The best part of Quality is that you can ignore it. Like trains, bots, modules, biters, belts, social life and food. Most people will only go for equipment legendarys.
@@galdocstutorials and massive spreadsheets I am kinda addicted to recipes that loop. The Arcoshperes in SpaceEx are the best. Building and tweaking a balancer machine was so funny!
well, there's a snag with always going for legendaries: the quality levels are unlocked on the other planets, so unless you're willing to play the majority of the game without equipment, you won't start with legendaries
@@666Tomato666 Based on the wording of the blog post, I'm pretty sure that Quality as a mechanic will be available to players who purchased the expansion, but chose not to enable the 'mod' that has all of the expansion stuff. Modders will most likely get access to the API of the mechanic, but the resulting mod will require having purchased the expansion to work, as it will be using expansion features. I do hope it will be possible to play the 'base game' and just take some of the expansion features, like the Quality stuff, if you purchased the expansion.
@@av3stube480 Yes, I know that all that stuff should be toggle-able. And they even said that you should be able to play and finish the expansion without using higher quality stuff. But that's not my problem. I do find it interesting and would like to use it. But unlike in single player games, where you just need one sword (of a given type) so deciding if you're going to use rare one or a legendary one is quite simple, you will be making thousands of walls, hundreds of assemblers, etc.
For me I hope that this won't turn into "Grind down iron plate until they are all legendary so you can have guaranteed legendaries down the line" type of thing.
There may be practical issues with the expense of that kind of plan. Certainly, for fast games I don't there will be time for upgrading much of anything.
If we go off just what was shown in the FF, not sure if iron plate will be able to be recycled, but instead, yes, what you said does seem to be the case currently, but with intermediaries, they will be ground down and recrafted again and again so as to get higher and higher quality, to then guarantee that higher quality for products using those products. As shown at 03:21 And add that to the fact that the recycler was said to only return 25% materials and there will be a vanilla soft coded limit of +300% productivity (not that vanilla has enough module slots to get both productivity AND quality to high levels), that means you'll always be grinding for higher quality at a major resource loss too.
@@Bandit2033 I mean, we could easily do, at the start of a megabase's bus, a loop of Iron plates into gear, back iron plates. Then we have full legendaries down the line. One way I'd implement it, is to take the average quality, floor it, and have a 1/100 chance to upgrade the average quality to +1, and a 1/10 chance of downgrading to -1. But that might need balancing. I feel like early quality should be rewarded, and as well as final quality needing a bit of work. As well as every end recipe having a benefit from quality to not bother players to do a low quality filter just to not waste it on useless stuff.
Iron plates probably can't be recycled. How you create quality iron instead appears to be by placing quality modules in recyclers, then recycling items containing iron. This seems a bit backwards. I don't think recyclers should spit out anything above the quality of the item being recycled.
While the names made me cringe at the start, the fact these namings are so ubiquitous makes sense and they actually grew on me. About getting higher qualities from different input materials - really cool idea! Hope the API will let you do this. Finally, after Wube ended up hiring Earendel and Raiguard... I have a tingly feeling that Galdoc might be snatched up next, being a multi-talent (programming and art) with some unique ideas.
Quality really does seem like a good feature! I liked the way they talked about how quality is both a "slot machine" kind of mechanic, but also an exercise in statistics when you zoom out
With recyclers, the idea behind that is that you scrap the products that have too many fabrication errors. It feels weird because usually there should be more good quality products than bad. But on the other hand we are working with a handmade machines made from unpure ore on an alien planet. Results should be less than optimal.
Hm. I suppose that is the kinder version of 'item failure'. Like, it's crummy but it still works. Eh. I dunno, I get that but I'm not quite there yet. That's a good perspective tho.
while the lore like that is good, what's more important is for it work as a game mechanic and I'm not so sure how well it will mesh with inventory management (even if higher tiers give more inventory slots)
About one of the last questions: if u give mixed items to a recipe, it'll behave based on the lowest tier item u have. Also liquids don't have quality and (apparently) ignored for such calculations. Some other stuff devs shared in discord: - U can choose a rarity for a recipe, it means that it will accept only items of certain quality (inserters won't try to put smt different) and u're guaranteed to get a product of same quality (quality modules still work ofc). - There are exactly 256 slots for quality tiers, cause devs use uint8 for it (well, more like 254 cause 2 are reserved for stuff), but bonus from it isn't tied to position in that list, so u can mess around with it a lot or smt. - Quality can't decrease cause of negative influence of speed modules. - Quality jumps work like that: u have some chance to increase quality from quality modules. If this chance rolled successfully, then u roll another 10% to jump 2 tiers up instead. Then another 10% to jump 3 tiers up instead. And so on. So for example if u have 20% quality chance it's end ups with like: 80% to stay same tier (lets say it's common), 18% to become uncommon, 1.8% for rare, 0.18% for epic, 0.02% for legendary. Basically all increases sums up to 20% but chance to get specifically uncommon is less then stated 20%. - Recycling stuff without recipe will just output the same thing (losing 3/4 of it ofc), so it's a way to boost quality of ore for example. Not a good one, but a way (getting quality coal is much more efficient via crafting and recycling grenades for example). Devs said that smelter and refinery products can't be recycled but it's unclear if it just won't be accepted, or if it will recycle into itself. Also if liquids involved into crafting, they will be lost on recycling. - Belts of different quality won't have different speed, cause it was causing a mess, apparently. Undergrounds of different quality will connect to each other no problem and have same max length. - Science packs of legendary quality have 6 times more science juice in them.
Why limit things to 8bit integers sure you probably don't need mroe but, I mean RAM usage is not really a problem so why care about a few extra bytes to go 16bit or 32bit.
@@intquant Sure but even with millions of item stacks going from 8 to 16 bits is a few extra MBs. Sure any reasonable use of qualities probably won't need more then 256 qualities but it's still a pretty tight limits of mods want go crazy and really abuse the feature in some way.
This opens up possibilities for a whole new range of modules. Some I can come up with immediately: - Refinement Module: Gives a chance to create the item at one quality tier higher (or lower, or brick completely and output scrap lol). - Stabilization Module: Removes the chance of bricking but increases build time. - Consistency Module: Makes it unnecessary to reroute outputs from failed attempts and just restarts the build cycle without using up more resources (or just backfill a fraction) but always produces the selected quality without waste/byproducts. Idk if some modules would need to be mutually exclusive, and wether that could be achieved with the current mod api, but I'm absolutely excited for your mod anyways!! Oh and the eventual DoshDoshington 500 hour mega build :>
YESSS!!!!!! I was skeptical about the expansion's qualities, since they felt artificial. But combined with your mod, having different metal with different qualities, now THAT makes a whole lot of freaking sense ! Now suddenly, I'm super excited !
