As someone who worked in guitar shops for nearly 20 years, and also plays/gigs/records at home, I think the biggest issue that most players run into with modellers from a tonal point of view (so not including UI stuff) is the fact that the tone of a microphone is completely baked-in to the sounds coming out of the hardware… and guitar players aren’t used to that. Sure, you can change the microphone and adjust its placement, but it’s always there. It’s inherently part of the cabinet modelling. Most players hardly ever experience what their guitar amp sounds like when it’s mic’d up. They’re used to sitting next to their amp, with the speaker pointing at their shins. Listening to an amp that way is very different from putting it in another room, micing it up, and listening to the playback through monitors… but THAT is the sound that modellers are attempting to reproduce (some more successfully than others). I think this is why so many players will fail to differentiate between guitar tones that are recorded with a modeller vs guitar tones recorded with a “real” amp, and yet when they sit down and play a modeller in person, they feel like it sounds “strange” or “different” in some way.
Well said. I really struggle with this. When I run my Helix into a power amp and speaker cab it sounds FAR better than using cab emulations in the Helix and running into my FRFR. It’s night and day. I’m indifferent about a lot of things, but not cab emulations and FRFR. I can’t stand it.
@@ajlsrv5490 I’ve been using the Helix for about 7 years now. After lots of tinkering, I’ve found that the “make or break” issue for me is which specific virtual microphone I’m using on any given cab sim. I find most of the virtual mics sound quite harsh, or overly scooped, or too heavy in the mids, etc. most of them sound too extreme in one way or another. But with a bit of experimenting im able to find mic settings that I think sound great.
Great comment. This is why my Headrush Gigboard stays home and never gets gigged. Fun at home through my Fishman tower pay (sounds awesome) but I don't see my self gigging with it.
Just don’t include a cab in your modeled signal chain. Then run the output through a clean power amp like a SD Power Stage and into a real guitar cab. It will get you to that amp in the room territory. There are other tricks as well. Some of the Fractal guys have some good videos to get that amp in the room feel, Leon Todd and Cooper something, can’t remember his last name. Those tips will work with just about any device.
Ive been using amp modelers for 15 years. Started with the Boss ME 50 and eventually moved on to the POD HD Pro. I always got criticism but only from other guitarists. Literally 0 non-musicians who saw me perform live with them ever said anything about it. I have a fully analog rig now (tube amp + pedals) and it sounds great...to me and other guitarists. Yet I find myself yearning to go back to the modeling world. Theres just something about having total control of my rig and tone, being able to adjust things on the fly(especially in a live setting where anything can happen), and most of all not have to worry about maintaining and tending to the possibility of 1 out of 20 things that could be going wrong with my setup which has happened. Fans don't care if your tone doesn't sound "natural". If a modeler has too much high end the sound guy will adjust your mix to fit the room. If you're reading this and you've been watching these videos to figure out if getting one of these or anything similar is worth it, just do it. Yes there is a learning curve, yes the tones don't sound EXACTLY the way their tube counterparts sound. Just get something you're comfortable with, play with it, use it, commit to it and i guarantee you, you will love the way it sounds.
Really good insight - thank you for taking the balanced approach from real world experience of both types of rig. One thought I’d add is that people often say “the audience can’t tell the difference…” between digi and analogue, or a budget amp versus a Two Rock or whatever. Having recently tried a modeller, stereo into a small PA, and then my 20W 1x12 tube amp - un-mic’d - on the same gig, the latter made me feel a lot happier and play better (specifically, with much more dynamics). So I think we should take that into account as well as what the punters are hearing. The audience could definitely tell that I was putting out more happy energy with the tube amp as well. It’s a great ongoing journey, and I’ve certainly been a bit envious of the guy who brought the modeller and packed his stuff up in about 90 seconds, while I set up / took apart a very cool and quite small but nonetheless time-consuming 2x tube amps + board wet/dry rig!
@@onenotesolo256 oh absolutely! The whole reason I got an analog rig in the first place is because I was using my singers AxeFX, and it was very uninspiring. Granted I never got the chance to sit and twiddle with it myself(which I can still do since he still has it), the effects and amp sims we were using just didn't hit right. I used to do the wet/dry thing when I used the POD HD pro live and it was AMAZING. But I had the whole rack set up and all that jazz and it was starting to sound a little out-dated, so I wanted to just move into the analog world since I never had before. But even after piecing everything together and getting it to sound as close to how I wanted it to live I still find myself wanting one of these or even a Helix. Especially since I play in two different bands now and they both wildly different genres, so the fact that I'd have access to multiple decent sounding amps on the fly would come in super handy for someone like me.
I had always been a tube guy, been out for a while, then got back in. Bought an expensive vintage Bassman and absolutely hated it. Supposed to be the best pedal platform amp ever, but after blowing a couple more thousand in pedals, I never got what I wanted out of it. It would do a bluesy sound all day long, but nothing else. Sold it, and many of the pedals, got a Peavey Classic with an effects loop and a Pod Go. I have a long way to go with it but have some tones I like. Did a rehearsal a week ago or so, everyone seemed to be good with it, for the most part I was too. I want versatility, low gain, high gain, effects, the whole 9. Pod Go gives me the opportunity, analog did not. For those that don't know, Nita Strauss with Alice Cooper's band uses the Boss 1000, no amps, straight into the board. Haven't seen anyone ragging on her tone.
John makes everything sound great! Plus, he has provided the most complete work flow and use case set of videos. Fender should be paying him for all the time he has put into their product.
you can make almost anything sound great, like great in general. however, maybe you want a specific tone that you want reproduced quite faithfully. that's where the debate between modelers comes in.
I haven't gigged for a while, but was in a busy function band for many years and the difference in my perception of my tone from our rehearsal space to different venues was pretty constant. Every room sounds different, and outdoor gigs, from my experience, are always rough as far as connecting with the mix and my tone within it. Another big factor was always how much space I had on stage (or in the corner of a bar or restaurant). If I was standing with my amp a foot behind me, it was generally difficult to hear what my amp really sounded like out in the room, vs. being able to have it behind me a few feet, or whatever. I tried an amp stand for a while, but having it pointed at my head was never a good solution, either. Everything is a compromise to some degree. I bought my first Katana at the end of last year - the 50 watt with the extra footswitch functionality, whatever it's called - and out of the box it was extremely bright, just playing at reasonably quiet bedroom levels, which is all I can manage in my current living situation. Luckily the Katana editor is really good and I now have a few sounds that I really like. I feel like the idea of any modeler being gigable out of the box is probably just not possible. Most presets have over-emphasized bass and scooped mids. Guitarists need to remember that we play a midrange instrument and gig tones need to work within the context of a busy band mix. Horns, keyboards, etc., all need to fit in somewhere and a big, scooped drive tone that sounds huge by itself will often get lost in the mix. Anyway, John, I appreciate your thoughtful and honest approach. I've seen so many "sponsored" Fender TMP videos in the last several days. Being handed an expensive piece of gear - and in many cases the powered FRFR Fender speaker as well - and saying that it has no impact on the reviewer's opinion is disingenuous, in my opinion. Fender clearly wants good things said about their stuff, that's why they sent out dozens of free units. They know they'll get a big splash and probably mostly positive comments. It's marketing in the social media age, and it is what it is. Keep up the good work. The loops/tracks you create and your approach to soloing is always melodic and enjoyable. I'm well past the age where shredding for the sake of shredding appeals to me anymore. You clearly have a strong sense of phrasing and melody and it makes you stand out from the YT crowd of guitar players.
HI YOU SOUND LIKE YOU HAVE DONE IT ALL. I STILL PLAY AT 73 ,STILL LOVE ALL TYPES OF MUSIC, LATELY HAVE BEEN STUDYING BOSANOVA MUSIC TO IMPROVE MY JAZZ CHORD SKILLS.
I did the same thing with the Katana EX. What I found is that if I set a high cut at say 5-6k and a low cut at 100Hz it really focused the sound and cleared all the fizz or flab out of it. Really sounds great and the pedals/Tonemaster DR stay home for most gigs
I gigged the Tone Master Pro last weekend. It went pretty well, it definitely helped I watched this and rolled back on the highs. Super easy to use and was able to add pedals between songs when needed. My only issue was the wah patch I used, it was kind of shrieked. I picked that one because at home the others didn't have much tone but I see live with full sound they would be just fine.
JNC you really articulated well the issue of home tone versus FOH tone. It's always the biggest challenge. But if I'm honest the FOH tone challenge has always been there even with amps that have speaker emulation line outs too.
I think the thing with the fuzzy high end is that on a real tube amp, you do not crank it up at low volumes. It’s either low at low volumes or cranked a high volume. And the dynamic difference of the amps tone makes up for the how it feels in a room. But in a modeler, you get used to your high gain sound at low volume. Then you turn up the volume and you suddenly notice all this noise extra low end and high end information that you didn’t know was there. It’s not a matter of the model being unrealistic so much as the way you are monitoring it being unrealistic. The other thing is that I think it is there job to capture the highest frequencies of an amp because if they don’t and you won’t be able to add it back with EQ. You can only take away. So it’s better they have it available than not. But I think that the cab sims in these things should always include high cut and low cut filters and have them default at 80hz low cut and 6khz high-cut.
