The Six Demos Of Fallout
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- I talk about the six different demos we made for Fallout, starting almost two years before the game shipped.
To fully understand the context of this video, I recommend you watch these three videos before watching it, since I reference concepts in them:
GNW & TIG: • GNW & TIG, My OS Abstr...
Implementing Randomness: • Implementing Randomness
Crunch: • Crunch
![[UA] NAVI проти G2 Esports | Blast Premier Fall Final](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QWlIm4FGESQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Your insight is so valuable!
Thank you so much for taking the time to answer stuff from us!
It means a lot to me to hear you talk about the origins of Fallout. The game is so special to me, and I can tell it is to you as well, so these videos have been such a breath of fresh air!
Thank you so much, Timothy!
Great to see you here Mantis.
TIm has really been blessing us with insight this year.
I'm very grateful for it.
Much appreciation to both of you!
Didn't you mean to say that Fallout is SPECIAL?
get back to making feature length videos of fallout content >:(
I keep reading the title as “The Six Demons of Fallout”
tbh it's the reason I clicked on this video lmao
I did too and was confused but intrigued but once I read it right I was only intrigued lmao.
Me too
I remember that 6th demo vividly. I didn't have a PC at the time, but a friend of mine downloaded it and showed it to me when I was at their house. It was kinda neat, I remember playing it for maybe 20 mins and being done with it. The next morning they slept in so I turned on their computer and gave it another shot... and found the locked fridge. Literally spent I don't know how long trying and failing to pick the lock before starting over and making lockpick a Tag skill, got the fridge open, and found a MINIGUN!!! Which I could barely use... so I started the demo over again! Around this time my friend woke up, laughed at me for playing the demo, at which point I asked if they'd found the minigun yet, and just like that we were both hooked. After that I literally bought a PC specifically to install Fallout on, all because of a minigun in a fridge - I was pissed when I got to junktown and the minigun wasn't there... right up until I realized that if you kill/let the sherriff die, you can loot their store.
A game publisher where the authority of their marketing team completely superceded the authority of game producers and directors, to the point of ignoring the simple logic of man-hours spend producing demos at their behest would slow down the development timeline.
I'm sure Interplay must have had a very long and successful existence, since they assigned the most importance to most important people.
Tim, somewhere in a box of random stuff in my Mom's garage is the floppy of the demo you put on our family computer in late 1996(?). It was just the intro/rat caves, Shady Sands, Vault 15, and maybe the raider camp. I copied what you put on and played it for about a year, over and over, until the retail copy came out.
I see Fallout and I click immediately. I hope you will talk more in depth about VtmB someday ❤
same which is sad cause he moved on from fallout 30years ago and has done alot more and better things
Few people played that compared to fallout.
The majority of his videos should be about fallout, the majority of his audience has never heard of the vampire games
(Inb4 someone tries to say it's not a niche cult hit. Just like fallout was before Bethesda)
@@FedSmoker64 you are wrong, IF YOU DONT LIKE WHAT CAIN DOES THEN YOU ARENT A CAIN FAN. Think before you type
@@leroygardner8529 Never said I didn't like it.
You're a IRL 1 Intelligence build, huh?
@@FedSmoker64well everyone takes the gifted perk, so he’s gotta at least be INT 2
I still remember downloading and playing the 6th demo you guys made on a public computer at my university's theater group office because their Macs had floating processor units and mine didn't. 😂
Thank you for all of your hard work back then, it's given me a lifelong love of a fantastic franchise.
(Btw, the "spiritual successor to Wasteland" line worked, since I had spent countless hours playing Wasteland during high school, and still revisit every so often, to this day)
I remember the demo because it was the era of dial-up modems and it took forever for me to download. I'm pretty sure I went for a long walk in the woods that day with my mom, all the while praying nothing happened to interrupt the download.
But yeah, as I've said on past videos, the game became a must-buy for me after playing that demo. Exactly my kind of game, with my kind of humor.
I remember playing the Junktown demo CD and feeling like it was different from any game I'd ever played. I bought the full game at Hastings, filled out the comment card, mailed it in and won a copy of Baldur's Gate 1. Great times!
a free badass rpg for what’s basically public playtesting?
