Behringer XR18 Gain Staging and Signal Flow - Soundcheck Basics - X Air Series - Midas MR18
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- Опубліковано 1 сер 2024
- Tutorial for XR18 gain structure. Tips to understanding gain and its role in setup, soundcheck, and mixing on the Behringer XR18 and Midas MR18 and the X-Air series. Signal flow also addressed.
Gain staging and signal flow are some of the most important topics to understand and master for consistent band mixes. In live sound reinforcement, gain is literally the first step in your console that needs to be addressed when your stage signal inputs to the console.
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This is a sister video to Tech Tip #10 which was demonstrating the topic using an X32. This video covers the same material, but uses an XR18 and X-Air-Edit software.
There seems to be some misconceptions floating around about how to set the gain control on these digital consoles. Part of it is from misinformation filtering in from analog consoles and some general misunderstandings, and some of it is just a lack of information leading to confusion.
I addressed this in part in a section of the two 5 Mistakes Made By Behringer Users videos specifically for the X32 / M32 and another for the XR18 / MR18 ( both linked below). Someone exclusively searching for the topic of soundchecks or gain staging / preamp setting might not ever see those though.
Behringer XR18 Gain Settings:
When it comes to soundcheck, the gain control is really the starting point for your soundcheck. It's also important to have a basic understanding of signal flow and where that gain control falls in that signal flow path. That's what this video seeks to show and teach.
I make the point in the video several times that the ideal is to get your gain set properly at soundcheck so that you can leave it alone during the performance. I also explain why that is important and the basics of how signal flow factors into this. I also seek to show you that if you absolutely HAVE to adjust the gain during the show (such as it's heavily into clipping, or getting close), that you then understand what else is happening when you touch that control to fix that. That knowledge should help to minimize some typical problems that can develop when you don't realize the bigger picture, and to stop people who are learning the ropes from getting into the habit of constantly fiddling with the gain knobs once they've been set.
The info in this video is applicable to the X32 as well, but the mix examples shown are shown using a Behringer XR18 connected via X Air Edit software. That's also true of the "Five Mistakes..." videos below, with each showing examples on the relevant console, but the X32 video is a longer video and does go into more depth.
I also recommend watching the linked videos below for more information like this:
Five Typical Mistakes Made By Behringer XR18 Users ... And How To Avoid Them
• Five Typical Mistakes ...
5 Typical Mistakes Made By Behringer X32 Users... And Midas M32 Users... And How To Avoid Them
• 5 Typical Mistakes Mad...
Behringer XR18 / X Air Tutorials:
• Behringer XR18 Tutorials
Behringer X32 / Midas M32 Tutorials:
• Behringer X32 Tutorials
Alan's Live Production Tech Tips and Info:
• Alan's Sound Productio...
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Thanks Alan. Your video tutorials are absolutely outstanding.
Thanks!
If your looking to understand the XR18 UI... These videos are well produced and full of honest and useful audio information. Thank's Alan - Keep them coming!
Thanks!
I've learned so much from watching Alan's videos! As an owner of an XR18 - I've not only learned how to use the unit, but also use it to understand sound principles and best practises. Thanks Alan!!
Great to hear! Thanks!
I did a video specifically on setting the gain/soundcheck basics on the Behringer X32 / M32 and wanted to do the same for the XR18 / MR 18 / X-Air series..
This is a sister video to the X32/M32 version. Specifically edited with visual examples featuring the XR18 for the same reason: An XR18 user might not find or click on an X32 video, or might at least prefer seeing the information explained on the same GUI they're seeing when they mix.
I know some of this info was also in an earlier video series talking about typical mistakes that Behringer users sometimes make, but anyone not a subscriber and specifically searching Google or YT for this particular soundcheck/gain type info, wouldn't necessarily hit on that earlier video
The X32/M32 version of this video is at: ua-cam.com/video/7MJ3rfj7HNc/v-deo.html
If anyone has suggestions for future videos let me know here in the comments.
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5 Typical Mistakes Behringer XR18 and Midas MR18 Users Make:
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Great channel and great videos! New subscriber.
Thanks!!!
Wow! I can see this is really important, and I had no clue! Glad I stumbled here!
Thanks for watching and commenting! Glad to help. :)
@@AlanHamiltonAudio As a drummer with very little experience with even an analogue board this really helped me get an understanding of what's going on with this piece of gear. I'm thinking of selling my analog board once I get comfortable with this thing!