One thing that seems to help with these modelers, to get rid of those high-end artifacts without using the cut filter, is the ribbon 121 mic versus an sm57. Since I started doing this with my modeler, I no longer need the high-end cut filter. In fact they can turn the bright switch on with the amp, including treble, for bright sounds, without the harsh.
I love the touch screen with sliders. The unit looks professional and sturdy. On UA-cam it sounds just like most other modelers so i imagine the sound is at least decent in person. I'm admittedly biased in favor of Fender because I was brought up in a Fender household. That being said, I can't see myself buying this new. Maybe after a year of firmware updates, I can snag one used to try out.
You might be bombarding us, but it's new gear. People like to know. Also, if you have an opinion, there will always be people that disagree. No way around that. I like the content. Keep it going.
Actually, with tube amps you find yourself dialing them way darker on stage than what you do at home levels. It's a byproduct of how both speakers and hearing work.
Your comments about modelers not sounding the same "in the studio" vs. "at volume live" align with my experience too. But frankly, real tube amps also sound quite different when comparing "at home" levels with live levels. Although the differences are different. But this all points to the fact that we need to test and tweak our modelers at gigging volumes one way or the other. Of course, on the flip side, the whole point of modeling (for me anyway) is that you can get your tones at almosst any volume level. I suppose that is true as long as we are willing to tweak to accomodate the desired volume level.
@@tonykennedy8483YES... BIG part of it.. There's a physical hit you in the chest component too depending on where you are in the room, and the room reacts to the louder volume levels as well. Couples with it, natural early reflections if not reverb, the works.. But yeah Fletcher Munson is a big part. That's why they used to have those huge Urei soffit mounted co-axial beast speakers with crown MacroTech amps driving them in studios in the 70's and 80's to get you there.. Psychoacoustically we don't hear "flat" until you monitor at around 90db average level.. There's a few recording engineers that lost a bit of their midrange and upper hearing I am sure from monitoring at the levels I was told were flat when I went to recording school.. Thankfully I was a hack and only had a home studio with neighbors around. lol...
I used the Tone Master Pro this morning at church. I had spent the weekend dialing my sounds and wasn’t thrilled live. For the second service I went back to the Helix, it’s tried and true! I do like a lot about the Fender, I just need to tweak it quite a bit
I keep looking at this vs a helix floor (I also kept diving into “what’s up with the QC right now? And apparently, it’s tedious silence on updates since January of 2022 so…my confidence in that thing is waning as a long term investment) and Fender might have been doing this since the Cyber Twin days but I’m -also- skeptical of their commitment to this platform long term…Fender Fuse, anyone? But there’s a lot to like on this thing. I’m just finding it hard to think of a use case that the Helix can’t also do, and has a lovely track record of updates/support and consistency. I think that this video though is one of the best dives into it without all the “fluff” and “patting fender on the back even though it’s more expensive than a Quad Cortex.”
So I have a review unit and just happened to toss it in the car with me for our gig this past saturday night. Main gig setup was my recently retubed SLO, OX box and an FRFR behind me with my UA Lion pedal in my bag as my backup amp but I still grabbed the TMP for some reason. Not 6 songs in, I've got a loud hum coming from the SLO (shame on me I guess for not burning in the tubes and checking that first) so I run to the car and grab the TMP, swap some cables and pulled up whatever the van halen patch is that has the Plexi amp and quite literally right out of the box, the tone was outstanding. I did upgrade to the newest firmware that has addressed a lot of the complaints about impedance curves and what not but the harshness wasn't there and no fizz in the top end. It also took all of about 5 minutes after the first set to set some effects to the foot switch controls and I also was easily able to setup a switch to drop the gain on the amp for a bluesy crunch sound and another to toggle a solo boost. It scored major brownie points for me this weekend in not only sounding great but being (as far as I'm concerned) the easiest modeler to setup and work with I've ever owned and other than the tone x, I've had them all.
I commented on the ample use of the term "digital" in Rhetts video. He was not wrong about it being fizzy, just that's not because it's digital, it's direct and close quartered. It has a wider FRFR bandwidth. It puts the close mic'ed tone in your ears and you never put year ears up to the speaker where the mic is setup. lowpass at 6 to 7K or it will be fizzy. That's nothing to do with digital.
Many a good point in your video John thanks. You have helped me bridge the gap from being stuck playing ONLY my tube amps to making the jump into modeling and actually going for it getting this unit + the Fender Fr12 powered cabinet. I agree 100% that what has put me off when trying modelers before; I hated the interface, and I also hated the gap between what I dialed in at home vs. what it sounds like when there is a drummer and another guitarist / bassist etc. I will say that having the Fender FR12 has so far made my life REALLY easy when it comes to boiling off the extra high end fizz with there being an entire EQ on the top of the cab for really quick adjustments of Bass, Middle, Treble and thank god a cut / pass filter that really takes the nails on the chalkboard sound away from some of the rigs that I have setup currently. Best part is I didn't need to touch the pedal board for adjustments and its a small seamless adjustment of a single knob based on the patch I am running. I am experimenting with various IR's as I have recently acquired several hundred of them in a large bundle, I can feel the optional paralysis setting its claws into me already! Cheers mate!
the whole brighter in the bedroom and darker playing out goes for all gear, amp/digital/guitar/pickups… when playing out at high volumes esp after getting experience w it we seek more mids less highs etc.
True. But it must have been exacerbated with the TMP because John gigs with Helix, HX Stomps, Axe FX FM3 and 9, etc etc all the time with the same conditions, As well as amps with pedals and no modeler. The fact that it is being highlighted is indicating that either there's a lot more that has to be done to tame the TMP or there may be a real firmware fixable issue, I think?
I really liked this video! I just bought mine and have only played with the presets. Now I plan to build up my own. I also have a Quad Cortex, but so far I like the TMP better. So much easier and I like the ProControl software for this setup. Thanks for posting your unbiased videos!
I appreciate this video. As a gigging musician, I've recently become accustom to modelling and I love it. I currently use the Boss ME90. This looks so much more intuitive, but the price reflects this as well. I will be buying this unit for sure. It took some time to learn the sounds that cut through the mix. What sounds great in your bedroom, sounds significantly different in the band mix - that's a huge learning curve! Being in a cover band for various types of music, modelling is so useful and inspirational. Not to mention, easier on the back cuz I don't have a crew to help load/unload my gear. Setting up is so simple now.
Nice explanation of live use and modellers. It would be nice to see a video that someone like yourself goes through behind the scenes to get such a great tone from these modellers for the videos.
When I set up my Helix (LT) presets for my last band, I used to have the volume as high as I could get to address the high frequency issues, as close to live volume as I could get. Appreciate its not always possible for many people! I am lucky I can play at high volume without annoying anyone, neighbours or otherwise.
i heard Billy Sheehan talk about that phenomenon.. that at higher volumes the sound tends to eq to a "smiley face" curve.. i suppose it`s about physics of the space or the speaker moving at high preasures, but i did find interesting that observation.. he also said that he sets his sounds with more mids to compensate that
Fletcher Munson curve is not a smooth one, it has some ripples in it, but it actually is closer to FLAT at higher volume levels. Highs and lows roll off psychoacoustically for us as listeners as volume levels go down. So, midrange is most of what you hear when you turn the volume down on your listening system. When I went to a local recording school in the late 80's that curve meant that if you wanted to monitor a mix as it actually "sounds" you had to have the mix up around 90db average.. Which is not good for your hearing, but it sure sounds better.. Back in the 70's true HiFi systems were expensive, and actually assumed people were audiophiles. Most receivers would have a volume control AND a "loudness" button, or some more complicated ones a loudness knob. The loudness Control was a Fletcher Munson compensation EQ curve. The better ones would continuously boost the highs and lows as the volume level was reduced .
I was recently explaining to the drummer in my band why I have gone to a modeler (HX stomp), because he was like, "isn't it all about the amp? What happened to your amp bro?" My number one reason was that it sounds more consistent from gig to gig than my tube amps ever did. I had a lot of experiences plugging into either my 1969 Fender Bandmaster Reverb, or my little Egnater combo, and the sound would just be different from the last time I played through it. Usually weirdly thin, or muffled and shitty. I honestly don't get that with the patches that I use on the Helix, it's kind of always the same, which is great. And if I do get the old "Fletcher Munson scooped at volume" problem, global EQ is right there for me, or I have an EQ block that I have saved and ready to go that compensates for the FM curve that high volume sounds create.
Another great video, thanks for sharing some of the love footage as well as all your thoughts on it. I know a lot of time, thought and work goes into making these videos so I hope you're being paid well for the anti-Fender vendetta. ;) Another totally fair one from my point of view. Until you mentioned it must admit I'd forgotten about how shocked I was the first time I played my lovely Helix sounds through a PA system in a pub....totally crestfallen until I worked it out (probably from one of your videos). Cheers.
you always seem to reach into my brain and then articulate the question/problems and then answer them! you mentioned user interface and I think I love that the most about this unit seeing you put it to use. Ps. Right at the end of your vid I noticed a 'retain global eq' switch, I guess thats what you need (like you didn't know already) - thanks again!
It will be interesting to see if Fender sticks with it and continues development or if they just leave it as is as they normally do with this stuff. It seems like a really good first crack at this. If they continue to update it for 4 or 5 yrs and them release a new version that would be awesome.
Great content John. I respect that you give your thoughts and opinions on this honestly. I’m following along because if I do end up buying one, it’s because of your insight. So thank you.
