Thank you Ken, and the 'Lab Rats' for your efforts! We all can benefit from your hard work ! I totally agree, that humans are sensitive to incredible small variations, that translate into 'feel' but are hard to express! Be it string tension, string gauge , etc, etc (micro variations) ...! Please, keep up the good work ! ps the Luthier world is so much set into 'tradition' that sometimes it's hard to make them accept small experiments, which always translate in huge amount of work, out of their usual methods. I ended up designing my own original model, but it was such a struggle to make my friend Luthier accept it ! At the end, he ended up using some of the different solutions I proposed. I've been searching for a Parker (solid body) for a while now, but they are hard to come by, here in Europe, or, at prohibitive prices, even second hand, and you never know whet you'll get. any advice on what to look for? A happy Christmas and a Great New year to everyone at Parker guitars! Take care and thank you for sharing !
This area of inquiry is fascinating and terrific basic science yielding evidence luthiers can build upon. I would be interested to know the effects of reverse headstock peg placement after-length on string tension. I think this could be done on the existing rig by changing the string order.
This is incredible, it's so amazing that you're doing this work and then sharing it! I was wondering also about the effect of the resonant frequencies of the after-nut and after-bridge areas on perceived sound - this fixture would also be amazing for testing that.
Thanks Ken! I have been following Archtoppery as a fan and a luthier. I fully understand you are going after the perceived as an easier feel, and that the string length from nut to saddle will be a measurable tension based on string makeup and pitch. So in my perception, I was at the notion that it was the added stretch of the string past the nut and/or saddle that contributed to the actual string performance, which would rely on friction at the contact points as much as anything. To use your example, the friction if the string over the delrin nut is considerably greater at 80 degrees than at 4 degrees. I would like to see this experiment performed using roller bearings to control for friction in the experiment. Another thing that you touched on that I would like to see is bending the string up a semi-tone or full tone and really engage the after string length. It might need a deflection distance to measure alongside the pressure. I have great respect and admiration for you as a luthier and a positive contributor to human achievement. Kudos to the Lab Rats as well!
Hearing about constantly needing to tune to pitch made me think of the robo tuners that Gibson used for a minute. This might be their calling, I don’t think many people liked them on their instruments 😂 Thanks for the insightful content as always!
I saw an experiment on Devons Mullen's Instagram that the extra length after the bridge significantly reduces the amplitude of the string vibration. He used a much simpler rig: a board with two bass strings and two mono bridges, one string has a 9 inch "after-length". The hammer hits both strings at the same time and the string with the extra length vibrates with a much smaller amplitude.
I wonder if measuring the force/displacement of a string laterally, like it would be if bending a note while playing, would have any effect on the results. Instead of stretching directly away from the fretboard as in this demonstration. If the orientation of the string seated in the nut slots, and the direction of the force applied may have any input change? With regards to the break angle as discussed. Someday I hope to try one of your guitars! :)
An interesting test might be to _hide_ the headstock angle from a player, but just _tell_ them you are changing it, and see if they perceive a difference. 🤔 Very cool jig.
Would adding a spectrum analyzer (via some pickups, magnetic or piezo) add another great dimension to the results by giving you feedback on the amplitude changes to the harmonics? There are some great digital analyzers that will display multiple lines, in different colors, to better see the changes. BTW, really enjoyed this and so many more of your videos. Thank you for sharing your brilliant ideas!!
Thanks Ken. I think my eye just really wants the headstock angle to be right at where the strings first become parallel viewed from the side. Merry Whatever!
Very good testing device and good info. Like you I'm surprised that there wasn't a greater difference in tension from 82-7 degrees. If the string were only moved the 4/64" it takes to reach the fret I think the number would be even less. I know a lot of builders and players and Gibson would argue the downward string tension at the nut is vital for tone. The reasoning being the "greater the headstock angle the greater the downward pressure". I'm not Jonesing for a tone debate but I'm sure that's why keeps a 14 degree headstock angle even though they get lots of headstock breaks with their current design. It would be interesting if your Apollo could test for down pressure at the nut with the various headstock angles.
Looks like you're ready to start making a pedal steel. I'd love to have one with the low E tuned to the same 82hz as a guitar. Amazing fixture, love to see the data.
There's a lot of debate in the guitar world where a Fender Strat style inline Headstock is better reversed to have the longer string length past the Nut on the Bass strings as opposed to the traditional style! Any thoughts on this Ken?
