Marvin and Sakashima: How they ACTUALLY work... - MTG Rules - Duskmourn
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- Опубліковано 22 вер 2024
- Recently a popular MTG UA-camr said that Marvin, Murderous Mimic breaks the game and causes a rules problem that is apparently not solved yet and there isn’t a definitive answer yet, but I’m here to break it to you that Marvin does not break the game, there is no rules problem and yes, there is a definitive answer here. Let me explain.
Thanks for watching!
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SMALL CORRECTION:
I was under the impression Sakashima would get their 'bounce' ability during Layer 6 - Adding and Removing abilities, which is why I didn't believe Marvin would get a copy of that ability. This is *incorrect* .
Sakashima gets their 'bounce' ability during Layer 1 - Copy effects. In which case, Marvin *would* have a copy of Sakashima's 'bounce' ability (so then Sakashima would have *two* instances of their bounce ability).
707.9a Some copy effects cause the copy to gain an ability as part of the copying process. This ability becomes part of the copiable values for the copy, along with any other abilities that were copied.
Also to the people asking why I was using Llanowar Elves as the example, as it doesn't really 'do' anything here, it was the easiest and simplest activated ability I could think of to try and make the explanation a bit clearer.
If only there was a rule irl that stopped ME from forming a dependency loop. 😢
"When you have mixed feelings about something and you're stuck in a dependency loop, apply them in Timestamp order. " 😂
Layers is such a crazy logic hiding in the background you wouldn’t realize while just playing the game.
Layers literally impact every single game, unless of course you're only playing with Vanilla creatures and no buff/debuff spells.
That's why it's my mission to dispell the "difficulty" around them 🙂
New player: Man, this The Stack thing can get pretty full on. But I think I'm slowly wrapping my head around triggers and priority! I remember when I thought all this stuff was hard!
Veteran: Mate, The Stack and Priority are merely henchman. There's this guy, Tony '7-Layers', that pulls all the levers. Rumor has it he sits on a throne made of artist-proof Humility's.'
My friend watched that misinforrmation video and had to go through the logic of this.
But I am thankful that you made a video that makes clearing up the issue so well
Hell Yeah. We love Layers!
😋
Thank you for this clear and thorough explanation of this interaction! (You'll be happy to know this is the top result for a Google search of Duskmourn rules.)
613.2a Layer 1a: Copiable effects are applied. This includes copy effects (see rule 707,
“Copying
Objects”)
707.9a Some copy effects cause the copy to gain an ability as part of the copying process. This
ability becomes part of the copiable values for the copy, along with any other abilities that were
copied.
I’m pretty sure that these rules together mean that Sakashima’s ability is granted to it on layer 1 so Marvin should have it
That's probably right. In which case, Marvin gains a copy of the Sakashima ability, and then Sakashima gains a second copy of its own ability. Neat. :)
I belive that would be correct, its the same reasoning as why Kudo, king among bears keeps his P/T moddifing abilities while dress down is on the field due to it also containing a type-modifying abilites which is on a layer above ability removing effects
This makes sense. Definitely seems like the ability addition is part of the copy here so it makes sense to be one thing
You're right. I missed that. I will make a correction now.
Folk always underestimate the incredible depth to which the rules of MTG have been plumbed, explored and explained, I think it's because 99% of the game can be played without this kind of comprehensive (haha that's a pun, see?) knowledge of the inner workings, it's a testament to both the overall design of the game being able to handle these kinds of corner cases, as well as the skill in designing the sets themselves to not normally require this depth of rules explanation.
The fact there's over 26k unique cards and you can take any combination of them to any Seasoned Judged and they'll both come to the same answer is a testament to this.
I never thought of Kraaj as an example of Marvin's ability. I'd thought it was entirely new.
There was an explanation for how this works in the reddit spoiler for this card. Took a little while for someone to answer with real rules so it is a bit deep in there, but it is in there. The answer to this question like 12 hours after the card was spoiled.
Also Experiment Kraj answered this over a decade ago 😂
@@attackoncardboard oh cool, I was wondering what other examples of it there might be. Good vid BTW.
Actually wondering why Marvin didn't end up with the sakashima ability to be returned to hand, is that just how the layers would break down? He gains the ability after Marvin has already checked and that's why he didn't get it?
Ya I think that is just a misrepresentation in the video. The Marvin would actually have the 4 mana return to hand and the tap effect. I think he glossed over that since it wasn't what the "problem" was about. Technically the way it actually works is every new instance of an ability is checked to see if it causes this loop. If it does it defaults to the first marven getting one instance and the second getting 2 and each ability is set as a pyramid with the origin of the ability being top then it goes by the timestamp so for sakashima he would be at the top and thus removed from the timestamp
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
@attackoncardboard I feel very odd having noticed a rules error in your video having personally, very little knowledge of the 600+ pages of rules. Your videos work
So in that case, Sakashima would also have two instances of that ability right?
