SMALL CORRECTION: I was under the impression Sakashima would get their 'bounce' ability during Layer 6 - Adding and Removing abilities, which is why I didn't believe Marvin would get a copy of that ability. This is *incorrect* . Sakashima gets their 'bounce' ability during Layer 1 - Copy effects. In which case, Marvin *would* have a copy of Sakashima's 'bounce' ability (so then Sakashima would have *two* instances of their bounce ability). 707.9a Some copy effects cause the copy to gain an ability as part of the copying process. This ability becomes part of the copiable values for the copy, along with any other abilities that were copied. Also to the people asking why I was using Llanowar Elves as the example, as it doesn't really 'do' anything here, it was the easiest and simplest activated ability I could think of to try and make the explanation a bit clearer.
So if I understand you tap all three for mana and you would still only have 3 mana. Gaining an additional tap add mana doesn't mean you add an additional when you tap them correct?
So just as a point, even if lets say this was not the case and there was a world we had sakashima gaining an effect on layer 6 and it wasnt from the continuous effect from Marvin, lets say using retraction helix targetting sakashima (or as you originally thought Sakashima gaining the ability to bounce). Then you actually get a dependancy forming between the ability granting effect which gives sakashima the retraction helix effect and Marvins ability, so we would always give Sakashima the retraction helix ability and then marvin would gain it and then we would give sakashima all activated abilities from Marvin (assuming that sakashima entered the battlefield after marvin and so timestamps for other things works). This doesnt seem all that important for most abilities, however there are probably some shinaigans you can do with psychic paper/stickers, quicksilver elemental, and an effect like Blade of Shared Souls.
@@harrysmith4100 In the case were you are giving some new hability to Sakashima, as in your example, it would only result in Sakashima having 2 instances of that hability and Marvin having one such instance. When the layer program is run it resets all previous states and apply them again. In your example it would mean that when you give Sakashima the ability with retraction helix the layer program would run giving sakashima it`s own ability and the helix ability and when it get to layer 6 Marvin would get sakashima's 2 abilities then sakashima would gain marvin copies of it's abilities.
Okay, I'm not as experienced a player. But I talked to my friend who is a judge, like level 0 or 1, whatever the really low one is, and I said "wouldn't it just be timestamped, Marvin has 1 copy, Sakashima has 2?" And he VEHEMENTLY disagreed. I AM VINDICATED
Layers literally impact every single game, unless of course you're only playing with Vanilla creatures and no buff/debuff spells. That's why it's my mission to dispell the "difficulty" around them 🙂
New player: Man, this The Stack thing can get pretty full on. But I think I'm slowly wrapping my head around triggers and priority! I remember when I thought all this stuff was hard! Veteran: Mate, The Stack and Priority are merely henchman. There's this guy, Tony '7-Layers', that pulls all the levers. Rumor has it he sits on a throne made of artist-proof Humility's.'
My friend watched that misinforrmation video and had to go through the logic of this. But I am thankful that you made a video that makes clearing up the issue so well
Thank you for this clear and thorough explanation of this interaction! (You'll be happy to know this is the top result for a Google search of Duskmourn rules.)
Nice explanation! I think the sum-up sentence is something like "when a dependency loop forms, f*** that s***", which is actually really good. A recent rules thing that came up for me was on the card Come Back Wrong (from this set), where I found out that moving the Commander from [a zone] back to the command zone is a state based action that can only happen when you have priority. I don't know how, but I'm sure somebody must have broken this before now 🤔
Magic has a funny relationships with infinite loops, sometimes they draw the game and that's that. Sometimes the rules say, ok, you've shown your loop, now make a different choice (Amalia + Wildgrowth) and in the case of Layers, the rules are like, Nope. Not dealing with that. Shut it down. 😂
So a small nitpick is that state based actions happen right before you put triggers on the stack, which is right before someone gets priority, but otherwise yeah. It used to be a replacement effect, but that stopped people from getting dies triggers which was obviously pretty disappointing for anyone who's Commander had one. Yeah, the answer to dependency loops is to not use dependency loops.
@@seandun7083also, nowadays it is still a replacement effect for any change of zone except battlefield to graveyard or exile, such as returning to hand
613.2a Layer 1a: Copiable effects are applied. This includes copy effects (see rule 707, “Copying Objects”) 707.9a Some copy effects cause the copy to gain an ability as part of the copying process. This ability becomes part of the copiable values for the copy, along with any other abilities that were copied. I’m pretty sure that these rules together mean that Sakashima’s ability is granted to it on layer 1 so Marvin should have it
That's probably right. In which case, Marvin gains a copy of the Sakashima ability, and then Sakashima gains a second copy of its own ability. Neat. :)
I belive that would be correct, its the same reasoning as why Kudo, king among bears keeps his P/T moddifing abilities while dress down is on the field due to it also containing a type-modifying abilites which is on a layer above ability removing effects
Folk always underestimate the incredible depth to which the rules of MTG have been plumbed, explored and explained, I think it's because 99% of the game can be played without this kind of comprehensive (haha that's a pun, see?) knowledge of the inner workings, it's a testament to both the overall design of the game being able to handle these kinds of corner cases, as well as the skill in designing the sets themselves to not normally require this depth of rules explanation.
The fact there's over 26k unique cards and you can take any combination of them to any Seasoned Judged and they'll both come to the same answer is a testament to this.
This is far more complicated than my explanation to my group using a Dauthi Voidwalker from different players on the same board. Thanks mate for the breakdown.
There was an explanation for how this works in the reddit spoiler for this card. Took a little while for someone to answer with real rules so it is a bit deep in there, but it is in there. The answer to this question like 12 hours after the card was spoiled.
I love the magic rules. I get really frustrated when I'm playing board games and situations come up that aren't covered in the rules. But wizards has literally everything covered and it brings me so much joy to always find an answer in the rules. Sometimes I actually read the rules just for fun because of it xD
I must say, magic is a crazy difficult game to understand.... Sometimes I have to watch this videos 3x to comprehend what is going on. Love your videos!
Actually wondering why Marvin didn't end up with the sakashima ability to be returned to hand, is that just how the layers would break down? He gains the ability after Marvin has already checked and that's why he didn't get it?
Ya I think that is just a misrepresentation in the video. The Marvin would actually have the 4 mana return to hand and the tap effect. I think he glossed over that since it wasn't what the "problem" was about. Technically the way it actually works is every new instance of an ability is checked to see if it causes this loop. If it does it defaults to the first marven getting one instance and the second getting 2 and each ability is set as a pyramid with the origin of the ability being top then it goes by the timestamp so for sakashima he would be at the top and thus removed from the timestamp
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
@attackoncardboard I feel very odd having noticed a rules error in your video having personally, very little knowledge of the 600+ pages of rules. Your videos work
I really appreciate all the work you put into these videos. It's really cool that a game as complex as Magic has readily available answers to rules questions. Some other TCGs I play (I'm looking at you, Yugioh) just give you a ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ when you need to know how cards interact. It's very frustrating to worry about your cards interacting the same way from event to event.
EDIT: I didn't see the pinned comment... whoops lol 😅 Fun fact: Sakashima's ability-giving effect is actually not applied in layer 6, as it is a copying exception. As such, it's applied in layer 1 (the copy layer), according to rule 707.9a! This not only means that the Marvin will actually have an instance of Sakashima's ability and that Sakashima will have two instances, it also means that you don't have to play another creature with an activated ability to see this interaction play out!
As someone who loves his experiment kraj deck, yea, as you said, not new. just having marvin and kraj would make similar fun things (assuming marvin had the +1/+1. you got to love when someone jumps the gun on something "breaking the game"
Season of the Witch & Silent Arbiter from what I have seen. The creatures that get destroyed from Season of the Witch are determined by the judge. Please make a video about this interaction.
Oh this one is easy. Silent Arbiter doesn't stop which creatures are able to attack, it just limits how many creatures you can attack with. Assuming you have 4 creatures that could normally attack (no summoning sickness, no defender, etc.) you pick one to attack and the other three are destroyed.
"Could have attacked" means that they don't suffer summoning sickness, or have haste. Siren's Call works the same. Anything that doesn't have summoning sickness, but did not attack for whatever reason, dies. Very fitting in those deep sea decks that tap down creatures or disable attackers.
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
@@attackoncardboard thank you for acknowledging it! I just saw your pinned comment. I asked the same thing in the judge chat after I saw the other creators video and I originally had the same thought process as you. The actual funny thing here is that since sakashima gets the ability in lair 1, and we assume the sakashima has the later timestamp, that means it will actually get its own bounce ability again from Marvin.
@@Scarveilix I do try to be as thorough as possible with these videos, I've been working and researching this script all week, and this key piece of rules text clearly slipped passed me. Thankfully the vast majority and the main point of this video is still correct, so I believe a pinned correction and replying to comments should suffice here :) And yes! That's right too!
You know this reminds me allot of an interaction I have in my marsil the pretender deck with quick silver elemental if use the 3lementals ability to copy the abilti3s marasil has and funny enough that deck also runs sakushima and would totally jam Marvin making this rules explanation extremely useful to me
I feel like they need to hand out a summary card, or put it into the prerelease booklet, of the layers orders/application at every prerelease. Then over time everyone will become more comfortable understanding the layers through osmosis. e.g. like what they've done for mana curve.
Hey could explain copyable attributes vs non-copyable attributes. I’ve just had to research it case by case every time and never found out the actual logic.
