The Proclamation states: “We warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets. WE CALL UPON responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.” If we believe those words from the Proclamation to be true then we have come out in support of the destruction of the family as ordained by God and thereby the support of the onslaught of the calamities foretold by prophets. I recall a scripture that says you cannot serve God and mammon for ye will either hold to the one and despise the other, or your will hate the one and love the other, ye cannot serve two masters. Shouldn’t we uphold the Standard of Truth with faith that no unhallowed hand can stop the work even though persecutions may rage, mobs may combine , and armies may assemble, till it has sounded in every ear and the purposed of God are accomplished? I believe we are on far better ground to exhibit the simple faith in God held by Abraham Lincoln as expressed in his own words: “Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it”. As the Church continues to follow this “woke”, “good global citizen” path, I can see that many of our beloved hymns will need to be eliminated from the next hymnal. Phrases like “Do what is right let the consequence follow” and “Oh say what is truth” seem to be falling out of vogue. As Aaron Tippin said: “You’ve got to stand for something, or you’ll fall for anything”.
Thank you, thank you thank you for your extremely articulate writing on this. I was searching for a comment to express what I was feeling regarding the contradictions the leadership seems to be communicating here. You so eloquently laid it all out. Thank you so much. I echo everything you wrote.
I have to admit the more I have looked at this and pondered it, the church leadership is incorrect on this stance. One main reason for me is this. Why fall on this sword. They are saying the support is for religious rights. Well one massive problem. First amendment already gives that right. No where in the constitution does it give LGBTQ rights.( I’m not saying they should be persecuted. My own son is gay but I don’t believe they should be granted special rights for acting upon emotional feelings but that’s a different argument) If the government will trample our constitutional right what standing does this bill have? They can promise whatever they want but they won’t follow it that has already been case. We have lost more then culture in this country, we have lost morality. We know the scriptures tell us of the excuses given of why our Lord was crucified. We also know why most of the first apostles were violently killed. We as a early church knew first hand religious persecution. Jesus Christ did not come to cater to the world. He gave them the truth and the light and showed them a better way. He gave us the example as well. We follow his doctrine and if we suffer because of it or if we even die following it what greater honor is there? When I was a child President Benson was the Prophet and his words relay more to our time now then it did then. I am not saying I don’t believe in our church leadership. I am saying this is a civil matter not religious matter and they can make mistakes. They needed to hold to the pattern of never getting involved in politics. That should be left up to members.
I think LGBTQ etc are also better off in loving relationships. As Joseph Smith Jr said we believe that all mankind believe what they may and we claim the same privilege. Our church is proactive ( putting ourselves out there/getting noticed) In the field of religious freedom because it is necessary for us to have our freedom. Joshua Smith Jr had to stop polygamy to protect church leaders and the temple. We expect to be persecuted for not joing the 1 world religion.
I have felt very uneasy about this for days and have been pondering and praying. My main strength comes from a similar answer to prayer I received after the church was coming out heavily promoting the vaccines (which also sent up alarms for me, particularly, because my father in law was vaccine injured-almost died and is still paralyzed…), the answer was this: Heavenly Father still allows agency amongst the prophet and apostles, and they are allowed to use their agency in various ways and even make mistakes. I look back at the history of the church, and this is my only logical explanation for some of the confusing/bad words or actions of past leaders of the church. I’m not saying I don’t believe they are set apart to lead the church-and ideally are following the Savior’s close guidance-but I do not believe them to be infallible. I think we still need to pray about things and receive guidance for our own lives, and use our own common sense. For me, that means I will continue to stand up for traditional marriage in whatever avenues I can. It meant before, that I was testifying of the dangers of vaccines from my personal experience. It has also meant that, while the church does not speak up against abortion, I will always speak out loudly for innocent lives. And in the future, who knows what else may be said that conflicts with my strongly held beliefs. I believe the Book of Mormon is true, I love my Savior and I have faith in Him. I believe the Gospel is true, doctrinally, but culturally we have no leg to stand on if we go down this path…
@@melissapowell601 I do not want to agree you but it's bad when your non member friends have more righteous beliefs than the leaders of your church do.