i dont know a whole lot about this project, but the way you described it seems really cool, it makes a lot of sense and adds a cool reward for using more complex materials. it seems like a cool thing to look further into
I like your idea of different materials give the same output but with different quality a lot more. I feel like it should be a set guarantee instead of RNG to give quality parts as you mentioned. The idea that I can use nickel to make electrically-conductive wiring instead of copper/gold/electrum but also getting no quality bonus gives a lot more options. Specially it would allow the player to specifically use certain rare ores to just manufacture quality products, while also keeping their base running on normal quality products made from more abundant ores is a great way to replicate scarcity. And it would also force the player to either explore and fight to get the rarer ores, or make do with the available ores. This type of optional/choice based gameplay is much more fun to play rather than the RNG, recycle until you get something good quality method Wube seems to go for. Please do expand on this idea, this is a very good idea. I cant play to play your mod now, and with the quality update added. EDIT: Also absolutely love the flooring adding temp quality idea as well. Although I am not sure how one would implement this, as far as I am aware there in no way for an machine (obviously other than miners, etc) to detect the flooring they are sitting on. But if you do manage to find a way, this would be another great thing. It would replace the monotone reinforced concrete everywhere to run fast idea with a base that looks much more refined and complicated. You are an absolute genius with the new ideas you came up with for quality mechanic. I was afraid that it would bog down the game (which it still can) but the ability for mod makes to come up with such amazing ideas to change it up to make it much better is incredible!
3:22 omg no, i would love that. To build a gigantic factory which is just trying to make the hightest tier items. If it's finished u can just watch it afk and enjoy :DD
I feel like quality would be made better if the quality effected different parts of the machine, like speed or productivity depending on which part used to make it had a higher quality. Like if a diamond tipped machining bit increased productivity by reducing waste, or if titanium framing allowed higher speed because of better structural integrity.
Yeah. I get the sense it was done this way to minimize how much per-entitiy data was needed, but that doesn't sound like it adds much more? I'm not quite sure. I like that idea too tho!
I was thinking: what if you use pY AL style modules that are required for a minissembler to function, and each one has multiple upgrades? Each minissembler would need multiple modules of varying degrees of complexity to run based on the recipe.
@@galdocstutorials each building that produces flora or fauna (this would be different for your mod) can only have that specific flora/fauna as a module. There are different levels, each with better and better speed modifiers. Different machines have different numbers of slots, and each machine is scripted to not operate unless at least one module is inserted, no matter the rarity
Great stuff, I'm really excited to see what you come up with! Also, you managed to summarize pretty well how I feel about the whole quality thing. Particularly the rarity/awesomeness argument about the names was spot on. But I'm pretty sure they can and will be persuaded to change the naming system. And generally, from previous experience I'm pretty sure Wube will create something beautiful with this idea. As you said, we shouldn't judge before we get to see the final product. Also, I definitely want to have a legendary used up uranium fuel cell now!
I absolutely love the quality mechanic, i keep finding myself going back to the FFF blog looking at it longingly wishing i could play with it, idk if any other teased feature in any other game has made me do that before. super hyped
I really don’t like these kind of systems in other games, I just don’t like how you have to collect so many items to get 1 good one. But I definitely want to see what unique direction Wube takes this.
In factorio it makes sense. Megabase resource quantities are fun in its own right in this game, so another level of complexity would be a nice touch for my future megabase.
I think there is a cool version of this floating out there in ideaspace somewhere. I don't know if we're there -- but ... maybe we are and I just need to try it.
I think it'll at least be better in Factorio because of how improved materials guarantee improved products, and most materials are produced at such massive scale that the general rpg problem of "grind for hours or just get lucky and get it in 30 seconds" won't really come into play. The law of large numbers will really help it not feel so bad.
@@MiIIiIIion exactly, factorio works with such large scales that you really can take something like a 0.1% chance at face value and just plan for one in a thousand.
Great video, just found this channel, I 100% agree we need less loot-box quality names. But your idea for integrating it with you mod's a genius idea I hope we can see others use as well.
I definitely agree with your perspective on this topic. The names really put me (and a lot of people) off from the idea at the beginning, despite the mechanics being promising. I also think presenting the recycling loop they showed in the FFF was a miss-step. I don't think I'll ever build a setup like that, except maybe for when desperately needing something high quality for a space platform - it makes much more sense to me to simply stick quality modules in your generic intermediate manufacturing hubs, and just siphoning off higher quality items from your normal builds (allowing the normal tier items to be used in science). This way instead of higher quality items costing up to 50x the normal item cost, all you're losing is the opportunity cost of no prod modules.
I think it will add a level of complexity that's not necessarily needed. All we are going to do is create a factory 20 times larger to recycle all the lesser than "legendary" that the normal factory produces. We will see.
If they design it such that there are things that lower quality items are better suited for than high quality ones then you would end up with a situation where quality control is a balancing act instead of a min/maxing problem, where you only produce to the quality you need. You already lose resources from recycling, so if they just made it so that only a portion of the materials used need to be of the highest quality for best results (or really any combination of material quality) then prioritizing where different quality products go is still important in the super late game.
I think the challenge will be deciding when to make the jump from scarcely going for higher-tier items to deciding to go for all legendary items. If that still sounds problematic, I’d argue that Prod modules + speed beacons have already caused a similar homogenization of factory design for the current game version. Hell, the fact that quality is added via a module means you’ll need to decide where to trade off quality for productivity bonuses or vice versa for intermediaries
Randomness of quality is my biggest concern with the update. Implementing quality based on input materials makes so much more sense, i'll exclusively play with those changes if you implement it :)
One thing I feel like a lot of people are missing is that in large quantities, such as any factorio build, randomness just becomes statistical. For example, if you flip a coin five times while trying to get a tails and get heads four times, then you'd have a 20% win rate which may seem unfair, but if you flip it a thousand times, then it's gonna be almost exactly 50/50 if you win or not. Same goes with quality, so you can really just look at a 90/10% chance to get an epic vs a legendary as getting one legendary after every nine epics
Amazing video and I agree so much in the possibilities it gives you and your mod. And I also agree with the naming, when it comes to quality of a "machined/assembled" product, you simply do not describe it with RPG nomenclature.. And lastly, as a person who is (for some reason) a very big metal/chemistry enthusiast, my brain went full happy chemicals when I saw the materials, I love realism in games like these :D
About your last point there is a mod called stable fundations (or something of the like) that change properties of entities according to the tiles down each, maybe you could look at that for reference
What I'm imagining for the recycling back issue is that I could have a side factory that is dedicated to building good modules, and the lower tier unwanted modules can be sent back to the "regular" factory to get turned into science or whatever. That way there is no infinite recycling. But then it comes with problems like what if the main factory cannot consume that many iron gears or whatever. exciting considerations indeed
First video if yours I see, I was curious due to the title and never heard of your mod. Looks quite interesting! Currently doing an IR3 game, and from the looks of it your mod is a bit similar with the intermediates, but expands on it? Definitely going to keep an eye on it and possibly try it once I'm done with IR3. I hope the modding framework allows for what you intend with the fixed/minimum quality. Sounds really cool as a concept to use higher tier materials to guarantee higher quality!
