New M390MK Knife Steel?
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- Опубліковано 8 чер 2024
- Microtech announced a new knife steel - M390MK. Different than regular M390. What is it? What are the properties going to be? Should you be excited?
Written version of this information with references: knifesteelnerds.com/2023/02/1...
00:00 Intro
00:19 Description from Microtech
02:04 The Name
02:30 Composition
06:27 Effect of carbon
07:37 Evaluating Microtech Claims
09:31 Summary
10:24 Patreon and Outro
Also painting flames on the side of the blade makes it perform better
Don’t forget about putting some speed holes in there
AS Orcs would say "Red uns go faster!"
Would additional fan cooling increase edge retention?
Adds an extra 2 degrees of HRC
If you lazer etch the side, it could bring the rc down, depending on the temp of the lazer.
It's great to have you to clarify all the new weird stuff that companies come up with in order to peak interest of users. Thank you.
Much like their proprietary handle screws, I’ve got a gut feeling this won’t change the performance in the knife in the slightest, but it will cause a debate for years to come.
Probably. It's a small sample size but Microtech's heat treats aren't going to win any prizes. Maybe they should have looked over that part instead of asking Böhler to mod a steel.
@@circedge SO MUCH THIS! How I wish they'd optimize the heat treats on their blades (M390 especially!) to bring that edge retention up! That M390 especially is performing nowhere near its potential and that's a real shame. I'd even pay extra for that if it's done well enough!
I think instead of production companies changing the steel composition of M390 they should first focus on doing an extremely consistent and optimized heat treat on basic M390. I do like how when Spyderco did Spy-27 they were very open about its make up and what the goal of the steel was, it would be nice to see the same from M390MK.
As always thanks for all you do in helping us see the difference in performance and marketing.
Agreed. All they needed to do was a better heat treat that wasnt 58rc like they currently do with m390. In cardboard cut tests this did poorly.
I dont know their specific protocol that they use for their standard m390. Does anyone know what factory they use for heat treat?
If they were going for toughness, polishing and some stainlessness, why not use rwl-34?
@@tacticalcenter8658 I think they just heat treat everything soft to make it cheaper to machine. they run their Magnacut at 58-60 too. Lets be real, Microtech is more about looking tacticool than having a highly functional product.
@@arrowheadguys7637 yup. exactly. And they demand high prices for low value. Sad really. People getting ripped off.
@@tacticalcenter8658 Yeah, not to mention the owner is a complete slimeball. Thats usually a pretty good sign not to buy a product for me tho
@@arrowheadguys7637 remember when they copied the zt knife. Then Kershaw came out with a natrix and then the owner of microtech said some very bad things. Someone screenshot it before it got deleted and a huge thread showed up on BF about it.
Or that time he had his model girlfriend say she was working on a custom with him and it was pure lies. That video I think is still around.
Could go on and on about that guy.
I look forward to TransparentKnives’ HRC test and MT’s inevitable cease and desist.
Microtech continues to innovate their industry-leading hype machine.
Perhaps MK stands for Marketing.
I think that with the impressive results that many people are seeing from production knives in Magna-Cut (I think Cedric and Ada has it testing really close to steels like K390 in rope cut tests) it may be hard for Micro-Tech to call themselves top of the line when they are using the same steel that is increasingly common in knives that are in a much lower price range.
That and M390’s reputation has become pretty tarnished by several companies using sub-par heat treats, so it may just be a way to differentiate themselves from that.
Which companies were using bad heat treats?
@@Jo_Blo Just about every production company hardens it to 58
@@svn5994 worthless 'answer', why even comment, fo back to reddit with that;)
They make a hard use folder with a super strong lock with a brittle steel. Makes sense.
I love the knowledge! Thanks bro!
Great information in the steel analysis process. Thank you.
I'm skeptical about how much the "tweak" would improve the steel performance compared to a dialed-in HT protocol. Sounds a lot like marketing. But will be interesting to see if they release some more information about the process in the near future.
It's possible it could literally just be tighter tolerances in the upper end of the normal range which wouldn't do anything beyond making it easier to dial in the HT protocol and get the most out of every batch.
Look for a video called microstructure matters.
Big shout out to Dr. Larrin for answering my question I emailed him. You're a real deal steel hero
My guess is that they were offered a heat of M390 that fell outside of bohler's specs at a reduced price so they bought it. Now they are just blowing smoke up our butts about it.