@@lanceh4653 Digital consoles these days have so much power and versatility, that it makes it hard to want to go back to analog once you get used to all of the power and flexibility... and all of the options.
On the gain change during performance point: it's worth checking out the 're-gain' feature In the aftermarket Mixing Station Pro. It resets faders, sends, compressor/gate thresholds and LR automatically when the gain is reset. Brill (but beware if you are recording as it will not reset DAW levels) .
thank you for your videos, they have helped a lot. I have a band and we do live gigs using IPAd and Xair app with an XR18. Several people have mentioned that the IPAD doesn't have numbers on the meters. my question is during sound check, when adjusting the Channel mic gain, what db level should the channel fader and Master(Main) fader be set?? I understand that the Vox meter is in DBFS. Do you know if the DB on the Channel fader/Bus faders is also DBFS or DB?
I don't have an iPad to check anything, and no way to cross-reference against X-Air Edit on PC... but that is what I'd do if I was you. Sometime when you have a chance to experiment, connect a laptop or Mac running X-Air Edit to the console and also connect via iPad running the app. Send some music, pink noise, or test tone to the mixer (pink noise, white noise, or test tone would be best since the signal would be constant). Bring the gain up on the input until the meter reaches -18dBFS. Now, look at the iPad and see where that translates to the iPad's input meters.
The faders are 'screened' in normal dB's with a unity mark and several dB of boost indicated. While I don't think those are technically indicative of anything as far as the meter goes, you can still use them as a reference (the input meters are beside the faders on the iPad app aren't they?). Since X-Air Edit will show you when the signal is hitting -18dBFS, you just need to make a mental note of what that corresponds to on the iPad and what that means you need to hit on that meter in relation to the fader screening.
I did something similar for Mixing Station on the Android, so you can see an example of what I'm talking about you doing for your iPad in the first part of this video where gain structure is discussed and I have added a section with this experiment for Mixing Station app:
ua-cam.com/video/xPsSPK6RKzU/v-deo.html
One point to note is that if you have set the levels for -18dbFS in soundcheck and set the monitor/effects and mains from this level and in the performance somebody turns up so they are way louder you WANT to turn down the gain so the level hits -18db because that will restore the balance to the full mix.
I've mentioned that elsewhere in videos, but there's a caveat there too: It depends on circumstances and just how much they turned up. If it's just a few dB it might go unnoticed in the grand scheme of things... until you bring the gain down... and suddenly you hear "the guitar went away!??!!!".
Assuming guitar in that scenario... because... But yeah, it could be anything. Did they turn up because they really did need to be louder onstage, or for ego?
So, yeah, resetting the gain will reset the original monitor balance. But it leaves open the question if anyone actually wanted the balance reset? Technically, you'd expect to get some signs from stage if they do. They might not say "hey, the guitar got louder" (although they could) but it might just be that when the guitar got louder, all of a sudden the vocalist wants more vocal, and the keys wants more keys, and the 2nd guitarist wants more of himself... So you have to use a bit of experience to sus out whether to address a slightly hotter input (if it's not threatening to clip) with a gain change, or just watch the stage to see if all of a sudden musicians are wanting monitor changes. Otherwise, it's sometimes best to leave well-enough alone and not second guess things too much and just use the fader to address FOH where you know you don't want more guitar (or whatever the now loud instrument is).
And if you do use the gain to reset the balance, you also need to consider the guitarist (or whoever) turned up for a reason so maybe THEIR monitor will need adjusted to give them more guitar.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio sure all true, that’s why I said “way” louder. Also what I find happening when I play is that the PA is cranked a lot louder in the performance than in soundcheck and things can get lost and it’s hard to know how to communicate what is wrong because the increased volume from the PA masks bass more than it does other parts of the spectrum.
Hey Alan, Vernon here again! Thanks again for another great tutorial. My topic has been mentioned below but the answer is yet unclear because you are not using the iPad app. I am using the iPad app and am hesitant to switch apps. Thanks to you, I'm getting a decent understanding of the XR18. So, the problem is there is no input meter on the input tab. We can adjust mic gain and USB gain and all the other things the X air edit app has, just no meter to see the -18 dbfs. How would you go about gain staging without an input meter? Thanks!!