I am not sure if they mentioned it, but I hope the rng works in a way where if the odds are 1% then you will always get one of that rarity every 100 crafts. Also quality chance should be 0 without the modules
Someone on the forums said it well enough for the namings and it was, Legendary Solar Panel, so what legendary stories are to be told about this solar panel. It just doesn't make sense. The names were obviously picked out as placeholders though.. I hope..
as a mechanic for the vanilla game this does not seem that appealing however when put in the context of it being a feature of the space age expansions it would make sense as you start multiple times on a blank canvas that each time you have slightly better components to build up with
For iron and steel, one could easily tier them by purity and/or hardening. ie high purity hardened iron as max tier. One could even add casting to that as an intermediate step before hardening. I am no expert in metalurgy so other metals/alloys probably would need their own thing.
Imagine for bob's angels mods. Instead of just giving slightly more product for doing the really long production chains, it could give us higher quality products due to the more involved ore purifcation process.
I think quality will work well if its implemented in a way that makes it easy to upgrade or get legendary versions of items. If its meant for a way to compact factories and reduce lag, it shouldnt be a grind to get them
I respect your view! But, I don't agree. I don't think it should be a *grind* per se, I think it should be a *design challenge*. But, to be fair, grinds do show up often as elements of design challenges. Just my 2c.
It strikes me as a feature I'll only really take a proper look at once I've obtained all the science packs and are prepping to go into mega base mode. Working towards power armour and spidertron upgrades to speed up expansion builds seems like a no brainer to me, but before that I just need to get done researching everything
Quality as an idea but I'd like it more to be different advantages you get based on what components you use like some components give you energy efficency while others give you crafting speed. That would lead to more versatile constructs
i think the recycler is a bad idea and just makes this a grindy loot box rng joke. there should be some stamping machine that can upgrade base parts to a refined part maybe using more power or pollution but guarantees a rare or epic version with a 3>1 ratio or so. where u can use legendary parts or "fine machined low tolerance" to build a well optimized nuclear reactor. where u trade production time/power for size so u need only 1 reactor for the same output as 9. goal of balance shouldnt be a 1% chance drop but rather be "inefficient" for pollution power but at the end makes a high quality product. for things that arent industrialized like u only need 1 armor or 1 gun or 1 train
i think the best system is like risk of rain 2 handles item rarity itens that are ment 2b used much be the losest tier and higher tier material means you spend less per recipe with them also be garantee to get a desired outcome, like lets say a machine have 3 upgrade slots, if i have a tier 5 machine and all upgrades be used for quality instead of speed,energy efficiency the recipe is a garanteed tier 5 item
one of my concerns is that if it's RNG based, you could end up with, say, 3 different tiers of each electric pole in your inventory, taking up 9 slots (12 if you include substations) while only having a handful of each
@@galdocstutorials a smart way they would get around this is they all stack in one pile. the stackwould have a little colour identifyer showing theres multiple qualities in that stack. once you hover over the stack you choose which quality you want either scrolling through them ect and then clicking on it as per normal. the only worry is it wouldnt work with hotbar.
3:21 I get this. To me, Factorio as a factory simulation has been missing part quality as a source of waste you must mitigate in your pipeline, but I'm not sure if this'll just lead to us building ad-hoc recyclers for any "quality" machine. It might be nice to actually have a tier that's below normal just called "waste" that is useless and has to be filtered, but I can also see how this can be annoying 2:19 Yes. I have been stalwart fan of the WoW item categorization for years, but this a great case where it makes no sense and the names should be changed, since we can keep the colors and basically have the same benefits.
The real life quality of materials is often influenced by the purity of their base components (in the case of metals, their ore) so ways of pretreating, cleaning and refining ore, could lead to higher quality final products. That would at least be my thoughts on a quality mechanic.
imo they named (and colored tho i think the colors can stay how they are, theres no easy way to tell if product a is better manufactured than product b simply by looking at their colors) the quality system like that because its something everyone is familiar with from many other games and easy to catch on. tho i do agree that for a game about making a factory they should be renamed to more apropriate terms
Personally I'd go with the Dwarf Fortress quality levels: Standard > Well-crafted > Superior > Exceptional > Masterwork. But maybe that's just my love of DF talking...
5:13 But uhm the thing is: how your idea interacts with quality modules? Does it increase max or no? Of course we don't get to know how quality modules work for now inside code, but I would just keep that in mind (I think?).
2:18 Gonna have to say you are looking at the quality descriptors with the wrong perspective. "Scarcity" and "Amazingness" are both qualities. That is to say, they are a property of something. When it comes to the qualities an object has, the adjectives used to describe that quality can be used equally, generally speaking. So Wube is perfectly fine in using "Uncommon", "Rare", "Epic" and "Legendary" as adjectives to describe the production quality of an item. Thought in another way, a "Legendary" item is, yes going to be super amazing, but it is also going to be super scarce. An item that is "Uncommon" is also going to be infrequent to come across, but it is also going to stand out, if for no other reason than being infrequent to come across. So both adjectives can very easily imply both qualities simultaneously. On a side note, while it is true that some of the Wube founders are also fans of World of Warcraft, they didn't invent the color coded rarity/quality scheme. Some earlier Blizzard titles had such a scheme like Diablo 1 and 2. I am trying to think if others had something like that too. Magic the Gathering has used colors on the symbols of the cards the tell you which printing the card came from to denote rarity as well and that's been around since 1993. Then, finally, color has often long played a role in denoting people of importance and power. Purple was long considered the color of royalty and more going back millennia. In ancient Rome, it was reserved for the Senate and used in important buildings.
Yeah, I really don't like how the devs decided to implement this feature. I hope they will release API for it to allow modders to ovehaul it. Personally, instead of flat bonuses, I would like to have the ability to modify the properties of the material more freely. Like let's say you can add chrome and/or nickel to steel - you get stainless steel, and any building that uses it will get acid resistance bonus Also it could be required to build chemical labs. Or add wolfram and you get high speed steel - and let's say drills with it get a mining speed bonus, armor gets extra defense, and ammunition - armor piercing. And why should quality only be positive? It would be cool that if you just throw mined ore into the furnace - you will get shitty iron with a bunch of penalties. And to get better quality, you have to refine the ore.
Oh no. K2SE is hard enough, but with quality the amount of stuff I would have to filter would rise exponentially. What an actual logistic nightmare that would be.
The one thing that I'm slightly worried about is that the quality system is meant to only be available with the upcoming DLC, meaning that for players to use your mod they would need to buy the DLC first
The more I think about it the more it feels like Quality MUST be co-existing with something else. We'll see very soon. As for game design, the puzzles they give us are absolutely genius. Say logistics. We don't get loaders or better belts than blue, nor too fast inserters. Getting loaders makes inserters useless in many cases, simplifying that part of the puzzle that building a factory is. Legendary inserters will be 2.5 times faster though so we'll see how that evolves. I love belt weaving. Limited underground belt length makes you think about the problems instead of just ignore and go by everything. In K2 the underground belts have much longer segments and 2 more tiers of belt making it more viable in late game builds. It's intentional that legendary belts aren't 2.5 times faster, that's probably for logistics purposes or belts are simply so mass produced it's kinda wasteful and only useful for defenses since you have a health buff. I've tried adding mods for logistics, but it just doesn't feel good. Look at the complex balancer books. A little more unique logistic parts and that's gone. You don't really need balancers, but they're useful in cases like trains to ensure fast even unloading instead of one wagon being full while the rest are empty. Train stations will probably be the first go-to place for legendary inserters. Also imagine legendary fish, like will it heal 2.5x the health? 😂 The most obvious of puzzles is Uranium and I wish there's something to complicate it even further optionally. Maybe radiation damage from the enriched uranium or from a higher energy atom. Generally Factorio is a puzzling problem solving game and many forget that. Can't wait for the legendary fish!