I carry an ultratech and think that microtech makes a great knife, but I also think that they blow a lot of smoke at us.
MK, abbreviation for “marketing”
You had me at calibration and statistically. ❤
“At Microtech we just think we’re better than anybody else mmmkkayy ? (Mr.Mackey South Park) 😂
I could listen to this all day 😅
Thanks for the video! If I were a betting man, I’d say it’s slightly more carbon and that’s it. A marketing gimmick. If they really cared about having better edge retention, as you said, they can heat treat regular ol’M390 at 1-2 points higher.
I know when I used to put a baseball card in the spokes of my bicycle tire it definitely sounded faster. And it felt faster... but I'm not quite sure if it was faster😁
Thanks for sharing Dr. Thomas sir . I always smile when I sharpen and the blade skids right across the stone tells me it’s good. I know it’s hard for sure . Some of the cheaper steels I have run down a ceramic rod bite easy and leave a mark right away and some don’t bite as easily . That means it’s a hard steel ? Thanks I’m advance . We re all rooting for you 👏👊. Magnacuuuuut
That South Park reference is gold. Well done.
Latest update from: EDCandLace:
Out of the stitch and msi I had and sold the following day because of both having HRCs in the 58s and sharpening about 50 of them in the last 3 months... they are SOFT, it's soft enough that it is noticeably gummy on the stones. Plus the action on both of them is mushy as hell. I received both of mine in the same day, had them poked later that day and sold the next morning lol. If you buy a knife to use and expect serviceable edge retention then you will not be happy.
Luvthemknives tested one of them at 59rc. Some other people have tested as low as 57rc. Cardboard cut testing with 59rc showed that one to be 218ft of cardboard cut in a 1inch section. In comparison to Spyderco pm2 at 60rc 280ft and a pm2 at 62rc 400ft. WE Knives at 60rc did 230ft.
@@tacticalcenter8658Thanks for sharing this! I knew from Outpost 76 that Microtech edge retention was poor so it was good seeing some more data on this.
The results you shared above and the 50 knives that EDCandLace sharpened, do you know if they were all M390?
It seems that this issue is mostly with M390 and not isolated to just Microtech either. Quite a few other brands do M390 poorly. I think it's a finicky steel to HT properly to get the best edge retention out of it.
Reason I ask is because I also have some Microtech knives I purposely sought out in their Elmax and D2 steel mainly because I was purposely trying to avoid their M390 because I was aware of this issue. I was hoping their Elmax performed better and perhaps wasn't as finicky to HT and thus we'd get better performance out of it. I fear I'm going to be disappointed though.
I have yet to run any edge retention tests on mine yet as I'm still reprofiling the edges on them, but I should get them Rockwell tested in the meantime and see how hard or soft they are.
They did their m390 at 58rc with poor performance in cardboard cut testing. All they had to do was change the protocol to get better edge retention.
Looks like they just wanted to polish the blade easier?
Jim Skelton dragged a 62rc m390 knife behind his car for god sakes. It didn't break at all. Maybe they just need to learn how to heat treat and provide microstructure.
Everyone should experience the joy of trying to polish M390, it builds character like an old timey Victorian era dad horsewhipping you for shaming your family linage by being a cutler
Rwl34 is a decent alternative. If done to an acceptable level it would out perform what they currently use and be easier to polish.
@@tacticalcenter8658 Well its sort of a funny spot they've ended up in, because if you want something that polishes nicely you basically throw out anything with Vanadium in it because it'll fight you all the way down and win. A good, very high finish will also give you a bit better stain resistance as well against the lower end of the acid liquids and make cleaning easier- but you also don't consider any of the high alloy, modern stainless steels much for that category either.
What they tend to do is have really exceptional edge holding (because Vanadium) and not usually a lot of toughness on some of those if you want stain resistance with lots of chromium or other elements like moly and nickel. Like there's honestly nothing wrong with M390's edge holding if its treated right it is exceptional, its not hugely tough with a higher hardness and the stain resistance is definitely ok.
But you're sort of never going get a really high polish/mirror finish on it.
I dunno, they seem to want the cachet of using a good steel like 390 because the kids like that for sales, but they're asking some things of it which its sort of just not ever going to perform well at.
@@krissteel4074 the have to have it because it won't sell without it.
MICRO KOMBAT!!!!
Thanks for the info, Dr. Larrin!