Not having an iPad, I'm just not sure how the meters are scaled/intended to be read. One thing you could do is what I did in the XR18 Channel Walk-thru video ( ua-cam.com/video/xPsSPK6RKzU/v-deo.html ) where I had both X-Air Edit and Mixing Station connected and send a signal to the XR18 and compared the meters. Obviously, in your case you'd use the iPad and X-Air app instead of Mixing Station... along with X-Air Edit. You can download a white noise or pink noise signal. Or a 1K tone for that matter. Or just play a music track as your source, but the consistency of a dedicated test signal makes it easier to exactly compare the meters. So... just compare where the iPad meters are when X-Edit hits -18dFS. And go ahead and bring the signal up to get a feel for other points along the way too. You might also make sure when you hit clip on X-Air Edit meters that the iPad app is showing clip too. Or whether it's faster or slower to show clip. Just so you know.
So do you set the channel faders and master fader to unity point first, then use the gain control to set the input levels to -18dbfs? What about after that in order to balance the levels of each instrument, is that when you can move the channel faders? And for setting the output volume of the main (active) PA speakers and powered monitors, do you leave the master fader on the XR18 at unity point and adjust the volume level from the speakers and monitors?
I leave the channel faders off... but do put the main/master at unity. I set the gain on the channel, then bring the channel up while listening to the source as I bring the fader up (slowly). If the channel fader can't reach unity without being SCREAMING loud then that tells me the system has gain issues AFTER the console. If it's my system I address those issues if there is time. If it's not my system and/or there's no time to troubleshoot, then I reduce the master fader so that the mix will be at an acceptable level with the channel faders 'around' unity.
The actual mix will dictate exactly where the channel faders need to be, but most things will be at or near unity when the gain structure is correct. That doesn't mean all faders perfectly in line at unity, but likely within a few dB either side of unity.
Now... that said... it could be the room/stage is small and stage volume so loud that not much of a channel is needed in the house (like say a screaming loud guitar amp onstage)... So the above isn't necessarily talking about that scenario. But vocals are always a good source to test things by first, as is an MP3 or WAV player... things where stage volume doesn't mask anything.
If the situation is such that with the channel faders at unity, and the master at unity, then there's not enough level in the system... That's still telling you that there's a problem somewhere. And again after the console (unless the console has a problem). If the meters in the console are right (and the console is operating properly), then proper input gain, channel fader at unity, master at unity should mean there's plenty of output available at the PA if it is gained properly itself. And working properly.
All of this is a clue that something is wrong that needs fixed when you set your gains this way. It makes the meters actually consistent and relevant.
Let the meters in the system guide you to the problem. Where is the signal right... and where is it not right as you follow the signal flow chain?
All of this is not to say the master fader has to always ride at unity either... But it should be AROUND unity in normal circumstances. And you should be able to start the system check with it there. Maybe the gig itself calls for the master fader to be pulled back 3-5dB for early in the night, when things are slows, so you haven't put all your eggs in that one basket to bring things up when things start hopping.
I would like a comparison on the gain staging in the ipad app vs pc vs android, i have an ipad mini 1(idk if this is corrected in the newer versions) and the levels reporting are wrong compared with the pc
I will have to get with someone with an iPad and see if I can do that.
When you say set gain to -18db on "input meter" (at @ 5:00 min) are you talking about the left meter labeled "Vox" where your red arrow points, or the "Analog input" that also says "Mic Gain" where you are making the gain adjustment? They appear to be two different scales.
I don't think you meant the 5min mark since the video is ending there so I'm not 100% sure if I see what it is you're talking about for sure. If you look at the 1:39 mark, the meter we're concerned about is the meter on the left. The point where I'm making the adjustment isn't a meter, it is the mic/gain control and it's just showing you the the +/- adjustments that the gain control is making. It's just giving you a visual reference to where the gain control is set relevant to the numbers on the scale. It's showing you the exact same thing the fader cap is showing you on that gain control. It's just an added visual, not a meter.
OTOH, if you're talking about the meter on the right, then it's an AFL meter. The meter on the left is the input meter and PFL (pre fader), and the meter on the right is AFL (after fader). So that meter on the right changes with the channel fader adjustments... though technically, if you change the gain control after you bring the fader up then the AFL meter will reflect that too, since it includes whatever you do with the gain pre-fader. Pre fader-fader-after fader.
But for setting input gain we're just concerned with the far left meter in this case. That's our first stage.
