What Baldur's Gate 3 Can Teach MMOs
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- Опубліковано 26 чер 2024
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Ummm…it’s not even an mmo? I question your claim. Without even seeing your video.
A big takeaway that I've learned and appreciated about BG3 is map depth and complexity. aka Dense map with a crazy amount of things to do in it vs wide open sparse map. You mentioned fast travel in MMOs... Wouldn't that not be needed as much if there were a ton of things densely packed together in zones.
Or the quips and dialogue between characters as they travel, really does help a lot with that.
But that won't help. Because you will enjoy all those dense maps the first character you level up, for the second one those tons of things would become more like a chore and by the fourth characters this would be a nuisanse and you will pick the juiciest path to get through as quick as you can.
Something else to note is in d&d. Are front loaded, this gives a class almost its entire tool set as well as the ability to experiment and play with the tools from the very beginning.
Good point
Bard is front loaded indeed 😂
Lesson 0: Be a feature and content complete game.
Can't. The complete part means once the players finish the content they would just leave and therefore no longer be massive.
@@LizardSporkhave you heard of this fun thing called replayability? it comes with rich features and makes u want to play the game over again! Then u have dlc etc... but ofc u dont fucking think before commenting god forsaken human
@@LizardSpork there will always be DLCs, Expansion Packs, and REPLAY VALUE (w/ New Game Plus option).
MMO impossible challege
@@LizardSporkmake it fun and replayable. Plus sustained player bases aren’t as important for singlet player games. It’s basically just a way to judge their success on steam.
I just want to note that I've put over 45 hours into my first playthrough of the full version of the game (after spending about 30 hours between two early access characters, but stopping myself to avoid spoiling too much). I'm STILL on Act 1. The sheer breadth and depth of the content in BG3 is simply staggering. I'm consistently surprised at how many new areas I discover that are entirely optional and have their own quests and consequences.
Lesson one. Don't blame your customers when things inevitably break.
Sad thing Creative Assembly recently did that they blamed us if we didn't buy they overpriced DLC they will stop the support for Warhammer total war when they promised they will support WH 3 as long as they can
and they used the "stop bullying us" card while there was no post and no thread about this and all we did is to give them constructive feedback and there a limit for DLC prices before there was 20 $ CAD and now they are 35 $ CAD
Yup the future is not bright with them
@@spellsnare I have all the dlc besides shadows of change. That's gonna stay that way I took a break from the game after admittedly enjoying the chaos dwarf campaigns. I feel you.
- Make the game about the journey, not the endgame.
- Make your supporting characters interesting and relatable.
RPGs with big options for opt-in CoOp is a great way to go for modern MMOs.
Hoping FFXIV continues to move towards this as a Story-focused world-building title having co-op focused on the bigger challenge. And for the old-school role-heavy MMO approach I hope more games explore the Sandbox Survival-style approach like Valheim (or even the Elden Ring co-op mod) for immediate exploration and equipment accumulation that you can dive into and roam with friends, old and new.
Ff14 is so much fun
Ff14 is actually just great. Even now that they are literally releasing a summer vacation as the next expansion it's still the most hyped thing.
On the one hand I like being able to do a bit of everything but on the other I also love diving really deep into one speciality to do some crazy stuff that a ‘jack of all’ can’t do.
BG3 is pretty much a perfect choice for that, I’m sure I probably could scratch both itches in some MMO’s too, but there’s the grind to keep in mind if I want to really try out more than one class.
The problem I have with camping and downtime is that resource management is fine only up to a certain degree for the average player. It can quickly turn into inventory bloat or create frustration. In a way, we saw major problems with this system during FF14's Exploratory Missions like Eureka and the Bozjan Southern Front. A lot of people ended up sitting around and waiting for the others to do the hard work of getting the bosses to spawn in both. People didn't understand or know how to use the special buffs/actions plus the scaling of enemies based on the number of players did not help. Specific required events ended up being a massive roadblock to progress in the content. Players either did nothing but wait for that event since it was the only one that gave out the currency or skipped it altogether when a patch made it they only need to complete it once to unlock said currency. By the end of the expansions they were introduced, Eureka had 4 areas plus 1 bonus dungeon and only had about 3% of players who started it reach the end. Bozja had 2 areas (plus 3 bonus dungeons) and was around 20%.
Agreed. There's a happy medium where inventory becomes enjoyable to manage (RE4 for example), but a point where it becomes too much of a hassle to manage at time's. BG3 manages well at the start, but by mid to late game, I'm already starting to feel the inventory bloat, Especially since the game has a weight system that need's to be managed. And by act 3 when you Need to be carrying a large quantity of item's, it start's to come to a point where you just end up sending everything to camp and sort it out later.
In the end, I feel like it would have benefited by having some item's just Not be able to be picked up. Also reducing the amount of container's because By God. Walking into a room and finding 50 container's and 1 hold's a mega item if you check them all is just mean to the player.
