The word "mass" or "messe" was used by Luther, and Bach composed both Catholic and Evangelical masses, so it is perfectly Lutheran as well. My warmest regards in Christ from a Catholic friend and brother in Christ.
@karpov89 Thank you for your kind response. The Annunciation is much more appropriately celebrated on a Sunday since it is the Feast of the Incarnation, thanks to the power of the Holy Spirit. I hope to see the "Annunciation" celebrated before Christmas along with the Visitation, and the Holy Name of Jesus on January 1st with the following Sundays commemorating the Purification, the Adoration of the Magi, the Finding in the Temple, and the Baptism of Jesus. God bless you.
If you see to the Kyrie, Gloria et laudamus, Sanctus and Agnus Dei in the Hymnal book, most are medieval, some 16th/17th century and a few from 20th century, but in older style...but there is also a possibility to use som modern style alternatives but that would be more exceptions than the main rule as in the Missouri synod.
Yes it is, very similar to the Novus Ordo mass. The normal Sunday service is called "högmässa" "High mass". But maybe not for Lutherans in all countries, they may call it something else, partly because mass sounds catholic.
The Archbishop Laurentius Petri of the 16th century said that nor have we abolished the mass, nor the liturgical vestments...only thing that during a period (most of 19th century) when holy communion was scarcely celebrated the service was called high mass regardless of it was a communion service or not. So is not today (it would have been called High mass service but should be avoided). The high mass is the normal Sunday service, Liturgy of the Word is called Sunday service
ln the Roman Rite, Michaelmas is September 29, so I wonder if this October 3 celebration was on a Sunday, or is it the date used in the Swedish Church? Thank you for posting, by the way.
@epituchano Hi! Unfortunately I have not seen the whole film, Nattvardsgästerna. But in the early 1960ths it was the Book of common worship of 1942 (we now have 1986). I am not sure if the film shows authentic liturgy, or if it is simplified (problably). The chasuble, cope and other liturgical vestments were never abolished. However, in the dark ages of Liturgy, 19th century, the chasuble were mostly used at solemn occassions, which gradually changed during the 20th century.
@epituchano I think the chasuble, alb and stole were common 50 years ago, but maybe less in rural churches with old, non high church, priests. I think maybe a couple of tiny congregations of orthodox Lutherans outside the Church of Sweden may use the order of 1942 or similar. There are good opportunities to celebrate the Latin mass on regular basis in Sweden in some places, most frequent in Göteborg. The Catholic bishop of Sweden is positive to the Latin mass.
@epituchano A few years ago I was attending a Catholic baptismal mass outside Borås in Sweden and the preacher of the Papal Houshold P Rainero Cantalamessa OFMCap was attending..then also the whole Liturgy of the Eucharist was in Latin.
I think it is influence by European Lutheranism in the 19th century, when the liturgy was at a low mark, that is why the mass is not celebrated, liturgical vestments like the chasuble are not compulsary etc. But maybe in recent year things are happening..but the main problem with the Missouri synod is that it is not episcopal. There can be no Lutheran church without the historic episcopate. The have to go to the Anglican church of North America and beg them to reinstitute the episcopate.
@FRAGIORGIO1 Yes, according to my Catholic calender it is on the 29th of September, a Thursday the year 2011. But in the Church of Sweden it is celebrated on the Sunday. It is the same also for the celebration of Feast of the Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin and maybe a few other.
@epituchano I have seen the film now, I think it is a much better psychological drama then presentation of the liturgy. However then the priest were using the Missale of 1942 and now they use the Missale of 1986, which is indeed close to the Catholic Novus Ordo mass.
@epituchano Maybe it is very rare to celebrate the whole liturgy in Latin, but at least in Sweden it is not uncommon to have the Kyrie, Gloria et laudamus, (Credo), Sanctus and Agnus Dei in Latin, also to sing hymns in Latin.
@epituchano Well I have seen many of Bergman's, including Den goda viljan, about his father, the priest. I am not sure about the liturgy, they do not show the complete eucharistic prayer? But I think I have to see it myself..well about the Latin mass it is popular among converts, Swedish people (most of the Catholics are foreign of origin).
@epituchano We may have lost some things, but we have gained others from the long traditions and practices of the Church, which did not Begin in 1570, that is, 1,540 years after Jesus. It is not only patristic oriigins, what of the Jewish origins, and early and later Middle Ages? Also, there are some other Latin rites and uses, such as the Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Dominicans, as well as other historic, no longer used practices such as the Sarum use of the Roman Rite in England..
