Hold up, you're telling me that people (even pros) are using tires that are too narrow and that a tire that is wider than what we currently consider to be "fast" is actually faster?!?!?! Well I for one am shocked.
Hi! So, yes, I did take a tumble when ol'mate clipped a pedal in the penultimate corner, just come out of surgery, and a few months of recovery ahead. I did want to mention a few other participation events with the TDU. AusCyclingSA put on a whole bunch of group rides, ranging in distance from 30km to 90-ish, led by local club members around a variety of routes. They were free, and capped at 30 riders per ride leader (which was the main choke point - we didn't have enough ride leaders to meet the demand.) Escape Collective did a great article on the death of the mass-participation gran fondo a few months ago, which is worth a read. The biggest problem is obviously cost, primarily insurance, but also permitting. I ,personally, am unwilling to spend $250 to ride around a course I can ride every day with a cheap as chips jersey. That said, the Bupa challenge rides were how I got into cycling, bakc in 2012, so they play an important part in the cycling ecosystem. I'd love some suggestions on how to run events which are inclusive, but affordable.
Guys! So cool to see that the NERO Approved sticker caught on! LMAO Congrats on the recognition and on another cracking episode, always makes my day! Greetings from Spain
Congratulations on the "Nero-Show Approved" badge! It's a milestone the two of you should celebrate as a marker of just how far this show has come and the level of influence on the cycling community
TOUR MAGAZINE has published an aero study proving that even on a narrow but well-designed rim like the DT Swiss/swiss side 50 (C20/C27), the aero impact of a wide tire was very limited. For example, only 2 watts of loss at 45 kmh 32mm vs 28mm, they tested up to 38mm tires and there was only 6w of loss compared to a 28mm.
Shh. You're ruining the marketers attempts to sell more stuff most people don't need. I mean....I need a new bike and new tyres and new rims to go fast and enjoy cycling
For probably 5 years pre covid, I was meeting mates from all around Australia in Adelaide for the TDU. Usually at least a 10 day trip. We would generally not watch the race in person, but do a decent morning ride, and by the time we rolled into town, we could watch the end of the stage on a big screen somewhere, and then roll back to the house. I love my road racing, but generally have little to no interest in hanging around on the roadside for a race to wizz past. Pro racing is made for TV. We would never really invest in any of the events either. The whole trip was a social catch-up between mates. Ride in the morning, arvo beers and dinner, repeat. That's the Tour Down Under for me. That's my experience with something like the Tour de France too. I love riding in the places where they race, but not when the race is actually there.
The interesting part about the tire tests is that there was not much mention of rim width to tire width aerodynamics. This test could send people in the wrong direction if they have narrow wheels and are trying to put wider tires on. You want the tire width to be seamless with the rim from an aerodynamic perspective. This is why the results were greater at faster speeds. When they show the profile you can see that the 32 is optimized for that rim width. For my particular wheels on my TCR the widest I can run is 28 before you get tire bulge. For Chris this test proves he should be on 32, but for Jesse it would be dependent on his rim width which is probably good for his current max 28 wide tires.
In a theoretical sense or a TT, this is true. But I think the point Jeff’s video was trying to make is in a crit circuit especially when surface is not perfectly smooth, the wider tire is still faster than the narrower aero-optimised tire (probably due to vibration loss being larger than aero loss)
@@BQS1234 Right, but the aero optimized tire in his test was the 32mm tire. When looking at the tire vs rim widths you can see the 32mm matches up the best. I was just speculating based on other studies that this is the main reason why the 32 was the best. If the rim had been narrower, I would be interested to know if there was much of any difference between the 28 and 32 with the 28 performing as good or better and the 32 and 34 performing worse. I imagine this has some to do with why world tour teams don't all run massively wide tires. Depending on the wheels they "have" to run, the optimal tire width may be narrower than if they had a wider wheel available.
Can we just appreciate Chris' hair. Someone's been to Hambinis hairdresser! Sharp AF. Btw jessie you cant fit a 30mm conti in the tcr rim if you're prepared to dremel a bit off the brake caliper. I did and it fits.
I think what’s missing on the tyre discussion, is pressure. Pressure produces different responses with different tyre widths. Increasing/decreasing rolling resistance, and increasing/decreasing comfort etc.
I appreciate your show and your opinions but calling to cancel an uci sanctioned race because the actions of a handful of people involved is a bit much.
I agree its a shame the TDU Challenge / BUPA ride was not on - Going back 10 years they used to get 6000+ participants - I wonder what changed ? I recall 2018 it was cancelled due to the 40+ temps - maybe people have been scared off by the conditions in January ? Last year I did it and participants were way down around 1500 - which i think still justifies running it as i seem tor recall paying $90 entry fee. Would be interested though in why the numbers have been dropping over the years ? .... and yes I agree - have been seeing lots more ladies out on road bikes - great for the sport !
I’m on those tubeless valves and you can indeed inject sealant through the valve. Not the chunky one of course, but if you’re on Silca, it’s only messy the first time, after that just inject and go. Crappy thing is with regular core valves, you can stick something in there to check the sealant level. Can’t do that with the fancy ones.
You guys clearly don't know what homophobia is. E3 has edgy images that cause controversy every single year. It's literally their marketing strategy. Whether you find it funny, edgy or disgusting is your choice. The fact that you don't find it funny, or even when no one finds it funny, does not make it homophobic. Also, E3 has stated that not a single complaint was recieved from the LGBT-community. All the 'controversy' is just some winers online who think they have to defend everyone by taking offence in everything. Also also, in what way is your response of calling the 'stereotypical Belgian cyclocross fan', which you know fuck all about, homophobic acceptable? You're calling out a joke whilst simultaneously doing crazy generalisation. What a hypocrisy.
Virtue signalling social justice woke whiners 🙄 By all means condone it. By all means deride it. But please remember it’s only your opinion and some of us were here for cycling tech and not your moral assessment.
Another excellent show lads. Liked the discussion about TDU. Our group didn't go this year but your analysis was interesting. Re the Bupa, we did that in about 2018 but haven't done it since. We don't race it and decided that we didn't need to pay $100 to ride the Adelaide Hills when we could do it for free. Jesse's point about the decline of road racing is well made.
