@@seriousguy9509 My favorite is 3, though it’s difficult for me to speak without extreme bias on that game because it’s the one I’m most nostalgic for. V is the best, unironically.
@@Tetramorre what's your opinion on MGS4? I'm split of whether or not Kojima made that one out of spite or enthusiasm. It answers all the most interesting questions with the least complicated answers. And the retcons....and Ugh...Johnny.
@@JudgeSpektre MGS4 feels like a similar case to MGS2 to me except with a less cynical outcome. Kojima sort of gave the fans what they wanted with that one, perhaps with a passing “if this game sucks don’t blame me” but he was also sure to include his own anti-fandom intent in there, like making Snake old just as an example. And then there’s stuff like the return to shadow moses and the RAY v REX battle which feel like pure fanservice with no strings attached. It’s definitely a complicated game to talk about and I think Kojima was probably really conflicted with that one, between his desire to screw over his fans and his desire to send the series off on a high note. Kojima is a very conflicted man and it comes through in his games.
For me, MGS2's lies were more about tone than being literal. The feeling of your brain skipping was what I loved most, everyone is lying and being lied to. Not quite knowing knowing what is going on is what kept me engaged the most. When I finished the game and things didn't quite add up it launched me into all of the other games so I could figure it out.
Snake going after Ray is like a dog going after a car. -You're not going to catch it, it's a lot faster than you. -What are you going to do if you do catch it???
Perhaps, but he was probably thinking ahead and equipped an experimental shark whistle to attract enough of them to slow Rey down. After that, water-CQC .
@johnnybensonitis7853 too few likes for this comment. Holy shit, as ridiculous as it sounds, I wouldn't be surprised if, in some alternate version, that very thing happened, lol.
He really does such a great job that it makes his videos highly rewatchable. I'm definitely having another watch of his MGS V one. I finished that game last month and somehow it gave me an unquenchable thirst for everything MGS related. If you're into V in particular I'd also highly recommend another 2+ hour long vid on a channel called Keiv Reviews Things.
You know, I had a dream last night about Metal Gear Solid V (or some version of it) and you were narrating it. It may have come off as a fever dream at a time, but I see now that it was a sign.
Your channel is seriously amazing and you deserve wayyyy more attention than you have. I found you through your MGSV and Control videos and they just keep getting better. Keep up the great work man! Also I totally feel you on the analytics bit 😂
This video is yours is basically the elaboration of Luke Stephen's "Kojima problem" during his Last Stranding video regarding Kojima, his cult of personality and criticism immunity which revolves around said cultish tendency which goes even right into production process of his games, there's so many interesting takes that it would flip many "Video Essays" of MGS2 by asking simple questions of the game's quality itself Nonetheless MGS2 has many attention to details of it's environment interactivity which is pretty advanced for a PS2 game in 2001, it's the prototype of Cinematic-centric games which prevalent in 7th Gen onwards to most of Playstation 3 and 4 Western exclusives among the "normies" (basically the fans of Blockbuster AAA cinematic games that barely consider Indie and AA games' merits), so that's accountable for it's technical and social achievements on subsequent Playstation games
A lot of the articles and videos on MGS 2 say a lot of the same things, too. I'm surprised there's not a video titled something like, 'Is Kojima a God? THIS fact will prove it!' Have arrows and shit in the thumbnail pointing around and shit.
The problem with the plot is that it doesn't make sense, even considering its meta narrative aspects. Max Payne had a meta-narrative and it still managed to not just make sense, but make sense in the context of its film-noir comic book aesthetic.
The reason Emma does the key card thing is bc Meryl does something similar in 1, it’s one of the tons and tons of small details that add to the simulation for Raiden.
Thought id look into your other works, then i saw this, got excited, made a pot noodle, then i heard the first few seconds.......... oh boy, haven't watched more than that yet but i have to give you credit for the massive brass ones you must have, my hat off to you. Now i shall watch and see where it goes lol
I think, unironically, the best part of MGS2 is the part where you have to snipe the semtex controllers. if you play through the game on each difficultly level in ascending order more and more control modules are added and it is genuinely challenging and surprising. I really like this, and the addition of extra C4 blocks you have to find once you enter hard mode and I really wish there was more mix ups like it.
I don't think you convinced me about anything but you reminded me of the way I thought about this game before the internet discussions hijacked my brain. I enjoyed MGS2, thought it had interesting ideas, but thought it didn't manage to keep itself together and collapsed under the weight of things it tried to do... Resulting in a noble and entertaining failure, as far as narrative goes. Gameplay-wise, I thought it was excellent regardless. But, as stated in a work of fiction I quite enjoy, even a poorly made gesture can work, even clumsily chosen words can move you.
As a kid who used to play MGS2 and loved playing this game, this video had truly made me take a huge step back and realize how much of a great point you provide in this video, and while I still am a big fan of this game and sorta disagreed at some points, I still think that you truly made a great point in this video, hope you have a good day or night
Honestly, as somebody who has thought Kojima is an overrated developer, I never knew that his disdain for his own fans was so strong. If you take that quote at 56:16, replace “character” with “movie,” and “Metal Gear” with “Star Wars,” and make it in reference to The Last Jedi, NOBODY would have supported it. It’s crazy the contrast between FromSoftware’s philosophy of using games to teach the player how to overcome challenges and Kojima’s of “gamers are stupid and basically murderers.” Also, top tier video. I respect you for getting through that book for the sake of this video, because I would’ve stopped reading once I saw the cover. I’d also like to mention that “developer intentions” can hold a lot of weight when considering game mechanics, and it’s especially great for game series that improve to meet that vision over time; I.e., the Witcher games slowly becoming open world as CDPR works through their technical and budgetary limitations.
Your comparison doesn't really work, Rian Johnson was allowed to work with the Star Wars franchise, but it wasn't HIS. The story might be different if George Lucas remained at the helm and did his story of the 'whylls' trilogy, but he didn't.
That part at 1:12:00 where the real good ending was to not play is one of the things that I most dislike in media ever. It actively made my enjoyment of a game like spec ops be extremely dampened, specially when it didn't give you choices to not commit warcrimes and then has the gall to call you bad for attempting to play a highly linear game like that.
Man, great video! There's a few points I disagree with personally (namely the tranq gun status as BiS being a bad thing and the current state of "fact checking" on social media) but overall, quite a few hot takes here! Looking forward for more of your stuff Edit: One thing I want to add on the whole "critiquing the players who blindly follow what the game tells them" subject since we discussed it on discord briefly if you do that in a purely linear game with no player choice it's the equivalent of releasing a book that criticizes the reader for reading the words on it. You can't do that because it loses its impact when the player/reader realizes "But wait I, quite literally, didn't have a choice you forced me to do these things to get the message". At best it's hypocritical and at worse it's... void? Null? Worthless? Edit 2 (I need to stop posting comments before finishing the video): The external gazer stuff looks like a poorly executed Soma. You should play that game if you haven't by the way, I think you'd really like it
About the "critiquing the players who blindly follow what the game tells them" subject, isn't that just Kojima being Kojima? Like I get the criticism about it, but at one point his games stopped being about the game and more about the experience kinda. It might not apply to MGS2 though since it's so early on, but it's interesting to think about. This game might be the beginnings of that. (also I have no experience with Kojima games except for having heard people talk about them so take this with a tablespoon of salt lol)
_criticizes the reader for reading the words on it._ So Don Quixote, one of the most important and influential literature of all time? No. Get fucked. Some people plant themselves in front of their monitors and soak media without thinking at all about what they've had dumped into them, and these people are toxic for society. This argument gets polluted by spec ops the line, which does this incorrectly, because it treats the act of murder in a game as equivalent to murder in real life. Even if at a certain point, I stopped killing basically anyone in MGS, because I needed the challenge, and it felt "right" to me, I don't pretend that people who are shooting real bullets are playing the game wrong, and neither does the game. Maybe 4, but its more complicated there.
@@shoopoop21 "criticizes the reader for reading the words on it. So Don Quixote, one of the most important and influential literature of all time? " If you think that's what Don Quixote was doing, you either need to read it again or you need to stop reading alltogether.
Another incredible video! Thank you for the detailed, fair, careful analysis! (I couldnt even get through the game…. I just felt like the game was carelessly wasting my time and interest in the series). Like, absolutely nothing in the game touched or interested me (other than a bit of Solidus’ character). You recapped and commented on the game in a really effective way. Not just plot. Not just hot takes. Awesome work, again! :)
The counters were a neat idea and this is just a minor nitpick but they can be kinda hard to keep track of when there's a lot of ticks in rapid succession. For a complete outsider to the MGS series like I am, it can be hard to know which piece of information in a sentence the ticks are referring to. Also, another nitpick, there's a lot of "add-on" text. I get that it's not very tempting to set back up the recording equipment just for a little foot-note or some extra info, hell I'm guilty of that same thing, but it helps with the overall feel of the content not to have to pause the video to read a couple of lines of text every now and then. Everything else was great! Your VO audio quality really is top-notch. Tell me, how hard was it to not include the "I can break these cuffs" clip during that one scene lol Also much love for using Ratchet and Clank 1 music
Ah, but isn’t the fact that you can’t tell what the ticks are exactly referring to not putting you in the shoes of someone who has no idea what exactly is going on? Lol I kid Mostly Edit: Perhaps I need to reconsider my mantra about the text blurbs. A few years ago they were more in vogue but I’m realizing I don’t see them much any more lol
44:12 Solidus is using a P90 firing FN 5.7x28 caliber cartridges. This is a round that was designed to penetrate armor. Solidus firing that tiny caliber penetrator point-blank would mean maximum muzzle velocity that consequentially can easily punch through armor with so many hits in such a tiny area of a couple inches apart at max.
I hear what you’re saying, and that’s a valid point. And yet it takes four stinger missiles to the open chassis to knock it out in the following boss battle (assuming you stun it in the knees first otherwise it takes five or sixish) and that doesn’t even completely destroy it because the RAYs just walk away once their HP is drained. Even if it does make internal sense, it still is a problem because it takes away from the impact of the boss battle in the same way Cloud chopping through three Darksides with one hit for each does in Kingdom Hearts 2. “Cutscene Power to the Max” is the problem here, even barring internal logic.
I need dollars Raiden, $50! Pretty good video, I like it. I like how you structure these videos by criticizing the objective context of the game and how it is told while also giving your own opinions based on the games content. You’d think lots of people would do this but I don’t see it that often.