Quite appart from the liturgical renewal of modern times, the Lutheran Churches have always been liturgical, almost without exception. While the academic gown is common in Italy and in some places, alb, cincture, stole, and maniple have never been uncommon, nor have cassock and stole/tippet and hood. Singing of the liturgy traces itself back to J.S. Bach and beyond. Lutherans may just be The most liturgical church in the west today--at any rate it is not new at all.
@nelsonvandyk Well what you say is not the position of the Catholic church. About versus populum and ad orientem the Lutheran mass were always celebrated ad orientem before and nowadays sometimes, it is usually depends on how the church is built.
Now Lutherans especially from th us are proud to see that their faith is not destroyed and modern such as American Lutheran churches and we catholic cry because we could rejoice God in our beautiful and TRADITIONAL churches that WE built and we now have novus ordo carbage and charismatic sharing of the Eucharist disgusting thinks but we could celebrate the liturgy of the hours and The Holy Mass in beautiful TRADITIONAL Churches
Maybe the problem is that there are women clergy in all American Anglican churches..but if there are bishops consecrated by male bishops there should be no problem...and anyway, why being so negative towards the woman clergy if it is not so they have a catholic perspective on the priesthood: that the sacrament is invalid if there is not a priest in apostolic succession...holding a sermon is not a sacrament and that is something catholic nuns can to, although they do not do it in the Holy mass.
Well I am sure that women clergy can do that per se. Anyway I do not see any hindrance against women perpetual deacons, also in the Catholic church. But that has to take time, it can't and shouldn't be forced.
The word "mass" or "messe" was used by Luther, and Bach composed both Catholic and Evangelical masses, so it is perfectly Lutheran as well. My warmest regards in Christ from a Catholic friend and brother in Christ.
I'm Catholic too but I think that we can't say brother in Christ since this Church is Heretic
Lord, Jesus Christ, We Humbly Pray follows the same tune and is used during Holy Communion as well
This is gorgeous!!!!!!
@karpov89 Thank you for your kind response. The Annunciation is much more appropriately celebrated on a Sunday since it is the Feast of the Incarnation, thanks to the power of the Holy Spirit. I hope to see the "Annunciation" celebrated before Christmas along with the Visitation, and the Holy Name of Jesus on January 1st with the following Sundays commemorating the Purification, the Adoration of the Magi, the Finding in the Temple, and the Baptism of Jesus. God bless you.
If you see to the Kyrie, Gloria et laudamus, Sanctus and Agnus Dei in the Hymnal book, most are medieval, some 16th/17th century and a few from 20th century, but in older style...but there is also a possibility to use som modern style alternatives but that would be more exceptions than the main rule as in the Missouri synod.
A very joyous Easter to all Christian friends, brothers, and sisters.
Yes it is, very similar to the Novus Ordo mass. The normal Sunday service is called "högmässa" "High mass". But maybe not for Lutherans in all countries, they may call it something else, partly because mass sounds catholic.
That insanely majestic high altar in the background and he's using a tiny wooden table ahahaha wtf
The Archbishop Laurentius Petri of the 16th century said that nor have we abolished the mass, nor the liturgical vestments...only thing that during a period (most of 19th century) when holy communion was scarcely celebrated the service was called high mass regardless of it was a communion service or not. So is not today (it would have been called High mass service but should be avoided). The high mass is the normal Sunday service, Liturgy of the Word is called Sunday service
ln the Roman Rite, Michaelmas is September 29, so I wonder if this October 3 celebration was on a Sunday, or is it the date used in the Swedish Church? Thank you for posting, by the way.
@epituchano Hi! Unfortunately I have not seen the whole film, Nattvardsgästerna. But in the early 1960ths it was the Book of common worship of 1942 (we now have 1986). I am not sure if the film shows authentic liturgy, or if it is simplified (problably). The chasuble, cope and other liturgical vestments were never abolished. However, in the dark ages of Liturgy, 19th century, the chasuble were mostly used at solemn occassions, which gradually changed during the 20th century.
@epituchano I think the chasuble, alb and stole were common 50 years ago, but maybe less in rural churches with old, non high church, priests.
I think maybe a couple of tiny congregations of orthodox Lutherans outside the Church of Sweden may use the order of 1942 or similar.
There are good opportunities to celebrate the Latin mass on regular basis in Sweden in some places, most frequent in Göteborg. The Catholic bishop of Sweden is positive to the Latin mass.
