🔥 Wet 7018 vs Dry 7018 with a Phoenix Dry Rod Oven
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- Опубліковано 24 сер 2024
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Big shout out to Phoenix Dry Rod ovens for sending in a unit for us to use in this video.
You've always been told that a 7018 needs to be kept dry. But have you ever tested to see what happens when it gets soaking wet? Today we are testing a 7018 that has been baked in a Phoenix Dry Rod oven at 300 degrees Fahrenheit against a 7018 that has been sitting in a pool of water for 24 hours.
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Bob, I wish you had also run a third option. Namely rod that has been sitting open and in a typical shop for a few weeks or months. Dry but exposed to normal humidity in the shop. As a hobbyist I simply cannot justify a rod oven and what I weld would certainly not qualify as "critical". But it would be interesting to see how rod just left in the shop compares.
I really do like your welding videos. I've learned a lot towards my hobby related "self training" from your efforts. A hearty THANKYOU for making the videos and sharing.
All u have to do is message him on Facebook and ask him to show you an if his producer thinks it's good he will do it
Yes, I have the same question and can you put them in a regular oven to dry them before welding if they’ve been just sitting in the shop for a while.
We will run the test again in the future taking this into account. We also plan on doing a bend test to test results once we have the ability in the new shop.
A good wooden box with a heat lamp is a cheaper ideal for the hobbyist.
Jeff Huebner yes but the wife is not gonna be happy with you. Lol
I had a welding instructor who was a pipeline welder who told me you don't need to have a rod oven to keep them dry. He told me they would keep them in a pvc pipe with caps on the ends, and when they went to use them, they would strike an arc on some scrap first and that supposedly drew whatever moisture was in them out and then they would begin their weld.
I don't know if that was good practice or not, but it made sense to me. He had been a pipeliner for most of his career and was the most knowledgable stick welder I had ever encountered, so if he did that in the field welding pipe, I assumed that he knew what he was talking about.
Sometime when you need to weld with a wet 7018 rod. Stick it first. In about 3-4 seconds the water will be gone when that rod starts heating up. Still a no to critical but this methods welds a lot better than the wet rod. Love your page bob.
Yep exactly what I was going to suggest and what I have done for lots of years when you have no other choice but to weld in the rain snow or on a dredge in the field on a sandbank with no Rod oven handy or dry rod. Definitely not for absolutely critical or code work
It'll fly. Just not for code inspectors
@Brandon S ive read somewhere that welds made with "moist" 7018's may sometimes look fine, BUT under an xray they are full of cracks
the machines with vrd would not fall for that trick :P
There's a trick an old welder taught me with old open rod package...just stick the rod and let it warm a little, then start to weld...cheers from México!!!
Bob, you are hands down one of the coolest dudes to do welding instructional and info videos/posts. You even get back to people on instagram and youtube comments. Seriously, that kicks ass. The coffee barking on the ROW was pretty funny too. Thanks for being an active member of the welding community for the years past and future!
The arc shots on this episode are the best ones on UA-cam. You could actually see the water boiling out of the flux. The camera guy got the settings perfect so you could see what was happening not a blown out white spot in the center of the frame.
This is like Mythbusters for welding. Please, keep videos like this coming. Thanks.
I've worked in a couple shops doing bridge construction. 7018 and the Inspector was there all day for 6 months...rods out of the sealed #50 can, or oven....use them in 4 hours, or back to the oven...no 'other' rods could be used...no old refrigerators with a 100 watt light bulb either....
The question really isn't whether or not it will weld....7018 is used mostly on equipment that has been in service. Piping, pressure vessels, tanks, etc. the carbon steel will absorb hydrogen and is the primary reason for using a low hydrogen rod. Hydrogen causes things like hydrogen embrittlement, delayed hydrogen cracking, high temp hydrogen attack (HTHA), and other non desirable effects. Some equipment will undergo a hydrogen degas procedure (Hydrogen bakeout) before any welding to try and limit cracking during weld repairs....having been a welder and now a refinery inspector, I can tell you that if they catch someone using cold or wet 7018 they will make them cut out everything they welded that day. Most refineries will require a portable rod oven and some places, such a nuclear plants will have a rod accountability program....nice video
And these problems will not show on an acid etch, bend test or dye penetrant. They affect fatigue strength after at least 1000 stress cycles, or strength at temps over 500°f. Besides, I don't think H20 is the problem, it's the oxides formed in the rod coating over time.
I watched that same demonstration at an AWS section meeting. They dunked the coupons in something like ethylene glycol but can't remember. It was amazing to watch the weld made with the soaked rod off gas for the entire duration of the meeting and was still going when strong at the end. It's if you're welding fence, but I wouldn't recommend it for anything else.
