Colorado's Tennessee Pass...Could it be reopened?
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- Опубліковано 9 лип 2024
- We take a quick visit to Union Pacific's former Denver & Rio Grande Western mainline over Tennessee Pass on July 14 and 16 2023 to see the condition of the line today.
We'll look at some of the challenges to reactivating the old D&RGW, as well as visit places that generated traffic to this line in the past such as Mears Junction and Poncha Junction.
A nice little visit to imagine "what if...)
I hope they turn this line into a tourist line, it's absolutely STUNNING and it deserves to be reborn.
- and perhaps some Amtrak business?
@@dennisyoung4631 no. Just absolutely no.
@@ChargerusPrime honestly these old mainlines could be used for alternate traffic, that being amtrak. doubt the us government would actually take care of it
@@AutoRacingNR2003 precisely why I said no. Besides, class 1 though it was, it should be a tourist line now. It's too beautiful not to be.
@@dennisyoung4631 It passes though a major ski resort, Beaver Creak at the west end of the main ski resort cluster, and Salida, which also has a smaller ski resort, but is very out of the way if your trying to get to Denver. It had the potential to replace traffic along the Amtrak line between Glenwood Springs and Denver, which stops feet from the lifts at Winter Park and has a spur to Steamboat. Winter Park to Denver is right now very lucrative and sells out. That is the better tourist line.
It would be great if the Royal Gorge Route tourist train ran past Parkdale, all the way up to Minturn. That would be one great train ride.
Yeah! Me too!
I've lived in Colorado since I was 2. Words cannot describe how happy I would be to see Tennessee Pass reopen.
Let me point out a few factors about this video:
1. It was stated in PENTREX'S "TRIBUTE TO TENNESSEE PASS", that their was the slight possibility of BNSF purchasing the line after U.P. closes it to their own through traffic. IF BNSF actually did, not only they would spend much dollars upgrading the route but to also utilize it as a new gateway route west to California via trackage rights over the U.P.
2. The year 1989 saw this route incorporated into Southern Pacific's CENTRAL CORRIDOR route between California's BAY AREA & the Midwest whether it was SP & D&RGW merging or D&RGW purchasing SP. The end result was that freight traffic EXPLODED to level's not seen since WWII. Not only did it brought a decent number of scheduled coal, general merchandise & FAST intermodals trains, but it made into a TUNNEL MOTOR railroad with the arrival SP & SSW diesels along the arrival of SP'S NEWEST diesels for TACONITE trains. Let's not forget from 1991-1996 a wide variety of FOREIGN POWER from neighboring railroads & LEASE companies could be found occasionally making this route colorful on any day of the week.
There was talk in the early 2000s of using the pass for empty/light tonnage trains to free up capacity on the main but then the 2008 mess hit, the economy tanked and further talk of reactivation ceased. With the railroads going to PSR and driving away customers I don't foresee the Pass coming back to life anytime soon. Excellent video, thanks much!
Yup. No companies are looking to build new Mfg plants either since younger workers have zero interest in manual labor jobs. US is moving into its collapse phase: 370% Debt to GDP (Gov't + Corp + Consumer), Demographics cliff ( ~ $70T in unfunded pension & entitlements), over regulation, and declining Oil production.
@@guytech7310 Couldn't have said it better.
@guytech7310 your sentiment about the younger generation is wholly out of touch.
@@odiejlg I thought the same thing. It's the typical "Kids these days!" complaint.
@guytech7310 Has nothing to do with younger laborers not wanting to work in factories, and more that the corporations would rather pay someone in Mexico or Southeast Asia 20-30 cents on the dollar. Americans cost more. They (EDIT: Younger Americans) expect higher standards of workplace safety and benefits, neither of which are free.
As a Rio Grande fan, I would love to see the line over Tennessee Pass reopened. Perhaps as a short line and/or tourist line, imagining the passengers to see the top peaks of the Rockies, canyons and valleys.
And as a narrow gauge fan, I had a thought of what if the Rio Grande didn't scrap both the Valley Line and the Marshall Pass Line and used them to carry tourists instead like the Silverton Branch? It'll be fantastic for narrow gauge fans like myself. Fictional name: Poncha & Marshall Scenic Railroad.
I suppose one saving grace is that one can drive over Marshall Pass and see what once was.
@@RailwayProductionsMarshall pass?
I hope it WILL re-open. That line has been out of service for far too long.
Same
Working on it
WHY ??
@@stevenlitkey9354 Well, have you watched this video?
@@andrewcrumb8027 Record profits, PSR, road trains doubling in length, crewcuts, pushback on safety regulations, why would any railroad invest in a costly infrastructure project. Corporate America, do more, MUCH MORE $$$, with less, on the backs of the workers.
Hi Les, I’m glad I get to see your Face for the First Time, and thanks for a piece of History in Tennessee Pass 😁🚂
Glad you enjoyed!
I like visiting the Snoqualamie tunnel here. It's been abandoned then taken over by the Washington Trails group and is now being maintained for hiking, biking, and horseback riding. 2 mile long tunnel with a really nice scenic park at the other end.
Man... I had NO IDEA that the Old Locomotive Shop in Salida was still standing even as of the Summer of 2023!!! O_O' That really is incredible if you ask me.
I tell ya.... hoping the Tennessee Pass route can be reopened as a through route again is high on my list of railfan dreams, the top most railfan dream of course being hopefully if My No. 1 Favorite Steam Locomotive aka Frisco 1522 can get the chance to run again for a third life. ^^
As a photographer I'd LOVE to go shoot trains there with 4K and a drone. But I don't think I'll stand there and wait...