Thank you, Dr. Larrin, for the details on M390MK. Do you think it's problematic from the perspective of transparency that companies want these "tweaked" versions of known steel compositions? Or is it transparent enough that the final tweaked version is presumably within the tolerances/specs of regular M390 that consumers can know what they're getting?
I will try to stick to metallurgy and let others debate that
I think the obvious answer here is that the tweak in composition aids in achieving similar results with more lax protocol during treatment and grinding. The giveaway is the claim that it helps with polishing.
We have seen this with CRK and s35vn and also fallkniven's CoS. They have higher grindability and higher tolerance to heat during grinding with otherwise little benefit.
tldr: artificial hype for an already hyped steel
Could you please do a video comparing VG10W and VG10Wolf (apparently even more Tungsten) that Fallkniven uses?
I would love to see a breakdown of Fallkniven steel and their marketing. I am VERY skeptical of CoS steel and, in personal experience, it's much worse than Vg10
Thank you for the info. Does anyone know what their heat treatment protcol and average hardness is for their M390? My experience with Microtechs M390 is that it loses it´s edge quickly and resharpens poorly. But that could be on my particular knife or edge that i run on it. Factory edge performed terribly though.
Thanks for the great work Larrin!
I'm waiting for a Dr larrin Thomas forged,treated and finished knife on the market! I would definitely buy one to put it through it's pace's! 👍 Who's with me lmao.
Have you looked at K490? I haven’t found any good articles on it yet but Lionsteel has been using it a little bit
Maybe just a carburating atmosphere surface treatment?
I would love you to talk about the science of forge welding. I think it is still a very inconsistent practice to do even if it is not your first time and maybe talk about how to forge weld stainless steels, what somehow seems to be the best guarded secret of the knife making community seeing only information about welding Stainless to carbon to stainless in a san mai pattern but never a pure stainless billet.
You'd think that they'd want to increase toughness, if anything, given the size/shape of most of their blades....
One thing is for sure. M390mk shows rust spots within a few days of carrying. Something my other m390 knives haven't done.
Heat treat and blade finish has a great effect on level of corrosion resistance. 14C28N, a steel speced by Kershaw for increased corrosion resistance, is shipped by Petrified Fish and sometimes Civivi in bead blast finish which is well known to cause rust spots. So blade finish and rockwell hardness could be detrimental to even highly corrosion resistant steels.
Essential oils
DIAMOND - When facets are polished onto a diamond it creates a very, very fine powder. What if you mix that powder into the metal that forms the cutting edge of a blade?
im sorry i comment off topic but i just encountered a very strange phenomenon
i was casually sanding a broken file to make a knife out of it (i know its too hard and brittle but just for fun)
and i saw my nail clipper and i thought "i wonder how soft the handle of the nail clipper is"
it scathes!!!!! ???
i checked on my mora and it files it just fine...
my nail clipper is "uriel" brand
could it be that a nail clipper is super hard?!!?!
i tried to google heat treatment of nail clippers and it said they heat it to 1000 degrees and then cool it to water tempreture
and then they heat it to 180 degrees...?
would nail clipper handles make good stainless steel knives? they fit nice in the pocket at least...
What if they actually decreased the carbon content, thus improving corrosion resistance and polishability? Could the increased edge retention be explained by an increase in toughness and not hardness?
Still seems to me, as you observed, that the best improvement to M390 would be HT process improvement. I weary of tweak after tweak to steel composition with no discernible benefit.
What is your favorite steel, other than Magnacut?
I like AEB-L and 14C28N
In my experience in slightly tweaked steels most people aren't going to notice a difference.
To my knowledge, Microtech heat treats everything to 58-60. So yeah, edge retention could be improved with a better heat treat and I doubt there will be any measurable difference in M390MK heated treated at 58-60.
Show me a microtech over 59rc. They really should just use a different steel like rwl34.
@@tacticalcenter8658 I should clarify, thats the spec I commonly see referenced for their heat treats, and yes I'm aware they hang on the low side of the spec.
They can't use RWL34 because its not "premium" enough. But yes I agree that if you want to run steel soft use a steel that doesn't loose all its benefits when run at that hrc.
@@arrowheadguys7637 rwl34 is premium, its just not high wear premium. Every custom maker that does high polish knives use rwl34. And its also expensive and made in Sweden or whatever. It is similar indeed to cpm-154 but those guys more to it than that.
@@tacticalcenter8658 You'll find most of the steels custom makers lean towards would not be accepted on a "high end production" knife, mostly due to reputation and perception. I've seen a custom heat treated RWL34 knife perform with better edge retention than what soft M390 will do, but of course Microtech would run it soft too so it'd be even worse than their soft M390.