I love how experiment Kraj has made so many rulings What happens when a non planeswalker gets a planeswalker ability is another one it forced ruling for.
@@l0lan00b3 Not how it works. Any use of a cardname in text actually means "This card" and auto updates if the card gets new names. The only exception is on cards that say "cards/creatures/whathaveyou named cardname"
Sakashima doesn't have the bounce ability innately. It grants it to itself in the same layer as Marvin gains activated abilities. Therefore the if Marvin has the earlier timestamp, when Marvin checks for activated abilities, Sakashima doesn't have any yet
@@ocirMZ No, Sakashima gives itself the bounce ability in layer 1, as a copy effect. So by the time Marvin copies abilities in layer 6, Sakashima already has that ability.
Whenever a card uses it's own name, if it doesn't say "a card named ____", then you treat it as if it said "this card". If Sarkhan copies Dragon Hatchling, then it will have an ability that lets you pay {r} to give it +1/+0 until end of turn even though it's name isn't Dragon Hatchling.
interestingly because sakashima the imposter has a different name you could use multiple copies of marvin to have the imposter have X copies of activated abilities as opposed to having 2^x copies of abilites with having multiple marvins with different names. and fun stuff happens when you turn planeswalkers into creatures i suppose
I know it's minor but at 6:40 onwards Sakashima should be a colourless artifact creature - toy (still legendary ofc) that costs {2} and is a 2/2 rather than a 3/1
Really loved to watch your video. I am a former judge that was bad with the IPG, but I was a god with the CR, especially with chapter 613, the Layers system. Very refreshing to watch. I was caught by surprise when you directly went to the jump scare scene and throw at me that dependency loop title. Bruh! Loved it!
I'm gonna take a stab at this before watching fully. Ability adding occurs in Layer 6 so when the layers checks get there both cards look at all other cards with activated abilities FIRST. Neither Marvin nor Sakashima have an activated ability at this point so they don't see anything. Then, after all activated abilities have been accounted for, they gain all of those abilities (and Sakashima gains its return to hand ability at this point so Marvin doesn't see that either) and we move on to Layer 7. Layers don't recursively check within a layer to see if changes have occurred, they only check top-down once. So the next time state-based actions would occur and the layers need to be re-evaluated for changes we start at the top and work down.
I feel like we have already been through this with "what happens if i have 2 corpsejack meances out? Infinite counters?" Granted, it's *different* but still comes down to "apply the effects in order, no double dipping"
Nice job explaining the rules. I'm somewhat new to the game and your videos help me getting a better understanding of some wierd interactions? How does Silent arbiter interacts with attacking creatures with myriad? Since myriad has a may clause, I think the ruling will become a "may not"... hehehe
Silent arbiter stops you from declaring more than one creature as an attacker during the declare attackers step. Creatures that later enter already attacking aren't affected by it. They also get around Ghostly Prison and don't trigger "whenever this creature attacks" triggers.
Fun fact, Marvin and sakashima entering at the same time means sakashima can’t become a copy of Marvin. So you don’t really have to worry about choosing time stamp order in that situation
techniacally not impossible: you could have a Marvin in play, then put a second Marvin and Sakashima the Impostor are being put play at the same time, prior to entering Sakashima becomes a copy of the first Marvin, and then finally choose to keep the second Marvin as the legendary rule kicks in. Both the Marvin in play and the Sakashima would have entered at the same time.
Dont you choose order of placement when multiple things enter the stack so even if they do enter at same time they have different time stamps? @@Reldane
@@damedus If what you do uses the stack, sure. For example when you cast the creatures. But with an effect like "return all creatures from your graveyard to the battlefield" they go from graveyard to battlefield as simultaneous events and without going through another zone and notably not the stack. In that case, you choose a different timestamp for each (but that has to be after all previous events and before all subsequent events. In other words you choose the relative timestamp order).
@@attackoncardboard also I saw a content creator post about using Satya, Aetherflux Genius to copy manlands that have been activated. I'm not sure if the same rules apply to both scenarios due to them occurring on different layers
@@SorcerySpeedConcede I dont see any issue here. If Satya, Aetherflux Genius created copies of the manlands, they would just enter as tapped lands (not creatures and not attacking).
Great video!! Could you explain the interaction between "Kudo, King Among Bears" and a card like "Llhurgoyf"? IIUC the rules correctly, Kudo will overwrite Llhurgoyf's power and toughness due to the sub-layers 7a & 7b even if Llhurgoyf entered later in the game. Thank you!
Correct, CDA (Characteristic defining abilities) get applied first when looking at Power and Toughness. Basically anything that has star/star is a CDA. And as you mentioned, that's on Layer 7a so we set Llhurgoyf power and toughness there. Then Kudo comes into play, their effect then gets appled on Layer 7b and overwrites anything that was set before it. Setting the P/T to 2/2. Timestamps only come into play when looking at effects on the *exact* same Layer (or Sub Layer).
I have a question that I’m pretty sure I know the answer to. I just opened and played the precon commander box for “Aminatou, Veil Piercer”. In the 99, we get a copy of “Athreos, Shroud-Veiled”. Needless to say, I was super excited I only had to pay one White and one black thanks to Aminatou’s Miracle Cost discount. However, an interaction occurred that gave me a head scratch. Thanks to Athreos, at the beginning of my end step, I put a coin counter on another target creature. This is not a may ability so I’m forced to do this. Then it states, “Whenever a creature with a coin counter on it dies or is put into exile, return that card to the battlefield under your control.” If I put the coin counter on another player’s commander, will I gain control of their commander, before my opponent has the opportunity to return their commander to the Command Zone? Or is that a state-based action and the opponent has the opportunity to retrieve their commander before Athreos’ ability triggers?
So Athreos's "bring back" ability is a triggered ability, it will trigger and get put on the stack when the creature dies or is put into exile. If it's a players Commander that triggers this, after it's put into the GY or Exile but before Athreos's ability resolves, they can choose to put it into the Command zone. So no, unless a players wants you to have their Commander, you can't steal it.
It's like a scuteswarm trigger except in ability form. At least that's how it's defined. Considering I like to make multiple copies of creatures that benefits my decks
It's a bit strange that original Marvin doesn't get the bounce ability from Sakashima. Would that remain true for other abilities granted to Sakashima specifically? If I equipped a Paradise Mantle to it so that it was now able to tap for mana, would Marvin gain that ability?
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
One question - under this interaction (with Marvin first, then Sakashima), does Marvin also gain Sakashima's self-bounce ability? (and would Sakashima then gain a second copy of that ability, or has that dependency already been applied to her once so wouldn't run through again?)
I think it’s a continuous effect that gives Sakashima his ability. That means if Sakashima gains all his abilities after Marvin then Marvin will not gain the Sakashima bounce to hand ability.
@@bertdog2119 Ah. So if Sakashima enters but doesn't copy anything, it wouldn't gain its own self-bounce ability at all, because that is a part of the copy ability's continuous effect and not a separate ability that the creature just has?
@bertdog2119 Does Sakashima gain 'all' his abilities after Marvin, or does he gain all the abilities that are a consequence of being a copy of Marvin after Marvin? Because the bounce ability seems to be a replacement effect for it's copying ability which happens on layer one.
@@bertdog2119The difference is that Sakashima gains that particular ability as part of it's copy effect which applies in layer 1. Both the ability stealing effects apply on layer 4, which will be after Sakashima has gained the ability. Marvin will get a copy of it, which Sakashima will see as it applies it's Marvin effect afterwards. 707.9a: Some copy effects cause the copy to gain an ability as part of the copying process. This ability becomes part of the copiable values for the copy, along with any other abilities that were copied. Edit: layer 6 is abilities not 4.
I had one involving ugin's mastery and perilous vault. Situation: ugin's mastery manifests the top card of the library, which happens to be perilous vault Attack with creatures totalling 6 power or greater Ugin's mastery triggers, turning up a face down creature, targeting the manifested perilous vault(perilous vault has summoning sickness, and didnt attack.) Does perilous vault stay as a manifested creature without its ability? Or does it become perilous vault and regain its activated ability?
It becomes just a regular Perilous Vault. Ugin's Mastery bypassed the normal restriction imposed on manifested/cloaked cards (IE, You can only turn them face up if theyre a creature by paying it's mana cost).
@attackoncardboard ok, just wanted to make sure since a couple friends and I had debated about it. The wording of Ugin's mastery threw us all off, since it says "face down creature" and we were arguing about whether or not the manifested card, being a nonland permanent, would stay on the battlefield and become itself or just be a revealed face down creature
Could you explain the interactions between a Theros Gods(devotion matters) and the enchantment creatures that said when this creature dies return it to the battlefield, but it is not a creature.
So, spoiler alert: There's not really much of an interaction. In all ways relevant to this particular interaction, they are essentially the same ability, as they both remove the creature card type from an enchantment creature. However, I will still explain it in the spirit of the question. Let's say you use Mirrormade, copying Enduring Innocence, then that copy dies, you can return the Mirrormade with the death trigger, and have it enter as a copy of Heliod. That will give you a permanent affected by both abilities (which is the only way these can interact). Since they both apply in Layer 4, we use timestamps. In this case, the Enduring Innocence ability will have a timestamp at the time it triggered, while the Heliod ability has a timestamp at the time it entered. So Enduring Innocence will always have an earlier timestamp and apply first. Enduring Innocence says "This card is now an enchantment (and no other types)." Then Heliod says "This permanent stops being a creature", while it already is not a creature.