Don’t forget, there are low and high cut filters right on the Cab Editor page to accomplish this same bandpassing of frequencies that JNC is getting from the global EQ.
I agree that's definitely where I would do the EQ'ing .. But the Global EQ is just the ticket if you are mid-set and realize the whole set of patches sound too bright / dark etc.. I would have done what John did to save the gig from being painful for me as a player... But I definitely would have gone home and redid the patches individually until I could set the Global EQ flat.. I would want to use the Global EQ only for compensating for a gig in a room that is marble flooring and hard walls as opposed to a club with lots of people and sound dampening stuff on the walls etc.. I would want the global EQ for that purpose based on how I used to use a modeler: The last time I was a gigging paid musician was in the early 2000's and I had a Roland GP-100 and a pair of 1x12 EVM-12L cabs driven by a Mesa Fifty Fifty Stereo tube power amp.. I only ever tweaked the patches THROUGH THAT SAME RIG in the basement of my house at gig volume through the cabinets. So I never really ran into a surprise when I got to the venue. I also was not sending a separate feed to the venue's sound system because our band was not running the PA, it was the venue's or a hired soundman.. Plugging directly into a board back in 1998 through 2004 or so was NOT the norm.. Sound guys felt most comfortable with mics they knew. Even In my basement studio, I had a pair of condensers in front of the cabs in fact, because I didn't want to have to deal with any differences I might run into between the feed to Cubase and what I heard in the room with the rest of the band.. Live today is a different story entirely.. Direct to FOH is the norm a lot of the time for modeler users because of stage volume restrictions. I would totally adjust to it and figure out how to make it work as well if I had to, but never had to worry about it back then. And NOW? I will probably do my recording through my audio interface using UA Apollo amp Plugins and doing the effects chains in the DAW, or I will be using the same EV Cabs with a modern solid state stereo amp setup, and for the time being, the NUX Amp Academy and a pedalboard until I settle on (and have money for) a Helix or hopefully Line 6's successor to it. I really gotta say, Form factor and user interface? I am LOVING the Fender...
I completely agree about your point at ~7min .. dialing in a modeller live is a world away from a good studio tone. My 2p on this is that a) cos you're (usually) not just tweaking tone, gain and volume pots until it sound good, it feels really odd and b) if you've had an amp in a pub, you're not mic'ing up .. ever .. so that whole mic'ing layer is at odds with the circumstance .. At some point I suspect I'll make the change .. but it would be nice to have dedicated controls and cab models/IRs that are designed/intended to make you feel like you're stood in front of the amp .. doubt that'll happen though
Hey John. I am just one of your 92.6 thousand subscribers so I guess you can take this with a grain of salt...you don't owe anyone any apologies. You have a right to your professional opinion as well as anyone. I believe folks that have followed you for any amount of time know that you base your thoughts on the real world use as a long time modeler. I, for one, appreciate the honesty and clarity with which you present you views. So don't ever feel the need to apologize. We know what you mean...on the other hand...that shark.....
Not sure if I have posted this before (apologies if I have), but the Mission SP1-TMP (co branded and custom paint) unlocks things like volume control, wah and a lot of cool creativity/control. Fender also made it reeeeally easy to set up the expression and the toe switch. Control up to 5 parameters at once and use the toe switch to turn off one or all effects. Be great to see a video covering this :-)
Great point about the translation from home to gig. Those of us old enough to have played when we were rolling in 100 watt amps and 4x12s to clubs, even the amps sound different when you get somewhere. I had to do that all the time with my rig in the 80s and 90s. I generally on dirty sounds will have a hi cut down to 6k or even 3k depending on the sound, then out to the post effects. I also think people expect the newest thing out to be the be all end all of everything. No amp is that, no pedal is that, why should a modeler be that?
I can’t believe how quickly you can assign foot switches to turn effects on and off. It literally takes seconds. I’d still be watching a Leon Todd or Cooper Carter video to figure out how to do it on the Axe-FX.
I have a Helix LT that I've been gigging for quite some time. I use that for gigs where I need more complicated rigs and multiple different sounds. I have a Hughes & Kettner Ampman Vintage that I love for certain simpler sounds, but I've recently grabbed a Tonex Pedal for times when I really only need a simple 'guitar-into-amp' sound. I was NOT disppointed the Tonex didn't have an effects loop (because I know better) but I WAS a little bummed they didn't have balanced XLR outs. I use a small DI box with it, but it would be GREAT if it had that built in as that's kinda the whole point of owning this is to simplify my rig and be able to carry my "amp" in the poscket of my gig bag. I won'y be considering this unit as I don't feel the price would give me that much more than I already have available.
@@johnnathancordy yes, it could be very interesting! Maybe also some overdrive pedal comparison, because I saw recently Anderson review with a comparison with other modelers, helix inclused. I had the same feelings of them about helix in that comparison (less dynamics and darker sound) using the preset amp, but maybe it is just me that I don't have the ability to recreate a credible sound ahahah
The cab sim outputs on the Tone Master amps suffer from the same fizzyness but even in just a studio recording setting, I’m finding I need to put a low pass on the eq or just use a third party IR.
I took one home the other day. Cool unit. I prefer the feel and simplicity of my ua dream 65. Returning the tm pro. And hopefully ua releases a Marshall soon!
i guess my interest in this device is because i like a quick and easy way to get to an end result and don't like to have to go back and edit things. set up two rigs max and just play and have it sound good enough each room at a gig. and the fizz top end cut global would be perfect. thanks for the honest review.
I went through modeling when it first came out into the early 2000’s. ART, Line 6 Johnson millennium. It’s hard to go back. I love pedals into to my amps.
Pre 200'0s here lol, I was using a Roland GP-100 It was so much warmer and more natural sounding than any of the stuff that followed for like 10 years after it. Until the AxeFXII or III came along, Robert Fripp and apparently Devin Townsend were still using their GP-100s
@@user-hc2rz6vs8h Cool didn't know that! As of the Premier Guitar 2019 Touring Rig rundown, he had a pair of AxeFX II XLs (and a pair of Eventide H3000's and some other older gear.. He likes what he likes :) When did he change over to the Helix from the Fractal?
@@user-hc2rz6vs8hI wonder if he takes the Helix around as a self contained floor unit for fly gigs and impromptu stuff? It is a lot easier to program and get around than an FM9 or FM3 I think, and has the scribble strips and the whole magilla in one unit including the expression pedal..
As a working musician, TLDR - I got the new TC Electronic Combo 65 which looks like an amp, with analog old school knobs you turn and they do what they're supposed to, and gigged with it, and it was like having a fender amp. Size of two boss pedals. 150 euro. Case closed for me.
On the Fender Mustang GTX100 I pretty much have to run it with the bright cut turned on because I think it's a bit fizzy and too much in the high end. That combined with having the volume loud enough seems to get it in something like amp territory. I'm not surprised that the ToneMaster Pro is similar in that regard.
Thanks John! I say you really have a handle on setting up some really nice tones quickly. Your ear for sweet sounding tones is very impressive not to mention your liquid touch on the guitar. I am very impressed with how you handle these modelers! I always end up going back to my physical amps and pedals after becoming frustrated by programing modelers. When I watch you I keep imagining the possibilities these units posses for amazing sounds but my experience has not resulted in outcomes like yours. Maybe it has to do with my ear for creating sounds in that I tend to get lost in creating a sound then when I come back and listen later I think "OMG! That sounds like garbage!". How did you get to where you are in programming these wonderful tones?
You know, I found myself in the same situation when setting up patches more recently with the couple of lower end modeling devices I have (NUX Amp Academy and the Mighty Plug Pro for example) and I think a lot of it boils down to something I learned from John, ROLL THE TOP off especially if you are listening to the modeler through headphones or studio monitors etc... Your ears can at first perk up a bit with the high end stuff, but they fatigue in the upper midrange and higher frequencies after like 30 minutes or so and your perception of how harsh the patch is can get dulled. When you come back, it can sound all brittle... Err on the side of a darker tone at the cab sim, and you will find that it still can sound cutting and smoldering and chewy and still have some bright harmonics in it, but they are just not fatiguing to the ear, and when there is a mix going on, the high end hash not being there makes the whole mix sound less harsh..
What I haven’t managed to found out is how to trigger songs from the set list via MiDI as I normally do, you can change patches but not songs it seems which is weird.
Great review and great job dialing in the Friedman lead tone. I'm thinking that maybe the default EQ having the full spectrum audio range is to accommodatevand include keyboards and vocal nuances as opposed to just guitar/amps. It would be great to have multiple EQ options saved for different instruments to accommodate the more life-like 6-8k roll off that we find in our typical guitar and amp rigs. As you mentioned, even the Fractal AF III cabs need to be rolled off on the low and high end when You're building presets from scratch. Also, and just as important, is that you really need to have a couple preset types for each preset regardless of which modeler you are using. One preset for bedroom/recording use, and one variation of that preset for live use. Because inevitably they are going to sound different and call for emphasis on different frequencies depending on the band you're playing with and even the venue itself. I saw Rhetts review and I think he way overshot his criticism of the unit without putting forth the effort you should to learn the system and produce a good sound. He did the same thing with the Fractal. I think Rhett is more inclined towards something more simple that has already been worked out,band requires less user input. I think he likes Line6 and Kemper stuff, and maybe is a bit stuck in the 7 or 8 year old modeling tech world.