This video probably has some of the clearest arc shots of any video I’ve ever seen! Whatever weld lens, and camera combo you’ve got going, that shit works!
Hello Bob, Looking forward to your testing of old rod. I used to use a lot of stick but for many years now mig has been what I do mostly. Consequently I have a lot of old rod from the eighties and thereabouts. I built a rod oven which keeps it at 120 degrees (I couldn't afford running a 300 degree oven in my home shop, I repurposed an electric hot water heater and incorporated its insulation to get a serviceable oven, ) about ten or twelve years ago but before that they were stored in the cardboard boxes they came in (and a few cans) in my boiler room which held about 90 degrees for perhaps twenty five years on some.. Now a few rods shed their flux but the huge majority run fine (low hydrogen and others as well--stainless too). Yes sometimes they can be a bit fussy to start and I turn the heat up a bit with them as well as the slag doesn't pop like new rod but mostly they do what I want and I can work around the drawbacks when I have three or four hundred pounds of already paid for rod as opposed to the going rate to replace it. Add to that the fact that I live in a temperate rain forest with 170 inches of rain a year and the humidity to go along and it is hardly an ideal rod environment! Since I generally do overkill I haven't had any failures but would be interested in your testing the coupons when you do the test. Always interesting. Take care. Doug
Very interesting. I also have a LOT (couple hundred pounds?) of old 7018 rod in many different sizes that sat in the humid, open air for about 15+ years. I recently got a welder working again and having a few projects that I've been wanting to do, I ran a test bead with an old rod after leaving them in a food dehydrator (basically just a heater fan) for a couple of weeks. I was pleasantly surprised at how well it worked but I guess the true test will be how well it stands up to a strength test.
I "learned" a trick that works in a pinch, when I still worked as a welder and we didn't have a rod oven handy we used to get the rod stuck on purpose and waited for the rod to stop fuming before we switched off the welder and waited until the rod cooled down and then we would weld with it. I wondered for all these years if that made things worse or better. I passed x-ray with it once so it can't be that bad.
The same one old welder taught me in México
After watching I used a little toaster oven to dry rods out that were left out and soaked up humidity but I couldn’t get them to even start until I dried them and bingo.I was surprised when it didn’t even stink but thanks,it made all the difference
In my experience with running 7018 in open moisture or highly saturated conditions were the rods are left out in rain or just natural humidity you notice a bigger difference when welding out of position.
The best demonstration I have seen to demonstrate the difference was to take a dry lohy rod and run 2 beads, and a few inches away run 2 two beads that were contaminated beside it... then place the plate in a container and fill it with baby oil, or clear oil.. After 24 hours, the oil will trap the hydrogen bubble comming off the two welds.. you will see the contaminated weld has way way more hydrogen deffusion... Now for the average person welding junk, delayed hydrogen embrittlement is probably not going to be an issue..
It would have been nice to at lease see an etched section of the weld for camparison
Man, Bob is such a Ninja. Love this guy. Gives it to ya straight, no fillers.
Would've liked to see an etch test
Tony Seefeldt ....I'd put my money on it passing visual testing but failing bend test due to hydrogen embrittlement
or an x-ray, I know it is a fillet but it would still be interesting. I wish he would of made a butt joint it would have been easy to test multiple ways.
@@leebarnhart9725 I would put money on it, if he just did a single pass fillet only on one side, then held one toe's plate in a vice and held onto the other toe's with an adj. wrench/pipe wrench, it would snap right apart from the moisture in that rod.
It's running smooth because you're running it on the "warm" side. Can tell by the BB's. On jobs I've welded, if you go get fresh rod, you better have a portable rod oven to put it in. The weld tech would bend them in half. But then all my welding was "critical applications.
Hell, for a soaked rod, that’s a phenomenal result.
Needed to test a second soaked wet rod that you tossed in the oven for x number of hours. And mentioning that low hydrogen rod is no longer low hydrogen when it is wet seems an important point as well. Thanks for the video!
I agree. I was expecting to see if a wet rod could be restored by the dryer. I have a lot of old rod on the farm and I wonder if baking it is worth the trouble.
A cheap way to keep your rods sealed in an air tight container. I made some rod holders for my various rods (7018, 6010, 6011, etc) out of PVC tube. Cut PVC to length. Prime and glue one end cap permanently (air tight). On the other end I glue on a threaded MPT Adapter and use a FPT Cap which screws right on (air tight). Mark the caps and tube body with rod info that way you can store the tubes standing or laying down.
thanks Bob ... this video made me break out the stinger and practice. you are the GOAT.