Really enjoyed the video. I watched it a couple days ago and after digesting the message (well, I hope, it's been a couple days so I could be off the mark now), these are my thoughts: First of all, Snake diving after RAY is badass, so you're wrong. Lol nah but seriously, you have valid points ofc regarding the mess that is the literal narrative. It's like a weird fever dream that tries to redefine Metal Gear. So, I think It's fair to criticize Kojima's failed intent with this game, but I also think it's fair to remove Kojima entirely when evaluating the game. If he intends that we stop playing to truly 'win', well that's not a real choice. But I as a consumer of art can reject his intent and derive my own meaning from the game. I don't think it's fair to tear down the art when it's the artist that failed. The art still is what it is and has its merits. I can choose the author be dead and ignore them and their reasons for the game if that's the way I came to enjoy the game. I feel this video is directed more at Kojima than the game itself. Maybe you already intend it that way and I and everybody else are just thrown off by the title hahaha. Probably, since the substance of your message is discussion over the metanarrative. Anyway, since I said the artist failed and not the art, what does art failing look like? That's probably something like External Gazer. Where the artist's intent seeps past the metanarrative and into the literal. I interpret the game as: you play the whole game wanting to know what the hell is going on, and at the end are told that they are aware of your curiosity and contextualize the last 10 hours by saying they were just herding you along and pulling you by your curiosity leash because they could, because it was easy. The writer punishes you for reading their work. But you were doing it because its a game and you were just playing to finish it. So Snake says you should just believe in something for yourself. You can believe the last 10 hours means what it means to you, not what it meant to the AIs. (Is it good? I dunno. Enjoying something doesn't make it good, but enjoyment itself is good, and I enjoyed those 10 hours.) I was curious coming to this video off of Pat's MG Survive video. I feel I understand why you felt Survive was better than Sons of Liberty and I actually think its a fair opinion. Art is subjective and we all look at and value different things. It's rare when 'hot take' opinions are explained as thoroughly as you've done here, so for that I thank you for the effort because it did come across to me and I can see your perspective.
This is an excellent comment, and I'm glad you enjoyed the video. You pretty much hit the nail on the head, and your interpretation of the narrative is solid, even if it's not how I feel about it.
Came from Pat's channel. Great video, I'm a fan of Raiden but I agree mgs2 is not that great. I especially love the external gazer bit. Keep on making these videos. I came here thinking I'd hear some fanboy bs, but you've been logical and chill.
31:48 I'm pretty sure this was meant to be a call back to MG1 where meryl crosses the mine field for snake, she even asks him the same question afterwards "Are you impressed?"
10:07 Yo its me, that fightin freak KNUCKLES. YOU REALLY DIDN'T THINK I'D RECOGNIZE THAT IN A HEART BEAT?!?!? i aint gone let it get to me chillin on pumpkin hill. Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Personally, the story not making perfect sense doesn’t bother me due to what it has to say. I greatly value the expression > a perfectly tight story, but if it does bother you that is valid. Every character being confused and information being all over the place is exactly the point of the game, having the actual narrative be confusing and not make perfect sense causes the audience to feel the same way the character does in this world of lies and half truths.
A) Great video! And I have to say - having watched your videos in chronological order after having discovered your channel - the rate your delivery improved between videos is astounding B) I mostly agree with your analysis and criticisms of the metanarrative (particularly the implied criticism that the primary/literal narrative shouldn't suffer in order to deliver a metanarrative); however, I feel there is another metanarrative criticizing the player that I've never seen analyzed or even mentioned outside of possible praise of "ludonarrative harmony"(ugh). That being that due to all of the extraneous and contradictory information provided throughout the game, players will inevitably either cherry-pick bits and pieces to support their own hypotheses, or in an attempt to integrate everything into an internally consistent narrative reach for a schizophrenic/nihilistic explanation (ala "it was all VR!!!" BS.) Raiden still acts as a player surrogate initially; with the undermining of Raiden's world/relationships (and/or regaining a "forgotten" "identity") mirroring how increasingly disconnected the player must become from the literal narrative in an attempt to make sense of it. Raiden throwing away his dogtags - the only information we definitively knew that didn't come from an unreliable narrator - symbolizing how easily we can reject truth if it doesn't align with most of the other information. All of which reflecting the themes of disinformation and information control. C) While I do believe the above is an equally valid metanarrative as the player control one, I in no way think that its possible presence (or even their simultaneous presence) vindicates or even improves MGS2. tbh I feel like Kojima employed the same narrative trick YIIK did decades later (ie shove as many possible themes as you can while obfuscating as much as possible with increasingly contradictory information/narrative beats in an attempt to support them all). imo the only reason one is hailed as a masterpiece and the other is derided is the developer goodwill that comes with making a fun series D) I wonder if you hold Harlequin novels in the same regard as dating sims, because both are equally guilty of the same excesses
Came from the Metal Gear Survive video you collaborated on, and when I heard "MG Survive is better than MGS2" I was surprised. This video was incredibly well made and it offered a new perspective that I would've never even considered. Keep up the great work!
I never realized that about Kojima having such disdain for his own American fans back then, holy shit. It makes so much more sense in retrospect. I haven't played through this game in many years since it first came out, so I've kinda taken all the videos praising it at their word. I LOVED MGS 3 and it actually renewed my interest in the series despite the original release sticking to the old top-down perspective. I'm currently playing through The Phantom Pain and it's the most fun I've ever had with a Metal Gear game, and I look forward to moving on to your video on it when I finish. Great video, you make some really great stuff!
It is a pretty good video and you do raise tons of valid criticism at the game. I myself played it just a bit before V was release, so you can say I never was part of the Kojima cult. To begin with I was already aware of his animosity when he created 2, though your video drove the point even further. I and did know about the twist to begin with and a lot of what people were already saying about the game, both good and negative. Does Kojima intent matter? As you said, not necessarily. Of course, if he wasn't sperging out he probably could have easily made a better game, both mechanically and story-wise, and he should certainly be criticized over that. Point is though, I did have fun with it regardless. And a lot of fun and even some feels, despite some of the certainly questionable writing. Though as people have been pointing out for a long time, can we even attribute all of the writing, or even most of it, especially the good parts, but rightfully so the bad parts too, just to Kojima? Because there certainly seems like were some other important developers contributing to both story and gameplay. So even when I was already heavily spoilered, but maybe still not understanding everything, because I didn't experience it for myself yet, I ended up enjoying it a lot. I will never call it a perfect game, nor even a flawed masterpiece, but it is truth that in many ways I am not sure if I have enjoyed a game ever as much since I played MGS2 or even before that. That's a very questionable statement, because I am not sure if it is truly the truth, even if I am speaking about myself. To me even if I do call it "favourite", believe me, it doesn't mean much. I am not trying to sound edgy and snowflaky, but I am one of these people that just can't quite ever commit to something in certain media being "favourite", probably simply because I don't get to feel that overwhelmingly strong about things. Not saying I am an emotionless bot, though, far from it. Maybe that's pointless blabber trying to justify saying I enjoyed MGS2 possible more than any other game, but it feels important to me to explain that this for me would not mean the same fireworks it might mean for some other people. And yes, the gameplay is flawed, probably more than I realized at the time of playing it. Story has tons of questionable elements. All of that could have been better, I don't argue that. Point here is I had fun, and a lot of it. Many people seem to have. And on some level that surely matters, right? And I am not saying that as an argument of "that means it is a good game", but because you say if the story of the game was a VR, then it is even more pointless than it already was by simple being heavily flawed. While a bad story ending can certainly ruin an otherwise good story and maybe even the after taste of good gameplay (talking in general here), in this case I don't feel it is like this. Probably the biggest reason for that is that to even get to the meta conclusions, well, you probably have to go outside of the game. Either spend a lot of time yourself thinking about it or like most of us actually in a lot of discussions with others. So, if anything you are interacting with people and stimulating your brain even after you have ended the game. As sometimes people say about a good story, you can intrepid it many ways, perhaps most importantly, in ways that are important/helpful to you. Despite Kojima's intentions, what many people saw in the lessons about information control, memes and the human psyche are still worth it. One way or another the game made us think, interact with each other and it keeps doing this today. Related to this sentiment... Again, you say if the game is a VR simulation it is then worthless, but that just seems weird to me and not really well justified, basically mostly just stating that it is worthless, cause that's what you think. Especially as you have established in the video, we can just ignore Kojima spering out and have fun despite him. Or in fact, though that would be a harder to prove point, Kojima might have had his intent, but it doesn't mean it wasn't clashing with the intent of other people that were making the game, which might be the reason the game is not even more of a mess than it already is in many aspects. So, Kojima's intent is certainly important, maybe the most important. But even if it is like 60% or 70% of the game, there still might be a lot of intent going against him. I don't know, maybe I am just a dumbass and despite listening to your arguments more than once, I just can't agree with you saying it would make the game worthless and I think you case for it is very... not even sure what to say. Perhaps, but also very likely not, maybe just emotionally driver argument? Cause it makes you mad that Kojima did what he did. Except I am not sure you actually feel that passionate about it, just wanted to have a big point to argue with others, which in a way it is the MGS2 we made along the way... (a joke and in a way my point too). It is 50 dollars, so Kojima's intent is bad and the game is therefore bad, but that seems a bit too reductive towards the whole of what the game has to offer, even if it is that is far, far from perfect or whatever. A fiction within a fiction doesn't make it worthless. Even if all withing the game was fictional, we can still relate to characters and learn lessons. That's what fiction does to begin with. But then we maybe just get some extra lessons or at least possible thought provoking on the top of that. As an extra, that also ignores Kojima himself and other stuff too. I have to excuse myself again for having played the games only once, 6 years ago and haven't been in an actual MGS discussion in a long while. Wasn't MGS1 already canonically a VR that Raiden did to become a good soldier (his childhood aside). Or at the very least there is a MGS1 VR and we can't know for sure if MGS1 we played was the VR or the complete reality (especially without the context from the rest of the games, but maybe even despite them?). I don't remember a good reason why we can't say that this is the actual first S3, other than the game claiming MGS2 was, but then it obviously reveals that MGS2 is a different type of S3, but does that really mean the first S3 doesn't exist and it is not actually MGS1? (After my third rewatch seems like you agree MGS1 is canonically a VR, so I guess I was not misremembering that at least?) And so, what if MGS2 is the VR that not Raiden (who already experienced maybe the real events of it, or just another simulation of it, doesn't matter too much, at least to me making this argument and not arguing about that), but the VR that the player played through? In fact, we can say that the VR would exactly want to trick us into thinking it is not one, or at the very least get us into a false sense of security and that we grew like Raiden did and we will free ourselves like Raiden did. Now we know about information control and what not and we will be free, except not really. We are just making a fist feeling good for ourselves and that's where it actually ends for us. This would also mean that Raiden doesn't have to be the ordinary man, because we are the ordinary man tricking ourselves, we are just like the hero of the story. Or at the very least Raiden as a person is as railroaded as arguably, we are in many aspects. A possible point of relatability with him. If the rest of the games didn't exist as intent at least by Kojima, though as I said how much his personal intentions and opinions mattered is likely highly exaggerated (as reality would prove with the next games existing), then if the rest of the MGS storyline didn't exist, maybe Raiden didn't exist either, and he is just there to be what tricks the player to think he is not the subject of S3 himself and that Raiden is. In a way, Raiden is our Snake. Not the Snake, the pretend soldier hero, but Raiden, the pretend freeman that we might end up thinking to be. Though it might be argued that if we hate him and we think he is a dummy and what not, and that we are not a dummy like him, that could also be one intent by the system possible interactions with the player ending in his false sense of achievement. The system here being the system that GW represent and goes beyond the intentions of Kojima or the rest of the team and interacts with us as how we choose to let it interact with us and see the world. And again, just because I might be saying that MGS2 was "powerful" enough (maybe I would prefer to say "interactive enough") to make us think in such ways (and hopefully enjoy the gameplay too, not just the story analyzes meanings, though the gameplay, the fact it is a game by itself is very important too), doesn't necessarily make it a meme masterpiece or flawed masterpiece of whatever. Just an interesting, highly interactive type of media, and by itself is at the very least worth something for sure, even to people that might hate it (which I am not saying you do) or at least enjoy criticizing it heavily, which is not inherently just negative in content, nor nature.