FF14 still did not manage to do proper inventory-bank-crafting implementation like every modern MMORPG does =)
@@FreelancerND They literally can't fix their inventory because of how it was designed. This is why there is such a long pause for the market board and you can only search every x seconds. It's also why they can't expand player inventory either.
Tbh the biggest gripe of this game is just the item management. Feel like I’m looking at 1000 icons
i would say, the first years of SWTOR is really fun for me, those unique class quest are fun as hell, plus the unique high roll gets to responds to the quest dialogue is always fun for me.
BG3 is giving me the same engagement MMOs used to give me as a child, playing shit like Everquest and Asheron's Call. Its a SINGLE PLAYER game. Its unreal to me what Lyrian has accomplished -- and hey, Nerdslayer, I havent finished the full video yet but you're getting better at this.
Some of the best social MMO memories I had was from SWG and camping in the middle of nowhere to regain health (exhaustion bar) so many fun times
I understand why MMO doesn't do too much branching story and failable quests as dev might want a more unified experience for players and possibly back-end optimization. But it would be nice to have that.
You also make some good point on down times. While practically every MMO has inns and camps, they are all just set dressing. It would be nice to have mechanics that encourage players to rest and gather at these location to recover sustained injuries, get well rested bonus, and even just a boost in morale. Maybe a message board for players to post about their adventure in the area, kinda like the Elden Ring message system. In a more sand box game, guilds can even set up defensible camps in other wise high level hostile area to provide temporary shelters for grinding players.
and big bonus to them as well, for catering to us " evil " players , and can actually do a full proper evil play trough - thank you !
and , i can technically play , most of my D&D character as well in the game / make them ingame - great
anyways, awesome video - spot on and keep up the good work - ,
Bruh your expectations are *brutal* if you thing developers should cater to *gamers*. Why? Because gamergate or something
For the dumbass /s
POV: You respected consumers and released a content complete game.
slower strategic combat that is more about smartly using your skills than killing 10 000 mobs for 1 level up, is something that would make me more interested in mmos. I never understood the appeal of "the grind"
What matters the most is making it feel as though the role you have chosen actually carries weight. Beyond that I suppose it is up for debate. Some would say that "proper" mmos should not have a narrative focus and that the story should instead be the player interactions themselves. On the other hand many now expect a heavy emphasis on story due to in now being more normalized. I would argue that numerous mmos do provide many options that promote meaningful choice, in concept, however in practice, the general ease of gameplay and more prevalently, a dominant meta, renders 90% of any unique gameplay options obsolete or irrelevant.
Funny thing is that older mmos have some of these elements, such as downtime for recovering hp/mp or finding another person for your party to overcome something.
Modern mmos don't have these because they're deemed "unpopular" and "doesn't respect the players time", but for many of us that played those games we have fond memories and liked the slower pace and socialization aspect.
Now everything has to cater to the brain fried tictok zoomers.
I am a 40 years old guy who started back in Ultima Online and played pretty much every major MMORPG since then. I do not want artificial downtimes, I do not want sitting to recover HP and MP, I sumply do not have that much time after my full time job to waste on this stuff. Back in the days of Everquest sitting between pulls was a good opportunity for ingame communication via text chat, today we have discord and voice chats ingame, I do not need artificial downtimes to have a nice discussion going.
I don't have a problem with a class leveling slowly without teaming, but being dependant on others to level at all is a real problem.
It actually isn't, that's just life. Life isn't a soloable affair either, no matter what you have to play with other players. So you could level alone, but just like humans have known for thousands for years...it's far less effective. You can't build your game to support such solely. Most of the time solo players complain about such, they really are complaining it's not comparable...and it never should be.
@@nerdSlayerstudioss I see what you're say, but being in a situation where no one will team with you (either because you're too inexperienced or don't have a proper equipment) eventually de-incentivize the player?
Could go down the ff14 msq party finder for forced grouped content for quick easy groups to level through main story. Seems to work really well, getting people back into the habit of being social in an mmo
Being too experienced isn't that big of a problem because you can lead the dungeon. As long as they make it worth it
You bring up MMOs eschewing the class identities we find in single player RPGs and games of old and I think a lot of that is the distance we've had from the original influences for the genre. Multi-User Dungeons had combat that focused and emphasized status effects in combat, unique class progression and heavy RP mechanics and tools and it is something we are sorely missing nowadays. MMOs also really need to reevaluate how they design their quests and make that a huge emphasis. Multiple solutions to a problem based on class, toolset and previous accomplishments like we see in Baldur's Gate 3. We need challenge, obstacles, stakes that don't punish you for failing, but just tell a DIFFERENT story and more! I hope we see MMOs take influences from their roots more. Great video!