@@franciegwin the church ought to be leading the world in true marriage, outspoken against abortion, against the genocide in china, etc. but they have been playing politics
Believe me mary I don't want to agree with me but allowing same sex marriages in the Temple is a bridge too far for me. Scriptures tell us same sex marriages are not of God. Let's face it the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is officially of the world.
I agree with much of what you said. However, the Church leadership has said numerous times in General Conference that abortion is an evil and should not be tolerated except under rare circumstances. The vaccine stance was something I struggled with myself and eventually came to the same conclusions you did. Regarding this stance on same-sex marriage, I don't think the Lord wants something like this to be enforced through laws. Heavenly Father wants His children to CHOOSE Him, not to simply follow commandments b/c it's against the law of the land. Laws restrict behavior but they don't change the heart. The Church will continue to uphold traditional marriage (in the temple, ideally) as the Lord's ideal state of families. This is a way to compromise with people who do not believe as we do and I think it's the right way to go. If the situation were reversed and the majority of people in this country wanted to ban Christian weddings or temple sealings, would that be right to do just because you have the majority behind you? Compulsion is not correct in any circumstance.
Kia ora to you. I've been a member of our Church for 5 years now. I'm gay, and the reason I was attracted to the restored Gospel was because it teaches that all of us are loved by our Father and the Savior. I grew up in faiths that constantly condemned me to eternal hell fire . It was so refreshing to learn that God doesn't hate me because I'm gay. He doesn't require me to 'pray the gay away'. He doesn't require me to be someone that I'm not. Yes he does require that I live chastity. And honor covenants. I know that this message is not at all popular with the world. I live by commandments that the world doesn't agree with. Or embrace. And that's their free agency to live their way. I dont see any point in opposing gay marriage for those who don't desire to live our way. Even marriage in the world for straight people has become all bent out of shape. E.g ....easy divorce, open marriages, people not sticking to their promises. I love the Gospel standard of marriage between men and women....WITH CHRIST IN THE CENTER. I can't see any other kinds of marriage as valid. I wish our church members would search out lgbtqia folk, teach them the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Queer folk are put off Christianity because Christians give the Impression we are anti gay. Well doctrinal speaking, we are NOT. Jesus commands us to love all people.
Hi Craig, I'm glad that your a member. Much respect and admiration for being faithful and true. You must been a very valiant special spirit on the pre existence. Be strong my friend and don't let people get you down in or out of the Church.
"In coming days you will not survive spiritually without the ability to recieve revelation." Translation: If you thought this was going to be easy for you, then you didn't understand what I meant. - President Nelson
we should expect that various things will be withdrawn or made less obvious as the TESTING is not of an institution whether nation church or family but of individuals
I remember quite a few years ago when the church was opposing the bill in California. Our stake president called us in and ask us to contribute 5000.00 dollars. Feel like that was just thrown back in my face.
No, it wasn't. Everything was different back then. Times have changed and our laws have changed. Back when the Church supported Prop 8 in California it was actively fighting against LGBT marriage. It was trying to stop the LGBT's forward momentum and because of the efforts of people like yourself, we actually won! The people won but a year later the government overturned the people's vote on that proposition. The government actually threw ____ in everyone's face when they did that! Evil reigned and that was the writing on the wall so now the Church has to recognize that LGBT marriage is inevitable. We can't stop it. Our prophet "sees around corners" and knows what is coming. The best we can hope for is getting the 'religious freedom' in the bill to protect our families and the temples for just a little bit longer. Everyone keeps saying that the Church came out in support of Gay marriage when that is not what they said at all.
I have felt alone in my stance for religious freedom, and overall liberty since I got home from my deployment at the beginning of the pandemic. I certainly don’t get my ideas of liberty and standing for truth from church leaders. I feel anxiously engaged, but again, I feel alone. I hoped the church would stand as a light to the world in their stance for freedom and righteousness but I have only heard the opposite with temple and church closures during COVID, the vaccine statement, and now this statement in support of gay marriage. I don’t believe that the Lord would back down for the sake of making peace with the world. He did the opposite while He walked the earth is my testimony. His church, should stand as a beacon of liberty and righteousness. However I don’t ask the church to conform to my beliefs. I wished they would have been brave because the future generations will have it that much harder standing for truth and right.