Continue... I think for the first time I hit a post too long error on youtube. This is actually the part of my post that I am adding the last, as I almost forgot about it. Quitting the game. If we add this idea to it all too, what happens? Why to begin with must we accept it so "direct"? Quitting what game? Whose game? If the lesson here is to oppose some sort of oppressive system or status quo or human nature or whatever, wouldn't that be the game to quit? To disturb the system, to redefine the rules of the game. Arguable, like Kojima wanted to set himself free, but he didn't manage to. Except maybe he did, just not in a way he might realize at face value? Who knows, or maybe we can know or at least speculate, but I am not all about that right now. It does remind me of the story of Welcome to the NHK. A story about a person with severe social phobias and had closed off himself from society, but was now trying to set himself free, but then the ending is very questionably likely not a happy one. And then the reality is for years after the success of the novel (and then the manga and anime), the original writer himself got even more reclusive himself. This used to be a big discussion point among fans and still is. Except extra years later he actually did manage to go out in the world, stumbled a bit for a while, but seems like he is at a very good spot right now, something most of his fans don't seem to know. Of course all of that is just me having fun thinking about the story and maybe it doesn't amount to anything else and it is super-duper wrong, cause "intent", but I had some sort of fun thinking and writing this, so I got even more value of MGS2 right now. There was also something to be said about how many people might have played the game for free to begin with, considering how old it is and stuff. Wink wink. Or at least experience it for free, you know, through people's videos. Like I did before eventually play it myself. Though I don't even remember anymore did I really see videos of it before playing, or just some discussions (which is similar, but different) and maybe just a video of GW's final reveals. Hope I actually provided some food for thought. And hopefully I was able to get my ideas across and it wasn't all just too badly structured and written, a bit ironic if so, huh? Oh and, it is not to excuse any clunky and bad writing, but MGS is in general goofy in many ways. And perhaps it can be goofy and make more cohesive sense at parts, but perhaps, maybe, how did Ocelot jump into the Metal Gear just doesn't matter, because it is fun goofy at least. And in current year I think we certainly have realized things can be both goofy and have serious messages. Of course, some might not find it as a fun goofy thing and just an annoyance, but maybe, just maybe, but not necessarily, we are falling at the trap of overthinking and over analyzing everything, which is part of the fun, though maybe it can also be part of what starts robing us of fun at some point, while we continue striving for some final objectivity on the matter? And if Kojima hated people not thinking deeply enough about the story, themes, characters, ect, we certainly are now, and MGS2 played an important role in that. Maybe the game was intentionally thought provoking? Of course, that might be giving Kojima especially too much credit. Spoiler alert, I have been left with the impression he is a bit of a hack and long before this video and even before playing games. But these games are more than just him, or even the rest of the team in some ways. Also, for example I don't mention the uninspired design of the game world (map), cause not much to add there. And yes, I know you seem to probably still like the game, maybe not as much as other games in the series, but still. I don't definitely don't think you are hating on it, but I do think you might have gotten a bit too caught up in arguing. I know I have done and still do a lot of that myself and think many of us do. Which has both its merits, especially entertainment, but as stated, maybe also diminishing returns.
I agree entirely about the tranq gun. Its so over powered that you could argue that it comes close to ruining the entire series. I wish the devs had taken mgs2 as a lesson in the importance weapon balance, but they didn't and the problem only becomes worse as the series goes on. There are so many things they could have done to balance it. They could have removed the silencer. They could have made it so guards will trigger caution upon waking. They could have limited ammo drops. But they made it even stronger in every subsequent release. Its completely antithetical to themes the story is trying to explore about desensitization to violence and war.
Glad I subbed earlier on, when you said that MGS2 is probably the worst one, you just bought yourself a long-time viewer. Now onto the rest of the video.
My friend Jason and I repeatedly played the demo for MGS2 on the Zone of the Enders disc and actually became huge fans of the series in the process. When the game finally came out we both got it day one and I imagine I beat both campaigns in one sitting. For the next six months or so I would go over to his house and we would just play through it beginning to end multiple times over the course of a weekend to see who could beat it faster or accomplish some other challenge. I continued playing it on my own for years afterward until European Extreme became mostly muscle memory. I must have done hundreds of playthroughs, at least of Snake’s chapter. That being said, I barely understood the story as a kid and I still don’t quite understand it as an adult. And I’m not the type of person to skip cutscenes either. I’ve always acknowledged this game’s many flaws, but I still consider it my favorite in the series and I go back and forth on whether this or Snake Eater was the peak of the franchise. I love the deeper mechanics in Snake Eater, but I don’t think this kind of gameplay lends itself well to a jungle. It’s still great, but the setting of MGS 1 and 2 are perfect.
I don't respect Media of any sort that deliberately wastes my time. Even less so if I'm paying for the privilege. I didn't pay for a ticket to the Last Jedi to then have the series shat upon. Subversion of expectations is no guarantee of anything being good. If I have an expectation of going to the gas station and along the way I get kicked in the nuts that was a subversion. Certainly would not consider that a good one. One thing I laughed at in mgs4 was the VR angle was dropped by kojima. His grand middle finger was retracted..to an extent. I fondly think of mgs4 as "Retcon theater". Even made a drinking game. Take a shot every time he pulls a retcon/ contrivance / or deliberately underwhelming answer to a popular question. Just make sure you don't have work in the morning.
Came back to rewatch this & noticed for some reason I didn't like it earlier so I fixed that. I've been having issues trying to find a specific video going over the issues with the HD edition (not master) from its first port to xbox original & remembered this. Couldn't find either of them & had to find your video through Patrician's link on his old MGS vid.
It's pretty funny to me that I played MGS2 when it was rereleased on Vita, and I was still disappointed by playing Raiden. I got to finally play a metal gear game, and I don't get to play that guy from Smash Bros anymore?
I really hate when games try to make you feel bad for playing them, unless it's a bait and switch for the message like Totono, where the goal is to fight against that and derive meaning from the experience. I've also seen people bring up Spec Ops: The Line as an example of a game which tries to guilt you for playing it. I disagree. I tend to view Spec Ops more as a indictment of the industry surrounding the Modern Military Shooter and their approach to storytelling. It doesn't guilt you, it guilts Walker, who's madness is conveyed by the paint by numbers gameplay.
As a person that played and enjoyed a lot of dating sims/visual novels, I am deeply disturbed by the way you see it. I'm not mad, I just started wondering if there is something wrong with me.
@@Tetramorre You know, I thought about it and there is something wrong with me. Not because I play them. That wrongness simply resulted in loneliness. They are just the only option for me to feel something like that. And you shouldn't judge a starving man for stealing a loaf of bread.
You're my new favourite video essay youtuber, your production quality is amazing. Now the next goal is to up those video length numbers, you gotta beat Patrician's 12 hours for sure!
I mean, that doesn’t change the fact they didn’t try to shoot, and that’s presuming he had the item on him at the time which he may not have since I (don’t think) there’s any evidence of such. This may have actually made the reveal at the end pretty cool but nah
You got some good points there, but my biggest issue is questioning logic of a game that doesn't even try to be realistic. I don't mean elves, magic and unicorns, but rather telepathy, telekinesis, unnatural powers and so on. If we were to question everything that's unreal, we should start with gameplay mechanics, such as surviving explosions and healing them with food etc. That's where we'd come to conclusion that if games were 100% realistic and logical, the would no longer be fun.
I only looked at the game’s literal interpretation to prove a point later in the video. Besides, every game, book, movie, regardless of their amount of fantasy present, has internal consistency it must adhere to. We accept that Superman can fly and shoot lasers out of his eyes, but if he suddenly started controlling people’s minds we’d have an issue, because the story is suddenly ignoring its own internal consistency. MGS2 has a good reason to break internal consistency, as I continue on to talk about after the initial parts of the video. I constructed that section to explain why we must look beyond the literal interpretation of the narrative.
On the "the only choice the player has is to turn the game off" point; Metal Gear Rising Revengeance turns this on its head, because its meta narrative is "it's a video game, why should you care about the ethics of slicing dudes in half? Just have fun with it" - just like Raiden does when he lets Jack the Ripper come out before the fight with Monsoon Which is the direct opposite to MGS2's "stop playing or AI will enslave the world!!!11!!111!!!!!!!" meta narrative (which is very similar to Spec Ops: The Line, but that game gets sucked off for its "you coulda just turned the game off, you didn't have to use white phosphorous" meta commentary) Also that "every time you kill an enemy in the VR missions, you're killing someone FOR REAL!" shit is some "video games cause violence" bullshit
Solidus freed Raiden because solidus' plan was to return freedom to america, so i think he did that so atleast raiden would not have his fate put in grasp of someone else
I really despise Snake's speech at the end. I disagree with it entirely. Also, I thought Codec Rose was always GW, while the real Rose only appears at the end.
@@Tetramorre wow, didn't expect the answer from the creator, thanks a bunch! looks like the video itself is blocked in my country though. real bad, i like your analysis of this game. thank you again Tetramorre!
