1st airline I've ever flew with between London and Berlin in the early 80's, as a kid, travelling alone and always remember how the air hostesses looked after me.
If they still operate the way they used to it would finally go bust either way. Low cost tickets is the way to go now, bad for the aviation anthusiast but that just how the market goes.
I suggest reading a book called "Skygods: The Fall of Pan Am" by Robert Gandt. There was a lot going against the airline as it wasn't allowed to fly domestically and didn't correctly predict the market along with other factors. If it survived, it would be a much smaller airline at best
I read that book. I couldn't put it down. I never realized that Sandy Acker designed the iconic uniform with the Boller hat. If the airline was still in business, the Boeing 757 and Triple 7 would have looked heart-stopping in Pan Am colors. I fault the downfall, or at least the start of it, to Edward Acker's involvement. He did to Pan Am, what Frank Lorenzo did to Eastern.😢
@@aviationlba747 The KGB used Aeroflot and the CIA used Pan Am. Air travel is so nice today. EK, ET, SQ, TG... the WORKS. Back in rhe 70s and 80s these Americans and Europeans lorded it over the third world. I flew Air France from Bangkok in 1983 on a 747 200. During the take off roll, the plane shook like a quake had hit it. The FAs while pretty, were rude, racist and impolite. These Americans and Europeans put run down planes on third world routes. Air Travel is much better today No Asian, ME3 or Ethiopian back then
@@indranilchakrabarty4196 What you are saying is irrelevant. If Pan Am and TWA were still operating today, they would obviously be much improved from what they were 20-30+ years ago.
If Pan Am survived today; it's fleet would be: - 747-8I (might have given a boost to the 747-8 program) - 747-400 (2 or 1 units left, almost all retired) - 787-8/787-9 - 777-200LR and 777-300ER -Airbus A350-900, A350-1000 XWB -Airbus A321 Ceo/ A321LR and XLR -Airbus A340-500 (1 unit)
Yeah just saying despite PANAM's relationship with Boeing getting into Airbus aircraft was an inevitability because especially if you consider the specs of the aircraft they're mostly superior in range and efficiency. So I feel like yes, just like United which was literally founded by William Boeing they would indeed buy some Airbus. While United only uses Airbus for short hall roots, they only have A319-200CEOS and A320-200CEOS. I suspect the only reason why they have these is because of Continental's merger with United they probably wouldn't have the airbusses at all. Maybe I'm wrong though.
if PAN AM was still around it would be a pleasure to witness that 70s glamour and aura that pan am brought to the table it's just unique. that style and top of the line comfort both combined for something extraordinary.
I would hope that Pan Am retained a high level of American style customer service and is admired for it. Something that is lacking today in budget conscious United and American Airlines that are trying to adapt RyanAir style non existent service.
What are you talking about: "It's American roots and relationship to Boeing may have prevented [flying the A380]"? Pan Am flew the A300, was a launch customer for the A310, and had 50 A320s on order when they collapsed. Their relationship with Airbus was strong too.
This is a very thought provoking video for me as I was a frequent passenger on Pan-Am jets in the 60s-70s. My first trip on board the magnificent 747 was on Pan-Am in 1971. That was the day I fell in love with the Jumbo jet! She still my all time favorite today! My proffession took me to places where cost and time constraints made taking Pan-Am back home to Brazil via the USA impractical. PA was me favourite airline back in those days and it's been fascinating to ponder what their fleet would look like today, had they still been around. Great idea for a video, mates! Cheers!
Flew Pan Am in 78 LHR to JFK and again in 79 LHR to L.A. then on to Honolulu, 40 years on I still remember the rude service from the cabin crew. PA lost their way in the 80s and never recovered from Lockerbie. But still an Icon in Aviation history along with many of the big American carriers.
You may recall that PAN AM flew several Airbus aircraft types (A300 & A310) so it is very possible that if the airline had survived they very much could have been the launch customer for the A380 jumbo as well as the A340 and its variations and most assuredly would have been the luanch customer for the 777 & 787 boeing aircraft. Great story and thank you
I believe that Pan Am will exist again. The last livery ( Billboard livery) is just to cool and adaptable to future aircraft. The film ‘2001 space odyssey’ was prophecy for Pan Am, but I believe the future Pan Am livery will be a continuation of the Billboard livery with no changes.
It's a great question, one I've wondered about over the years. Pan Am was hindered by a weak domestic route network that it couldn't afford to expand through acquisition after the failed National merger. Yet throughout the '80s, none of the stronger domestic airlines wanted to buy Pan Am when they could just wait for Pan Am's next round of asset sales. They also couldn't have been the Emirates of North America because the U.S. only allowed international transits without having to submit to the full immigration and customs regimen on a very limited basis before 9/11, and not at all after that. I eventually figured the only hope for a Pan Am today would have been for it to seek out a merger with one big domestic airline such as United or American immediately upon deregulation in 1978. Had Pan Am been the surviving brand, it would have become very similar to today's UA/AA in both onboard experience and fleet: no A380s, but probably 777s.
Before deregulation at the end of the 1970s, Pan Am and TWA had the international routes (Eastern had South American routes and Northwest had Asian routes) and the likes of United, Delta, and American were domestic carriers. United, Delta, and American were better able to leverage their domestic networks and reconfigure to compete in the deregulated era. While their smaller aircraft provided them some advantages to reconfigure and compete, they also had much better leadership too. In the next 15 years, the writing was on the wall as Pan Am, TWA, and Eastern had begun to sell significant portions of themselves (route authorities that were still regulated) in order to survive. United acquired Heathrow and Asia authorities from Pan Am (its Crown Jewels), American acquired Heathrow from TWA and South America from Eastern, and Delta acquired European from Pan Am. Those two airlines couldn’t survive by selling off the best part of themselves
If Pan Am were still going, I think they would have a fleet of A330-200s/300s, A350-900s, 737-800s, 737 Max 8s, 747-8Is, 777-300ERs, 787-8s, 787-9s and 787-10s with the same destinations and in Star Alliance.
