After the "reproductive rights" skip; Paul is more or less talking about [non-believers/atheists]. If you are interested I think Brandon from Mindshift & Derek from MythVision if you want to get a better academic/scholarly understanding from "outside/secular voices". Mindshift: - www.youtube.com/@MindShift-Brandon MythVision: - www.youtube.com/@MythVisionPodcast
It bugs me to no end that Paul keeps saying things are “clear” even after Tim so carefully explains why they are not. Theology isn’t clear but what is clear is that Paul isn’t listening
To be fair, looking at it through Paul’s perspective, admitting that the Bible has many different interpretations basically chips away at his strict extreme fundamentalist beliefs. He has to keep up the cognitive dissonance otherwise he’d have to admit his beliefs might not necessarily be the only way
@@lindseystein9676sadly there is a level of truth in that. And I think it is a toxic impact of literalism, and inerrancy, which developed only mid 1800s as a reaction to scholars looking at the dating and authorship of the texts (Higher Criticism). The claim to have a totally clear, totally literal interpretation of the Bible leads people into false dichotomies. Adam and Eve must be real, if not then nothing in NT can be. This is what provokes people trying to challenge science and clIam a young earth and a flood despite all the evidence. Those growing up in this belief system have to either reject most of science or reject their faith. The theology they are taught creates these divides. Whereas without Biblotry the depth of poetry, or exploring origins, of giving space for the humanity of the authors and their skills with literary devices we are less used to today, that to me gives greater depth. And is a faith that can embrace the exploration of creation in all it's wonders.
The way that Paul says the word “sexual” makes me want to peel my skin off. It’s SOOOO TELLING about his mindset and maturity around human sexuality. Tim was 100% correct in saying that Evangelicals are obsessed with sex. And the fact that P&M were okay with nonconsenual ejaculation in the abortion discussion just shows that their whole “biblical” view is just misogyny and hate.
I won't lie, I'm happy that a public figure actually called out the weird evangelical obsession with sex rather than try to debate them on it or debunk them. Not to say the latter two things are a complete waste of time, but I think we need more people pointing out how weird it is these people are obsessed with sex.
Rule of thumb I've developed thanks to Paul; never take advice about relationships from a guy who can only talk about sex like a giddy 12 year old who found his dad's stash of skin mags.
Sex education also reduces the amount of Sexual abuse that happens as well. If you teach kids what sex is and what abuse is, it's a lot more difficult for people to just get away with it. And with how prevalent sexual abuse is within religion,you would think people would want to prevent that from happening . But no. Instead they continue to advocate for no sex education and not even talking about sex until you get engaged or married. This is a recipe for disaster.
I know, it's a vicious cycle, too. Kids are taught to not talk about their body parts, that they should be ashamed to talk about it, and have no one to turn to. Some will think it's normal, and continue the cycle of abuse.
Ya, lack of sex education leads to thinking like Morgan has - where she scoffs at the idea of deciding to have sex and saying no to being ejaculated in. They have no idea what consent means and it’s scary.
I'm so passionate about this. It baffles me when the people in my life who are the most pro-life and activly fight human trafficking can't seem to understand how sex education is important!
Paul: I want to talk to other types of Christians to bridge gaps and reconcile our differences! Another type of Christian: Awesome! Here are some amazing resources that have broadened my understanding of this ancient scripture in a modern context :) Paul: *ignores everything bc it’s too complicated and he just wishes it was more straightforward :(((*
Paul has got to be the single most judgmental person I’ve ever seen. He is so preoccupied with “loving” sinners (telling them they’re going to hell) instead of loving people and following the things Jesus stressed. Who is he to say who is a Christian and who isn’t? It’s beyond bizarre!
I have never seen Paul & Morgan use their platform to encourage anyone to actually do good in the world - help the poor, feed the hungry, care for the underprivileged - it's all about them feeling superior to everyone who isn't exactly like them. It's gross.
@@graspingbeauty This. They’re unconcerned with serving other people and doing good in the world. Instead, Paul and Morgan want a rule book in order to feel superior and sure of their salvation because they’ve adhered to their arbitrary rules.
Notice how paul never asks someone a question framing it as "as a Christian, what do you think about x y z" -- he always says "as someone who considers themselves a Christian, what do you think about x y z" I think that's so telling of his perspective of other peoples' faith and not seeing it as genuine.
Paul doesn’t argue in good faith and he has a really annoying habit of generalizing about someone else makes a point funny how he always says “it’s clear at least to me” like scholars haven’t been arguing over translations for centuries
That's what Paul said about B in a live after the bethy/dav/fundie Friday's thing. "Oh I asked in the comments if they could point me to a solid Christian. And they suggested this girl who CONSIDERS HERSELF a Christian". Made me so mad
I was just coming to say this same thing! It’s extremely obvious that he is only here to disparage Tim, to make himself feel like the better and smarter person.
Dude, in P&M's response video Paul mentioned "another atheist youtuber" and then corrected himself to clarify that Tim isn't an atheist 😑 he considers progressive Christian's and atheists in the same camp
My guess: Paul doesn’t think it’s fair for people that didn’t suffer the way he thinks Christians should for their reward of salvation. Anyone getting to live life authentically and happily on earth and still getting redemption in the afterlife means that they got something he didn’t. And Paul strikes me as exactly the type of privileged white man that doesn’t think anyone should get an advantage that he didn’t get first and better.
Paul needs to mind his own business. If you're so worried that certain people are going to a magical place called "hell," then it says more about you than it does about the person being judged.
Jesus has a parable about this where people who were hired for manual labor in the morning, afternoon and at the end of the day were all given the same about of money. The morning guys were angry but the land owner says it’s not for them to be angry what he does with his money. But I know in fundie circles they are somehow the heroes of all the parables
B, your (very correct!) reaction to the sexual assault scenario meant you missed the worst part-- Morgan *laughing* about it and *blaming* the woman for sleeping with an assaulter
It’s so crazy they started this whole series, but are both so clearly unwilling to consider the other person’s perspective or frankly any sort of evidence that contradicts their current thoughts. Baffling. They really are so arrogant to sit on Tim’s couch and call him not a christian after that whole disclaimer.
My thoughts exactly. Their approach and attitude towards these conversations proves to me that they’re doing the series solely as a cash/views grab instead of trying to listen & learn
Unfortunately they tend to start these series but refuse to listen or understand others thoughts unless they're actually friends of theirs. They really want to make money and be supported by anything but themselves like an actual job.
As an atheist, Tim has actually made me curious about the bible lol not for faith reasons but for historic book reasons. So many "classic novels" we know are just based on like one interpretation/translation and the actual meaning could be lost. Paul was definetly pathetic with his "gotcha" attempts, he should be grateful Tim didn't ask any hardball questions back. Also it's so pathetic they call it Paul and Morgan lol it's the Paul show and Morgan is the laugh track.
Religious study is fascinating, ngl. I'd suggest looking into it if you are interested. There's a ton of interesting historical and cultural context that can be found in studying the bible, as well as other religions around the world. I've been an atheist for a long time but that definitely hasn't stopped me from coming to videos like these, as well as books and articles written by religious scholars, to broaden my understanding. It's just a lot of fun to see what motivated people back then to believe the things they believed and write the things they wrote.
@@Coastpsych_fi99 a lot of academics are Christians too, which is fascinating to me! (Apparently a lot of Presbyterian ministers are also academics, but maybe there's something to that, since I grew up in the Presbyterian church lol). Just goes to show that you don't have to stubbornly deny historical context and scholarly opinions to be a Christian. And it makes people like Paul look all the more ridiculous for writing off other people's beliefs based on a single disagreement.
@@bulletsandbracelets4140here in Germany every pastor has to have a university degree. You also need to learn Hebrew and Greek to read the original texts.
I'm an atheist, and I love your content. I totally respect your objectivity, being unbiased, and your active push against all things fallacious. I feel like your desire is to deeply understand and that that understanding can only bolster what you believe. I would agree! You're very logical, rational, and realist-y.
Did Morgan literally say “that’s on you for having sex with man that doesn’t pull out” about unwanted pregnancies?!? No blame on the man committing sexual assault?? I listened back multiple times because I wanted to be wrong but that really is what she said… I have no words
The 29ish minute mark was painful. Paul is so narrow focused that he completely lost sight of what was happening there. In Paul’s mind, he will always be right because of his own interpretation, BUT on the other hand he can’t give the same respect to others. Like wow.
The 29 minute mark is PAINFUL. Kudos to Tim for being mature and professional. I don’t know how he did it. I’m not even Christian and I wanted to start yelling at Paul.
Man I was feeling so fired up listening to Paul talk about abortion and sex ed. It is one of those topics I personally feel so strongly about. I am atheist, have six kids myself with my husband, and am absolutely pro choice. Just because I wouldn’t make that choice for me, doesn’t mean I have the rights to make it for anyone else. The worst thing is not being born, which I think is where people get so hung up. Imagine being born to abusive, drug addicted parents. I would argue SA, physical violence, drugs, etc are much worse for a child to have to live through than an abortion at 8 weeks. And Paul talking about sex ed being icky especially being taught in schools…his response is exactly why there needs to be thorough education in schools. Parents like Paul and Morgan will not be giving their kids the facts, the options or access to contraception. They are going to preach abstinence, if they talk about it at all. And it’s proven that approach does not help prevent pregnancy. Even many public schools only teach abstinence, it’s not acceptable - take the religious aspect out of it. It’s doing no one any good.