It's certanly a very specific or not RNG stuff because if its RNG imagine what could just a simple green science block do. Spitting a ton of inserters with different rarity sorting legendary and epic while dumping common into crafting more science. Also this could ruin bases because there are some machines that can output more and clog critical areas or make bottlenecks.
I agree with your assessment of the mechanic as it is proposed, there's potential here but the current names are not very good for Factorio & the way the recycling proposal works is not great. Unless we can recycle plates back into ore of higher Quality (I doubt it), you can only improve the Quality on your inputs so much without recycle loops of some variety. I understand why it's like this, a vanilla-appropriate solution is hard to find & they are hard focused on not breaking their game's balance or feel. Your solution for your own mod is a great way of approaching that problem in a modded environment though. Having stumbled my way into green science with your mod on Advanced so far, how you imagine the Quality mechanic is exactly what I thought was missing in the mod as well. The variety & player choice of the properties system is quite nice, consolidating production to 1 metal feels great honestly even if its wasteful... but a little extra bonus through Quality down the line could be an even more interesting tradeoff. This creates a lot of potential for player choice & feels more satisfying, alongside a bit more of that realism flavor. Balancing materials & processing to affect yields of high quality product, instead of just processing. As for the names... why not skip the localized nouns all together? Your first suggested set of names solves it quite easily while keeping the same flavor as the current names, but these tiers could simply be numbered in some way too. Sure "Excellent Productivity Module 3" rolls off the tongue a bit better than "Quality 4 Productivity Module 3" but I am willing to bet more Factorio players would remember the latter (shortened to just "Q4"), or simply refer to them with their colors like we do for everything already.
I turned to localization only because it seemed like it would make sense if some item kind of resisted a one-size-fits-all naming scheme. Like, I'm not sure 'Excellent' Used-up Uranium Fuel Cell is great -- though you may be right in that it's good enough. :)
I think your use of diferent metals would work really well with the diferent "quality" of the items and add a ludicrous amount of progression and science research. And best of all, FIX the whole "destroy the part and remake it until it's good". For example, in the early game you can only have the "normal" quality of items and assemblers since the ore and metals you have access have poor properties like: -being relatively brittle (can't work with steel yet and crafting speed being slow) -reactive with acids and oxigen (can't make use of some fluids) -conductivity (for certain functions the energy efficiency is garbage) and many others that my brain cannot brain. In terms of progression, It could go for something similar to the Terraria "post hardmode", where you have to first get cobalt, with that cobalt you get mithryl, and with this one you get adamantium, and then you get going with your bosses. The same could be achieved to replace the "destroy the part to remake it until it's good", they make a small assembly like that machine by machine, as you gain better parts, uses the higher quality parts in order to make the final assembly machine that can finnaly build itself with less steps to pass the recipe from the low quality pieces to a higher quality pieces. Making you solve a small puzzle that rewards you with an assembler that allows you to access what would be the next tier of material quality, either by allowing a more efficient way to refine the original ore and allowing the use of straight up better materials. In the end with that better assembler, you could make the same result with what needed to be 5 diferent machines, and turn it into a 1 step machine with more varied material intake. Essencially, a "normal" assembler could only work with "normal" materials (iron, copper...) , a "well-tuned" assembler could work with "normal" materials faster and "good" materials (bronze, steel...) with regular speed, and so on. And the progression is figuring out how to make the next assembler, or miner and pump that lets you use better stuff.
"The idea that I make something and then immediately trash it to try and remake it better quality feels bad man" *Screams in capitalism* Honestly feel like this mechanic would feel kinda on-point for factorio. The amount of goods that companies either break down or just throw away because despite being perfectly usable, don't meet some arbitrary quality standard... oof.
I think they wanted dumb way to implement overhaul mod's production scaling. But instead of complicated production line and simple result we will have simple and annoying additive to every production line with complicated result. A bit too punishing for player and makes building a mall straight up impossible for this type of things.
Honestly I’m not really sold on the idea of manufacturing 100 plates and trashing 99 of them just to get better quality. I completely misses the usual flow of more basic recipe equals lesser efficiency. With addition of not RNG but new process or material adding Quality to the game will be much better.
i love it, people who hate it, cant just ignore it, and play as they used to, nothing will change it. They just dont benefit from the extra productive and speed. :D
As described on the page, quality intermediates make quality products, with a base quality (which has a chance of increasing into regular quality) of the intermediates' quality. In your mod you can make it so different resources have different Base Qualities in different products. Also, why did it take 3 months to make a UA-cam video about your mod? (i mean you could have at least done weekly devlogs, LIKE FACTORIO ITSELF) And, can you make it have it's own milestone preset?
one are videos and the other are mainly text with some pictures, remember they were developing a DLC for years. So basically your criticism can be used against WUBE.
@@Zer0_Decepti0n I didn't leave that much space so even i don't know where the "second paragraph" is. I thought it was just 1 paragraph, LIKE THIS comment.
The best part of Quality is that you can ignore it.
Like trains, bots, modules, biters, belts, social life and food.
Most people will only go for equipment legendarys.
That's fair. It seems like *such* a good opportunity for rich gameplay tho.
@@galdocstutorials and massive spreadsheets
I am kinda addicted to recipes that loop. The Arcoshperes in SpaceEx are the best.
Building and tweaking a balancer machine was so funny!
well, there's a snag with always going for legendaries: the quality levels are unlocked on the other planets, so unless you're willing to play the majority of the game without equipment, you won't start with legendaries
@@666Tomato666 Based on the wording of the blog post, I'm pretty sure that Quality as a mechanic will be available to players who purchased the expansion, but chose not to enable the 'mod' that has all of the expansion stuff. Modders will most likely get access to the API of the mechanic, but the resulting mod will require having purchased the expansion to work, as it will be using expansion features.
I do hope it will be possible to play the 'base game' and just take some of the expansion features, like the Quality stuff, if you purchased the expansion.
@@av3stube480 Yes, I know that all that stuff should be toggle-able. And they even said that you should be able to play and finish the expansion without using higher quality stuff.
But that's not my problem. I do find it interesting and would like to use it. But unlike in single player games, where you just need one sword (of a given type) so deciding if you're going to use rare one or a legendary one is quite simple, you will be making thousands of walls, hundreds of assemblers, etc.
The Legendary Used-Up Uranium Fuel Cell. *Heavenly choirs*
For me I hope that this won't turn into "Grind down iron plate until they are all legendary so you can have guaranteed legendaries down the line" type of thing.