Having so many varieties of aircraft would be a logistics nightmare, Instead of training pilots and mechanics for two or three types of planes, an airline would need to have them for a dozen plane types. The same with spare parts, you would need several extra warehouses full of expensive parts to keep a dozen types of planes flying compared to an airline with only 2 or 3 types of planes. Those extra costs make the difference between profit and loss and sent companies broke. In the past these "Noah's Ark Airlines" (they had two of every type of plane) often had the best customer service and strongest loyalty, but still went bust because of those costs that were invisible to passengers.
@@Dave_Sisson Spot on, this was another part of the PanAm disaster. Following their acquisition of National Airlines in 1980 the fleet became hugely diverse and complex with DC-10s, Tristars and 747s in the long haul fleet.
@@Davids_DC-10 It's not just in America, but Europe too. Even in Australia, Ansett Airlines was the most popular airline, but they had a huge variety of plane types before they went broke. If you look at the most profitable big airlines today like South West, EasyJet and Ryan Air, they all only fly one type of plane either A320s or B737s.
An American version of Emirates might just be what Pan Am would look like today. Focus on long-haul international routes from gateways like JFK to Europe, MIA to Latin America, and LAX off the west coast. Maybe ORD too. It would be supported by a domestic network feeding those gateways from medium to large cities. I don’t envision them in the smaller cities or the budget/vacation routes as much.
Sounds interesting thx for awesome aviation education vids I’m 15 and I learn a lot about aviation from u hope u had a great Christmas and happy new year guys
That's an interesting thought experiment. You know what else is interesting? What if Pan Am and TWA were both still in existence. Hmm... the Juan Tripp Howard Hughes saga 21st century style.
if its still exist today, it's fleet would of have Boeing 747-400s, 747-8i, and A380s. Might even buy American airlines and United, making it's U.S official flagship airline carrier. and that pan am A380 concept art is LOOKING AWESOME!
Their fleet would probably consist of 737s, a320s, 747s and 777s. Most routes would probably be constricted to the major airports and would primarily operate out of Miami, JFK, LAX and LHR.
Or probably has lots of codeshares Also i can see probably it will be the largest airline Beating emirates lufthansa qatar cathay klm all that good airlines
Pan Am was technically still operating in the form of a railroad in Massachusetts between 2006 and 2020. However it cease to exist as well thanks to CSX purchasing it last year.
It's a simple question. Pan Am was losing money long before they went out of business. If it didn't close down, they would have merged with another carrier, who would have got whatever it was worth for a low price. Stockholders would still have been wiped out. After the merger, the Pan Am name would still have vanished. One positive are some, or many, of the employees jobs would have been saved who got to work for the other carrier. Unfortunately, the writing was on the wall from the early 1980's on, that Pan Am would eventually not survive.
I think Pan Am would have survived if they actually had competent leadership after Juan T. Trippe stepped down on the eve of deregulation. They should have used the money they spent overpaying for National on building a domestic route network that focused on their strengths (i.e. jetBlue's network which is heavily focused on Transcontinental, NYC/BOS to Florida flying) as well as doubling down on the Asia-Pacific which was starting to boom by the time Pan Am sold all their Pacific routes to United Airlines in a shortsighted attempt to financially stabilize the company.
If Pan Am had survived and avoided flogging off large parts of their route network to paper over financial deficits they likely would resemble the US3 today. Their first and business product likely would be the best of the American carriers partially because of ego and because they'd want to compete with SQ and CX on the lucrative Asian routes. Pan Am was edging to becoming a mostly Airbus fleet by their demise in 1991 so if they survived their domestic fleet would be made up of all Airbus planes. Long Haul flying would be done by a mix of 777-300ers, A350s, 787s and A330s. The 747's would be gone by the pandemic, if not before, but Pan Am would have had a small fleet of 747-400s for their Asia routes. Maybe Boeing appeals to Pan Am's history with the 747 and convinces them to buy some 747-8i, but I doubt it. They likely join Oneworld since it's made Pan Am's flights were concentrated in predominantly Oneworld hubs today.
Pan Am's Juan Trippe guessed wrong with the 747. It might have worked if he'd agreed to buy 5 rather than 15, then bought newer more efficient jets as time allowed, but everything worked against him and the legacy he left behind when he retired in 1968. I've often wondered what rabbits he would have pulled out of his hat during the oil crisis, etc had he still been at the helm. He was a crafty wizard when it came to business.
Wishing the simple flying team a very happy new year..The best thing I have done this year is subscribing to your channel... Wonderful video loved it much ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
The Caribbean and South American routes Pan Am later flew were pioneered by NYRBA... New York, Rio, Buenos Aires. A wonderful old book, The Dream of Eagles, is a fascinating read of the creation and the route development of that incredible airline. NYRB based out of Dinner Key, Miami, which Pan Am acquired. The Miami mayor's office has been located in the NYRBA/Pan Am building for decades, and there is a fascinating aircraft model display in the lobby of all the aircraft they flew in the early days.
The NYRBA route actually extended to Johannesburg in the 60s using a 707. This was the shortest run over water between South America and Africa. Later iin the 80s the route was flown by a 747 SP. Both by PAN AM and SAA. Really surprised that SAA does not fly to South America.
What theyd look like today depends on at which time they managed to turn things to the good. In any case it would have not been unlikely that Pan Am either would have died after 9/11 or merged into another Airline. Example Scenario 1: the money from selling the pacific network helped enough to save the airline they would have become quite an Airbus Airline. A300s and A310s were already arriving, 50 A320s were on order. They would have replaced the 727s with these A320s and I am sure that they would habe been an very early A330/A340 customer. These planes would have replaced the whole 747 fleet. In the mid 90s I am sure Pan Am would have consisted of A300, A310, A320, A330 and A340 and maybe a couple remaining 727s and 747s dinosaurs. I could imagine that they would have ordered 787s to replace the A340s, but who knows? Example Scenario 2: Pan Am 2 made it after selling the JFK, FRA, LHR, the atlantic and NY Shuttle to Delta. They would have been a rather small to medium Airline that would sooner or later have merged into another Airline (maybe American).