Marvin is great for a tonne of decks and I think he's quite broken because he's 2 mana. For perspective, for 2 mana you can get agatha's soul cauldron which everyone knows is a busted card, he's not as versatile and easier to take out, but he can be abused early for an extra copy of competitive activated abilities (arcum daagson specifically comes to mind). Marvin poses a threat, because if left out, you can drop another creature with a powerful tap effect and as players cant respond until you do anything after playing a creature with a powerful tap effect, it can nearly guarantee you get to use said tap ability.
so to my understanding with 1 Marvin IT would lose the ability of llanowar elves once the llanowar elves leaves the Battlefield. Does that mean in this case it wouldnt lose that ability. Also are there any crazy Combos with that.
Layers are checked constantly. So as soon as the Elves leave play, Marvin (and Sakashima) would lose that ability. If you had a Horseshoe Crab and anything ability that taps for 2 mana, that's infinite mana right there.
I’ve got a fun one for you. I have Chains of Mephistopheles and Talion’s Messenger on the battlefield with at least one card in hand. I attack with Talion’s Messenger. How many counters do I put on target faerie?
Chains is a replacement effect. And Talion's Messenger only cares about the cards you discard with their ability. I've not had much experience with Chains, but looks like you would be discarding two cards here. One from Chains and one from Talion's ability, so depending on how many cards in your hand, a maximum of 2 counters.
I’m confused on why the original doesn’t get sakashimas bounce effect because it should update Marvin with a new ability right nvrmind saw pinned comment
@@attackoncardboard there was a time where you could use wastes that became colorless swamps to pay for eldrazi spells with colorless costs, the game would break because a "colorless swamp mana" would get used to pay for something thats impossible and there was no rules to support the interaction the big rules change for commander was, your mana sources can now make mana outside of your commanders colors if it was able to, since the old rules state that mana you would float outside of your commander colors would be colorless. making it so mana floats any color it could produce fixed this
Now for the timestamp thing if both enter at the same time, if you had it so Marvin applied his effect after Saka's. Would marvin be the one with two instances of Saka's ability?
I'm still not sure on how Marvin and Sakashima looks like before the Llanowar elves enters the battlfield. Has Marvin the "return to your hand" activated ability? Whithout other creatures it seems that the dependancy still exists, but is different...
Marvin always gets the bounce ability since that is given to Sakashima as part of the layer 1 copy effect rather than a normal ability granting effect. Because Marvin is getting an ability from his effect, Sakashima will be dependent on him.
So, suppose I control Rishkar, Peema Renegade with a counter on it and Marvin without a counter on it. In that case, it's also relevant which permanent entered the battlefield first while determining whether Marivn can tap for green or not?
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
Yes. That one will get stolen specifically because it's granted as part of the copy effect rather than as a normal ability granting effect. That means it happens on layer 1, which is before either of the Marvin ability stealing effects are applied on layer 4. Marvin will then copy that ability, then Sakashima will copy it back leading to them having 1 and 2 instances of it respectively.
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
Doesn't really matter much cause either way you end up with using timestamp order, but isn't there no dependency between the two at all? Neither ability is changing the text or existence of the others' ability, they both have "this gains all activated abilities..." applying one doesn't change the effect of the other right?
Applying one does change the other though? If Marvin gains a new activated ability, so will Sakashima. If Sakashima gains a new activated ability, so will Marvin. Theyre both dependent on each other.
If a new ability adding effect comes into play then Marvin will depend on it and it will wedge itself in before him, right? Doesn't this apply to Sakashima's return to hand ability as well since it is from a different ability than the one in the delendency loop?
If you mean someone playing another clone that ignores the legend rule (maybe spark double), then all 3 will have a dependency loop and apply in timestamp order of Marvin -> Sakashima -> Spark Double. If you instead mean something that just adds an activated ability to something (Maybe you put Dual Casting on your Llanowar Elves), then Marvin and Sakashima will both be dependent on that, but it won't be dependent on them so it applies first, then the other two apply in timestamp order due to their dependency loop.
What if instead of adding a new creature with an ability to the board, we add a new ability to Sakashima via card effect? Will Marvin update copying everything on Sakashima and then after that will Sakashima update copying everything on Marvin? Or will Marvin ignore new effects added to Sakashima because of the dependency rule, even if we are ignoring it and going by timestamp?
So, both Marvin and Sakashima will be dependent on the new activated ability (perhaps from something like Splinter Twin), but the ability is not dependent on either of them. Because of that, you apply the new effect first, then Marvin and Sakashima in timestamp order. Marvin will have one instance of the Splinter Twin ability, and Sakashima will have 2.
I will say I think "reading the card explains teh card" was always a fandom joke and not in any way an actual thought from WotC. Otherwise they wouldn't have a rule book that could kill you if it fell of a shelf onto your head.
@@jacobbrown9894 Going to nitpick you there but its only 296 pages long in its PDF and DOCX formats as of September 2024. So if it was translated into a A4 sized book first the physical page amount would be halved (printing on bothsides) into 148 pages so it is not that thick of a book.
Hi AoC! I asked a group of judges that couldn’t give me an unique answer, they didn’t agree on it, so I came to you, The card is Bestial Fury, it has an unique updated oracle text regarding a trigger with a draw: “When it ETB’s, draw a card at THE BEGINNING OF THE NEXT TURN’S UPKEEP” Cool, what if the next turn has more than one upkeep? Note that the text is different from the regular “draw a card at the beginning of the next upkeep” Bestial fury has this unique text Would you help me answer this question? Thanks!
That is actually the standard templating for those kinds of effects. Mishra's Bauble, Portent, Arcane Denial, and tons of other similar cards also use it. Conversely, I think Archangel Avacyn is the only one that uses "at the beginning of the next upkeep", though plenty use that for other parts of the turn. That being said, while I would think it only triggers on the first upkeep, I've had a hard time finding anything that clarifies it.
It should only trigger once. 603.7b A delayed triggered ability will trigger only once-the next time its trigger event occurs-unless it has a stated duration, such as “this turn.” If its trigger event occurs more than once simultaneously and the ability doesn’t have a stated duration, the controller of the delayed triggered ability chooses which event causes the ability to trigger.
Projenitor mimic copies an enchantment that Bello, bard of the brambles, is currently making a creature. Progenitor mimic would copy the enchantment, but still be a creature on your turn. If bello leaves, projenitor will no longer be a creature on your turn. Does it's effect do nothing?
It still makes copies of itself. In the same way that "Marvin has all activated abilities of other creatures with different names" doesn't care if the creature with the ability is Marvin, "At the beginning of your upkeep, of this creature isn't a token, make a token copy of this creature" doesn't care if it's source is a creature. In both cases "Marvin", or "this creature" means the same thing as "this permanent".
I would like to point out to anyone who gets mad at um actually for getting this wrong (not saying the video is mad im saying some of the viewer on this video are mad). That they openly talk about not being perfect amd even have a section of the show where they share corrections from fans from previous episode There are thousands of cards in magic and unless you are deep into the game you WILL make mistakes. Please, forgive um actually and give them a calm and collected correction without insulting them
In this instance, the Content Creator in question has still left the video up and has made no effort to attempt to correct the mistake. All that needs to be done is either a community post, take the video down or a pinned comment at least.
Could you explain whether or not Marvin or Sakashima would still have the activated ability from the Llanowar Elves if the elf card leaves the battlefield? (Or if a token Copy of Marvin is made; or if it were Blinked or Phased out for example, and the board state changed before it returned?) This may seem like a rookie question but I think even before Marvin there was already a lot of confusion about copies, tokens, clones, and shapeshifer/changeling. Imagine you're 12 years old for example, and there's no Judge around just your know-it-all pal who in fact doesnt know it all...😂
Marvin (and therefore Sakashima) continously checks what's on the board, if not then it couldn't gain the abilities of creatures entering after it, which also means that if creatures leave the battlefield, their abilities will be lost, and as such, blinking Marvin won't change anything on which abilities he have. But he'll count as a new objet toward abilities with a limited number of uses and will have regain summoning sickness preventing him from using abilities requiring to tap.
I need help, please explain why if someone uses ashiok dream render and mill a gaea's blessing the cards put in the graveyard from my library are still exile even thou they have to Return do gaea's resolves after the exiling
marven & saka both also get the tag that they can't copy from marven, regardless of what name they have. So even if they can copy from each other, we should have at max. marven copy elf & saka copy elf, then marven copy saka & saka can not copy any marven! & saka may copy it self. So that adds up to 4 of the elf tap for green.
That's not correct. 201.5b If an ability of an object refers to that object by name, and an object with a different name gains that ability, each instance of the first name in the gained ability that refers to the first object by name should be treated as the second name. Example: Dimir Doppelganger says “{1}{U}{B}: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. Dimir Doppelganger becomes a copy of that card and gains this ability.” Dimir Doppelganger’s ability is activated targeting a Runeclaw Bear card. The Doppelganger becomes a copy of Runeclaw Bear and gains an ability that should be treated as saying “{1}{U}{B}: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. Runeclaw Bear becomes a copy of that card and gains this ability.”