It is interesting to note that the last name "Cantalamessa" means "Singthemass" in Italian!
I don't know if there is the same in English....music by Gochsheim in 1628.
@epituchano The Roman Rite mass is officially in Latin as per 1970. Bishops' conferences are authorized to have mass in the language of the people
@epituchano A few years ago I was attending a Catholic baptismal mass outside Borås in Sweden and the preacher of the Papal Houshold P Rainero Cantalamessa OFMCap was attending..then also the whole Liturgy of the Eucharist was in Latin.
Well the liturgical music is basically the same since before the Reformation in the Church of Sweden so there is a continuity.
I think it is influence by European Lutheranism in the 19th century, when the liturgy was at a low mark, that is why the mass is not celebrated, liturgical vestments like the chasuble are not compulsary etc. But maybe in recent year things are happening..but the main problem with the Missouri synod is that it is not episcopal. There can be no Lutheran church without the historic episcopate. The have to go to the Anglican church of North America and beg them to reinstitute the episcopate.
@FRAGIORGIO1 Yes, according to my Catholic calender it is on the 29th of September, a Thursday the year 2011. But in the Church of Sweden it is celebrated on the Sunday. It is the same also for the celebration of Feast of the Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin and maybe a few other.
@epituchano I have seen the film now, I think it is a much better psychological drama then presentation of the liturgy. However then the priest were using the Missale of 1942 and now they use the Missale of 1986, which is indeed close to the Catholic Novus Ordo mass.
Can i ask about priesthood.. i know theirs no mass or priest in lutheran church but i see the man have priest cloth and having a mass. Am i wrong?
@epituchano Maybe it is very rare to celebrate the whole liturgy in Latin, but at least in Sweden it is not uncommon to have the Kyrie, Gloria et laudamus, (Credo), Sanctus and Agnus Dei in Latin, also to sing hymns in Latin.
@epituchano Well I have seen many of Bergman's, including Den goda viljan, about his father, the priest. I am not sure about the liturgy, they do not show the complete eucharistic prayer? But I think I have to see it myself..well about the Latin mass it is popular among converts, Swedish people (most of the Catholics are foreign of origin).
Как красиво...
@epituchano We may have lost some things, but we have gained others from the long traditions and practices of the Church, which did not Begin in 1570, that is, 1,540 years after Jesus. It is not only patristic oriigins, what of the Jewish origins, and early and later Middle Ages? Also, there are some other Latin rites and uses, such as the Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Dominicans, as well as other historic, no longer used practices such as the Sarum use of the Roman Rite in England..
Quite appart from the liturgical renewal of modern times, the Lutheran Churches have always been liturgical, almost without exception. While the academic gown is common in Italy and in some places, alb, cincture, stole, and maniple have never been uncommon, nor have cassock and stole/tippet and hood. Singing of the liturgy traces itself back to J.S. Bach and beyond. Lutherans may just be The most liturgical church in the west today--at any rate it is not new at all.
is there a lutheran mass?
@nelsonvandyk Well what you say is not the position of the Catholic church. About versus populum and ad orientem the Lutheran mass were always celebrated ad orientem before and nowadays sometimes, it is usually depends on how the church is built.
Yes that is right.
@nelsonvandyk I could not agree more.
Pouca gente na igreja. Estão perdendo a fé. Sinal dos tempos
@epituchano The Novus Ordo incorporated some features of more ancient Roman liturgies. You should study liturgical history and be better informed.
Now Lutherans especially from th us are proud to see that their faith is not destroyed and modern such as American Lutheran churches and we catholic cry because we could rejoice God in our beautiful and TRADITIONAL churches that WE built and we now have novus ordo carbage and charismatic sharing of the Eucharist disgusting thinks but we could celebrate the liturgy of the hours and The Holy Mass in beautiful TRADITIONAL Churches
@epituchano The official liturgical language of Novus Ordo is LATIN. Be better informed!
Maybe the problem is that there are women clergy in all American Anglican churches..but if there are bishops consecrated by male bishops there should be no problem...and anyway, why being so negative towards the woman clergy if it is not so they have a catholic perspective on the priesthood: that the sacrament is invalid if there is not a priest in apostolic succession...holding a sermon is not a sacrament and that is something catholic nuns can to, although they do not do it in the Holy mass.
Well I am sure that women clergy can do that per se. Anyway I do not see any hindrance against women perpetual deacons, also in the Catholic church. But that has to take time, it can't and shouldn't be forced.