Who wants a small, regional Pan Am? Some things are best remembered fondly than lived prosaically. The only way for Pan Am to once again become big if it had survived would be to buy one of the other large airlines and rename the other one Pan Am, like United did to Continental.
The only way Pan Am would have survived was if they established a decent domestic route structure. That is what killed them in the end. They were the Emirates of their day, but while Emirates could get away with that single hub structure, Pan Am, a US carrier competing with the likes of United, American, and Delta, not to mention US Air and Continental, would never have been able too. That's really what killed the airline, no domestic structure and increasing competition on international routes from domestic options. Now, if they had bought Continental which was coming out of bankruptcy in the 80's, or even US Air, they would still be around today as the stronger brand. They would have never bought a A380, and I hate to say it, probably would have never bought the 747-8 (unless they ordered it as a combi) for the same reason why no US airline purchased ether product. I could see them getting the 777-9 and -8 though. As for first class, it would probably look like products on Delta and United since US based airlines seem to think that American customers have no care for Emirates level of service.
I would think that Pan Am would continue its dominance in Latin America but also it would focus on rebuilding its Pacific influence as well (as it sold off its Pacific division to United years ago.)
I couldn't begin to start theorizing a what-if scenario for Pan Am in today's world, since I still have a lot more studying to do on both the airline as well as the aviation industry. However, based on what I do know, I think the real question is not so much what they would look like today, but rather who will have the guts to try to relaunch them, and what would it take to do so?
Pam Am certainly would still have a strong Latin American Presence especially from Miami. As we know they were known for its service. Today’s people don’t care about that as much especially with people on their cell phones the whole flight. Today’s people care more about cheaper tickets, more flight options and good frequent flyer points. Pam Am would certainly still have a good true first class option which many airlines here have gotten rid of and also a good transcontinental service. They would probably compare to Emirates today which I am slightly surprised that a US Airline still hasn’t done to things to contend against them. The things like the massive Jumbo Fleet, Carved Meats in first class and young flight attendants only probably wouldn’t be the case today.
I flew PAN AM from 1958. It was a Luxury airline till it went for the Jumbo Wide Body Boing 747. By 1990 it’s huge overhead caused a loss of 3 million/day and had to Stop
Great video, very informative. If Pan American Airways was still around, they wouldn’t be operating 747s. I envision Pan-Am operating Boeing 787-10s Dreamliners on its long-haul transatlantic and transpacific routes. Because Dreamliners are fuel efficient. Additionally, I could see Pan-Am, doing nonstop ultra long haul routes such as New York to Singapore, Orlando to Auckland, New Zealand, and Miami to Sydney. They would used Airbus A350s ULRs for those ultra long haul routes. Pan-Am, today would have have and extensive short and medium haul domestic routes. In envision the airline using Boeing 737s and Airbus A321s for its short and medium haul routes. Today I see Pan American Airways, offerings such as 1st Class and meal service being scaled down. Meaning, their meal service won’t be as extravagant and lavish as the 1960s. They’re meal services be on only international flights, not domestic in all classes. I’m sure they would have a buy on board food program for the domestic routes. Of course there would be no more first class on domestic and international routes. Which is a trend most airlines are doing these days (doing away with 1st class). Instead their highest class would be business class, followed by premium economy and economy. Overall, If Pan-Am was still around, it would be completely different airline from yesteryear. It would still had an extensive international and domestic presence.
If Pan Am had survived, they would have been a major early customer of the 777-200ER--the 777-200ER had the right capacity and especially the range for Pan Am's longer routes. And would have by now traded in the 777-200ER's for the 777-300ER and 787-9.
I think they would have 747-8i & A380 or A350's in the form of 900/900ULR,1000's As well as A321XLR, 787-900/787-10, 777-300ER/777-9's in their long haul fleet. Medium haul probebly A330neo's or A321CEO or Boeing 737-8/9 max's. Short haul/regional, Embraer E-190 or A320 series aircraft such as the A319/A318.
i could definitely see Pan Am operating the A380, 747-8, Airbus A350 and Boeing 787, back when it was just Douglas, Boeing and Lockheed, they weren't loyal to Boeing, they even placed orders for Concorde and the Boeing supersonic planee
There was a time when Delta acquired Northwest, that Delta considered buying the PAN AM name. This is not widely known, but it is true. Personally I think it was a mistake, they should have done it.
Pan Am was not exactly a name an Airline wanted to pay money for in the late 80s/early 90s. Many people were scared from flying Pan Am as they were a target of many terrorist attacks (Lockerbie!). Also in their last years service declined and the airplanes were in a very bad shape what also hurt their Reputation/the Brand name.
@@widget787 All very true, and I certainly witnessed everything your saying first hand. However 20 years later it's stature regrew to this mystical legendary airline.
I cannot envision that PanAm operating today. It would have never survived consolidation in the US airline inudstry, and that is probably a good thing. I can't imagine an airline with such a history participating in the race to the bottom of the barrel led by United, Delta and American.
That’s exactly what I think. I’m somewhat glad Pan Am stopped flying in the 1990s because we can remember it as a luxurious and extremely good airline. If it had survived, they would be as bad as AA, UA and DL are today…
Actually the possibility of Panam operating A380, regardless of Boeing's ties, may exist owing to the fact that they did operate large number of Airbus planes
Weirdly, there's a regional freight train company that uses the Pan Am name and logo in my area. I see "Pan Am" freight cars going by on the track near my house every day. It's apparently being bought by CSX.
Yea I believe Pan Am would have one of the world's largest fleets of triple 7s if they were still around alongside some 787s but i do believe that for their narrowbody fleet Pan Am would have the A320 family aircrafts over the 737 family,just my guess and opinion!!!!!!