And FWIW, I'm talking about the signal averaging -18dBFS on the input. It can peak above it. Even +3 to +6dB. I'm not saying to never let it go over -18dBFS.
The main thing is, there's a misconception that it needs to be adjusted all the way to 0dBFS or just under the red, as you would do with an analog console. But we're looking at two entirely different types of metering. Roughly, -18dBFS IS 0dB on an analog console's meter.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Yes, it was at 1:39 mark. I get it now. The left meter is what we're aiming for to be around -18db. I noticed my electric guitar channel was really hot on the FOH in a church setting. I'm using a Helix digital processor as my amp direct into the XAir-18. I'm sending a Mic level signal into the XAir and had a hunch the gain was too high. Asked the sound tech to check it and it was almost at unity gain! Told him to bring it down to -15db. I'll check that and all the gain settings again and make sure we're setting everything up to about -18db. Thanks again for these helpful videos.
Can you do a video using xair app not the edit version thanks in advance
I have XR18 and still Confused, what is setting for GAIN (-18?) and what is setting for FADER/SLIDERS (0) ? And then adjust faders in sound check?
You should adjust the gain control so the channel input meter reads -18dBFS (or the Solo/PFL meter when the channel is soloed). This is super simple on the X-Air Edit software, but the iPad doesn't give you an easy to see scale.
This video dives in deeper so it might help:
ua-cam.com/video/xPsSPK6RKzU/v-deo.html
Any tips for gain/fader adjustment when recording with the XR18 into reaper in regards to getting ideal wavelengths?
I always use the 'analog' tap point on the USB sends (red ring), so faders don't matter. It's just the gain control that matters. Everything else I'll do in post.
I always use -18dBFS for the reference level. That's the average, not the peak. I'll allow it to peak above that. IOW, if I see a -15dBFS or even -12dBFS signal peak on the channel meter that isn't necessarily going to cause me to readjust the gain if it's typically hitting (averaging) around -18dBFS.
That seems to work well.
Here's the XR18 to Reaper video on the channel:
ua-cam.com/video/xYmJGyroVe0/v-deo.html
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Thanks mate really appreciate it, I'll definitely take all this into account from now on:)
Alan - I see you have had may questions regarding the iPad not showing the level numbers when checking the gain - I solely use the iPad - would you say that when doing sound check for each input, as long as they are just barely hitting the "white" signal bars, that is where you want to be, approximately? That's how I have been determining how to adjust my gain levels. Thanks -
If I had an iPad I'd do like I did in the channel walk-thru video where I compared X-Air Edit meters to Mixing Station on the Android, and used a tone so viewers could audibly hear the clip point as well as watch the meters and see how they compared.
But I don't have an iPad :(
Why?@@AlanHamiltonAudio
Just wondering, I can't get and dB numbers on my meters on the iPad app, just block meters. Are accurate dB numbers only in the X air edit on pc?
I don't have an iPad to test. You can get Mixing Station for the iPad, but if you're already used to the Behringer version of the iPad app that probably doesn't help.
Edit: I just realized this comment was under the Gain video and not the video I just posted today which was talking about meter differences between X-Air Edit and Mixing Station. DOH! So you could even be using Mixing Station for the iPad for all I know... I did a test in the new video comparing metering between the two platforms:
ua-cam.com/video/xPsSPK6RKzU/v-deo.html
I'm set at 18dbxx, but its real low level when I record into a daw. Like pretty hard to see the recorded wave visually. Any idea on matching levels when recording to daws?
Make sure you're setting it to average -18dBFS and not peak at -18dBFS. It can peak higher. You don't have to be too conservative, as long as you leave yourself plenty of headroom for the peaks not to hit zero.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio ahh right gotcha , will check that cheers 🍻
When gain staging a mixer connected to my dslr camera, do I follow your process while connected to the camera viewing my camera signal meter?
Or do I gain stage the mixer first then connect it to the camera?
Thanks for your time!
Gain stage the mixer first, then the camera separately.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio thank you 🙏🏿!
I just subscribe to your channel!
@@joonajks Thanks! :)
Good day sir!
I'm trying build a system and of course portabilty and mobility is one concern but i'm not fan of powered boxes, scared of being wet outdoor events. I don't wan't to have a lot of analog gear for processing. I just wan't to know if the XR18 covers some of them:
graphic EQ, compressor, digital effects, delay, reverb, drive rack abilities.