The Church's statement reminds me so much of Joshua - "“And Joshua said unto all the people [of Israel], … choose you this day whom ye will serve; … but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”The doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints related to marriage between a man and a woman is well known and will remain unchanged." in my mind is an application of the "we will serve the Lord," and "preserving the rights of our LGBTQ brothers and sisters" is along the lines of affirming others' choice to "choose you this day whom you will serve." While I agree that the law is proposed as an opportunity to prepare attacks on religious liberty, it is merely creating an opening which others will exploit, and not a direct attack. It is more important to prepare for those following attacks - for example, we should be preparing for a defense of tax exemptions under the establishment clause of the First Ammendment. If we are actively fighting against LGBTQetc legal rights, then we lose the argument that we really believe the First Amendment. At this time more than any other time in history, we need to choose who we will serve, and allow others to male their choice - and work much harder to demonstrte the joy that comes from choosing to serve the Lord. It is along the same lines as Joseph Smith's statement from 1843 "If it has been demonstrated that I have been willing to die for a "Mormon," I am bold to declare before Heaven that I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any denomination; for the same principle which would trample upon the rights of the Latter-day Saints would trample upon the rights of the Roman Catholics, or of any other denomination who may be unpopular and too weak to defend themselves. It is a love of liberty which inspires my soul - civil and religious liberty to the whole of the human race."
I'm becoming more and more convinced that Mitt has gone overboard and is slipping away. I hope any decision by the Church was not made because of any lobbying he did. Follow Mike Lee and Ted Cruz, they are more clear thinking, they know the law (Mitt's no lawyer) and they are constitutional experts. If anyone will be around to save the Constitution, it won't be Mitt Romney.
I agree. I was happier to hear Greg stop and wonder for a bit. If Mitt is giving bad advice especially in the Respect for Marriage Act and not protecting the church as he seems more into influence peddling and getting a more Liberal vote to assist him in the future, I’m even more disappointed in him. Sometimes the Brethren are counseled wrongly, I.E. the Mark Hoffman letters/documentation/manuscripts, all fabricated yet it came out in the end but church did purchase and I met the Brother at the Church History Library that found the forgeries. Mitt aka dishonest Pierre Delecto is not in harmony. Mike Lee is asking to protect freedom of religion/institutions and I feel the act is the way forward but lawsuits and status jeopardized without teeth protection.
Mike Lee and Ted Cruz are attorneys and the are also well schooled in incrementalism so often employed by the left. The statement made by the church seems a bit premature supporting a bill that could use an amendment.
Slipping away to what? A moderate Republican that could win the Gubernatorial Seat in a Liberal state, like Massachusetts? He’s never been a hard Right voice, he hasn’t changed at all.
Romney got a duel MBA-JD degree from Harvard in a 4 year program . He has NOT been a practicing Attorney. He also has NOT changed much . He came from a Republican “dynasty “ and is left of center compared to most Republicans. His focus is social programs and big spending PERIOD . I can only guess who he “influenced “ . I can easily live with legal protections for gay individuals. I have a harder time living with Romney having influence with church leaders . I don’t care what political party people support as long as they are honest about it .
It’s not the church changing it’s doctrine that I am concerned about, it’s the fact that any church member that has a business, will be forced by law to cater to same sex marriage requests. I have been watching what the Marxists pushing this agenda have done through the years. Anyone thinking they will allow a business to decline to serve them, is naive. Private businesses will be forced by law to cater to anyone, no matter what that business owners personal religious beliefs are! That is the concern that Mike Lee, and people like myself have with this whole thing.
@@douglasolsen6861 Yes I worded that a little wrong. I am concerned about that too. The leadership of the church doesn’t seem to be concerned about it though. From what I have heard, they will just take away a bishops ability to perform Marriage.
@@CwicShow I value protecting my family, which is why I believe we must fight the culture war. We are loosing our children as we are loosing the culture. One is the other. Just in the last 10 years, as the Alphabet Community gain more "rights," it's interesting how the attacks on the institution of the family and our children ramps up.