I read the title as "The Six Demons of Fallout"! While this isn't what I expected it's closer than you might think.
Same xD
I went with the game to E3 in Atlanta in the release year... I don't remember who was supposed to go, but I filled in. I sat there all day in that hell of loud noises and showed the game to journalists and buyers. I think I had what was the current full version of the game at the time, but I do remember the demo version that was just the Radscorpion Cave and Junktown.
Thank you for braving E3, Evan. I never did. And I don’t think we ran most of the demos through QA. Certainly not the non-interactive ones.
So...
1. November 1995 Internal Demo(Clear out Radscorpions using flamethrower). Maybe that one screenshot from the press pack is from here?
2. May 1996 E3 Demo (Shady Sands/Junktown Radscorpion quest with items. Self Playing Short Demo Start). Might explain the old Elder art?
3. July 1996 ETS Demo (Completely unknown, likely similar to the previous one). Any record of this?
4. August 1996 Press Demo (Video File and Press Release Showcase) This might be out there? Can't confirm.
5. October 1996 Press Demo (No clue, but similar to the previous one in being non-interactive)
6. April 1997 CD Release Demo (Scrapheap Demo, widely available). Everyone knows this one. Also less than 2 months after the change from GURPS to ASPCEIL and less than one month after the change from ASPCEIL to SPECIAL.
I can't find trace of the other 4 that should be public. The 2nd one specifically sounds fun.
I misread this as the Six DEMONS of Fallout and thought the lore got amped up to 1000X
I bought the game because of the demo.
(The one with the two gangs.)
any chance of recovering previous demos?
find an old PC Gamer CD
I first played a fallout as a demo, and it was junktown. The player started with a smg, and all the guards had miniguns.
It was crazy fun.
I also remember my local gaming store playing some random fallout video on loop. No memory of what was in the video.
I've been looking into making a mod to move Necropolis and it's random encounter tiles to the lore accurate spot in Bakersfield(which also seemingly fits better in game. Set says the Cathedral is dead south when in-game that would be the Glow, and the Mutant Invasion hitting Necropolis second makes way more sense if it's in Bakersfield).
Scrapheap would unironically fit perfectly in the old spot from both a lore and general game scaling perspective(IE: Slightly harder than The Hub, but easier than Necropolis or the Mutant HQs or the Brotherhood). Sort of like a mid-game version of the Khans, a mostly combat centric location with a few side quests. Auto weapons, but the weaker auto weapons. All armored, but not super high end armor. One or two guys with minguns, but not much ammo and they have crappy armor and go down easy, so not nearly as dangerous as a super mutant or paladin.
Plus moving the Dogmeat quest here means you don't get two companions in Junktown, and if you complete the area without killing everyone you get the location of Necropolis marked on your map by that one peasent at the gate.
What's one of your biggest fallout related regrets?
Specifically, story wise, or... A feature you could never get working in on time?
Thanks for sharing Tim! :)
Also, small (rather large actually lol) nerdy question, I noticed although set in a perpetual 1950's future world alt timeline, I see alot of modern firearms in both fallout 1+2 and new Vegas, they appear as "shotgun" or "varmint rifle" as an example. I really like your fallout, I am weirdly so sick of seeing a 50's aesthetic if that makes sense, fallout 2 focused on a tribal aesthetic, very Mad Max'sque. That to me was very realistic while still being interesting and unique.
Did the 60's and 70's 80's etc playout? Like did Duran Duran, the Beatles... Exist? You would think with hundreds of years, especially coming of the back of the industrial revolution and 2 world wars, music and culture and technology would advance in a similar way, the firearms and technology do this, they go above and beyond, the plasma caster for instance reminds me of 1950's world of tomorrow videos that you can watch. I'm sure this was intentional, but I'm so genuinely surprised culture and music was not expanded. I mean, they where desperate and dumb, the world I mean, we need oil and uranium so desperatly we are willing to fight a campaign against our enemies where we are going to burn at 3 times the normal rate. Solar? Boo! I mean, I suppose we see these similar effects today playing out don't we, lobbiests saying coal is as actually cool with an extra A for awesome hey kiddos that's rAdicool... Here's 4 billion dollars.