That’s a bummer, it’s a copyright issue. That was back when I put all kinds of copyrighted music in my videos cause I didn’t care lol, if you have a discord I could probably try and send you a copy. Or maybe you could use a video downloading program to pull it off youtube
I would have never believed that PatricianTV's Metal Gear Survive video review would lead me here, but goddamn, am I glad it did. Honestly, I was truly lured here by the hottest gaming take of the century, but holy shit, this is a good video. It's going to make me think about it for a little while, at least. Some thoughts: * I genuinely thought that the game that you would bring up at the 1:12:39 mark would have been Spec Ops: The Line. Not saying DDLC wasn't a bad example, but it did surprise me, to say the least. I'm not sure if you are aware of the former game, but it _kinda_ has that whole “Don’t win, stop playing right NOW, it’s objectively the best choice” message, but the context for it is different. It pretty much beats the player to death with it, but I wouldn’t know, I just watch a lot of footage about the game and not play it (lol). Also, unrelated note, I couldn’t help but think of that one quote from WarGames during that segment: _"The only winning move is not to play."_ * Wow. I would have NEVER guessed that Kojima had such contempt for his American fans back then. I wouldn’t be surprised if he still holds that today, but I wouldn’t know, and I don’t care. I mean, I still like the guy’s work, it’s not too far off to say that he is one of my inspirations when it comes to my own stories, but still. Good to know, I guess. * On the off chance that MGS 2 was truly the grand finale of the whole series...I’m not sure if that’s something I can fully grasp, at least for right now. All I can say is, that would be one way to leave your mark on the world. Not a period, not an exclamation point, but a bold and firm question mark. On a related note, that whole “VR Theory” thing actually has merit. I like it. That's about it, really. I'm gonna stick around and watch your four hour video on MGS V now :)
Spec Ops probably would have also fit but I haven’t played it personally, and I’ve seen lots of dissenting opinions recently on whether or not that game actually accomplishes its goals well. Plus I like the contrast of using a cutesy visual novel to explain how a super important war game fails at commentary lol Thanks for the comment, hope you enjoy the mgsv video, it’s a hoot I’ll say that
Really enjoyed the vid, I've always felt like mgs2 was a slap in the face, even considering the meta-narrative aspect. I think the Raiden fake-out is such a blatant misinterpretation of player expectations. The reason I wanted to play as snake was because the entire last game was spent with him as the main character. I liked snake as a character and wanted to see his story continue. Half the time I wasn't even in control of the dude, he's just did his thing in cutscenes. Also I think the text on screen was a bit overused. A few times it seemed pertinent enough to just be included in the script outright
YOO I HAVE PLAYED AT LEAST 160 HOURS OF MGS2 (all i had in addition to mgs3 and transformers for the ps2 from the ages of like 10-12) I DID NOT KNOW THAT VAMP COULD PIN YOUR SHADOW
Regarding the Snake Tales section, Kojima doesn't seem to have had anything to do with making them or any of the VR missions for MGS2 Substance; Fukushima is the sole person credited as both the writer and director for those, so it seems somewhat misplaced to put the blame for External Gazer's lackluster themes and messaging on Kojima when there's no proof he wrote it. Rest of the video's based tho, MGS2's issues have been way too ignored in recent years, probably as a result of counter-backlash to the people making really stupid criticisms of the game like “how dare they make me play as an affeminate sissy instead of the macho man Solid Snake?!?! 0/10, everything about this game sucks”; while those kinds of complaints are certainly worthy of push-back, the MGS fanbase has gone too far in the opposite direction, being blinded to all of the game's faults in order to try and portray it as a post-modernist masterpiece whose only issues are intentional ones that secretly enchance the game's story and themes, so it's good to see someone point out meaningful flaws with the game, even if i disagree heavily in regards to the gameplay analysis. Keep doing God's work; this is a really good channel.
Just started the vid, you might convince me otherwise, I think it's MGS4 tho. I played 1-4 as a kid, I always thought 4 was the worst. I liked 24 as a kid, so that's probably why I liked 2, all the terrorist stuff and the weirdness.
I think that a lot of your issues are that you can't suspend your disbelief for the sake of atmosphere or theming. There are no cops and nobody cares about the Arsenal Gear crash because it literally does not matter. It's not about the realistic response of New York City. The game, by this point, has broken all of your senses as a player in a video game and is taking you for a wild ride that was never meant to be elaborated upon. Fortune can deflect the RAY missles at the end because who cares why. MGS1 already had Psycho Mantis and other supernatural elements, and those aren't explained beyond "magic." The story is dramatic and it earns the right to be dramatic with a sense of mystery, a bizarre feeling throughout, and Kojima's wonderfully goofy charm as a project director. You care way too much about the specifics of a story clearly never meant to be tore apart by surgical, literal analysis. You, as Raiden, do naked cartwheels through enemy lines while a robot tells you about the time it got abducted by aliens. Ultimately, what I think you misinterpret from a lot of this game is tone. You're not on-board with the dissonance it presents, and that's fine. You don't gel with the style of game that this is, because it is admittedly fuckin weird. I struggle to understand how you could like *any* Metal Gear because they all do this zany, unexplained shit, but whatever. Good video, keep it up.
I mean, the first part of my video where I discuss the narrative is exactly what you describe, you’re right. The narrative is not meant to be taken seriously. The problem that I go into from that point going forward is the fact that the story is nonsensical for a reason and that reason is poorly developed and doesn’t live up to the quality of writing in MGS 1 or pretty much any game in the series that came after. If people can spend hours explaining how the metanarrative of MGS2 is amazing and ground breaking, I can spend an hour and a half explaining how I feel it isn’t, and explaining how the literal narrative is ridiculous is part of my argument. Because you can say all day “who cares” in relation to this stuff but that doesn’t remedy the fact that a story that makes no sense still makes no sense. What Kojima replaced a logical narrative with was equally as inane except he meant it. Glad you enjoyed the video, and if you would like to know how I can like any other metal gear game, I conveniently have a 4 hour long explanation of that exact thing in relation to MGSV on my channel
@@Tetramorre I think you were more interested in being antithetical to most analysis on the game as a form of content, rather than accepting for what the game is. To me that is the part I enjoy most is what the game makes me feel. I think with any essay people will walk away thinking the author in some ways is speaking as an authority trying to drag a story down, which is why you get responses like this. Neither are right I suppose, but just it would make sense you get pushback because the way people view the games merits directly contradicts why you dislike it and inversely why you critique it to begin with. Which I would agree with in conception, because making another essay with the same talking points WOULD be less interesting in the grand scheme. Despite me ultimately disagreeing, because what I enjoy about the story has no connection to the literal narrative.
@@TheSeaBase Believe what you want, but contrarianism is probably my least favorite trait a content creator can have. I used to like this game, believe me, but the more I played and thought about it the less it clicked for me. My opinion is indeed different from the norm but that doesn't mean I developed it out of a desire to be different for the sake of it, or because I thought it would get me more clicks or something. There's a lot of other stuff I should be doing with this channel if I cared about that lol My disliking of this game has very little to do with the literal narrative, a disproportionate amount to how much of the video is about it. This is a necessary evil as it takes the longest to talk about, but it's not the focus of the video, only a stepping stone to a bigger point later. My dislike of this game goes beyond the literal narrative, just as your enjoyment of it does. I find all of the comments tackling my discussion of the literal narrative a little strange, as it signals to me that either the commenter didn't watch the rest of the video or just assumed that was all I was going to talk about.
After you find out Riden was a child soilder the vr syarts to wig out cause hes breaking from the player at that point, only completely at the end with the dogtags
Do you like MGS2? Do you not? Wanna tell me why? This is where you do that
I love how many people are using the term nitpick in their comments
I gotta ask, (since you have such scorching hot takes) what is the best mgs game.
@@seriousguy9509 My favorite is 3, though it’s difficult for me to speak without extreme bias on that game because it’s the one I’m most nostalgic for.
V is the best, unironically.
@@Tetramorre what's your opinion on MGS4? I'm split of whether or not Kojima made that one out of spite or enthusiasm. It answers all the most interesting questions with the least complicated answers.
And the retcons....and Ugh...Johnny.
@@JudgeSpektre MGS4 feels like a similar case to MGS2 to me except with a less cynical outcome. Kojima sort of gave the fans what they wanted with that one, perhaps with a passing “if this game sucks don’t blame me” but he was also sure to include his own anti-fandom intent in there, like making Snake old just as an example. And then there’s stuff like the return to shadow moses and the RAY v REX battle which feel like pure fanservice with no strings attached. It’s definitely a complicated game to talk about and I think Kojima was probably really conflicted with that one, between his desire to screw over his fans and his desire to send the series off on a high note. Kojima is a very conflicted man and it comes through in his games.
For me, MGS2's lies were more about tone than being literal. The feeling of your brain skipping was what I loved most, everyone is lying and being lied to. Not quite knowing knowing what is going on is what kept me engaged the most. When I finished the game and things didn't quite add up it launched me into all of the other games so I could figure it out.
Snake going after Ray is like a dog going after a car.
-You're not going to catch it, it's a lot faster than you.
-What are you going to do if you do catch it???
Perhaps, but he was probably thinking ahead and equipped an experimental shark whistle to attract enough of them to slow Rey down. After that, water-CQC .
Snake already jumped that particular shark with the tank in MGS1.
And Otacon basically confirmed that Snake was actually insane for it in MGS4.
@johnnybensonitis7853 too few likes for this comment. Holy shit, as ridiculous as it sounds, I wouldn't be surprised if, in some alternate version, that very thing happened, lol.
While I disagree with about 90% of this video, great job on making it! Keep up the good work!
Maybe someday we’ll agree on an mgs take
Ah. A chad that allows opposing opinions. How rare and yet refreshing. Never change.
Was a comfy watch whole way through. Your scripts are so nicely woven together that it's impossible not to recommend these videos :).
He really does such a great job that it makes his videos highly rewatchable. I'm definitely having another watch of his MGS V one. I finished that game last month and somehow it gave me an unquenchable thirst for everything MGS related. If you're into V in particular I'd also highly recommend another 2+ hour long vid on a channel called Keiv Reviews Things.
Yooo! New Tetramorre, looks like I'm staying up until 2am.
Great vid
You know, I had a dream last night about Metal Gear Solid V (or some version of it) and you were narrating it. It may have come off as a fever dream at a time, but I see now that it was a sign.
1:29:37 - "The Fragrance of Dark Coffee"?????
I recognized the tune, but had to sing it all the way through to figure out what it was.