Thank you and god bless, stay safe.
The XR18 is loaded with processing. You have parametric EQ's on every output (6 XLR Aux outs and 2 main outs (Left and right). You can also change those to graphic EQ's that are also built in.
Each output also has a compressor built into it.
Each preamp input has a compressor, gate, and parametric EQ built in.
All of this is done without using any of the slots in the built in FX rack. It has 4 stereo slots for built in FX. Several different reverbs, chorus, and delay are available to choose from for those 4 slots and 4 dedicated busses for FX sends. There are also some vintage compressor emulations you can put into 1 or more of those 4 slots and insert them somewhere in your signal, and several other type of FX. Reverbs and delays are the popular choices for the 4 FX sends.
The only thing it doesn't have is a crossover or any output delays for time alignment of speakers.
Amazon Link: amzn.to/38AijGH
The X32 besides having more channels and outputs, and a bigger built in FX rack, adds matrixes, and DOES have crossover filters built in, and you can delay the outputs for speaker time alignment.
Amazon Link: amzn.to/3siWlj0
@@AlanHamiltonAudio wow thank you, there's a lot of information from user than what the website can offer. Thank you very much sir. And your videos are very informative. Keep it up and god bless.
@@prodj.mixapeofficial6431 Thanks!!
Does that mean I’ll have to adjust gain levels of each input at every venue ? Or levels are supposed to be set only just once and left alone?
Same band but different venue likely means many things will be at least roughly the same. If one venue is tiny and one is huge, and the band self-adjusts, then maybe the guitar player runs his amp half as loud in that smaller room, and the drummer uses lighter sticks and/or hits softer... So, in that case, the gains would definitely change.
But a lot of bands run the same stage volume with little change regardless of venue, so the gains would stay the same.
A quick look at the input meters would tell you that though. And using a consistent setting on the meters means that if that stuff does change, and you account for it on the gain, it'll pull everything else back into the window of your baseline mix and settings for that band.
If the band changes... or musicians change within the band... all bets are off.
Hi Alan, used my new XR18 tonight at a band gig, got mostly good sound and no issues overall. One thing i did find though when setting gain levels for the kick drum is that in the Config section of the channel, the gain control went from being 'normal' to having no effect on the overall gain level of the kick drum, almost like it either added a pad to the input or it changed it to a line level source. Either way to get the kick drum audible enough, I had to boost the fader right up. It worked but wasnt as good as i know my PA is capable of. Any ideas on why the gain control 'switched'? It also did on my guitar amp channel which was mic'd up with an SM57. Any feedback or guidance appreciated!
That's pretty odd. There's never been any switching on the gain to automatically enter a pad or or automated gain freeze or anything like that. I assume since yours is new it's a V2 where something might be different... But nobody has mentioned this issue that I've seen on any forums/groups.
I'm trying to think of something you might've had engaged that would've made it act that way and I'm drawing a blank. The only thing I wonder about is AUTOMIX... You didn't have Automix engaged did you? I'm still not sure it would behave like you described, but it's nothing that I would've ever dealt with either since I've only used automix for conferences.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio thanks for the reply! I thought it might be the automix being engaged but definitely not that.
It's very odd. For example, the vocal mics I was able to set gain as you'd expect for each mic i.e. +23.5db for mine, but when setting the gain on the kick drum, it would look normal then all of a sudden the absolute max gain you can set is +20db but whether I left it at 0 or +20db it made no difference to the signal level........,....same with my guitar amp with the SM57. The result was that the faders for those channels were pushed up to +10 just to get some volume through the front of house.
I'll hook it up today to my laptop a d see if there are any settings I can find or if a firmware update is required.
Very odd and I can't find anything online to indicate whether it's engaging a pad or something by itself!
@@davidwicksmusic This is very weird. Report back on what you figure out. Did you try switching the kick to a different channel to see if it's something channel related?
I suppose it's worth looking into if you were maybe kicked offline and in demo mode or something temporarily and weren't actually controlling the mixer for a bit. That doesn't seem likely, but when something odd happens it's hard to know where to start looking.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio good news Alan! I found online that around a week ago Behringer released a new firmware and Android app update for the newest versions of the XR18. I installed the firmware, new app and went to my gig for tonight. All worked perfectly and I couldn't be happier with the desk now.