Check out Ola Englund's recent video on the Tone Master Pro. I forget if he ran it through the 10in or 12in speaker but it sounded absolutely immense. I'm still not sold on the TMP yet, but I'm probably going to buy that FRFR speaker regardless. It sounds just as good if not better than the Line 6 Powercab and the Headrush FRFR speakers to my ears
having a bit of a dumb moment is the first song he played a queen or a thin lizzy track? edit: (nevermind i remembered its moore’s solo on get out of here, I’ve always loved that solo though it sounded so silly but is fantastic)
I'm not impressed. At this stage, it's best to wait and see what Line 6 will bring out as a replacement to Helix. Surely, it can't be that far off now. That will give a better feel of where the technology is at now and the processing power these floor units can deliver.
@@user-hc2rz6vs8h for the same reason that we're not using a VHS to watch a movie anymore. Every technology based product has a life cycle. Technologies evolve, processing power, heat management, component sizes etc. new processors will allow greater computational calculations for "better models" etc. That's just how it always goes. I can't think there are many people now who want to go out and buy a brand new helix.
I mean, it depends on the scene (Blues, Country, etc. still analog dominated), but aren't there plenty of bands already touring with rigs like the Helix, Quad Cortex, Fractal or otherwise modeled setups? The industry isn't exactly "waiting on the tech" anymore.
I’ve never wanted a unit like this - Kemper, Axe Fx etc etc. Too much technology, learning, fidgeting and so on. But I’m really liking this. Looks very intuitive and easy to get around. Plus, it sounds good. But man, it’s almost €2k 🤦♂️
Would have loved if the camera was turned around for the little noodly bits like at 15:00 and before...some neat little licks in there that is like to snag. Would sub for a quick "licks" vid! 😁 Also, QC's editor program has been around in beta for a little while now, too. That's an absolute must-have for my work flow. Have had an Axe-FX II for...like...6 years now. Might grab a QC to play with now.
I had never played the TMP myself but as much as I hate Fender as a brand, I have to say TMP really nailed the clarity and the warmth on the bottom of the pick attacks you only get in a tube amp, better than the Helix as far as what I hear in all the demos online. And I say this as a Helix guy myself.
JNC, I don't know whether your valve amps still need fixing, but you might want to check out Jon Dickinson's Amplification in Crystal Palace, London SE19. He makes/designs his own guitar amps. His battered workshop is like stepping into a Harry Potter movie, full of sad broken 1960s Fender/Marshall/Vox valve amps that he's mending. Highly recommended by me (although I'm a nobody) :) . Note: I have no pecuniary link to Jon but he's fixed up my stuff in the past. Not expensive either.
I HAVE BEEN USING IN AMP MODERLERS FOR A LONG TIME ROLAND CUBES, VOX VALVE TRONIC, ROLAND BLUES CUBES. THESE ALL SOUND GOOD LIVE. I OWN A ROLAND GT1000 MULTI EFFECT BUT HAVE NOT PUT IN THE TIME TO MASTER IT. ALL GEAR NEEDS A LIVE STAGE SET UP FOR EQ AND STAGE LEVEL. THIS IS WHY YOU DO A SOUND CHECK BEFORE THE SHOW. BEST WAY IS TO SET LEVELS FOR SOLO LEVEL, SAME AS LEAD VOCAL LEVEL, THEN BRING IT DOWN TO BACKING LEVEL.
I think it's important to remember that; just because you are using a modeling device, it doesn't mean you have to throw away your on-stage speaker and give total control to whoever is mixing the "house". I thought that Fender providing a speaker to work with this unit was just right for that reason. Way back in the 60's when I played big venues, they would mic everything so tight that they could take control away from the band even then. We always resisted spreading out too far on-stage, so we could still create our audible zone settup. You need to hear a mix that sounds familiar, at the minimum, to play well. I'm not familiar with in-ear monitoring, but I spent hundreds of hours playing with headphone mixes in studios, so I assume that has a similar "buffer effect" on your mix, and relative tone. i still think most "house" systems are profiled for vocal range output.
Sounded great. At gig I had issues updating and it sounded terrible. I reinstalled firmware without factory reset afterwards and that seems to have fixed the liaising issues I temporarily had. Sounded much like Rhett issues he described. Not noticing it now after reinstall. There’s loads of stuff that needs improving. Tuner is ok but can’t adjust frequency. It is hard to separately control outputs from headphone levels. In fact the the output control in general is frustrating. Great videos John keep them coming there is loads that could be improved to make this a really good bit of gear and if no one has the guts to say what needs saying then nothing gets really good. Cannot rely on a lot of influencers who mist over stuff. Could really do with parametric EQ … quad cortex EQ is now brilliant so hoping fender will improve this. I think you can lock the global EQ in settings. Not sure.
It’s a real shame you had to buy your unit fender should have put you first on there list and then buckled up BUTTERCUP . They made a good unit it is never going to be perfect without constructive criticism
And why just now mic / line input .. put 2 balanced mic line/ instrument inputs on the front end like QC did 2 movable stereo effects loops is the basic some us use drum machines and foot drums and synths and lap steels and just MORE PLEASE! ! 2023 and I’m waiting since helix for 2 movable stereo MOFO effects loops with no compromise. …. Cheers I’m done
When you set up the modeller at home/in the studio, did it sound dark through the matching Fender FR12 cab? I wonder if there is a way to set that up so it gives a similar feel to PA speakers (ie so you only have to do minor eq tweaks)
I am 10 min in your video and I already have some questions. I saw you playing at the gig ( not live but on screen) and I know these places. I cuz a wedding or a party. And for those places its must be a great instrument. But in the days we all have big flightcases and sometimes big hair. Which also slowly falls off. But aren't you afraid of some party/wedding juice runs over the stage and there is your precious Fender amp. Still big fan of your playingstyle and your honest reviews.
This is the reason why I gave up on modellers. Between headphones, FRFR, endless eq'ing, playing through the fx loop it was just an utter job lot of time wasting.
Really all rooms are different and eq will always be required to a degree for all Instruments to get a pleasant/useful sound - I get what your saying it was way to bight and lacked some girth - dialing it in first time out should be expected though -
What you are describing in the first 10 mins of the video (studio vs live) is common across modellers and is not specific to the Fender. It is recommended by several forums to create presets for live using the same volume at home.
You can’t even begin to dial in a reliable gig sound without dialling in gear at gig volume, regardless of the gear used. I’m kind of surprised this is still a conversation. That’s without taking into consideration how different venues will radically alter our perception of sound.
John, I hope you can help me with programming on my TMP. I come from from the Helix Floor that I have gigged with since it's introduction. On the Helix, I have one preset for each song. I can have up to four snapshots within preset. Typically, I have Intro, Verse, Chorus and Lead. Each snapshot turns a block on or off, or I change parameters on a block. Now for the question: can I do the same thing on the TMP? If so, how? It seems like I have to treat each preset as a separate snapshot. Thank you!
Oh and thanks for sharing the info about your global EQ setting. I have a TMP and that has helped improve the sound immensely. 👍
As someone who worked in guitar shops for nearly 20 years, and also plays/gigs/records at home, I think the biggest issue that most players run into with modellers from a tonal point of view (so not including UI stuff) is the fact that the tone of a microphone is completely baked-in to the sounds coming out of the hardware… and guitar players aren’t used to that.
Sure, you can change the microphone and adjust its placement, but it’s always there. It’s inherently part of the cabinet modelling.
Most players hardly ever experience what their guitar amp sounds like when it’s mic’d up. They’re used to sitting next to their amp, with the speaker pointing at their shins. Listening to an amp that way is very different from putting it in another room, micing it up, and listening to the playback through monitors… but THAT is the sound that modellers are attempting to reproduce (some more successfully than others).
I think this is why so many players will fail to differentiate between guitar tones that are recorded with a modeller vs guitar tones recorded with a “real” amp, and yet when they sit down and play a modeller in person, they feel like it sounds “strange” or “different” in some way.
Well said. I really struggle with this. When I run my Helix into a power amp and speaker cab it sounds FAR better than using cab emulations in the Helix and running into my FRFR. It’s night and day. I’m indifferent about a lot of things, but not cab emulations and FRFR. I can’t stand it.
@@ajlsrv5490 I’ve been using the Helix for about 7 years now. After lots of tinkering, I’ve found that the “make or break” issue for me is which specific virtual microphone I’m using on any given cab sim. I find most of the virtual mics sound quite harsh, or overly scooped, or too heavy in the mids, etc. most of them sound too extreme in one way or another. But with a bit of experimenting im able to find mic settings that I think sound great.
Great comment. This is why my Headrush Gigboard stays home and never gets gigged. Fun at home through my Fishman tower pay (sounds awesome) but I don't see my self gigging with it.
Just don’t include a cab in your modeled signal chain. Then run the output through a clean power amp like a SD Power Stage and into a real guitar cab. It will get you to that amp in the room territory. There are other tricks as well. Some of the Fractal guys have some good videos to get that amp in the room feel, Leon Todd and Cooper something, can’t remember his last name. Those tips will work with just about any device.
The Uncanny Valley problem for modellers we'll call it.
Don't Stop Believing was spot on!! And congrats on being the FIRST UA-camr to gig the ToneMaster Pro.
