it's like 10 gig Intel vs Broadcom connection. I hope it makes sense.
@asdrubale bisanzio There are small versions is this in 4 and six-bay systems as well.
I’m way behind the times… I have a brand new one that I have not had time to use. Upgraded RAM. I need to play with it.
Great review but I will stick to a normal server build for serving files. I have a hard time paying $2700.00 plus dollars for an appliance like this.
Totally understand. On the flip side, I think there are a lot of people that do not want to go through that hassle of DIY. I get both sides of this.
I heard you can do this Synology.
I thought it said cheap not qnap . So I ask what is a cheap nas for sth
2x118GB optane
What i'm waiting for os for someone to open up and mass produce optane dimms, i'd love to have my 4650G driven by 2x32GB ECC and 2x118GB optane memory. The IOPs of that 3DXpoint is WAY higher than my sas controller can supply, and faster than the network cards can request
Where did you get 4650G ? Lucky ...
@@dupajasio4801Both off of ebay
All this good stuff packed up in a that box, but no dual PSU ?? so disapointed...
I hate SFP+... You can't wire your home with DACs and fiber is nowhere near as easy as CAT6a to run through your walls, not to mention 100% compatibility with all your legacy 1Gig devices without having to buy a million expensive transceivers.... For your average home network, 10GBase-T is the way to go
Not to sound too much like a mother on Maury Povitch hoping for a DNA match on a 14th baby -daddy suspect, "I am in 500% agreement!"
The decision to add 10Gbe using 10BaseT over SFP+ makes no sense. Look at QNAP's 10Gbe switch offerings and you can see how they favor SFP+. Since this 10Gbe support is offered through an add-in card, the option for either SFP+ or 10BaseT should be available when purchasing this device. Typically, a NAS server like this will be located in a server room, not on the desktop. That means a shorter run and cable will be required, while desktops typically will be located elsewhere requiring longer runs with existing cabling. Also, there is the need for various 10BaseT speeds depending on the computer connected. So for servers, SFP+ makes more sense and for desktops, 10BaseT is the preferred connection.
I wish Synology was this feature-packed. I'll just buy QNAP instead.
Boot times sucks on all Qnap units since forever - they didnt bother to speed this up even on super fast units.
Missed a port on the back! Looks like a serial port over 3.5mm jack or possibly VGA? Bit hard to see. For shame Patrick! For shame! 😋
This was around an hour long before a lot got cut out. That jack I believe is designed mostly for debug rather than for normal usage so that is why the short segment on it was cut.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo Hahaha... I'm just pulling your leg, as I assumed it wasn't user-serviceable. But it still makes me smile to know it was recorded, but just didn't make the cut.
Your attention to detail is admirable and one of the reasons I enjoy STH's content. Excellent review, as always. 👍
Waiting on a consumer level NAS with nothing but M.2 in it, like the Supermicro All-Flash NVME servers
That is basically what the TR Pro machine I built is like.
I just want high capacity SSDs at a decent price. M.2 would certainly keep form factor down.
See if you can find the QNAP TBS-453DX still, it's EOL now though.
Gotta be honest, I fail to see a place for this in any home lab, and most businesses. TrueNAS is easy to setup, and you know that you will get software support for years. Others may be more interested in running Windows or Linux on there storage server, both fine options. Why would I pay thousands of dollars for a server with an odd form factor and proprietary software, when the same performance and ease of use is available with commodity items. What am I missing? Why would I want the "total qnap experience" when the total TrueNas experience is the same, and the total Ubuntu or Windows experience is also quiet good, and far more likely to exist in five years?
It somewhat depends. QNAP's interface is still much easier for non-technical users than TrueNAS. I use both, but there is a huge gap. TrueNAS assumes you want to learn about storage. QNAP it almost feels like it assumes you just picked up a computer yesterday.
On the hardware, the TrueNAS Mini XL+ is less, but also one gets lower-end hardware. Even simple bits like the ability to use Thunderbolt 3 for the direct connections, 2.5GbE, or USB 3.2 Gen2 are not available because the X+ and XL+ are 2017 era platforms (although still current generation to be clear.) ZFS is fairly standard and QNAP has been around for a long time. That is one of the big innovations with QuTS Hero is that they are now using ZFS. Perhaps you are thinking about Synology SHR as proprietary software? QuTS also has proprietary software in addition to 3rd party apps and the ability to run apps and containers, but that is more of an addition rather than excluding what you would use on TrueNAS.
If you use both side-by-side, the difference is immediately clear. They are intended for different audiences.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo great reply, and it really made me realize my own biases (I retired as a network consultant a decade ago).
@@edwardallenthree We have a writer who is retired and lives as an ex-pat on a tropical beach. I often find myself jealous of being able to say the same about myself.