I live in East Tennessee and we once had the tweetsie railroad, TN, western n.c R.R. It was narrow gauge too. I would love to see some of these old roads come alive,it would be supported more than what a lot of people think. Our mainline here is the old clinchfield R.R ( CSX) . Unicoi county Tennessee. Thanks for all your work
Reminds me of the Chicago Rock Island line that ran between Colorado Springs and Limon Colorado.
Fantastic video. Nice to see how the shape of the line is in as of 2023. Lots of railfans want the line to open but from a railroad view it’s not economical. It’s technically out of service not abandoned (I know some know this but for those that didn’t know) As mentioned before it’s a wait and see what happens 😎
One thing I took way is driving the line it's just miles and miles and miles of empty railroad. Not much different from Raton/Glorieta except for the massive Federal, State and Local investment. (And the recent quiet investment from BNSF for who-knows-what reason...)
Condition wise, The line from TP to Minturn is very different than TP to Salida. The western side has extensive damage, very extensive overgrowth, and some places (Belden) are really bad.
@@RailwayProductionsLet’s hope for the best!
There's something else; UP has been fighting a legal battle with person/group that is trying to get a the STB and courts to declare it abandoned and have the entire line transferred to them. Apparently UP refused to sell it and this group or person claims that it could be reactivated for some kind of freight and also as a tourist line. This was at least a year ago or so ago so; and I have no idea what became of the issue. Pretty much everyone on the various rail forums said the case was nuts and that it would just lose money if UP did transfer it.
I’m glad I get to see your face for the first time, Les, and thanks for a piece of history about Tennessee Pass. I sure hope someone will find a good idea to re-open the line. It has been out of service for far too long since 1997.
Tennessee Pass is also the place where Warner Bros filmed the 1995 movie Under Siege 2 Dark Territory directed by Geoff Murphy, co-starring Steven Siegel.
I was with SP at the time. Two SP crew members were employed as extras and were among the first victims to be ‘killed’. 😅
@@FishKepr I think it was all just special affects to make it look like they got killed. At least I hope it was just special affects.
New subscriber: Very nice video. I'd love to see more content like this. Thanks for being there and sharing. 🚂🚃🚃🏝
I was a fireman on the Pueblo-Minturn run in 1978-79. I worked the helper pool in Minturn, so I worked up and back to Tennessee Pass everyday (and night). Some thoughts:
The Monarch Pass quarry produced limestone for the steel mill in Pueblo. It was a very difficult job because the terrain was so steep. I had a friend who worked that line. In the steam days, the crew used retainers to haul the cars down to Salida.
Salida was indeed a busy railroad town. The Pueblo guys originally terminated their runs here. A crew from Minturn then took the trains west. Salida was the “division point” until the “run-through” was initiated in the 60s. The division point changed to Minturn, so when I worked the mainline, we went all the way to Minturn, 181 rail miles from Pueblo.
Some bad accidents happened out of Tennessee Pass Tunnel on the west side. A train derailed in 1996 and killed two crew members, including engineer Jimmy Roybal from Pueblo. Unbelievable tragedy. When my fellow railroaders "talked railroad" in the cafe in Minturn, it was often about other accidents out of the tunnel. Fortunately, I only ran “lite engines” out of the tunnel back to Minturn and they were easy to control with dynamic brakes.
You're right about the boulders coming off the cliff near Belsen/Gilman. I hit one after days of rain loosened the rock. Smack in the middle of the track, but no damage to the helpers. Embarrassing, though!
I seriously doubt this line will ever reopen, unless Union Pacific decides to divert traffic here from the Moffat line. Or accepts the oil trains from the Uinta Basin as they have already done, pending approval. That is probably going to happen up north and good luck to the Colorado River.
Had the opportunity to travel to the Tennessee Pass Line Summers of 1995, 1996 & 1997! So glad Friends who knew the territory put together those trips! Awesome mountain railroading & great memories w/Friends, two of whom have since passed away. Thanks for your video and to other viewers/subscribers, make sure to get out and see railroading in person when you can. Enjoy on your own and w/Friends. Life is short and things change so quickly. Here's hoping that an economic justification surfaces and trains could move through this region again.
Think of how different things would be had UP not succeeded in undermining the Southern Pacific and Santa Fe merger.....
I think about that All The Time 👍👍
That merger should have NEVER been allowed to happen, BNSF should've never happened and UP SP should've never happened. Duopolies are stupid.
Thanks for the video of one of my favorite sections of railroad. My recollection is some government agency -- perhaps the state of Colorado -- would not allow Union Pacific to tear up the tracks due to the horrendous traffic jams UP experienced when it absorbed Southern Pacific in 1996. The government wanted a backup route in case UP didn't have enough capacity on the Moffatt Tunnel route.Also, I have long thought trains on the lower parts of the Tennessee Pass line could carry passengers and their equipment back upstream after they rafted down the Arkansas River, thus getting all those buses off the highway in the summer season. Can't remember if that idea was original with me or if there was actually some talk of it back in the day.
This reminds me of why the ex-NP Homestake Pass line is still sitting there like Tennessee Pass. Since the line sits on Federal parklands, BNSF has to deal with the US Forest Service and it's original lease conditions with the Northern Pacific. According to that arrangement, whoever owns the line will have to remove any earthen trace of it alongside the rail and infrastructure. So it's not surprising why it's just sitting there, abandoned for good.
@@bakerboat4572I drove from Butte to Bozeman one time and I didn't know it at the time but I saw it. The tracks are all intact I was out there June of 2023.
I absolutely ADORE my copy of the Tennessee Pass & the Royal Gorge Route film you produced some years ago, and I love this line very much. It would be amazing to see it return.