Your channel is seriously amazing and you deserve wayyyy more attention than you have. I found you through your MGSV and Control videos and they just keep getting better. Keep up the great work man! Also I totally feel you on the analytics bit 😂
A new video from Tetramorre ! Yess !
This video is yours is basically the elaboration of Luke Stephen's "Kojima problem" during his Last Stranding video regarding Kojima, his cult of personality and criticism immunity which revolves around said cultish tendency which goes even right into production process of his games, there's so many interesting takes that it would flip many "Video Essays" of MGS2 by asking simple questions of the game's quality itself
Nonetheless MGS2 has many attention to details of it's environment interactivity which is pretty advanced for a PS2 game in 2001, it's the prototype of Cinematic-centric games which prevalent in 7th Gen onwards to most of Playstation 3 and 4 Western exclusives among the "normies" (basically the fans of Blockbuster AAA cinematic games that barely consider Indie and AA games' merits), so that's accountable for it's technical and social achievements on subsequent Playstation games
A lot of the articles and videos on MGS 2 say a lot of the same things, too. I'm surprised there's not a video titled something like, 'Is Kojima a God? THIS fact will prove it!' Have arrows and shit in the thumbnail pointing around and shit.
@@4NT1N008 lol. Lmao, even.
"So far there's been a bunch of cut scenes and not too much gameplay"
Metal gear never changed 😂
So true
I'll say at least you can skip over everything. If you couldn't replays would be brutal
Woke up to a new upload! Looking forward to watching this!
"Metal Gear Solid 2 is the worst Metal Gear Solid Game"
Fucking heathen.
_Hits the Like button._
I like your pfp bro
Have I ever played or heard anything about MGS2? No.
Am I going to watch a 90 minute video on it? Fuck yes.
Dude, you need way more subscribers, this is some high quality shit man!
The problem with the plot is that it doesn't make sense, even considering its meta narrative aspects. Max Payne had a meta-narrative and it still managed to not just make sense, but make sense in the context of its film-noir comic book aesthetic.
Just finished the other MGS video to start this one.
Fantastic video
Thank you for the great watch and for helping PatricianTier with MGSurvive!
The reason Emma does the key card thing is bc Meryl does something similar in 1, it’s one of the tons and tons of small details that add to the simulation for Raiden.
Thought id look into your other works, then i saw this, got excited, made a pot noodle, then i heard the first few seconds.......... oh boy, haven't watched more than that yet but i have to give you credit for the massive brass ones you must have, my hat off to you. Now i shall watch and see where it goes lol
I think, unironically, the best part of MGS2 is the part where you have to snipe the semtex controllers.
if you play through the game on each difficultly level in ascending order more and more control modules are added and it is genuinely challenging and surprising.
I really like this, and the addition of extra C4 blocks you have to find once you enter hard mode and I really wish there was more mix ups like it.
I don't think you convinced me about anything but you reminded me of the way I thought about this game before the internet discussions hijacked my brain. I enjoyed MGS2, thought it had interesting ideas, but thought it didn't manage to keep itself together and collapsed under the weight of things it tried to do... Resulting in a noble and entertaining failure, as far as narrative goes. Gameplay-wise, I thought it was excellent regardless. But, as stated in a work of fiction I quite enjoy, even a poorly made gesture can work, even clumsily chosen words can move you.
my 3rd time rewatching this and this just clearly puts my thoughts on mgs2 into words that i personally couldn't do without making a video myself lmao
As a kid who used to play MGS2 and loved playing this game, this video had truly made me take a huge step back and realize how much of a great point you provide in this video, and while I still am a big fan of this game and sorta disagreed at some points, I still think that you truly made a great point in this video, hope you have a good day or night
Also the games events give me a mix of john woo and Micheal bay films lol (and maybe a bit of the wachoski sisters)
Yeah, but MGS2 had a book in it about a guy sneaking to Shadow Moses while wearing a fish carcass. What other criteria is there for a masterpiece?
Metal Gear Sole-id.
1:12:40 Spec Ops: The Line does that too.
Honestly, as somebody who has thought Kojima is an overrated developer, I never knew that his disdain for his own fans was so strong. If you take that quote at 56:16, replace “character” with “movie,” and “Metal Gear” with “Star Wars,” and make it in reference to The Last Jedi, NOBODY would have supported it. It’s crazy the contrast between FromSoftware’s philosophy of using games to teach the player how to overcome challenges and Kojima’s of “gamers are stupid and basically murderers.”
Also, top tier video. I respect you for getting through that book for the sake of this video, because I would’ve stopped reading once I saw the cover. I’d also like to mention that “developer intentions” can hold a lot of weight when considering game mechanics, and it’s especially great for game series that improve to meet that vision over time; I.e., the Witcher games slowly becoming open world as CDPR works through their technical and budgetary limitations.
Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy didn't make Star Wars. An author gets benefit of the doubt over the direction of their own creation ideally.
Your comparison doesn't really work, Rian Johnson was allowed to work with the Star Wars franchise, but it wasn't HIS.
The story might be different if George Lucas remained at the helm and did his story of the 'whylls' trilogy, but he didn't.
Awesome video dude very well crafted🤙👍. Always happy to see good MGS content. Especially MGS2
I loved Riden when I first played this game but I binged the entire saeries with the HD release
That part at 1:12:00 where the real good ending was to not play is one of the things that I most dislike in media ever. It actively made my enjoyment of a game like spec ops be extremely dampened, specially when it didn't give you choices to not commit warcrimes and then has the gall to call you bad for attempting to play a highly linear game like that.
Insanely low view count for the amount of effort put into this video, thanks for helping the first half of my shift go by quicker
I appreciate the unique perspective you've got on this game thank you for sharing
Love how you opened up with the persona 5 ost
Man, great video!
There's a few points I disagree with personally (namely the tranq gun status as BiS being a bad thing and the current state of "fact checking" on social media) but overall, quite a few hot takes here! Looking forward for more of your stuff
Edit: One thing I want to add on the whole "critiquing the players who blindly follow what the game tells them" subject since we discussed it on discord briefly if you do that in a purely linear game with no player choice it's the equivalent of releasing a book that criticizes the reader for reading the words on it. You can't do that because it loses its impact when the player/reader realizes "But wait I, quite literally, didn't have a choice you forced me to do these things to get the message". At best it's hypocritical and at worse it's... void? Null? Worthless?
Edit 2 (I need to stop posting comments before finishing the video): The external gazer stuff looks like a poorly executed Soma. You should play that game if you haven't by the way, I think you'd really like it
My wife and I got half-way through SOMA before stopping. We need to remedy that.
About the "critiquing the players who blindly follow what the game tells them" subject, isn't that just Kojima being Kojima? Like I get the criticism about it, but at one point his games stopped being about the game and more about the experience kinda. It might not apply to MGS2 though since it's so early on, but it's interesting to think about. This game might be the beginnings of that.
(also I have no experience with Kojima games except for having heard people talk about them so take this with a tablespoon of salt lol)
@@FromHerotoZeroYT I mean it probably is to be honest. Good old Hodeo Kujumbo
_criticizes the reader for reading the words on it._
So Don Quixote, one of the most important and influential literature of all time?
No. Get fucked. Some people plant themselves in front of their monitors and soak media without thinking at all about what they've had dumped into them, and these people are toxic for society. This argument gets polluted by spec ops the line, which does this incorrectly, because it treats the act of murder in a game as equivalent to murder in real life. Even if at a certain point, I stopped killing basically anyone in MGS, because I needed the challenge, and it felt "right" to me, I don't pretend that people who are shooting real bullets are playing the game wrong, and neither does the game. Maybe 4, but its more complicated there.
@@shoopoop21 "criticizes the reader for reading the words on it.
So Don Quixote, one of the most important and influential literature of all time? "
If you think that's what Don Quixote was doing, you either need to read it again or you need to stop reading alltogether.
Another incredible video! Thank you for the detailed, fair, careful analysis! (I couldnt even get through the game…. I just felt like the game was carelessly wasting my time and interest in the series). Like, absolutely nothing in the game touched or interested me (other than a bit of Solidus’ character). You recapped and commented on the game in a really effective way. Not just plot. Not just hot takes. Awesome work, again! :)
This is the game Survive is better than?
And I stand by it.
The counters were a neat idea and this is just a minor nitpick but they can be kinda hard to keep track of when there's a lot of ticks in rapid succession. For a complete outsider to the MGS series like I am, it can be hard to know which piece of information in a sentence the ticks are referring to. Also, another nitpick, there's a lot of "add-on" text. I get that it's not very tempting to set back up the recording equipment just for a little foot-note or some extra info, hell I'm guilty of that same thing, but it helps with the overall feel of the content not to have to pause the video to read a couple of lines of text every now and then. Everything else was great! Your VO audio quality really is top-notch.
Tell me, how hard was it to not include the "I can break these cuffs" clip during that one scene lol
Also much love for using Ratchet and Clank 1 music
Ah, but isn’t the fact that you can’t tell what the ticks are exactly referring to not putting you in the shoes of someone who has no idea what exactly is going on?
Lol I kid
Mostly
Edit: Perhaps I need to reconsider my mantra about the text blurbs. A few years ago they were more in vogue but I’m realizing I don’t see them much any more lol
@@Tetramorre I had no idea the ticks worked on multiple levels. Well played, I stand corrected
When you're dropping down during the platforming gauntlet, you can use first person view to... Look down both hanging and stood up.
44:12 Solidus is using a P90 firing FN 5.7x28 caliber cartridges. This is a round that was designed to penetrate armor. Solidus firing that tiny caliber penetrator point-blank would mean maximum muzzle velocity that consequentially can easily punch through armor with so many hits in such a tiny area of a couple inches apart at max.
I hear what you’re saying, and that’s a valid point. And yet it takes four stinger missiles to the open chassis to knock it out in the following boss battle (assuming you stun it in the knees first otherwise it takes five or sixish) and that doesn’t even completely destroy it because the RAYs just walk away once their HP is drained.
Even if it does make internal sense, it still is a problem because it takes away from the impact of the boss battle in the same way Cloud chopping through three Darksides with one hit for each does in Kingdom Hearts 2. “Cutscene Power to the Max” is the problem here, even barring internal logic.
@@Tetramorre its not a valid arguement; 5.7x28 is designed to defeat light infantry russian body armor, its not a fucking anti material rifle, op
I need dollars Raiden, $50!
Pretty good video, I like it. I like how you structure these videos by criticizing the objective context of the game and how it is told while also giving your own opinions based on the games content. You’d think lots of people would do this but I don’t see it that often.