Without a firm testimony we will not be able to withstand the trials that are ahead. Remember your baptismal covenant and remember this is Christ's church. We need to seek him in all things and he will calm our troubled minds. I testify in the name of Jesus Christ. AMEN
You hit the mail on the head with this! The things the prophet has been begging us to do, become more and more prevalent. He told us we won’t survive spiritually without the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. He taught us the importance of receiving personal revelation. Those things helped me navigate during the pandemic these last 2.5 years. This is the same. If we want to overcome the world and find rest (interestingly Noah means rest), we need to be able to know what God needs us to know. It is crucial. I’m thankful I was able to test out my relationship with the Lord and gain a stronger testimony of personal revelation.
It isn’t right to say they haven’t changed doctrine on LGBTQ they have. By removing the label of “apostasy” from people in gay marriage they effectively condoned the practice. They also allow trans people to have callings. Those may seem small but the ramifications are massive.
Hey brother, I always value your thoughts and opinions. Wish you were my neighbor!! Sadly this was an unnecessary self inflicted wound by Salt lake. This is the gateway to the end of the organization we call the church. The attacks will only get worse as we try not to offend satin. I love the restored gospel and my testimony in unshakable. My heart breaks when I see the destruction we’re bringing on ourselves.
Read the Church’s Statement. The Doctrine is the same. Trust there is a reason and the Arm of God will soon be revealed. The world’s opinion and portrayal of this action is the wound. Did you listen to Conference? Everything about Conference choosing the Higher and Holier ways of the Savior… to love and choose Him more than the ways of the world…to overcome the world. That’s where our focus should be… this is a distraction and quite possibly a test or tool for sifting. Holdfast to the Iron Rod. The destruction comes when something beyond are comprehension creates doubt causes us to step of the path. Let this be a reason for you to pray harder, trust in the Lord more, keep your light burning bright. I see so many comments of discouragement and I am positive Satan is rejoicing over this thinking he may have a foot in the door. Proverbs 3:5-6
I've also wondered why Mormon continued to fight with the Nephites even though he knew they were increasingly wicked and that they weren't about to repent. Maybe he had a similar reason to the present.
I agree with your assessment and it provides the clearest perspective I've found on how to understand what's going on with the church and the world, but why couldn't the church just remain silent and neutral rather than lend support? Why can't they just be uninvolved and accept that we have lost the culture war and not enter the political arena anymore? The statement makes it appear that they are trying to please / appease the world in my opinion.
The best Constitutional scholar in Washington is the Senator from Utah. Mike Lee offered an amendment that would ensure the rights of religious people who don’t want to be coerced and stated: “I voted against the motion to proceed to the “Respect for Marriage Act” because the religious Liberty protection clauses were severely anemic and largely illusory. While I respect the efforts and emotions surrounding this issue, the bill does not simply codify Oberfegell as it’s proponents claim. And despite the proposed amendments from Senators Baldwin and Collins, the religious Liberty protections are WOEFULLY insufficient (emphasis mine). Religious Americans will be subject to potentially RUINOUS LITIGATION, while the tax-exempt status of certain charitable organizations, educational institutions, and non-profits will be threatened. My amendment would have shored up these vulnerabilities. It’s a shame it wasn’t included.” Why in the world would not the Church leaders consult with the Utah Senator who is the top constitutional legal mind in DC, instead of the progressive lawyers and bureaucrats who have worked this way into the Church office building? Yes- why aren’t we just preaching the gospel, gathering Israel, and redeeming the dead?
Personally I think that President Nelson is using to recreate the "Mormon Moment" we had at the beginning of President Hinkley's tenure as prophet when most people thought well of us. It evaporated with the prop. 8 ballot measure. Personally I don't want the "world" thinking well of us at this point. This statement makes some people think we're waffling on this issue. I don't think that President Nelson is any less of a prophet for this just as I don't think digging for buried treasure to solve the Church's financial situation made Joseph Smith any less of one either.
Seems like a fair amount apologetics on an Issue that should be very straightforward. Does it seem reasonable to have to do this much explaining about the Church’s action on such an issue? Would a Book of Mormon prophet be in such a gray area? We did a lot of work with Prop 8 in CA to the level of getting verbal threats from neighbors who didn’t like the “vitriol” of signs in our yard. What a change. Is the “long game” on this per the church lawyers the way to go? Or should the church be more declarative? Difficult stuff. I have a hard time thinking Captain Moroni would do this.