Behringer mentions somewhere in the update logs that the new V2 versions of the XR18 use different chips or components to the old ones which caused various bugs, hence the updates being required! Happy days all around, gotta say this thing is so simple and easy to use and has already cut down on setup and sound checking time.
Appreciate your replies and assistance! Hopefully we can pass on our learnings to any one else that might have the same issues! Cheers
Alan, Why are you running Phantom power on that? Thanks!
IIRC I was using a condenser mic on that video for the demo for the vocal channel settings. And that would need 48V (Rode NT1 mic). And the kick was a sample that played thru a Radial J48 DI into the console and the J48 needed phantom.
I don't recall if I did any other channel demos, but if they were samples, then they were tracked and rendered, and then copied to my WAV player and played back thru it... and into the J48 into the XR18.
I could've connected direct to the Aux ins for the samples but I wanted to keep the channels/instruments accurate with a normal console layout,
I sometimes use an SM91 or Beta 91 in live kicks and either of those mics need phantom too... But that's not what I did here. I just used the sampled drums.
It’s ok to have the gain on the channel cranked to 30 or 40 to get nice -18 levels?
Yes... For a typical singer with an SM58, 30dB is probably (or could be even) a bit low. Definitely close though. Of course every singer and mic is a little different... But if I saw 32dB of gain on a vocal channel with an SM58, that would seem perfectly reasonable. 40 is probably high, but that would depend on the singer. If the singer doesn't belt, then a few dB more gain is going to be called for.
a question friend ... why do you put the kit on channel 1 if it is high impedance? (Hi-z)
I always use DI boxes for Keys, bass, and acoustic no matter what console I'm using. And I use a traditional input list patch:
Kick, Sn, Hat, T1, T2, T3, OHSR, OHSL, Bass, Kez, Gtr SR, Gtr SL, Vocal SR, Vocal C, Vocal SL, Vocal DR (or some variation of that adding/removing whatever is needed in each section). So, the Hi Z inputs on 1 and 2 don't gain me anything for that reason.
As a rule of thumb, you should only use about a 20-25' instrument cable on those channels (longer = more susceptible to noise for one thing)... For a home studio that can work if the X-Air is right there in the room and you might not even need 10'-15'. For a small stage, where the X-Air can be put close to the musician it can work. But for larger stages and larger setups I wouldn't be using those anyway because those cables would be longer than that. ...And it would mean not using a standard stage patch, so that would be a second strike.
But, there's nothing wrong with using those for Hi Z inputs if you're not trying to follow a standard physical stage patch, and the cable length is OK.
For me though, it's just as easy to do things consistently and just use a DI where I have a Hi-Z instrument to connect and then connect it to wherever the stage patch puts it. And most of the time, I wouldn't be able to use the Hi-Z inputs onstage anyway, because I'd need longer cables than 25' for them.
It's just easier, and more efficient, to drop a labelled DI line at the musician's wedge position so he/she can drop a short instrument cable to it for their acoustic guitar, keys, bass, etc...
By the way... Good question!
@@AlanHamiltonAudio
Thank you very much friend
I think this video was lacking on the signal flow part. Set and forget nature of the gain is super important, but the signal flow was only briefly shown on one picture at 2:56, and even then the voiceover said "and then in some order, hits the comps, gates and your sends". ... but which order? Is the comp always there before everything? What's the difference between post-EQ and pre-fader in XR18/MR18? Can you route it differently? etc.
There was a chart shown in the video showing the signal flow. On the X32 you can change where the inserted FX are, while on the XR18 it is fixed. So the X32 version of the video is where the "in some order" comes from since the narration is mainly covering both topics. But the chart shows the flow, and I made the signal flow chart one of the free DL's on my Patreon page. You don't have to be a Patreon member to download the PDF/chart.
I think this link takes you directly to it:
www.patreon.com/posts/51778534
Otherwise, just go to the Patreon Page ( www.patreon.com/AlanHamiltonAudio )
and search for "free" in the Posts section and you should find it there.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Thank you very much for this addition! Somehow this is the information you can't really seem to find anywhere when doing product comparisons.
@@JoonasD6 Thanks! Glad to help!
Hallo, hey arent Herr dB scales on Thea iPad App?