I flew Pan Am 7 times in the mid 1980s. All 747 or 747SPs IAD-LHR, AMS-JFK, SFO or LAX to TYO, HKG, SYD, AUK and HNL.. They were absolutely flawless in the air in both First and Coach cabins, service second to none. Sadly on the ground their Reservations and Airport personnel were just as equally awful. I suspect that it was part of their demise. I was so sorry to see them fold.
I wouldn't say Pan Am would not have ordered the A380 because of Boeing loyalty. Remember - they also ordered the DC-8 at the same time of the 707.. and later they ordered Concorde before the announcement of Boeing 2707 SST. Later, Pan Am also got Airbus A310 (when they could've got Boeing 767's). So - no Boeing loyalty at all in my view. It seems like Pan Am always tried to use types that fitted their company, from different manufactures.
Pan Am couldn't fill the 747 for most of the time opperating them and were desperately trying to get rid, they'd be running twin jets across the pacific.
Then United would took the hit of Lockerbie, even though the would stand a better chance of survival thanks for their better financial state at the time, they would made through Gulf War, how big the are today depended on whether they could out bid AA to brought TWA's routes in 2001. If Pan Am managed to sell their Atlantic division to UA with a better price, perhaps they would place order on 747-400 to gradually replace their 100 series, without hit by Lockerbie, they barely survive Gulf War and finally reap benefit of East Asian economics boom of the 1990's, the rest of 747 classics would all be replace by Queen of the Sky, which first MD-11 the 777-200 would be brought to fly Latin American route, 757 replaced 727, 737-200 replaced by 737NG and A320. How big would Pan Am be today depend on whether they could brought Northwest's Pacific routes, but since it handed them near monopoly on Asian Pacific region, Delta would still got those routes, perhaps as compensation Pan Am would allowed to acquire part of TWA's Atlantic routes. Fast-forward to nowadays, there would be Big Four American Legacy Carriers instead of Three.
If Pan Am was still operating today, probably will drop Boeing 747's out of the fleet and replace them with 777's 787's Dreamliners and probably aquiring some A321's and ATR 72's for domestic routes. Or also chosing Embraer planes for internal routes instead.
I think Pan Am today would of been a mixture of Airbus and Boeing. In their later years they switched to Airbus big time with the introduction of the A310 and A300 into service in 1984 and they had even ordered the A320 which was never delivered. They were also looking at the A330 and A340 as potential long haul aircraft.
When you think about it Emirates is kind of the Pan Am of the 21st century.
100% correct
@@maxwellsmith9045 Pan Am Is NOT A BAD Airline
Qantas is closes to Pan Am but there will never be another airline that will have the same allure and mystique as Pan Am.
@@lifangyang3511 I think he was talking about Emirates
Then Qatar Airways is just TWA.
Wishing everyone a happy new year and a better year to all
You too.
Nice try sing somebody to have a good New year is always self-promotion you don't mean it you're a liar
@@Etherus69 what a hater
1st airline I've ever flew with between London and Berlin in the early 80's, as a kid, travelling alone and always remember how the air hostesses looked after me.
Pan Am was also my first flight ever but I was too young to remember everything -- in fact I remember close to nothing. Route was HAM-JFK and return.
Had Pan Am, with its stronghold on international routes, merged with TWA, which had a diverse domestic network, they may still be around today.
Too much clashing corporate culture would probably kill it, in all fairness
If they still operate the way they used to it would finally go bust either way. Low cost tickets is the way to go now, bad for the aviation anthusiast but that just how the market goes.
I suggest reading a book called "Skygods: The Fall of Pan Am" by Robert Gandt. There was a lot going against the airline as it wasn't allowed to fly domestically and didn't correctly predict the market along with other factors. If it survived, it would be a much smaller airline at best
Absolutely brilliant book.
Excellent read!
I read that book. I couldn't put it down. I never realized that Sandy Acker designed the iconic uniform with the Boller hat. If the airline was still in business, the Boeing 757 and Triple 7 would have looked heart-stopping in Pan Am colors. I fault the downfall, or at least the start of it, to Edward Acker's involvement. He did to Pan Am, what Frank Lorenzo did to Eastern.😢
If Pan Am were still operating, the world would be a better place. The same goes for TWA.
TWA still lives inside of American, at least they exist (virtually)
Pan Am and TWA were crap. CIA spying tools.
Ok Indranil Chakrabarty.
@@aviationlba747 The KGB used Aeroflot and the CIA used Pan Am. Air travel is so nice today. EK, ET, SQ, TG... the WORKS. Back in rhe 70s and 80s these Americans and Europeans lorded it over the third world. I flew Air France from Bangkok in 1983 on a 747 200. During the take off roll, the plane shook like a quake had hit it. The FAs while pretty, were rude, racist and impolite. These Americans and Europeans put run down planes on third world routes. Air Travel is much better today No Asian, ME3 or Ethiopian back then
@@indranilchakrabarty4196 What you are saying is irrelevant. If Pan Am and TWA were still operating today, they would obviously be much improved from what they were 20-30+ years ago.
If Pan Am survived today; it's fleet would be:
- 747-8I (might have given a boost to the 747-8 program)
- 747-400 (2 or 1 units left, almost all retired)
- 787-8/787-9
- 777-200LR and 777-300ER
-Airbus A350-900, A350-1000 XWB
-Airbus A321 Ceo/ A321LR and XLR
-Airbus A340-500 (1 unit)
Yeah just saying despite PANAM's relationship with Boeing getting into Airbus aircraft was an inevitability because especially if you consider the specs of the aircraft they're mostly superior in range and efficiency. So I feel like yes, just like United which was literally founded by William Boeing they would indeed buy some Airbus. While United only uses Airbus for short hall roots, they only have A319-200CEOS and A320-200CEOS. I suspect the only reason why they have these is because of Continental's merger with United they probably wouldn't have the airbusses at all. Maybe I'm wrong though.
I'm gonna be honest...I don't think they'd have A350. They'd probably stay loyal to Boeing, considering the 747 and 777 wide bodies
The post-9/11 airline crisis would probably have killed off Pan Am
That was the final blow that finished off TWA.