Does the copy really work (newie question)? Doesn't the copy of Marvin got also the Text "Marvin[..] has all activated abilities [..] that don't have the same name as this creature." Sakashima would have that text to, but the Card name is Sakashima the Imposter, not Marvin...and only Marvin has all the abilities, or? If not: And would Sakashima get Marvins abilities? The text says, only from creatures with not the same name. And the name is Marvin, or? Or did i mixed up something :-)
Anywhere you see the text "Marvin" in the ability, it gets replaced by Sakashima's name :) 201.5b If an ability of an object refers to that object by name, and an object with a different name gains that ability, each instance of the first name in the gained ability that refers to the first object by name should be treated as the second name. Example: Quicksilver Elemental says, in part, “{U}: Quicksilver Elemental gains all activated abilities of target creature until end of turn.” If it gains an ability that says “{G}: Regenerate Cudgel Troll,” activating that ability will regenerate Quicksilver Elemental, not the Cudgel Troll it gained the ability from.
OK here's a question! What if! You have Marvin out! Then storm the festival hitting Marvin and saka! You keep the new Marvin leaving the Marvin and saka being played at the same exact time...(saka targeted the old marvin to copy) Can you apply the layers a different way?
aaaaaaaand this is why marvin is colorless for the purpose of commander balancing purposes because if he had any colors and was your commander, he is confusing and gets out of hand quickly with any copy effects.
Like I mentioned in the video, regular copy effects aren't breaking things here because of the name clause. Sakashima and Psychic Paper is what you need 😁
Do you even need the elf in this example? Sakshima already has an activated ability for Marvin to copy. I DO actually have a question about Rendmaw. If you have a mycosynth lattice in play will playing a land that does not have two types cause him to trigger. I'm aware that they would trigger an etb effect like panharmonicon. However, I'm uncertain about the specific interactions about the special game action of playing a land for turn. Does the game need to KNOW the land in your hand has two types, or will it having two types once it's entered the battlefield be enough? I partially blame wotc for lumping both triggers into the somewhat murky "play" action. I hope you can go into this; because, it'll decide if a mycosynth lattice will be a good addition or not.
Mycosynth lattice only add the artifact card type to permanents, i.e. cards and tokens on the battlefield, so when you play a land that doesn't natively have a second card type it won't trigger Rendmaw.
@@Sephiroth517 do you know the relevant rules that apply to this interaction? Everything that isn't a land needs to enter the stack, where it would be checked for the correct typing. Lands go from a hidden zone where their characteristics aren't known, onto the battlefield where they will be artifact lands.
@@raze667 cards in your hands are not hidden to the game mechanics, nothing is... Anytime you play a card, Rendmaw ability will trigger to check it's types to see if he create a token and put it on the stack, or not. That happens as soon as you play the card, before the card itself enters the stack, if it's a spell (like the "when you cast this spell" effects on Ulamog), or directly enters the battlefield if it's a land. And so, before the lattice indeed add artifact to the card's existing types.
@@Sephiroth517 again do you have relevant rules for that? "When you cast" is when the spell is on the stack not before. Otherwise anything that would trigger would be under the spell. There is no stack to delay the land from already being an artifact once it hits the battlefield. Also there absolutely are hidden information zones. Every card in your deck is nothing but a"card" until is it revealed.
Soo...why Sakashima's activated return effect isn't copied on Marvin?? Marvin would see this ability manifest on Sakashima, wouldn't it? I don't see a timing exception on Marvin's text :/
That one will get stolen specifically because it's granted as part of the copy effect rather than as a normal ability granting effect. That means it happens on layer 1, which is before either of the Marvin ability stealing effects are applied on layer 4. Marvin will then copy that ability, then Sakashima will copy it back leading to them having 1 and 2 instances of it respectively.
@@seandun7083 I have to say @attackoncardboard should have clarified this, seeing as many people left confused about this ability getting copied in the comments, and that the whole video was about copying effects!
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
So if marvin is copying multiple tap abilities from multiple creatures, say lanowar elves and royal assasin, does marvin have to tap and pick a single ability or does it tap being able to destroy a tapped creature and also generating a green mana at the same time?
Tapping him only pays for one ability in the same way that you can't use a single Red mana to activate Shivan Dragon multiple times. Of course if you have something like Horseshoe Crab you could untap him and do another. If you have 2 Wall of Roots, Marvin would have 2 instances of the "once per turn" ability and could activate both of them once per turn.
What if Marvin and an experiment kraj enter simultaneously(say from Brago) and both enter with +1/+1 counters( say from grumgully). Did then having the same time stamp make things harder
If 2 objects enter at the same time, they get timestamps in APNAP order. That means, any controlled by the player whose turn it is get the earliest timestamps, then we go around in turn order. If 2 or more have the same controller, that player chooses the order as they enter. 613.7m: If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, their relative timestamps are determined in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). Objects controlled by the active player (or owned by the active player, if they have no controller) have an earlier relative timestamp in the order of that player's choice, followed by each other player in turn order.
Copying a spell creature is not the same as creating a token. So Silverquill wont interact with Deepest Foundation. I'm not sure where the lands come into play here?
@@attackoncardboard oh i mean if you get a token of Ojer you would have either 1 or 3 of those tokens, but they would still come under legendary rule and get destroyed? and when Ojer gets destroyed, it turns into the land temple of civilisation. so guess my question was, how many tokens are created and can the created tokens turn into the land side of Ojer or do tokens not have double sides?
@@isnilaluneIf you demonstrate Ojer Taq, you only get one token copy. You copy the spell which becomes a token, but that isn't the same as creating a token. Then, you check state based actions and see that you now control 2 of them, so you choose one to sacrifice. If you sacrifice the token, it ceases to exist rather than coming back. If you sacrifice the original though, you can flip it while also keeping the token since the token has a different name than the land on the back.
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too. In the case of Paradise Mantle, it depends on Timestamps. If Marvin comes into play *after* the Mantle has been equipped, yes. The creature will gain that ability before Marvin copies everything. If Marvin is in play first, they apply their copy effect *before* Mantle gives the creature the activated ability.
Yeah. Both are on layer 6, but since what Marvin's ability does depends on what abilities Mairsil gets, we apply Mairsil first due to dependencies. (In the Sakashima example both depend of the other so we use timestamps to break the tie). Mairsil steals abilities from all the Caged things, then Marvin steals the abilities from Mairsil and all your other creatures.
SMALL CORRECTION:
I was under the impression Sakashima would get their 'bounce' ability during Layer 6 - Adding and Removing abilities, which is why I didn't believe Marvin would get a copy of that ability. This is *incorrect* .
Sakashima gets their 'bounce' ability during Layer 1 - Copy effects. In which case, Marvin *would* have a copy of Sakashima's 'bounce' ability (so then Sakashima would have *two* instances of their bounce ability).
707.9a Some copy effects cause the copy to gain an ability as part of the copying process. This ability becomes part of the copiable values for the copy, along with any other abilities that were copied.
Also to the people asking why I was using Llanowar Elves as the example, as it doesn't really 'do' anything here, it was the easiest and simplest activated ability I could think of to try and make the explanation a bit clearer.
So if I understand you tap all three for mana and you would still only have 3 mana. Gaining an additional tap add mana doesn't mean you add an additional when you tap them correct?
@@jefferyepps6728
Correct as you are on each instance only able to pay the cost (T:G) once.
@@jefferyepps6728 That's correct.
So just as a point, even if lets say this was not the case and there was a world we had sakashima gaining an effect on layer 6 and it wasnt from the continuous effect from Marvin, lets say using retraction helix targetting sakashima (or as you originally thought Sakashima gaining the ability to bounce).
Then you actually get a dependancy forming between the ability granting effect which gives sakashima the retraction helix effect and Marvins ability, so we would always give Sakashima the retraction helix ability and then marvin would gain it and then we would give sakashima all activated abilities from Marvin (assuming that sakashima entered the battlefield after marvin and so timestamps for other things works).
This doesnt seem all that important for most abilities, however there are probably some shinaigans you can do with psychic paper/stickers, quicksilver elemental, and an effect like Blade of Shared Souls.
@@harrysmith4100 In the case were you are giving some new hability to Sakashima, as in your example, it would only result in Sakashima having 2 instances of that hability and Marvin having one such instance.
When the layer program is run it resets all previous states and apply them again.
In your example it would mean that when you give Sakashima the ability with retraction helix the layer program would run giving sakashima it`s own ability and the helix ability and when it get to layer 6 Marvin would get sakashima's 2 abilities then sakashima would gain marvin copies of it's abilities.
If only there was a rule irl that stopped ME from forming a dependency loop. 😢
"When you have mixed feelings about something and you're stuck in a dependency loop, apply them in Timestamp order. " 😂
Okay, I'm not as experienced a player. But I talked to my friend who is a judge, like level 0 or 1, whatever the really low one is, and I said "wouldn't it just be timestamped, Marvin has 1 copy, Sakashima has 2?" And he VEHEMENTLY disagreed. I AM VINDICATED
Can I just say I appreciate the use of Mike Trapp and "Um, Actually" here.
Layers is such a crazy logic hiding in the background you wouldn’t realize while just playing the game.
Layers literally impact every single game, unless of course you're only playing with Vanilla creatures and no buff/debuff spells.
That's why it's my mission to dispell the "difficulty" around them 🙂
New player: Man, this The Stack thing can get pretty full on. But I think I'm slowly wrapping my head around triggers and priority! I remember when I thought all this stuff was hard!
Veteran: Mate, The Stack and Priority are merely henchman. There's this guy, Tony '7-Layers', that pulls all the levers. Rumor has it he sits on a throne made of artist-proof Humility's.'
@@brendans1983 And Tony '7-Layers' doesn't even wear underwear - instead, he wears Dependencies.