Glad you like Greg and my work on the feature program. Would love to see it reopened as well. Just have to wait and see.
I'm always amazed at how much research goes into some of these YT videos. Nice vid.
InTeReStiNg. Thank you for taking the time to document it. You RoCk. Cheers from Long Beach, Ca.
Great to see you on video and learn more about this!
I grew up in Colorado and i highly regret not riding over this line past Salida. I remember when they cut trains 1 and 2 back to Salida in the early 60s.
I have all ways been a fan of railroad since the day I got my first train set when I was little and grow even more of a fan over the years. Thank you very much for taking the time to give a little history of the railroad and for showing the before and after pictures and locations. The old red building that they had worked on the locomotives was cool to see and was surprised that it is still standing today. Does that building still have the old turn table? Again thank you for this video. 😊
I lived in Leadville when the Tennessee Pass tunnel collapsed, closing the highway above it. Union Pacific came up and rebuilt the tunnel so that CDOT could fix the highway. Every once in awhile, I would see UP up on the line (not on the rails themselves), doing periodic inspections. So the line is obviously out of service (I will confirm there are several boulders on the tracks at the location you mentioned.), but is being lightly maintained (probably just for safety). I suspect that it would be relatively easy to put the tracks back in service.
In essence the DRGW was a bridge carrier, most of the volume was overhead. As competition and economic changes reduced local traffic, branch lines were cut. A key to rail operations is asset utilization, the more traffic over fewer lines is more profitable.
After the UP merger the Tennessee Pass route and connections east over Pueblo were redundant: UP’s Sherman Hill was a better, higher capacity route. The grades and maintenance on Tennessee Pass were uneconomical and longer. So what traffic remained, mostly trackage rights granted under terms of UP-SP merger, did not justify both the Moffat Tunnel and Tennessee Pass.
Unless the business levels change, it will remained rail- banked.
Brings back old memories. When I very young, I took the train from Rifle through Tennessee Pass and the Royal Gorge to Denver. Back in the fun days of railroading.
I lived in BV and went to school there. I remember the trains going through. So loved Delaney's Depot when it was open best breakfast around. In 11th grade, I was with BV model railroad club back in 88 I believe. Alot of good people there. I believe they are all gone. Hope the trains come back 🙏
Thank you, beautiful documentary!
This sure was different but was one I glad enjoyed. Thanks for making this video, I highly enjoyed it as a long time railway production fan.
Glad you liked it. Yes, my first train video with no trains...
While I joined the live stream. The video wasn’t playing on my end and I had no Idea a glitch happened that stopped me from watching this video with everyone. Bad luck but even if, it is great to see current Tennessee Pass and even your self Les. It is a shame this route isn’t used because it’s beautiful. I think it should be either incorporated into the Royal Gorge Route Railroad or become its own because it looks like a great opportunity for its beauty and it is treasured by many but for now, it’s only a thought. Great video Les.
Glad you enjoyed. I would think that if Royal Gorge went to Texas Creek it would be a very scenic ride as well, but I suspect they feel that they have the right time-on-train for their target market.
@@RailwayProductions Probably, it might even cost them a lot of money they would spend on other things like maintenance. Thanks for the reply Les. These streams of yours grew a nice community on UA-cam.
I did a couple of student trips with the SP when I was laid off from the Santa Fe. It was the most scenic trip I ever had. Problem is rail traffic has dried over on the Moffat line, and throughout CO, that this line will never reopen. Thanks for the video.
Glad you enjoyed our little post. Thanks for watching!
@roberthoffman7559 What year was this??
@@Hogheadgolfer 1995
I ended up going back to Santa Fe/BNSF and stayed with them.
Your name sound familiar Hoffman? Hmmmmm. Greetings from roster 248.
This is a very unique video idea and I like the concept. I also think it is neat to see the man behind the voice. I have grown up with that voice for years in my favorite videos.
Glad you have liked my work. I've been blown away by folks that say that they've been watching my stuff since they were kids. As far as I was concerned, I was only shooting trains....
@@RailwayProductions Yes, I have been watching your video The Trains of Galesburg and Chicagos Metra both for 18 years now at this point. Two of my favorite videos that I have.
Once you close a line down, they rarely come back. This line presently needs very little to bring it back into service. That should be done, even if for now it's only used a tourist line.
Very interesting. Thank you
The only way economics make sense of opening this line back up is to do it in HO scale...
Great video! Very informative and interesting for an Aussie Rio Grande fan! Thanks for posting this… my model railroad is called the Alamosa Sub…so it has a lot of meaning to me!
Glad you enjoyed my little tour.
Neat video! Great history.
Great job, thanks for the work.
Thanks for watching!
Nice! Tennessee Pass yet part of the line sees tourist train operation through the Royal Gorge.
The yet to be built Uinta Basin Railway out in Utah is expected to add 8-13 oil trains daily on the Moffat Route. The Moffat Route is already running at least 10 daily trains. The future oil trains, along with the other freight trains, will likely max out capacity on the Moffat line. Several railroads have recently tried to reopen the line but are meeting fierce resistance. I believe Union Pacific will probably reopen Tennessee Pass for the oil trains, as they would have a hard time moving all those trains through Denver. The cost to rehibalate the line is upward of 200 million dollars.
On one had, if coal trains can run through metro Denver, so can heavier numbers of oil trains. On the other hand, the entire business case for the Unitah Basin railroad is to haul heavy, waxy crude out of northeast Utah. This is being proposed despite it being easier for Wasatch range refineries to get light, sweet crude (even by rail) from the Bakken, the Niobrara, even the Powder River basins. Frankly, it would be an easier case for the likes of Denver's Regional Transportation District RTD and Salt Lake City's UTA to fund a joint intercity commuter/tourist rail that would use both the Moffat route and a part of the Tennessee Pass route to about Minturn (for service to the Vail Valley's ski towns).