The comfort advantage, and reduced body fatigue with wider tires is impossible to objectively measure, but will be cumulative with longer rides therefore making the wider tires even more advantageous.
I liked your discussion about the fondo. When you talk about gravel being where things are headed, I think it's only to the extent that things are headed in the direction that is accessible for them, and some of that is the result of what gets organized or what opportunities are presented. I think the accessibility of gravel (in many places in the world, perhaps not in Australia) holds merit, in that people can be away from cars and ride anywhere without having to deal with traffic and aggressive drivers. But part of the point of some Fondos is to make those big rides on roads safe and accessible for the day of the event. Part of the reason that gravel IS growing in lots of places is that people want to go on a long ride away from cars. A Fondo is something that this provides! I think the decline of fondos is a shame, especially when more people that ever, I think, are looking for safe opportunities to go on great rides.
The radl gravl did sell out so there would've been more participants. Bring back the TDU GRAND FONDO please 🙏 . Very disappointed they scrapped it, im new to cycling and doing it last year sparked a fire that helped me train all year for it 😢
I use silca sealant and filmore valves. Both are awesome. When I top off with stage 2 sealant, I send it straight through the valve. No clogging issues what so ever
One thing from the NorCal video, they were riding by themselves where aero differences would be more pronounced, in a bunch this wouldn’t be as big of an issue, but all so the rolling resistance benefits for the larger tires would be there. So I bet in real life situation where there’s at least some riding in the groupis the wider tires would be even better.
The big thing is gravel is a thing and being pushed because you then surrender the roads again to cars. Which will get governments and local councils to breathe a sigh of relief that they don't have to deal anymore with bike vs car issues.
on my bike with the 32 mm tires sometimes I have to look at the tire because I think it’s going flat because it is so comfortable and almost a little bit squishy but my times are really good on my segments on Strava so I don’t think I’m losing time it’s just a different feel
You are correct with regards to the WVA cartoon in that other mainstream sports would have had more severe response...I just wish you would show the same level of outrage when trans females are allowed to compete with cis women in ANY sport, nut just cycling. Especially when the vast majority of women in those sports are afraid to speak out on their own behalf due to sponsor backlash. It's easy to express outrage on the clearly inappropriate posts, which this certainly was, show some courage.
I think there are caveats around the tyre size in that the wheels used were optimised around a wider tyre with a 34mm outer & 21mm inner width. It would be interesting to see a re-run with similar depth wheels, but a rim width optimises for each width. The Aerocoach wheels are an example of this. Their fastest TT front wheel has been used by a number of world tour teams. It is built around a 23mm tyre. They then offer a slightly slower wheel optimised for a wider tyre. These are primarily TT wheels, so aerodynamics given the speed travelled become more important, but it highlights that tyres should match the rim.
Hmm. That's a good question there. But as far as I understand the latest tests show that benefits of decrease in vibration losses with wider tires greatly outweigh benefits of aerodynamics of the narrower tires. So even if this aerodynamically optimized narrow tire+rim combination will be faster in wind tunnel it will lose more Watts on the road comparing to wider tire+rim combo. Unless you're riding on a velodrome of course🤓 Anyways it gonna be interesting to see where we go 5-10 years from now
@romankarabutin3781 I think that depends on speed (and surface). In a TT there is still a place for the mullet setup - narrow (by modern standards! As 23, 25's & 28's still blow out quite wide) on the front with a wider rear. Aerocoach don't just use aerodynamics in their tyre / wheel data but combined rolling resistance & tyre widths. As you get towards 30mph you are obviously pushing more aero than at 23mph so the ratio of gains in rolling resistance vs aerodynamics isn't linear but an cubic curve as drag increases cubed but RR doesn't. Flo wheels have a chart for gravel riding with the watts distribution between drag & RR from 1mph to 30mph. A 1mph more power is overcoming RR than drag, by 10mph the distribution is even, from that point the watts being used to over come drag mske up an ever increasing percentage of the overall watts required. So I am sure it will be speed specific.
Did tests between 25 and 32 tubeless contis 3 years ago. Roll test down a 2.6k hill Ave 6 .7% gradient. 90 psi 25's 55 psi 32's. Same bike, spokes, hubs. Rims optimized for each tire. 32's consistently 6-12 seconds quicker.
I cannot believe that you call for sanction of a classic race because of a very bad taste. Nobody should be punished for a joke, even if it is very bad. Be a little more relaxed and take it like Ricky Gervais: "Inclusion means that fun is made of everything and everybody."
I have a tcr so i can run 32s but i bought some secons hand carbon wheels with a 19 mm internal and 27 external so ik currently running 25s but I want to try wider but I dont know what to get
I have a tcr as well and my wheels are 20mm internal and 27mm external. I have 28mm conti gp 5000 tubeless on the front and they are perfectly flush and prefect for the tyre so with only a mm difference internally I’m sure you can too. I run a 30mm on the back as it does lightbulb a bit but it’s ok as it won’t make any difference for speed as you’re body is in the way and won’t get so much dirty air around it. But I reckon you can run 28mm front and back if you’re unsure
I am pretty sure they canned the grand fondo due to rising costs associated with insurance, road blocks, permits ect and lower participation numbers last year.
Another great episode as always boys. Cheers 🍻. As you guys talked about NorCal video and have talked about other channels on the podcast and have talked about wanting to grow the cycling community and get more people involved and watching specially here on UA-cam. Why not have a small segment to show love and support to small channels and new creators like myself or many other that put a lot of work in to making great videos and they do get a lot of positive feedback but it would help them to get more people watching and in to the community. It don’t have to be an every episode thing but maybe every few months if u guys find a small channel that are worth a mention by the support they get and how good their content is. I look forward to Thursdays because I know there will Be a video from you guys 🙏😂.
The Tour de Brisbane is a brilliant Gran Fondo/race, the long race was 110km of fully closed roads in the middle of Brisbane, highways & bus ways, it supposedly had over 6,000 participants last year in the various events.
Why you can’t do the Bupa Gran Fondo & Radl Gravl both blows my mind. We need more events not less. Sure we can grow gravel but not by shrinking the road scene.
I have guys on my Strava who spent the week in Adelaide during the TDU and they were doing 100km+ group rides everday. There were that many rides going on during the TDU. Jesse has lost the plot. Who care about a silly Bupa ride that you have to pay for when there were free grand fondo rides you could do any of the days.