Same. But -- we'll see how it plays out when it lands.
There may be practical issues with the expense of that kind of plan. Certainly, for fast games I don't there will be time for upgrading much of anything.
If we go off just what was shown in the FF, not sure if iron plate will be able to be recycled, but instead, yes, what you said does seem to be the case currently, but with intermediaries, they will be ground down and recrafted again and again so as to get higher and higher quality, to then guarantee that higher quality for products using those products. As shown at 03:21
And add that to the fact that the recycler was said to only return 25% materials and there will be a vanilla soft coded limit of +300% productivity (not that vanilla has enough module slots to get both productivity AND quality to high levels), that means you'll always be grinding for higher quality at a major resource loss too.
@@Bandit2033 I mean, we could easily do, at the start of a megabase's bus, a loop of Iron plates into gear, back iron plates.
Then we have full legendaries down the line.
One way I'd implement it, is to take the average quality, floor it, and have a 1/100 chance to upgrade the average quality to +1, and a 1/10 chance of downgrading to -1.
But that might need balancing. I feel like early quality should be rewarded, and as well as final quality needing a bit of work.
As well as every end recipe having a benefit from quality to not bother players to do a low quality filter just to not waste it on useless stuff.
Iron plates probably can't be recycled. How you create quality iron instead appears to be by placing quality modules in recyclers, then recycling items containing iron. This seems a bit backwards. I don't think recyclers should spit out anything above the quality of the item being recycled.
While the names made me cringe at the start, the fact these namings are so ubiquitous makes sense and they actually grew on me.
About getting higher qualities from different input materials - really cool idea! Hope the API will let you do this.
Finally, after Wube ended up hiring Earendel and Raiguard... I have a tingly feeling that Galdoc might be snatched up next, being a multi-talent (programming and art) with some unique ideas.
I'm available! heehee. :)
Quality really does seem like a good feature! I liked the way they talked about how quality is both a "slot machine" kind of mechanic, but also an exercise in statistics when you zoom out
With recyclers, the idea behind that is that you scrap the products that have too many fabrication errors. It feels weird because usually there should be more good quality products than bad. But on the other hand we are working with a handmade machines made from unpure ore on an alien planet. Results should be less than optimal.
Hm. I suppose that is the kinder version of 'item failure'. Like, it's crummy but it still works. Eh. I dunno, I get that but I'm not quite there yet. That's a good perspective tho.
while the lore like that is good, what's more important is for it work as a game mechanic
and I'm not so sure how well it will mesh with inventory management (even if higher tiers give more inventory slots)
agree, and also, in computer manufacturing, you tend to have failed silicon wafers and stuff
Makes sense...but then the tiers need to be renamed:
Tier 1: Waste
Tier 2: Reject
Tier 3: Inferior
Tier 4: ""
Tier 5: High-Quality
About one of the last questions: if u give mixed items to a recipe, it'll behave based on the lowest tier item u have. Also liquids don't have quality and (apparently) ignored for such calculations.
Some other stuff devs shared in discord:
- U can choose a rarity for a recipe, it means that it will accept only items of certain quality (inserters won't try to put smt different) and u're guaranteed to get a product of same quality (quality modules still work ofc).
- There are exactly 256 slots for quality tiers, cause devs use uint8 for it (well, more like 254 cause 2 are reserved for stuff), but bonus from it isn't tied to position in that list, so u can mess around with it a lot or smt.
- Quality can't decrease cause of negative influence of speed modules.
- Quality jumps work like that: u have some chance to increase quality from quality modules. If this chance rolled successfully, then u roll another 10% to jump 2 tiers up instead. Then another 10% to jump 3 tiers up instead. And so on. So for example if u have 20% quality chance it's end ups with like: 80% to stay same tier (lets say it's common), 18% to become uncommon, 1.8% for rare, 0.18% for epic, 0.02% for legendary. Basically all increases sums up to 20% but chance to get specifically uncommon is less then stated 20%.
- Recycling stuff without recipe will just output the same thing (losing 3/4 of it ofc), so it's a way to boost quality of ore for example. Not a good one, but a way (getting quality coal is much more efficient via crafting and recycling grenades for example). Devs said that smelter and refinery products can't be recycled but it's unclear if it just won't be accepted, or if it will recycle into itself. Also if liquids involved into crafting, they will be lost on recycling.
- Belts of different quality won't have different speed, cause it was causing a mess, apparently. Undergrounds of different quality will connect to each other no problem and have same max length.
- Science packs of legendary quality have 6 times more science juice in them.
Very useful information. Thank you
Why limit things to 8bit integers sure you probably don't need mroe but, I mean RAM usage is not really a problem so why care about a few extra bytes to go 16bit or 32bit.
@@KeinNiemand cause
@@KeinNiemand Because it's 8bits per item(stack).
@@intquant Sure but even with millions of item stacks going from 8 to 16 bits is a few extra MBs. Sure any reasonable use of qualities probably won't need more then 256 qualities but it's still a pretty tight limits of mods want go crazy and really abuse the feature in some way.
This opens up possibilities for a whole new range of modules. Some I can come up with immediately:
- Refinement Module: Gives a chance to create the item at one quality tier higher (or lower, or brick completely and output scrap lol).
- Stabilization Module: Removes the chance of bricking but increases build time.
- Consistency Module: Makes it unnecessary to reroute outputs from failed attempts and just restarts the build cycle without using up more resources (or just backfill a fraction) but always produces the selected quality without waste/byproducts.
Idk if some modules would need to be mutually exclusive, and wether that could be achieved with the current mod api, but I'm absolutely excited for your mod anyways!!
Oh and the eventual DoshDoshington 500 hour mega build :>
YESSS!!!!!! I was skeptical about the expansion's qualities, since they felt artificial. But combined with your mod, having different metal with different qualities, now THAT makes a whole lot of freaking sense ! Now suddenly, I'm super excited !
i dont know a whole lot about this project, but the way you described it seems really cool, it makes a lot of sense and adds a cool reward for using more complex materials. it seems like a cool thing to look further into
I like your idea of different materials give the same output but with different quality a lot more. I feel like it should be a set guarantee instead of RNG to give quality parts as you mentioned. The idea that I can use nickel to make electrically-conductive wiring instead of copper/gold/electrum but also getting no quality bonus gives a lot more options. Specially it would allow the player to specifically use certain rare ores to just manufacture quality products, while also keeping their base running on normal quality products made from more abundant ores is a great way to replicate scarcity. And it would also force the player to either explore and fight to get the rarer ores, or make do with the available ores. This type of optional/choice based gameplay is much more fun to play rather than the RNG, recycle until you get something good quality method Wube seems to go for. Please do expand on this idea, this is a very good idea. I cant play to play your mod now, and with the quality update added.