COVID definitely would too
They would have merged with either United or American
why didnt 9/11 killed American or United.
@@bearabletable7527 they were too big and dominated the market to the point that they cant be killed off like that
if PAN AM was still around it would be a pleasure to witness that 70s glamour and aura that pan am brought to the table it's just unique. that style and top of the line comfort both combined for something extraordinary.
In New England it exists in another life on the ground
Pan Am is sorely missed.
Not by me, a Jewish American.
@@stuartlee6622 So what has being Jewish got to do with your not missing Pan Am?
@@stuartlee6622🤥⛽️
There's a freight railroad operating with the Pan Am livery!
They were sold a few weeks ago. It doesn’t exist.
@@tonnyyyzzzplays7309 to csx but it’s still not 100% yet
@@tonnyyyzzzplays7309 rip
Ha lol
The training academy is belonging to ANA
@@tonnyyyzzzplays7309 no they still are trying to
I would hope that Pan Am retained a high level of American style customer service and is admired for it. Something that is lacking today in budget conscious United and American Airlines that are trying to adapt RyanAir style non existent service.
What are you talking about: "It's American roots and relationship to Boeing may have prevented [flying the A380]"?
Pan Am flew the A300, was a launch customer for the A310, and had 50 A320s on order when they collapsed. Their relationship with Airbus was strong too.
This is a very thought provoking video for me as I was a frequent passenger on Pan-Am jets in the 60s-70s. My first trip on board the magnificent 747 was on Pan-Am in 1971. That was the day I fell in love with the Jumbo jet! She still my all time favorite today! My proffession took me to places where cost and time constraints made taking Pan-Am back home to Brazil via the USA impractical. PA was me favourite airline back in those days and it's been fascinating to ponder what their fleet would look like today, had they still been around. Great idea for a video, mates! Cheers!
Flew Pan Am in 78 LHR to JFK and again in 79 LHR to L.A. then on to Honolulu, 40 years on I still remember the rude service from the cabin crew. PA lost their way in the 80s and never recovered from Lockerbie. But still an Icon in Aviation history along with many of the big American carriers.
I can’t see Pan Am without thinking of Pam Ann 🤣
Hi simple flying team wish u a happy new year and keep up with the good work
Pan Am fleet 2021: 747-8,777-300ER,787-9,787-10,A321ULR
And a330
@@Brtt4849 more accurately A330Neo
@STEPHEN CHEN good choice
2:22 Pan Am had A300s and A310s in their fleet, so...
And they ordered A320s. IMO they would have become a serious Airbus Airline also being a launch customer for the A330/A340 to replace the 747s.
Pan Am A340-600 would be staggering pretty.
@@widget787 that wouldn’t happen. They would never replace their 747 with an airbus.
I Think Pan Am Is Get Less A340-600
@@KanyeTheGayFish69 Lots of money was being lost.
You may recall that PAN AM flew several Airbus aircraft types (A300 & A310) so it is very possible that if the airline had survived they very much could have been the launch customer for the A380 jumbo as well as the A340 and its variations and most assuredly would have been the luanch customer for the 777 & 787 boeing aircraft. Great story and thank you
oh I don't believe PAN AM should has Airbus A380 nor bigger airplanes than 777-200 and Airbus A350 because terrorists threats
I believe that Pan Am will exist again. The last livery ( Billboard livery) is just to cool and adaptable to future aircraft. The film ‘2001 space odyssey’ was prophecy for Pan Am, but I believe the future Pan Am livery will be a continuation of the Billboard livery with no changes.
It's a great question, one I've wondered about over the years. Pan Am was hindered by a weak domestic route network that it couldn't afford to expand through acquisition after the failed National merger. Yet throughout the '80s, none of the stronger domestic airlines wanted to buy Pan Am when they could just wait for Pan Am's next round of asset sales.
They also couldn't have been the Emirates of North America because the U.S. only allowed international transits without having to submit to the full immigration and customs regimen on a very limited basis before 9/11, and not at all after that.
I eventually figured the only hope for a Pan Am today would have been for it to seek out a merger with one big domestic airline such as United or American immediately upon deregulation in 1978. Had Pan Am been the surviving brand, it would have become very similar to today's UA/AA in both onboard experience and fleet: no A380s, but probably 777s.
Actually, Pan Am _still exists_ as a flight training center in Miami!
And a railroad
The airlines that are elegant like Pan Am are the three gulf airlines: Emirates, Qatar and Ethiad!
We are in a nostalgic time... what would be more nostalgic than seeing Pan Am take to the skies once more???
Before deregulation at the end of the 1970s, Pan Am and TWA had the international routes (Eastern had South American routes and Northwest had Asian routes) and the likes of United, Delta, and American were domestic carriers. United, Delta, and American were better able to leverage their domestic networks and reconfigure to compete in the deregulated era. While their smaller aircraft provided them some advantages to reconfigure and compete, they also had much better leadership too. In the next 15 years, the writing was on the wall as Pan Am, TWA, and Eastern had begun to sell significant portions of themselves (route authorities that were still regulated) in order to survive. United acquired Heathrow and Asia authorities from Pan Am (its Crown Jewels), American acquired Heathrow from TWA and South America from Eastern, and Delta acquired European from Pan Am. Those two airlines couldn’t survive by selling off the best part of themselves
If Pan Am were still going, I think they would have a fleet of A330-200s/300s, A350-900s, 737-800s, 737 Max 8s, 747-8Is, 777-300ERs, 787-8s, 787-9s and 787-10s with the same destinations and in Star Alliance.
Maybe 737 MAX 10s, since they have a history of large aircraft (or whatever was considered large back then).
Having so many varieties of aircraft would be a logistics nightmare, Instead of training pilots and mechanics for two or three types of planes, an airline would need to have them for a dozen plane types. The same with spare parts, you would need several extra warehouses full of expensive parts to keep a dozen types of planes flying compared to an airline with only 2 or 3 types of planes. Those extra costs make the difference between profit and loss and sent companies broke. In the past these "Noah's Ark Airlines" (they had two of every type of plane) often had the best customer service and strongest loyalty, but still went bust because of those costs that were invisible to passengers.