I'm glad you brought up SWTOR, because one thing that I think BG3 could have stood to learn from that game is how to handle multiplayer conversations. BG3 doesn't let other players really engage in a conversation once someone starts it; you can do your own thing in the meantime, but I love how The Old Republic allows multiple players to actually chime in during a cinematic and potentially make huge decisions even if someone else is the "main" player that started it.
Great point. I agree
@@nerdSlayerstudiossI understand Larian did consider working on something like this but I guess the complexity of it was just too great, which is fair. Maybe it'd be possible with a future patch! I do think a good way to do it would have been to let all players choose their preferred conversation option (if they wanted to contribute). Then, if there's a disagreement, have a rolloff to determine whose choice is selected. That could be a CHA roll in most cases, but for certain conversation options like attacking or other actions, you could do DEX, WIS, etc.
I mean shit NWN2s Expacs brought it in, when they didn't have it originally
145 hours and i jsut completed my first play through... it was just, well i had 4 bugs? that is it... i was in shock. it is so nice not having micro transactions, all the dlc, and a AAA game that just works
Skip to 2:05 for the actual start
After i rescued some prisoners i put some food, clothes a knife and booze in their backback, didnt have to, just for rpg reasons....this game is on a different level, something the gods of old could summon, the blizzard, bioware, black isle of old.
playing through dragons dogma for the first time and a lot of the things you brought up here are present in that game. obviously to a lesser extent since its like a 10 year old game, but still there. that probably explains why ive spent half my time just walking around fully-immersed and in awe at how fun the game is.
I’ve been barking in the wind for years. Larian could make a MMORPG with their engine in the vein of Ultima Online.
A UO inspired game by Larian would be amazing.
Two nerdslayer videos in two days? It's like Christmas morning.
i think that mmos can learn more from souls game (hidden content , detailed world , story telling without 100 dialogue but a good lore) more than a RPG. BG3 its a good rpg , not perfect , but a very very good RPG , in my opinion mmos shouldt look at an RPG singleplayer
Sounds really boring, sorry
Hey how do i make a request ?
Can you make a death of a game about "crossout"?
While thes points do stand , and could provide a better experience for many players , the problem in my point of view is that the playerbase itself changed , many stopped caring about the journey , and just want the most "efficant" way to achive the highest level with the strongest equpment .... not caring about much else only how they can achive those things , the time of social mmo's might be over the same way horse drawn carrige is over.
Your argument makes no sense because it's like saying damn human beings got better and lazier so we don't need to socialize anymore!! Trends are a thing but you speak about it like it's literally a logical guarantee. Which it's not...hence the video...
BG3 is based of 5th edition of dungeons and dragons which came out in 2014. They benefit from years of balance changes and player feedback to the system they incorporated. Players who have been playing 5e know its nook and crannies and are able to give really good feed back. Imagine if someone had play tested you core combat system for 9 years. This basically allowed to focus on other things.
Reminds me of those persistent neverwinter nights worlds.
In WoW, my biggest gripe is that you the "hero" of an ever scaling threat to threat over nearly 2 decades... is still treated like a background character by most NPCs and even the cut scenes.
One NPC will say your the most important person among them, lead them to victor... while the person standing right next to them is "neutral" to you, the greatest hero in Azeroth has no reputation wherever he goes. Lets not ignore all the time the final raid boss cut scene doesn't have you anywhere in it, and its usually either an NPC stealing your kill, or letting the bad guy escape. FU Khadgar you incompotent buffoon who can't tie his shoes unless he gives me a quest to get him show lace made from the nostril hairs of felorcs or something dumb.
You're great! Glad I found ya! ❤ The only thing that turns me off is the "clicking" gameplay
The game has full controller support.
You can move your character with your thumbstick, use your abilities with your ability wheels, and jump with the d-pad.
It's great!
@@OneWingedRoseClicking with a controller is still clicking, a wheel just makes that even more tedious.
@@jesperburnsTo each their own.
also it is funny you basically describe how SWG was on launch to how mmos should learn from a game...
There's plenty of things that galaxies does wrong though, it's like a 20-year-old game
@@nerdSlayerstudioss oh for sure, there were many things wrong. but it is just a shame that WoW came along and killed it turning every game into a clone of that rather than allowing us mmo's with great rp opportunities
It also teaches that we need a new hard drive to cope with the size of the new games (and that the game is not finished, Larian always releases his "Definitive Editions" months later).
That sex sells and (therefore) that it is an irony that Illusion Soft has gone bankrupt.
Yeah, they never let you ram a bear
It is a complete game. Highly replayable with TONS of content. Act 3 might even be the longest if you do everything. But hey what do i know. Copy pasting datamined remnants without context, clearly is the way to go. Gamers deserve everything they get from the industry.
@@cirescythe "Complete game", for the moment. Stay tuned for when the DLCs (which will later be recompiled into a Definitive Edition) come out.