I appreciate your knowledge and effort in showing us these demonstrations. Thank you, from a rookie.
I have to say you was feeding that rod with machine like consistency
Good video. After seeing this, I won't hesitate to use cold bench rods for whatever I do. My welds turn out pretty good. They look like yours. Bosses, other welders and customers never complained. I always wondered about heated 7018 rods. If a rod was wet, I'd just ground it the bench before turning the machine on. The moisture steams out pretty quick. Then it'd work fine.
However, if I had access to oven baked rods, I'd be happy to use them. Til then, I'll just lock the door and keep the welding police out.
Don't. That weld isn't structurally sound and will likely fail within a couple of months or years
The biggest concern when using E7018/E49018 or any low hydrogen electrodes, is when it is not dry there is a relatively high amount of hydrogen gas that get absorbing into the filler material when welding. Which could lead to HICC (Hydrogen Induced Cold Cracking) of the weld. The crack can occur from just after finish welding out to 6 months. The best thing you can do to prevent HICC in a weld, if you can not dry your electrodes, is to pre and post heat the joint up to 212F/100C. This gives the material and joint you just completed more time for the hydrogen gas the be released, reducing the chance of a HICC.
Hope this helps.
Good video always enjoy. For the home hobbyist might consider a wooden box with a heat lamp it works a cheaper alternative
Thank you, I practice with 7018's, but don't have a hotbox or rod oven, I store it in a plastic container provided with the rods.enjoying weld.com and Weldtube welding videos you guys are inspiring welding for everybody watching u-tube
According to what the weld engineers told me years ago, Lo-Hy rods are kept dry to prevent what they called "hydrogen embrittlement." They explained (hope I got this right) water disassociates in the arc to form oxygen gas which preferentially bonds with iron and floats off in the slag. The hydrogen is soluable in the melt. As the melt freezes, the hydrogen acccumulates along the fusion zone to interfere with the normal formation of crystal boundries, in effect, causing planes of weakness which, under cyclic stress, propagate, connect, and in time fail as though a brittle fracture in an otherwise ductile material. They went on to discuss porousity, defects in lattices, etc, in other words, paint a gloomy picture of the future of "embrittled high confidence welds in optimised structures" - you know how they talk.
I would have liked to have seen the sample you welded sectioned and etched to compare the two welds, maybe under 50X magnification if possible. The difference is supposed to be stark.
Obviously not so much a direct comparison like these two rods, but one of the ways that i have used 7018 in the past is wax coated when welding underwater. There are dedicated rods for wet welding, but depending on the intent of the weld the wax rods work fine. The strength of the weld is not intended to meet D1.1, but the AWS spec for wet welding reflects the reduced capability of the weld when compared to standard D1.1 weld. The heat at the point of fusion turns the flux into a protective atmosphere and will shield the rod, the additional moisture does make things harder. This was a great subject for a video, most often people post videos of things going right, it is nice to see the other side of the coin.
LOL the bloopers at the end were awesome, should show them more often!
I wait for every Monday , just to watch yur videos
Fernando Contreras ....Me too! Maybe that's a sad commentary on our lives......
Me too!! Nah, we look forward to real and valuable information. 😁
Cathie Zimmerman ......Oh, ....ok .....here's some, your a douche bag.
@@leebarnhart9725 you’re *
Bob, I think you read in our thoughts! Thank you ! As always, really interesting videos.
I make that same sound when I get slag peel!!!! Never can get enough of it
Learn sub arc. Peel for days 😎
Bob LH is only about keeping H2 out of the weld pool to minimize the risk of cracking. It's not at all about how easily a wet rod will weld vs a dry rod.....but you knew that ....
Thanks for sharing Bob! I get an education with every one of your videos!!!
To clarify, the rod is almost dry once the arc starts. It will weld almost the same, and fuse about the same. The flux just won't draw out the impurities the same way. The problem comes from hydrogen embrittlement. The weld would likely crack after a bend test or would crack eventually if put under stress. Low hydrogen rods that are no longer low hydrogen are just like any other stick electrode or a MIG/TIG weld.
Had to dust off the old like button again.
Lee Barnhart yep, concur.
Hey guys when you are put in the field you don't have a rod oven on the job sight all the time. Get a torch and preheat your rods with the burning torch and that a feather in your hat today. Welding in the school and in a chair is a whole lot different from Welding on the job sight. If your rods are wet preheat the Welding rods with a burning torch and preheat the area if your area is wet. They don't tell you these tricks in school because this is years of Welding .
Pearl harbor naval shipyard 30yrs retired
Bob is the father we all wish we had.
Air Arc or grind across that wet bead and see what lies below. Might find some interesting stuff.