Nice explanation! I think the sum-up sentence is something like "when a dependency loop forms, f*** that s***", which is actually really good. A recent rules thing that came up for me was on the card Come Back Wrong (from this set), where I found out that moving the Commander from [a zone] back to the command zone is a state based action that can only happen when you have priority. I don't know how, but I'm sure somebody must have broken this before now 🤔
Magic has a funny relationships with infinite loops, sometimes they draw the game and that's that. Sometimes the rules say, ok, you've shown your loop, now make a different choice (Amalia + Wildgrowth) and in the case of Layers, the rules are like, Nope. Not dealing with that. Shut it down. 😂
Season of the Witch & Silent Arbiter from what I have seen. The creatures that get destroyed from Season of the Witch are determined by the judge. Please make a video about this interaction.
Oh this one is easy. Silent Arbiter doesn't stop which creatures are able to attack, it just limits how many creatures you can attack with. Assuming you have 4 creatures that could normally attack (no summoning sickness, no defender, etc.) you pick one to attack and the other three are destroyed.
@JudgingFTW has an excellent video on this. It's DDR#571
I love the magic rules. I get really frustrated when I'm playing board games and situations come up that aren't covered in the rules. But wizards has literally everything covered and it brings me so much joy to always find an answer in the rules. Sometimes I actually read the rules just for fun because of it xD
Attack on Cards doing the lords work dispelling the mysteries of Layers... and we love him for it! - James
Thank you. I appreciate your correction and good research.
Fun fact, Marvin and sakashima entering at the same time means sakashima can’t become a copy of Marvin. So you don’t really have to worry about choosing time stamp order in that situation
Anytime I mention timestamps in a video, someone *always* comments, "What about if they enter at the same time" 😂
techniacally not impossible: you could have a Marvin in play, then put a second Marvin and Sakashima the Impostor are being put play at the same time, prior to entering Sakashima becomes a copy of the first Marvin, and then finally choose to keep the second Marvin as the legendary rule kicks in. Both the Marvin in play and the Sakashima would have entered at the same time.
Obviously Psychic Paper is more of a "real card", but you could in theory get around the name issue with name stickers, also.
I must say, magic is a crazy difficult game to understand.... Sometimes I have to watch this videos 3x to comprehend what is going on. Love your videos!
Thank you so much for explaining this. Your awesome!!!!!
The hero we needed
EDIT: I didn't see the pinned comment... whoops lol 😅
Fun fact: Sakashima's ability-giving effect is actually not applied in layer 6, as it is a copying exception. As such, it's applied in layer 1 (the copy layer), according to rule 707.9a! This not only means that the Marvin will actually have an instance of Sakashima's ability and that Sakashima will have two instances, it also means that you don't have to play another creature with an activated ability to see this interaction play out!
Yeah, that was my mistake 😅 was so zoned in on the abilities side of things, I didn't double check the copy rules 🤦
Ty, I was discussing about this for a long day! Clear answer. 🙏🙏
Sorry if this has already been commented but according the mtg judge chat, Marvin would have sakashimas bounce ability since it’s gained in lair 1.
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
@@attackoncardboard thank you for acknowledging it! I just saw your pinned comment. I asked the same thing in the judge chat after I saw the other creators video and I originally had the same thought process as you.
The actual funny thing here is that since sakashima gets the ability in lair 1, and we assume the sakashima has the later timestamp, that means it will actually get its own bounce ability again from Marvin.
@@Scarveilix I do try to be as thorough as possible with these videos, I've been working and researching this script all week, and this key piece of rules text clearly slipped passed me. Thankfully the vast majority and the main point of this video is still correct, so I believe a pinned correction and replying to comments should suffice here :)
And yes! That's right too!
at 7:13 would the original Marvin not also have Sakashima's bounce ability?
Idk the card is named in the ability. If Marvin activated it it would then just bounce the sakashima?
@@l0lan00b3 Not how it works. Any use of a cardname in text actually means "This card" and auto updates if the card gets new names. The only exception is on cards that say "cards/creatures/whathaveyou named cardname"
Sakashima doesn't have the bounce ability innately. It grants it to itself in the same layer as Marvin gains activated abilities.
Therefore the if Marvin has the earlier timestamp, when Marvin checks for activated abilities, Sakashima doesn't have any yet
@@ocirMZ No, Sakashima gives itself the bounce ability in layer 1, as a copy effect. So by the time Marvin copies abilities in layer 6, Sakashima already has that ability.
@@FM-96 true, the ability granting is still part of the "except" clause and will therefore be added in layer 1
I'm gonna take a stab at this before watching fully.