@@arrowheadguys7637 true
You know back in high school we walked through college booths to see if any piqued our interest. None did for me at the time, my interests were/are blacksmithing and mineralogy. If I had known metallurgy was more exciting I may have actually opened that college's brochure back in the day.
MK = Moar Karbon?
It seems plausible that Microtech could buy M390 that has carbon with tighter-specs AND couple that with improved HT.
This is gonna be good!
Edit: Absolute Gold:
“What we did is, uh, we’ve been enjoying the, you know, the Böhler products now for a good long while. And um, you know we’ve been buying it billet at a time so our our our steel consumption has been when we place our orders we, we’re already planning for 2025. So, as we’re making our billets, you know, the engineers came back to us and said, ‘Hey would you like to, you know, if we were to tweak this just a little bit is there anything you’d like to see a little bit better in the steel.’ And it’s like oh my God the the M390 is as good as it gets as far as I’m concerned, but maybe a little bit better edge dexterity, or edge holding ability, maybe a little bit better utility, and some other little attributes. So, they were able to tweak the chemistry enough for us to just give us a little bit of extra icing, or a little bit of extra, you know, you know, a little extra spice. I don’t know how else to say it, but you know it’s not like out in left field; it’s still M390, but it is a tweak modification to what we’re currently using, and it’s called the M390MK and it is exclusive to Microtech.”
One correction: he uses the word more "ductility" instead of "utility."
But yeah AM is so full of crap
I WANT TO BE EXCITED BUT IM NOT. ID RATHER THEY JUST PROMISED BETTER HEAT TREATS. I DONT NEED A NEW STEEL I NEED TO SEE THE INDUSTRY FOLLOW SUIT ON HIGHER HRC LIKE THEY HAVE WITH MAGNACUT. THERES LITERALLY TONS OF M390 OUT THERE NOW THAT UNDER PERFORMS.
What are MT HRC s on m390usually like? I’ve heard that some manufacturers outsource their grinding and it costs more if higher than 62, no idea where I heard it. Not directed at microtech.
Any publicity is good especially if free.
Or they could have just consulted Brian @ Transparentknives to do a BBB spyderco like collaboration.
All I know is my ultratech chipped from light work use where my cypher 2 did not
Hardness results from LTK are in. 58.9rc.
Lmao
The more i use my k390 Spyderco, the more I realize this is all the steel I need until I become an open sea diver or fisherman
I may be wrong in my understanding but doesn't increased hardness alone improve edge holding and corrosion resistance in M390? You only mentioned edge holding but I thought I read somewhere that it does help with corrosion.
Higher hardness does not mean higher corrosion resistance, no. In general one of the tradeoffs with steel is that higher hardness usually means reduced corrosion resistance (when comparing steels). For a given steel, a heat treatment that results in higher hardness can sometimes also mean increased corrosion resistance, by using a higher austenitizing temperature. Increasing carbon in a steel for higher hardness leads to a reduction in corrosion resistance.
@@KnifeSteelNerds You literally just told me no and yes in the same answer. Lol
Considering Microtech, and many other companies, aim for 59-61 which is the power end of the austenitizing temperature range with a 300-350 degree temper. In an correct based on what you said. Increasing Austenitizing temperature to the higher end thus hitting 62-64 HRC with a 300 degree temper would improve both corrosion resistance and edge holding.
This would give the results they claim they want from M390. Where increasing carbon, or whatever they did, wouldn't give all 3 improvements in M390MK.
@@dark_gravity_edc a lower temper temperature will leave more chromium in solution. A higher temperature will form carbides and less chromium in solution.
This is also displayed on Bohlers site for m390 iirc.
Ive never seen a microtech above 59rc.
We also don't know what protocol they actually use to heat treat it. So its not as easy as change one aspect and get x.
I generally see certain blade finishes show corrosion... Like bead blasting.
@@dark_gravity_edc "59-61 which is the power end of the austenitizing temperature..."
Huh?
"In an correct based on what you said."
Wat?
@@dark_gravity_edc go2 in$ta and $e∆rch solo_designer. A post on Se¶tember 13th 2015. You will see Reate's protocol. Next $e∆rch on yt 'outpost76 reate horizon d'. 1140 ∆u$t€nitizing, $ub 0 bath and 2 tempers at 515. They also do w∆ter cooled sharpening. They didn't list what b∆r they used or the time at temps, but they are one of the better ones.