Interesting- Was it a smooth linear difference of 2% from 4-80 degrees? What I take away from this is that with only a 2% difference between 4 and 80 degrees (!), there is absolutely zero reason to argue, worry or further consider the differences between 12 degrees (classical guitar slotted headstock) and 15-17 degrees (Typical steel string guitar range) in building in regard to the feel of string tension, assuming the nut is slotted well with minimal friction. Yet...-What would be interesting is if you did a *blind* test with the right hand on the strings between the 4 and 80 degrees- if you could consistently feel that 2% difference with the hand then that would be more interesting for builders and players. But as it is, 2% over 4-80 degrees doesn't mean much to me from an empirical standpoint.
Based on the concept that "greater break angle = greater friction" at the nut (or saddle), it would seem that a system with a zero fret, guide pins instead of nut slots, straight string pull-through, and just enough break angle to keep the strings on the zero fret would result in minimum fretting and bending effort. Additional string above the nut or below the saddles should allow for additional elastic deformation, resulting in less effort for extreme bends. I actually did a build with no nut, a zero fret, and guide pins once - the Fender 12 build, a minimalist/experimental thing with a neck from a 1969 Fender Villager 12-string acoustic: ua-cam.com/video/A-giuX43Bso/v-deo.html However, I tend to use locknuts on most all my builds these days, as it factors everything above the nut line out of the tuning stability equation. The real trick would be to come up with a locknut that doesn't need an Allen wrench, so tuning would be almost as fast and easy as with a regular nut - perhaps an all-6-at-once camlock system. Sounds like a job for a machinist! Additional after length can supposedly add overtones that may or may not be desirable. I've never found it to be an issue on any guitar personally. There are also claims that it has a positive effect on sustain. I have yet to look into that and suspect it's just BS: "bad science". I once made a rig like this to test the effect of afterlength on tone. 2 strings, same gauge, one with 1" after-length, one with 11" after-length. No effect on tone. Perhaps somewhat easier fretting - thin strings and low action don't require much fretting effort to begin with. Longer after-length = less bending effort. I didn't test for differences in sustain. I was interested in using long after-lengths and vertical roller trees to route strings to ergonomic tuner locations on tail-tuner builds.
Yup, the company that manufactured them for Gibson "Tronical Tune" still exists, and sells a variety of different versions for different headstocks etc.
Thank you Ken, and the 'Lab Rats' for your efforts! We all can benefit from your hard work !
I totally agree, that humans are sensitive to incredible small variations, that translate into 'feel' but are hard to express! Be it string tension, string gauge , etc, etc (micro variations) ...!
Please, keep up the good work !
ps the Luthier world is so much set into 'tradition' that sometimes it's hard to make them accept small experiments, which always translate in huge amount of work, out of their usual methods.
I ended up designing my own original model, but it was such a struggle to make my friend Luthier accept it ! At the end, he ended up using some of the different solutions I proposed.
I've been searching for a Parker (solid body) for a while now, but they are hard to come by, here in Europe, or, at prohibitive prices, even second hand, and you never know whet you'll get.
any advice on what to look for?
A happy Christmas and a Great New year to everyone at Parker guitars! Take care and thank you for sharing !
Thabnks for this episode and Merry Christmas!
This area of inquiry is fascinating and terrific basic science yielding evidence luthiers can build upon. I would be interested to know the effects of reverse headstock peg placement after-length on string tension. I think this could be done on the existing rig by changing the string order.
This is incredible, it's so amazing that you're doing this work and then sharing it! I was wondering also about the effect of the resonant frequencies of the after-nut and after-bridge areas on perceived sound - this fixture would also be amazing for testing that.
Interesting test fixture!
Thanks Ken! I have been following Archtoppery as a fan and a luthier. I fully understand you are going after the perceived as an easier feel, and that the string length from nut to saddle will be a measurable tension based on string makeup and pitch. So in my perception, I was at the notion that it was the added stretch of the string past the nut and/or saddle that contributed to the actual string performance, which would rely on friction at the contact points as much as anything. To use your example, the friction if the string over the delrin nut is considerably greater at 80 degrees than at 4 degrees. I would like to see this experiment performed using roller bearings to control for friction in the experiment. Another thing that you touched on that I would like to see is bending the string up a semi-tone or full tone and really engage the after string length. It might need a deflection distance to measure alongside the pressure. I have great respect and admiration for you as a luthier and a positive contributor to human achievement. Kudos to the Lab Rats as well!
Hearing about constantly needing to tune to pitch made me think of the robo tuners that Gibson used for a minute. This might be their calling, I don’t think many people liked them on their instruments 😂
Thanks for the insightful content as always!
I saw an experiment on Devons Mullen's Instagram that the extra length after the bridge significantly reduces the amplitude of the string vibration. He used a much simpler rig: a board with two bass strings and two mono bridges, one string has a 9 inch "after-length". The hammer hits both strings at the same time and the string with the extra length vibrates with a much smaller amplitude.