@@Dave_Sisson Spot on, this was another part of the PanAm disaster. Following their acquisition of National Airlines in 1980 the fleet became hugely diverse and complex with DC-10s, Tristars and 747s in the long haul fleet.
@@Davids_DC-10 It's not just in America, but Europe too. Even in Australia, Ansett Airlines was the most popular airline, but they had a huge variety of plane types before they went broke. If you look at the most profitable big airlines today like South West, EasyJet and Ryan Air, they all only fly one type of plane either A320s or B737s.
@@Dave_Sisson Couldn't agree more, people commenting with laundry lists of aircraft clearly have no idea about the economics of these things.
Me: Stop it, dont give me hope..
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I still have the Pam Am tote bag they gave out in the 70's. And the amenities kit (sans toothpaste) from 1990.
An American version of Emirates might just be what Pan Am would look like today. Focus on long-haul international routes from gateways like JFK to Europe, MIA to Latin America, and LAX off the west coast. Maybe ORD too. It would be supported by a domestic network feeding those gateways from medium to large cities. I don’t envision them in the smaller cities or the budget/vacation routes as much.
Sounds interesting thx for awesome aviation education vids I’m 15 and I learn a lot about aviation from u hope u had a great Christmas and happy new year guys
I'm 11
@@mann2520 no one asked
Thumbnail of A380 with Pan-Am livery.
Me: Hell yeah open it now.
I literally had this thought yesterday 😯
That's an interesting thought experiment. You know what else is interesting? What if Pan Am and TWA were both still in existence. Hmm... the Juan Tripp Howard Hughes saga 21st century style.
Gibran Bedra they probably would have need to merge together in order to survive..
I’ve always wondered what the first class cabins on their PAA fleet would look like today.
if its still exist today, it's fleet would of have Boeing 747-400s, 747-8i, and A380s. Might even buy American airlines and United, making it's U.S official flagship airline carrier. and that pan am A380 concept art is LOOKING AWESOME!
Wishing everyone here and Simple Flying, a more prosperous, productive, enjoyable and a safe New year 2021.😘😘😘😘😘❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
Their fleet would probably consist of 737s, a320s, 747s and 777s. Most routes would probably be constricted to the major airports and would primarily operate out of Miami, JFK, LAX and LHR.
Probably would be in Star Alliance
Or probably has lots of codeshares
Also i can see probably it will be the largest airline
Beating emirates lufthansa qatar cathay klm all that good airlines
Pan Am was technically still operating in the form of a railroad in Massachusetts between 2006 and 2020. However it cease to exist as well thanks to CSX purchasing it last year.
PAN AM The name brings back some great travel memories. Miss the glamour.
Pan am was actually resurrected 6 times since it went defunct in 1991. the most recent of this ceased operations in December of 2018
I only know of 2. What are all 6?
It's a simple question. Pan Am was losing money long before they went out of business. If it didn't close down, they would have merged with another carrier, who would have got whatever it was worth for a low price. Stockholders would still have been wiped out. After the merger, the Pan Am name would still have vanished. One positive are some, or many, of the employees jobs would have been saved who got to work for the other carrier. Unfortunately, the writing was on the wall from the early 1980's on, that Pan Am would eventually not survive.
I think Pan Am would have survived if they actually had competent leadership after Juan T. Trippe stepped down on the eve of deregulation. They should have used the money they spent overpaying for National on building a domestic route network that focused on their strengths (i.e. jetBlue's network which is heavily focused on Transcontinental, NYC/BOS to Florida flying) as well as doubling down on the Asia-Pacific which was starting to boom by the time Pan Am sold all their Pacific routes to United Airlines in a shortsighted attempt to financially stabilize the company.
Only 1970s kids will remember this
Pan Am was the virtual symbol of the golden age of aviation. I wish they would come back.
First airline I have flown on a 707 in 1977
I miss Pan Am alot. Never got to fly on any of their planes. They are so nice looking !!!
The first video I watch in 2021!
Not 2021 yet!?!??!
If Pan Am had survived and avoided flogging off large parts of their route network to paper over financial deficits they likely would resemble the US3 today. Their first and business product likely would be the best of the American carriers partially because of ego and because they'd want to compete with SQ and CX on the lucrative Asian routes. Pan Am was edging to becoming a mostly Airbus fleet by their demise in 1991 so if they survived their domestic fleet would be made up of all Airbus planes. Long Haul flying would be done by a mix of 777-300ers, A350s, 787s and A330s. The 747's would be gone by the pandemic, if not before, but Pan Am would have had a small fleet of 747-400s for their Asia routes. Maybe Boeing appeals to Pan Am's history with the 747 and convinces them to buy some 747-8i, but I doubt it. They likely join Oneworld since it's made Pan Am's flights were concentrated in predominantly Oneworld hubs today.
Pan Am's Juan Trippe guessed wrong with the 747. It might have worked if he'd agreed to buy 5 rather than 15, then bought newer more efficient jets as time allowed, but everything worked against him and the legacy he left behind when he retired in 1968. I've often wondered what rabbits he would have pulled out of his hat during the oil crisis, etc had he still been at the helm. He was a crafty wizard when it came to business.
Wishing the simple flying team a very happy new year..The best thing I have done this year is subscribing to your channel... Wonderful video loved it much ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
The Caribbean and South American routes Pan Am later flew were pioneered by NYRBA... New York, Rio, Buenos Aires.
A wonderful old book, The Dream of Eagles, is a fascinating read of the creation and the route development of that incredible airline.
NYRB based out of Dinner Key, Miami, which Pan Am acquired.
The Miami mayor's office has been located in the NYRBA/Pan Am building for decades, and there is a fascinating aircraft model display in the lobby of all the aircraft they flew in the early days.