Crazier when you think the order of the layers is carefully set, sometimes just because of the existence of a single card.
@@Stefouch
Blood Moon, the solution to, and cause of, all of life's problems.
My friend watched that misinforrmation video and had to go through the logic of this.
But I am thankful that you made a video that makes clearing up the issue so well
Thank you for this clear and thorough explanation of this interaction! (You'll be happy to know this is the top result for a Google search of Duskmourn rules.)
Hell Yeah. We love Layers!
😋
Nice explanation! I think the sum-up sentence is something like "when a dependency loop forms, f*** that s***", which is actually really good. A recent rules thing that came up for me was on the card Come Back Wrong (from this set), where I found out that moving the Commander from [a zone] back to the command zone is a state based action that can only happen when you have priority. I don't know how, but I'm sure somebody must have broken this before now 🤔
Magic has a funny relationships with infinite loops, sometimes they draw the game and that's that. Sometimes the rules say, ok, you've shown your loop, now make a different choice (Amalia + Wildgrowth) and in the case of Layers, the rules are like, Nope. Not dealing with that. Shut it down. 😂
So a small nitpick is that state based actions happen right before you put triggers on the stack, which is right before someone gets priority, but otherwise yeah.
It used to be a replacement effect, but that stopped people from getting dies triggers which was obviously pretty disappointing for anyone who's Commander had one.
Yeah, the answer to dependency loops is to not use dependency loops.
@@seandun7083also, nowadays it is still a replacement effect for any change of zone except battlefield to graveyard or exile, such as returning to hand
613.2a Layer 1a: Copiable effects are applied. This includes copy effects (see rule 707,
“Copying
Objects”)
707.9a Some copy effects cause the copy to gain an ability as part of the copying process. This
ability becomes part of the copiable values for the copy, along with any other abilities that were
copied.
I’m pretty sure that these rules together mean that Sakashima’s ability is granted to it on layer 1 so Marvin should have it
That's probably right. In which case, Marvin gains a copy of the Sakashima ability, and then Sakashima gains a second copy of its own ability. Neat. :)
I belive that would be correct, its the same reasoning as why Kudo, king among bears keeps his P/T moddifing abilities while dress down is on the field due to it also containing a type-modifying abilites which is on a layer above ability removing effects
This makes sense. Definitely seems like the ability addition is part of the copy here so it makes sense to be one thing
You're right. I missed that. I will make a correction now.
This would seem to be the most correct interpretation
Folk always underestimate the incredible depth to which the rules of MTG have been plumbed, explored and explained, I think it's because 99% of the game can be played without this kind of comprehensive (haha that's a pun, see?) knowledge of the inner workings, it's a testament to both the overall design of the game being able to handle these kinds of corner cases, as well as the skill in designing the sets themselves to not normally require this depth of rules explanation.
The fact there's over 26k unique cards and you can take any combination of them to any Seasoned Judged and they'll both come to the same answer is a testament to this.
This is far more complicated than my explanation to my group using a Dauthi Voidwalker from different players on the same board. Thanks mate for the breakdown.
There was an explanation for how this works in the reddit spoiler for this card. Took a little while for someone to answer with real rules so it is a bit deep in there, but it is in there. The answer to this question like 12 hours after the card was spoiled.
Also Experiment Kraj answered this over a decade ago 😂
@@attackoncardboard oh cool, I was wondering what other examples of it there might be. Good vid BTW.
Thank you. I appreciate your correction and good research.
I love the magic rules. I get really frustrated when I'm playing board games and situations come up that aren't covered in the rules. But wizards has literally everything covered and it brings me so much joy to always find an answer in the rules. Sometimes I actually read the rules just for fun because of it xD
When I saw that video I immediately thought of the Experimental Kraj ruling. Glad to be vindicated.
Ty, I was discussing about this for a long day! Clear answer. 🙏🙏
3:54 i know ive said this already but ape escape music is just such a nice touch
I must say, magic is a crazy difficult game to understand.... Sometimes I have to watch this videos 3x to comprehend what is going on. Love your videos!
Actually wondering why Marvin didn't end up with the sakashima ability to be returned to hand, is that just how the layers would break down? He gains the ability after Marvin has already checked and that's why he didn't get it?
Ya I think that is just a misrepresentation in the video. The Marvin would actually have the 4 mana return to hand and the tap effect. I think he glossed over that since it wasn't what the "problem" was about. Technically the way it actually works is every new instance of an ability is checked to see if it causes this loop. If it does it defaults to the first marven getting one instance and the second getting 2 and each ability is set as a pyramid with the origin of the ability being top then it goes by the timestamp so for sakashima he would be at the top and thus removed from the timestamp
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
@attackoncardboard I feel very odd having noticed a rules error in your video having personally, very little knowledge of the 600+ pages of rules. Your videos work
So in that case, Sakashima would also have two instances of that ability right?
Sakashima's ability targets Sakashima by name.
I really appreciate all the work you put into these videos. It's really cool that a game as complex as Magic has readily available answers to rules questions.
Some other TCGs I play (I'm looking at you, Yugioh) just give you a ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ when you need to know how cards interact. It's very frustrating to worry about your cards interacting the same way from event to event.
Thank you for taking the time to comment! Really appreciate your kind words :)
@@attackoncardboard :)
Trapp or Iffy being the face of rules corrections makes me feel good
Attack on Cards doing the lords work dispelling the mysteries of Layers... and we love him for it! - James
EDIT: I didn't see the pinned comment... whoops lol 😅
Fun fact: Sakashima's ability-giving effect is actually not applied in layer 6, as it is a copying exception. As such, it's applied in layer 1 (the copy layer), according to rule 707.9a! This not only means that the Marvin will actually have an instance of Sakashima's ability and that Sakashima will have two instances, it also means that you don't have to play another creature with an activated ability to see this interaction play out!
Yeah, that was my mistake 😅 was so zoned in on the abilities side of things, I didn't double check the copy rules 🤦
As someone who loves his experiment kraj deck, yea, as you said, not new. just having marvin and kraj would make similar fun things (assuming marvin had the +1/+1. you got to love when someone jumps the gun on something "breaking the game"
Season of the Witch & Silent Arbiter from what I have seen. The creatures that get destroyed from Season of the Witch are determined by the judge. Please make a video about this interaction.
Oh this one is easy. Silent Arbiter doesn't stop which creatures are able to attack, it just limits how many creatures you can attack with. Assuming you have 4 creatures that could normally attack (no summoning sickness, no defender, etc.) you pick one to attack and the other three are destroyed.
@JudgingFTW has an excellent video on this. It's DDR#571
"Could have attacked" means that they don't suffer summoning sickness, or have haste. Siren's Call works the same. Anything that doesn't have summoning sickness, but did not attack for whatever reason, dies. Very fitting in those deep sea decks that tap down creatures or disable attackers.
Sorry if this has already been commented but according the mtg judge chat, Marvin would have sakashimas bounce ability since it’s gained in lair 1.
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
@@attackoncardboard thank you for acknowledging it! I just saw your pinned comment. I asked the same thing in the judge chat after I saw the other creators video and I originally had the same thought process as you.
The actual funny thing here is that since sakashima gets the ability in lair 1, and we assume the sakashima has the later timestamp, that means it will actually get its own bounce ability again from Marvin.
@@Scarveilix I do try to be as thorough as possible with these videos, I've been working and researching this script all week, and this key piece of rules text clearly slipped passed me. Thankfully the vast majority and the main point of this video is still correct, so I believe a pinned correction and replying to comments should suffice here :)
And yes! That's right too!
You know this reminds me allot of an interaction I have in my marsil the pretender deck with quick silver elemental if use the 3lementals ability to copy the abilti3s marasil has and funny enough that deck also runs sakushima and would totally jam Marvin making this rules explanation extremely useful to me
Binged a ton of vids here. Fantastic channel
Appreciate it 🙏 Hope you enjoy what's to come!
I feel like they need to hand out a summary card, or put it into the prerelease booklet, of the layers orders/application at every prerelease. Then over time everyone will become more comfortable understanding the layers through osmosis. e.g. like what they've done for mana curve.
Sorry but this is an awful idea. Players have to learn enough things to even consider layers, that’s why judges or googling are for.
Hey could explain copyable attributes vs non-copyable attributes. I’ve just had to research it case by case every time and never found out the actual logic.
I love how experiment Kraj has made so many rulings
What happens when a non planeswalker gets a planeswalker ability is another one it forced ruling for.
at 7:13 would the original Marvin not also have Sakashima's bounce ability?
Idk the card is named in the ability. If Marvin activated it it would then just bounce the sakashima?
@@l0lan00b3 Not how it works. Any use of a cardname in text actually means "This card" and auto updates if the card gets new names. The only exception is on cards that say "cards/creatures/whathaveyou named cardname"
Sakashima doesn't have the bounce ability innately. It grants it to itself in the same layer as Marvin gains activated abilities.
Therefore the if Marvin has the earlier timestamp, when Marvin checks for activated abilities, Sakashima doesn't have any yet
@@ocirMZ No, Sakashima gives itself the bounce ability in layer 1, as a copy effect. So by the time Marvin copies abilities in layer 6, Sakashima already has that ability.
@@FM-96 true, the ability granting is still part of the "except" clause and will therefore be added in layer 1
Thank you so much for explaining this. Your awesome!!!!!
Obviously Psychic Paper is more of a "real card", but you could in theory get around the name issue with name stickers, also.