@@bradleyschwartze2575 It would make a excellent excursion train for sure! I read that one of the biggest problems with trying to re-open Tennessee pass was the Royal Gorge passenger train and Rock and Rail (a company that hauls rock out of Canon City, CO.) Both companies own a portion of that route and will not allow the trains to run through them. You could run trains from Glenwood Springs to possibly Leadville which would be nice
@@bradleyschwartze2575I heard the goal was to get it out of the wastach and to the Texas refineries? If that is the case Tennessee pass makes more sense if it's going down to Texas. Also Colorado is fiercely fighting and wants to use the expiring lease of the moffat tunnel (the city of Denver owns the tunnel) against the UP moving oil through Denver. That's why I see Tennessee pass being re open IF the goal is to move the oil to Texas refineries.
@@travelingtom923 I remember reading that when the UP sold the line through the Gorge to the tourist train company, UP retained trackage rights through the gorge. Presumably these could be transferred to another operator if the remainder of the line is ever sold. I'm not aware of what portion of the line Rock N' Rail owns. They haul rock from the quarry near Parkdale.
Amazing research effort! Thank you.
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it!
My mom used to live in the house that you see at the 4:15 and right around the 12:40 mark just south of the east end of Brown Canyon siding. It was already shut down when she lived there which is really sad because, man, the sound of those trains chugging uphill.
Wonderful video! I was most interested in the parts describing the rail lines in my home-town Salida. Salida used to be a crossroads because of all the surrounding industrial activity. Trains carried ores of various kinds from the mines, to and from the large smelter in Smeltertown (where my Great Grandfather came from Italy to work), on to the CF&I steel plant in Pueblo. Passengers going west and south. The narrow gauge to Alamosa actually continued on to Santa Fe where many New Mexicans (including my relatives) came to Salida for jobs. But eventually the jobs went away and so did much of the rail traffic through Salida. When doing my family tree I wondered why I had so many relatives living in Salida and then suddenly most of the relatives left--it was the lack of jobs. Today I have few high school friends or relatives living in Salida (sigh)
The rail helped stimulate tourism...and maybe tourism can bring the rails back again!
Thanks for your wonderful thoughts. Yes, this was an abbreviated history, one could indeed, at one time travel from Santa Fe to Salida on the narrow gauge
For that matter, one could travel from Salida all the way to Silverton.
Enjoyed hearing about your family, and yes, Salida has far fewer jobs than it once did.
@@RailwayProductions The D&RG(W) was built as narrow-gauge from Denver. It was slowly standard-gauged because of the Colorado Midland out of Colorado Springs was built as standard.
Traffic is the only reason for a railroad to exist.
Its nice to see the face of the nostalgic voice of the steam in the seasons series
I just see some old guy looking back at me...Glad you enjoyed.
Thanks for the history lesson.
Bob
great video on the history. being from Ohio my only experience with this line is the old Railworks route from way back. opening it now to have a gander! Already subscribed but another well earned like!
Very interesting. Thumbs up! :)
Greetings
Mega
Would love to hike that line. What a stunning line
I first visited Tennessee Pass in the 1970s on a motorcycle trip while Gilman was still an active town. Because of my focus on further west and Utah, I wasn't aware that the line was abandoned until this last decade. This was very educational, interesting, and sad...It's amazing the rail network that existed through out the west for the better part of a century, and the labor that went into creating it. A small tourist train running from Pueblo through to Avon with stops in at least Salida and Leadville would be a great canyon and mountain ride, it would take no small investment...
Since you've been away, not sure you are aware of the Royal Gorge Scenic Railroad that runs from Canon City to Parkdale and back. They own that portion jointly with a railroad that hauls rock from Parkdale called Rock and Rail. The legal name of the railroad is Royal Gorge Express. The two owners seem to be making a go of it.
A tourist line for people who would love to cross the divide in the comfort of couch with a sky dome. I know that the refreshing the tracks and all would be be enormous. Beautiful country.
The Amtrak California Zephyr runs along the Moffat line that made this one redundant, so arguably we do have that. Personally I think the Moffat line is even more scenic than this one - high vistas, many tunnels (more than 50 if memory serves), deep canyons, and so on. The only thing this has that the Moffat line doesn't is the Royal Gorge section, which indeed is a tourist line. So, while having this as well would be nice, the best is already open with what you describe.
Fascinating and informative!
So many lines are at or near capacity, so this would be good to help takes the strain off the line visa the Moffett Tunnel
Take it for what it's worth, but there is a stronger possibility now of the Tennessee Pass being activated again than there was 20 years ago. A few years ago, a shortline tried to force the UP to sell the trackage rights so they could move freight and passengers. The Surface Transportation Board said no. Then, in 2022, the STB approved the building of the Uintah Basin Railroad in eastern Utah. From what I gather, this line would be able to supply up to 10 crude trains that are 2 miles long each destined for Gulf coast refineries. Those trains would run through the Moffat Tunnel and would require some of the BNSF trains and UP trains to run over Tennessee Pass in order to keep the Transcontinental line from getting backed up. There's a lot of articles and a lot of protests from people in Salt Lake City all through Vail and the Front Range.
Yeah I should have mentioned, but I wasn't sure of the current status.