EDIT: Also absolutely love the flooring adding temp quality idea as well. Although I am not sure how one would implement this, as far as I am aware there in no way for an machine (obviously other than miners, etc) to detect the flooring they are sitting on. But if you do manage to find a way, this would be another great thing. It would replace the monotone reinforced concrete everywhere to run fast idea with a base that looks much more refined and complicated. You are an absolute genius with the new ideas you came up with for quality mechanic. I was afraid that it would bog down the game (which it still can) but the ability for mod makes to come up with such amazing ideas to change it up to make it much better is incredible!
3:22 omg no, i would love that. To build a gigantic factory which is just trying to make the hightest tier items. If it's finished u can just watch it afk and enjoy :DD
Fair :)
I feel like quality would be made better if the quality effected different parts of the machine, like speed or productivity depending on which part used to make it had a higher quality.
Like if a diamond tipped machining bit increased productivity by reducing waste, or if titanium framing allowed higher speed because of better structural integrity.
Yeah. I get the sense it was done this way to minimize how much per-entitiy data was needed, but that doesn't sound like it adds much more? I'm not quite sure. I like that idea too tho!
I was thinking: what if you use pY AL style modules that are required for a minissembler to function, and each one has multiple upgrades? Each minissembler would need multiple modules of varying degrees of complexity to run based on the recipe.
I'm not sure! I'd have to look at how Py did it; I didn't get very far.
@@galdocstutorials each building that produces flora or fauna (this would be different for your mod) can only have that specific flora/fauna as a module. There are different levels, each with better and better speed modifiers. Different machines have different numbers of slots, and each machine is scripted to not operate unless at least one module is inserted, no matter the rarity
Great stuff, I'm really excited to see what you come up with!
Also, you managed to summarize pretty well how I feel about the whole quality thing. Particularly the rarity/awesomeness argument about the names was spot on. But I'm pretty sure they can and will be persuaded to change the naming system. And generally, from previous experience I'm pretty sure Wube will create something beautiful with this idea. As you said, we shouldn't judge before we get to see the final product.
Also, I definitely want to have a legendary used up uranium fuel cell now!
This is definitely 100% the kind of thing that should be made into a plushie. :)
I absolutely love the quality mechanic, i keep finding myself going back to the FFF blog looking at it longingly wishing i could play with it, idk if any other teased feature in any other game has made me do that before. super hyped
I really don’t like these kind of systems in other games, I just don’t like how you have to collect so many items to get 1 good one. But I definitely want to see what unique direction Wube takes this.
I feel the same way but with the automating gameplay of Factorio I think this is a really neat concept for the mid/late game!
In factorio it makes sense. Megabase resource quantities are fun in its own right in this game, so another level of complexity would be a nice touch for my future megabase.
I think there is a cool version of this floating out there in ideaspace somewhere. I don't know if we're there -- but ... maybe we are and I just need to try it.
I think it'll at least be better in Factorio because of how improved materials guarantee improved products, and most materials are produced at such massive scale that the general rpg problem of "grind for hours or just get lucky and get it in 30 seconds" won't really come into play.
The law of large numbers will really help it not feel so bad.
@@MiIIiIIion exactly, factorio works with such large scales that you really can take something like a 0.1% chance at face value and just plan for one in a thousand.
Well this is a terrifying development. I'm excited to see it succeed or fail.
But it will be interesting. :)
Great video, just found this channel, I 100% agree we need less loot-box quality names.
But your idea for integrating it with you mod's a genius idea I hope we can see others use as well.
I definitely agree with your perspective on this topic. The names really put me (and a lot of people) off from the idea at the beginning, despite the mechanics being promising.
I also think presenting the recycling loop they showed in the FFF was a miss-step.
I don't think I'll ever build a setup like that, except maybe for when desperately needing something high quality for a space platform - it makes much more sense to me to simply stick quality modules in your generic intermediate manufacturing hubs, and just siphoning off higher quality items from your normal builds (allowing the normal tier items to be used in science).
This way instead of higher quality items costing up to 50x the normal item cost, all you're losing is the opportunity cost of no prod modules.
you were the first person i thought of then the quality feature was announced. Hope it works to your expectations!
I think it will add a level of complexity that's not necessarily needed.
All we are going to do is create a factory 20 times larger to recycle all the lesser than "legendary" that the normal factory produces.
We will see.
If they design it such that there are things that lower quality items are better suited for than high quality ones then you would end up with a situation where quality control is a balancing act instead of a min/maxing problem, where you only produce to the quality you need.
You already lose resources from recycling, so if they just made it so that only a portion of the materials used need to be of the highest quality for best results (or really any combination of material quality) then prioritizing where different quality products go is still important in the super late game.
I think the challenge will be deciding when to make the jump from scarcely going for higher-tier items to deciding to go for all legendary items. If that still sounds problematic, I’d argue that Prod modules + speed beacons have already caused a similar homogenization of factory design for the current game version.
Hell, the fact that quality is added via a module means you’ll need to decide where to trade off quality for productivity bonuses or vice versa for intermediaries
This is awesome, I immediately thought about your devlog when I read this FFF! I'll have to give the alpha a try
Randomness of quality is my biggest concern with the update. Implementing quality based on input materials makes so much more sense, i'll exclusively play with those changes if you implement it :)
One thing I feel like a lot of people are missing is that in large quantities, such as any factorio build, randomness just becomes statistical. For example, if you flip a coin five times while trying to get a tails and get heads four times, then you'd have a 20% win rate which may seem unfair, but if you flip it a thousand times, then it's gonna be almost exactly 50/50 if you win or not. Same goes with quality, so you can really just look at a 90/10% chance to get an epic vs a legendary as getting one legendary after every nine epics
Amazing video and I agree so much in the possibilities it gives you and your mod. And I also agree with the naming, when it comes to quality of a "machined/assembled" product, you simply do not describe it with RPG nomenclature.. And lastly, as a person who is (for some reason) a very big metal/chemistry enthusiast, my brain went full happy chemicals when I saw the materials, I love realism in games like these :D
Holy cram! researched metalworking and my brain melted. This is going to be fun! 😳
Really Good Ideas. if it will come to this, i actually might start to like that system
About your last point there is a mod called stable fundations (or something of the like) that change properties of entities according to the tiles down each, maybe you could look at that for reference
Yiiiiiis,
What I'm imagining for the recycling back issue is that I could have a side factory that is dedicated to building good modules, and the lower tier unwanted modules can be sent back to the "regular" factory to get turned into science or whatever. That way there is no infinite recycling. But then it comes with problems like what if the main factory cannot consume that many iron gears or whatever. exciting considerations indeed
First video if yours I see, I was curious due to the title and never heard of your mod. Looks quite interesting! Currently doing an IR3 game, and from the looks of it your mod is a bit similar with the intermediates, but expands on it? Definitely going to keep an eye on it and possibly try it once I'm done with IR3.
I hope the modding framework allows for what you intend with the fixed/minimum quality. Sounds really cool as a concept to use higher tier materials to guarantee higher quality!
IR3 is on my list of mods to play, that's for sure. :) I've played a TEENY bit of the original IR, and it looks to have gotten cooler. :)
I am not sure if they mentioned it, but I hope the rng works in a way where if the odds are 1% then you will always get one of that rarity every 100 crafts.