Ive been using amp modelers for 15 years. Started with the Boss ME 50 and eventually moved on to the POD HD Pro. I always got criticism but only from other guitarists. Literally 0 non-musicians who saw me perform live with them ever said anything about it. I have a fully analog rig now (tube amp + pedals) and it sounds great...to me and other guitarists. Yet I find myself yearning to go back to the modeling world. Theres just something about having total control of my rig and tone, being able to adjust things on the fly(especially in a live setting where anything can happen), and most of all not have to worry about maintaining and tending to the possibility of 1 out of 20 things that could be going wrong with my setup which has happened. Fans don't care if your tone doesn't sound "natural". If a modeler has too much high end the sound guy will adjust your mix to fit the room. If you're reading this and you've been watching these videos to figure out if getting one of these or anything similar is worth it, just do it. Yes there is a learning curve, yes the tones don't sound EXACTLY the way their tube counterparts sound. Just get something you're comfortable with, play with it, use it, commit to it and i guarantee you, you will love the way it sounds.
Really good insight - thank you for taking the balanced approach from real world experience of both types of rig. One thought I’d add is that people often say “the audience can’t tell the difference…” between digi and analogue, or a budget amp versus a Two Rock or whatever. Having recently tried a modeller, stereo into a small PA, and then my 20W 1x12 tube amp - un-mic’d - on the same gig, the latter made me feel a lot happier and play better (specifically, with much more dynamics). So I think we should take that into account as well as what the punters are hearing. The audience could definitely tell that I was putting out more happy energy with the tube amp as well.
It’s a great ongoing journey, and I’ve certainly been a bit envious of the guy who brought the modeller and packed his stuff up in about 90 seconds, while I set up / took apart a very cool and quite small but nonetheless time-consuming 2x tube amps + board wet/dry rig!
@@onenotesolo256 oh absolutely! The whole reason I got an analog rig in the first place is because I was using my singers AxeFX, and it was very uninspiring. Granted I never got the chance to sit and twiddle with it myself(which I can still do since he still has it), the effects and amp sims we were using just didn't hit right. I used to do the wet/dry thing when I used the POD HD pro live and it was AMAZING. But I had the whole rack set up and all that jazz and it was starting to sound a little out-dated, so I wanted to just move into the analog world since I never had before. But even after piecing everything together and getting it to sound as close to how I wanted it to live I still find myself wanting one of these or even a Helix. Especially since I play in two different bands now and they both wildly different genres, so the fact that I'd have access to multiple decent sounding amps on the fly would come in super handy for someone like me.
Sorry completely disagree. The tones in this video are terrible. Scratchy. Noisy and full of fuzziness
@@glennmartin4232 never said they weren't. So I'm not sure what you disagree with.
I had always been a tube guy, been out for a while, then got back in. Bought an expensive vintage Bassman and absolutely hated it. Supposed to be the best pedal platform amp ever, but after blowing a couple more thousand in pedals, I never got what I wanted out of it. It would do a bluesy sound all day long, but nothing else. Sold it, and many of the pedals, got a Peavey Classic with an effects loop and a Pod Go.
I have a long way to go with it but have some tones I like. Did a rehearsal a week ago or so, everyone seemed to be good with it, for the most part I was too. I want versatility, low gain, high gain, effects, the whole 9. Pod Go gives me the opportunity, analog did not.
For those that don't know, Nita Strauss with Alice Cooper's band uses the Boss 1000, no amps, straight into the board. Haven't seen anyone ragging on her tone.
John makes everything sound great! Plus, he has provided the most complete work flow and use case set of videos. Fender should be paying him for all the time he has put into their product.
you can make almost anything sound great, like great in general. however, maybe you want a specific tone that you want reproduced quite faithfully. that's where the debate between modelers comes in.
I haven't gigged for a while, but was in a busy function band for many years and the difference in my perception of my tone from our rehearsal space to different venues was pretty constant. Every room sounds different, and outdoor gigs, from my experience, are always rough as far as connecting with the mix and my tone within it. Another big factor was always how much space I had on stage (or in the corner of a bar or restaurant). If I was standing with my amp a foot behind me, it was generally difficult to hear what my amp really sounded like out in the room, vs. being able to have it behind me a few feet, or whatever. I tried an amp stand for a while, but having it pointed at my head was never a good solution, either. Everything is a compromise to some degree.
I bought my first Katana at the end of last year - the 50 watt with the extra footswitch functionality, whatever it's called - and out of the box it was extremely bright, just playing at reasonably quiet bedroom levels, which is all I can manage in my current living situation. Luckily the Katana editor is really good and I now have a few sounds that I really like. I feel like the idea of any modeler being gigable out of the box is probably just not possible. Most presets have over-emphasized bass and scooped mids. Guitarists need to remember that we play a midrange instrument and gig tones need to work within the context of a busy band mix. Horns, keyboards, etc., all need to fit in somewhere and a big, scooped drive tone that sounds huge by itself will often get lost in the mix.
Anyway, John, I appreciate your thoughtful and honest approach. I've seen so many "sponsored" Fender TMP videos in the last several days. Being handed an expensive piece of gear - and in many cases the powered FRFR Fender speaker as well - and saying that it has no impact on the reviewer's opinion is disingenuous, in my opinion. Fender clearly wants good things said about their stuff, that's why they sent out dozens of free units. They know they'll get a big splash and probably mostly positive comments. It's marketing in the social media age, and it is what it is.
Keep up the good work. The loops/tracks you create and your approach to soloing is always melodic and enjoyable. I'm well past the age where shredding for the sake of shredding appeals to me anymore. You clearly have a strong sense of phrasing and melody and it makes you stand out from the YT crowd of guitar players.
HI YOU SOUND LIKE YOU HAVE DONE IT ALL. I STILL PLAY AT 73 ,STILL LOVE ALL TYPES OF MUSIC, LATELY HAVE BEEN STUDYING BOSANOVA MUSIC TO IMPROVE MY JAZZ CHORD SKILLS.
I did the same thing with the Katana EX. What I found is that if I set a high cut at say 5-6k and a low cut at 100Hz it really focused the sound and cleared all the fizz or flab out of it. Really sounds great and the pedals/Tonemaster DR stay home for most gigs
I gigged the Tone Master Pro last weekend. It went pretty well, it definitely helped I watched this and rolled back on the highs. Super easy to use and was able to add pedals between songs when needed. My only issue was the wah patch I used, it was kind of shrieked. I picked that one because at home the others didn't have much tone but I see live with full sound they would be just fine.
As much as I love my Helix, I really think this thing sounds great and has a great interface.
JNC you really articulated well the issue of home tone versus FOH tone. It's always the biggest challenge. But if I'm honest the FOH tone challenge has always been there even with amps that have speaker emulation line outs too.
Very interesting to see your exploration of this modeller. Really valuable for anyone shopping around. Thanks John
I think the thing with the fuzzy high end is that on a real tube amp, you do not crank it up at low volumes. It’s either low at low volumes or cranked a high volume.
And the dynamic difference of the amps tone makes up for the how it feels in a room.
But in a modeler, you get used to your high gain sound at low volume. Then you turn up the volume and you suddenly notice all this noise extra low end and high end information that you didn’t know was there.
It’s not a matter of the model being unrealistic so much as the way you are monitoring it being unrealistic.
The other thing is that I think it is there job to capture the highest frequencies of an amp because if they don’t and you won’t be able to add it back with EQ. You can only take away. So it’s better they have it available than not.
But I think that the cab sims in these things should always include high cut and low cut filters and have them default at 80hz low cut and 6khz high-cut.
One thing that seems to help with these modelers, to get rid of those high-end artifacts without using the cut filter, is the ribbon 121 mic versus an sm57. Since I started doing this with my modeler, I no longer need the high-end cut filter. In fact they can turn the bright switch on with the amp, including treble, for bright sounds, without the harsh.
This is an interesting idea, gonna give it a try. Thank you!
I love the touch screen with sliders. The unit looks professional and sturdy. On UA-cam it sounds just like most other modelers so i imagine the sound is at least decent in person. I'm admittedly biased in favor of Fender because I was brought up in a Fender household. That being said, I can't see myself buying this new. Maybe after a year of firmware updates, I can snag one used to try out.
You might be bombarding us, but it's new gear. People like to know. Also, if you have an opinion, there will always be people that disagree. No way around that. I like the content. Keep it going.
Actually, with tube amps you find yourself dialing them way darker on stage than what you do at home levels.
It's a byproduct of how both speakers and hearing work.
Your comments about modelers not sounding the same "in the studio" vs. "at volume live" align with my experience too. But frankly, real tube amps also sound quite different when comparing "at home" levels with live levels. Although the differences are different. But this all points to the fact that we need to test and tweak our modelers at gigging volumes one way or the other. Of course, on the flip side, the whole point of modeling (for me anyway) is that you can get your tones at almosst any volume level. I suppose that is true as long as we are willing to tweak to accomodate the desired volume level.
Fletcher Munson curve
@@tonykennedy8483YES... BIG part of it..
There's a physical hit you in the chest component too depending on where you are in the room, and the room reacts to the louder volume levels as well. Couples with it, natural early reflections if not reverb, the works..