Ability adding occurs in Layer 6 so when the layers checks get there both cards look at all other cards with activated abilities FIRST. Neither Marvin nor Sakashima have an activated ability at this point so they don't see anything. Then, after all activated abilities have been accounted for, they gain all of those abilities (and Sakashima gains its return to hand ability at this point so Marvin doesn't see that either) and we move on to Layer 7. Layers don't recursively check within a layer to see if changes have occurred, they only check top-down once. So the next time state-based actions would occur and the layers need to be re-evaluated for changes we start at the top and work down.
Close, but I forgot about Timestamps (and, technically, dependencies but that didn't actually apply)
Also Layers don't wait for State based actions. They're applied instantly and constantly 🙂 Good effort though 👏
interestingly because sakashima the imposter has a different name you could use multiple copies of marvin to have the imposter have X copies of activated abilities as opposed to having 2^x copies of abilites with having multiple marvins with different names. and fun stuff happens when you turn planeswalkers into creatures i suppose
@@Nilmur2 even more when you then use Helm of the Host to create a non-legendary token copy of said planeswalker ^^
From the intro alone, I knew it had to be layers…
"So where did that bring you? Back to me." - Layers
Ape escape music for the win
I think I have a fun card to suggest!
I feel like they need to hand out a summary card, or put it into the prerelease booklet, of the layers orders/application at every prerelease. Then over time everyone will become more comfortable understanding the layers through osmosis. e.g. like what they've done for mana curve.
It's a bit strange that original Marvin doesn't get the bounce ability from Sakashima. Would that remain true for other abilities granted to Sakashima specifically? If I equipped a Paradise Mantle to it so that it was now able to tap for mana, would Marvin gain that ability?
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
Anytime someone mentions Layers, my eyes glass over.
Could you do a video on cloning? Specifically covering weird interactions like Orvar and Mordenkainen's Polymorph effects.
Great idea! I'll add it to my notes. I made a small mistake in this video about the cloning process, so I still have things to learn too :D
@@attackoncardboard also I saw a content creator post about using Satya, Aetherflux Genius to copy manlands that have been activated. I'm not sure if the same rules apply to both scenarios due to them occurring on different layers
@@Rocjhead118 I dont see any issue here. If Satya, Aetherflux Genius created copies of the manlands, they would just enter as tapped lands (not creatures and not attacking).
@@attackoncardboard I wasn't sure if the copies would stay as creatures. Thanks!
My question about Marvin/Sakashima wasn't answered here and I assume that it works by removing the abilities from both.
But if Llanowar Elves gets removed after Sakashima and Marvin have seen each other with those activated abilities, do either of them keep Llanowar Elves abilities because they SEE each other with them when Llanowar elves dies, or does the ability get removed from both?
Layers are updated constantly and instantly. If Elves leave play, Marvin and Sakashima won't have that ability
I really appreciate all the work you put into these videos. It's really cool that a game as complex as Magic has readily available answers to rules questions.
Some other TCGs I play (I'm looking at you, Yugioh) just give you a ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ when you need to know how cards interact. It's very frustrating to worry about your cards interacting the same way from event to event.
One question - under this interaction (with Marvin first, then Sakashima), does Marvin also gain Sakashima's self-bounce ability? (and would Sakashima then gain a second copy of that ability, or has that dependency already been applied to her once so wouldn't run through again?)
I think it’s a continuous effect that gives Sakashima his ability. That means if Sakashima gains all his abilities after Marvin then Marvin will not gain the Sakashima bounce to hand ability.
@@bertdog2119 Ah. So if Sakashima enters but doesn't copy anything, it wouldn't gain its own self-bounce ability at all, because that is a part of the copy ability's continuous effect and not a separate ability that the creature just has?
@@danpearman270 I believe that is true, yes
@bertdog2119 Does Sakashima gain 'all' his abilities after Marvin, or does he gain all the abilities that are a consequence of being a copy of Marvin after Marvin? Because the bounce ability seems to be a replacement effect for it's copying ability which happens on layer one.
@@bertdog2119The difference is that Sakashima gains that particular ability as part of it's copy effect which applies in layer 1. Both the ability stealing effects apply on layer 4, which will be after Sakashima has gained the ability. Marvin will get a copy of it, which Sakashima will see as it applies it's Marvin effect afterwards.
707.9a: Some copy effects cause the copy to gain an ability as part of the copying process. This ability becomes part of the copiable values for the copy, along with any other abilities that were copied.
Edit: layer 6 is abilities not 4.
I’m confused on why the original doesn’t get sakashimas bounce effect because it should update Marvin with a new ability right nvrmind saw pinned comment
Could you explain the interactions between a Theros Gods(devotion matters) and the enchantment creatures that said when this creature dies return it to the battlefield, but it is not a creature.
So, spoiler alert: There's not really much of an interaction. In all ways relevant to this particular interaction, they are essentially the same ability, as they both remove the creature card type from an enchantment creature. However, I will still explain it in the spirit of the question.