Regarding Tim's response to the question about false teaching -- I think Tim answered the way he did because Paul framed the question as an issue of obedience to scripture, and Tim's main message throughout the conversation had been learning how to deal with scripture in a responsible way. And after being bombarded with Paul constantly repeating the same tired nonsense of "clear biblical teaching" for most of a day, Tim must have been mentally exhausted. So he reverted back to the same kind of thing he'd been trying to communicate the whole time. I'm glad that Paul & Morgan finally got a chance to hear someone say this kind of thing at length, but I also wish the conversation could have probed more into the underlying reasons for Tim & Paul's incompatible methods for reading the bible, not just the conclusions they come to. It's as if Paul is incapable of understanding what it means to say "scripture must be interpreted"; he lacks the education and self-reflection that would be needed. Plus he seems to carry an unstated assumption that every important question MUST have a clear black & white answer without ambiguity, and if an answer IS ambiguous, that must be a sign of lack of faith. And he thinks his own rigidity is a sign of his own strong faith. Maddening!
I cannot believe Paul wouldn't affirm Tim as a Christian. If you believe Jesus is your savior and try to follow his teachings, doesn't that make you Christian?. You can have different thoughts and interpretations, but I don't believe a fundamentalist is any more or less Christian than a Catholic or a Protestant. He's just so judgemental.
My thoughts exactly. I know Tim asked Paul the question so I can’t blame him for answering it but I just feel like it’s no one’s place to make that judgement on anyone else.
I think they go even further than the hedging about if he is a Christian in the closing. The whole premise of the series is about “building unity in Christ” but they have end slides that urge their watchers to consider that some “doctrinal differences” may be too significant to be considered a “brother or sister in Christ.”
“because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Romans 10:9 ESV I don’t see how it can be made simpler. Tim clearly fits Paul the apostle’s definition of what it means to be saved. I’m not sure how Paul and Morgan have the authority to call it otherwise.
I wish they hadn't cut the political conversations, because I feel they're really the climax of their convos, they're where there would be an actual chance to see Paul maybe question some positions of his.
Same here! They got pretty political with their conversation with Josh so I’m not sure why they cut them out of this one. I saw Morgan say she made the call bc Tim was “emotional” and she didn’t think it was a good look for him but if that was the case, she could have checked in with him shown him some of the footage and asked if he was comfortable with them including it.
@@BHaney and Tim himself did a reaction and said he wishes they HADN'T cut political convos, so... And idk why ppl see getting emotional/passionate as being such a problem. I like it when ppl show that it all genuinely matters to them.
Because they subscribe to toxic masculinity...so a crying man caring and having empathy for other people that he can't even identify as? That's "not a good look". I think it's nonsense...my opinion is that the political conversations made Paul look uneducated on facts about the topics and foolish...thats why it was left out. Couldn't show him get schooled by a person they don't consider Christian. The restriction of information in the Evangelical spaces is just another thing they have in common with cults.
@@arozeisarozie Idk. I feel like the people who want to see it most, wouldn't ever become a Patreon of theirs. So it would probably serve them best, money wise, to release it on a separate video. But I don't think they will. Hope I'm wrong, tho!
Loved the response video! Thank you for choosing to do this one. Tim and his wife, Sarah, did do their own live watch and response video for the 24 hours. Tim does go into a more detail in his explanations, what was cut out, etc. It was a good watch. It is about a 3hr response video, but still good. Sarah and Tim also clarify the pregnancy complication that he was referring to in the abortion discussion.
It says a lot that Paul himself thinks his God would turn him or any other person away because they accidentally got some of the rules “wrong.” How limiting to the creator of everything. I dare say if you really got faith in God’s unending love, you gotta trust that He won’t throw a tantrum if you get a couple of things “wrong” ‼️
Fun fact, that is precisely what Jesus taught! He didn't teach that we'd not get into the kingdom of God for getting some things wrong. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew:5:19 Notice how Jesus didn't say, "he shall go to hell" he only said people who are teaching "wrong" things are gonna be called "the least in the kingdom of heaven" he didn't say they won't be in heaven. I never saw any evangelical or "new" evangelical comment on that verse.
When Paul said "providing the burden of proof should fall on people who hold the affirming view" I just yelled aloud We f#$%ing have the proof!!!!!!! Someone needs to make this man watch the 1946 documentary
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is pretty straight forward. I wonder how anyone can be non-affirming after reading this rather clear Jesus word.
The life and health of the “mother” is ALWAYS more at risk during pregnancy than when they are not pregnant. So, every “life/health of the mother is at risk” exception should apply to every pregnancy at every stage of pregnancy
The interesting thing is that Jewish theologians say that even the pain during birth and the fear of it is a valid reason for an abortion. Strange since they are using largely the same book and come to vastly different conclusions about these "clear teachings". Makes one think, doesn't it?
8:08 i loved how you said this. aren't you dehumanizing someone if you force them to carry to term? i wonder how paul (or other evangelicals) would respond to that question. is it justifiable to dehumanize someone if you think it will prevent the dehumanization of someone else? are you inherently applying more value to one of the people if you must choose to dehumanize one? i would think yes.
I was saying something similar while listening to this on Spotify (finishing the episode here). Why is Paul placing an unborn fetus' potential life over the actual life of a living, breathing human being? Why is the potential life more important than the person carrying that potential?
The abortion conversation where they were talking about "take out the cases where the pregnant person's life is in danger or the fetus is not viable" troubled me so much. There ARE situations where someone would get an abortion without either of those reasons. Like SA. Or incest.
At 20 weeks you can opt in to genetic testing for things like Down syndrome, spina bifida, and other congenital diseases. Thats also the anatomy scan where they make sure organs have formed correctly and whether that will result in a child with medical needs. You should have been given the option at your 20 week ultrasound to opt in to that testing. My husband and I did, and it was a huge turning point for me as well in my view of abortion. My husband and I had to come to terms with where we would draw the line based on the test results.
After watching this episode of 24 Hours With, I wonder why Paul and Morgan decided to do this series? The concept is a good one, but it could have been better executed if Paul and Morgan were more educated than they are. They cannot hold a conversation that doesn't involve sexual ethics, modesty, the LGBTQIA community, and/or abortion. Even then, they only have a surface level understanding of these topics. It makes this series feel repetitive because they are just rehashing the same arguments.
This series would be a great idea if it were being done by almost anyone other than these two. I'm shocked they even did this episode at all considering that when they were first launching it they said they didn't want to involve anyone they deemed "too progressive". Maybe they ran out of potential guests.
It would be a cool concept amongst people of different faiths as well. Especially amongst the 3 major monotheistic religions. I'd love to hear about other people's religion and how they differ with Christianity and how they're similar.
And even if they give any concessions in the actual videos, they immediately hop on to do a "reaction" video of their own video where they basically crap all over the guests and their beliefs. It makes it look like any agreements or nice interactions they may have had with their guest look like they were lying for the camera.
In regards to reproductive rights, something that genuinely disturbs me is that Paul holds beliefs that would very much put Morgan's life at risk should she have another high-risk pregnancy or birth. Morgan had a genuinely terrifying experience with the birth of their first child, something I wouldn't wish on anybody. Paul seems to think that holding onto these views without compromise makes him closer to God, and that these views are worth holding even if people suffer and die as a consequence. I hope Morgan is never in a position where she cannot speak for herself during pregnancy or labour and Paul has to be the one who speaks for her - God knows what he'd end up doing.
Something pointed out in a reddit thread on this video was that Porgan/fundies seem to primarily focus on excluding those who can get into heaven. This video, I think, made it especially evident with Tim's nuanced views & Porgan's narrowness. Paul straight up admitted in the Josh Benson video that it feels good to tell someone they're wrong. Their rigid views, & unwillingness to even remotely examine them, maintain their sense of exclusivity & superiority.
17:22 Morgan’s response to Tim gets a little lost with B’s comment, but she said “That’s on you for having sex with a man who wouldn’t listen to you and pull out.”
Yes because you absolutely always know when someone is going to be a r@pist or abuser before they start r@ping and abusing /s Paul and Morgan both have no concept of empathy or actual life in the real world.
@@n.r.m.15 No, It’s not, and yes, she did!!! I even went back to the original to make sure the quote was accurate. The victim shaming and male privilege runs deep…🤢🤦🏼♀️
@@creative_thimble560 that enragesssssssssss meeeeee. It's like those two have never experienced a single bad thing in their life that would MAYBE allow them to show some compassion or empathy. I have been stealthed while in an abusive relationship of 17 yrs. It is not ok. And I thought it was my fault for the longest time. They are just inhuman sometimes.
Paul doesn't really listen to what people are saying. You can see that he is trying to think of a way to respond to them to "push back" on what they are saying, rather than taking it in and understanding it. I would love to see him actually take on some of the things that are said to him and try to understand the perspectives of other people. It must be a lonely place if you only live via the bible alone.