Well said. There were tonnes of numbers out riding, racing and viewing. I think they are overvaluing people's desire for a fondo when there are rides every day for free.
Was feeling bad that i fitted 32mm 5000STR on my new look optimum, was going ro swap back to a 30 or 28 next year. But after this i feel ao much better, nevwr going back to smaller aized tire. The comfort.and grip is out of the world
Chris, I wanted to add a comment on the state of cycling in mainstream media in Melbourne. The Cadel Evans Road Racing series of events was over the Australia Day long weekend. Probably the 2nd biggest cycling event in Australia after the TDU and while there was good TV coverage on 7+, it rates barely a mention in the the papers on Friday and Monday. To be honest there was more on Horse Racing, Cricket, Soccer and AFL (which has not even started as yet). To your point cycling does have an image problem and in Melbourne at the moment I would say a fair amount of that is based around safety and participation in cycling on the roads.
I got a new Vitus TT bike in 2021 and run 25mm on it from day one. I swapped to a 28mm tyre and went tubeless last year and all my times over all the course marginally improved for the same power out put. The one thing I do find weird is it feels slow but it’s not. When I started riding TT’s we used 19mm tubs, so it’s a big change.
My gf got a gravel bike and she has pretty much no interest in riding road anymore. Nicer scenery most of the time, safer (no traffic), slower pace/less stress on performance. Its keeping her interest in cycling though so i guess that’s what matters
The fillmore valves are great! They have a lifetime warranty, they allow enough air through to seat the tires without a tubless pump, if you want to lower your pressure you can unscrew the cap a little & it acts as a release valve! It won't clog with most sealants but it will with the silca stuff(maybe not the top up liquid but I just break the bead anyway)
Only issue w/ Reserve valves; you can’t use a stick to measure how much sealant is present. You have to take the tire off. Presta valve can be removed and the sealant level measured with a small stick (Q tip without the cotton, if the wheels aren’t that deep)
Love the show fellas. I really enjoy tuning into and hearing the different topics you discuss. As someone who is newer to cycling, I do find the doom & gloom of the state of road cycling that you've covered lately to feel a little disappointing. From an American view point, the crit and group ride scene seems very strong, hopefully you can see it turn around in Australia.
I’ve been using 32mm Conti GP 5000 tubeless paired with Princeton Wake 6560 wheels for three years. Princeton says the Wake 6560 is optimized for 32 mm tires which is why I tried it to begin with, proof they’re faster. I just did a group ride of four guys yesterday. 41 miles distance averaging 21.3 mph. I averaged 202 watts while my buddy averaged 225 watts. We were riding the same bike and we both weigh 183 lbs. He rides the conti 28mm and me the 32. He rides a Tarmac SL7 pro, me the SWorks. He has the latest version of the 6560 wheels with White Industry hubs, I have the three year old 6560 with Industry nines. I’ve been trumpeting this fact for years however most folks are still skeptical.
Heaps of guys down here in Melbourne ride gravel. Jesse is once again in his bubble thinking no one rides a gravel bike just because he lives in Sydney.
You guys need to interview the president or treasurer of a few road race clubs that are putting on road events to get a sense of the frustrations we as road racing clubs are suffering ATM.
Death of Fondo - there was a group of about 10 of us who would travel to ADL for TDU from MEL but now, no one goes. The factors are, no peoples ride and the absolute ridiculous cost of domestic travel now…….cheaper to go overseas. Cost is killing Fondos in Australia, flights and/or accommodation, Audax another victim of this in Victorian Alps.
Okay. I have a triathlon bike. The tires are 25mm. After I put a suspension stem on the handlebars it felt comfortable and fast. Don't know if I was faster. Maybe it is the suspension effect of wide tires.
I have converted all my wheels to the Fillmore valves, because of clogging issues I had. You can definitely fill your tires with sealant through the valve.
I’d like to see a tubeless setup vs TPU inner tube comparison test especially with wider tires like 34mm. I noticed a difference going to TPU from light weight tubes, more comfortable and almost 100gm lighter per wheel.
@@user-lw7xo6zs6n Maybe if we keep it up, we'll be treated next week to a 5 minute long intro whining about how people in the comment section are so "insensitive." 😛
Hunt figured out the whole external wide rim (35mm) and tire combo with their limitless series wheels back in 2018ish. Copied by Specialized, Ascent, Reserve etc. I run 32mm on 48 Limitless “22.5mm” internal (really 23mm) HOOKED and the tire balloons out to 34mm, still close to rule of 105% Best overall I think would be 23mm internal, 35mm external, with 30mm front and 32mm rear. The tire to rim transition doesn’t seem to really be of that much importance, what’s important is having it lightbulb just enough for comfort and lower rolling resistance , but still overall transition to a rim wider than the tire.
One thing I don't see talked about much is how wider tires = lower PSI = better sealant properties. I'm also tapped out at 28s, and would consider a new bike/frame just to get pressures down to where tubeless actually doesn't suck. great episode (again!).
Love this show, I think GCN used calipers on Pogacar’s tires at the 2023 TDF when they were looking at bikes and they came out to 32/33mm wide (28c on ENVE rims); I could be wrong though. Anywho, awesome show like always.
I run sram red axs 12 speed with shimano cassette, chain, rotors and 11 speed ultegra chainrings on quarq dub four power meter. All works fine together and the quietest drive train every.
Re: Fillmore valves It sounds like you haven't actually tried them yet, so let me address your comments (I have these on all my gravel and mtb wheels, as of last season). 1) Yes, you can inject sealant directly through the valve (much easier than with a normal presta). The only exception is Silca sealant (which will plug almost anything). 2) The difference in air flow versus a presta is unbelievable. I never have a problem seating tires anymore. 3) The Fillmore cap does two things. It allows you to micro-adjust the air pressure more finely than is possible with a presta. Second, it serves to secure the valve so there is no accidental air discharge. Screwing down a presta valve achieves the same thing, i.e. tightening the cap of the Fillmore is the same as screwing down the head of a presta, so there is essentially no difference between the two in this regard (a presta cap is simply a dust protector). 4) The Fillmore design eliminates the clogging that occurs inside the valve stem with a presta over time ( I used to have to unscrew my presta cores and periodically remove dried on sealant so the valves would seal properly). Cheers!