I don't have an iPad so I'm not sure how to match the scale since they neglected to properly mark things in the app on the main view.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio thank you, sorry for auto correction mistakes 😊
At 1:00+- (showing an Input screen), what is the scale all the way to the right? It looks exactly like the dbfs scale on the left, but when the signal appears it's about 5 units lower on the right-side scale versus the left-side scale.
That meter is the AFL meter (After Fader Listen...)... It's showing the signal AFTER the fader.... In a gig situation, in soundcheck, the fader would be down until the gain is set. So the meter would be off. Then, after gain is set, as the fader is brought up, the AFL meter comes up with it.
As the fader comes up, that meter is showing what you're listening to, in the house (and headphones if monitoring the house mix) as far as channel level goes.
If you do have to tweak the gain after the show is rolling, BOTH meters will change with the gain change since EVERYTHING is 'after' the input gain (preamp).
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Thanks so much! I'd like to ask a follow-up question if I may: I am perpetually confused by what I perceive to be the two main and competing strategies of gain-staging: (1) setting channel input gains at whatever levels that allow the channel faders to be close to "0" in order to give the sound person the most fader flexibility, and (2) setting channel input gains at -18dbfs, which would (I think) result in some channel faders not being near 0 (they could be much higher or lower, and thus have less flexibility). Are these competing strategies? Am I right that you advocate the "gains at -18" strategy? Personally, I think enough people share my confusion that a brief video explanation would be popular. Thanks for all you've done here!
@@briangray4640 Setting the fader at unity and then bringing the gain up is a leftover archaic practice from the 60's and early 70's... that kind of morphed its way into the 80's. But hasn't actually been relevant for decades now. It works, kind of, with several pitfalls and no actual benefits. More on this in a bit.
The purpose of the gain control is to optimize input levels into the console. And for decades now, we have had meter bridges and/or SOLO/PFL buttons and meters to accurately and with repeatability, set the input gains.
Now, there are some strategies as far as how aggressive or conservative some people might want to be with the gains. And there is absolutely NOT a 'perfect' gain setting. Simply, there's an acceptable window where the gain should reside.
Back in the 60's and 70's metering wasn't as detailed as it is now. And especially at the club level of PAs where maybe you got a clip light on the channels and a signal light. No other meters. But by the 80's even that had changed.
Setting the faders at unity and then bringing the gain up begs the question, why even have faders if the goal is a straight line?
Or if the goal is to have the faders in the vicinity of unity, where there's better fader resolution.... well... on a properly gain staged PA, that's where they'll end up anyway.
In fact, once you use meters to set the gain, and use a consistent workflow and repeatable and expected results, then when you start bringing the channel fader up (or FX sends or monitor sends) they should all fall into 'normal' ranges that you're used to and expect. Example: If your input gain is set properly and you start bringing the channel fader up (and your master fader is at unity as a starting point) then it SHOULD be able to get to unity without being screaming loud, nor incredibly quiet, and certainly not blasting into feedback. And you should also be able to push it above unity and it maybe get 'too' loud... but not STUPID loud.
If not, then you absolutely know the system gain SOMEWHERE is whacked. Something in the signal chain is 'wrong'. It could be the opposite where the channel at fader unity is not nearly loud enough. Either way, there's something wrong in the signal chain. And one thing you know immediately is your input gain is correct. Your meter tells you that.
You can check your console routing, and your output meters... and if all is normal... then you KNOW the PA you're patching into is improperly gained. If it's your own rig, you fix that at the processor/amps/speakers. If it's a rig that you are patching into and you're locked out of those settings, then use your master fader (and master monitor faders if needed) to get the console behaving normally with normal gain staging WITHIN he console.
That works really well if the problem is the system is gained way too hot. If it's the opposite and the system is not getting loud enough when you get the channel fader to unity, and we're not just talking a few dB, then it's a more serious problem that probably needs addressed at the system level. And it could be the system is simply too small for the task. "Not enough rig for the gig". Or could be a bad cable, blown speakers, bad amp(s), etc...
But regardless, both of these situations will immediately present themselves to you in obvious ways IF you're using modern console gain structure practices.
Besides all of this, repeatable gain settings/levels in the console means that gate and comp threshold settings mean something. You can actually rough those settings in because they actually allow for baselines that repeat. The same goes for any monitor sends, or FX sends, or stream sends, etc. And when you're on your own rig, and rigs you trust to be properly gained, you can know, roughly, where those settings should fall. Which means you can instantly recognize a problem if you suddenly need to dial in way more monitor for your singer (for example).