These people (evangelicals) don't "live by the Bible alone". They cherry pick the Bible to use certain verses that fit into their narrow-minded patriarchal worldview. But they're certainly not getting that worldview from Jesus or even the old testament. Nowhere does the Bible say that women should all be stay at home moms. The Bible also never mentions homosexuality as that is a modern concept developed in the 19th century. It also never talks about abortion. Strangely enough those are the two biggest issues for fundamentalists but Jesus constantly preaching about the dangers of wealth and greed gets ignored. It's strange they are called fundamentalist even, because they don't follow the fundamentals of what Jesus was teaching. You know, all that love thy neighbor stuff and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That's today considered weak and "too feminin". I even heard someone call it a "sissyfied Jesus" if we point out that Jesus taught love. The "real" evangelicals believe in the Jesus coming back at the end of days with a sword in his hand to violently erase all the people evangelicals consider sinners. That's their real picture of Jesus. Not Jesus on the cross suffering for all mankind because he loved us.
Hey B, the screen they are referring to is a routine screen offered to all pregnant ppl (I assume globally; I’m a midwife in Australia and I know it’s offered in most countries including the US) is called Nuchal translucency and screen trisomy 21, 18, 13.
Paul is especially insufferable here :/ His verbal language is extremely condescending, especially when refusing to call Tim a Christian and constantly misinterpreting Tim’s words. His body language is closed off and a bit… snooty??? Arms crossed, nose turned up, like something from of a cartoon character. I commend Tim for at least trying to have a mature conversation in the face of all that :,-) I don’t know if I would’ve been able to keep a straight face…
My biggest issue with the abortion debate is do Paul and Morgan advocate for humanizing that child once it's born? Do they advocate for free school lunches? Do they advocate for medical care for BOTH the child and the parents who are taking care of them? Do they advocate for affordable housing? Do they advocate for affordable child care? Do they advocate for better education? Do they advocate for therapy services for kids with developmental needs? Do they advocate for support for the already bloated child protective services? Do they advocate for restructuring the abusive foster care system? Do they advocate for helping kids in the foster care system to get higher education or support for getting through high school or just therapy? Do they advocate for homeless teens? Do they advocate for humanizing queer kids, ESPECIALLY trans kids? If you're going to dehumanize a woman so you can humanize the unborn sorry "preborn" 🙄child inside of her then you better be advocating for that same child once they're born otherwise what even was the point
*sighs* Of course, Paul says "I hear you" but how when his ears are closed to another's pov that clashes with his . Thanks for watching this so I didn't have to .
Ive never heard of Tim but I love these reactions you did and am happy to hear Tim's take. In my walk with God I've come to a lot of the same conclusions about church, faith, the Bible and such! I'm disappointed Paul and Morgan are clearly not even open to his discoveries. I think they're 24hr With show is more to try and prove them wrong rather than meet in the middle.
Love the video & your thoughtful commentary! 9:30 Tim was probably talking about some genetic testing used to check for likelihood of a baby having trisomy 13/18/21.
People who aren’t religious don’t hate Jesus, we don’t believe in the religion. In fact, I’d argue many walk more like Jesus than Christian republicans 👀
the difference in their posture/body language is so funny to me. with Tim, his posture is so open and relaxed and he's leaning back with his arms out, and seems like he's just chilling, meanwhile Paul is literally hunched forward and looks SO tense and closed off, he even has his arms crossed in front of his chest a lot of the time 😂
I really appreciate your channel and perspective. I was diagnosed with Obsessive Compulsive Personally Disorder and one of the places I have to work hard to figure out if it's actually a belief or if it's the OCPD is in religious ideology. You help me find balance and peace in exploring faith and Christianity.
I wish Paul and Morgan would talk with you, but I hope this conversation at least made them think a couple of times. I don't really see them growing, but we can hope a seed was planted I guess! My win for the week - I had a really great work retreat and am looking forward to getting back into things next week fresh and focused! I'm an anxious traveler, so proud of myself for going and really participating and enjoying the experience with everyone. Looking forward to you checking out the Zelph conversation, it's a breath of fresh air after this one.
About Morgan not participating... when I was in fundamentalism, (iblp/ifb) a public display of submission was expected in situations like this. I was not allowed (according to the subcultural expectations as dictated to me by older church leaders) to discuss theological topics with men other than my husband. When my husband discussed those topics, I was expected to sit and quietly listen. I wasn't a very good little fundamentalist, and I did participate in the conversation. I got a lot of pushback from the church leaders for inserting myself into the men's conversations where I "didn't belong," so much so that I started talking to the women about theology instead. I was then asked to not do that either. No good could come, I was told, from women having ideas about the Bible and theology. We were expected to quietly listen, answer questions when asked, and if we had thoughts, opinions, or questions, discuss it with our husbands at home. In my estimation, Morgan is doing what my past church endorsed. So very glad I've gotten out of high control religion. It took me a decade out and 4 years of therapy before I could even begin to discuss the abuses my family and I endured.
Shouldn't be surprising, but still stunning to me that Paul LITERALLY crossed his arms, leaned back, no eye contact, shoulders up by his ears when Tim was giving answers he didn't like (so, all of them lol). Just so childish and visibly so unwilling to actually consider the merits of any other viewpoint
Your point of having to prove what percent the mother’s life is at risk is exactly why these “exceptions for the life of the mother” often causes major problems in certain states. Those regulations are intentionally vague. Doctors become afraid to treat people for fear of imprisonment or huge fines. The state I live in recently got rid of an 1800s abortion ban. There were several women who were miscarrying and were sent home without being treated because they weren’t “close enough” to death. Truly abhorrent and so immoral. I got so scared that my husband and I decided not to have a second child because with endometriosis I have a higher risk for miscarriage. The ban is gone now, but I’m still nervous it will come back. Still undecided about having another child, but we’ll see. There’s just so much unnecessary suffering with these abortion bans.
38:22 I think Tim probably grew up in the fundamentalist bible belt and is hesitant to make the blanket statement that "yes, you should be on the look out for false teachers" because he knows how this sentiment is used in fundamentalist environments. In those environments telling people to "look out for false teachers" or "be discerning" is just another way to tell people they should fear information and not seek out any information that has not received a stamp of approval from their church, etc. He was also probably feeling a bit defensive because it's obvious why Paul was asking this question. Paul was trying to suggest that Tim has differing viewpoints because he was not discerning enough in the information that he has received.
P and M say they want to talk to other “Christians they disagree with and find common ground” but then seem conclude either to the persons face or later in a Q&A that they aren’t really a Christian… I hope Paul and Morgan don’t interview too many more people cause I don’t think there would be any Christians left according to them! 😳 Also wanted to say Tim was very patient with Paul considering Tim sited his actual sources and how they were scholarly and Paul represented that as “opinions” and “feelings”. Then when faced with something Paul said he’d need to look more into he said he’d “search his mind” (33:25-33:55)to find answers. To be fair Paul did say he’d read a book if Tim wanted to recommend one right before that.
When they were talking about the man-doesn't-pull-out scenario, you missed Morgan saying "well that's on you for having sex with a man who didn't pull out" horrible victim blaming
Yes Morgan, because if people had that from a younger they would know more. I didnt understand how women got pregnant exactly until my mid-twenties because I grew up where this wasn’t taught!!!
Hi I follow The New Evangelicals and Tim I have been deconstructing my faith for a few months I'm older in age and have had issues with the church I go to here in N.Ireland being told a lie from the pulpit was my last straw. I personally think Paul and Morgan were both owned in this discussion Tim knows his stuff and we're P&M come from. I hope and pray both of them open their eyes and see the Christian faith is a huge house with many rooms to explore we might not agree with but it opens up our minds to other ideas. My views on heaven have changed and even hell things have just clicked in my head but I am open to all Christian faiths and their ideas. 🙂
Paul is saying he is homophobic with his full chest on the internet. And he is proud of it. Tim is so eloquent. And so well studied. I love his answers and agree with him so much. Loving this episode!!!!
The conclusion I've come to from these p & ms is that Paul has no issue affirming the validity of the Christianity of those he can out debate. The second he finds himself outwitted immediately causes him to question the perspectives of others. The point of these p & m's is clearly not to unite the Christian body despite differing beliefs, but to try to unite those with different beliefs than Paul to his way of thinking. And for a dude who is so openly homophobic, he sure kisses a lot of men.
Provided I'm remembering this right, Tim and his wife said the disease they were testing the one baby for was a genetic thing (something 13, I just forget what the "something" was). All things considered though, Paul seemed really out of his depth when talking to Tim.
Trisomy 13 is what they said. Tim also said he didn't love that he and Paul, two men, were having the abortion discussion, but they cut that comment. If I'm remembering correctly, I think Josh Benson said something similar. Paul really doesn't get why that's a problem tho.
@@christinafedderke3751well, of course people who view a woman's body as the property of her husband won't see a problem with men discussing abortion.
For the majority of the history of the Christian church, no one read the Bible. Before the printing press, before translations, no one was a Christian according to Paul 😂 He is so incredibly uneducated
Paul’s comment about “why would Jesus want to spend the afterlife with someone who hates and rejects him” is so petty and absurd. He’s not like you Paul, he doesn’t live in judgment, contempt, and bitterness towards others. Those are sinful human traits, not divine ones.
For the time has come for Judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
I don’t think Paul has ever thought about what it would be like to grow up with a mother who didn’t want you and sees you as an inconvenience. That’s not trivial. Those babies who were aborted “for convenience” would have suffered and grown up with incredibly unhealthy psychology if they were forced to be born into that situation.
Paul and Morgan really do seem made for each other. Their complete lack of empathy for anyone pregnant and the queer community just….blows me away. They are SO young, and just so filled with contempt and disgust and hatred. How can they call themselves followers of Christ when they act like this?