My special needs son loves trains 🚆🚃🚄🚅🚇🚈🚉🚊🚝🚞🚋🛤🚂 but he is disappointed that the former Denver & Rio Grande Western railroad Tennessee Pass line is still closed but hopes that it is purchased and/or reopened by RJ Corman, Watco, Rail USA, Genesee & Wyoming, or Rock & Rail as a shoreline for freight trains or By the Colorado department of transportation or the Canon City & Royal Gorge Route as a tourist railroad. He also hopes that the other standard gauge and narrow gauge lines mentioned in this video are rebuilt and used again. But he does not want that to be wishful thinking he wants it to be a reality! It is his one of his dreams to see abandoned and removed railroad tracks to be rebuilt, restored, and used again. He thinks the Tennessee Pass line would be a great tourist railroad with the variety of scenery between Dotsero and Parkdale he they should especially go for that!
As a little kid I saw abandoned tracks in Lakewood, Colorado, and was quite saddened that they were never to be used again. Even as a little kid, I accepted that they were never going to be restored. But then, to my surprise, many years later it was rebuilt (entirely unrecognizably) into the W Line light rail. So sometimes things are possible that even a child would think are wishful thinking. Though that was a suburban route where there would be a lot of passengers (the W Line is consistently packed, very well utilized), this line is pretty much in the middle of nowhere. Passenger services exist over the Moffat Line west of Denver as the Amtrak California Zephyr, which in my opinion is even more scenic - highly recommend a ride on that.
@@quillmaurer6563 thank you we are glad you agree with us 👍😊😀☺ your reply gives my son hope.
With the slow realization that the US stupidly allowed the Chinese to steal our manufacturing, and the late attempts to incentivize mining and production domestically, I would imagine there will again be need for rail. Wonderful video.
Um I don't think railways really lost much since the late 70s....the regional rail boom of the early 80s and container trains made railways pretty much the leader in freight....sadly in my rail career the big shots really don't want to deal with box car traffic...
With trains having to wait on either side of Donner Pass,perhaps one day UP Will decide to restore the missing,removed sections of track,suppose it's possible this line could also come back to life!
@@jasonalperin9414 it's more maintenance so highly doubt it....slot of those trains are waiting on fresh crews...if a a railway needed 50 men they are only gonna hire half and after testing and drug test only 11 or less will make it...the railways want the least amount of mileage from A to B...and with that said this just adds to fuel miles...railways are cheap to say the least....
@@ShawnCalay-hi6gystep over a dollar to save a dime.
@@ShawnCalay-hi6gy I don't take drugs, where do i sign up?
We rode on the Royal Gorge Route this spring, and the engineer was saying that Union Pacific has contacted them about re-opening the Tennessee Pass. Both the price and schedule proposed by UP were laughed off, and there hasn’t been much contact since. Essentially, UP wanted them to foot most of the bill, but give UP priority to run trains over their scheduled tourist excursions.
The only interest Royal Gorge Route has in re-opening the pass is running ski trains to Salida. Since they’re the ones who own the track through the gorge, UP can’t open the entirety of the pass without coming to some sort of agreement with them.
Very interesting. I know in some of the posturing union pacific has said that it has trackage right through the gorge
Royal Gorge Xpress they said that they do not.
.
Interesting to see how this plays out.
A really great video. Knowing what has transpired in railroading since UP closed it in 1997, sometimes I feel that UP closed this line a bit prematurely. From the mid 90s up until the early 2010s, during that 10-15 year period was when coal traffic peaked. Probably the most amount of coal trains ever run coming from Colorado, Utah and the Powder river basin during that time. Because UP closed the line during that peak, the moffat route was pretty much maxed out in train capacity for many years and this route could have alleviated all that congestion even if they had ran directional traffic. But UP was correct to a degree, this was one of the most expensive routes to maintain, and the amount of traffic running during the last year that it was open wasn't that great. So even if they had kept it open for 10 more years during all that peak coal traffic, I am honestly not sure if it would have still been worth it to keep it open because of the large overhead. And obviously today and even in the last decade as coal traffic has fallen way off, it wouldn't be worth to keep it open. The line is just not practical or economical in today's world unfortunately. Even if a new owner buys it from UP, and runs different traffic, I don't think its worth it.
Stephan Soloviev of course wanted to buy it, but I'm not sure of the economics for him unless he planned to buy land along the line and plant more grain. Of course he never said, but that point is moot now anyway.
When the ex-MoPac main line east of Pueblo was decommissioned through freights over the pass were finished. I remember seeing a lot of SP trains going through Reno,NV that would eventually go through the TP. It was a alternate route from the west coast to KC and Chicago. Since MoPac, Rio Grande and SP are under UP that competing line was done.
@@HitsTownUSAI don't see Tennessee pass ever being used again, without that ex mopac line being rebuilt
To my understanding the reason this line was put out of service (not officially abandoned, I believe the Department of Transportation or maybe even Department of Defense denied authorization to abandon it in case it became of wartime strategic importance) wasn't the decline of industry and branch lines in the area. It was mostly a through-traffic line, and once served as a primary route across the Rockies. But as railroads consolidated, both this and the originally D&SL Moffat line that never reached Salt Lake City fell under Union Pacific. Union Pacific built the Dotsero cutoff to connect the lines a little ways west of Eagle (Dotsero). This provided a far more direct route across the Rockies, and made the Tennessee Pass route redundant. Thus it was not so much industrial decline along the route but railway consolidation that made this one unnecessary.
It could certainly be re-activated, the federal government insisting this option remain in place (so no selling off the land or building anything over it), but unless there's a major increase in rail traffic there'd be little reason to do so. Well maybe some logical ones, but no economic ones with how railroads think these days - it could serve as a backup or reliever, but no businesses these days want to have any sort of redundancy or resilience, that costs money the CEO and shareholders could be earning, and if the lack of resilience hurts the company said CEO and shareholders don their golden parachutes and leave it as someone else's problem.