@@Schmaglow You never play "Honey Select" ¿not?. You can easily create a bear (even 2) to make, everything.
4:58 You have my deepest condolences, that is the worst roll I have ever seen in my entire life.
BG3 made me realise how little content D4 has provided on the campaign side.
Speaking of fail state, HC WoW classic really puts you into a more rp mind and slows things down.
It's not just a lessons for MMO but for gaming as a whole. As most games these days are opting for how can we sell the players favorite features separately from the incomplete game?
So far BG3 has been a breath of fresh air to a rather stagnant field. Sure, there are other games that are good but man did they really knock it out of the park. Is it perfect? Nah, but its about as close as they can get a game these days. Really solidifies that games can be "feature complete" and not broken day one
Neverwinter was pretty close to a BG3 MMO when it came out. Sadly it never rly got popular and went pretty p2w. A Neverwinter 2 would be much welcome tho if they go for their original vision of the game and polish it up.
NWN is my favorite CRPG and my favorite online rpg
@@nerdSlayerstudioss while yeah Neverwinter Nights is amazing i agree i ment Neverwinter. MMORPG developed by Cryptic and currently published by Gearbox. Im surprised you havent done Death of a Game on it. Its far from its past glory with its explorable dungeons and even community made dungeons buuuut you can hit the level cap (20) in about 2hrs and look around.
I didn't mention that one because I think it's a really bad game
I agree with the roleplaying aspect.. but not with the class identity.. I want to play sometimes solo in mmorpg that time if I'm a support who can't deal damage how am I supposed to complete quests
You find friends...or play with a companion/NPC to help. Sorry that you chose a character that relies on other players and expected to not do such...
@@nerdSlayerstudioss then that leads to the problem where everyone will choose self reliant characters and there will be no supports.. which has led to the present day class design . In single player rpg where you control a party it's fine, but not in MMO..
No, it doesn't create that problem. Because supports are still powerful, see any RPG ever basically. It's only recently we see MMOs, not even really apply proper RPG rulesets anymore, doing stuff like that. I recommend learning about the game I referenced in this video, and genuinely watching some DnD content and learning about it. You will realize why what you are saying, actually makes you a minority in the RPG space. (DnD isn't singleplayer mate...)
@@nerdSlayerstudioss mate i have played over 200hrs of BG3 , and regularly play DnD.. some arrogance on you to assume that I don't know anything about BG3 or DND.. there is a huge difference between coop like dnd and mmorpg
Anyway as I told, my opinion is in single player/coop rpg it will work , but in MMO it just won't because lot of people want to play solo at their own pace and join groups only for stuff like raids / dynamic events..
@@prince_warheroNerdslayer has a habit of very quickly shutting down arguments like these with basically "nuh-uh" -counterarguments that seldom respect the oppossing points, but in a way I see why.
His attitude seems to be that most counter-arguments stem from people coming into opinions not due to their own observations, but because they've essentially adapted arguments made by business-people in the MMO space to justify modern MMO designs. His whole thing is to argue that the big trends in MMO-games haven't come about because it's responding to player behaviors, but that it's mostly business-driven and that if people are shown that the old, more interactive ways are feasible and monetizable, we can regain them.
And the thing is, I'm not a game designer. I am not involved in the nitty-gritty of creating these games, maybe the old ways really CAN be brought back. Maybe online games changed not because the designers need more money and a wider player pool to be financially viable nowadays, and thus had to change their design plans to accomodate for this wider player pool. Maybe they changed due to game-designer greed and desire to monetize more, and work less at making the games interactive and role-playable. Maybe that's the case...
Or maybe it's not, and the things he desires were changed because in a world where larger playerbases are desired the old ways aren't as viable because of stuff you describe. But he has become determined to argue the validity of the old ways no matter what, and give not one inch of consideration to the modern changes as "inevitabilities". And like I said, I can see why. I can even empathize a little with it- sometimes being really stubborn and arguing constantly in favor of your own mental model CAN help people break out of habits or perspectives they've gotten bogged down in precisely because they've been manipulated into having them, and maybe that is the case with modern MMO design...
But man, he sure comes off arrogant and unpleasant when he pleads his case with such utter assuredness and dismissal of counter points.
*ascends after listening to the character creation theme*
4:59 Big OOF
9:30 That's one of my favorite parts of DnD/BG3. They have these things but it's always tied to something. The Ring of Regeneration is an item that passive heals you, and it can help immensely. I had a party in DnD that found one and the barbarian tank would always wear that ring to mitigate how much healing the cleric needed to shoot out. It's not an immediate effective item, but in a long game it'll add up to a lot and allows the support to do more than cast healing word all game. Another is fast travel being tied to Teleportation Circle. And the creators know how powerful that shit is, so it's extremely costly and time consuming to create your own permanent circle.