The principle of “the purpose of a system is what it does” applies to fundamentalist religions opposing sex education and also having very high rates of church-protected sexual abuse (among Mormons and Southern Baptists, for example)
Paul really struggles with the concept of logical fallacies lol Morgan is such a hateful person. Like, that shit is alarming; the way her and Paul are obsessed with punishment + endorsing injustice. The way he smiled and she laughed when Tim described s*xual assault was chilling. I hope they get real help.
Paul represents exactly why I left the church. Tim (and b haney) represents exactly why I can’t and won’t write all Christians off. I feel like Paul and Morgan just wanted to invite people who they could dunk on, but they’re still giving a platform to progressive ideas and maybe a few hearts will be changed. And that’s a positive any way you’d spin it.
As far as Jesus being “the only way”, you don’t have to know the name of the street you’re driving on to notice landmarks and get to where you need to go. The way is Jesus is largely common sense: be good, be compassionate, be generous, treat others as you want to be treated, etc. Being “good enough to get into Heaven” is not really all that difficult or narrow. Well, it is definitely difficult at times, but it’s not difficult to RECOGNIZE. You don’t have to think of yourself as a Christian or know anything about Jesus to be a good person and be recognizable as “acting like Jesus” to someone who knows about him. Because it’s not new information. It comes down to Paul’s inability to understand what is good and what makes something good or bad or neither. It’s why he’s obsessed with thinking gay people are a sin, because he fundamentally doesn’t understand what it means for something to be a sin or to be wrong or to be right. He’s idolizing the Bible so much that he’s forgotten the basic common sense knowledge that a thing that benefits others is a good and a thing that harms others is bad, and anything that does neither is neutral.
Paul is much like Fleabag, begging Hot Priest to “just tell me what to do” yet Fleabag is a multidimensional character with the full array of human functions
It's not really shocking that Paul won't say Tim is a christian. Remember, unless you believe like he and Morgan does, Paul doesn't think your christian. They've both said it many times on their "show" if you believe differently then you're not a "REAL" christian whatever that means.
Paul shouldn't be gatekeeping anyway. He's the last person who should be deciding who is or isn't a Christian (or a person of any other religion for that matter).
Morgan is so callous here just saying "well then you shouldn't have been having sex with them!" as though people should expect to be assaulted by someone they're having sex with. Sorry, but the way she comes off in these videos is like she doesn't really have any empathy for anyone outside of her experience.
The question I want him to ask Paul is “okay, so if your ideas are true, then what would be the point?” Like, there is a clear point to God telling us to help the poor and love your neighbor and not to kill anyone etc. But what would be the point of God saying “by the way, only this type of person should get married. I’ve arbitrarily decided that this other type of person is no good and they shouldn’t be allowed to marry.” Why would God indicate something so clearly pointless? It’s like saying “my interpretation of scripture says that it’s a mortal sin for anyone with blue eyes to wear shoes on a Thursday afternoon”. When everything else has a clear point and is obviously telling us to do good things and not to do bad things, you have a LOT of explaining to do if you think you can show up out of nowhere and say that God is telling us that something random, harmless, and inconsequential (in the sense of “having no consequences) is not allowed for some mystical reason that we’re just not special enough to understand.
SHOCKING. I can’t believe Paul has such a narrow acceptance of other people’s Christianity. I see so little evidence of evangelicals like Paul and Morgan showing the love of Jesus. They are so strict but seem to miss the deep message (and obviously the nuance and contradictions) of the texts.
This right here is a prime example of how frustrating it gets for an intelligent person to communicate with someone who is ignorant they go round and round and get stuck in this box they are afraid to challenge their brainwashed core belief that was taught to them and there is some like him that doesnt consider a person saved unless they are doing the praying/saving as an intersex person i see this so often i request to be baptized and they because i didn't do the walk of embarrassment and get up front to tell my intimacy with Christ "im not saved" or they see my breast and 5 oclock shadow that im un-saveable or cant be baptized even when im single and i have even had them question what meds i take seriously intersex people often have to take hormones to stay healthy regardless of transition or not its like what should i wear today to please you? should i bind my chest to hide boobs or shave and wear makeup to cover my shadow that burns and burns after shaving...
Medically necessary is still a smaller part of abortions. But best (proven in other countries) to reduce abortion is sex ed (including consent) ; what about those why cannot afford an extra mouth to feed - and paying out cash for prenatal care and birth. Imagine if the parents didn't have to feel that it is abortion or bankruptcy.
Ohhh man at 34 mark- he is implying that Tim is a false teacher- he is saying this so that he can dismiss the valid points that Tim is presenting- wow so obvious.
I just want to say that you are a Christian who is very much on the same page that I wish I could just have a coffee with a talk all things Creator and theology. And I think a lot of us think that. Thank you for being you and for your videos that are the next best thing :)
Gosh. I truly can’t handle the disingenuous laugh from Morgan and the easy ability that Paul just passively aggressively answers serious questions he disagrees with.
Athiest here with a question. Say a baby is born in rural Japan, is raised Shinto, never meets a Christian, lives a kind & generous life, and dies. Does that person go to Hell? Did God make that person? Does God make people that will go to Hell because they've never heard of Jesus? How do Fundies explain that? Do they think the Hebrew bible is the only religious text written centuries ago? I dont get it.
It has been a long time since I’ve practiced, but I vaguely remember being taught that (according to the Bible) if you lived as a good person and didn’t know of him, you would still be given the chance to chill in heaven if you chose to believe after he filled you in.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Romans:2:14
(Continuing Commentary) * Paul's trying to argue his anti-abortion beliefs from an illogical assumption! He's trying to give his argument more traction (which he's losing ground on pretty quickly)! * Paul needs to face the points that Tim is pointing out! He's doubling down on his willful ignorance! He and Morgan said they were going to home-school their kids, so I think those areas are not going to be taught when the time is right! * Paul is such a coward for cutting off the topic! Argue to the end, you hypocrite!! * Paul's straw-man arguments are SO damn tiring! He's losing ground by the second, but he can't see it! Give it up, Dude! * Paul doesn't really want to study and understand, he wants to have a vehicle to hold over people and be RIGHT all the time! * "Keep an open mind"...First you have to OPEN YOUR MIND, Paul! It's like the saying goes: "Minds are like parachutes, they work best when they are OPEN!!" * Paul is falling back to his concrete, thick-headed practice of "If you don't believe EXACTLY the way I do, then I don't think you're a Christian!" * Paul would NOT PONDER ANYTHING Tim would say, he would brush them off and go about being his weak-egoed, narcissistic self! * Paul's back-pedalling at the end is so sickening! It makes P&M look that more ridiculous!
16:13 no. The majority of humanity is hetero. The idea that affirming LGBT leads to undermining hetero relationships is weird. The old testament had a lot of issues with building up the nation, so yes maximum children.
I have a couple of thoughts here. First of all: as a former Christian, you are one of the only Christian creators that I follow. Your takes are fair and I love your videos. Second: I’m intrigued about Paul’s take at the end-does he believe that people can lose their salvation, or does he believe that they’re not actually saved? The way he tried to get Tim to explain what salvation means to him, it almost seems like he thinks there are works that have to be completed to become an “actual Christian”?
16:13 Paul, would you ever dare to ask if the doctrine of your childhood could be the false teachers? If guarding against false teachers we need to test all, not just those who disagree with me.
Make sure you caught part 1 first! ☺️ ua-cam.com/video/gyoVt9hop-0/v-deo.htmlsi=2e3EUIdILRjLTseR
After the "reproductive rights" skip; Paul is more or less talking about [non-believers/atheists]. If you are interested I think Brandon from Mindshift & Derek from MythVision if you want to get a better academic/scholarly understanding from "outside/secular voices".
Mindshift:
- www.youtube.com/@MindShift-Brandon
MythVision:
- www.youtube.com/@MythVisionPodcast
Paul never answers a question. Same as a politician
It bugs me to no end that Paul keeps saying things are “clear” even after Tim so carefully explains why they are not. Theology isn’t clear but what is clear is that Paul isn’t listening
Or he doesn't care to listen.
@@melissalarigan325that too 🫠
To be fair, looking at it through Paul’s perspective, admitting that the Bible has many different interpretations basically chips away at his strict extreme fundamentalist beliefs. He has to keep up the cognitive dissonance otherwise he’d have to admit his beliefs might not necessarily be the only way
@@lindseystein9676sadly there is a level of truth in that. And I think it is a toxic impact of literalism, and inerrancy, which developed only mid 1800s as a reaction to scholars looking at the dating and authorship of the texts (Higher Criticism). The claim to have a totally clear, totally literal interpretation of the Bible leads people into false dichotomies. Adam and Eve must be real, if not then nothing in NT can be. This is what provokes people trying to challenge science and clIam a young earth and a flood despite all the evidence. Those growing up in this belief system have to either reject most of science or reject their faith. The theology they are taught creates these divides. Whereas without Biblotry the depth of poetry, or exploring origins, of giving space for the humanity of the authors and their skills with literary devices we are less used to today, that to me gives greater depth. And is a faith that can embrace the exploration of creation in all it's wonders.
He also conintinues to fail providing the specifics to his generalizations and huge interpretive statements.
The way that Paul says the word “sexual” makes me want to peel my skin off. It’s SOOOO TELLING about his mindset and maturity around human sexuality. Tim was 100% correct in saying that Evangelicals are obsessed with sex. And the fact that P&M were okay with nonconsenual ejaculation in the abortion discussion just shows that their whole “biblical” view is just misogyny and hate.