I'm guessing consolidation is the cause of many abandoned lines, at one time there were competing companies building lines to serve the same journeys but over time consolidation put once competing lines under the same ownership and they chose to only keep one of them. In a few cases (such as the Joint Line from Denver to Pueblo), the two competing lines were close together and once put under common ownership were instead used as a double-track.
^Best post in thread with welcome insights.
Your timeline and rational are pretty good. Please note the Moffat Tunnel was built by the city of Denver and used by the Denver and Rio Grande for many years. The DRGW built the connection between the original D&SL line and the Rio Grande line. The purpose was to compete for transcontinental traffic with the Union Pacific. When UP eventually controlled the SP and DRGW this route became redundant. It now is railbanked.
In essence the DRGW was a bridge carrier, most of the volume was overhead. As competition and economic changes reduced local traffic, branch lines were cut. A key to rail operations is asset utilization, the more traffic over fewer lines is more profitable.
After the UP merger the Tennessee Pass route and connections east over Pueblo were redundant: UP’s Sherman Hill was a better, higher capacity route. The grades and maintenance on Tennessee Pass were uneconomical and longer. So what traffic remained, mostly trackage rights granted under terms of UP-SP merger, did not justify both the Moffat Tunnel and Tennessee Pass.
Unless the business levels change, it will remained rail- banked.
Dude you backdated the construction of the Dotsero cutoff by about 70 years. The cutoff was built in 1926, LONG before Union Pacific owned either line. Nevertheless, despite becoming a secondary thru route, Tennessee Pass was still used for over 70 years afterward
Great video, great info.
I enjoyed your video, Very informative and I like the use of the archived pictures. Sounds like you have 3 main issues here.
1. Mining depleted the easy veins.
2. Livestock ranches have been minimized and perhaps the processing plants opened within relative trucking distance, and finally,
3. The biggest impetus that will probably prevent reqrowth is the lack of available labor. Once the two main industries dwindled, the majority of people for, the most part, would have would have relocated elsewhere for employment.
A full blown mine (or any sizable manufacturing) won't just spring up. It will take years upon years for any commercial interest to start small, draw labor, and grow to the point where you will be able to utilize railroad support. Growth is slow. Rail doesn't want a customer now a days until he can promise the need for numerous cars per week, so they would snub the area until development had already blossomed.
Rail doesn't grow towns and industries anymore, it just waits until they are fully grown and fat before they try to start to feed off them. They are under a different business model now a days.
I wouldn't consider myself a train nerd (but according to my friends, liking them at all makes me a "train douche" as one of them put it, which admittedly made me laugh a lot, and still does years later) but dad showed me the Conway Scenic trains when I was young, and I have just always thought they were really cool machines. Years later I found myself living in Colorado, and while taking highway 24 to Leadville, my cousin and I stopped and wandered over here once - I sort of knew the history, but looked it up while I was there - I was _amazed_ and I just thought it was so dang cool. I still do. I have pictures of us at the portal, and I was bummed the entire time I didn't see a _single_ train run through Eagle. I wanted to so bad. Never made it to the Moffat, but was trying to, but it was tough not owning a car out there.
Anyway, nice to see this and _real_ excited to see it may open again - I don't know if I'll be back out west anytime soon, but seeing this makes me want to move back to Eagle and just get comfy between the river and the tracks. I miss that. Thanks for posting.
If they felt it necessary to use an older route to either four-passenger or freight service it is possible to use an old right-of-way depending on its condition
You have to remember that something that was built probably hundreds of years ago cost several times much more to rehabilitate and bring it up to modern requirements of safety
Billions of dollars
Thanks for the “history “. Very informative.
Nice video
Unfortunately, I think the only hope, which is extremely thin, is a tourist line. The grades are just too steep to battle when UP has other options. Salida would be a great base for a tourist operation but the startup costs would be phenomenal. So sad that we keep losing some of the most beautiful railroads (ie: Camas Prairie, some SP branches to the coast in Oregon) and will never be able to enjoy the unrivaled views that were only available from the trains.
Thanks so much for your informative video. Great information!
great yet also sad video 👍😥
Who knows, someday it might reopen but we'll just have to see.
Very informative, thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
@@RailwayProductions I did especially all the old pictures and line history.
Excellent video. I worked the helpers out of Minturn 1994-1995. I absolutely loved it. I’m still a RR employee, working out of SLC now. I visited TP last August 23rd. (The 25th anniversary of the last train). And I rode my dirt bike from Minturn to TP. I did a documentary on a rr FB page. Anyway, i’d like to see the line re-open as much as anyone. I’ll probably even try to put in a transfer to come work the helpers again. But this line is in desperate need of a lot of rehab. The rail is actually quite good. The ties need to be totally replaced. All of the electronics, signals, switch machines, etc need replaced. This is serious money. And then there’s the cost of just operating the line at this elevation, and the 3% grade. The winters are extremely expensive. Union pacific got rid of this line because they do not like mountains and they don’t like spending money. In my opinion, these rails will never see another train again. Like I said, I wish it was otherwise.
I sure hope you could go back, but I have the feeling if anything were ever to come of it, it would be a shoreline, non-union operation, but who knows. First thing to do is find a source of traffic...
What happened with the big wreck in 95? I'm sure you were employed when it occured. I find it interesting about the quiet investment from BNSF on the Raton/Glorieta sub? I'm a SF guy.
@@Efemedio1 as we all know, the only reason that the Raton and Glorieta subdivisions are even there is because of the massive amount of taxpayer money invested for the southwest chief over the past several years.