Also quality chance should be 0 without the modules
it's already 0 without quality modules
@@alt1763 It is even after the research? Nice! I must have missed that.
Someone on the forums said it well enough for the namings and it was, Legendary Solar Panel, so what legendary stories are to be told about this solar panel.
It just doesn't make sense. The names were obviously picked out as placeholders though.. I hope..
woo-buh
thank you both
2:55 I like the naming!
as a mechanic for the vanilla game this does not seem that appealing however when put in the context of it being a feature of the space age expansions it would make sense as you start multiple times on a blank canvas that each time you have slightly better components to build up with
LEGENDARY USED UP URAINIUM FUEL CELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 I NEEED THAT SHIT
For iron and steel, one could easily tier them by purity and/or hardening. ie high purity hardened iron as max tier.
One could even add casting to that as an intermediate step before hardening.
I am no expert in metalurgy so other metals/alloys probably would need their own thing.
Imagine for bob's angels mods. Instead of just giving slightly more product for doing the really long production chains, it could give us higher quality products due to the more involved ore purifcation process.
Yes. Very much. I didn't want to put those thoughts in the video to apply pressure to anyone to make anything, but that's it right there.
I think quality will work well if its implemented in a way that makes it easy to upgrade or get legendary versions of items. If its meant for a way to compact factories and reduce lag, it shouldnt be a grind to get them
I respect your view! But, I don't agree. I don't think it should be a *grind* per se, I think it should be a *design challenge*. But, to be fair, grinds do show up often as elements of design challenges. Just my 2c.
It strikes me as a feature I'll only really take a proper look at once I've obtained all the science packs and are prepping to go into mega base mode. Working towards power armour and spidertron upgrades to speed up expansion builds seems like a no brainer to me, but before that I just need to get done researching everything
Quality as an idea but I'd like it more to be different advantages you get based on what components you use like some components give you energy efficency while others give you crafting speed. That would lead to more versatile constructs
And I hope they put more preusr eon the player regarding power efficency and space efficency. To break up the one optimal design problem a bit more
i think the recycler is a bad idea and just makes this a grindy loot box rng joke. there should be some stamping machine that can upgrade base parts to a refined part maybe using more power or pollution but guarantees a rare or epic version with a 3>1 ratio or so. where u can use legendary parts or "fine machined low tolerance" to build a well optimized nuclear reactor. where u trade production time/power for size so u need only 1 reactor for the same output as 9.
goal of balance shouldnt be a 1% chance drop but rather be "inefficient" for pollution power but at the end makes a high quality product. for things that arent industrialized like u only need 1 armor or 1 gun or 1 train
This is looking great!
Thank you!
i think the best system is like risk of rain 2 handles item rarity
itens that are ment 2b used much be the losest tier and higher tier material means you spend less per recipe with them
also be garantee to get a desired outcome, like lets say a machine have 3 upgrade slots, if i have a tier 5 machine and all upgrades be used for quality instead of speed,energy efficiency the recipe is a garanteed tier 5 item
one of my concerns is that if it's RNG based, you could end up with, say, 3 different tiers of each electric pole in your inventory, taking up 9 slots (12 if you include substations) while only having a handful of each
I share your concern
@@galdocstutorials a smart way they would get around this is they all stack in one pile. the stackwould have a little colour identifyer showing theres multiple qualities in that stack. once you hover over the stack you choose which quality you want either scrolling through them ect and then clicking on it as per normal. the only worry is it wouldnt work with hotbar.
3:21 I get this. To me, Factorio as a factory simulation has been missing part quality as a source of waste you must mitigate in your pipeline, but I'm not sure if this'll just lead to us building ad-hoc recyclers for any "quality" machine. It might be nice to actually have a tier that's below normal just called "waste" that is useless and has to be filtered, but I can also see how this can be annoying
2:19 Yes. I have been stalwart fan of the WoW item categorization for years, but this a great case where it makes no sense and the names should be changed, since we can keep the colors and basically have the same benefits.
I am Legend(ary used up uranium fuel cell) XD
hahaha. :)
The real life quality of materials is often influenced by the purity of their base components (in the case of metals, their ore) so ways of pretreating, cleaning and refining ore, could lead to higher quality final products. That would at least be my thoughts on a quality mechanic.
imo they named (and colored tho i think the colors can stay how they are, theres no easy way to tell if product a is better manufactured than product b simply by looking at their colors) the quality system like that because its something everyone is familiar with from many other games and easy to catch on. tho i do agree that for a game about making a factory they should be renamed to more apropriate terms
Personally I'd go with the Dwarf Fortress quality levels: Standard > Well-crafted > Superior > Exceptional > Masterwork. But maybe that's just my love of DF talking...
Masterwork Fish actually sounds like delicious sushi and I want one.
Get out of my head i was just think about something like this (not as detailed) XD
5:13
But uhm the thing is: how your idea interacts with quality modules? Does it increase max or no?
Of course we don't get to know how quality modules work for now inside code, but I would just keep that in mind (I think?).
I am not entirely sure. Will keep it in mind tho
2:18 Gonna have to say you are looking at the quality descriptors with the wrong perspective. "Scarcity" and "Amazingness" are both qualities. That is to say, they are a property of something. When it comes to the qualities an object has, the adjectives used to describe that quality can be used equally, generally speaking. So Wube is perfectly fine in using "Uncommon", "Rare", "Epic" and "Legendary" as adjectives to describe the production quality of an item.
Thought in another way, a "Legendary" item is, yes going to be super amazing, but it is also going to be super scarce. An item that is "Uncommon" is also going to be infrequent to come across, but it is also going to stand out, if for no other reason than being infrequent to come across. So both adjectives can very easily imply both qualities simultaneously.
On a side note, while it is true that some of the Wube founders are also fans of World of Warcraft, they didn't invent the color coded rarity/quality scheme. Some earlier Blizzard titles had such a scheme like Diablo 1 and 2. I am trying to think if others had something like that too. Magic the Gathering has used colors on the symbols of the cards the tell you which printing the card came from to denote rarity as well and that's been around since 1993. Then, finally, color has often long played a role in denoting people of importance and power. Purple was long considered the color of royalty and more going back millennia. In ancient Rome, it was reserved for the Senate and used in important buildings.
But if object Z gives a quality bonus to the finished product, wouldn't that make object X and Y obsolete?
Yeah, I really don't like how the devs decided to implement this feature. I hope they will release API for it to allow modders to ovehaul it.
Personally, instead of flat bonuses, I would like to have the ability to modify the properties of the material more freely. Like let's say you can add chrome and/or nickel to steel - you get stainless steel, and any building that uses it will get acid resistance bonus Also it could be required to build chemical labs.
Or add wolfram and you get high speed steel - and let's say drills with it get a mining speed bonus, armor gets extra defense, and ammunition - armor piercing.
And why should quality only be positive? It would be cool that if you just throw mined ore into the furnace - you will get shitty iron with a bunch of penalties. And to get better quality, you have to refine the ore.
Oh no. K2SE is hard enough, but with quality the amount of stuff I would have to filter would rise exponentially. What an actual logistic nightmare that would be.