I won't lie, I'm happy that a public figure actually called out the weird evangelical obsession with sex rather than try to debate them on it or debunk them. Not to say the latter two things are a complete waste of time, but I think we need more people pointing out how weird it is these people are obsessed with sex.
Rule of thumb I've developed thanks to Paul; never take advice about relationships from a guy who can only talk about sex like a giddy 12 year old who found his dad's stash of skin mags.
I cannot get over how disgusting Morgan’s reaction to that was. She LAUGHED at rape victims.
@@AvaEFFI'm disgusted but not surprised. She had a similar reaction when talking about the survivors in Shiny Happy People.
Paul loves giving it (grilling the people he interviews), but can't take it. Just give the man a straight answer! Sheesh.
Exactly this!!
Sex education also reduces the amount of Sexual abuse that happens as well. If you teach kids what sex is and what abuse is, it's a lot more difficult for people to just get away with it. And with how prevalent sexual abuse is within religion,you would think people would want to prevent that from happening . But no. Instead they continue to advocate for no sex education and not even talking about sex until you get engaged or married. This is a recipe for disaster.
I know, it's a vicious cycle, too. Kids are taught to not talk about their body parts, that they should be ashamed to talk about it, and have no one to turn to. Some will think it's normal, and continue the cycle of abuse.
Ya, lack of sex education leads to thinking like Morgan has - where she scoffs at the idea of deciding to have sex and saying no to being ejaculated in. They have no idea what consent means and it’s scary.
I'm so passionate about this. It baffles me when the people in my life who are the most pro-life and activly fight human trafficking can't seem to understand how sex education is important!
@@loveleyeyes1654 It's almost like they don't actually care about protecting children and just enjoy dictating other people's lives😮💨
Paul: I want to talk to other types of Christians to bridge gaps and reconcile our differences!
Another type of Christian: Awesome! Here are some amazing resources that have broadened my understanding of this ancient scripture in a modern context :)
Paul: *ignores everything bc it’s too complicated and he just wishes it was more straightforward :(((*
Then he proceeds to question if not outright deny said persons faith.
Paul has got to be the single most judgmental person I’ve ever seen. He is so preoccupied with “loving” sinners (telling them they’re going to hell) instead of loving people and following the things Jesus stressed. Who is he to say who is a Christian and who isn’t? It’s beyond bizarre!
I have never seen Paul & Morgan use their platform to encourage anyone to actually do good in the world - help the poor, feed the hungry, care for the underprivileged - it's all about them feeling superior to everyone who isn't exactly like them. It's gross.
@@graspingbeauty This. They’re unconcerned with serving other people and doing good in the world. Instead, Paul and Morgan want a rule book in order to feel superior and sure of their salvation because they’ve adhered to their arbitrary rules.
Notice how paul never asks someone a question framing it as "as a Christian, what do you think about x y z" -- he always says "as someone who considers themselves a Christian, what do you think about x y z" I think that's so telling of his perspective of other peoples' faith and not seeing it as genuine.
Paul doesn’t argue in good faith and he has a really annoying habit of generalizing about someone else makes a point funny how he always says “it’s clear at least to me” like scholars haven’t been arguing over translations for centuries
@@Meganec3810 totally agree. He doesn't have the open minded disposition that's needed to make these '24 hours with' videos actually productive.
That's what Paul said about B in a live after the bethy/dav/fundie Friday's thing. "Oh I asked in the comments if they could point me to a solid Christian. And they suggested this girl who CONSIDERS HERSELF a Christian". Made me so mad
I was just coming to say this same thing! It’s extremely obvious that he is only here to disparage Tim, to make himself feel like the better and smarter person.
Dude, in P&M's response video Paul mentioned "another atheist youtuber" and then corrected himself to clarify that Tim isn't an atheist 😑 he considers progressive Christian's and atheists in the same camp
Why is Paul so angry about the idea that people who weren’t saved in this life will be in the next?
My guess: Paul doesn’t think it’s fair for people that didn’t suffer the way he thinks Christians should for their reward of salvation. Anyone getting to live life authentically and happily on earth and still getting redemption in the afterlife means that they got something he didn’t. And Paul strikes me as exactly the type of privileged white man that doesn’t think anyone should get an advantage that he didn’t get first and better.
OMG so true. How unutterably sad to live like that-
Paul needs to mind his own business. If you're so worried that certain people are going to a magical place called "hell," then it says more about you than it does about the person being judged.
Jesus has a parable about this where people who were hired for manual labor in the morning, afternoon and at the end of the day were all given the same about of money. The morning guys were angry but the land owner says it’s not for them to be angry what he does with his money. But I know in fundie circles they are somehow the heroes of all the parables
Christians love the idea of people who aren't exactly like them suffering.
B, your (very correct!) reaction to the sexual assault scenario meant you missed the worst part-- Morgan *laughing* about it and *blaming* the woman for sleeping with an assaulter
Classic morgan
wait what part was this??
It’s so crazy they started this whole series, but are both so clearly unwilling to consider the other person’s perspective or frankly any sort of evidence that contradicts their current thoughts. Baffling. They really are so arrogant to sit on Tim’s couch and call him not a christian after that whole disclaimer.
I'm honestly disgusted with Paul. Especially after this
My thoughts exactly. Their approach and attitude towards these conversations proves to me that they’re doing the series solely as a cash/views grab instead of trying to listen & learn
Unfortunately they tend to start these series but refuse to listen or understand others thoughts unless they're actually friends of theirs. They really want to make money and be supported by anything but themselves like an actual job.
As an atheist, Tim has actually made me curious about the bible lol not for faith reasons but for historic book reasons. So many "classic novels" we know are just based on like one interpretation/translation and the actual meaning could be lost. Paul was definetly pathetic with his "gotcha" attempts, he should be grateful Tim didn't ask any hardball questions back. Also it's so pathetic they call it Paul and Morgan lol it's the Paul show and Morgan is the laugh track.
Religious study is fascinating, ngl. I'd suggest looking into it if you are interested. There's a ton of interesting historical and cultural context that can be found in studying the bible, as well as other religions around the world. I've been an atheist for a long time but that definitely hasn't stopped me from coming to videos like these, as well as books and articles written by religious scholars, to broaden my understanding. It's just a lot of fun to see what motivated people back then to believe the things they believed and write the things they wrote.
Same!!!
The academic scholars on mythvision are so good. Most academics have far more nuanced views that the average Christian
@@Coastpsych_fi99 a lot of academics are Christians too, which is fascinating to me! (Apparently a lot of Presbyterian ministers are also academics, but maybe there's something to that, since I grew up in the Presbyterian church lol). Just goes to show that you don't have to stubbornly deny historical context and scholarly opinions to be a Christian. And it makes people like Paul look all the more ridiculous for writing off other people's beliefs based on a single disagreement.
@@bulletsandbracelets4140here in Germany every pastor has to have a university degree. You also need to learn Hebrew and Greek to read the original texts.
And Paul wonders why people don’t like him.
He should really “search his mind“ about that topic.
I'm an atheist, and I love your content. I totally respect your objectivity, being unbiased, and your active push against all things fallacious. I feel like your desire is to deeply understand and that that understanding can only bolster what you believe. I would agree! You're very logical, rational, and realist-y.
Did Morgan literally say “that’s on you for having sex with man that doesn’t pull out” about unwanted pregnancies?!? No blame on the man committing sexual assault?? I listened back multiple times because I wanted to be wrong but that really is what she said… I have no words
Not only did she say that, but she thought it was FUNNY.
The 29ish minute mark was painful. Paul is so narrow focused that he completely lost sight of what was happening there. In Paul’s mind, he will always be right because of his own interpretation, BUT on the other hand he can’t give the same respect to others. Like wow.
The 29 minute mark is PAINFUL. Kudos to Tim for being mature and professional. I don’t know how he did it. I’m not even Christian and I wanted to start yelling at Paul.
I just got there and uuggh it's just so much
Man I was feeling so fired up listening to Paul talk about abortion and sex ed. It is one of those topics I personally feel so strongly about. I am atheist, have six kids myself with my husband, and am absolutely pro choice. Just because I wouldn’t make that choice for me, doesn’t mean I have the rights to make it for anyone else.
The worst thing is not being born, which I think is where people get so hung up. Imagine being born to abusive, drug addicted parents. I would argue SA, physical violence, drugs, etc are much worse for a child to have to live through than an abortion at 8 weeks.
And Paul talking about sex ed being icky especially being taught in schools…his response is exactly why there needs to be thorough education in schools. Parents like Paul and Morgan will not be giving their kids the facts, the options or access to contraception. They are going to preach abstinence, if they talk about it at all. And it’s proven that approach does not help prevent pregnancy. Even many public schools only teach abstinence, it’s not acceptable - take the religious aspect out of it. It’s doing no one any good.
Regarding Tim's response to the question about false teaching -- I think Tim answered the way he did because Paul framed the question as an issue of obedience to scripture, and Tim's main message throughout the conversation had been learning how to deal with scripture in a responsible way. And after being bombarded with Paul constantly repeating the same tired nonsense of "clear biblical teaching" for most of a day, Tim must have been mentally exhausted. So he reverted back to the same kind of thing he'd been trying to communicate the whole time.