You can have a home lab but want to focus on things other than the storage. QNAPs are certified for use with VMWare and others may wish to focus on virtualisation, clustering, containerisation, and other home lab aspects and just let storage tick away in the background. QNAP aren’t going anywhere. When I bought mine in 2008 the offerings were physically more robust but less capable. They’ve come a long way, just need to keep on top of the software QC.
I bet the box would be just fine with a 40/50Gbps card in it. It might not hit 4.8+GBps, but likely sufficiently higher than 25Gbps to make it worthwhile, assuming you make use of NVMe and typically read giant files on a regular basis. The four 2.5 inch bays feel a little dated. I suppose if you're plugging in SSDs on a regular basis they make sense, but otherwise why not use the pair of NVMe drives? I'd rather have four NVMe, truth be told. Makes the unit smaller as well :shrug:
disclaimer: I have a qnap unit, so I guess I'm not unbiased.
I think it is more of using SATA 2.5" AND 2x M.2 in this system. I was thinking about trying a NVIDIA BlueField-2 DPU in here but have to prioritize what we work on.
That sounds like fun, although admittedly I probably don't have a good use case for that. Yet..... [that's your opening to suggest one :>]
Thunderbolt 3? An instant IP-SAN system via iSCSI.
Thunderbolt sounds great until you realize that the longest cable that you can buy is 2m long and it's impractical for a team in production.
I think I recall Linus feeding Thunderbolt or DisplayPort over fibre for 10m.
All QNAP NAS boot very slowly. 5 minutes boot time is nothing, and with my encrypted filesystem, to unlock it, it takes 15-20 minutes.
I like the product but realistically to get this thing off the ground you're looking at about four grand that includes hard drives I just don't have that type of cash laying around
Six thread twelve core.
14:25 6 core 12 thread*
:P
What is the point of having 4 SATA SSDs instead of 6 M.2?
I think they would need more PCIe lanes for that to be practical. 1 x8 for the NIC, 2x x4 for TB, 2x x4 for the M.2 already there. That is 24 lanes already plus the bandwidth for SATA drives.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo Thanks - that makes sense! I forget these nice things take up their own lanes
I'd be extremely interested in this nas if the 4 2.5inch bays were u.3 instead of sata
I'm also really really looking for U.3 solutions for a nas, or home server components.
So it's QNAP's answer to the Jellyfish server? 2.5K sounds like a lot of money but by the time you've added up all the bits and bobs you must be well over £1.5k in hardware costs and, as you say, how much is your time worth? I don't suppose you have 8 of those 50 TB 3.5" SSDs to try in it?
The customisation is a pro and a con. As a pro you get a reasonable looking unit packed with features, hot swap etc. As a con, guess where you’re going if it breaks? No “just replace the MB” for you. More limited update lifespan also. I have an i5 quad core 64GB RAM unit but cannot run the QuTS Hero OS despite the hardware easily being capable. Updates for QTS still come through but I’d prefer to be able to use ZFS.
This is a very nice NAS, but the price... OMG, 3.5k€ it's a lot of money and there are many options for that amount.
have been eyballing the 1688x for few months now....
This review made me eyeball the h1688x too.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo well, i don't need the 4 additional bays but I already got an ARM-powered QNAP as backup storage that uses the same-style chassis as the 1688x. It would just look better in the shelf :-).
@@BaMb1N079 I have a 332X and am considering the 352 as a step up but a 4 or six-bay version of this might be a nice option for a hot replica
@@patrickwingert2018 there are smaller ZFS NAS by qnap (i.e. TS-h686) but without the fancy Xeon that has the Intel graphics in there. Why that particular Xeon is so nice is because you can use the integrated GPU part for on-the-fly 4K transcoding. With plex media server for example. and that's performance all ARM powered models lack, even the AMD ones. Although with those you might be able to sneak a small and cheap Quadro in there to do the job.
To anyone I'am thinking of buying a nas system to make things easier I stream movies and tv shows I have need something powerfull enough to run 2 4k movies at the sametime I have pc with planty of power with debian but its a pain to setup what should I do? can someone give their thoughts. Thanks
A 2.5GbE NAS is more than enough.
I stream 4K movies (60-70GB per movie) from my Plex server with 1Gbps connectivity.
25Gbps or even 10Gbps is absolutely not required for media hoarding/streaming.
@@AshwinSundar Which nas do you have
@@michaelcarraghan512 I don't have a NAS. Just a few hard drives in my 7 yo PC with 1Gbps port. The network has a 1Gbps switch and it's connected to my Shield TV Pro's 1Gbps port (do note that most media players don't have 10Gbps support)
I have an ATMOS home theatre so I stream a lot of huge 4K ATMOS files typically 60GB+ (that are stored in my hard drive) without any issues. So 1Gbps is good enough to stream a single huge 4K file. 2.5 must be enough to stream 2 at a time.