Oh wow, lol wasn't expecting that next video to be so soon!
oh man, as I played Baldurs gate 3 in early access I know the release will be big... but this big? GOTY
When I hear that a mmo has rotations I never touch it. It's boring having to repeat the same inputs.
Are there spoilers? I haven't played BG3 yet.
He doesn't say anything about story/characters, but in the video there are cutscenes he shows from the game including the final act of it.
So just put this video in the background and listen to it if u don't wanna see any cutscenes
nope , none
There is one small spoiler but almost every video spoils that twist
Best rated game ever? Huh
2:55
Baldur's Gate 3 stands valiantly next to Disco Elysium as one of the most critically acclaimed and well made games of ALL TIME
Ashes of Creation : a MMO in development inspired by a Pathfinder campaign, matches a lot of what you describe. It's made by passionate MMO devs team and lead by an even more passionate gamer/roleplayer who got bored of the current MMO market state and got the matter in its own end.
The last mmorpg that had the role playing aspect set is SWTOR.. sadly that’s all they did well
I'm not sure how you could impliment the travel and camp part but it could be interestimg for sure. The combat feels so rewarding because it has challenge and depth. You also feel powerful even if the enemies are dangerous. I think there is going to be a cultural osmosis from this game in some way though. Always happens when a game sets such high standards.
Thank you for clearifying the though I had on my mind about why BG3 feel so much better than most if isn't all modern MMO, and if futur MMO will have the deepness of gameplay of BG3 I don't mind having to play turn base again in a MMO. Truth is I almost want a PVP mode for BG3 like doing 3v3 or 2v2.... men I can only dream
NIce.
11:25 That Mik's Scrolling Battle Text made that feel very comfy to watch.
agreed
Something that BG3 has in common with the games you discussed in your last video (Especially AC:NH and DRG) is its wonderful character customization. A good character customizer and fashion really makes you feel like your character is your own and would help encourage roleplaying, and therefore socialization.
With a few exceptions, MMOs and ORPGs can't really capture this at the moment. It seems like it's now normalized for even subscription or buy-to-play games to lock great cosmetics behind the cash shop and it's even worse for F2P titles. Again, not to rag on Palia, but it's trying to enter a very customization-focused genre alongside AC:NH and Stardew, and I can't imagine it being able to really embody that virtue if it's F2P with a cosmetic shop. If you're going to have real-money cosmetics, at least be like DRG and put just as much effort into the base game cosmetics as the cash shop ones.
What are your thoughts on having a MMORPG that used a turn based combat systems like BG3
What MMO devs can learn from BG3: Make a game that completely reinvents and/or reinvigorates the genre.
BotW and Elden Ring did it for open world games. BG3 did it for cRPGs. How hard can it be?
Edit: This was a poorly worded way of saying "What MMOs should learn from BG3 is make a really amazing game instead of a boring one" or something on those lines. -_-
They didn't reinvent the genre, people just forgot games use to be like this.
@@Bionickpunk So reinvigorate is more applicable. Good to know. 👍
@@Bionickpunkim 42. Started gaming on a commodore 64. Games did not use to be like that.
CRPGs have been around for a long time and have always been like this in one way or another. Your comment just tells me that you likely never played this genre before.
I saw you Icon, and Baldur's gate in the title as was like WTF Death of BG3 i think not lol. Loved the Video
This is one of the few games that have me super immersed. I can just sit in camp talking to a bunch of real life randos and be having fun. Traveling and finding things to do is never boring.
Great vid!
I think an important lesson the industry should learn is that interacting with their audience and actually crafting this around the feedback. Obviously it couldn’t work for every game but i can sometimes feel like an us against them sort of thing.
I subscribed after the Halo video, glad I did.
Solid upload
Ultima Online was one of the first big MMO’s and you never needed to have a ton of people on the screen to make it fun. It was all about random interactions when you were solo or in small groups. I dislike how everything now is pre-made groups, it feels forced. MMO’s should encourage you to be social and stop making it a game mechanic to group as a must.
Heck with so much advancement in AI and games in general I’m surprised you don’t see more AI auto fill groups to make it less forced and fill up groups with AI members when you only have 1-2 friends who want to play.
first 2 min as an ad? cmon man
Sorry I have to make a living. It's annoying right?
CRPG's never went anywhere. Like Pathfinder Wrath, a much deeper crpg, came out very recently. I think Balder's Gate just was the first to do it in such a big presentation (whereas most CRPG's don't have mocap and use portraits and dialogue boxes to convey dialogue)
CRPG's has HAD a resurgence for years... that's why BG3 was able to be made. I dislike the notion that Larian is the first to do these things in years. Hell in Pathfinder, camping requires your skills to do well.
I genuinely have no idea what point you were trying to make. CRPGs have been around for like 30 years and have been insanely popular. They just have never been the most popular. Nobody said they were the first...you just feel mad about other CRPGs not getting fame for some reason.