I'm glad that Paul & Morgan finally got a chance to hear someone say this kind of thing at length, but I also wish the conversation could have probed more into the underlying reasons for Tim & Paul's incompatible methods for reading the bible, not just the conclusions they come to. It's as if Paul is incapable of understanding what it means to say "scripture must be interpreted"; he lacks the education and self-reflection that would be needed. Plus he seems to carry an unstated assumption that every important question MUST have a clear black & white answer without ambiguity, and if an answer IS ambiguous, that must be a sign of lack of faith. And he thinks his own rigidity is a sign of his own strong faith. Maddening!
I cannot believe Paul wouldn't affirm Tim as a Christian. If you believe Jesus is your savior and try to follow his teachings, doesn't that make you Christian?. You can have different thoughts and interpretations, but I don't believe a fundamentalist is any more or less Christian than a Catholic or a Protestant. He's just so judgemental.
My thoughts exactly. I know Tim asked Paul the question so I can’t blame him for answering it but I just feel like it’s no one’s place to make that judgement on anyone else.
I think they go even further than the hedging about if he is a Christian in the closing. The whole premise of the series is about “building unity in Christ” but they have end slides that urge their watchers to consider that some “doctrinal differences” may be too significant to be considered a “brother or sister in Christ.”
It amazes me how much judging Paul does! Ughhh
This👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻
“because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Romans 10:9 ESV
I don’t see how it can be made simpler. Tim clearly fits Paul the apostle’s definition of what it means to be saved. I’m not sure how Paul and Morgan have the authority to call it otherwise.
I wish they hadn't cut the political conversations, because I feel they're really the climax of their convos, they're where there would be an actual chance to see Paul maybe question some positions of his.
Same here! They got pretty political with their conversation with Josh so I’m not sure why they cut them out of this one. I saw Morgan say she made the call bc Tim was “emotional” and she didn’t think it was a good look for him but if that was the case, she could have checked in with him shown him some of the footage and asked if he was comfortable with them including it.
@@BHaney and Tim himself did a reaction and said he wishes they HADN'T cut political convos, so... And idk why ppl see getting emotional/passionate as being such a problem. I like it when ppl show that it all genuinely matters to them.
Because they subscribe to toxic masculinity...so a crying man caring and having empathy for other people that he can't even identify as? That's "not a good look". I think it's nonsense...my opinion is that the political conversations made Paul look uneducated on facts about the topics and foolish...thats why it was left out. Couldn't show him get schooled by a person they don't consider Christian. The restriction of information in the Evangelical spaces is just another thing they have in common with cults.
They’ll probably add it to their Patreon if they look decent in it. No shade. It’s just smart.
@@arozeisarozie Idk. I feel like the people who want to see it most, wouldn't ever become a Patreon of theirs. So it would probably serve them best, money wise, to release it on a separate video. But I don't think they will. Hope I'm wrong, tho!
Loved the response video! Thank you for choosing to do this one.
Tim and his wife, Sarah, did do their own live watch and response video for the 24 hours. Tim does go into a more detail in his explanations, what was cut out, etc. It was a good watch. It is about a 3hr response video, but still good. Sarah and Tim also clarify the pregnancy complication that he was referring to in the abortion discussion.
It says a lot that Paul himself thinks his God would turn him or any other person away because they accidentally got some of the rules “wrong.” How limiting to the creator of everything. I dare say if you really got faith in God’s unending love, you gotta trust that He won’t throw a tantrum if you get a couple of things “wrong” ‼️
Yes, even if that type of entity existed, nobody should be worshipping it!
Fun fact, that is precisely what Jesus taught! He didn't teach that we'd not get into the kingdom of God for getting some things wrong.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew:5:19
Notice how Jesus didn't say, "he shall go to hell" he only said people who are teaching "wrong" things are gonna be called "the least in the kingdom of heaven" he didn't say they won't be in heaven. I never saw any evangelical or "new" evangelical comment on that verse.
When Paul said "providing the burden of proof should fall on people who hold the affirming view" I just yelled aloud We f#$%ing have the proof!!!!!!! Someone needs to make this man watch the 1946 documentary
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is pretty straight forward. I wonder how anyone can be non-affirming after reading this rather clear Jesus word.
The life and health of the “mother” is ALWAYS more at risk during pregnancy than when they are not pregnant. So, every “life/health of the mother is at risk” exception should apply to every pregnancy at every stage of pregnancy
The interesting thing is that Jewish theologians say that even the pain during birth and the fear of it is a valid reason for an abortion. Strange since they are using largely the same book and come to vastly different conclusions about these "clear teachings". Makes one think, doesn't it?
8:08 i loved how you said this. aren't you dehumanizing someone if you force them to carry to term? i wonder how paul (or other evangelicals) would respond to that question. is it justifiable to dehumanize someone if you think it will prevent the dehumanization of someone else? are you inherently applying more value to one of the people if you must choose to dehumanize one? i would think yes.
I was saying something similar while listening to this on Spotify (finishing the episode here). Why is Paul placing an unborn fetus' potential life over the actual life of a living, breathing human being? Why is the potential life more important than the person carrying that potential?
The abortion conversation where they were talking about "take out the cases where the pregnant person's life is in danger or the fetus is not viable" troubled me so much. There ARE situations where someone would get an abortion without either of those reasons.
Like SA. Or incest.
Paul - The Bible is clear
Also Paul - Won't answer a question straight forward
Thank you for this reaction, I absolutely could not have watched this without a buffer.
At 20 weeks you can opt in to genetic testing for things like Down syndrome, spina bifida, and other congenital diseases. Thats also the anatomy scan where they make sure organs have formed correctly and whether that will result in a child with medical needs.
You should have been given the option at your 20 week ultrasound to opt in to that testing. My husband and I did, and it was a huge turning point for me as well in my view of abortion. My husband and I had to come to terms with where we would draw the line based on the test results.
After watching this episode of 24 Hours With, I wonder why Paul and Morgan decided to do this series? The concept is a good one, but it could have been better executed if Paul and Morgan were more educated than they are. They cannot hold a conversation that doesn't involve sexual ethics, modesty, the LGBTQIA community, and/or abortion. Even then, they only have a surface level understanding of these topics. It makes this series feel repetitive because they are just rehashing the same arguments.
This series would be a great idea if it were being done by almost anyone other than these two. I'm shocked they even did this episode at all considering that when they were first launching it they said they didn't want to involve anyone they deemed "too progressive". Maybe they ran out of potential guests.
It would be a cool concept amongst people of different faiths as well. Especially amongst the 3 major monotheistic religions. I'd love to hear about other people's religion and how they differ with Christianity and how they're similar.
And even if they give any concessions in the actual videos, they immediately hop on to do a "reaction" video of their own video where they basically crap all over the guests and their beliefs. It makes it look like any agreements or nice interactions they may have had with their guest look like they were lying for the camera.
@LithoCat it feels like they're very internet tough. But can't actually keep that same energy in person.
This series would have been amazing if Tim (who I only first heard of through these videos) were the one doing it.
In regards to reproductive rights, something that genuinely disturbs me is that Paul holds beliefs that would very much put Morgan's life at risk should she have another high-risk pregnancy or birth. Morgan had a genuinely terrifying experience with the birth of their first child, something I wouldn't wish on anybody. Paul seems to think that holding onto these views without compromise makes him closer to God, and that these views are worth holding even if people suffer and die as a consequence. I hope Morgan is never in a position where she cannot speak for herself during pregnancy or labour and Paul has to be the one who speaks for her - God knows what he'd end up doing.
Agreed and I’d like to add that it’s a very real possibility that Morgan’s own “beliefs” would put her life at risk. In fact, they did.
Something pointed out in a reddit thread on this video was that Porgan/fundies seem to primarily focus on excluding those who can get into heaven. This video, I think, made it especially evident with Tim's nuanced views & Porgan's narrowness. Paul straight up admitted in the Josh Benson video that it feels good to tell someone they're wrong. Their rigid views, & unwillingness to even remotely examine them, maintain their sense of exclusivity & superiority.
17:22 Morgan’s response to Tim gets a little lost with B’s comment, but she said “That’s on you for having sex with a man who wouldn’t listen to you and pull out.”
🤢 she’s truly gone off the deep end
Yes because you absolutely always know when someone is going to be a r@pist or abuser before they start r@ping and abusing /s Paul and Morgan both have no concept of empathy or actual life in the real world.
Did she really say that??? 😳 Maybe that's how she got pregnant with the 2nd child she really wasn't ready for. But regardless. It's not right or fair.
@@n.r.m.15 No, It’s not, and yes, she did!!! I even went back to the original to make sure the quote was accurate. The victim shaming and male privilege runs deep…🤢🤦🏼♀️
@@creative_thimble560 that enragesssssssssss meeeeee. It's like those two have never experienced a single bad thing in their life that would MAYBE allow them to show some compassion or empathy. I have been stealthed while in an abusive relationship of 17 yrs. It is not ok. And I thought it was my fault for the longest time. They are just inhuman sometimes.
“why do you have such a hard time believing what i believe” like bro that is not how CONVERSATION WORKS
Paul doesn't really listen to what people are saying. You can see that he is trying to think of a way to respond to them to "push back" on what they are saying, rather than taking it in and understanding it. I would love to see him actually take on some of the things that are said to him and try to understand the perspectives of other people. It must be a lonely place if you only live via the bible alone.