The whole reason tires are getting 'faster' and 'fatter' is to sell new, cheaper to produce wheels that require lower pressures and different tire sizes to not self destruct or cause problems.
I tried this and felt super slow. But admittedly never at a high pace. Just off season z2 noodling. As mentioned in the show too, how it feels can often be at odds with how it is actually performing,
Its like talking about the improvements in airflow over the mirrors on a Le Mans Porsche at 300km/h. Its unlikely to make any real difference to the rest of us. Generally we would be better off losing some weight and work on race craft and fitness if we want to get to the finish line sooner. A good thing about wider tires we can all appreciate is they are way comfier than narrow tires at high pressure. Much more grip too I feel.
Just listened here in South Carolina..while setting up tubeless..with Fillmore valves.. I had just tried squeezing Orange Seal through and I pretty much popped the hose off trying to when you said you couldn’t do it. Pedal On‼️
Surprised Jesse has not experienced the blockage with Silica. Give it a few more weeks I suspect since it tried to fill every hole. I am about to try HI FLOW 'No Clog' Tubeless Valves by 76 Projects . Yes you should be able to inject the regular liquid sealants. However this would apply only to the Silica replenisher.
The 2 / 3/ 5 Dams Grand Fondo by West Cycle was canceled from this year onwards Western Australia citing insurance costs. However filling its place is a Hills Grand Fondo which has been revived after being knocked out by Covid.
About the Silca sealant, works great when fresh but after 180 days is like glue inside , open your tires if Don’t believe me. Gilmore valves were designed and developed by Reserve( Santa Cruz) . Chris explanation of the Filmore valve is very limited , there is a core and works the same way but is not removable
Hey Jesse, do you think part of inclusion is being open to being mocked? If you are just joining a club and people starting taking the piss with some playful banter its part of the process of inclusion. Your take on this comic was pretty unhinged in my opinion, scrap the race? haha ridiculous. With these new modern politics its exclusion if you don't acknowledge a group and it's unacceptable if you start folding them in with some light hearted banter?
Yes. I thought it was hilarious. The marker for things becoming accepted is their ability to sustain being laughed at or made fun of. Laughing at yourself is a sign of self-awareness and humility.
Definitely re SRAM with shimano discs - I run dura ace discs on my SRAM red. And valve “clot” definitely has been an issue for me. Helps to store valves “upward” as in not valve down. It at least makes some sense.
A two part sealant makes so much sense to me since its presumably just the portion of the sealant that evaporates or whatever that needs topped up. Ill try tubeless eventually
Love the show as always guys. Let's not get too precious about a joke though, can't watch anything without outrage and cancel culture creeping in. This joke would get told by so many people in real life. It may not be to everyone's taste but we shouldn't take everything so seriously
I recently put 28´s and 30´s with the 303Firequest on my Endurance bike, and it's really comfortable. But it takes time getting used to it, that it feels "slow". Acceleration fells a bit sluggish.
I don't understand gravel. There is basically zero chance of you winning in the larger races. I can see if you are in top 20 how it might be worth training for a 200 mile race but without really segmented groups or team standings, the competition just isn't the same as road. At least in road if you puncture, your race isn't over because the mechanics can being you back to the group. If I want to ride with my friends I can do that for free anytime I want and I won't be paying $200 just to ride a course that somebody made. Omg you get to ride with retired pros though?! You mean like phil gaymon?! He looks like a dried prune!
Hold up, you're telling me that people (even pros) are using tires that are too narrow and that a tire that is wider than what we currently consider to be "fast" is actually faster?!?!?! Well I for one am shocked.
Ha ha, so there IS irony in the USA...
Maybe they need you to come on the show... again 😂
🤣😂🤣😂
@@valmorell makes no fukin sense what you wrote there.
@dylanjohnsoncycling soon the pro peloton will be on Thunder Burts
Hi! So, yes, I did take a tumble when ol'mate clipped a pedal in the penultimate corner, just come out of surgery, and a few months of recovery ahead.
I did want to mention a few other participation events with the TDU. AusCyclingSA put on a whole bunch of group rides, ranging in distance from 30km to 90-ish, led by local club members around a variety of routes. They were free, and capped at 30 riders per ride leader (which was the main choke point - we didn't have enough ride leaders to meet the demand.)
Escape Collective did a great article on the death of the mass-participation gran fondo a few months ago, which is worth a read. The biggest problem is obviously cost, primarily insurance, but also permitting. I ,personally, am unwilling to spend $250 to ride around a course I can ride every day with a cheap as chips jersey. That said, the Bupa challenge rides were how I got into cycling, bakc in 2012, so they play an important part in the cycling ecosystem.
I'd love some suggestions on how to run events which are inclusive, but affordable.
Guys! So cool to see that the NERO Approved sticker caught on! LMAO Congrats on the recognition and on another cracking episode, always makes my day! Greetings from Spain
Congratulations on the "Nero-Show Approved" badge! It's a milestone the two of you should celebrate as a marker of just how far this show has come and the level of influence on the cycling community
TOUR MAGAZINE has published an aero study proving that even on a narrow but well-designed rim like the DT Swiss/swiss side 50 (C20/C27), the aero impact of a wide tire was very limited. For example, only 2 watts of loss at 45 kmh 32mm vs 28mm, they tested up to 38mm tires and there was only 6w of loss compared to a 28mm.
Shh. You're ruining the marketers attempts to sell more stuff most people don't need. I mean....I need a new bike and new tyres and new rims to go fast and enjoy cycling
Pretty much shits on the rule of 105 doesn't it. That's it, I'm going 30+ on the next tyre change (on my 24mm wide rims).
For probably 5 years pre covid, I was meeting mates from all around Australia in Adelaide for the TDU. Usually at least a 10 day trip. We would generally not watch the race in person, but do a decent morning ride, and by the time we rolled into town, we could watch the end of the stage on a big screen somewhere, and then roll back to the house.
I love my road racing, but generally have little to no interest in hanging around on the roadside for a race to wizz past. Pro racing is made for TV.
We would never really invest in any of the events either.
The whole trip was a social catch-up between mates. Ride in the morning, arvo beers and dinner, repeat. That's the Tour Down Under for me.