Let's say you use Mirrormade, copying Enduring Innocence, then that copy dies, you can return the Mirrormade with the death trigger, and have it enter as a copy of Heliod. That will give you a permanent affected by both abilities (which is the only way these can interact).
Since they both apply in Layer 4, we use timestamps. In this case, the Enduring Innocence ability will have a timestamp at the time it triggered, while the Heliod ability has a timestamp at the time it entered. So Enduring Innocence will always have an earlier timestamp and apply first.
Enduring Innocence says "This card is now an enchantment (and no other types)." Then Heliod says "This permanent stops being a creature", while it already is not a creature.
Layers break my brain 🤕
So, suppose I control Rishkar, Peema Renegade with a counter on it and Marvin without a counter on it. In that case, it's also relevant which permanent entered the battlefield first while determining whether Marivn can tap for green or not?
Projenitor mimic copies an enchantment that Bello, bard of the brambles, is currently making a creature. Progenitor mimic would copy the enchantment, but still be a creature on your turn. If bello leaves, projenitor will no longer be a creature on your turn. Does it's effect do nothing?
Oh hey, a dependency loop that I could reasonably see occurring in a real game.
Also, remember fellow nerds, layers are nothing compared to replacement effects, linked abilities, and the absolute eldritch nightmare that is combat.
If a new ability adding effect comes into play then Marvin will depend on it and it will wedge itself in before him, right? Doesn't this apply to Sakashima's return to hand ability as well since it is from a different ability than the one in the delendency loop?
wouldnt marvin also have sakishimas ability?
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
Doesn't really matter much cause either way you end up with using timestamp order, but isn't there no dependency between the two at all? Neither ability is changing the text or existence of the others' ability, they both have "this gains all activated abilities..." applying one doesn't change the effect of the other right?
Applying one does change the other though? If Marvin gains a new activated ability, so will Sakashima. If Sakashima gains a new activated ability, so will Marvin. Theyre both dependent on each other.
Sakashima gaining an ability would change what abilities Marvin gains, and vice versa. So they are dependent.
Shouldn’t Marvin gain Sakashima’s bounce ability? Or am I missing something about the timing?
Yes. That one will get stolen specifically because it's granted as part of the copy effect rather than as a normal ability granting effect. That means it happens on layer 1, which is before either of the Marvin ability stealing effects are applied on layer 4. Marvin will then copy that ability, then Sakashima will copy it back leading to them having 1 and 2 instances of it respectively.
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
I had one involving ugin's mastery and perilous vault.
Situation: ugin's mastery manifests the top card of the library, which happens to be perilous vault
Attack with creatures totalling 6 power or greater
Ugin's mastery triggers, turning up a face down creature, targeting the manifested perilous vault(perilous vault has summoning sickness, and didnt attack.)
Does perilous vault stay as a manifested creature without its ability? Or does it become perilous vault and regain its activated ability?
It just becomes perilous vault
It becomes just a regular Perilous Vault. Ugin's Mastery bypassed the normal restriction imposed on manifested/cloaked cards (IE, You can only turn them face up if theyre a creature by paying it's mana cost).
@attackoncardboard ok, just wanted to make sure since a couple friends and I had debated about it.
The wording of Ugin's mastery threw us all off, since it says "face down creature" and we were arguing about whether or not the manifested card, being a nonland permanent, would stay on the battlefield and become itself or just be a revealed face down creature
What if Marvin and an experiment kraj enter simultaneously(say from Brago) and both enter with +1/+1 counters( say from grumgully). Did then having the same time stamp make things harder
Soo...why Sakashima's activated return effect isn't copied on Marvin?? Marvin would see this ability manifest on Sakashima, wouldn't it? I don't see a timing exception on Marvin's text :/
That one will get stolen specifically because it's granted as part of the copy effect rather than as a normal ability granting effect. That means it happens on layer 1, which is before either of the Marvin ability stealing effects are applied on layer 4. Marvin will then copy that ability, then Sakashima will copy it back leading to them having 1 and 2 instances of it respectively.
@@seandun7083 I have to say @attackoncardboard should have clarified this, seeing as many people left confused about this ability getting copied in the comments, and that the whole video was about copying effects!
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
Hi AoC!
I asked a group of judges that couldn’t give me an unique answer, they didn’t agree on it, so I came to you,
The card is Bestial Fury, it has an unique updated oracle text regarding a trigger with a draw:
“When it ETB’s, draw a card at THE BEGINNING OF THE NEXT TURN’S UPKEEP”
Cool, what if the next turn has more than one upkeep?
Note that the text is different from the regular “draw a card at the beginning of the next upkeep”
Bestial fury has this unique text
Would you help me answer this question? Thanks!
That is actually the standard templating for those kinds of effects. Mishra's Bauble, Portent, Arcane Denial, and tons of other similar cards also use it.
Conversely, I think Archangel Avacyn is the only one that uses "at the beginning of the next upkeep", though plenty use that for other parts of the turn.