These people (evangelicals) don't "live by the Bible alone". They cherry pick the Bible to use certain verses that fit into their narrow-minded patriarchal worldview. But they're certainly not getting that worldview from Jesus or even the old testament. Nowhere does the Bible say that women should all be stay at home moms. The Bible also never mentions homosexuality as that is a modern concept developed in the 19th century. It also never talks about abortion. Strangely enough those are the two biggest issues for fundamentalists but Jesus constantly preaching about the dangers of wealth and greed gets ignored.
It's strange they are called fundamentalist even, because they don't follow the fundamentals of what Jesus was teaching. You know, all that love thy neighbor stuff and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That's today considered weak and "too feminin". I even heard someone call it a "sissyfied Jesus" if we point out that Jesus taught love. The "real" evangelicals believe in the Jesus coming back at the end of days with a sword in his hand to violently erase all the people evangelicals consider sinners. That's their real picture of Jesus. Not Jesus on the cross suffering for all mankind because he loved us.
Paul has such black and white thinking which he covers with words from the Bible. Tim is very unbothered.
Hey B, the screen they are referring to is a routine screen offered to all pregnant ppl (I assume globally; I’m a midwife in Australia and I know it’s offered in most countries including the US) is called Nuchal translucency and screen trisomy 21, 18, 13.
Paul is especially insufferable here :/ His verbal language is extremely condescending, especially when refusing to call Tim a Christian and constantly misinterpreting Tim’s words. His body language is closed off and a bit… snooty??? Arms crossed, nose turned up, like something from of a cartoon character. I commend Tim for at least trying to have a mature conversation in the face of all that :,-) I don’t know if I would’ve been able to keep a straight face…
My biggest issue with the abortion debate is do Paul and Morgan advocate for humanizing that child once it's born? Do they advocate for free school lunches? Do they advocate for medical care for BOTH the child and the parents who are taking care of them? Do they advocate for affordable housing? Do they advocate for affordable child care? Do they advocate for better education? Do they advocate for therapy services for kids with developmental needs? Do they advocate for support for the already bloated child protective services? Do they advocate for restructuring the abusive foster care system? Do they advocate for helping kids in the foster care system to get higher education or support for getting through high school or just therapy? Do they advocate for homeless teens? Do they advocate for humanizing queer kids, ESPECIALLY trans kids?
If you're going to dehumanize a woman so you can humanize the unborn sorry "preborn" 🙄child inside of her then you better be advocating for that same child once they're born otherwise what even was the point
Paul why even ask questions if you’re not going to engage with the answers 🙄
A note if someone hasn’t said it already He’s talking about it the NIPT test - in regards to the testing around 10-12 weeks .
*sighs* Of course, Paul says "I hear you" but how when his ears are closed to another's pov that clashes with his .
Thanks for watching this so I didn't have to .
Ive never heard of Tim but I love these reactions you did and am happy to hear Tim's take. In my walk with God I've come to a lot of the same conclusions about church, faith, the Bible and such! I'm disappointed Paul and Morgan are clearly not even open to his discoveries. I think they're 24hr With show is more to try and prove them wrong rather than meet in the middle.
Love the video & your thoughtful commentary!
9:30 Tim was probably talking about some genetic testing used to check for likelihood of a baby having trisomy 13/18/21.
Also eternity in heaven with Paul and Morgan sounds much worse than just dying and there being nothing.
People who aren’t religious don’t hate Jesus, we don’t believe in the religion. In fact, I’d argue many walk more like Jesus than Christian republicans 👀
Love your perspective B. Nicely done. Sharp girl !
the difference in their posture/body language is so funny to me. with Tim, his posture is so open and relaxed and he's leaning back with his arms out, and seems like he's just chilling, meanwhile Paul is literally hunched forward and looks SO tense and closed off, he even has his arms crossed in front of his chest a lot of the time 😂
This is my first time seeing you around UA-cam and your vibes are so good! Absolutely immaculate it's like a warm hug
I really appreciate your channel and perspective. I was diagnosed with Obsessive Compulsive Personally Disorder and one of the places I have to work hard to figure out if it's actually a belief or if it's the OCPD is in religious ideology. You help me find balance and peace in exploring faith and Christianity.
I wish Paul and Morgan would talk with you, but I hope this conversation at least made them think a couple of times. I don't really see them growing, but we can hope a seed was planted I guess!
My win for the week - I had a really great work retreat and am looking forward to getting back into things next week fresh and focused! I'm an anxious traveler, so proud of myself for going and really participating and enjoying the experience with everyone. Looking forward to you checking out the Zelph conversation, it's a breath of fresh air after this one.
About Morgan not participating... when I was in fundamentalism, (iblp/ifb) a public display of submission was expected in situations like this. I was not allowed (according to the subcultural expectations as dictated to me by older church leaders) to discuss theological topics with men other than my husband. When my husband discussed those topics, I was expected to sit and quietly listen. I wasn't a very good little fundamentalist, and I did participate in the conversation. I got a lot of pushback from the church leaders for inserting myself into the men's conversations where I "didn't belong," so much so that I started talking to the women about theology instead. I was then asked to not do that either. No good could come, I was told, from women having ideas about the Bible and theology. We were expected to quietly listen, answer questions when asked, and if we had thoughts, opinions, or questions, discuss it with our husbands at home. In my estimation, Morgan is doing what my past church endorsed. So very glad I've gotten out of high control religion. It took me a decade out and 4 years of therapy before I could even begin to discuss the abuses my family and I endured.
I enjoyed this two part episode soooo much and learned a lot! Thank you for what you do, B!
Shouldn't be surprising, but still stunning to me that Paul LITERALLY crossed his arms, leaned back, no eye contact, shoulders up by his ears when Tim was giving answers he didn't like (so, all of them lol). Just so childish and visibly so unwilling to actually consider the merits of any other viewpoint
Your point of having to prove what percent the mother’s life is at risk is exactly why these “exceptions for the life of the mother” often causes major problems in certain states. Those regulations are intentionally vague. Doctors become afraid to treat people for fear of imprisonment or huge fines. The state I live in recently got rid of an 1800s abortion ban. There were several women who were miscarrying and were sent home without being treated because they weren’t “close enough” to death. Truly abhorrent and so immoral. I got so scared that my husband and I decided not to have a second child because with endometriosis I have a higher risk for miscarriage. The ban is gone now, but I’m still nervous it will come back. Still undecided about having another child, but we’ll see. There’s just so much unnecessary suffering with these abortion bans.
38:22 I think Tim probably grew up in the fundamentalist bible belt and is hesitant to make the blanket statement that "yes, you should be on the look out for false teachers" because he knows how this sentiment is used in fundamentalist environments. In those environments telling people to "look out for false teachers" or "be discerning" is just another way to tell people they should fear information and not seek out any information that has not received a stamp of approval from their church, etc. He was also probably feeling a bit defensive because it's obvious why Paul was asking this question. Paul was trying to suggest that Tim has differing viewpoints because he was not discerning enough in the information that he has received.
P and M say they want to talk to other “Christians they disagree with and find common ground” but then seem conclude either to the persons face or later in a Q&A that they aren’t really a Christian…
I hope Paul and Morgan don’t interview too many more people cause I don’t think there would be any Christians left according to them! 😳
Also wanted to say Tim was very patient with Paul considering Tim sited his actual sources and how they were scholarly and Paul represented that as “opinions” and “feelings”.
Then when faced with something Paul said he’d need to look more into he said he’d “search his mind” (33:25-33:55)to find answers. To be fair Paul did say he’d read a book if Tim wanted to recommend one right before that.
Who died and made Paul the ultimate authority on the Bible and Christianity?
I learned sooo much with this series! Thx for your really smart commentary!
When they were talking about the man-doesn't-pull-out scenario, you missed Morgan saying "well that's on you for having sex with a man who didn't pull out" horrible victim blaming
Yes Morgan, because if people had that from a younger they would know more. I didnt understand how women got pregnant exactly until my mid-twenties because I grew up where this wasn’t taught!!!
Hi I follow The New Evangelicals and Tim I have been deconstructing my faith for a few months I'm older in age and have had issues with the church I go to here in N.Ireland being told a lie from the pulpit was my last straw. I personally think Paul and Morgan were both owned in this discussion Tim knows his stuff and we're P&M come from. I hope and pray both of them open their eyes and see the Christian faith is a huge house with many rooms to explore we might not agree with but it opens up our minds to other ideas. My views on heaven have changed and even hell things have just clicked in my head but I am open to all Christian faiths and their ideas. 🙂
Paul is saying he is homophobic with his full chest on the internet. And he is proud of it.
Tim is so eloquent. And so well studied. I love his answers and agree with him so much.
Loving this episode!!!!
The conclusion I've come to from these p & ms is that Paul has no issue affirming the validity of the Christianity of those he can out debate. The second he finds himself outwitted immediately causes him to question the perspectives of others.
The point of these p & m's is clearly not to unite the Christian body despite differing beliefs, but to try to unite those with different beliefs than Paul to his way of thinking.
And for a dude who is so openly homophobic, he sure kisses a lot of men.
Does Paul not know that there is prolific polygamy in the Old Testament?
Provided I'm remembering this right, Tim and his wife said the disease they were testing the one baby for was a genetic thing (something 13, I just forget what the "something" was). All things considered though, Paul seemed really out of his depth when talking to Tim.
Trisomy 13 is what they said. Tim also said he didn't love that he and Paul, two men, were having the abortion discussion, but they cut that comment. If I'm remembering correctly, I think Josh Benson said something similar. Paul really doesn't get why that's a problem tho.