@@AshwinSundar Most have a 10gb card you could add. I thinking about synology DS1621+ or qnap TS-653D seems like qnap has more issues. I'am undecided
@@michaelcarraghan512 You could add a 10GbE card to the NAS, what I meant was the media player (Shield TV Pro, Fire TV Stick 4K, etc) would still be a bottleneck since they accept only 1Gbps. The best we could do is get a USB 3.1 to 5GbE RJ45 adapter and have the media player accept upto 5Gbps
I'd suggest getting a 2.5GbE NAS. That'll be more than enough (for streaming media to 2 devices at once)
this is a nice system but the price is just absolutely bonkers, if they would sell these systems much closer to what these systems much closer to what they are actually worth they could sell well but this is a level where even the people that have the money will think twice.
Who is the customer they want to target with this?
Someone who needs powerful storage but doesn’t want to run server racks. Patrick mentioned video editors. I think small content creation businesses seem a likely candidate.
19:19 'praw-cess-SEEZ' I blame Russinovich for the current fad trend in making the plural form of the simple word 'process' attempt to sound like it's somehow a bit more elegant.....! :)
EDIT: If there were a bunch of folks hiring on/starting at a location, and they were in-processing, I would refer to people in that stage as 'praw-cess-SEEZ'! :)
good but thing. it is a consumer or enterprise option.
Simple .. map the array .. windows backup .. done.
Your videos are great, but could you somehow compact the length? :) It is horribly looong.
if only it had Synology ui
what's the deal with all the 2.5g ethernet stuff i've been seening recently and why is it not just all standard 10g? why do we need this in-between standard!?
10Gbase-T does not reach as far. 2.5GbE is the lower power standard with longer reach for more existing wiring.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo that’s reasonable but my integrated 10g base t integrated NIC falls back to 2.5G or 1g as part of auto negotiation and can’t cost that much more.
I can think of two reasons for 2.5 or 5 - range and heat. Also switch gear would be cheaper than for 10
You seem to discount TrueNAS entirely. Are their pre-built systems that bad?
He's done a review of at least one of their systems and was very positive about it. I think his point is more, "if you want something turn-key and productized because you don't want DIY, then both Synology and Qnap are *more* turn-key than IXSystems' pre-built offerings".
TrueNAS is great and even as someone who knows far too much about ZFS and is comfortable with the CLI, I generally prefer a nice Web GUI for day-to-day monitoring/management. But TrueNAS can be tricky if you're not already at least somewhat familiar with ZFS or more enterprise-oriented storage solutions. Sure it's fairly easy to create a zpool and a network share, but if you want to start customizing/adjusting pretty much anything, you need to know what you're doing.
As an example, I have a coworker who's doing grad work in ML. He's an engineer and a smart one at that, but he just needs a NAS to store large ML training datasets and he's not a storage/enterprise hardware nerd. Something like this Qnap box is probably a better fit for him than an Ixsystems pre-built.
Clark, there is a fairly recent TrueNAS Mini X+ review out there (I think I did a video for that one as well.) The pre-built is not bad at all. But it is a different type of experience. TrueNAS Mini X+ is for someone that wants to know about storage. This QNAP has a much easier interface for even those who do not care to learn about storage. This also is a much higher machine than the Mini XL+ even with 2x M.2, Thunderbolt, and the Xeon W-1250. They are different classes of machines for different markets even if both can be labeled as SMB ZFS NAS solutions.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo Thanks for the reply,
The biggest reason I was build my own is to have better hardware. This system seems to be about what I would build myself given the resources.
One feature I am looking for is the ability to create and manage users as the admin, but also allow the user to set their own password. I was surprised to find that this is not a standard feature.
I'm actually considering buying one and slapping it over the heads of the entire Synology crew. Why does QNAP have the best hardware combined with the worst software and Synology is the other way around? Can't they get themselves a room and produce something decent? 🙈
If you think QNAP has the best software then you haven’t had one of their units for long. QTS 4.3.n was generally pretty good with few issues. 4.4.n was a disaster I couldn’t wait to see the back of. It didn’t even work properly with one of their own network expansion cards. At first it just wouldn’t work, then it worked with constant issues. Caused lockups and reboots. My feeling was it was in the memory handling of the firmware driver. 4.5 is great thus far. QNAP support are quick to make everything a user issue but fortunately I work in IT and persisted. In the end their fixes were so poor and the constant denials so frustrating that I ripped the card out and the system stabilised. The card was fine running under a live boot Linux so no hardware fault. It worked on 4.3 but failed on 4.4 and they kept claiming it was a RAM issue. Nauseating, so buyer beware.
The hardware is solid though. My old TS-439 Pro from ~2008 is still going strong running Debian + OMV as a backup server.
@@pantoqwerty Yeah, that was obviously a typo on my side, now edited for clarity. I wholeheartedly agree with your statement.