That's my experience with something like the Tour de France too. I love riding in the places where they race, but not when the race is actually there.
As a Swede I would never ever go to Australia to do a gravel event as we have plenty of it here. A gran fondo would attract me way more.
Jessie needs a bike sponsor so he can rock the 34mm tyres
Yeah imagine, say Merida, got him on a, say Reacto.
All of a sudden… Nero show badge on Merida site,.. and Jessie asks us to like the Insta post… tin foil hat on.
The interesting part about the tire tests is that there was not much mention of rim width to tire width aerodynamics. This test could send people in the wrong direction if they have narrow wheels and are trying to put wider tires on. You want the tire width to be seamless with the rim from an aerodynamic perspective. This is why the results were greater at faster speeds. When they show the profile you can see that the 32 is optimized for that rim width. For my particular wheels on my TCR the widest I can run is 28 before you get tire bulge. For Chris this test proves he should be on 32, but for Jesse it would be dependent on his rim width which is probably good for his current max 28 wide tires.
In a theoretical sense or a TT, this is true. But I think the point Jeff’s video was trying to make is in a crit circuit especially when surface is not perfectly smooth, the wider tire is still faster than the narrower aero-optimised tire (probably due to vibration loss being larger than aero loss)
@@BQS1234 Right, but the aero optimized tire in his test was the 32mm tire. When looking at the tire vs rim widths you can see the 32mm matches up the best. I was just speculating based on other studies that this is the main reason why the 32 was the best. If the rim had been narrower, I would be interested to know if there was much of any difference between the 28 and 32 with the 28 performing as good or better and the 32 and 34 performing worse. I imagine this has some to do with why world tour teams don't all run massively wide tires. Depending on the wheels they "have" to run, the optimal tire width may be narrower than if they had a wider wheel available.
Agree - Both internal & external Wheel rim widths have to be factored in👍........and if taking further - Frame / Fork / Seat Tube shapes
THANK YOU, I was scrolling down hoping someone had already said this
Yeah, would also love to see a test on narrower rims
Can we just appreciate Chris' hair. Someone's been to Hambinis hairdresser! Sharp AF. Btw jessie you cant fit a 30mm conti in the tcr rim if you're prepared to dremel a bit off the brake caliper. I did and it fits.
FINALLY! I’ve been scouring the comments for mention of my fresh as fk cut! 😂
I think what’s missing on the tyre discussion, is pressure. Pressure produces different responses with different tyre widths. Increasing/decreasing rolling resistance, and increasing/decreasing comfort etc.
My winspace SLC2 with direct mount rim brakes can fit 30ish tires. Cheaper than going to a disc brake bike.
Presta valve cores are about $1.20 each - I buy them in a bag of 10 and just regularly replace them when i top up sealant - no problem.
I appreciate your show and your opinions but calling to cancel an uci sanctioned race because the actions of a handful of people involved is a bit much.
Thanks a lot for this show guys!! You are amazing. Im always looking forward to the next one when it finishes. Cheers from Portugal
Thanks for watching!
I agree its a shame the TDU Challenge / BUPA ride was not on - Going back 10 years they used to get 6000+ participants - I wonder what changed ? I recall 2018 it was cancelled due to the 40+ temps - maybe people have been scared off by the conditions in January ? Last year I did it and participants were way down around 1500 - which i think still justifies running it as i seem tor recall paying $90 entry fee. Would be interested though in why the numbers have been dropping over the years ? .... and yes I agree - have been seeing lots more ladies out on road bikes - great for the sport !
Always ensure tubeless valve is at the high spot when adjusting air to make sure you get the least amount of valve contamination
Thanks for the show guys!! Always getting me through my long trainer rides!
Only thing missing honestly, is….I wish there was more haha 😂
I’m on those tubeless valves and you can indeed inject sealant through the valve. Not the chunky one of course, but if you’re on Silca, it’s only messy the first time, after that just inject and go.
Crappy thing is with regular core valves, you can stick something in there to check the sealant level. Can’t do that with the fancy ones.
Fair play to Merida for adding the "Nero Badge" Some Top Lads in charge of marketing over there. That's so good.
You guys clearly don't know what homophobia is. E3 has edgy images that cause controversy every single year. It's literally their marketing strategy.
Whether you find it funny, edgy or disgusting is your choice. The fact that you don't find it funny, or even when no one finds it funny, does not make it homophobic.
Also, E3 has stated that not a single complaint was recieved from the LGBT-community. All the 'controversy' is just some winers online who think they have to defend everyone by taking offence in everything.
Also also, in what way is your response of calling the 'stereotypical Belgian cyclocross fan', which you know fuck all about, homophobic acceptable? You're calling out a joke whilst simultaneously doing crazy generalisation. What a hypocrisy.
Virtue signalling social justice woke whiners 🙄
By all means condone it.
By all means deride it.
But please remember it’s only your opinion and some of us were here for cycling tech and not your moral assessment.
Another excellent show lads. Liked the discussion about TDU. Our group didn't go this year but your analysis was interesting. Re the Bupa, we did that in about 2018 but haven't done it since. We don't race it and decided that we didn't need to pay $100 to ride the Adelaide Hills when we could do it for free. Jesse's point about the decline of road racing is well made.
The comfort advantage, and reduced body fatigue with wider tires is impossible to objectively measure, but will be cumulative with longer rides therefore making the wider tires even more advantageous.
I liked your discussion about the fondo.
When you talk about gravel being where things are headed, I think it's only to the extent that things are headed in the direction that is accessible for them, and some of that is the result of what gets organized or what opportunities are presented.
I think the accessibility of gravel (in many places in the world, perhaps not in Australia) holds merit, in that people can be away from cars and ride anywhere without having to deal with traffic and aggressive drivers. But part of the point of some Fondos is to make those big rides on roads safe and accessible for the day of the event. Part of the reason that gravel IS growing in lots of places is that people want to go on a long ride away from cars. A Fondo is something that this provides!
I think the decline of fondos is a shame, especially when more people that ever, I think, are looking for safe opportunities to go on great rides.
The radl gravl did sell out so there would've been more participants. Bring back the TDU GRAND FONDO please 🙏 .