@@christinafedderke3751well, of course people who view a woman's body as the property of her husband won't see a problem with men discussing abortion.
For the majority of the history of the Christian church, no one read the Bible. Before the printing press, before translations, no one was a Christian according to Paul 😂 He is so incredibly uneducated
Paul’s comment about “why would Jesus want to spend the afterlife with someone who hates and rejects him” is so petty and absurd. He’s not like you Paul, he doesn’t live in judgment, contempt, and bitterness towards others. Those are sinful human traits, not divine ones.
For the time has come for Judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
I don’t think Paul has ever thought about what it would be like to grow up with a mother who didn’t want you and sees you as an inconvenience. That’s not trivial. Those babies who were aborted “for convenience” would have suffered and grown up with incredibly unhealthy psychology if they were forced to be born into that situation.
Paul and Morgan really do seem made for each other. Their complete lack of empathy for anyone pregnant and the queer community just….blows me away. They are SO young, and just so filled with contempt and disgust and hatred. How can they call themselves followers of Christ when they act like this?
The principle of “the purpose of a system is what it does” applies to fundamentalist religions opposing sex education and also having very high rates of church-protected sexual abuse (among Mormons and Southern Baptists, for example)
40:48 Paul, showing that Biblotry is considered core in his view of what makes a Christian
It’s so interesting how Paul puts his interpretation and his belief above everything else as truth.
Love your hair in this video!
Thank you! ☺️ watching it back I was worried I was giving Milena Ciciotti but I still like it 😂
Whenever Paul said "pre-born", I thought of the Atreides. Couldn't help it :D
Paul really struggles with the concept of logical fallacies lol
Morgan is such a hateful person. Like, that shit is alarming; the way her and Paul are obsessed with punishment + endorsing injustice. The way he smiled and she laughed when Tim described s*xual assault was chilling. I hope they get real help.
Paul represents exactly why I left the church. Tim (and b haney) represents exactly why I can’t and won’t write all Christians off. I feel like Paul and Morgan just wanted to invite people who they could dunk on, but they’re still giving a platform to progressive ideas and maybe a few hearts will be changed. And that’s a positive any way you’d spin it.
Tim: Do you think I'm a Christian?
Me: *laughs in Catholic* welcome to the club
As far as Jesus being “the only way”, you don’t have to know the name of the street you’re driving on to notice landmarks and get to where you need to go.
The way is Jesus is largely common sense: be good, be compassionate, be generous, treat others as you want to be treated, etc. Being “good enough to get into Heaven” is not really all that difficult or narrow. Well, it is definitely difficult at times, but it’s not difficult to RECOGNIZE. You don’t have to think of yourself as a Christian or know anything about Jesus to be a good person and be recognizable as “acting like Jesus” to someone who knows about him. Because it’s not new information.
It comes down to Paul’s inability to understand what is good and what makes something good or bad or neither. It’s why he’s obsessed with thinking gay people are a sin, because he fundamentally doesn’t understand what it means for something to be a sin or to be wrong or to be right. He’s idolizing the Bible so much that he’s forgotten the basic common sense knowledge that a thing that benefits others is a good and a thing that harms others is bad, and anything that does neither is neutral.
Bingo.
Paul is much like Fleabag, begging Hot Priest to “just tell me what to do”
yet Fleabag is a multidimensional character with the full array of human functions
Paul is just the worst person to have these types of conversations. He's so uneducated and closed-minded. Why even do this series? It's baffling.
It's not really shocking that Paul won't say Tim is a christian. Remember, unless you believe like he and Morgan does, Paul doesn't think your christian. They've both said it many times on their "show" if you believe differently then you're not a "REAL" christian whatever that means.
Paul shouldn't be gatekeeping anyway. He's the last person who should be deciding who is or isn't a Christian (or a person of any other religion for that matter).
Paul really has something against Grace and Mercy 😅
Morgan is so callous here just saying "well then you shouldn't have been having sex with them!" as though people should expect to be assaulted by someone they're having sex with. Sorry, but the way she comes off in these videos is like she doesn't really have any empathy for anyone outside of her experience.
The question I want him to ask Paul is “okay, so if your ideas are true, then what would be the point?”
Like, there is a clear point to God telling us to help the poor and love your neighbor and not to kill anyone etc. But what would be the point of God saying “by the way, only this type of person should get married. I’ve arbitrarily decided that this other type of person is no good and they shouldn’t be allowed to marry.” Why would God indicate something so clearly pointless? It’s like saying “my interpretation of scripture says that it’s a mortal sin for anyone with blue eyes to wear shoes on a Thursday afternoon”. When everything else has a clear point and is obviously telling us to do good things and not to do bad things, you have a LOT of explaining to do if you think you can show up out of nowhere and say that God is telling us that something random, harmless, and inconsequential (in the sense of “having no consequences) is not allowed for some mystical reason that we’re just not special enough to understand.
SHOCKING. I can’t believe Paul has such a narrow acceptance of other people’s Christianity. I see so little evidence of evangelicals like Paul and Morgan showing the love of Jesus. They are so strict but seem to miss the deep message (and obviously the nuance and contradictions) of the texts.
This right here is a prime example of how frustrating it gets for an intelligent person to communicate with someone who is ignorant they go round and round and get stuck in this box
they are afraid to challenge their brainwashed core belief that was taught to them and there is some like him that doesnt consider a person saved unless they are doing the praying/saving
as an intersex person i see this so often i request to be baptized and they because i didn't do the walk of embarrassment and get up front to tell my intimacy with Christ
"im not saved" or they see my breast and 5 oclock shadow that im un-saveable or cant be baptized even when im single and i have even had them question what meds i take
seriously intersex people often have to take hormones to stay healthy regardless of transition or not its like what should i wear today to please you? should i bind my chest to hide boobs or shave and wear makeup to cover my shadow that burns and burns after shaving...
I just want to know why paul thinks he should be able to tell someone whether or not they are a Christian.
Medically necessary is still a smaller part of abortions. But best (proven in other countries) to reduce abortion is sex ed (including consent) ; what about those why cannot afford an extra mouth to feed - and paying out cash for prenatal care and birth. Imagine if the parents didn't have to feel that it is abortion or bankruptcy.
Every time I think P&M have hit rock bottom they find a new low. Can't stand those two or anything they touch.
Ohhh man at 34 mark- he is implying that Tim is a false teacher- he is saying this so that he can dismiss the valid points that Tim is presenting- wow so obvious.
I just want to say that you are a Christian who is very much on the same page that I wish I could just have a coffee with a talk all things Creator and theology. And I think a lot of us think that. Thank you for being you and for your videos that are the next best thing :)
Gosh. I truly can’t handle the disingenuous laugh from Morgan and the easy ability that Paul just passively aggressively answers serious questions he disagrees with.
Athiest here with a question. Say a baby is born in rural Japan, is raised Shinto, never meets a Christian, lives a kind & generous life, and dies. Does that person go to Hell? Did God make that person? Does God make people that will go to Hell because they've never heard of Jesus? How do Fundies explain that? Do they think the Hebrew bible is the only religious text written centuries ago? I dont get it.
It has been a long time since I’ve practiced, but I vaguely remember being taught that (according to the Bible) if you lived as a good person and didn’t know of him, you would still be given the chance to chill in heaven if you chose to believe after he filled you in.
I think it's called common grace and different denominations say different things (most think God will be kind and just)
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans:2:14
24 HOURS WITH B HANEY!!!!!🙏🏼
(Continuing Commentary)
* Paul's trying to argue his anti-abortion beliefs from an illogical assumption! He's trying to give his argument more traction (which he's losing ground on pretty quickly)!
* Paul needs to face the points that Tim is pointing out! He's doubling down on his willful ignorance! He and Morgan said they were going to home-school their kids, so I think those areas are not going to be taught when the time is right!
* Paul is such a coward for cutting off the topic! Argue to the end, you hypocrite!!
* Paul's straw-man arguments are SO damn tiring! He's losing ground by the second, but he can't see it! Give it up, Dude!
* Paul doesn't really want to study and understand, he wants to have a vehicle to hold over people and be RIGHT all the time!
* "Keep an open mind"...First you have to OPEN YOUR MIND, Paul! It's like the saying goes: "Minds are like parachutes, they work best when they are OPEN!!"
* Paul is falling back to his concrete, thick-headed practice of "If you don't believe EXACTLY the way I do, then I don't think you're a Christian!"
* Paul would NOT PONDER ANYTHING Tim would say, he would brush them off and go about being his weak-egoed, narcissistic self!
* Paul's back-pedalling at the end is so sickening! It makes P&M look that more ridiculous!
16:13 no. The majority of humanity is hetero. The idea that affirming LGBT leads to undermining hetero relationships is weird. The old testament had a lot of issues with building up the nation, so yes maximum children.
I have a couple of thoughts here. First of all: as a former Christian, you are one of the only Christian creators that I follow. Your takes are fair and I love your videos.
Second: I’m intrigued about Paul’s take at the end-does he believe that people can lose their salvation, or does he believe that they’re not actually saved? The way he tried to get Tim to explain what salvation means to him, it almost seems like he thinks there are works that have to be completed to become an “actual Christian”?
16:13 Paul, would you ever dare to ask if the doctrine of your childhood could be the false teachers? If guarding against false teachers we need to test all, not just those who disagree with me.