I never thought of Kraaj as an example of Marvin's ability. I'd thought it was entirely new.
Great video! Would like to see an explanation of Sarkhan, Soul Aflame's interaction with effects that mention the copied dragon by name
Whenever a card uses it's own name, if it doesn't say "a card named ____", then you treat it as if it said "this card".
If Sarkhan copies Dragon Hatchling, then it will have an ability that lets you pay {r} to give it +1/+0 until end of turn even though it's name isn't Dragon Hatchling.
@@seandun7083 thanks for the explanation
interestingly because sakashima the imposter has a different name you could use multiple copies of marvin to have the imposter have X copies of activated abilities as opposed to having 2^x copies of abilites with having multiple marvins with different names. and fun stuff happens when you turn planeswalkers into creatures i suppose
@@Nilmur2 even more when you then use Helm of the Host to create a non-legendary token copy of said planeswalker ^^
The hero we needed
8:23 That's a *_really_* creepy threat
I know it's minor but at 6:40 onwards Sakashima should be a colourless artifact creature - toy (still legendary ofc) that costs {2} and is a 2/2 rather than a 3/1
By that point I was very tired of editing and couldnt be bother with that level of detail 😅
You gotta be in the $100/month tier to get that level of editing.
Really loved to watch your video. I am a former judge that was bad with the IPG, but I was a god with the CR, especially with chapter 613, the Layers system. Very refreshing to watch. I was caught by surprise when you directly went to the jump scare scene and throw at me that dependency loop title. Bruh! Loved it!
I'm gonna take a stab at this before watching fully.
Ability adding occurs in Layer 6 so when the layers checks get there both cards look at all other cards with activated abilities FIRST. Neither Marvin nor Sakashima have an activated ability at this point so they don't see anything. Then, after all activated abilities have been accounted for, they gain all of those abilities (and Sakashima gains its return to hand ability at this point so Marvin doesn't see that either) and we move on to Layer 7. Layers don't recursively check within a layer to see if changes have occurred, they only check top-down once. So the next time state-based actions would occur and the layers need to be re-evaluated for changes we start at the top and work down.
Close, but I forgot about Timestamps (and, technically, dependencies but that didn't actually apply)
Also Layers don't wait for State based actions. They're applied instantly and constantly 🙂 Good effort though 👏
I feel like we have already been through this with "what happens if i have 2 corpsejack meances out? Infinite counters?" Granted, it's *different* but still comes down to "apply the effects in order, no double dipping"
Corpsejack has a replacement effect. But yeah, you only apply each effect once
Experiment Kraj is a closer existing version, but yeah.
Nice job explaining the rules. I'm somewhat new to the game and your videos help me getting a better understanding of some wierd interactions?
How does Silent arbiter interacts with attacking creatures with myriad? Since myriad has a may clause, I think the ruling will become a "may not"... hehehe
Silent arbiter stops you from declaring more than one creature as an attacker during the declare attackers step. Creatures that later enter already attacking aren't affected by it. They also get around Ghostly Prison and don't trigger "whenever this creature attacks" triggers.
Fun fact, Marvin and sakashima entering at the same time means sakashima can’t become a copy of Marvin. So you don’t really have to worry about choosing time stamp order in that situation
Anytime I mention timestamps in a video, someone *always* comments, "What about if they enter at the same time" 😂
techniacally not impossible: you could have a Marvin in play, then put a second Marvin and Sakashima the Impostor are being put play at the same time, prior to entering Sakashima becomes a copy of the first Marvin, and then finally choose to keep the second Marvin as the legendary rule kicks in. Both the Marvin in play and the Sakashima would have entered at the same time.
@@Reldane I mean sure, most things can be done if you add more variables.
Dont you choose order of placement when multiple things enter the stack so even if they do enter at same time they have different time stamps? @@Reldane
@@damedus If what you do uses the stack, sure. For example when you cast the creatures.
But with an effect like "return all creatures from your graveyard to the battlefield" they go from graveyard to battlefield as simultaneous events and without going through another zone and notably not the stack. In that case, you choose a different timestamp for each (but that has to be after all previous events and before all subsequent events. In other words you choose the relative timestamp order).
Could you do a video on cloning? Specifically covering weird interactions like Orvar and Mordenkainen's Polymorph effects.
Great idea! I'll add it to my notes. I made a small mistake in this video about the cloning process, so I still have things to learn too :D
@@attackoncardboard also I saw a content creator post about using Satya, Aetherflux Genius to copy manlands that have been activated. I'm not sure if the same rules apply to both scenarios due to them occurring on different layers
@@SorcerySpeedConcede I dont see any issue here. If Satya, Aetherflux Genius created copies of the manlands, they would just enter as tapped lands (not creatures and not attacking).
@@attackoncardboard I wasn't sure if the copies would stay as creatures. Thanks!
Great video!! Could you explain the interaction between "Kudo, King Among Bears" and a card like "Llhurgoyf"? IIUC the rules correctly, Kudo will overwrite Llhurgoyf's power and toughness due to the sub-layers 7a & 7b even if Llhurgoyf entered later in the game. Thank you!
Correct, CDA (Characteristic defining abilities) get applied first when looking at Power and Toughness. Basically anything that has star/star is a CDA. And as you mentioned, that's on Layer 7a so we set Llhurgoyf power and toughness there. Then Kudo comes into play, their effect then gets appled on Layer 7b and overwrites anything that was set before it. Setting the P/T to 2/2.
Timestamps only come into play when looking at effects on the *exact* same Layer (or Sub Layer).
Why is it always Layers...
I think I have a fun card to suggest!
From the intro alone, I knew it had to be layers…
"So where did that bring you? Back to me." - Layers
I have a question that I’m pretty sure I know the answer to.
I just opened and played the precon commander box for “Aminatou, Veil Piercer”. In the 99, we get a copy of “Athreos, Shroud-Veiled”. Needless to say, I was super excited I only had to pay one White and one black thanks to Aminatou’s Miracle Cost discount. However, an interaction occurred that gave me a head scratch.
Thanks to Athreos, at the beginning of my end step, I put a coin counter on another target creature. This is not a may ability so I’m forced to do this. Then it states, “Whenever a creature with a coin counter on it dies or is put into exile, return that card to the battlefield under your control.”
If I put the coin counter on another player’s commander, will I gain control of their commander, before my opponent has the opportunity to return their commander to the Command Zone? Or is that a state-based action and the opponent has the opportunity to retrieve their commander before Athreos’ ability triggers?
So Athreos's "bring back" ability is a triggered ability, it will trigger and get put on the stack when the creature dies or is put into exile.
If it's a players Commander that triggers this, after it's put into the GY or Exile but before Athreos's ability resolves, they can choose to put it into the Command zone.
So no, unless a players wants you to have their Commander, you can't steal it.
Thank you so much! We kinda figured that at the table, but it’s nice to have the confirmation from an expert. 😊 Thanks again!
It's like a scuteswarm trigger except in ability form. At least that's how it's defined. Considering I like to make multiple copies of creatures that benefits my decks
Great video!
Thanks for taking the time to comment and let me know! 😊 Hope you enjoy the next one!
now i want to build a deck around copying marvin with different names and using restricted abilities multiple times
Ape escape music for the win
It's a bit strange that original Marvin doesn't get the bounce ability from Sakashima. Would that remain true for other abilities granted to Sakashima specifically? If I equipped a Paradise Mantle to it so that it was now able to tap for mana, would Marvin gain that ability?
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
One question - under this interaction (with Marvin first, then Sakashima), does Marvin also gain Sakashima's self-bounce ability? (and would Sakashima then gain a second copy of that ability, or has that dependency already been applied to her once so wouldn't run through again?)
I think it’s a continuous effect that gives Sakashima his ability. That means if Sakashima gains all his abilities after Marvin then Marvin will not gain the Sakashima bounce to hand ability.
@@bertdog2119 Ah. So if Sakashima enters but doesn't copy anything, it wouldn't gain its own self-bounce ability at all, because that is a part of the copy ability's continuous effect and not a separate ability that the creature just has?
@@danpearman270 I believe that is true, yes
@bertdog2119 Does Sakashima gain 'all' his abilities after Marvin, or does he gain all the abilities that are a consequence of being a copy of Marvin after Marvin? Because the bounce ability seems to be a replacement effect for it's copying ability which happens on layer one.
@@bertdog2119The difference is that Sakashima gains that particular ability as part of it's copy effect which applies in layer 1. Both the ability stealing effects apply on layer 4, which will be after Sakashima has gained the ability. Marvin will get a copy of it, which Sakashima will see as it applies it's Marvin effect afterwards.
707.9a: Some copy effects cause the copy to gain an ability as part of the copying process. This ability becomes part of the copiable values for the copy, along with any other abilities that were copied.
Edit: layer 6 is abilities not 4.
I had one involving ugin's mastery and perilous vault.
Situation: ugin's mastery manifests the top card of the library, which happens to be perilous vault
Attack with creatures totalling 6 power or greater
Ugin's mastery triggers, turning up a face down creature, targeting the manifested perilous vault(perilous vault has summoning sickness, and didnt attack.)
Does perilous vault stay as a manifested creature without its ability? Or does it become perilous vault and regain its activated ability?
It just becomes perilous vault
It becomes just a regular Perilous Vault. Ugin's Mastery bypassed the normal restriction imposed on manifested/cloaked cards (IE, You can only turn them face up if theyre a creature by paying it's mana cost).