But yeah Fletcher Munson is a big part. That's why they used to have those huge Urei soffit mounted co-axial beast speakers with crown MacroTech amps driving them in studios in the 70's and 80's to get you there.. Psychoacoustically we don't hear "flat" until you monitor at around 90db average level.. There's a few recording engineers that lost a bit of their midrange and upper hearing I am sure from monitoring at the levels I was told were flat when I went to recording school..
Thankfully I was a hack and only had a home studio with neighbors around. lol...
I used the Tone Master Pro this morning at church. I had spent the weekend dialing my sounds and wasn’t thrilled live. For the second service I went back to the Helix, it’s tried and true! I do like a lot about the Fender, I just need to tweak it quite a bit
I keep looking at this vs a helix floor (I also kept diving into “what’s up with the QC right now? And apparently, it’s tedious silence on updates since January of 2022 so…my confidence in that thing is waning as a long term investment) and Fender might have been doing this since the Cyber Twin days but I’m -also- skeptical of their commitment to this platform long term…Fender Fuse, anyone? But there’s a lot to like on this thing.
I’m just finding it hard to think of a use case that the Helix can’t also do, and has a lovely track record of updates/support and consistency.
I think that this video though is one of the best dives into it without all the “fluff” and “patting fender on the back even though it’s more expensive than a Quad Cortex.”
So I have a review unit and just happened to toss it in the car with me for our gig this past saturday night. Main gig setup was my recently retubed SLO, OX box and an FRFR behind me with my UA Lion pedal in my bag as my backup amp but I still grabbed the TMP for some reason.
Not 6 songs in, I've got a loud hum coming from the SLO (shame on me I guess for not burning in the tubes and checking that first) so I run to the car and grab the TMP, swap some cables and pulled up whatever the van halen patch is that has the Plexi amp and quite literally right out of the box, the tone was outstanding.
I did upgrade to the newest firmware that has addressed a lot of the complaints about impedance curves and what not but the harshness wasn't there and no fizz in the top end.
It also took all of about 5 minutes after the first set to set some effects to the foot switch controls and I also was easily able to setup a switch to drop the gain on the amp for a bluesy crunch sound and another to toggle a solo boost.
It scored major brownie points for me this weekend in not only sounding great but being (as far as I'm concerned) the easiest modeler to setup and work with I've ever owned and other than the tone x, I've had them all.
I commented on the ample use of the term "digital" in Rhetts video. He was not wrong about it being fizzy, just that's not because it's digital, it's direct and close quartered. It has a wider FRFR bandwidth. It puts the close mic'ed tone in your ears and you never put year ears up to the speaker where the mic is setup. lowpass at 6 to 7K or it will be fizzy. That's nothing to do with digital.
Good point.
You always get the best sounds. Inspiring channel to say the least.
Many a good point in your video John thanks. You have helped me bridge the gap from being stuck playing ONLY my tube amps to making the jump into modeling and actually going for it getting this unit + the Fender Fr12 powered cabinet. I agree 100% that what has put me off when trying modelers before; I hated the interface, and I also hated the gap between what I dialed in at home vs. what it sounds like when there is a drummer and another guitarist / bassist etc. I will say that having the Fender FR12 has so far made my life REALLY easy when it comes to boiling off the extra high end fizz with there being an entire EQ on the top of the cab for really quick adjustments of Bass, Middle, Treble and thank god a cut / pass filter that really takes the nails on the chalkboard sound away from some of the rigs that I have setup currently. Best part is I didn't need to touch the pedal board for adjustments and its a small seamless adjustment of a single knob based on the patch I am running. I am experimenting with various IR's as I have recently acquired several hundred of them in a large bundle, I can feel the optional paralysis setting its claws into me already! Cheers mate!
the whole brighter in the bedroom and darker playing out goes for all gear, amp/digital/guitar/pickups… when playing out at high volumes esp after getting experience w it we seek more mids less highs etc.
True. But it must have been exacerbated with the TMP because John gigs with Helix, HX Stomps, Axe FX FM3 and 9, etc etc all the time with the same conditions, As well as amps with pedals and no modeler. The fact that it is being highlighted is indicating that either there's a lot more that has to be done to tame the TMP or there may be a real firmware fixable issue, I think?
I really liked this video! I just bought mine and have only played with the presets. Now I plan to build up my own. I also have a Quad Cortex, but so far I like the TMP better. So much easier and I like the ProControl software for this setup. Thanks for posting your unbiased videos!
you like the TMP?its sounds better tha the Helix?
Solved with using a Duncan power head and real cab, turn off cab in TMP. Zero fizzy bits.
Real amps n cabs running in return with internal cabs off for some reason always produce best sounds from these units
I appreciate this video. As a gigging musician, I've recently become accustom to modelling and I love it. I currently use the Boss ME90. This looks so much more intuitive, but the price reflects this as well. I will be buying this unit for sure. It took some time to learn the sounds that cut through the mix. What sounds great in your bedroom, sounds significantly different in the band mix - that's a huge learning curve! Being in a cover band for various types of music, modelling is so useful and inspirational. Not to mention, easier on the back cuz I don't have a crew to help load/unload my gear. Setting up is so simple now.
Nice explanation of live use and modellers. It would be nice to see a video that someone like yourself goes through behind the scenes to get such a great tone from these modellers for the videos.
When I set up my Helix (LT) presets for my last band, I used to have the volume as high as I could get to address the high frequency issues, as close to live volume as I could get. Appreciate its not always possible for many people! I am lucky I can play at high volume without annoying anyone, neighbours or otherwise.
i heard Billy Sheehan talk about that phenomenon.. that at higher volumes the sound tends to eq to a "smiley face" curve.. i suppose it`s about physics of the space or the speaker moving at high preasures, but i did find interesting that observation.. he also said that he sets his sounds with more mids to compensate that
Fletcher Munson curve is not a smooth one, it has some ripples in it, but it actually is closer to FLAT at higher volume levels. Highs and lows roll off psychoacoustically for us as listeners as volume levels go down. So, midrange is most of what you hear when you turn the volume down on your listening system.
When I went to a local recording school in the late 80's that curve meant that if you wanted to monitor a mix as it actually "sounds" you had to have the mix up around 90db average.. Which is not good for your hearing, but it sure sounds better..
Back in the 70's true HiFi systems were expensive, and actually assumed people were audiophiles. Most receivers would have a volume control AND a "loudness" button, or some more complicated ones a loudness knob. The loudness Control was a Fletcher Munson compensation EQ curve. The better ones would continuously boost the highs and lows as the volume level was reduced .
I was recently explaining to the drummer in my band why I have gone to a modeler (HX stomp), because he was like, "isn't it all about the amp? What happened to your amp bro?" My number one reason was that it sounds more consistent from gig to gig than my tube amps ever did. I had a lot of experiences plugging into either my 1969 Fender Bandmaster Reverb, or my little Egnater combo, and the sound would just be different from the last time I played through it. Usually weirdly thin, or muffled and shitty. I honestly don't get that with the patches that I use on the Helix, it's kind of always the same, which is great. And if I do get the old "Fletcher Munson scooped at volume" problem, global EQ is right there for me, or I have an EQ block that I have saved and ready to go that compensates for the FM curve that high volume sounds create.
i think it sounds great
Another great video, thanks for sharing some of the love footage as well as all your thoughts on it.
I know a lot of time, thought and work goes into making these videos so I hope you're being paid well for the anti-Fender vendetta. ;)
Another totally fair one from my point of view.
Until you mentioned it must admit I'd forgotten about how shocked I was the first time I played my lovely Helix sounds through a PA system in a pub....totally crestfallen until I worked it out (probably from one of your videos). Cheers.
One tip I came across with my Headrush Prime was to enable a Global EQ. This seems to help. I'd imagine the TMP has a similar feature.
you always seem to reach into my brain and then articulate the question/problems and then answer them! you mentioned user interface and I think I love that the most about this unit seeing you put it to use. Ps. Right at the end of your vid I noticed a 'retain global eq' switch, I guess thats what you need (like you didn't know already) - thanks again!
If you're playing Mr Brightside I actually would love a tutorial from you on how to overcome that insane fingering for the riff lol.
Every preset I have (on the Helix Floor) has a pretty savage rolloff on the high and low ends on the cabs. Always.
Where are you on the high end? 4500?
@@Sheegog1972 Yeah, anywhere from there to 5.5/6ish, depends a bit on the speakers and the mics
It will be interesting to see if Fender sticks with it and continues development or if they just leave it as is as they normally do with this stuff. It seems like a really good first crack at this. If they continue to update it for 4 or 5 yrs and them release a new version that would be awesome.
Plan is at least 8 years for this to be relevant and on top.
"Like feedback through the foldback, these are the gigs of our lives".
Great content John. I respect that you give your thoughts and opinions on this honestly. I’m following along because if I do end up buying one, it’s because of your insight. So thank you.
Don’t forget, there are low and high cut filters right on the Cab Editor page to accomplish this same bandpassing of frequencies that JNC is getting from the global EQ.
I agree that's definitely where I would do the EQ'ing .. But the Global EQ is just the ticket if you are mid-set and realize the whole set of patches sound too bright / dark etc..
I would have done what John did to save the gig from being painful for me as a player...
But I definitely would have gone home and redid the patches individually until I could set the Global EQ flat.. I would want to use the Global EQ only for compensating for a gig in a room that is marble flooring and hard walls as opposed to a club with lots of people and sound dampening stuff on the walls etc..