Very disappointed they scrapped it, im new to cycling and doing it last year sparked a fire that helped me train all year for it 😢
I use silca sealant and filmore valves. Both are awesome. When I top off with stage 2 sealant, I send it straight through the valve. No clogging issues what so ever
I don't think it's homophobia, it's inclusive humor. You need to be able to laugh with everything guys... Don't give in to the woke virus :)
One thing from the NorCal video, they were riding by themselves where aero differences would be more pronounced, in a bunch this wouldn’t be as big of an issue, but all so the rolling resistance benefits for the larger tires would be there. So I bet in real life situation where there’s at least some riding in the groupis the wider tires would be even better.
Good point👍🏼
The big thing is gravel is a thing and being pushed because you then surrender the roads again to cars. Which will get governments and local councils to breathe a sigh of relief that they don't have to deal anymore with bike vs car issues.
on my bike with the 32 mm tires sometimes I have to look at the tire because I think it’s going flat because it is so comfortable and almost a little bit squishy but my times are really good on my segments on Strava so I don’t think I’m losing time it’s just a different feel
You are correct with regards to the WVA cartoon in that other mainstream sports would have had more severe response...I just wish you would show the same level of outrage when trans females are allowed to compete with cis women in ANY sport, nut just cycling. Especially when the vast majority of women in those sports are afraid to speak out on their own behalf due to sponsor backlash. It's easy to express outrage on the clearly inappropriate posts, which this certainly was, show some courage.
I think there are caveats around the tyre size in that the wheels used were optimised around a wider tyre with a 34mm outer & 21mm inner width. It would be interesting to see a re-run with similar depth wheels, but a rim width optimises for each width. The Aerocoach wheels are an example of this. Their fastest TT front wheel has been used by a number of world tour teams. It is built around a 23mm tyre. They then offer a slightly slower wheel optimised for a wider tyre. These are primarily TT wheels, so aerodynamics given the speed travelled become more important, but it highlights that tyres should match the rim.
Hmm. That's a good question there. But as far as I understand the latest tests show that benefits of decrease in vibration losses with wider tires greatly outweigh benefits of aerodynamics of the narrower tires. So even if this aerodynamically optimized narrow tire+rim combination will be faster in wind tunnel it will lose more Watts on the road comparing to wider tire+rim combo. Unless you're riding on a velodrome of course🤓
Anyways it gonna be interesting to see where we go 5-10 years from now
@romankarabutin3781 I think that depends on speed (and surface). In a TT there is still a place for the mullet setup - narrow (by modern standards! As 23, 25's & 28's still blow out quite wide) on the front with a wider rear. Aerocoach don't just use aerodynamics in their tyre / wheel data but combined rolling resistance & tyre widths. As you get towards 30mph you are obviously pushing more aero than at 23mph so the ratio of gains in rolling resistance vs aerodynamics isn't linear but an cubic curve as drag increases cubed but RR doesn't. Flo wheels have a chart for gravel riding with the watts distribution between drag & RR from 1mph to 30mph. A 1mph more power is overcoming RR than drag, by 10mph the distribution is even, from that point the watts being used to over come drag mske up an ever increasing percentage of the overall watts required. So I am sure it will be speed specific.
Did tests between 25 and 32 tubeless contis 3 years ago. Roll test down a 2.6k hill Ave 6 .7% gradient. 90 psi 25's 55 psi 32's. Same bike, spokes, hubs. Rims optimized for each tire. 32's consistently 6-12 seconds quicker.
I cannot believe that you call for sanction of a classic race because of a very bad taste. Nobody should be punished for a joke, even if it is very bad. Be a little more relaxed and take it like Ricky Gervais: "Inclusion means that fun is made of everything and everybody."
You can inject sealant through a Fillmore valve. That’s what it’s designed to do.
Yep, thought Chris got this wrong. I fill via the filmore valve with no issue.
Came here to say this. Awesome valves, only downside is the cost.
I have a tcr so i can run 32s but i bought some secons hand carbon wheels with a 19 mm internal and 27 external so ik currently running 25s but I want to try wider but I dont know what to get
I have a tcr as well and my wheels are 20mm internal and 27mm external. I have 28mm conti gp 5000 tubeless on the front and they are perfectly flush and prefect for the tyre so with only a mm difference internally I’m sure you can too. I run a 30mm on the back as it does lightbulb a bit but it’s ok as it won’t make any difference for speed as you’re body is in the way and won’t get so much dirty air around it. But I reckon you can run 28mm front and back if you’re unsure
Yea im goin to try that next@@benhardwick1970
I'm still riding 23s pumped up to 200 PSI - have been for 30 years - used to maybe drop down to 19mm tubs for a race - am I doing it wrong??! 😆
I'm stuck with 19mm tubs. Might even use 18mm if I can find it. Fcuk the aero science. Let my arse hurt! Battle scars!
Jesse needs to get his hands on a VanRysel RCR
I am pretty sure they canned the grand fondo due to rising costs associated with insurance, road blocks, permits ect and lower participation numbers last year.
Another great episode as always boys. Cheers 🍻. As you guys talked about NorCal video and have talked about other channels on the podcast and have talked about wanting to grow the cycling community and get more people involved and watching specially here on UA-cam. Why not have a small segment to show love and support to small channels and new creators like myself or many other that put a lot of work in to making great videos and they do get a lot of positive feedback but it would help them to get more people watching and in to the community. It don’t have to be an every episode thing but maybe every few months if u guys find a small channel that are worth a mention by the support they get and how good their content is. I look forward to Thursdays because I know there will
Be a video from you guys 🙏😂.
I have a really like the filmore valves. You can put the sealant through the valve as long as it doesn't have any "particles" in it.
The Tour de Brisbane is a brilliant Gran Fondo/race, the long race was 110km of fully closed roads in the middle of Brisbane, highways & bus ways, it supposedly had over 6,000 participants last year in the various events.
Why you can’t do the Bupa Gran Fondo & Radl Gravl both blows my mind. We need more events not less. Sure we can grow gravel but not by shrinking the road scene.
No permits vs astronomical costs for permits and closures
I have guys on my Strava who spent the week in Adelaide during the TDU and they were doing 100km+ group rides everday. There were that many rides going on during the TDU. Jesse has lost the plot. Who care about a silly Bupa ride that you have to pay for when there were free grand fondo rides you could do any of the days.