I think I have been playing too much of the Bethesda fallout, it's so rich, it's like eating an entire box of Twinkies I feel so sick lol.
It feels like a theme park. They seem to play it way to safe "oh yeah the 50's right... That's the foundation" but to me that shoots yourself in the foot, it means things can only go a certain way or etc. I understand why they take all the real fallout things out, but the shock value really adds to how bleak the world is, I remember reading The Road in highschool and every few chapters something demonstrably horrible would happen, but the character would not dwell on it as he has long inhabited this world.
With fallout 1, evidence of the world being "50's" were like... Minimal not like up in your face if that makes sense, the world WAS 50's but due to an nuclear Armageddon and hundreds of years of storms and micro conflicts, major conflicts with factions, it was hard to figure out what the world... Was, and that's great, there is room for the imagination. I think the isometric graphics really help fallout, the soundtrack does alot of the heavy lifting in the first half of the game to me.
A solution/theory I came up with was, similar to how we with sections of history where we may not know so much, historians sort of fill in the gaps, if you could time travel and talk to those people, they would say "what??? Throw babies off of our temples? No, nonono...we had a small festival once a year called the "offspring ceremony" where we would show our gods their new children by holding them up at the highest point of our society like in the lion king" maybe not those exact words but you get the picture.
In the fallout world, the 50's happened, but due to poor records being kept, certain history books being burned up until the 50's section.... the folks who are currently around think that everyone was listening to 50's media all the time, and they loved diners and drive ins and Elvis etc. Like the world is that torn apart after the bombs that time itself has been fractured and the survivors are left Jetsoning and Flintstoning what life was like for those who lived before.
Or a more direct way of thinking in regards to my noticing of modern firearms, because war never changes... After the bombs fell, and after factions could withstand a dedicated arms dealer/manufacturing, they would take these 1900's-1950's schematics and "modernize" them, thus leading to designs we see today, as we have firearms today due to trial and error, and due to this is the best way to make X-Y, it's only logical they would arrive at the same destination.
I mean, if I could boil my entire questions down into one small dumb one.
Why haven't they figured out how to make grunge music in 100 years from now lol. Was Kurt Cobain assassinated for promoting anti-establishment ideas that went against the god fearing Americans ways of life.
I remember this demo, as it took me ~9 hours to download. and internet was quite expensive back then. 20 mb it was, iirc.
and then I played it for days, and found like 5 different ways to finish it, which was mind-blowing to me. as well as a day
ight cycle, which wasn't a common thing in games
I read "The Six Demons of Fallout."
Ohh boy did I read it "The Six Demons Of Fallout"
given what I've heard from other people in the tech industry, all projects should be given several months of extra cushion to account for salespeople meddling.
Am I the only one who misread the title as "the six demons of fallout"
Man, these stories just keep getting ever more indispensable to those of us who're working towards that kind of role. Seriously, can not thank you enough for these uploads.
Marketing. Marketing never changes.
Thank you for all your content! You’re one of my favourite people to listen to as I do my work. I’d love to know your thoughts on game difficulty and the purpose it serves, especially in different game genre contexts.
I thought the title said demons
Marketing:"Make a demo but it can't delay the game."
Dev: "That isn't how time works..."
Marketing: "Deal with it."
I think I know part of the reason Interplay isn't around anymore.
Love these videos! I'd be curious to know how the critical hit/miss system works in Fallout. What determines what the critical hit does, and how does the game decide when a body part gets crippled, for example. I've been replaying the game recently, and I get the sense that it's fairly complex.
You can learn about Fallout criticals here: ua-cam.com/video/CvVWp8DmD9I/v-deo.html
@@CainOnGames Thanks! I don't know how I managed to miss that video. 😓
I’m a happy owner of the PC Gammer magazine Fallout Demo Disc. Would love a way to get the aggressive and foul language quotes as a patch for Fallout 1. I played this demo as a kid before buying the big Fallout game box and the big Fallout 2 game box. 📦 Great memories
12:30 On the subject of violence that is acceptable in some places and not in others, in hindsight it's remarkable how the original two Fallouts not only allow you to kill children, but give you nightmarishly graphic depictions of the damage you did when you landed a critical hit. It's surreal to reflect that in the mid-90s someone at Interplay sat down and made an animation for a child dancing around the screen on fire, in case someone wanted to use a flamethrower on one.