I would want the global EQ for that purpose based on how I used to use a modeler: The last time I was a gigging paid musician was in the early 2000's and I had a Roland GP-100 and a pair of 1x12 EVM-12L cabs driven by a Mesa Fifty Fifty Stereo tube power amp.. I only ever tweaked the patches THROUGH THAT SAME RIG in the basement of my house at gig volume through the cabinets. So I never really ran into a surprise when I got to the venue.
I also was not sending a separate feed to the venue's sound system because our band was not running the PA, it was the venue's or a hired soundman.. Plugging directly into a board back in 1998 through 2004 or so was NOT the norm.. Sound guys felt most comfortable with mics they knew.
Even In my basement studio, I had a pair of condensers in front of the cabs in fact, because I didn't want to have to deal with any differences I might run into between the feed to Cubase and what I heard in the room with the rest of the band..
Live today is a different story entirely.. Direct to FOH is the norm a lot of the time for modeler users because of stage volume restrictions. I would totally adjust to it and figure out how to make it work as well if I had to, but never had to worry about it back then. And NOW? I will probably do my recording through my audio interface using UA Apollo amp Plugins and doing the effects chains in the DAW, or I will be using the same EV Cabs with a modern solid state stereo amp setup, and for the time being, the NUX Amp Academy and a pedalboard until I settle on (and have money for) a Helix or hopefully Line 6's successor to it. I really gotta say, Form factor and user interface? I am LOVING the Fender...
I completely agree about your point at ~7min .. dialing in a modeller live is a world away from a good studio tone. My 2p on this is that a) cos you're (usually) not just tweaking tone, gain and volume pots until it sound good, it feels really odd and b) if you've had an amp in a pub, you're not mic'ing up .. ever .. so that whole mic'ing layer is at odds with the circumstance ..
At some point I suspect I'll make the change .. but it would be nice to have dedicated controls and cab models/IRs that are designed/intended to make you feel like you're stood in front of the amp .. doubt that'll happen though
Hey John. I am just one of your 92.6 thousand subscribers so I guess you can take this with a grain of salt...you don't owe anyone any apologies. You have a right to your professional opinion as well as anyone. I believe folks that have followed you for any amount of time know that you base your thoughts on the real world use as a long time modeler. I, for one, appreciate the honesty and clarity with which you present you views. So don't ever feel the need to apologize. We know what you mean...on the other hand...that shark.....
100 percent. (and I missed the shark.. I need to put my glasses on and watch this shit again 🤣)
Not sure if I have posted this before (apologies if I have), but the Mission SP1-TMP (co branded and custom paint) unlocks things like volume control, wah and a lot of cool creativity/control. Fender also made it reeeeally easy to set up the expression and the toe switch. Control up to 5 parameters at once and use the toe switch to turn off one or all effects. Be great to see a video covering this :-)
John, any chance that I can convince you to share, sell or upload to the cloud your EJ lead settings? 😁 Sounds fantastic in this video.
Frankly, it sounds great in your demos.
I don’t think they are there yet. Mustang LT vibes…
Great point about the translation from home to gig. Those of us old enough to have played when we were rolling in 100 watt amps and 4x12s to clubs, even the amps sound different when you get somewhere. I had to do that all the time with my rig in the 80s and 90s. I generally on dirty sounds will have a hi cut down to 6k or even 3k depending on the sound, then out to the post effects.
I also think people expect the newest thing out to be the be all end all of everything. No amp is that, no pedal is that, why should a modeler be that?
I can’t believe how quickly you can assign foot switches to turn effects on and off. It literally takes seconds. I’d still be watching a Leon Todd or Cooper Carter video to figure out how to do it on the Axe-FX.
HX Stomp has had this from the start. Light touch on the foot switch and the UI asks if you want to assign it.
Takes like 5 sec.
I have a Helix LT that I've been gigging for quite some time. I use that for gigs where I need more complicated rigs and multiple different sounds. I have a Hughes & Kettner Ampman Vintage that I love for certain simpler sounds, but I've recently grabbed a Tonex Pedal for times when I really only need a simple 'guitar-into-amp' sound. I was NOT disppointed the Tonex didn't have an effects loop (because I know better) but I WAS a little bummed they didn't have balanced XLR outs. I use a small DI box with it, but it would be GREAT if it had that built in as that's kinda the whole point of owning this is to simplify my rig and be able to carry my "amp" in the poscket of my gig bag. I won'y be considering this unit as I don't feel the price would give me that much more than I already have available.
Does it sound more natural than Tonex Pedal?
Hi John, can u do some blind comparison between HXStomp amp and Fender TMP int the future? It could be very interesting!
I can try yes - will go for something simple like Fender DVerb, Vox and Friedman tones?
@@johnnathancordy yes, it could be very interesting! Maybe also some overdrive pedal comparison, because I saw recently Anderson review with a comparison with other modelers, helix inclused. I had the same feelings of them about helix in that comparison (less dynamics and darker sound) using the preset amp, but maybe it is just me that I don't have the ability to recreate a credible sound ahahah
@@johnnathancordyYes that would be awesome.
What can I say…great blue Jean shirt John!!
The cab sim outputs on the Tone Master amps suffer from the same fizzyness but even in just a studio recording setting, I’m finding I need to put a low pass on the eq or just use a third party IR.
Same thing happen with amps too, settings for home use are vastly different to the live use.
I took one home the other day. Cool unit. I prefer the feel and simplicity of my ua dream 65. Returning the tm pro. And hopefully ua releases a Marshall soon!
I thought the Friedman model around the 30:00 mark sounded fantastic.
Do you publicize a list of your gigs to attend? I'll be visiting the UK soon on vacation and could be cool to see
i guess my interest in this device is because i like a quick and easy way to get to an end result and don't like to have to go back and edit things. set up two rigs max and just play and have it sound good enough each room at a gig. and the fizz top end cut global would be perfect. thanks for the honest review.
Have you considered gigging with the speakers that Fender made for this unit? Do you think that may eliminate some of the problems?
Love the lick at 0:52
I went through modeling when it first came out into the early 2000’s. ART, Line 6 Johnson millennium. It’s hard to go back. I love pedals into to my amps.
Pre 200'0s here lol, I was using a Roland GP-100 It was so much warmer and more natural sounding than any of the stuff that followed for like 10 years after it. Until the AxeFXII or III came along, Robert Fripp and apparently Devin Townsend were still using their GP-100s
@@user-hc2rz6vs8h Cool didn't know that! As of the Premier Guitar 2019 Touring Rig rundown, he had a pair of AxeFX II XLs (and a pair of Eventide H3000's and some other older gear.. He likes what he likes :) When did he change over to the Helix from the Fractal?
@@user-hc2rz6vs8hI wonder if he takes the Helix around as a self contained floor unit for fly gigs and impromptu stuff? It is a lot easier to program and get around than an FM9 or FM3 I think, and has the scribble strips and the whole magilla in one unit including the expression pedal..
As a working musician, TLDR - I got the new TC Electronic Combo 65 which looks like an amp, with analog old school knobs you turn and they do what they're supposed to, and gigged with it, and it was like having a fender amp. Size of two boss pedals. 150 euro. Case closed for me.
This is a super good video. I don't even want to buy one of those gadgets but I have learned a lot in sound design.
On the Fender Mustang GTX100 I pretty much have to run it with the bright cut turned on because I think it's a bit fizzy and too much in the high end. That combined with having the volume loud enough seems to get it in something like amp territory. I'm not surprised that the ToneMaster Pro is similar in that regard.
I love that you effectively demoed it with our set list 😅 Just need Dakota next….
Have you tried the FR-12 with the Fractal?
Thanks John! I say you really have a handle on setting up some really nice tones quickly. Your ear for sweet sounding tones is very impressive not to mention your liquid touch on the guitar. I am very impressed with how you handle these modelers! I always end up going back to my physical amps and pedals after becoming frustrated by programing modelers. When I watch you I keep imagining the possibilities these units posses for amazing sounds but my experience has not resulted in outcomes like yours. Maybe it has to do with my ear for creating sounds in that I tend to get lost in creating a sound then when I come back and listen later I think "OMG! That sounds like garbage!". How did you get to where you are in programming these wonderful tones?
You know, I found myself in the same situation when setting up patches more recently with the couple of lower end modeling devices I have (NUX Amp Academy and the Mighty Plug Pro for example) and I think a lot of it boils down to something I learned from John, ROLL THE TOP off especially if you are listening to the modeler through headphones or studio monitors etc... Your ears can at first perk up a bit with the high end stuff, but they fatigue in the upper midrange and higher frequencies after like 30 minutes or so and your perception of how harsh the patch is can get dulled. When you come back, it can sound all brittle... Err on the side of a darker tone at the cab sim, and you will find that it still can sound cutting and smoldering and chewy and still have some bright harmonics in it, but they are just not fatiguing to the ear, and when there is a mix going on, the high end hash not being there makes the whole mix sound less harsh..
they should have a quick setting that sets it in home use mode or live mode with proper eq
Any new thoughts on this now they've released updates?
What I haven’t managed to found out is how to trigger songs from the set list via MiDI as I normally do, you can change patches but not songs it seems which is weird.
If only a small pub covers band had a guitarist this good, they’d be bearable!.
Global EQ is persistent (there is an option for it)… also, you should be doing frequency cuts at the cab
Thanks for another great video John!