But talking with guys that I know that work out there, BNSF is investing, in things that are not covered by the various grants and so forth. They are using their own money.
Apparently the last round of semaphore replacements were done solely by BNSF and they weren’t the blades that have been causing any problems they were working fine.
Of course you talk to the railroaders and there are 1 million different ideas from them as what BNSF might do and of course the railroad has not said anything.
But a year or so ago BNSF CEO Katie Farmer rode a business train over the subdivisions as far as Lamy, New Mexico.
Now, perhaps she was sitting in the observation car taking pictures of the semaphores, but I really kind of doubt that, lol. But why was the CEO of the BNSF riding an office car train there?
Thanks for the history lesson, but in this case (Tennessee Pass) I don't think history will repeat itself. Beautiful as it is.
With some state support, the Tennessee Pass line could be purchased from UP and made into a passenger route again, similar to the Rocky Mountaineer luxury train. However, the State of Colorado's first passenger train priority should probably be: getting the new "Front Range" commuter line up and running between Ft. Collins & Pueblo.
It would be cool to have a seasonal tourist operation that transported recreational rafters up the river. Probably not enough revenue from that alone to keep up the maintenance though.
The Royal Gorge route sort of is that - tourist line using a small section of this trackage. But I doubt raft traffic would be enough to justify trains at all - they usually use buses, a couple old decrepit school buses towing trailers are enough for all the daily rafters and cost a lot less to operate than a train.
Thank you for putting this video together. Very informative and a reminder of how things used to be. I agree with ChargerusPrime that the line would be great for tourism. I would certainly take a ride on a passenger train riding through this area...dining car, observation car all while stimulating the local economy.
A few years ago I worked with Moffat County regarding county road crossings of the Tennessee Pass line. Because the line has not been formally abandoned such matters have to be approved by the Colorado Public Utilities Commission. In my conversations with the UP regarding the future of the line they expressed an intent to keep it in inactive status as a reserve line for traffic through the Moffat Tunnel which can only handle X number of trains per day. Reopening the line from Pueblo through Tennessee Pass and beyond would take a lot of reconditioning including all the signals not to mention bridge and culvert repair. The number of $1 million per mile was mantioned. Any future utility of the line has to do with much broader economics than just traffic generated in the area. It would be 90%+ through traffic rather than local traffic. Also, while there would be economic benefits to the Upper Arkansas Valley communities many would not welcome trains running through their towns again. I suspect that with the decline in coal traffic it is improbable that this line will ever be economic to operate again.
Good thoughts. Also another consideration, and I don't currently know where this stands, is the lease renewal for Moffat Tunnel. I can't imagine it, but if UP was not granted lease renewal then what? One line of thought would be reopen TP, but with the decline in coal another would be simply to run a local out of Grand Jct up the Craig Branch and send all the coal west. And I agree, there is likely not ever going to be an online shipper that alone would have enough traffic to keep the line open.
Very good content thank you ?
I wonder that how long until this mainline reopen?
While watching the part showing the Salida Shops, I can see a way of preserving it and some of the line, maybe. Hypothetically, with the right people and money, and I see the shops be restored in a way like Railroading Heritage of Midwest American and Kentucky Steam Heritage Corp. I can also see this "vision of an organization" (so to speak) aiming to find some ex-DRGW locomotives and rolling to preserve, specifically Tunnel Motors, GP30s, or any GP locomotives that still around with UP or a shortline. What I find that'd be really is, hypothetically, some people come together build an all new standard gauge D&RGW locomotive as replica since the standard gauge wasn't treated well with preservation. Thinking a C-48 2-8-0, K-59 2-8-2, or P-44 Pacific. I know this sounds very controversial, but it's something I see that'd be cool for the shop to be saved and what this "organization" might do, but it's all in dreams. But as you said, who knows what the future holds.
This indeed would be a nice area for a preservation line. Just $$$.
Yep, it all comes down to money.
Part of the problem with turning it into a museum is that it's arguably in the middle of nowhere. Hours drive from any major population center, so there wouldn't be many locals to visit it nor all that many people already visiting the area to stop by. The only ones who would come see it are the die-hards making a quite major trip specifically to see this.
As for a D&RGW GP30, the Colorado Railroad Museum (far more accessible) has one. Not sure it's current status, they got it when I was volunteering there about 11 years ago, it was in pretty derelict condition at the time but the plan was to do a full cosmetic restoration of it.
Union Pacific pulled out the line east of Pueblo which is what was the old Missouri Pacific line which Southern Pacific had trackage rights on and was the preferred route from California Bay area to Chicago besides the sunset route. I doubt Tennessee pass ever returns without it.
The UP broke the KC to Herrington KS part first, and came back west towards LA Crosse, where the MP ends. Now under K&O control, th3 line is in use until the CO/KS border, where at Towner, the Colorado Pacific RR has ownership west to NA Junction, about 35mi east of Pueblo. The line joins BNSF's Pueblo subdivision there. CPRR has some grain traffic and car storage going on now.
A lot of what Tennessee Pass was used for was feeding the creation of new steel in Pueblo. I don't think that realistically anywhere close to the whole thing would be reopened without the Pueblo mill resuming production of new steel and funding the reopening/reconnection of the old mines that fed it and/or funding new mines in the area. It would take a great deal of investment in the surrounding area to make Tennessee pass viable for anything but through traffic and even for through traffic it would struggle when Moffat is being underutilized
It's doubtful that it ever gets "officially" reopened. Economically, it wouldn't generate much revenue, if any. UP already has two lines through the Rockies, and it's just much easier for them to send most of their trains over Sherman Hill, the line and grades are much more suitable for heavy freight traffic.