@attackoncardboard ok, just wanted to make sure since a couple friends and I had debated about it.
The wording of Ugin's mastery threw us all off, since it says "face down creature" and we were arguing about whether or not the manifested card, being a nonland permanent, would stay on the battlefield and become itself or just be a revealed face down creature
Could you explain the interactions between a Theros Gods(devotion matters) and the enchantment creatures that said when this creature dies return it to the battlefield, but it is not a creature.
So, spoiler alert: There's not really much of an interaction. In all ways relevant to this particular interaction, they are essentially the same ability, as they both remove the creature card type from an enchantment creature. However, I will still explain it in the spirit of the question.
Let's say you use Mirrormade, copying Enduring Innocence, then that copy dies, you can return the Mirrormade with the death trigger, and have it enter as a copy of Heliod. That will give you a permanent affected by both abilities (which is the only way these can interact).
Since they both apply in Layer 4, we use timestamps. In this case, the Enduring Innocence ability will have a timestamp at the time it triggered, while the Heliod ability has a timestamp at the time it entered. So Enduring Innocence will always have an earlier timestamp and apply first.
Enduring Innocence says "This card is now an enchantment (and no other types)." Then Heliod says "This permanent stops being a creature", while it already is not a creature.
Marvin is great for a tonne of decks and I think he's quite broken because he's 2 mana. For perspective, for 2 mana you can get agatha's soul cauldron which everyone knows is a busted card, he's not as versatile and easier to take out, but he can be abused early for an extra copy of competitive activated abilities (arcum daagson specifically comes to mind).
Marvin poses a threat, because if left out, you can drop another creature with a powerful tap effect and as players cant respond until you do anything after playing a creature with a powerful tap effect, it can nearly guarantee you get to use said tap ability.
Time to make a sultai Marvin copying deck to infinitely untap my lands
so to my understanding with 1 Marvin IT would lose the ability of llanowar elves once the llanowar elves leaves the Battlefield. Does that mean in this case it wouldnt lose that ability. Also are there any crazy Combos with that.
Layers are checked constantly. So as soon as the Elves leave play, Marvin (and Sakashima) would lose that ability.
If you had a Horseshoe Crab and anything ability that taps for 2 mana, that's infinite mana right there.
I’ve got a fun one for you.
I have Chains of Mephistopheles and Talion’s Messenger on the battlefield with at least one card in hand. I attack with Talion’s Messenger. How many counters do I put on target faerie?
Chains is a replacement effect. And Talion's Messenger only cares about the cards you discard with their ability. I've not had much experience with Chains, but looks like you would be discarding two cards here. One from Chains and one from Talion's ability, so depending on how many cards in your hand, a maximum of 2 counters.
I’m confused on why the original doesn’t get sakashimas bounce effect because it should update Marvin with a new ability right nvrmind saw pinned comment
you should explain how Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth broke the game in commander back in 2016 when oath of the gatewatch came out
How did it break the game?
I'm curious about this. This was during my "off" period. Care to elaborate?
@@attackoncardboard there was a time where you could use wastes that became colorless swamps to pay for eldrazi spells with colorless costs, the game would break because a "colorless swamp mana" would get used to pay for something thats impossible and there was no rules to support the interaction
the big rules change for commander was, your mana sources can now make mana outside of your commanders colors if it was able to, since the old rules state that mana you would float outside of your commander colors would be colorless. making it so mana floats any color it could produce fixed this
@b1ackgamma interesting. Always wondered what spawned that rules change.
Now for the timestamp thing if both enter at the same time, if you had it so Marvin applied his effect after Saka's. Would marvin be the one with two instances of Saka's ability?
Assuming you had a Marvin in play for Saka to copy, yes :)
I'm still not sure on how Marvin and Sakashima looks like before the Llanowar elves enters the battlfield.
Has Marvin the "return to your hand" activated ability? Whithout other creatures it seems that the dependancy still exists, but is different...
Marvin always gets the bounce ability since that is given to Sakashima as part of the layer 1 copy effect rather than a normal ability granting effect. Because Marvin is getting an ability from his effect, Sakashima will be dependent on him.
I made a small mistake. See the pinned comment for more info 🙂
So, suppose I control Rishkar, Peema Renegade with a counter on it and Marvin without a counter on it. In that case, it's also relevant which permanent entered the battlefield first while determining whether Marivn can tap for green or not?
wouldnt marvin also have sakishimas ability?
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
When they tell you mtg is a simple game.
Anytime someone mentions Layers, my eyes glass over.
Shouldn’t Marvin gain Sakashima’s bounce ability? Or am I missing something about the timing?
Yes. That one will get stolen specifically because it's granted as part of the copy effect rather than as a normal ability granting effect. That means it happens on layer 1, which is before either of the Marvin ability stealing effects are applied on layer 4. Marvin will then copy that ability, then Sakashima will copy it back leading to them having 1 and 2 instances of it respectively.
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
Doesn't really matter much cause either way you end up with using timestamp order, but isn't there no dependency between the two at all? Neither ability is changing the text or existence of the others' ability, they both have "this gains all activated abilities..." applying one doesn't change the effect of the other right?
Applying one does change the other though? If Marvin gains a new activated ability, so will Sakashima. If Sakashima gains a new activated ability, so will Marvin. Theyre both dependent on each other.
Sakashima gaining an ability would change what abilities Marvin gains, and vice versa. So they are dependent.
If a new ability adding effect comes into play then Marvin will depend on it and it will wedge itself in before him, right? Doesn't this apply to Sakashima's return to hand ability as well since it is from a different ability than the one in the delendency loop?
If you mean someone playing another clone that ignores the legend rule (maybe spark double), then all 3 will have a dependency loop and apply in timestamp order of Marvin -> Sakashima -> Spark Double.
If you instead mean something that just adds an activated ability to something (Maybe you put Dual Casting on your Llanowar Elves), then Marvin and Sakashima will both be dependent on that, but it won't be dependent on them so it applies first, then the other two apply in timestamp order due to their dependency loop.
What if instead of adding a new creature with an ability to the board, we add a new ability to Sakashima via card effect? Will Marvin update copying everything on Sakashima and then after that will Sakashima update copying everything on Marvin? Or will Marvin ignore new effects added to Sakashima because of the dependency rule, even if we are ignoring it and going by timestamp?
So, both Marvin and Sakashima will be dependent on the new activated ability (perhaps from something like Splinter Twin), but the ability is not dependent on either of them. Because of that, you apply the new effect first, then Marvin and Sakashima in timestamp order. Marvin will have one instance of the Splinter Twin ability, and Sakashima will have 2.
Read the cards (watch a video, read the rules and call a judge) explains the card.
I will say I think "reading the card explains teh card" was always a fandom joke and not in any way an actual thought from WotC. Otherwise they wouldn't have a rule book that could kill you if it fell of a shelf onto your head.
@@jacobbrown9894 for sure, just adding a () to the joke
@@jacobbrown9894 Going to nitpick you there but its only 296 pages long in its PDF and DOCX formats as of September 2024.
So if it was translated into a A4 sized book first the physical page amount would be halved (printing on bothsides) into 148 pages so it is not that thick of a book.
Hi AoC!
I asked a group of judges that couldn’t give me an unique answer, they didn’t agree on it, so I came to you,
The card is Bestial Fury, it has an unique updated oracle text regarding a trigger with a draw:
“When it ETB’s, draw a card at THE BEGINNING OF THE NEXT TURN’S UPKEEP”
Cool, what if the next turn has more than one upkeep?
Note that the text is different from the regular “draw a card at the beginning of the next upkeep”
Bestial fury has this unique text
Would you help me answer this question? Thanks!
That is actually the standard templating for those kinds of effects. Mishra's Bauble, Portent, Arcane Denial, and tons of other similar cards also use it.
Conversely, I think Archangel Avacyn is the only one that uses "at the beginning of the next upkeep", though plenty use that for other parts of the turn.
That being said, while I would think it only triggers on the first upkeep, I've had a hard time finding anything that clarifies it.
It should only trigger once.
603.7b A delayed triggered ability will trigger only once-the next time its trigger event occurs-unless it has a stated duration, such as “this turn.” If its trigger event occurs more than once simultaneously and the ability doesn’t have a stated duration, the controller of the delayed triggered ability chooses which event causes the ability to trigger.
Projenitor mimic copies an enchantment that Bello, bard of the brambles, is currently making a creature. Progenitor mimic would copy the enchantment, but still be a creature on your turn. If bello leaves, projenitor will no longer be a creature on your turn. Does it's effect do nothing?
It still makes copies of itself. In the same way that
"Marvin has all activated abilities of other creatures with different names"
doesn't care if the creature with the ability is Marvin,
"At the beginning of your upkeep, of this creature isn't a token, make a token copy of this creature"
doesn't care if it's source is a creature. In both cases "Marvin", or "this creature" means the same thing as "this permanent".
I would like to point out to anyone who gets mad at um actually for getting this wrong (not saying the video is mad im saying some of the viewer on this video are mad). That they openly talk about not being perfect amd even have a section of the show where they share corrections from fans from previous episode
There are thousands of cards in magic and unless you are deep into the game you WILL make mistakes. Please, forgive um actually and give them a calm and collected correction without insulting them
In this instance, the Content Creator in question has still left the video up and has made no effort to attempt to correct the mistake. All that needs to be done is either a community post, take the video down or a pinned comment at least.