The NYRBA route actually extended to Johannesburg in the 60s using a 707. This was the shortest run over water between South America and Africa. Later iin the 80s the route was flown by a 747 SP. Both by PAN AM and SAA. Really surprised that SAA does not fly to South America.
@@indranilchakrabarty4196 In all honesty, I am surprised that SAA is still flying at all.
@@fredmoore8661 All the best to SAA. Hope they grow wimgs again
Can you do a clip about how TWA might have looked today?
What theyd look like today depends on at which time they managed to turn things to the good. In any case it would have not been unlikely that Pan Am either would have died after 9/11 or merged into another Airline.
Example Scenario 1: the money from selling the pacific network helped enough to save the airline they would have become quite an Airbus Airline. A300s and A310s were already arriving, 50 A320s were on order. They would have replaced the 727s with these A320s and I am sure that they would habe been an very early A330/A340 customer. These planes would have replaced the whole 747 fleet. In the mid 90s I am sure Pan Am would have consisted of A300, A310, A320, A330 and A340 and maybe a couple remaining 727s and 747s dinosaurs. I could imagine that they would have ordered 787s to replace the A340s, but who knows?
Example Scenario 2: Pan Am 2 made it after selling the JFK, FRA, LHR, the atlantic and NY Shuttle to Delta. They would have been a rather small to medium Airline that would sooner or later have merged into another Airline (maybe American).
I think they would be the launch customer for Boom's supersonic jet
Oh, definitely!!
I flew from 1970-76 - those were the best years of my life!
I flew on pan am 747 sp many times my dad worked for pan am out of jfk. Miss this great airlines
I would picture pan am as good as it was before
The might follow the rules and match checked on-board suitcases with passengers who would be actually on-board....
Who wants a small, regional Pan Am? Some things are best remembered fondly than lived prosaically. The only way for Pan Am to once again become big if it had survived would be to buy one of the other large airlines and rename the other one Pan Am, like United did to Continental.
Emirates reminds me of the modern Pan Am.
I also think the same
0:30 I’ve seen that poster at my grandmas house
What a great way to end 2020
Happy 2021 Everyone
The only way Pan Am would have survived was if they established a decent domestic route structure. That
is what killed them in the end. They were the Emirates of their day, but while Emirates could get away with that single hub structure, Pan Am, a US carrier competing with the likes of United, American, and Delta, not to mention US Air and Continental, would never have been able too. That's really what killed the airline, no domestic structure and increasing competition on international routes from domestic options. Now, if they had bought Continental which was coming out of bankruptcy in the 80's, or even US Air, they would still be around today as the stronger brand. They would have never bought a A380, and I hate to say it, probably would have never bought the 747-8 (unless they ordered it as a combi) for the same reason why no US airline purchased ether product. I could see them getting the 777-9 and -8 though. As for first class, it would probably look like products on Delta and United since US based airlines seem to think that American customers have no care for Emirates level of service.
I would think that Pan Am would continue its dominance in Latin America but also it would focus on rebuilding its Pacific influence as well (as it sold off its Pacific division to United years ago.)
Awe, thank you again for using some of the commercials from my channel. Have a happy new years!
I couldn't begin to start theorizing a what-if scenario for Pan Am in today's world, since I still have a lot more studying to do on both the airline as well as the aviation industry. However, based on what I do know, I think the real question is not so much what they would look like today, but rather who will have the guts to try to relaunch them, and what would it take to do so?
Well if Pan Am were still around, it would have a new livery on its body and its tail by now that is certainly true....
probably a new typeface always in blue color
Pam Am certainly would still have a strong Latin American Presence especially from Miami. As we know they were known for its service. Today’s people don’t care about that as much especially with people on their cell phones the whole flight. Today’s people care more about cheaper tickets, more flight options and good frequent flyer points. Pam Am would certainly still have a good true first class option which many airlines here have gotten rid of and also a good transcontinental service. They would probably compare to Emirates today which I am slightly surprised that a US Airline still hasn’t done to things to contend against them.
The things like the massive Jumbo Fleet, Carved Meats in first class and young flight attendants only probably wouldn’t be the case today.
1:31 The airline deregulation made these beautiful legrooms disappear !
I flew PAN AM from 1958. It was a Luxury airline till it went for the Jumbo Wide Body Boing 747. By 1990 it’s huge overhead caused a loss of 3 million/day and had to Stop
I reckon it would be as loved and be great to still have that catchy title PANAM and probably the best or one of name for an airline out there.
Great video, very informative. If Pan American Airways was still around, they wouldn’t be operating 747s.
I envision Pan-Am operating Boeing 787-10s Dreamliners on its long-haul transatlantic and transpacific routes. Because Dreamliners are fuel efficient. Additionally, I could see Pan-Am, doing nonstop ultra long haul routes such as New York to Singapore, Orlando to Auckland, New Zealand, and Miami to Sydney. They would used Airbus A350s ULRs for those ultra long haul routes. Pan-Am, today would have have and extensive short and medium haul domestic routes. In envision the airline using Boeing 737s and Airbus A321s for its short and medium haul routes.
Today I see Pan American Airways, offerings such as 1st Class and meal service being scaled down. Meaning, their meal service won’t be as extravagant and lavish as the 1960s. They’re meal services be on only international flights, not domestic in all classes. I’m sure they would have a buy on board food program for the domestic routes.
Of course there would be no more first class on domestic and international routes. Which is a trend most airlines are doing these days (doing away with 1st class). Instead their highest class would be business class, followed by premium economy and economy. Overall, If Pan-Am was still around, it would be completely different airline from yesteryear. It would still had an extensive international and domestic presence.
All of our Pan Am’ers would still be with the world’s greatest airliner very happily..🥰
If Pan Am had survived, they would have been a major early customer of the 777-200ER--the 777-200ER had the right capacity and especially the range for Pan Am's longer routes. And would have by now traded in the 777-200ER's for the 777-300ER and 787-9.