That being said, while I would think it only triggers on the first upkeep, I've had a hard time finding anything that clarifies it.
It should only trigger once.
603.7b A delayed triggered ability will trigger only once-the next time its trigger event occurs-unless it has a stated duration, such as “this turn.” If its trigger event occurs more than once simultaneously and the ability doesn’t have a stated duration, the controller of the delayed triggered ability chooses which event causes the ability to trigger.
so to my understanding with 1 Marvin IT would lose the ability of llanowar elves once the llanowar elves leaves the Battlefield. Does that mean in this case it wouldnt lose that ability. Also are there any crazy Combos with that.
Layers are checked constantly. So as soon as the Elves leave play, Marvin (and Sakashima) would lose that ability.
If you had a Horseshoe Crab and anything ability that taps for 2 mana, that's infinite mana right there.
8:23 That's a *_really_* creepy threat
would marvin not gain activated abilities if they are granted? like the sakashima bounce, what about paradise mantle?
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
In the case of Paradise Mantle, it depends on Timestamps. If Marvin comes into play *after* the Mantle has been equipped, yes. The creature will gain that ability before Marvin copies everything. If Marvin is in play first, they apply their copy effect *before* Mantle gives the creature the activated ability.
Could you explain whether or not Marvin or Sakashima would still have the activated ability from the Llanowar Elves if the elf card leaves the battlefield? (Or if a token Copy of Marvin is made; or if it were Blinked or Phased out for example, and the board state changed before it returned?) This may seem like a rookie question but I think even before Marvin there was already a lot of confusion about copies, tokens, clones, and shapeshifer/changeling. Imagine you're 12 years old for example, and there's no Judge around just your know-it-all pal who in fact doesnt know it all...😂
Marvin (and therefore Sakashima) continously checks what's on the board, if not then it couldn't gain the abilities of creatures entering after it, which also means that if creatures leave the battlefield, their abilities will be lost, and as such, blinking Marvin won't change anything on which abilities he have.
But he'll count as a new objet toward abilities with a limited number of uses and will have regain summoning sickness preventing him from using abilities requiring to tap.
OK here's a question! What if! You have Marvin out! Then storm the festival hitting Marvin and saka! You keep the new Marvin leaving the Marvin and saka being played at the same exact time...(saka targeted the old marvin to copy)
Can you apply the layers a different way?
It would basically just be reversed. Sakashima will have 1 set of abilities, Marvin would have 2.
@@attackoncardboard makes sense...dope cards pretty cool ngl
I just want to point out that Marvin text applies exclusively to a card named Marvin... When Sakashima copies it and retain the name, the text shouldn't apply to him (only if the text was 'this creature...'
That's not correct.
CR201.5. Text that refers to the object it’s on by name means just that particular object and not any other objects with that name, regardless of any name changes caused by game effects.
And
201.5b If an ability of an object refers to that object by name, and an object with a different name gains that ability, each instance of the first name in the gained ability that refers to the first object by name should be treated as the second name.
First video I see in the suggested shorts is a VeggieWagon video lol
😅
When they tell you mtg is a simple game.
Yes, they don't break the game, they break my brain :v
What happen if marvin is copy Marshail the pretender ability?
When do special actions take place in the middle of card text ?(asking for "come back wrong" killing an commander)
Special Actions are actions players can take like playing lands or morphing cards, which they can (normally, rooms for example have special restrictions) do as long as the have priority, but don't use the stack.
You are probably talking about "State Based Actions", which is what's relevant for "come back wrong", which is stuff like "creature that has been dealt lethal damage dies" or "players can put a commander that has been placed into graveyard or exile [...] Into the command zone".
SBA's are always checked just before a player gains priority, and in the cleanup step at the end of the turn, where the players normally wouldn't get priority.
Since players don't get priority while a spell or ability is resolving, SBAs are also not checked.
The next time SBA are checked after a "come back wrong" targeting a commander started resolving (as long as no other tomfoolery is afoot like a "rest in peace"), the game will see the commander sitting on the battlefield (just on the enemies side), and not in the graveyard or exile, and therefore not perform any SBA moving it into the command zone.
This is especially confusing due to triggered abilities. A triggered abilities starts with "whenever", "when" or "at". Triggered abilities can and will trigger whenever the event occurs, even if no player has priority, but the game will wait until a player has priority before getting put on the stack.
Example: you have a commander, a blood artist (has "whenever a creature dies" triggered ability) and the opponent casts "come back wrong" on your commander.