Hola
You are a good man I really enjoy your videos!
i WAS taught to quench my rods before Welding my Root run for some reason i wish i knew why but was taught to wet my electrodes that were white, not sure if 7018 but it would increase a better or deeper penetration im concerned.
Thanks for this great video Bob. Real life is a getting rained or snowed on when out in the field. But that includes where your weld joint is. Aka, your steel is also wet to some degree.
I'm shocked you only stuck it once. Generally the ones not baked are really hard to start. After you burn about an inch or so off they start easy and weld fine. I use my tig welder with the high frequency start for all my stick welding now. No scratching, tapping, or whatever. Just floor it and go. Back off towards the end. Perfect.
That was funny it's like trying to weld with a hot dog
Always enjoy your videos, Bob!
Might have been more interesting to do separate butt joints and do a bend test on each to see if one is stronger than the other. (or anything else your testing expert guy thinks he should throw at it).
i.e. a test for what it is that 7018 is supposed to be good for and if it was degraded by the wet flux.
Yes, that would be the real test. Forget the cosmetic differences, weld strength is in part determined by how much hydrogen diffuses into the weld from the H2O.
Also agree that using a soaking wet rod is way outside of reality. Who would use a rod with water dripping off it?
Would have been interesting to see it etched too
Brian Sparks 6010s😎😎
like the out take at end , good one!
Bob is hilarious. Love watching him.
Your "bad" welds always still look better than my good welds!! 😂
ive often wondered this myself, very interesting. Great job Bob
We long arch our rod a few times that heats it up and helps weld a little not that it fixes any thing but seems to help
I was hoping for a cut 'n' etch, along with welder specs. Hey though, new stickers out?!!! Thanks boss, always cool watching you!
Iv'e used old rods sitting on my truck and passed a D1.1 test. They weren't dripping wet, but not in a rod oven.
Thanks for the refresher!
7018 is used a lot in the underwater welding industry... you could buy special rods made for underwater welding, but most of us just dips them in polyurethane or similar material to protect the rod before it is used
Loved seeing the water dripping out!
Lol.. gotta go to the bathroom... Hmm.. maybe soak some more rod?? See how it runs😎
The spotting on the bead was interesting, wondering if it might have been from the extra hydrogen from the water???
Should cut the coupon and check it out!!!
Good video Bob! Thanks!
What about storage in a WP ammo box? I use a a 50 cal and the rod's good for years. You can also put small quantities in the food sealer vac pac bags and seal them. Both methods limit air humidity transfer to the flux.
If you don't have a rod oven. Put them in a container with rice. The rice absorbs moisture or you can get dissent packets
Thank you sir ........ Your expertise is much appreciated ...... Cheers from India 🍻
Note: ASTM comparative-molecular H20 will act with your flux on a molecular level and effect & affect the weld, pursuant to the composition of the carbon structure within the steel.
Camera Guy, did good!
I did not figure it would be that good I thought cracks in the flux would make the arc wonder. I would like to see a video of the pros and cons of cutting with propane as fuel on a cutting rig
I welded flux core in the rain on an old gate. It ran fine not the same as stick but I'll say this it wasn't wet for very long
I absolutely love the denim welding jacket im not even gunna use it at work haha
Questions:
1. What manipulation is used during the welds?
2. What does the first weld pool look like and how does the electrode burn?
3. What does the second weld pool look like and how does the electrode burn?
4. What was the difference between the welds?
(Can you help me with my school work)
Moral of the story: don't SCUBA dive and then expect to strike an arc with the rods you used as dive weight and make a pretty repair on your truck's tow hitch.
At the start you could see the water boil off. I've had to run them.
If you get moist rods can you cook them to remove all moisture to make them usable again?
I don’t see why not assuming the flux stays on the rod and doesn’t crack and fall off
These out takes are as high quality as the video!!
I knew I liked u Bob u left handed!!!
Do a video on cutting with propane. Pros cons. Good video I did not expect the wet one to even do that good. I figured it would be real
I don't have any propane. Yet
@@bobmoffatt4133 I been using at the home shop for years. And almost every scrap yard uses it. I just wanted to hear your take on it. I appreciate your videos. I have been a welder for 25+yrs but never ran tig and watching you and Jodie at weldingtipsandtricks.com got me looking good. So thank you
@@jvmiller1995 I've used propane and natural gas on various jobs. Different BTU in the flame is all. Still makes clean cuts at the right settings and travel speed.
Cutting is fine with HC gases, the molten metal becomes swarf. But the increased water vapor overloads filler metal with hydrogen. Gas filler rods have hydrogen absorber.