W Video
Excellent video
From what I can conclude from this video, BG 3 has features which MMORPGs don't want to have. Yes, latency is one issue but the other issues are practicality and safety. It's way more practical for MMOs to have simpler gameplay with no downtime at all and with jack of all trades, especially with competition, players would prefer MMOs with simpler gameplay. It gets even worse for MMos with fast leveling up system to reach endgame.
Imagine failing a mission in an MMO. In singleplayer game, you could keep it as a secret but in MMO, other players might figure it out especially if there's visual reward for completing the mission. TLDR, it's embarassing and might ended up being avoided by players and eentually by developers.
That being said, MMOs or Mos could try implementing those features to offer different feel for players who's bored with usual features.
"Simpler gameplay" makes no logical sense as the only games that have that are a few of the mass popular ones right now. MMOs are, and have never been simple. Just because that attracted the most non MMO players who didn't stick around for long, doesn't mean it's the most effective. I don't like when people like you have obvious bias, and yet try to speak for an ENTIRE genre.
"Imagine failing a mission in an mmo"...you realize some games have this right? The figuring out part has always existed in online gaming and is a non-issue when designing a game (you already consider it). So really your premise doesn't really stand all that well for me.
I would be interested in seeing how many people play the game really full coop (ie all party members being other people) vs solo or mostly solo. I get your point about all party members having distinct, specialized roles, but I feel there are a lot more people playing the game solo than co-op. And as a solo player you don't have the issue of "bah, it's so boring to just be the party's healbot". Yes, let's say Shadowheart is the heal bot, you don't have to play just as her. You are the heal bot and the stealth bot and the magic user and the big smash smash, because you get to control all the characters. So you never run into the issue in "your role" being boring if you control the whole party.
What if MMOs were just a hub/town, but the gameplay/missions were structured like a D&D? What if you login, select a "main mission", where the game then transports the players in 1 of 8 scenarios and the main mission is to beat 1 of 8 different bosses. The player is matched up w/ 4 random people who make their own class and stats. Obviously, you all will star at level 1 every time you start a new mission, but has to do mini side quest together to obtain stronger gear and special items to cripple the boss in final boss battle (only upon completing the side quest successfully). But the catch is when talking with NPCs the game selects one of the players at random to make rolls (and because people may have varying stats and easy roll for you may be terrible for someone else). Additionally, Everytime you finish a mission (which should be very hard to complete) you get tokens to use in the main hub for cosmetics and or boost for next campaigns. Lastly, if you beat all 8 mission there is a 9th mission that is the ultimate mission.
Personally, I like my MMOs light on story and heavy on gameplay/mechanics.
You practically described Final Fantasy 11 Online. That game felt more D&D than any other MMORPG, in my opinion. The races having their own stats, how different every job was and how it could be utilized given experimentation, as well as those jobs have their own respective traits and [additional] stats, with the multitude of different weapons for each job as well; the list could go on.
It really saddens me how most MMORPGs have really lost RPG
Haven't played GW2 in a while, but doesn't it have chat bubbles or am i remembering it wrong?
MMOs have been less and less RPGs sadly, mainly for the sake of balance and streamlined UX. Look at factions , you're lucky if you get two. There should be plenty to join with different identities and play styles. And when creating your character, when in MMOs are you able to choose a background, a goal or even write a small description about your character? One thing striking me is the number of add-ons that got integrated in WoW native UI over the years yet TotalRP just died in a corner. Tagging some servers as "roleplay" won't do shit if you don't provide basic tools to facilitate storytelling and immersion.
What kind of setting should a MMO have?
Depends on the creators
10 years from now let hope
Been enjoying tge single player game, wish i could play multi-player with some people i used to know
A living world where player actions can shift it is quite a ambitious thing, but I doubt many mmos would try such a thing.
Few of them tried to make smaller scale of that kind of thing, like making monsters move from one place to another when they're too exterminated and stuff, but drastic changes, like making an entire region go from lush green field to a frozen hell is way too much.
Beside interesting npcs would be something that would be interesting on mmos, mmos should be more about interacting with other players. And if a player wants to be intimate with a npc, they will want to keep it for themselves (kinda like a waifu).
Making classes unique is something that many mmos fails because they try to make them 1 on 1, so each class has the same chance against the others. Classes themselves also lacks identity, and that identity also generates classes like mages being the worst and most uninteresting classes in the game. I'm not talking about Bauldurs Gate on this (beside I never played any of those games), I'm just speaking of classes in general in mmos. The classes feels like, they just exist to do their stuff. Nothing special.