1. "Destroy target creature -> commander is destroyed and put into the graveyard
2. Blood artist triggers and is waiting to be out onto the stack
3. If it is put into the graveyard this way (checks the creature actually ended up there, and wasn't for example indestructible, or got put into exile due to the replacement effect of rest in peace)
4. Return it to the battlefield -> commander is returned to the battlefield
5. Sacrifice it at the beginning of your next end step -> create a delayed trigger
6. Spell is done resolving, which means the active player would gain priority next
7. SBA is checked. Commander is on the battlefield, so no SBA necessary
8. Blood artist ability is put on the stack
9. SBA is checked again, but still nothing necessary
10. Active player gets priority
If "come back wrong" read "when it dies ...", it would actually create two delayed triggers, and the spell would finish resolving after the creature was destroyed and the delayed triggers where created. In that case, you could move the commander into the command zone before the trigger steals the it
While the other comment is correct, it is worth noting that Replacement Effects can happen during the middle of a spell. For example, if you were to Chaos Warp my Commander, I can choose to put it in the Command Zone instead (during the resolution of the spell).
so the original marvin won't have the sakashima activated ability? That feels counterintuitive
It will because they are created as part of the copy effect rather than an ability granting effect. That means Sakashima gets it's bounce ability during layer 1 while they both steal abilities via Marvin's effect during layer 4.
@@seandun7083 Layer 4 is later than layer 1 right, as in, copy applies before ability granting, thus it should copy.
Similarly to Marvin copying something from a clone of elvish mystic.
@@jaceg810 yes (though I messed up a bit since layer 6 is actually the ability granting 1. L4 is type changing. That shouldn't change things here though).
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
wait so no cost tap only effects are not activated effects? sorry if this is a dumb question, but now i am confused
Anything with (cost):[result] is an activated ability. It doesn't have to include a tap symbol.
NVM, just the start was formulated a bit weird
Do you even need the elf in this example? Sakshima already has an activated ability for Marvin to copy.
I DO actually have a question about Rendmaw. If you have a mycosynth lattice in play will playing a land that does not have two types cause him to trigger. I'm aware that they would trigger an etb effect like panharmonicon. However, I'm uncertain about the specific interactions about the special game action of playing a land for turn. Does the game need to KNOW the land in your hand has two types, or will it having two types once it's entered the battlefield be enough? I partially blame wotc for lumping both triggers into the somewhat murky "play" action.
I hope you can go into this; because, it'll decide if a mycosynth lattice will be a good addition or not.
Mycosynth lattice only add the artifact card type to permanents, i.e. cards and tokens on the battlefield, so when you play a land that doesn't natively have a second card type it won't trigger Rendmaw.
@@Sephiroth517 do you know the relevant rules that apply to this interaction? Everything that isn't a land needs to enter the stack, where it would be checked for the correct typing. Lands go from a hidden zone where their characteristics aren't known, onto the battlefield where they will be artifact lands.
@@raze667 cards in your hands are not hidden to the game mechanics, nothing is...
Anytime you play a card, Rendmaw ability will trigger to check it's types to see if he create a token and put it on the stack, or not.
That happens as soon as you play the card, before the card itself enters the stack, if it's a spell (like the "when you cast this spell" effects on Ulamog), or directly enters the battlefield if it's a land.
And so, before the lattice indeed add artifact to the card's existing types.
@@Sephiroth517 again do you have relevant rules for that? "When you cast" is when the spell is on the stack not before. Otherwise anything that would trigger would be under the spell. There is no stack to delay the land from already being an artifact once it hits the battlefield. Also there absolutely are hidden information zones. Every card in your deck is nothing but a"card" until is it revealed.
I have a question: if I attach blade of selves (that give myriad) to clavileno, first of the blessed, and I ave 3 opponent can i create 2 vampire demon token every combat phase (mine obviusly)?
No
You cannot make it so the targets are the clavileno tokens
Also the tokens dies to legend rule before the ability resolves
You must put both the Clavileno and Blade of Selves triggers onto the stack before either can resolve. Because Clavileno targets, you must choose what it hits as you put it onto the stack meaning the copies won't yet have been created.
The copies won't get attack triggers since they come into play already attacking.
While a Redirect would normally let you change the target of Clavileno's ability after the tokens were made so that it would target them, they will immediately die to legend rule so you can't do that unless you keep one of them and let the original die.
So what I’m gathering from this is that if someone plays those two cards together, we kick them off the table and continue the game as though they didn’t exist. Got it.
Learning about Layers, Timestamps and Dependencies is important for MTG. They're used in every single game! (Unless you're just playing with vanilla creatures and nothing else 😂)
Wouldn’t sakashima still have the name marvin in the text box? Like the name is sakashima but the abilities wouldn’t change right?
Nope.
CR201.5. Text that refers to the object it’s on by name means just that particular object and not any other objects with that name, regardless of any name changes caused by game effects.
And
CR201.5b If an ability of an object refers to that object by name, and an object with a different name gains that ability, each instance of the first name in the gained ability that refers to the first object by name should be treated as the second name.