Great review and great job dialing in the Friedman lead tone. I'm thinking that maybe the default EQ having the full spectrum audio range is to accommodatevand include keyboards and vocal nuances as opposed to just guitar/amps.
It would be great to have multiple EQ options saved for different instruments to accommodate the more life-like 6-8k roll off that we find in our typical guitar and amp rigs.
As you mentioned, even the Fractal AF III cabs need to be rolled off on the low and high end when You're building presets from scratch.
Also, and just as important, is that you really need to have a couple preset types for each preset regardless of which modeler you are using.
One preset for bedroom/recording use, and one variation of that preset for live use. Because inevitably they are going to sound different and call for emphasis on different frequencies depending on the band you're playing with and even the venue itself.
I saw Rhetts review and I think he way overshot his criticism of the unit without putting forth the effort you should to learn the system and produce a good sound. He did the same thing with the Fractal.
I think Rhett is more inclined towards something more simple that has already been worked out,band requires less user input. I think he likes Line6 and Kemper stuff, and maybe is a bit stuck in the 7 or 8 year old modeling tech world.
Appreciate all the work into this, I still want to hear through the Fr-10 or 12.
Check out Ola Englund's recent video on the Tone Master Pro. I forget if he ran it through the 10in or 12in speaker but it sounded absolutely immense.
I'm still not sold on the TMP yet, but I'm probably going to buy that FRFR speaker regardless. It sounds just as good if not better than the Line 6 Powercab and the Headrush FRFR speakers to my ears
I did, want to hear more than metal.
@@brianphelps1183 I mean he got some pretty great clean and crunchy edge of breakup type tones out of it as well
having a bit of a dumb moment is the first song he played a queen or a thin lizzy track?
edit: (nevermind i remembered its moore’s solo on get out of here, I’ve always loved that solo though it sounded so silly but is fantastic)
I'm not impressed. At this stage, it's best to wait and see what Line 6 will bring out as a replacement to Helix. Surely, it can't be that far off now. That will give a better feel of where the technology is at now and the processing power these floor units can deliver.
@@user-hc2rz6vs8h for the same reason that we're not using a VHS to watch a movie anymore. Every technology based product has a life cycle. Technologies evolve, processing power, heat management, component sizes etc. new processors will allow greater computational calculations for "better models" etc. That's just how it always goes. I can't think there are many people now who want to go out and buy a brand new helix.
I mean, it depends on the scene (Blues, Country, etc. still analog dominated), but aren't there plenty of bands already touring with rigs like the Helix, Quad Cortex, Fractal or otherwise modeled setups? The industry isn't exactly "waiting on the tech" anymore.
Line 6 aren't replacing the helix they said last year
Well said about the gap between how modelers sound at studio and when you hit the front of the house with it...
Hi Great Video Can You you do scenes like the FM9 or the FM3 thanks 🙏
I’ve never wanted a unit like this - Kemper, Axe Fx etc etc. Too much technology, learning, fidgeting and so on. But I’m really liking this. Looks very intuitive and easy to get around. Plus, it sounds good. But man, it’s almost €2k 🤦♂️
Would have loved if the camera was turned around for the little noodly bits like at 15:00 and before...some neat little licks in there that is like to snag. Would sub for a quick "licks" vid! 😁
Also, QC's editor program has been around in beta for a little while now, too. That's an absolute must-have for my work flow. Have had an Axe-FX II for...like...6 years now. Might grab a QC to play with now.
I like the best clean tone like 65 twin I find the cheaper floor units aren’t the best for clean tones
I had never played the TMP myself but as much as I hate Fender as a brand, I have to say TMP really nailed the clarity and the warmth on the bottom of the pick attacks you only get in a tube amp, better than the Helix as far as what I hear in all the demos online.
And I say this as a Helix guy myself.
JNC, I don't know whether your valve amps still need fixing, but you might want to check out Jon Dickinson's Amplification in Crystal Palace, London SE19. He makes/designs his own guitar amps. His battered workshop is like stepping into a Harry Potter movie, full of sad broken 1960s Fender/Marshall/Vox valve amps that he's mending. Highly recommended by me (although I'm a nobody) :) . Note: I have no pecuniary link to Jon but he's fixed up my stuff in the past. Not expensive either.
I HAVE BEEN USING IN AMP MODERLERS FOR A LONG TIME ROLAND CUBES, VOX VALVE TRONIC, ROLAND BLUES CUBES. THESE ALL SOUND GOOD LIVE. I OWN A ROLAND GT1000 MULTI EFFECT BUT HAVE NOT PUT IN THE TIME TO MASTER IT. ALL GEAR NEEDS A LIVE STAGE SET UP FOR EQ AND STAGE LEVEL. THIS IS WHY YOU DO A SOUND CHECK BEFORE THE SHOW. BEST WAY IS TO SET LEVELS FOR SOLO LEVEL, SAME AS LEAD VOCAL LEVEL, THEN BRING IT DOWN TO BACKING LEVEL.
Why are you shouting?
I love my HX Stomp to death but I keep going back and forth about having my tube preamp pedal on the loop because of all this.
I run a crazy tube circuits tube drive to warm up my helix too. Works great.
That’s a no ending topic. You know what? Have a couple of Guinness before the rig as the crowd do and everything will be fine 😂
I think it's important to remember that; just because you are using a modeling device, it doesn't mean you have to throw away your on-stage speaker and give total control to whoever is mixing the "house". I thought that Fender providing a speaker to work with this unit was just right for that reason. Way back in the 60's when I played big venues, they would mic everything so tight that they could take control away from the band even then. We always resisted spreading out too far on-stage, so we could still create our audible zone settup. You need to hear a mix that sounds familiar, at the minimum, to play well. I'm not familiar with in-ear monitoring, but I spent hundreds of hours playing with headphone mixes in studios, so I assume that has a similar "buffer effect" on your mix, and relative tone. i still think most "house" systems are profiled for vocal range output.
I mean, it sounds like you were playing guitar! Pretty sure you’d make any piece of equipment sound incredible.
Sounded great. At gig
I had issues updating and it sounded terrible. I reinstalled firmware without factory reset afterwards and that seems to have fixed the liaising issues I temporarily had. Sounded much like Rhett issues he described. Not noticing it now after reinstall.
There’s loads of stuff that needs improving. Tuner is ok but can’t adjust frequency. It is hard to separately control outputs from headphone levels. In fact the the output control in general is frustrating. Great videos John keep them coming there is loads that could be improved to make this a really good bit of gear and if no one has the guts to say what needs saying then nothing gets really good. Cannot rely on a lot of influencers who mist over stuff.
Could really do with parametric EQ … quad cortex EQ is now brilliant so hoping fender will improve this.
I think you can lock the global EQ in settings. Not sure.
Effects loops need pan and blend/ mix controls
It’s a real shame you had to buy your unit fender should have put you first on there list and then buckled up BUTTERCUP . They made a good unit it is never going to be perfect without constructive criticism
And why just now mic / line input .. put 2 balanced mic line/ instrument inputs on the front end like QC did
2 movable stereo effects loops is the basic some us use drum machines and foot drums and synths and lap steels and just MORE PLEASE! ! 2023 and I’m waiting since helix for 2 movable stereo MOFO effects loops with no compromise. …. Cheers I’m done
Sounds pretty damn great to me
When you set up the modeller at home/in the studio, did it sound dark through the matching Fender FR12 cab? I wonder if there is a way to set that up so it gives a similar feel to PA speakers (ie so you only have to do minor eq tweaks)
I am 10 min in your video and I already have some questions. I saw you playing at the gig ( not live but on screen) and I know these places. I cuz a wedding or a party. And for those places its must be a great instrument. But in the days we all have big flightcases and sometimes big hair. Which also slowly falls off. But aren't you afraid of some party/wedding juice runs over the stage and there is your precious Fender amp. Still big fan of your playingstyle and your honest reviews.
@johnnathancordy what's the name of your band - would be great to see you play live if you ever come up close
This is the reason why I gave up on modellers. Between headphones, FRFR, endless eq'ing, playing through the fx loop it was just an utter job lot of time wasting.
Really all rooms are different and eq will always be required to a degree for all Instruments to get a pleasant/useful sound - I get what your saying it was way to bight and lacked some girth - dialing it in first time out should be expected though -
What you are describing in the first 10 mins of the video (studio vs live) is common across modellers and is not specific to the Fender.
It is recommended by several forums to create presets for live using the same volume at home.
Exactly what I used to do in 1998 through 2004 with the ancient Roland GP-100 rig I had.
You can’t even begin to dial in a reliable gig sound without dialling in gear at gig volume, regardless of the gear used. I’m kind of surprised this is still a conversation. That’s without taking into consideration how different venues will radically alter our perception of sound.
Godddd damn the Friedman lead tone man!!!!! Stankface!!!!!!
How does the hx stomp with a midi controller (say... a mc6) compare?
Please reference the massive recent update with the TMP.
John, I hope you can help me with programming on my TMP. I come from from the Helix Floor that I have gigged with since it's introduction. On the Helix, I have one preset for each song. I can have up to four snapshots within preset. Typically, I have Intro, Verse, Chorus and Lead. Each snapshot turns a block on or off, or I change parameters on a block. Now for the question: can I do the same thing on the TMP? If so, how? It seems like I have to treat each preset as a separate snapshot. Thank you!