The roleplaying part on mmos should actually be done by the players, with incentivation from the game. Like, one hand washes the other. But how would mmos make each player provide a unique experience for the playthrough? What could change on the adventure based on who you take with you? Maybe that wizard can make a wall fade? Or maybe that engineer could place turrets that could help with defense?
that double nat 1
Runescape is peak when it comes to mastering/utilizing non combat related skills in an mmo. In most other mmos you can only get like 1 or 2 non combat professions that you barely even touch.
Yes!!!!
The inherent problem of MMORPGs that I just don't see as fixable is that the content is static. You beat it once, or as many times as you care to level an alt, and the only "challenging" and realistically engaging content becomes the end game content which in far too many instances feels far too much like clicking rotations with other people and not a genuine team effort. There is effectively never any emergent gameplay in any MMO out there except in the context of open world PvP, and those sorts of MMOs are so rarely catered to and even more rarely execute it well (Crowfall, you epic disappointment holy shit). Story rarely feels engaging and even worse doesn't cater to an online environment, instead treating it like a single player experience and never living up to what a dedicated SP RPG could achieve. With the ever evolving and most popular (or, maybe, just most commonly made as it's the least risky) style of MMO being the themepark and the inherent design philosophy surrounding them becoming one of increasing convenience so players can get to the "fun" content more quickly and efficiently (or just pay your way towards faster leveling/gearing), the genre as a whole has lost out on so much of what made it interesting and unique in the first place and I simply do not see that changing any time soon. No major publishers are willing to risk supporting the niche MMO looking to cater to a neglected player base (despite the fact it WOULD be successful) and there simply isn't enough passion in the universe for a dedicated team to execute something as expansive as an MMO without significant resources.
The modern MMORPG spoils its player base and even if they could come out with fully fleshed and engaging raids and zones literally every week it will still never be enough with how quickly so many players clear the content and then just run it like a treadmill without even thinking. It just leads to FOMO if you don't complete your daily/weekly runs, gate keeping for newer or less skilled players, and an honestly spoiled expectation of players' time being respected and made perfectly efficient to get as much done as possible in as short a time as possible. The only way to break such a mold is to intentionally design an MMO to have engaging content throughout whatever the leveling process is, make the end game *a* goal rather than the *only* goal, make alts worth playing (or at least design it so single characters aren't left without things to do after their daily "chores"), and have emergent gameplay. That emergent gameplay is the single hardest thing to achieve (and arguably the most resource and time intensive) without open world PvP, and then said PvP needs to be meaningful and not just a series of griefing people leveling.
The only MMORPG I've ever played that managed to have anything that felt truly emergent was a little known MMORPG that came out of Korea called Nexus: The Kingdom of the Winds. This came in the form of storied, temporary events that featured a difficult set of quests and dungeons that lasted the length of each event. They could even directly impact players' daily gameplay experience until the event was over, such as previously PvE only zones becoming PvP (and at the time you dropped inventory on death for those PLUS the game features break on death gear), or an entire city being unreachable for the duration (like when my rogue's city was under siege, even he and others of the player operated but GM officially created guild, the city's standing army, would log in to the other major city's inns with no access to the army HQ guild hall). At the end of each one, you'd get proof of your completion in a very in-character implementation of what was basically an achievement system (before they were even a thing, too) and very often from there included brand new permanent content in the form of some quest or zone. EverQuest Next sounded like it was going to have something comparable before it got shut down for so many upsetting reasons. Rift tried having that to an extent, at least the zone wide events were interesting, but those quickly died out as players out leveled zones. Anarchy Online had those very shortlived 3D animated shorts that helped immerse you into the game. Ashes of Creation may be the only MMO in decades to properly achieve anything similar, but we still need to wait to see how well it executes the whole package. And then games like Star Wars Galaxies that apparently catered to the social aspects of the MMO quite well. I missed out on it, but it sounded like it really tried doing something special until it got "WoWified".
I don't know what it will take, but at some point, we really need to see a moderm MMO that puts roleplaying, immersion, socialization, and game world interaction first and foremost, with an engaging combat system and content challenging enough throughout the leveling process so end-game isn't the only "fun" content. It needs emergent gameplay, needs a system that allows higher level players and lower level players to engage in content together in a fair and balanced manner, and give reason for lower level zones to be inhabited and engaged with by players of all levels. It sounds like a pipe dream and I anticipate it regretfully always will be.
This, I think, somewhat ignores the history of the MMO, and other RPGs.
The ability to solo, for example, is casual friendly. It allows the player with 30m to play the ability to do something. And, sure, you could have a group finder, like most MMOs these days do, but that pretty much means you will never see those people again. They might as well be randomly created NPCs, except these ones have a massive aggro range and constantly go rushing off to the next fight. The roles then tie into that. There's always a ton of DPS, but fewer healers and tanks. And while games are designed to want more of the former than the latter two, it is still one of those two that will determine when your party is ready to go, 9 times out of 10. But if you can swap roles, then roles can both mean something and be readily available. And this differs from BG, where I play a team, not just one character.