Most other's are half that of what Reate performs. And they are only 60-61rc. Almost no one does over 61rc other than a h∆ndful of facilities. But Reate perform much better than others at the same rc.
Spyderco Golden do really well at 61-62rc (not so well at 60) but I believe their protocol is different than Reate's. $earch yt 'outpost76 62 Spyderco'. Iirc Spyderco do a plate quench and use £n2 for their m390. I don't recall the ∆ust€nitizing temps or temper temps or if they use multiple tempers.
Toasty!
Lol this thumbnail :d
In my day it was called marketing. If you can’t dazzle them with knowledge, baffle them with bullshit.
Problem with it is, doesn't matter how much shit you put in the formula, if you arent treating it correctly, its WORSE than 8cr13mov
wisdom
If it is a matter of cherry picking, would that mean that other companies are getting less ideal m390?
We technically don't know for sure what's going on. But I would say, no, m390 is fine when heat treated correctly with proper heat treat protocols. We still have poor performance m390 due to poor microstructure due to poor decisions in protocol choice's by the manufacturer or heat treat facilities.
MK probably stands for "marketing"
Sounds like Tony's cooked up a new marketing scheme with a steel that will be for all intents and purposes indistinguishable from it's parent in the real world. I'm sure he'll sell a ton of knives.
People seem excited about the new model it is currently attached to (MSI) so I'm sure he will.
@@KnifeSteelNerds I have to admit the knife definitely has caught my attention, the base version sold out instantly.
@@johnscarborough4746 Yes the knife looks good
I'm surprised at the enthusiasm for the knife given the last decade's evolution in folder design. The Benchmade Contego faded away. ZT knives are rarely a thing anymore. The MSI seems like something exciting if it was still 2013.
its exciting because "microtech + folding" . 😂
MK = more karbon :) (mehr Kohlenstoff)
Yes if Bohler had actually named it maybe we would get a name that makes sense like that.
So Bohler is just choosing billets that fit a tighter spec and selling them to Microtech and a higher cost? Probably without making any changes to manufacturing processes. I guess it lets marketing dudes say some buzz words, so yay? 🤔
It is not clear from Microtech statements if this is Bohler "cherry picking" billets for them or if they are making steel to a slightly different spec. A tighter range would make me think cherry picking but since Helms said that Bohler has an internal name for the modification that would lead me to think melting to a different spec. Since logistically I think using a different internal name would be impractical unless they are melting to a different spec.
@@KnifeSteelNerds in my area of business, manufacturers do put new part numbers on products they sell to certain customers. It doesn't represent any change to manufacturing, just a unique packaging, handling, etc. for a customer. The new part number ensures the customer gets what they need. You're right that we don't know what this new part number represents, but a simple tightened spec sounds highly plausible to me.
If it’s true it’s just a tighter tolerance which it probably is they should’ve named it M390 black label or M390 reserve
@@ZPositive Good points!
@@TheScrawnyLumberjack M390 Private Reserve
Why not just use real steel like Magnacut
I heard Marfione pees in every vat!
Probably unloaded all their out of spec m390.
So the long and the short is its m390....🤣
It is a Joke 🤣🤣🤣
Well... Regular M390 in my Lionsteel is NOT that impressive so... Let's see what comes from that "exclusive" 🤔🤔🤔
Lionsteel runs their m390 wayyyy to soft, like 58-60 hrc… it’s sad, because they could be doing it way better.
Thats because lionsteel heat treatment. Low temper temp and no liquid nitrogen. I forget the specific protocol off the top of my head, but its 60rc and performance far below what any other 60rc m390 performs as.
The protocol is not providing a microstructure for edge retention.
On top of that they burn the edges polishing and sharpening them.
@@tacticalcenter8658 what’s a good hrc for m390? Edit: for its intended properties.
@@shawnpepin7890 Microtech runs it at 58-60 too
Has Tony sued anyone lately? I don't know what's more cringe, the trashy bikers they have in half their ads or the fact a 60 year old guy is wearing bracelets. I say this with love tho, and a Hellhound combat troodon in my pocket😋 Still sad he's having chi-rike make some of his knives now tho:/
I'm easy, my favorite steel is aebl;)
Marfione never recovered from the MSAR debacle
I guarantee the difference will be minimal, nothing but marketing hype.
I don't care just make the stitch so i can give u my money