So il be honest, if I read this 2 cards with my current lack of knowledge about layers...i still dont get the conclusion is just its a infinite spiral...even if it was i would instead try to find how "activate onces per " actually works rather than this spefic rabbit hole as having infinite Tap to add 1 mana doesn't do jack shit by itself.
would marvin not get the sakashima ability of bounce itself?
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
You cant have them enter at the same time? Sakashima need Marvin on the board to become a copy or am i wrong.
You're right that if Sakashima and Marvin enter at the same time, Sakashima can't copy Marvin.
I only mention that piece of knowledge about Timestamps because someone always asks in the comments when I mention them
Still kind of new to Magic, but why does it matter if he has extra tap for green if you can only tap him for 1 ability at a time?
Most abilities, including Llanowar Elves tap ability, will not care about having multiple copies of the ability. So that doesn't really matter.
However, there are situations where it does matter: For example, Beledros Witherbloom can only be activated once, but you can use it multiple times if you have multiple instances of the ability.
For the video, Llanowar Elves had the simplest and clearest activated ability I could think of. The video was already complicated enough, I didn't want to muddy the waters with any more confusion.
You can replace that ability with anything else.
Okay, my follow up question would be does having multiple copies of an activated ability with a once per turn clause let you use it multiple times per turn. Because personally the way I read it the once per turn restriction would effect the ability as a whole not each instance of it independent. But also I don’t know the rules and am dumb so.
The "once per turn" clause is tied to the individual ability. So if you had Beledros Witherbloom in play instead of Llanowar Elves, Sakashima could activate *each* instance of that ability once.
Would this make Sakashima tap for 2 green mana as an end result?
No, they would have two separate instances of T: add G
Why is it always Layers...
Read the cards (watch a video, read the rules and call a judge) explains the card.
I will say I think "reading the card explains teh card" was always a fandom joke and not in any way an actual thought from WotC. Otherwise they wouldn't have a rule book that could kill you if it fell of a shelf onto your head.
@@jacobbrown9894 for sure, just adding a () to the joke
@@jacobbrown9894 Going to nitpick you there but its only 296 pages long in its PDF and DOCX formats as of September 2024.
So if it was translated into a A4 sized book first the physical page amount would be halved (printing on bothsides) into 148 pages so it is not that thick of a book.
if i eat my opponents commander, can they still "use it" or do i "win"?
In a tournament setting, realistically, you would likely get a Match Loss or a DQ under IPG 4.2 Unsporting Conduct - Major 😅 otherwise I can see you just getting banned from the store/play group.
I don't see how this breaks the game at all.
Let's assume for a second that they both have infinite copies of the same activated ability. Even with a circumvention of an effect of a smallnumber of cards, the fact is still incredibly niche.
Marvin, Murderous Mimic is my new Roaming Throne. Once you understand the rules of the game, both cards become not that good. (Not that RT is a bad card, just the rules are funky)
You cannot copy them more they are legendary.
so whats the point of stating it has multiple copies of tap for green? in game i dont see this doing anything other than just saying this is what it has cause im a rules stickler. it still only can tap for one green no matter how many copies of that ability it has attached to itself
For that one there isn't much point, but some abilities (like Wall of Roots) can only be activated once each turn. In that case, each instance of it is tracked separately so you can activate each of them once per turn.
It was the simplest and easiest activated ability to demonstration this interaction. You can replace it with whatever you like :)
@@seandun7083 thanks that makes more sense to why thats relevant. i looked up and steel hellkite, and erstwhile trooper being relevant in this
Is that relevant? You do not get infinite mana from this example, only infinite options to produce one Green Mana. Or am I wrong?
You can swap Llanowar Elves for literally any other activated ability. It was just the simplest one to use for the example
What channel said that it broke the game?
At the 0:01 mark, in the bottom left, there is a hint as to which channel it is 😅
@@attackoncardboard or you could just say who it was
@@attackoncardboardbut isn't the wagon supposed to be made of vegetables?
@@Atmapalazzo 😂
In what way is this broken? Even if you have infinite tap for green abilities, you still only get one green per tap. What I want to know is this: can you use Marvin's ability to return Sakashima to your hand?
Marvin stealing Sakashima's bounce ability means you can use the copied ability to return Marvin to it's owner's hand. When a card uses it's own name, if it doesn't say something like "a creature named ", then it just means "this card".
For a "tap: add G" ability it's indeed useless to know since it makes no difference.
But for abilities which you can only use "once per turn" (say, 1 : draw a card, only once per turn) it's important to actually know how many time you get it, because even tough the text of the ability would be the same, each iteration count as a separate ability which can be used once.
Llanowar Elves was just the cleanest and simplest activated ability I could think of. The point of the video is to show the interaction between Marvin and Sakashima, not which are the best cards for them. That's probably a separate video.