If you ask me they would have been an early A330/340 customer as they already were leaning towards Airbus pretty much at the end.
I think they would have 747-8i & A380 or A350's in the form of 900/900ULR,1000's
As well as A321XLR, 787-900/787-10, 777-300ER/777-9's in their long haul fleet.
Medium haul probebly A330neo's or A321CEO or Boeing 737-8/9 max's.
Short haul/regional, Embraer E-190 or A320 series aircraft such as the A319/A318.
Happy 2021 to Simple Flying. RIP Pan Am. Pan Am service was terrible.
i could definitely see Pan Am operating the A380, 747-8, Airbus A350 and Boeing 787, back when it was just Douglas, Boeing and Lockheed, they weren't loyal to Boeing, they even placed orders for Concorde and the Boeing supersonic planee
Pan Am flight 842: Manila-Guam-Honluulu-San Francisco. Daily from 1958 till.1990.
There was a time when Delta acquired Northwest, that Delta considered buying the PAN AM name. This is not widely known, but it is true. Personally I think it was a mistake, they should have done it.
Pan Am was not exactly a name an Airline wanted to pay money for in the late 80s/early 90s. Many people were scared from flying Pan Am as they were a target of many terrorist attacks (Lockerbie!). Also in their last years service declined and the airplanes were in a very bad shape what also hurt their Reputation/the Brand name.
@@widget787 All very true, and I certainly witnessed everything your saying first hand. However 20 years later it's stature regrew to this mystical legendary airline.
I cannot envision that PanAm operating today. It would have never survived consolidation in the US airline inudstry, and that is probably a good thing. I can't imagine an airline with such a history participating in the race to the bottom of the barrel led by United, Delta and American.
Pan Am's current fleet would be exactly the same as American Airlines
Pan Am stopped being special after the 1960s. If they had survived today their service levels would be in-line with likes of AA, DL and UA.
That’s exactly what I think. I’m somewhat glad Pan Am stopped flying in the 1990s because we can remember it as a luxurious and extremely good airline. If it had survived, they would be as bad as AA, UA and DL are today…
Wonder who owns the name now. A new airline under the pan am name would certainly have a head start
A railroad Does!
I was with Pan Am for 17 years.
As a brit I wish it was I loved pan am said everything about america .
Actually the possibility of Panam operating A380, regardless of Boeing's ties, may exist owing to the fact that they did operate large number of Airbus planes
Make a video on twa and the northwest airlines too
Pan Am with the 787!! Wow
Weirdly, there's a regional freight train company that uses the Pan Am name and logo in my area. I see "Pan Am" freight cars going by on the track near my house every day. It's apparently being bought by CSX.
Happy new year to all of you 🎂 🎉 🎉 🎉
If Pan AM was still operating today they may put the ptvs on all long haul fleet for sure in the economy class.
Yea I believe Pan Am would have one of the world's largest fleets of triple 7s if they were still around alongside some 787s but i do believe that for their narrowbody fleet Pan Am would have the A320 family aircrafts over the 737 family,just my guess and opinion!!!!!!
I flew Pan Am 7 times in the mid 1980s. All 747 or 747SPs IAD-LHR, AMS-JFK, SFO or LAX to TYO, HKG, SYD, AUK and HNL.. They were absolutely flawless in the air in both First and Coach cabins, service second to none. Sadly on the ground their Reservations and Airport personnel were just as equally awful. I suspect that it was part of their demise. I was so sorry to see them fold.
Agree 100%
I wouldn't say Pan Am would not have ordered the A380 because of Boeing loyalty.
Remember - they also ordered the DC-8 at the same time of the 707.. and later they ordered Concorde before the announcement of Boeing 2707 SST.
Later, Pan Am also got Airbus A310 (when they could've got Boeing 767's).
So - no Boeing loyalty at all in my view. It seems like Pan Am always tried to use types that fitted their company, from different manufactures.
You know, if Pan Am hadn't sold its entire Pacific division to United Airlines they would fly 747-400's
Pan Am couldn't fill the 747 for most of the time opperating them and were desperately trying to get rid, they'd be running twin jets across the pacific.
Then United would took the hit of Lockerbie, even though the would stand a better chance of survival thanks for their better financial state at the time, they would made through Gulf War, how big the are today depended on whether they could out bid AA to brought TWA's routes in 2001.
If Pan Am managed to sell their Atlantic division to UA with a better price, perhaps they would place order on 747-400 to gradually replace their 100 series, without hit by Lockerbie, they barely survive Gulf War and finally reap benefit of East Asian economics boom of the 1990's, the rest of 747 classics would all be replace by Queen of the Sky, which first MD-11 the 777-200 would be brought to fly Latin American route, 757 replaced 727, 737-200 replaced by 737NG and A320. How big would Pan Am be today depend on whether they could brought Northwest's Pacific routes, but since it handed them near monopoly on Asian Pacific region, Delta would still got those routes, perhaps as compensation Pan Am would allowed to acquire part of TWA's Atlantic routes. Fast-forward to nowadays, there would be Big Four American Legacy Carriers instead of Three.
If Pan Am was still operating today, I'm 100% certain they'd be flying the A380 and 747-8 out of their major hubs such as JFK, LAX, and ORD.
If Pan Am was still operating today, probably will drop Boeing 747's out of the fleet and replace them with 777's 787's Dreamliners and probably aquiring some A321's and ATR 72's for domestic routes. Or also chosing Embraer planes for internal routes instead.
Most likely they would have 787s 777s a320s a330s a350s 737-800/900 737max a321neo a320neo a321xlr and E170s E175 E190 E195 and maybe a220
I think Pan Am today would of been a mixture of Airbus and Boeing. In their later years they switched to Airbus big time with the introduction of the A310 and A300 into service in 1984 and they had even ordered the A320 which was never delivered. They were also looking at the A330 and A340 as potential long haul aircraft.
I don't think Pan Am would have operated 4-engine Airbus.
2:26 NOT TRUE in the 80's and before its collapse, PanAm had Airbus planes in its fleet.