Well said. There were tonnes of numbers out riding, racing and viewing. I think they are overvaluing people's desire for a fondo when there are rides every day for free.
They dropped the ball. The Bupa challenge event is unique inside AUstralia, so few mass participation events exist. Absolutely fumbled.
Was feeling bad that i fitted 32mm 5000STR on my new look optimum, was going ro swap back to a 30 or 28 next year. But after this i feel ao much better, nevwr going back to smaller aized tire. The comfort.and grip is out of the world
Fail for TDU for not having a GF available. Something where all the road fans can participate, throw in timed segments and you can appease everyone.
Chris, I wanted to add a comment on the state of cycling in mainstream media in Melbourne. The Cadel Evans Road Racing series of events was over the Australia Day long weekend. Probably the 2nd biggest cycling event in Australia after the TDU and while there was good TV coverage on 7+, it rates barely a mention in the the papers on Friday and Monday. To be honest there was more on Horse Racing, Cricket, Soccer and AFL (which has not even started as yet). To your point cycling does have an image problem and in Melbourne at the moment I would say a fair amount of that is based around safety and participation in cycling on the roads.
I got a new Vitus TT bike in 2021 and run 25mm on it from day one. I swapped to a 28mm tyre and went tubeless last year and all my times over all the course marginally improved for the same power out put. The one thing I do find weird is it feels slow but it’s not. When I started riding TT’s we used 19mm tubs, so it’s a big change.
My gf got a gravel bike and she has pretty much no interest in riding road anymore. Nicer scenery most of the time, safer (no traffic), slower pace/less stress on performance. Its keeping her interest in cycling though so i guess that’s what matters
it's astounding how little Chris knows about bike gear 😆
The fillmore valves are great! They have a lifetime warranty, they allow enough air through to seat the tires without a tubless pump, if you want to lower your pressure you can unscrew the cap a little & it acts as a release valve! It won't clog with most sealants but it will with the silca stuff(maybe not the top up liquid but I just break the bead anyway)
Only issue w/ Reserve valves; you can’t use a stick to measure how much sealant is present. You have to take the tire off. Presta valve can be removed and the sealant level measured with a small stick (Q tip without the cotton, if the wheels aren’t that deep)
Love the show fellas. I really enjoy tuning into and hearing the different topics you discuss. As someone who is newer to cycling, I do find the doom & gloom of the state of road cycling that you've covered lately to feel a little disappointing.
From an American view point, the crit and group ride scene seems very strong, hopefully you can see it turn around in Australia.
Let's get Warren Rossiter or David Arthur on here. Would be wicked to hear some of the views, ideas and experiences.
Great show as always.
I’ve been using 32mm Conti GP 5000 tubeless paired with Princeton Wake 6560 wheels for three years. Princeton says the Wake 6560 is optimized for 32 mm tires which is why I tried it to begin with, proof they’re faster. I just did a group ride of four guys yesterday. 41 miles distance averaging 21.3 mph. I averaged 202 watts while my buddy averaged 225 watts. We were riding the same bike and we both weigh 183 lbs. He rides the conti 28mm and me the 32. He rides a Tarmac SL7 pro, me the SWorks. He has the latest version of the 6560 wheels with White Industry hubs, I have the three year old 6560 with Industry nines. I’ve been trumpeting this fact for years however most folks are still skeptical.
BTW, my normalized power was 245 watts and I actually did 207 average power, not 202. His NP was 257 watts.
Heaps of guys down here in Melbourne ride gravel. Jesse is once again in his bubble thinking no one rides a gravel bike just because he lives in Sydney.
Agree, I ride mostly gravel in Melb, not hard to find...a gravel bike with road and gravel wheels for best of both worlds.
You guys need to interview the president or treasurer of a few road race clubs that are putting on road events to get a sense of the frustrations we as road racing clubs are suffering ATM.
It’s strange because I run a 28mm continental in a 23mm internal rim and it blows up to 31mm. Guess I inadvertently ended up with the fastest tires
Thank you Jesse for your passion on this subject. Shows real compassion and class.
Which subject? Tubeless?
Death of Fondo - there was a group of about 10 of us who would travel to ADL for TDU from MEL but now, no one goes. The factors are, no peoples ride and the absolute ridiculous cost of domestic travel now…….cheaper to go overseas. Cost is killing Fondos in Australia, flights and/or accommodation, Audax another victim of this in Victorian Alps.
Hey Chris! The Hair, is that a SRAM or Shimano Groom Set!
Okay. I have a triathlon bike. The tires are 25mm. After I put a suspension stem on the handlebars it felt comfortable and fast. Don't know if I was faster. Maybe it is the suspension effect of wide tires.
I only have light gravel roads in my region so i think 34mm gravel tires should be alright. Cyclo cross tires are also not wider. Any thought?
I have converted all my wheels to the Fillmore valves, because of clogging issues I had. You can definitely fill your tires with sealant through the valve.
For crissakes! With all the death and mayhem, Knickers in a twist about a stupid joke.
The Soy is strong still in some areas.
I’d like to see a tubeless setup vs TPU inner tube comparison test especially with wider tires like 34mm. I noticed a difference going to TPU from light weight tubes, more comfortable and almost 100gm lighter per wheel.
I'm scrolling through all the comments, and nobody seems to give a crap about your faux outrage lede story. Gotta love it!! 😂😂
the comments about that are alll at the very bottom, wonder why 😁
@@user-lw7xo6zs6n Maybe if we keep it up, we'll be treated next week to a 5 minute long intro whining about how people in the comment section are so "insensitive." 😛
Hunt figured out the whole external wide rim (35mm) and tire combo with their limitless series wheels back in 2018ish.
Copied by Specialized, Ascent, Reserve etc.
I run 32mm on 48 Limitless “22.5mm” internal (really 23mm) HOOKED and the tire balloons out to 34mm, still close to rule of 105%
Best overall I think would be 23mm internal, 35mm external, with 30mm front and 32mm rear.
The tire to rim transition doesn’t seem to really be of that much importance, what’s important is having it lightbulb just enough for comfort and lower rolling resistance , but still overall transition to a rim wider than the tire.