Also, you know roughly how much gain a vocal, or snare, or guitar will need and can instantly recognize something is way too hot or way too weak coming into the console. You don't just set the input gain in some odd place and say "oh well"... You investigate to figure out what is wrong. Maybe a mic has went bad. Or a cable is one-legged. Or the bass player accidentally switched his built-in DI output to POST Pre amp when he normally gives it to you PRE pre amp.
In the case of a bad mic or cable, if you just crank the gain to get the level to where you 'need' it and don't recognize it as a problem because you don't use your meters... that 'bad' cable or mic could suddenly reconnect and now you screaming feedback or a big POP and the potential to blow some speakers. Or at least hurt some ears.
Usually, the people you see advocating for setting the faders at unity and then bringing the gains up, are probably up there in age, never really toured or did production full time... or else someone that 'learned' that technique from someone like that. And like I said, it 'can' work... it's not efficient. It has pitfalls. It's not ideal. But if that's how someone's always done it, they may not realize there's a better way, or how many workarounds they've incorporated to utilize this method. On their own system, thru trial and error they've probably got the system gained to a point it's going to end up with the same gain settings anyway. But it's happening randomly. And besides all of that.... old habits die hard.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Thank you!
How will I know if my meter is full scale? Anybody knows? I’m using Allen Heath Qu24 and always gain staging at zero / near zero.. I tried at -6db but the audio was too weak.
I don't have an AH Qu24 but is 0 the top of the scale on the input meter? That's a good sign you're looking at dBFS if zero is the top of the scale.
Where is the signal too weak for -6? Assuming we're talking dBFS that should be pretty hot. If you've setup a sound system around a console where the inputs are going to be running at close to zero, then just fixing the gain structure at the start of the chain (the input) will leave you with troubles downstream if you don't address that area as well.
OTOH, if the meter keeps on going above 0dB... +3, +6, +18, +28 then that would indicate you have headroom above 0. So in that case, I'd be looking at zero as my reference and it sounds like -6dB would be running too conservative.
Let me see if I can find a manual for the QU24 and have an actual answer rather than just guessing on the possibilities.
Ok... they appear not to be dBFS on the AH QU24. 0dB is not the top of the scale. The channel's have limited metering, and even those don't peak at 0dB by their scale. They have a clip or peak light above that.
Then in the meter section, it's a meter with more resolution, and once again, 0 is not the peak. You have several dB above that before clip (or running out of room in the digital bucket).
Sooooo... your -6dB would be running too cool. I'd be averaging close to 0 and letting it peak above zero, just like an analog console.
This video has some good information, and the 2min :55 mark is especially relevant:
ua-cam.com/video/Q9P-Om8UBe4/v-deo.html
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Wow, thanks so much for checking it out, truly appreciate it. Noted and thanks for sharing your insight about this issue. I’m new to mixing and these info will help me in my growth.
@@onzkicg No problem! Glad I could help! :)
how to use the audio interface in the behringer xr18..Thanks, Godbless
what is the exact gain volume for a vocal microphone in xr18 specially when you use a cheap microphone?Godbless
It's really hard to say. Just use the meters and let the meters guide you.
What are the setings for an E-drum?
It kind of depends on whether the drum sound is a sample that is more of a raw drum sound or a processed sound... Or something replicating a Simmons type sound.
If it's a drum sample processed or raw sounding, it probably doesn't need as much treatment as a real drum would. It's probably already gated so gates might not be needed at all. It's probably been limited in dynamic range so compression might not need to be added. And either of those things can probably be applied lightly. And for the most part, gates these days are used to remove ambient sounds from around the drum mics, not so much to shorten the sound of the drum. A well tuned drum rarely 'needs' gating to manipulate the decay versus just to make sure when the drum isn't being played, other sounds aren't getting into the mic's channel. And the gate takes care of that.
But for an e-drum, there is no mic... So it's a pretty good chance there's no 'have to' reason to gate any of the e-drums.
So then it just turns into treating them like real drums on the EQ, with the caveat they might already have some processing done to them so that they already sound close to what you're shooting for with EQ anyway. IOW, the same EQ principles can apply as acoustic drums, but less of it. Less aggressive EQ.
Might look at this playlist:
ua-cam.com/play/PLWtgwSNlxTjMsX8H1K87UcAP17zYSZqsT.html