Unfortunately as historic as it would be to bring it back its not economically practical. With no industries except for the small locals already, UP already has 2 lines over the Rockies, and the Moffat tunnel route has a lot easier grade and isn't that big of a difference in time and money to run that route right next to it.
That's why I did the little retrospective. Tennessee Pass had really been slowly dying since the end of World War II, but it was so slow that people really didn't notice until there was no locally generated traffic left after they load out at Malta closed and by then all the through traffic was already gone. Should have mentioned Leadville/Malta and the Climax traffic too.
@@RailwayProductionsThere was still a good amount of through traffic on the Tennessee Pass well into the early 90’s. Through freights from the West Coast on SP to Salt Lake, then interline with Rio Grande from Salt Lake to Pueblo and finally MoPac (UP post 1982) from Pueblo to KC/Chi.
Problem with it was the grade was so steep: 3% i believe. Beautiful line especially west of Red Cliff. Hope it can reopen some day, in some capacity.
Nice sort of shortened history of this line .GREAT JOB!!! Yeah the U.P. revitalized something called the Kansas Pacific rail road heading east from the east end of the Tennessee Pass line making this line redundant not long after the Union Pacific took over the Southern Pacific in 1996. There are players working to get control of this line but as of date I would have to say that no one is making the Union Pacific a decent offer for their line. If someone DID come up with a good fair offer Union Pacific would sell out immediately. So obviously the schemes and teams that have formed plans for this route are as of yet not well enough financed. But like YOU said these lines can ALWAYS be repaired and brought back IF you are willing to spend the money. IF that is.
To the UP the tax write off of a dead line determines the value of the line.
There was some talk of running tanker train out of untia basin in utah down here to grand junction then over Tennessee to Pueblo. I think that went a way. There used be a big coal mine there in battle mountain. Its sad to see those lines abandoned.
Hey Les
If Tennessee pass does come back
Will you do a return to Tennessee pass video?
Would love to go back and shoot in 4K with a drone if it ever happens!
@@RailwayProductions I hope so, too. Although part of the Tennessee Pass line through the Royal Gorge is still open, the rest of it has been out of service for far too long.
@@andrewcrumb8027 I suppose the big difference is that Royal Gorge Scenic and Rock and Rail only use a few miles of the line. Its really striking to drive by miles and miles and miles of empty railroad.
@@RailwayProductions I see. I wonder if they'll ever come to a decision to re-open more of the line or not.
Someone else commented on another video that potentially the 3% grade on the west side could be filled in and lengthened to bring it down to 2%! The steep grades are what make this line economically impractical to use.
The only train that goes by in Cañon City is the local UP train a couple times a week and the gravel train three or four nights a week.
Lots of history there, hopefully it does live on
Very soon!😊
Well done sir
Very interesting video. Love the historical contend! Have you done any vids on the line that used to run from Chama N.M. to Durango?
To make the Tennessee Pass Line work well for thru traffic not only will there have to be a good traffic source, but will also have to be realignment of the tracks thru Pueblo. Not sure how it is now, but when I was working the Joint Line in 2011 I learned it was not the most suitable for running trains thru. Very inconvenient, & would especially such for today average length trains. I think it would take some big money making trains to justify its revival as it's a very expensive line to maintain. Personally though I think it would be nice to see thru traffic again.
It would be great to see and hear about it getting reopened
If traffic on the Moffet Line continues to increase then UP needs to do the smart thing and reopen the line or possibly sell it to the BNSF.
I would turn it into a dinner line for steam locomotives. Restored dinner coaches, restored steam locomotives people would pay for that experience. They have a short line one between hill city and keystone South Dakota
Would really be a lovely line for such an operation, that is for sure.
Sad, but not likely to re-open. Just like "dormant" -Stampede- Homestake Pass. For Tennessee its the near 4 % grades, slide zones, and other operational and maintenance problems ( -Stampede- Homestake "only" has 2.2 %, but also has too many sharp curves and clearance problems for modern equipment to run over it). The most damning, UP's many alternative routes that are operationally and economically superior. If MoPac, SP / Rio Grande had stayed independent of UP, Tennessee would probably have stayed open. I find it very odd that the rails have not been lifted - as just about every other line in the west was lifted shortly after service was discontinued. I have a suspicion that there is another possible issue in why the lines haven't been torn up. Looking at all the numerous massive fills on -Stampede- Homestake, I see they are constructed primarily with mine tailings and mining waste rock. The cost of abandoning the line would likely include a massive environmental clean up cost, similar to the remedial super fund sites in the Silver Bow and Clark Fork River areas of Montana. Tennessee might have the same type of issues, having been constructed in mining territory also.
BNSF reopened Stampede pass in 1998 and currently is running trains over it.
@@devernepersonal3636 Yes, my mistake - I have a habit of getting names - Stampeded and Homestake swapped
Just a correction there: The steepest part of Tennessee Pass is 3%, not 4%.
From what I recall they wanted to abandon this line, but the Surface Transportation Board or maybe Department of Defense denied permission to do so, thinking it could possibly be of future economic or even military wartime strategic importance. Because railroad companies don't want redundancy, resilience, or future options, as that costs money the CEO and shareholders could be earning, and if that comes back to haunt them the CEO and shareholders don their golden parachutes leaving it as everyone else's problem. The federal government on the other hand cares a little bit more (though still far less than they should) about future possibilities.
A tourist train would be perfect out of AVON/Minturn. However, I think turning this into a small commuter railroad would be best to service AVON and Vail. The section to Vail would have to be built under I-70 which wouldn't be cheap, but would address the parking situation Vail has run into, while also allowing locals and visitors to access AVON easier.