Chris, you look like George Mcfly with this ridiculous hair cut! 😂😂😂
Which era of George though? 1955, 1985, 1985 cool version, 2015 upside down version. Need to be specific here 😂
With this you save another 5 watt
As usual, Jesse does not know what he is talking about! 😂😂😂
One thing I don't see talked about much is how wider tires = lower PSI = better sealant properties. I'm also tapped out at 28s, and would consider a new bike/frame just to get pressures down to where tubeless actually doesn't suck. great episode (again!).
Love this show, I think GCN used calipers on Pogacar’s tires at the 2023 TDF when they were looking at bikes and they came out to 32/33mm wide (28c on ENVE rims); I could be wrong though. Anywho, awesome show like always.
Bora kit is awesome. Brings back the good days with flashy/ in your face colors and not this new boring pastel plain colors era
I run sram red axs 12 speed with shimano cassette, chain, rotors and 11 speed ultegra chainrings on quarq dub four power meter. All works fine together and the quietest drive train every.
Re: Fillmore valves
It sounds like you haven't actually tried them yet, so let me address your comments (I have these on all my gravel and mtb wheels, as of last season).
1) Yes, you can inject sealant directly through the valve (much easier than with a normal presta). The only exception is Silca sealant (which will plug almost anything).
2) The difference in air flow versus a presta is unbelievable. I never have a problem seating tires anymore.
3) The Fillmore cap does two things. It allows you to micro-adjust the air pressure more finely than is possible with a presta. Second, it serves to secure the valve so there is no accidental air discharge. Screwing down a presta valve achieves the same thing, i.e. tightening the cap of the Fillmore is the same as screwing down the head of a presta, so there is essentially no difference between the two in this regard (a presta cap is simply a dust protector).
4) The Fillmore design eliminates the clogging that occurs inside the valve stem with a presta over time ( I used to have to unscrew my presta cores and periodically remove dried on sealant so the valves would seal properly).
Cheers!
I've been seeing new meridas around in Canberra, including some of the top end guys 😂 NERO CERTIFIED
The whole reason tires are getting 'faster' and 'fatter' is to sell new, cheaper to produce wheels that require lower pressures and different tire sizes to not self destruct or cause problems.
32s on a road bike at 55psi feels amazing.
No,it feels slugish
I tried this and felt super slow. But admittedly never at a high pace. Just off season z2 noodling. As mentioned in the show too, how it feels can often be at odds with how it is actually performing,
Not when you weight is 85 kg )
Its like talking about the improvements in airflow over the mirrors on a Le Mans Porsche at 300km/h. Its unlikely to make any real difference to the rest of us. Generally we would be better off losing some weight and work on race craft and fitness if we want to get to the finish line sooner.
A good thing about wider tires we can all appreciate is they are way comfier than narrow tires at high pressure. Much more grip too I feel.
Just listened here in South Carolina..while setting up tubeless..with Fillmore valves.. I had just tried squeezing Orange Seal through and I pretty much popped the hose off trying to when you said you couldn’t do it. Pedal On‼️
Surprised Jesse has not experienced the blockage with Silica. Give it a few more weeks I suspect since it tried to fill every hole. I am about to try HI FLOW 'No Clog' Tubeless Valves by 76 Projects . Yes you should be able to inject the regular liquid sealants. However this would apply only to the Silica replenisher.
I have been running 34c vittoria corsa pro control on shimano grx wheels on my time adhx this winter, now I will go 32c for summer
The 2 / 3/ 5 Dams Grand Fondo by West Cycle was canceled from this year onwards Western Australia citing insurance costs. However filling its place is a Hills Grand Fondo which has been revived after being knocked out by Covid.
Great content guys. Try and sort out the echoes on the mic’s though
About the Silca sealant, works great when fresh but after 180 days is like glue inside , open your tires if Don’t believe me. Gilmore valves were designed and developed by Reserve( Santa Cruz) . Chris explanation of the Filmore valve is very limited , there is a core and works the same way but is not removable
Hey Jesse, do you think part of inclusion is being open to being mocked? If you are just joining a club and people starting taking the piss with some playful banter its part of the process of inclusion. Your take on this comic was pretty unhinged in my opinion, scrap the race? haha ridiculous. With these new modern politics its exclusion if you don't acknowledge a group and it's unacceptable if you start folding them in with some light hearted banter?
The wout poster is funny. Nothing was hateful about it. ITS A JOKE
Yes. I thought it was hilarious. The marker for things becoming accepted is their ability to sustain being laughed at or made fun of. Laughing at yourself is a sign of self-awareness and humility.
Definitely re SRAM with shimano discs - I run dura ace discs on my SRAM red. And valve “clot” definitely has been an issue for me. Helps to store valves “upward” as in not valve down. It at least makes some sense.
A two part sealant makes so much sense to me since its presumably just the portion of the sealant that evaporates or whatever that needs topped up. Ill try tubeless eventually
Who knew Jessi was this woke. I guess the vegan thing is a strong indicator
That joke wasn’t that bad lmao
I'd hate to know how much slower my 25s are 😰 Oh well, my bike will be eligible for historic club reg this year so that's a positive
Love the show as always guys. Let's not get too precious about a joke though, can't watch anything without outrage and cancel culture creeping in. This joke would get told by so many people in real life. It may not be to everyone's taste but we shouldn't take everything so seriously
I just got a new bike, Scott Addict SE mounted in 32mm and the change with my previous 23mm is massive.
Love the show! saving this one for later! ✌
My 1st gen S5 2012-2015 model only takes 23mm, yet the World still turns,the Sun still rises in the morning.
And it's still fast AF
I dont see the joke neither but calling this homophobic… guys c’mon
How is it not homophonic
These 2 ausies are so woke it makes me cringe
I recently put 28´s and 30´s with the 303Firequest on my Endurance bike, and it's really comfortable. But it takes time getting used to it, that it feels "slow". Acceleration fells a bit sluggish.
I don't understand gravel. There is basically zero chance of you winning in the larger races. I can see if you are in top 20 how it might be worth training for a 200 mile race but without really segmented groups or team standings, the competition just isn't the same as road. At least in road if you puncture, your race isn't over because the mechanics can being you back to the group. If I want to ride with my friends I can do that for free anytime I want and I won't be paying $200 just to ride a course that somebody made. Omg you get to ride with retired pros though?! You mean like phil gaymon?! He looks like a dried prune!