Deus Ex also had this. There was some very, very black comedy to be gained from firing a white phosphorous rocket at a particularly annoying child in Hong Kong.
As far as I can tell, at least from a marketing perspective, you could _never_ get away with that in a modern game. That era ended sometime after the year 2000. Every Fallout after 3 has made any children immune to damage. The version of Fallout sold on GoG also have the children removed, and require a patch to restore them, even in the United States.
Of course, I later heard that Europe forced you to take out all the children in the first two games even at the time, and I reflected on what good fortune it is to be an American. We might not have public health care, but our government let's us play video games with lurid descriptions of a child's eye exploding in the socket after you successfully roll a critical hit with a sniper rifle.
A fair trade. 'MERICA!
enjoy it while it lasts
Senseless violence and war have been sanitized in our society to the point that the vast majority of us are probably completely numb to it and would be shocked to our foundations to see it through the eyes of the veterans and first responders who all too often wind up traumatized for life after being exposed to it. I'm honestly not sure if media violence should be less or even more graphic than it is if for no other reason than to convey the true horror of it.
Yeah, I am with you. A game is a game, and if it is one of murder and mayhem, I want to be able to do it all. Always that thought in the back of my head playing any game and how every NPC is an adult, pretty shitty. Not enough animal cruelty, either. Probably because, even in movies, everyone cries when a dog dies, but wont bat an eye when hundreds of adults are brutally murdered. Humans are pretty twisted with that brainwashing, imo. Probably the war machine that wants us to only think of murdering adults, even though drone strikes indiscriminately take out children all the time, they are just numb since they don't see the damage first-hand.
That's a funny point about the "from the creators of Fallout" marketing blurb. I've seen people complain about Outer Worlds being advertised "from the creators of Fallout and the developers of Fallout New Vegas" but frankly, a)it's pretty accurate (maybe not the specific people who made New Vegas but the same company) and b) if you're marketing a game you want to shout out the games the devs are best known for. What are they going to say, "from the developers of Storm Of Zehir"?
That Wasteland comparison made me think:
How actually common that "marketing way" to look at things via "It looks/plays/feels like X"?
It should hurt overall creativity if people, not only marketing, can operate only by comparing games to previous games.
I understand why you crunched, but that doesn't make it right.
I once worked for a project manager and while I was working I was talking to my HR manager about the timeline and the milestones we need to hit. He was surprised at my knowledge when I told him that project managers generally build in a time buffer and that the milestone in the timeline is unrealistic and that I hope the project manager has built in such a time buffer.
In general, PMs don't tell team members how big the buffer is because they think members are more productive when they don't know and are stressed about the schedule.
To put it bluntly, they lie to their teammates, lol.
This crunch is a no-go for me. Live with your mistakes and your mismanagement, because I can't ruin my free time and my health for it.
Cheers!
Talks like this, always makes me remember a sad truth. Because of tin schedule, rushs, pression, corp. greed, etc... we did not get the real version of FO2 and NV, those two got tamed by things that mined the chances of us getting the real deal. and maybe FO was plagued by that too I see.
The "Yojimbo" demo in Scrapheap was my Fallout start.
A great man once told me, " a leader isn't someone who tells you what to do, and then you do it. A leader is someone who speaks, and you listen to them because you believe in what they believe." I think you working on Fallout is sort of similar to this, people playing what you made and believing in that vision they saw in your game and wanting to make it fruition. And I think that is beautiful.
As someone who's been in marketing for 15+ years, I'm genuinely amazed as to how much control they had. In my industry, we couldn't push anything or set demands. All we can do I try to prepare in parallel what the product team gives us
It's a hundred times worse now. Demanding demos from the development team seems pretty tame by comparison to what's happening in the industry now, but Tim probably doesn't feel he can comment on such things being a professional in the industry himself.