I wonder. I saw steam coming off the surface of the wet rod. It looked as though it dried right as it got to the weld puddle. But that was an extreme.
With the wet rod, would it help to let the rod stick for a few seconds and heat up? Seems like heat would drive out some of the water.
You could see the water boiling out of that juicy morsel ahead of the puddle. Didn't that become high hydrogen rod? I don't use 6013 but have heard it should not be kept in a oven as it's supposed to contain a certain amount of moisture. Anybody else ever hear of such a thing or is that just another one of those I've heard?
I'll admit it, I've welded in the rain when I know I shouldn't have but I guess I got away with it. I've also voided any warranty when it was raining yet customer insisted he had to have machine running rain or shine. Sometimes you just got to size up the situation and go with what your gut feeling tells you to do and make the best of it as long as your not risking life or limb.
Don't like working in the rain anywho!
Cut and etch would have been a cool comparison
How about using rods that you found in your granddads shed?? Must be a shelf life on them?
Were going to add that in on the next go around.
@@Welddotcom sweet, cheers for the reply!!
Found some old 7024, welded just fine, probably 20 years old. Use on anything critical, probably not.
I used some 1/8" and 3/32" 7018 rods in my family's workshop and it's been there for 25 years, both were still in the 50# containers uncovered. I burned them on a fillet and did a hammer test on them and they held. Used them when I ran out of my own rods and the nearest welding store is 2.5 hours away. It's been 2 years since then and the homemade dirt road grader is still enduring wash boards.
I know their not 7018 rods, but I recently located some 6011 rods I had from back in 1971. Fired them up and they worked just like new 6011's. Was very surprised... I knew they were from 1971 because they were laying with some work I had done back then.
Dip a 6010 in water next... Not soak though unless you're planning on doing some cutting. Actually both would be cool to see you run for cut and weld testing.
Great videos. Could you also do a cut and etch tests on some those welds where your testing the electrodes performance?
Thank you for your awesome demonstration :D Tom
If you did this on any application like bucket teeth or cutting edges,first impact the deposits would fail,i have had this happen in the field,not a good day:(
You should have made a cracking test to show your point. Ofc dry is better, but this shows it doesn't matter either way.
If you don't have an oven can you store 7018 in an air tight tupperware when not using them keeping it sealed and only taking out 1 or 2 rods at a time then immediately resealing it. Small container just big enough for 1 kg of rod at a time. I am a mechanic and hobbiest not a pro welder or welding shop.
I would like to see you weld some hot dip galvanize with out grinding off the galvanize first
Have you heard of soaking 6010 to help them run or run better? I was having difficulties running an old red 6010, internet said soak it - crazy as it sounds - and to me, it seemed to run better oddly enough
I went to Hobart Welding School in the early 1980s ,saw the instructor dunk 6010 rods often.
Love these videos
Did you see the bubbles coming out of the flux on the rod as he was welding
Old man Moffat keep up the awesome work man. By the way how can I be like you always having a fresh pair of gloves for every clip.
Hey bob, perfect timing this vid, I’ve just tried out some 4mm 7018 low hydrogen, murex brand. I’m not sure how old they are but they are certainly dry. Tried dc electrode neg and positive and on AC and turned the arc force down to nil. Recommended on pack was 185amps but the slag is very weird, bubbles are appearing out of the weld pool either side as you go, ive never seen that. The bead seems to look ok, but slag isn’t releasing easy either. Do I throw these in the bin?
Thank you for making these vids. You have been super helpful to me, those boys you teach are lucky to have you.
Murex was good stuff. I'm pretty sure all 7018 I've ever used were AC/DCEP. None that I recall were designed to run DCEN.
Bet there is internal porosity
What about the rod that hasn't been in the water keep in a shop compared to rod from an oven?
If your welding on A36 or 44W coupon plate with no restraint then I don't think you could make it crack on purpose. However if you tried welding on some thick weathering steel. Maybe forget to pre heat it then I bet you would see some problems.
Always the good source and with “joke spatered”. Have you done same comparison with 601x ? I’m asking out of total ignorance (not a welder). Thanks.
Watch our hydrogen boil video.
I meant to test 6010 dry (oven) vrs 6010 wet. But don’t bother, I’m going over the whole channel and learning.
cut and etch it - hows it look from the wet and the 300f rod
Just a curious question - can you just use a regular kitchen oven to bake the rods before you start welding? I know they don't heat up to 600 Celsius, but some can get to 500 Celsius, so if I'm just hobby level welder noob, why not just to use my kitchen oven just before I start welding?
Love your vids you are a great instructor
Just started welding and I've just been tossing the rod that gets to moist in the garage dang it
What about welding under water