The one thing that I'm slightly worried about is that the quality system is meant to only be available with the upcoming DLC, meaning that for players to use your mod they would need to buy the DLC first
Oh, no worries there; i aim to make it work both with and without the expansion. :)
The more I think about it the more it feels like Quality MUST be co-existing with something else. We'll see very soon. As for game design, the puzzles they give us are absolutely genius. Say logistics. We don't get loaders or better belts than blue, nor too fast inserters. Getting loaders makes inserters useless in many cases, simplifying that part of the puzzle that building a factory is. Legendary inserters will be 2.5 times faster though so we'll see how that evolves. I love belt weaving. Limited underground belt length makes you think about the problems instead of just ignore and go by everything. In K2 the underground belts have much longer segments and 2 more tiers of belt making it more viable in late game builds. It's intentional that legendary belts aren't 2.5 times faster, that's probably for logistics purposes or belts are simply so mass produced it's kinda wasteful and only useful for defenses since you have a health buff. I've tried adding mods for logistics, but it just doesn't feel good. Look at the complex balancer books. A little more unique logistic parts and that's gone. You don't really need balancers, but they're useful in cases like trains to ensure fast even unloading instead of one wagon being full while the rest are empty. Train stations will probably be the first go-to place for legendary inserters. Also imagine legendary fish, like will it heal 2.5x the health? 😂
The most obvious of puzzles is Uranium and I wish there's something to complicate it even further optionally. Maybe radiation damage from the enriched uranium or from a higher energy atom. Generally Factorio is a puzzling problem solving game and many forget that. Can't wait for the legendary fish!
It's certanly a very specific or not RNG stuff because if its RNG imagine what could just a simple green science block do. Spitting a ton of inserters with different rarity sorting legendary and epic while dumping common into crafting more science. Also this could ruin bases because there are some machines that can output more and clog critical areas or make bottlenecks.
I agree with your assessment of the mechanic as it is proposed, there's potential here but the current names are not very good for Factorio & the way the recycling proposal works is not great. Unless we can recycle plates back into ore of higher Quality (I doubt it), you can only improve the Quality on your inputs so much without recycle loops of some variety. I understand why it's like this, a vanilla-appropriate solution is hard to find & they are hard focused on not breaking their game's balance or feel.
Your solution for your own mod is a great way of approaching that problem in a modded environment though. Having stumbled my way into green science with your mod on Advanced so far, how you imagine the Quality mechanic is exactly what I thought was missing in the mod as well. The variety & player choice of the properties system is quite nice, consolidating production to 1 metal feels great honestly even if its wasteful... but a little extra bonus through Quality down the line could be an even more interesting tradeoff. This creates a lot of potential for player choice & feels more satisfying, alongside a bit more of that realism flavor. Balancing materials & processing to affect yields of high quality product, instead of just processing.
As for the names... why not skip the localized nouns all together? Your first suggested set of names solves it quite easily while keeping the same flavor as the current names, but these tiers could simply be numbered in some way too. Sure "Excellent Productivity Module 3" rolls off the tongue a bit better than "Quality 4 Productivity Module 3" but I am willing to bet more Factorio players would remember the latter (shortened to just "Q4"), or simply refer to them with their colors like we do for everything already.
I turned to localization only because it seemed like it would make sense if some item kind of resisted a one-size-fits-all naming scheme. Like, I'm not sure 'Excellent' Used-up Uranium Fuel Cell is great -- though you may be right in that it's good enough. :)
I think your use of diferent metals would work really well with the diferent "quality" of the items and add a ludicrous amount of progression and science research. And best of all, FIX the whole "destroy the part and remake it until it's good".
For example, in the early game you can only have the "normal" quality of items and assemblers since the ore and metals you have access have poor properties like:
-being relatively brittle (can't work with steel yet and crafting speed being slow)
-reactive with acids and oxigen (can't make use of some fluids)
-conductivity (for certain functions the energy efficiency is garbage)
and many others that my brain cannot brain.
In terms of progression, It could go for something similar to the Terraria "post hardmode", where you have to first get cobalt, with that cobalt you get mithryl, and with this one you get adamantium, and then you get going with your bosses. The same could be achieved to replace the "destroy the part to remake it until it's good", they make a small assembly like that machine by machine, as you gain better parts, uses the higher quality parts in order to make the final assembly machine that can finnaly build itself with less steps to pass the recipe from the low quality pieces to a higher quality pieces. Making you solve a small puzzle that rewards you with an assembler that allows you to access what would be the next tier of material quality, either by allowing a more efficient way to refine the original ore and allowing the use of straight up better materials. In the end with that better assembler, you could make the same result with what needed to be 5 diferent machines, and turn it into a 1 step machine with more varied material intake.
Essencially, a "normal" assembler could only work with "normal" materials (iron, copper...) , a "well-tuned" assembler could work with "normal" materials faster and "good" materials (bronze, steel...) with regular speed, and so on. And the progression is figuring out how to make the next assembler, or miner and pump that lets you use better stuff.
Roslyn Flats
"The idea that I make something and then immediately trash it to try and remake it better quality feels bad man"
*Screams in capitalism*
Honestly feel like this mechanic would feel kinda on-point for factorio. The amount of goods that companies either break down or just throw away because despite being perfectly usable, don't meet some arbitrary quality standard... oof.
I think they wanted dumb way to implement overhaul mod's production scaling. But instead of complicated production line and simple result we will have simple and annoying additive to every production line with complicated result. A bit too punishing for player and makes building a mall straight up impossible for this type of things.
0:45 woo-buh? wube is woo-buh? not woob? hmm ok.
Legendary Soy Food
Honestly I’m not really sold on the idea of manufacturing 100 plates and trashing 99 of them just to get better quality. I completely misses the usual flow of more basic recipe equals lesser efficiency. With addition of not RNG but new process or material adding Quality to the game will be much better.
i love it, people who hate it, cant just ignore it, and play as they used to, nothing will change it.
They just dont benefit from the extra productive and speed. :D
"just turn off a major feature of a product you paid money for and apparently cost a lot of dev time" isn't the banger of an argument you think it is
SKILL ISSUE
I am so bad at the game I love lol
As described on the page, quality intermediates make quality products, with a base quality (which has a chance of increasing into regular quality) of the intermediates' quality. In your mod you can make it so different resources have different Base Qualities in different products.
Also, why did it take 3 months to make a UA-cam video about your mod? (i mean you could have at least done weekly devlogs, LIKE FACTORIO ITSELF)
And, can you make it have it's own milestone preset?
one are videos and the other are mainly text with some pictures, remember they were developing a DLC for years. So basically your criticism can be used against WUBE.
@@Zer0_Decepti0n no, i was explaining about how quality would work in the mod. (although hidden if the expansion mod WASN'T DETECTED)
@@teamruddy611 I wasn't criticizing that part that was fine. I was talking about the second paragraph.
@@Zer0_Decepti0n I didn't leave that much space so even i don't know where the "second paragraph" is. I thought it was just 1 paragraph, LIKE THIS comment.