Rules have gotten so complicated that one needs to go into a rabbit hole of rules madness just to arrive at the most LOGICAL and INTUITIVE conclusion, that both permanents have both abilities at the same time and that's it. I have been playing magic most of my life and I hate this needlesly complicated aspect of the game. When games are extremely non-intuitive as this shows, it's a horrendous design flaw, and it should be addressed.
Point of order, they don't have both abilities at the same time. One will have one set, the other will have two sets.
Judges always believe who calls them over first always make sure your the first one and if not request for your own judge cause that one will 100% be biased against you
How so?
@@attackoncardboard cause you wont call someone out for lying
@@attackoncardboard and if you do, then its always the guy you didnt get called over for
@@attackoncardboard its like the other guy has a lawyer and you dont
Can you give me an example situation?
A Judges job is to investigate a situation. Judges will call people out for lying. There's no shortage of players getting DQ'ed for doing so.
Popular UA-camr is Veggiwagon...isn't it?
🤔👀
Why isnt this obvious to everyone?
Not everyone knows the rules as well as you?
Like theres no such thing as playing with intent in mtg when there really fucking should be, but if there was how would scum begs beable to play? Cause if you dont know magic is a game of scum begs
I don't see the issue with the card? Why are so many MTG players so dramatic?
probably clickbait
Broken as in literally does not have rules to govern how this interaction should work, not broken like is op.
@@Rocjhead118 It’s neither version of broken though, as this video explains
@@brady3126 correct, but when it was called "broken" in the intro, it was used in the rules not power level meaning
That's why I made the video. The other video has nearly 100k views with those 3 statements and they're not true at all 😅
Just hear me out. Instead of talking about Layers, we could just say that the game is broken with an unsolvable question and talk about literally anything else!
What was the UA-camr video that said otherwise? I feel like I saw it, or read it on Reddit, but can't find it.
If you search "MTG Marvin", there's a video with a thumbnail that's an outright lie 😂
@@attackoncardboard Found the one I saw, which was from Veggiewagon. The answer was in the comments there about timestamp and an example of another existing creature.
Not sure if that's the one you're talking about, but the thumbnail would be a lie as it claims judges don't know.
At 3:51 you made this worse not better by photoshopping Marvin's art onto Sakashima rather than actually mocking up what Sakashima would look like after it becomes a copy of Marvin. For example it would have Sakashima's name but Marvin's P/T and CMC and Typing... but it would also have a mix of card text from both cards, and Marvin's flavor text.
This may seem pedantic but since you're explaining how Layers work (ie instantly and continuously) it would be useful to SHOW not tell.
Thanks for making this video. It shouldn't be as hard as some other MTG UA-camrs make it to explain the rules already anticipate and avoid recursive infinite loops like the (false) one alleged between Marvin and Sakashima. This is as you explain, basically Fake News.
Which by the way would be a great name for a counterspell or triggered ability. Ha.
Thanks for your feedback. I do really appreciate constructive criticism. I totally could have done that, but I think I was sick of Photoshop and editing at that point 😅
I've got my Beginners Guide to Layers remake in the works, so I'll be sure to try and make things as clear as possible for that.
2:27 but that doesn't matter - it's like if you give a creature flying, and then flying again, it doesn't matter. Any creature could have eight million instances of "T: add G" but it wouldn't matter.
It doesn't really matter for a tap ability, but as the original video stating it "breaks the game" explained, and as Attack on Cardboard explained in the video, having multiple copies of certain abilities DOES matter.
Beledros Witherbloom is the example used here, but I don't think it's a good example. It's ability can only be activated once per turn. With multiple instances of the ability, it could be activated multiple times. But it's an ability with a cost of 10 life, there's only so far you could take it.
A good example of how this might be broken is the card Avizoa, which has a 0 mana activated ability that reads "Avizoa gets +2/+2 until end of turn. You skip your next untap step. Activate only once each turn." If the dependency loop was allowed to continue between Marvin and Sakashima, this ability would stack infinitely on both Marvin and Sakashima. Suddenly, this ability turns from a small combat buff with a pretty bad downside into an infinitely activatable combat buff in exchange for your next however many untap steps (basically, an infinite combo piece and probably a kill on your opponent)
Hope this explains why the rule definitely does matter.
@@meekumanu I still think the card is fine, a lot of this has to do with what-ifs. I guess in Commander, if you're trying to break the game, then I'm sure you could do it, but if you're just playing Standard or drafting or whatever, you'll be fine. If the card actually does end up breaking formats, then so be it, but I doubt that will happen.
It would matter for something like Wall of Roots that says "activate only once per turn". Multiple instances of it would have separate once per turn restrictions. There are plenty of other ways to combo with this anyways though.
The important part is that the rules are in fact resilient enough to handle this situation pretty easily. Experiment Kraj has been around with a similar effect for about 18 years after all.
While I understand the Llanowar Elves ability is redundant here, the reason I used it was because it was the simplest and cleanest activated ability I could use for the example. You can literally replace that ability with anything else.