Could you explain whether or not Marvin or Sakashima would still have the activated ability from the Llanowar Elves if the elf card leaves the battlefield? (Or if a token Copy of Marvin is made; or if it were Blinked or Phased out for example, and the board state changed before it returned?) This may seem like a rookie question but I think even before Marvin there was already a lot of confusion about copies, tokens, clones, and shapeshifer/changeling. Imagine you're 12 years old for example, and there's no Judge around just your know-it-all pal who in fact doesnt know it all...😂
Marvin (and therefore Sakashima) continously checks what's on the board, if not then it couldn't gain the abilities of creatures entering after it, which also means that if creatures leave the battlefield, their abilities will be lost, and as such, blinking Marvin won't change anything on which abilities he have.
But he'll count as a new objet toward abilities with a limited number of uses and will have regain summoning sickness preventing him from using abilities requiring to tap.
Marvin would also have the activated ability: "2UU: return sakashima..." right? Ita also an activated ability
See pinned comment 🙂
I need help, please explain why if someone uses ashiok dream render and mill a gaea's blessing the cards put in the graveyard from my library are still exile even thou they have to Return do gaea's resolves after the exiling
Because Gaea's Blessing has a triggered ability, which gets placed on the stack after Ashiok's ability has finished resolving.
marven & saka both also get the tag that they can't copy from marven, regardless of what name they have. So even if they can copy from each other, we should have at max. marven copy elf & saka copy elf, then marven copy saka & saka can not copy any marven! & saka may copy it self. So that adds up to 4 of the elf tap for green.
That's not correct.
201.5b If an ability of an object refers to that object by name, and an object with a different name gains that ability, each instance of the first name in the gained ability that refers to the first object by name should be treated as the second name.
Example: Dimir Doppelganger says “{1}{U}{B}: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. Dimir Doppelganger becomes a copy of that card and gains this ability.” Dimir Doppelganger’s ability is activated targeting a Runeclaw Bear card. The Doppelganger becomes a copy of Runeclaw Bear and gains an ability that should be treated as saying “{1}{U}{B}: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. Runeclaw Bear becomes a copy of that card and gains this ability.”
Does the copy really work (newie question)? Doesn't the copy of Marvin got also the Text "Marvin[..] has all activated abilities [..] that don't have the same name as this creature."
Sakashima would have that text to, but the Card name is Sakashima the Imposter, not Marvin...and only Marvin has all the abilities, or?
If not: And would Sakashima get Marvins abilities? The text says, only from creatures with not the same name. And the name is Marvin, or?
Or did i mixed up something :-)
Anywhere you see the text "Marvin" in the ability, it gets replaced by Sakashima's name :)
201.5b If an ability of an object refers to that object by name, and an object with a different name gains that ability, each instance of the first name in the gained ability that refers to the first object by name should be treated as the second name.
Example: Quicksilver Elemental says, in part, “{U}: Quicksilver Elemental gains all activated abilities of target creature until end of turn.” If it gains an ability that says “{G}: Regenerate Cudgel Troll,” activating that ability will regenerate Quicksilver Elemental, not the Cudgel Troll it gained the ability from.
“Popular UA-camr “ well thank you !!!!
I left a clue right at the start 😂
OK here's a question! What if! You have Marvin out! Then storm the festival hitting Marvin and saka! You keep the new Marvin leaving the Marvin and saka being played at the same exact time...(saka targeted the old marvin to copy)
Can you apply the layers a different way?
It would basically just be reversed. Sakashima will have 1 set of abilities, Marvin would have 2.
@@attackoncardboard makes sense...dope cards pretty cool ngl
And of course you decide which order the timestamps for the new ones apply in if they enter at the same time.
aaaaaaaand this is why marvin is colorless for the purpose of commander balancing purposes because if he had any colors and was your commander, he is confusing and gets out of hand quickly with any copy effects.
Like I mentioned in the video, regular copy effects aren't breaking things here because of the name clause. Sakashima and Psychic Paper is what you need 😁
So here’s a question- you have all 3 creatures in play. What happens if lanowar elves gets bounced?
Any time anything happens, Layers get checked. So they'll lose the Llanowar ability
Do you even need the elf in this example? Sakshima already has an activated ability for Marvin to copy.
I DO actually have a question about Rendmaw. If you have a mycosynth lattice in play will playing a land that does not have two types cause him to trigger. I'm aware that they would trigger an etb effect like panharmonicon. However, I'm uncertain about the specific interactions about the special game action of playing a land for turn. Does the game need to KNOW the land in your hand has two types, or will it having two types once it's entered the battlefield be enough? I partially blame wotc for lumping both triggers into the somewhat murky "play" action.
I hope you can go into this; because, it'll decide if a mycosynth lattice will be a good addition or not.
Mycosynth lattice only add the artifact card type to permanents, i.e. cards and tokens on the battlefield, so when you play a land that doesn't natively have a second card type it won't trigger Rendmaw.
@@Sephiroth517 do you know the relevant rules that apply to this interaction? Everything that isn't a land needs to enter the stack, where it would be checked for the correct typing. Lands go from a hidden zone where their characteristics aren't known, onto the battlefield where they will be artifact lands.
@@raze667 cards in your hands are not hidden to the game mechanics, nothing is...
Anytime you play a card, Rendmaw ability will trigger to check it's types to see if he create a token and put it on the stack, or not.
That happens as soon as you play the card, before the card itself enters the stack, if it's a spell (like the "when you cast this spell" effects on Ulamog), or directly enters the battlefield if it's a land.
And so, before the lattice indeed add artifact to the card's existing types.
@@Sephiroth517 again do you have relevant rules for that? "When you cast" is when the spell is on the stack not before. Otherwise anything that would trigger would be under the spell. There is no stack to delay the land from already being an artifact once it hits the battlefield. Also there absolutely are hidden information zones. Every card in your deck is nothing but a"card" until is it revealed.
Marven is scary mana card.
Layers break my brain 🤕
Soo...why Sakashima's activated return effect isn't copied on Marvin?? Marvin would see this ability manifest on Sakashima, wouldn't it? I don't see a timing exception on Marvin's text :/
That one will get stolen specifically because it's granted as part of the copy effect rather than as a normal ability granting effect. That means it happens on layer 1, which is before either of the Marvin ability stealing effects are applied on layer 4. Marvin will then copy that ability, then Sakashima will copy it back leading to them having 1 and 2 instances of it respectively.
@@seandun7083 I have to say @attackoncardboard should have clarified this, seeing as many people left confused about this ability getting copied in the comments, and that the whole video was about copying effects!
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
So if marvin is copying multiple tap abilities from multiple creatures, say lanowar elves and royal assasin, does marvin have to tap and pick a single ability or does it tap being able to destroy a tapped creature and also generating a green mana at the same time?
Tapping him only pays for one ability in the same way that you can't use a single Red mana to activate Shivan Dragon multiple times. Of course if you have something like Horseshoe Crab you could untap him and do another. If you have 2 Wall of Roots, Marvin would have 2 instances of the "once per turn" ability and could activate both of them once per turn.
What if Marvin and an experiment kraj enter simultaneously(say from Brago) and both enter with +1/+1 counters( say from grumgully). Did then having the same time stamp make things harder
If 2 objects enter at the same time, they get timestamps in APNAP order. That means, any controlled by the player whose turn it is get the earliest timestamps, then we go around in turn order. If 2 or more have the same controller, that player chooses the order as they enter.
613.7m: If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, their relative timestamps are determined in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). Objects controlled by the active player (or owned by the active player, if they have no controller) have an earlier relative timestamp in the order of that player's choice, followed by each other player in turn order.
@@seandun7083 perfect, thank you
Im heartbroken with the bans
Sakashimer the Impasta.
what happens when Ojer Taq, Deepest Foundation and Silverquill Lecturer interact? do you just get a token and a land or can you get like 3 lands?
Copying a spell creature is not the same as creating a token. So Silverquill wont interact with Deepest Foundation. I'm not sure where the lands come into play here?
@@attackoncardboard oh i mean if you get a token of Ojer you would have either 1 or 3 of those tokens, but they would still come under legendary rule and get destroyed?
and when Ojer gets destroyed, it turns into the land temple of civilisation.
so guess my question was, how many tokens are created and can the created tokens turn into the land side of Ojer or do tokens not have double sides?
@@isnilaluneIf you demonstrate Ojer Taq, you only get one token copy. You copy the spell which becomes a token, but that isn't the same as creating a token.
Then, you check state based actions and see that you now control 2 of them, so you choose one to sacrifice. If you sacrifice the token, it ceases to exist rather than coming back.
If you sacrifice the original though, you can flip it while also keeping the token since the token has a different name than the land on the back.
@@seandun7083 thank you :)
would marvin not gain activated abilities if they are granted? like the sakashima bounce, what about paradise mantle?
I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.
In the case of Paradise Mantle, it depends on Timestamps. If Marvin comes into play *after* the Mantle has been equipped, yes. The creature will gain that ability before Marvin copies everything. If Marvin is in play first, they apply their copy effect *before* Mantle gives the creature the activated ability.
Would a Mairsil, the Pretender have his activated abilities copied from a Marvin?
Yeah. Both are on layer 6, but since what Marvin's ability does depends on what abilities Mairsil gets, we apply Mairsil first due to dependencies. (In the Sakashima example both depend of the other so we use timestamps to break the tie). Mairsil steals abilities from all the Caged things, then Marvin steals the abilities from Mairsil and all your other creatures.