While I don't agree with everything you've said I really enjoyed your video. I'm happy to have found your channel! Subscribed!
i apricate every video you make keep it up
Really enjoyed the video. I watched it a couple days ago and after digesting the message (well, I hope, it's been a couple days so I could be off the mark now), these are my thoughts:
First of all, Snake diving after RAY is badass, so you're wrong.
Lol nah but seriously, you have valid points ofc regarding the mess that is the literal narrative. It's like a weird fever dream that tries to redefine Metal Gear.
So, I think It's fair to criticize Kojima's failed intent with this game, but I also think it's fair to remove Kojima entirely when evaluating the game. If he intends that we stop playing to truly 'win', well that's not a real choice. But I as a consumer of art can reject his intent and derive my own meaning from the game. I don't think it's fair to tear down the art when it's the artist that failed. The art still is what it is and has its merits. I can choose the author be dead and ignore them and their reasons for the game if that's the way I came to enjoy the game. I feel this video is directed more at Kojima than the game itself. Maybe you already intend it that way and I and everybody else are just thrown off by the title hahaha. Probably, since the substance of your message is discussion over the metanarrative.
Anyway, since I said the artist failed and not the art, what does art failing look like? That's probably something like External Gazer. Where the artist's intent seeps past the metanarrative and into the literal.
I interpret the game as: you play the whole game wanting to know what the hell is going on, and at the end are told that they are aware of your curiosity and contextualize the last 10 hours by saying they were just herding you along and pulling you by your curiosity leash because they could, because it was easy. The writer punishes you for reading their work. But you were doing it because its a game and you were just playing to finish it. So Snake says you should just believe in something for yourself. You can believe the last 10 hours means what it means to you, not what it meant to the AIs.
(Is it good? I dunno. Enjoying something doesn't make it good, but enjoyment itself is good, and I enjoyed those 10 hours.)
I was curious coming to this video off of Pat's MG Survive video. I feel I understand why you felt Survive was better than Sons of Liberty and I actually think its a fair opinion. Art is subjective and we all look at and value different things. It's rare when 'hot take' opinions are explained as thoroughly as you've done here, so for that I thank you for the effort because it did come across to me and I can see your perspective.
This is an excellent comment, and I'm glad you enjoyed the video. You pretty much hit the nail on the head, and your interpretation of the narrative is solid, even if it's not how I feel about it.
Beautifully worded break down. Another slam dunk.
Came from Pat's channel. Great video, I'm a fan of Raiden but I agree mgs2 is not that great. I especially love the external gazer bit. Keep on making these videos. I came here thinking I'd hear some fanboy bs, but you've been logical and chill.
Disagree with a lot in this and your phantom pain video but enjoyed watching both. Great research and arguments put forward!
I really appreciate your perspective. This was very interesting. Maybe I'll read that book.
This deserves more views and likes
31:48
I'm pretty sure this was meant to be a call back to MG1 where meryl crosses the mine field for snake, she even asks him the same question afterwards "Are you impressed?"
Yeah, someone else pointed that out. Kinda funny lol
10:07 Yo its me, that fightin freak KNUCKLES. YOU REALLY DIDN'T THINK I'D RECOGNIZE THAT IN A HEART BEAT?!?!? i aint gone let it get to me chillin on pumpkin hill. Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Personally, the story not making perfect sense doesn’t bother me due to what it has to say.
I greatly value the expression > a perfectly tight story, but if it does bother you that is valid.
Every character being confused and information being all over the place is exactly the point of the game, having the actual narrative be confusing and not make perfect sense causes the audience to feel the same way the character does in this world of lies and half truths.
> "We're gonna use this sound effect for lies..." **!**
...ohno.
A) Great video! And I have to say - having watched your videos in chronological order after having discovered your channel - the rate your delivery improved between videos is astounding
B) I mostly agree with your analysis and criticisms of the metanarrative (particularly the implied criticism that the primary/literal narrative shouldn't suffer in order to deliver a metanarrative); however, I feel there is another metanarrative criticizing the player that I've never seen analyzed or even mentioned outside of possible praise of "ludonarrative harmony"(ugh). That being that due to all of the extraneous and contradictory information provided throughout the game, players will inevitably either cherry-pick bits and pieces to support their own hypotheses, or in an attempt to integrate everything into an internally consistent narrative reach for a schizophrenic/nihilistic explanation (ala "it was all VR!!!" BS.) Raiden still acts as a player surrogate initially; with the undermining of Raiden's world/relationships (and/or regaining a "forgotten" "identity") mirroring how increasingly disconnected the player must become from the literal narrative in an attempt to make sense of it. Raiden throwing away his dogtags - the only information we definitively knew that didn't come from an unreliable narrator - symbolizing how easily we can reject truth if it doesn't align with most of the other information. All of which reflecting the themes of disinformation and information control.
C) While I do believe the above is an equally valid metanarrative as the player control one, I in no way think that its possible presence (or even their simultaneous presence) vindicates or even improves MGS2. tbh I feel like Kojima employed the same narrative trick YIIK did decades later (ie shove as many possible themes as you can while obfuscating as much as possible with increasingly contradictory information/narrative beats in an attempt to support them all). imo the only reason one is hailed as a masterpiece and the other is derided is the developer goodwill that comes with making a fun series
D) I wonder if you hold Harlequin novels in the same regard as dating sims, because both are equally guilty of the same excesses
Makes sense, honestly
Great video! Though there are some very minor nitpicks I could make like the 10th misdirection not having a sound, though I could be just deaf.
Came from the Metal Gear Survive video you collaborated on, and when I heard "MG Survive is better than MGS2" I was surprised. This video was incredibly well made and it offered a new perspective that I would've never even considered. Keep up the great work!
I never realized that about Kojima having such disdain for his own American fans back then, holy shit. It makes so much more sense in retrospect. I haven't played through this game in many years since it first came out, so I've kinda taken all the videos praising it at their word. I LOVED MGS 3 and it actually renewed my interest in the series despite the original release sticking to the old top-down perspective. I'm currently playing through The Phantom Pain and it's the most fun I've ever had with a Metal Gear game, and I look forward to moving on to your video on it when I finish. Great video, you make some really great stuff!
It is a pretty good video and you do raise tons of valid criticism at the game. I myself played it just a bit before V was release, so you can say I never was part of the Kojima cult. To begin with I was already aware of his animosity when he created 2, though your video drove the point even further. I and did know about the twist to begin with and a lot of what people were already saying about the game, both good and negative.
Does Kojima intent matter? As you said, not necessarily. Of course, if he wasn't sperging out he probably could have easily made a better game, both mechanically and story-wise, and he should certainly be criticized over that.
Point is though, I did have fun with it regardless. And a lot of fun and even some feels, despite some of the certainly questionable writing. Though as people have been pointing out for a long time, can we even attribute all of the writing, or even most of it, especially the good parts, but rightfully so the bad parts too, just to Kojima? Because there certainly seems like were some other important developers contributing to both story and gameplay.
So even when I was already heavily spoilered, but maybe still not understanding everything, because I didn't experience it for myself yet, I ended up enjoying it a lot. I will never call it a perfect game, nor even a flawed masterpiece, but it is truth that in many ways I am not sure if I have enjoyed a game ever as much since I played MGS2 or even before that. That's a very questionable statement, because I am not sure if it is truly the truth, even if I am speaking about myself. To me even if I do call it "favourite", believe me, it doesn't mean much. I am not trying to sound edgy and snowflaky, but I am one of these people that just can't quite ever commit to something in certain media being "favourite", probably simply because I don't get to feel that overwhelmingly strong about things. Not saying I am an emotionless bot, though, far from it. Maybe that's pointless blabber trying to justify saying I enjoyed MGS2 possible more than any other game, but it feels important to me to explain that this for me would not mean the same fireworks it might mean for some other people.
And yes, the gameplay is flawed, probably more than I realized at the time of playing it. Story has tons of questionable elements. All of that could have been better, I don't argue that. Point here is I had fun, and a lot of it. Many people seem to have. And on some level that surely matters, right?
And I am not saying that as an argument of "that means it is a good game", but because you say if the story of the game was a VR, then it is even more pointless than it already was by simple being heavily flawed. While a bad story ending can certainly ruin an otherwise good story and maybe even the after taste of good gameplay (talking in general here), in this case I don't feel it is like this. Probably the biggest reason for that is that to even get to the meta conclusions, well, you probably have to go outside of the game. Either spend a lot of time yourself thinking about it or like most of us actually in a lot of discussions with others. So, if anything you are interacting with people and stimulating your brain even after you have ended the game. As sometimes people say about a good story, you can intrepid it many ways, perhaps most importantly, in ways that are important/helpful to you. Despite Kojima's intentions, what many people saw in the lessons about information control, memes and the human psyche are still worth it. One way or another the game made us think, interact with each other and it keeps doing this today.
Related to this sentiment...
Again, you say if the game is a VR simulation it is then worthless, but that just seems weird to me and not really well justified, basically mostly just stating that it is worthless, cause that's what you think. Especially as you have established in the video, we can just ignore Kojima spering out and have fun despite him. Or in fact, though that would be a harder to prove point, Kojima might have had his intent, but it doesn't mean it wasn't clashing with the intent of other people that were making the game, which might be the reason the game is not even more of a mess than it already is in many aspects. So, Kojima's intent is certainly important, maybe the most important. But even if it is like 60% or 70% of the game, there still might be a lot of intent going against him.
I don't know, maybe I am just a dumbass and despite listening to your arguments more than once, I just can't agree with you saying it would make the game worthless and I think you case for it is very... not even sure what to say. Perhaps, but also very likely not, maybe just emotionally driver argument? Cause it makes you mad that Kojima did what he did. Except I am not sure you actually feel that passionate about it, just wanted to have a big point to argue with others, which in a way it is the MGS2 we made along the way... (a joke and in a way my point too). It is 50 dollars, so Kojima's intent is bad and the game is therefore bad, but that seems a bit too reductive towards the whole of what the game has to offer, even if it is that is far, far from perfect or whatever. A fiction within a fiction doesn't make it worthless. Even if all withing the game was fictional, we can still relate to characters and learn lessons. That's what fiction does to begin with. But then we maybe just get some extra lessons or at least possible thought provoking on the top of that.
As an extra, that also ignores Kojima himself and other stuff too. I have to excuse myself again for having played the games only once, 6 years ago and haven't been in an actual MGS discussion in a long while. Wasn't MGS1 already canonically a VR that Raiden did to become a good soldier (his childhood aside). Or at the very least there is a MGS1 VR and we can't know for sure if MGS1 we played was the VR or the complete reality (especially without the context from the rest of the games, but maybe even despite them?). I don't remember a good reason why we can't say that this is the actual first S3, other than the game claiming MGS2 was, but then it obviously reveals that MGS2 is a different type of S3, but does that really mean the first S3 doesn't exist and it is not actually MGS1? (After my third rewatch seems like you agree MGS1 is canonically a VR, so I guess I was not misremembering that at least?)