Fast travel is similar. Running across an open world is great, a chance to explore. But when it eats up 30m of your playtime to meet up with your buddy to do dungeon X... not so nice anymore. And if you only have 30m to play, well, how much of it do you want to spend running to meet up with your friends before it just isn't worth the bother to play at all?
So while those things together can help immerse you in the world and form lasting friendships, they'll also cause you to lose players left and right, in a world where alternatives exist. Can't go back to EQ. Well, you can, since it is still running, with classic servers, but very few people will. It is niche now. After all, you didn't even mention it when it has a good chunk of what you're discussing here.
Quest failure with consequences is another problematic things. Most MMOs are vertical. As the ME series shows, actual choices with consequences make that hard. It branches things, so every time that happens, a future thing is that much more development. Then there's the FOMO factor, coupled with griefing potential is some chump purposely causes me to fail. Or if I disconnect. If a nice looking item drops from this quest, and I fail it... I'm screwed. Heck, it might drop from 2 quests down the line and I didn't even know that item existed, potentially because it didn't yet, being in a forthcoming expansion. On the character I've been playing for 3 years! Yeah, that would suck. For a game like BG3, I can reload from a save to try again, or I can do another play through, since the story will end anyway. Now, it could work if there was an MMO that was more horizontal, not focused on the concept of "the end game", but instead on making multiple characters or just exploring new content. A couple of MMOs, like City of Heroes, SW:ToR at launch, and I think Guild Wars have placed an emphasis on the horizontal rather than the vertical, but they're the exceptions. I do think SW:ToR screwed itself over, that the moment they began focusing on the vertical, merging the story lines to cut costs, and through that, the game lost its way, but regardless, when your game is meant to have expansion after expansion, if those are vertical, quest failure, NPC death, and so on have serious consequences on your development cycle.
And if you look at all that, you can see why FF XIV is the way it is. You can solo, but you need teams to do dungeons. You can swap roles, to make team building easier. There's a mentor system, so you can team with your friends regardless of level difference. Fast travel is there, because people want to play the game, not have an extra long, dynamic, no-afk loading screen. It tries to give you a compelling story, but no branching, because the story goes on, and that would ultimately lead to issues. But it is all compromise... to find that balance between the needs of MMO and RPG, while keeping the time starved player in mind.
Mind you, I do wish more MMOs were like EvE. Not in terms of its gameplay, but in that it had a relatively unique MMO idea and is content to be in that niche, without wanting to be a WoW killer.
"That BG3 shouldn't be the standard because Larian is a huge studio with infinite money". So pathetic how the industry has reacted to the GOTY. There is a reason why I don't buy any triple A titles anymore, regardless of how fun they look. I refuse to support greedy dev studios who only care about milking every penny from you. Took me awhile to buy BG3, but man it is a blast so far.
Overrated game of the year you mean
My wizard with 1 lvl of cleric would like to talk to you.
First!
In modern MMO every class can heal, DPS and tank, while in D&D Druid, Cleric and Paladin can heal, DPS and tank.
And people said turnbased action was dead..... looking at you square Enix! ... bg3 on top !
when i play an MMO i don't look nor care for a story... i just want end game raiding, honestly i don't really care about role playing or branching stories or any other "horizontal" content.
i'm purely looking for vertical progression, raid -> better gear -> faster raiding -> better gear
It's like a better version of World of Warcraft, but without Activision Blizzard's greedy hands on it. I'm excited to play Baldur's Gate 3!
The game is fine but doesn't deserve a 10/10. It goes downhill after Act 1. An evil playthrough is not rewarding at all.. And there are still blocker bugs. Pathfinder is way ahead of it.
Spent 50+ hours on Pathfinder, bored completely out of mind. Mindless encounters, needless difficult higher end low mobs, completely boring and annoying companions I dislike, and etc. I love Pathfinder, hate the Pathfinder RPG games sry.
I ended up hating MMORPG because I felt like playing a big boring Excel sheet.
I want to "live" in an online world. Yes, this includes chores, "jobs"... but I'm tired of numbers, stats... it's boring, MMORPG only have that to offer me and I don't know why.
I've been playing BG3 and I feel like my actions make sense, have meaning, and tell MY story.
I'd like to be a nomad bard in an online world, but they force me to fight... boars... why?
I played GTA SAMP RP 15 years ago and felt more FREE in an online role playing game than in a proper MMORPG.
I wish they gave away free accounts to people willing to roleplay in MMORPG.
Please no. BG3 is massively overrated. You spend most of the time clicking boxes, combat is a complete joke even in the hardest difficulty and the world is too sandboxy with not enough proper streamlined dungeons or quests. The game feels like DoS2, just a big theme park where you go from one attraction to another rather then an actual world.
Pathfinder Wrath of the righteous was a much better crpg then BG3 with a fraction of it's budget.