Marketing departments and/or the inner marketers of those in charge at some studios and publishers are allowing the profit motive to drive critical design decisions, the presence of the BoS in W. Va. being a prime example considering Taggerdy's Thunder was specifically designed to be a unique faction in the Fallout franchise the very same as the Responders. I wouldn't be working in a major game development studio for very long because I'd constantly be protesting such ill-advised decisions. They're obviously not creative decisions. Ergo, they are in no way wise, but then an awful lot people seem to think the words 'wise' and 'clever' are synonymous.
42 mentions of demo in journal, 6 demoes of Fallout, 4 + 2 = 6. Oh my god... What a coincidence.
Ah, yes, the Marketing Department. People that do the least to create a game, but want to have the most to say about its creation. They make you go circles to appease their every whim, and when the game is delayed because of that, they complain that you didn't work hard enough.
It's so easy to boss others around when you're not the one doing all the work.
this channel has been a lot of fun to listen to as a fallout fun. Made me want to finnaly try Masquerade and Arcanum
Pretty sure I got that sixth demo on a demo CD, that CD may also have come in the box of another full game, but its been too long I don't remember. Def made me want to get the full game.
My dyslexia read the title as The Six Demons Of Fallout thought what is this Oh... still interesting
Oh wow Mr. Cain they put a lot of pressure, its like really thing which always follow people in any corp architecture.
Hey Tim, did you happen to hear about Fallout of Nevada, or maybe even tried it?
i read the title as "the six demons of fallout"
Same.
Haha yes!
Haha I thought this said “The 6 demons of fallout” at first
I remember the demo being Junktown....I'm sure.
That last demo, "The demo", was better than some standalone RPGs.
thankyou for linking the 3 videos I need to re watch
Why I read it as "6 demons of Fallout"? 😀
I definitely didn't read the title as demons of fallout
FWIW that Junktown Mac demo was the coolest thing my 12 year old mind had ever seen back then. I remember downloading it at random from some ftp-directory knowing nothing about it and having my mind blown by the setting, violence, and cool RPG mechanics. Not having seen stuff like Mad Max probably helped, it was my first intro to anything post apocalyptic.
I had no clue there where ever was a public demo for old fallout, and Demos in general that's Pretty Cool I thought game demos did not become a thing until early 2000s lol Thanks for the story Tim! as always its great to hear your stories.
I miss the days of demos sometimes, but I know it's for the best that they go away in most cases.
Still, nothing excited me more as a kid than getting a demo disc in a magazine or something. Getting a dozen or more games for (sorta) free was basically an extra Christmas.
Now of course we have return policies that are pretty generous, so the only time you usually see them is for promotional events.
I have a copy of the Computer Gaming World demo, it doesn't run under Windows 10. I did run it ages ago on Windows XP though.
Fallout video. Good stuff
We need a video on marketing. These people seem hellbent on whimsical decision-making and impeding productivity.
I think that was my comment, as I asked about the Scrapheap demo, and it gets a whole video?! I think I'm falling for you Tim! Thank you
Tim Cain cinematic universe
Now that you and your friends and the Fallout license are all under the same roof it’s time to gather Boyarsky and Avellone et al and make the turn based Fallout game that you’ve been wanting to make for the last 20 years.
Yep marketing and the public really hurt games now since they make people have an idea of what a game will be even before it comes out and then are made when it’s not something that wasn’t promised in the first place.
Thanks a lot for sharing all these stories!!! I it would be a really great book if you compile all of them into a text form.
neeeeeeeed footage
Optimization is the root of all evil, that should be the name for a BBEG in a game haha..
Demos are so uncommon now I thought this was going to be about demographics.
These Fallout videos are the only reason I subscribed to this channel
Thanks Tim! I appreciate you digging that up!
Instant classic video. Thank you Tim :D
I read the title as "Six demons of Fallout" and I was like "that sounds intriguing" xD
14:06 Literal 'devil behavior'.
6 demons!
I misread the title and thought it was "6 Demons of Fallout" and was like WTF??
15:43 Just like 'government'. And you put up with it. That's why we are where we are. I'm not calling out Timothy here. This applies to all of us.
Sometimes someone from above makes a decision they have no idea of what the implications are and everyone has to just 'deal with it'. Yeah... I can relate to that... I can very much relate to that. Thanks Tim! You've been an inspiration to me for approx. 2/3 of my life. Love your stories and please continue doing what you're doing.