I wonder if measuring the force/displacement of a string laterally, like it would be if bending a note while playing, would have any effect on the results. Instead of stretching directly away from the fretboard as in this demonstration. If the orientation of the string seated in the nut slots, and the direction of the force applied may have any input change? With regards to the break angle as discussed. Someday I hope to try one of your guitars! :)
I suppose there are too much variables...One , perpendicular direction, is enough to work with, for starters.
Wonderful, thank you for sharing this video!
An interesting test might be to _hide_ the headstock angle from a player, but just _tell_ them you are changing it, and see if they perceive a difference. 🤔 Very cool jig.
Would adding a spectrum analyzer (via some pickups, magnetic or piezo) add another great dimension to the results by giving you feedback on the amplitude changes to the harmonics? There are some great digital analyzers that will display multiple lines, in different colors, to better see the changes. BTW, really enjoyed this and so many more of your videos. Thank you for sharing your brilliant ideas!!
Thanks Ken. I think my eye just really wants the headstock angle to be right at where the strings first become parallel viewed from the side. Merry Whatever!
Really interesting!
Great project!
Very good testing device and good info. Like you I'm surprised that there wasn't a greater difference in tension from 82-7 degrees. If the string were only moved the 4/64" it takes to reach the fret I think the number would be even less. I know a lot of builders and players and Gibson would argue the downward string tension at the nut is vital for tone. The reasoning being the "greater the headstock angle the greater the downward pressure". I'm not Jonesing for a tone debate but I'm sure that's why keeps a 14 degree headstock angle even though they get lots of headstock breaks with their current design. It would be interesting if your Apollo could test for down pressure at the nut with the various headstock angles.
Looks like you're ready to start making a pedal steel. I'd love to have one with the low E tuned to the same 82hz as a guitar. Amazing fixture, love to see the data.
A pedal steel is too complicated for Ken Parker
There's a lot of debate in the guitar world where a Fender Strat style inline Headstock is better reversed to have the longer string length past the Nut on the Bass strings as opposed to the traditional style! Any thoughts on this Ken?
Lovely :D
Interesting- Was it a smooth linear difference of 2% from 4-80 degrees?
What I take away from this is that with only a 2% difference between 4 and 80 degrees (!), there is absolutely zero reason to argue, worry or further consider the differences between 12 degrees (classical guitar slotted headstock) and 15-17 degrees (Typical steel string guitar range) in building in regard to the feel of string tension, assuming the nut is slotted well with minimal friction.
Yet...-What would be interesting is if you did a *blind* test with the right hand on the strings between the 4 and 80 degrees- if you could consistently feel that 2% difference with the hand then that would be more interesting for builders and players. But as it is, 2% over 4-80 degrees doesn't mean much to me from an empirical standpoint.
Shouldn't you set the fixture on a surface plate for your most accurate measurements?
Was it the lab rats that recently created the replacement ribbon cables for the original Flys?
Based on the concept that "greater break angle = greater friction" at the nut (or saddle), it would seem that a system with a zero fret, guide pins instead of nut slots, straight string pull-through, and just enough break angle to keep the strings on the zero fret would result in minimum fretting and bending effort. Additional string above the nut or below the saddles should allow for additional elastic deformation, resulting in less effort for extreme bends. I actually did a build with no nut, a zero fret, and guide pins once - the Fender 12 build, a minimalist/experimental thing with a neck from a 1969 Fender Villager 12-string acoustic:
ua-cam.com/video/A-giuX43Bso/v-deo.html
However, I tend to use locknuts on most all my builds these days, as it factors everything above the nut line out of the tuning stability equation. The real trick would be to come up with a locknut that doesn't need an Allen wrench, so tuning would be almost as fast and easy as with a regular nut - perhaps an all-6-at-once camlock system. Sounds like a job for a machinist!
Additional after length can supposedly add overtones that may or may not be desirable. I've never found it to be an issue on any guitar personally. There are also claims that it has a positive effect on sustain. I have yet to look into that and suspect it's just BS: "bad science".
I once made a rig like this to test the effect of afterlength on tone. 2 strings, same gauge, one with 1" after-length, one with 11" after-length. No effect on tone. Perhaps somewhat easier fretting - thin strings and low action don't require much fretting effort to begin with. Longer after-length = less bending effort. I didn't test for differences in sustain. I was interested in using long after-lengths and vertical roller trees to route strings to ergonomic tuner locations on tail-tuner builds.
Does anyone make any 6-in-line "Gibson robot guitar" tuners?
Yup, the company that manufactured them for Gibson "Tronical Tune" still exists, and sells a variety of different versions for different headstocks etc.
So is the conclusion that the angle does make a difference but that it's insignificant to playability? 2% seems negligible.