And so, what if MGS2 is the VR that not Raiden (who already experienced maybe the real events of it, or just another simulation of it, doesn't matter too much, at least to me making this argument and not arguing about that), but the VR that the player played through? In fact, we can say that the VR would exactly want to trick us into thinking it is not one, or at the very least get us into a false sense of security and that we grew like Raiden did and we will free ourselves like Raiden did. Now we know about information control and what not and we will be free, except not really. We are just making a fist feeling good for ourselves and that's where it actually ends for us. This would also mean that Raiden doesn't have to be the ordinary man, because we are the ordinary man tricking ourselves, we are just like the hero of the story. Or at the very least Raiden as a person is as railroaded as arguably, we are in many aspects. A possible point of relatability with him. If the rest of the games didn't exist as intent at least by Kojima, though as I said how much his personal intentions and opinions mattered is likely highly exaggerated (as reality would prove with the next games existing), then if the rest of the MGS storyline didn't exist, maybe Raiden didn't exist either, and he is just there to be what tricks the player to think he is not the subject of S3 himself and that Raiden is. In a way, Raiden is our Snake. Not the Snake, the pretend soldier hero, but Raiden, the pretend freeman that we might end up thinking to be. Though it might be argued that if we hate him and we think he is a dummy and what not, and that we are not a dummy like him, that could also be one intent by the system possible interactions with the player ending in his false sense of achievement.
The system here being the system that GW represent and goes beyond the intentions of Kojima or the rest of the team and interacts with us as how we choose to let it interact with us and see the world. And again, just because I might be saying that MGS2 was "powerful" enough (maybe I would prefer to say "interactive enough") to make us think in such ways (and hopefully enjoy the gameplay too, not just the story analyzes meanings, though the gameplay, the fact it is a game by itself is very important too), doesn't necessarily make it a meme masterpiece or flawed masterpiece of whatever. Just an interesting, highly interactive type of media, and by itself is at the very least worth something for sure, even to people that might hate it (which I am not saying you do) or at least enjoy criticizing it heavily, which is not inherently just negative in content, nor nature.
Continue... I think for the first time I hit a post too long error on youtube.
This is actually the part of my post that I am adding the last, as I almost forgot about it. Quitting the game. If we add this idea to it all too, what happens? Why to begin with must we accept it so "direct"? Quitting what game? Whose game? If the lesson here is to oppose some sort of oppressive system or status quo or human nature or whatever, wouldn't that be the game to quit? To disturb the system, to redefine the rules of the game. Arguable, like Kojima wanted to set himself free, but he didn't manage to. Except maybe he did, just not in a way he might realize at face value? Who knows, or maybe we can know or at least speculate, but I am not all about that right now. It does remind me of the story of Welcome to the NHK. A story about a person with severe social phobias and had closed off himself from society, but was now trying to set himself free, but then the ending is very questionably likely not a happy one. And then the reality is for years after the success of the novel (and then the manga and anime), the original writer himself got even more reclusive himself. This used to be a big discussion point among fans and still is. Except extra years later he actually did manage to go out in the world, stumbled a bit for a while, but seems like he is at a very good spot right now, something most of his fans don't seem to know.
Of course all of that is just me having fun thinking about the story and maybe it doesn't amount to anything else and it is super-duper wrong, cause "intent", but I had some sort of fun thinking and writing this, so I got even more value of MGS2 right now. There was also something to be said about how many people might have played the game for free to begin with, considering how old it is and stuff. Wink wink. Or at least experience it for free, you know, through people's videos. Like I did before eventually play it myself. Though I don't even remember anymore did I really see videos of it before playing, or just some discussions (which is similar, but different) and maybe just a video of GW's final reveals.
Hope I actually provided some food for thought. And hopefully I was able to get my ideas across and it wasn't all just too badly structured and written, a bit ironic if so, huh?
Oh and, it is not to excuse any clunky and bad writing, but MGS is in general goofy in many ways. And perhaps it can be goofy and make more cohesive sense at parts, but perhaps, maybe, how did Ocelot jump into the Metal Gear just doesn't matter, because it is fun goofy at least. And in current year I think we certainly have realized things can be both goofy and have serious messages. Of course, some might not find it as a fun goofy thing and just an annoyance, but maybe, just maybe, but not necessarily, we are falling at the trap of overthinking and over analyzing everything, which is part of the fun, though maybe it can also be part of what starts robing us of fun at some point, while we continue striving for some final objectivity on the matter?
And if Kojima hated people not thinking deeply enough about the story, themes, characters, ect, we certainly are now, and MGS2 played an important role in that. Maybe the game was intentionally thought provoking? Of course, that might be giving Kojima especially too much credit. Spoiler alert, I have been left with the impression he is a bit of a hack and long before this video and even before playing games. But these games are more than just him, or even the rest of the team in some ways.
Also, for example I don't mention the uninspired design of the game world (map), cause not much to add there. And yes, I know you seem to probably still like the game, maybe not as much as other games in the series, but still. I don't definitely don't think you are hating on it, but I do think you might have gotten a bit too caught up in arguing. I know I have done and still do a lot of that myself and think many of us do. Which has both its merits, especially entertainment, but as stated, maybe also diminishing returns.
I agree entirely about the tranq gun. Its so over powered that you could argue that it comes close to ruining the entire series. I wish the devs had taken mgs2 as a lesson in the importance weapon balance, but they didn't and the problem only becomes worse as the series goes on. There are so many things they could have done to balance it. They could have removed the silencer. They could have made it so guards will trigger caution upon waking. They could have limited ammo drops. But they made it even stronger in every subsequent release. Its completely antithetical to themes the story is trying to explore about desensitization to violence and war.
I’m MG3 they add the wearing of suppressors. But even those are so abundant.
@28:30 you could always look in first person
"Fact checking on Facebook isn't censorship"
:^)
You can shoot Vamp while he swims. I do that and remove 1/3rd his health in the battle with that method
Glad I subbed earlier on, when you said that MGS2 is probably the worst one, you just bought yourself a long-time viewer. Now onto the rest of the video.
So basically, Raz0rFist was right about Kojima.
1:12:41 Probably even more interesting comparison might've been Spec Ops The Line, not only as a win by not playing, but also a game that lies to you.
Still haven’t gotten around to playing that one unfortunately
My friend Jason and I repeatedly played the demo for MGS2 on the Zone of the Enders disc and actually became huge fans of the series in the process. When the game finally came out we both got it day one and I imagine I beat both campaigns in one sitting. For the next six months or so I would go over to his house and we would just play through it beginning to end multiple times over the course of a weekend to see who could beat it faster or accomplish some other challenge. I continued playing it on my own for years afterward until European Extreme became mostly muscle memory. I must have done hundreds of playthroughs, at least of Snake’s chapter. That being said, I barely understood the story as a kid and I still don’t quite understand it as an adult. And I’m not the type of person to skip cutscenes either. I’ve always acknowledged this game’s many flaws, but I still consider it my favorite in the series and I go back and forth on whether this or Snake Eater was the peak of the franchise. I love the deeper mechanics in Snake Eater, but I don’t think this kind of gameplay lends itself well to a jungle. It’s still great, but the setting of MGS 1 and 2 are perfect.
I don't respect Media of any sort that deliberately wastes my time. Even less so if I'm paying for the privilege.
I didn't pay for a ticket to the Last Jedi to then have the series shat upon. Subversion of expectations is no guarantee of anything being good.
If I have an expectation of going to the gas station and along the way I get kicked in the nuts that was a subversion. Certainly would not consider that a good one.
One thing I laughed at in mgs4 was the VR angle was dropped by kojima. His grand middle finger was retracted..to an extent.
I fondly think of mgs4 as "Retcon theater". Even made a drinking game. Take a shot every time he pulls a retcon/ contrivance / or deliberately underwhelming answer to a popular question.
Just make sure you don't have work in the morning.
You might be surprised to know the wiseman’s committee formed the philosophers.
Have you ever watched super bunny hop’s videos on the mgs series?
Yes, though it’s been quite a while since
Came back to rewatch this & noticed for some reason I didn't like it earlier so I fixed that. I've been having issues trying to find a specific video going over the issues with the HD edition (not master) from its first port to xbox original & remembered this. Couldn't find either of them & had to find your video through Patrician's link on his old MGS vid.
Wow, a youtube essayist being an edgy contrarian. Colour me shocked..!
It's pretty funny to me that I played MGS2 when it was rereleased on Vita, and I was still disappointed by playing Raiden. I got to finally play a metal gear game, and I don't get to play that guy from Smash Bros anymore?
Kojima’s trolling transcends fandoms
i do agree that there is not enough gameplay in this game lol
Even tho I disagree with a lot, this is a banger video.
I really hate when games try to make you feel bad for playing them, unless it's a bait and switch for the message like Totono, where the goal is to fight against that and derive meaning from the experience. I've also seen people bring up Spec Ops: The Line as an example of a game which tries to guilt you for playing it. I disagree. I tend to view Spec Ops more as a indictment of the industry surrounding the Modern Military Shooter and their approach to storytelling. It doesn't guilt you, it guilts Walker, who's madness is conveyed by the paint by numbers gameplay.
As a person that played and enjoyed a lot of dating sims/visual novels, I am deeply disturbed by the way you see it. I'm not mad, I just started wondering if there is something wrong with me.
I’ve played them too. It’s one reason why DDLC shook me so much, and has stuck with me so strongly.
@@Tetramorre You know, I thought about it and there is something wrong with me. Not because I play them. That wrongness simply resulted in loneliness. They are just the only option for me to feel something like that. And you shouldn't judge a starving man for stealing a loaf of bread.
@@TheBaca219 Hmm. Perhaps.
You're my new favourite video essay youtuber, your production quality is amazing. Now the next goal is to up those video length numbers, you gotta beat Patrician's 12 hours for sure!
I, for one, am not a masochist
I disagree with practically everything you say in this video. But your points were well researched, and you were passionate in your takes. Subscribed.
Agreed, the marines could have shot ocelot earlier, but they can't hit him because of the device he has.
Don't know if this is mentioned later or not.
I mean, that doesn’t change the fact they didn’t try to shoot, and that’s presuming he had the item on him at the time which he may not have since I (don’t think) there’s any evidence of such. This may have actually made the reveal at the end pretty cool but nah
Big Shell = B.S. 🤯🤯🤯🤯🙀
You got some good points there, but my biggest issue is questioning logic of a game that doesn't even try to be realistic. I don't mean elves, magic and unicorns, but rather telepathy, telekinesis, unnatural powers and so on. If we were to question everything that's unreal, we should start with gameplay mechanics, such as surviving explosions and healing them with food etc. That's where we'd come to conclusion that if games were 100% realistic and logical, the would no longer be fun.
I only looked at the game’s literal interpretation to prove a point later in the video. Besides, every game, book, movie, regardless of their amount of fantasy present, has internal consistency it must adhere to. We accept that Superman can fly and shoot lasers out of his eyes, but if he suddenly started controlling people’s minds we’d have an issue, because the story is suddenly ignoring its own internal consistency.
MGS2 has a good reason to break internal consistency, as I continue on to talk about after the initial parts of the video. I constructed that section to explain why we must look beyond the literal interpretation of the narrative.
What if Franz Kafka wrote an episode of Black Mirror? I think it'd go a little something like this ^
On the "the only choice the player has is to turn the game off" point;
Metal Gear Rising Revengeance turns this on its head, because its meta narrative is "it's a video game, why should you care about the ethics of slicing dudes in half? Just have fun with it" - just like Raiden does when he lets Jack the Ripper come out before the fight with Monsoon
Which is the direct opposite to MGS2's "stop playing or AI will enslave the world!!!11!!111!!!!!!!" meta narrative (which is very similar to Spec Ops: The Line, but that game gets sucked off for its "you coulda just turned the game off, you didn't have to use white phosphorous" meta commentary)
Also that "every time you kill an enemy in the VR missions, you're killing someone FOR REAL!" shit is some "video games cause violence" bullshit
I really need to play that game again sometime
MGS2 was the Evangelion of vidya this whole time
Solidus freed Raiden because solidus' plan was to return freedom to america, so i think he did that so atleast raiden would not have his fate put in grasp of someone else
Just saw you on Patricians podcast and you seem really cool! I look forward to watching your stuff
I really despise Snake's speech at the end. I disagree with it entirely. Also, I thought Codec Rose was always GW, while the real Rose only appears at the end.
i'm kinda out of the loop here, where's his 4 hour long MGS V video? coulda swore it was here couple months ago
ua-cam.com/video/mlGPPEHeMjs/v-deo.html&ab_channel=Tetramorre
@@Tetramorre wow, didn't expect the answer from the creator, thanks a bunch! looks like the video itself is blocked in my country though. real bad, i like your analysis of this game. thank you again Tetramorre!
That’s a bummer, it’s a copyright issue. That was back when I put all kinds of copyrighted music in my videos cause I didn’t care lol, if you have a discord I could probably try and send you a copy. Or maybe you could use a video downloading program to pull it off youtube
I would have never believed that PatricianTV's Metal Gear Survive video review would lead me here, but goddamn, am I glad it did. Honestly, I was truly lured here by the hottest gaming take of the century, but holy shit, this is a good video. It's going to make me think about it for a little while, at least.
Some thoughts:
* I genuinely thought that the game that you would bring up at the 1:12:39 mark would have been Spec Ops: The Line. Not saying DDLC wasn't a bad example, but it did surprise me, to say the least. I'm not sure if you are aware of the former game, but it _kinda_ has that whole “Don’t win, stop playing right NOW, it’s objectively the best choice” message, but the context for it is different. It pretty much beats the player to death with it, but I wouldn’t know, I just watch a lot of footage about the game and not play it (lol). Also, unrelated note, I couldn’t help but think of that one quote from WarGames during that segment: _"The only winning move is not to play."_
* Wow. I would have NEVER guessed that Kojima had such contempt for his American fans back then. I wouldn’t be surprised if he still holds that today, but I wouldn’t know, and I don’t care. I mean, I still like the guy’s work, it’s not too far off to say that he is one of my inspirations when it comes to my own stories, but still. Good to know, I guess.
* On the off chance that MGS 2 was truly the grand finale of the whole series...I’m not sure if that’s something I can fully grasp, at least for right now. All I can say is, that would be one way to leave your mark on the world. Not a period, not an exclamation point, but a bold and firm question mark. On a related note, that whole “VR Theory” thing actually has merit. I like it.
That's about it, really. I'm gonna stick around and watch your four hour video on MGS V now :)
Spec Ops probably would have also fit but I haven’t played it personally, and I’ve seen lots of dissenting opinions recently on whether or not that game actually accomplishes its goals well. Plus I like the contrast of using a cutesy visual novel to explain how a super important war game fails at commentary lol
Thanks for the comment, hope you enjoy the mgsv video, it’s a hoot I’ll say that
Imagine making a movie length contrarian bait post.
Really enjoyed the vid, I've always felt like mgs2 was a slap in the face, even considering the meta-narrative aspect. I think the Raiden fake-out is such a blatant misinterpretation of player expectations. The reason I wanted to play as snake was because the entire last game was spent with him as the main character. I liked snake as a character and wanted to see his story continue. Half the time I wasn't even in control of the dude, he's just did his thing in cutscenes.
Also I think the text on screen was a bit overused. A few times it seemed pertinent enough to just be included in the script outright
Yeah but snake butt
Ledhead should watch this video before, you know what...
i would agree that metal gear solid 2 is the worst
subsistence saved the fuck outta it tho
YOO I HAVE PLAYED AT LEAST 160 HOURS OF MGS2 (all i had in addition to mgs3 and transformers for the ps2 from the ages of like 10-12) I DID NOT KNOW THAT VAMP COULD PIN YOUR SHADOW
Regarding the Snake Tales section, Kojima doesn't seem to have had anything to do with making them or any of the VR missions for MGS2 Substance; Fukushima is the sole person credited as both the writer and director for those, so it seems somewhat misplaced to put the blame for External Gazer's lackluster themes and messaging on Kojima when there's no proof he wrote it.
Rest of the video's based tho, MGS2's issues have been way too ignored in recent years, probably as a result of counter-backlash to the people making really stupid criticisms of the game like “how dare they make me play as an affeminate sissy instead of the macho man Solid Snake?!?! 0/10, everything about this game sucks”; while those kinds of complaints are certainly worthy of push-back, the MGS fanbase has gone too far in the opposite direction, being blinded to all of the game's faults in order to try and portray it as a post-modernist masterpiece whose only issues are intentional ones that secretly enchance the game's story and themes, so it's good to see someone point out meaningful flaws with the game, even if i disagree heavily in regards to the gameplay analysis.
Keep doing God's work; this is a really good channel.
The truth is the truth and a lie is a lie. No discussion needs to be had.
Just started the vid, you might convince me otherwise, I think it's MGS4 tho. I played 1-4 as a kid, I always thought 4 was the worst. I liked 24 as a kid, so that's probably why I liked 2, all the terrorist stuff and the weirdness.
I think that a lot of your issues are that you can't suspend your disbelief for the sake of atmosphere or theming. There are no cops and nobody cares about the Arsenal Gear crash because it literally does not matter. It's not about the realistic response of New York City. The game, by this point, has broken all of your senses as a player in a video game and is taking you for a wild ride that was never meant to be elaborated upon. Fortune can deflect the RAY missles at the end because who cares why. MGS1 already had Psycho Mantis and other supernatural elements, and those aren't explained beyond "magic." The story is dramatic and it earns the right to be dramatic with a sense of mystery, a bizarre feeling throughout, and Kojima's wonderfully goofy charm as a project director. You care way too much about the specifics of a story clearly never meant to be tore apart by surgical, literal analysis. You, as Raiden, do naked cartwheels through enemy lines while a robot tells you about the time it got abducted by aliens.
Ultimately, what I think you misinterpret from a lot of this game is tone. You're not on-board with the dissonance it presents, and that's fine. You don't gel with the style of game that this is, because it is admittedly fuckin weird. I struggle to understand how you could like *any* Metal Gear because they all do this zany, unexplained shit, but whatever. Good video, keep it up.
I mean, the first part of my video where I discuss the narrative is exactly what you describe, you’re right. The narrative is not meant to be taken seriously. The problem that I go into from that point going forward is the fact that the story is nonsensical for a reason and that reason is poorly developed and doesn’t live up to the quality of writing in MGS 1 or pretty much any game in the series that came after. If people can spend hours explaining how the metanarrative of MGS2 is amazing and ground breaking, I can spend an hour and a half explaining how I feel it isn’t, and explaining how the literal narrative is ridiculous is part of my argument. Because you can say all day “who cares” in relation to this stuff but that doesn’t remedy the fact that a story that makes no sense still makes no sense. What Kojima replaced a logical narrative with was equally as inane except he meant it.
Glad you enjoyed the video, and if you would like to know how I can like any other metal gear game, I conveniently have a 4 hour long explanation of that exact thing in relation to MGSV on my channel
@@Tetramorre I think you were more interested in being antithetical to most analysis on the game as a form of content, rather than accepting for what the game is. To me that is the part I enjoy most is what the game makes me feel. I think with any essay people will walk away thinking the author in some ways is speaking as an authority trying to drag a story down, which is why you get responses like this. Neither are right I suppose, but just it would make sense you get pushback because the way people view the games merits directly contradicts why you dislike it and inversely why you critique it to begin with. Which I would agree with in conception, because making another essay with the same talking points WOULD be less interesting in the grand scheme. Despite me ultimately disagreeing, because what I enjoy about the story has no connection to the literal narrative.
@@TheSeaBase Believe what you want, but contrarianism is probably my least favorite trait a content creator can have. I used to like this game, believe me, but the more I played and thought about it the less it clicked for me. My opinion is indeed different from the norm but that doesn't mean I developed it out of a desire to be different for the sake of it, or because I thought it would get me more clicks or something. There's a lot of other stuff I should be doing with this channel if I cared about that lol
My disliking of this game has very little to do with the literal narrative, a disproportionate amount to how much of the video is about it. This is a necessary evil as it takes the longest to talk about, but it's not the focus of the video, only a stepping stone to a bigger point later. My dislike of this game goes beyond the literal narrative, just as your enjoyment of it does. I find all of the comments tackling my discussion of the literal narrative a little strange, as it signals to me that either the commenter didn't watch the rest of the video or just assumed that was all I was going to talk about.
Hey, you know what this looks like? Looks like Pumpkin Hill!
I ain’t gonna let it get to me, I’m just gonna creep
After you find out Riden was a child soilder the vr syarts to wig out cause hes breaking from the player at that point, only completely at the end with the dogtags
Also it's the AI telling you to turn off the game, It doesn't feel like that's the side that I should be listening too