I think the church is just trying to make it thru the last days without taking to many hits. I think the brethren must feel or be inspired that it's no use to fight because the war is already lost, the prophesies of the BoM are being fulfilled. The people are too wicked to keep the promised land. This is my opinion. I don't like it, and I think as individuals we have to decide if we'll fight or "just board the Ark" and wait. What does being anxiously engaged in Good causes mean now?
Thank you for posting this video. These are tough topics to discuss but are very needed to keep us informed. One of the reason I love your channel is that you will tackle these type of discussions to gather and share additional insights that the church doesn't always address. This new info on the marriage act is definitely a head scratcher. My thoughts are thst the church seems to be scared and threatened by the LGBTQ movement. Thst they will eventually force the church to perform same sex marriage in our temple's. It seems they are trying to be nice and coddle the LGBTQ community to make sure they don't hurt their precious feelings. I agree, this comes across very hypocritical. Now, had they come out and said...we support the LGBTQ s right of CHOICE to enter into same set marriages would be different. But to me, it sounds like the church is supporting same sexmarriage outside of the church instead of the CHOICE to enter into that type of marriage. Does that make sense?
The Proclamation on the Family doesn't stand in isolation. It is a collection of doctrines in a statement of belief, including core doctrines on marriage and gender, that have always been there - in the scriptures, in teachings by modern prophets, and in the temple. If somebody's understanding of the doctrine of the family rests on one proclamation alone, they are on shakey ground.
My local stake is pushing The Giving Machine that's coming to Atlanta, Ga. I don't understand why especially for church members. It's a good thing for the World. I personally would rather help people in person, instead of inserting a credit card into a machine.
these machines are not a good idea because they could be owned by others and not owned by the church. They could and would be legally forced to sell identical machines to anyone who wants to buy them just like ATM machine businesses and candy machine businesses. I have studied this and that's my concern. Also, I believe that many of these machines are not actually owned by the church but are instead 'partnered' and this is going to come out.
How will this law effect being a non profit as we use our tithes and offerings to lift and support less fortunate to provide for their communities and stability? ?
I know the church is trying to build bridges here.. critics of the bill have said the rights ensured therein are not very strong. Im inclined to believe that. History has shown if we give an inch, a mile will be taken in return. I doubt any rights we try to enshrine for religion in tandem with recognizing same sex marriage will stand in the long run.
@@andrewwood6285 posting the 10th amendment below. Basically, there is NOTHING in the Constitution regarding marriage (or medicine/vaccines or education or abortion or health care) which means the federal government has NO authority or jurisdiction on any of those issues, those items are supposed to fall under the local state Tenth Amendment The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
I'm sure some members thought Wilford Woodruff was caving to the government when the Lord ended polygamy through him. But that was the Lord's will. If the internet were around in the Book of Mormon times, I'm sure many Nephites would have thought Ammon was selling out when he bowed before a murderous Lamanite king and vowed to be his servant. Some members probably don't like reading Mosiah 20:22, in which Gideon states, "And now let us pacify the king, and we fulfil the oath which we have made unto him; for it is better that we should be in bondage than that we should lose our lives; therefore, let us put a stop to the shedding of so much blood." The Lord has his ways. Our job is to understand them and align with them, however much humbling that may take or however nonsensical they may seem to our limited understanding.
Remember… trust in the Lord and may I add especially when we can’t understand. Prophets can see around corners. This law also has to do with the future of our religious freedom. It may be a protection for our future ability to be able to worship according to our beliefs. Pray to see through the eyes of God. Do you remember Corrie ten Boon being grateful for the fleas? She was grateful for the annoying fleas that hindsight saved her life. Also, think about for the new Strength of Youth pamphlet. The world believes that the Church has abandoned the strict moral code and that we gave into the pressures of the world, but those that have eyes to see… it is an opportunity for individual to discern for themselves the higher and holier laws of Choosing to follow Christ and He is your motivation, rather than a list of dos and don’t s. I also feel it is a test for all of us. What about Abraham’s sacrifice. The sifting is going to take place and our Prophet has prepared us by pleading for us to gain a testimony and grow and nurture that testimony for our survival. Bad mouthing leaders for what we don’t understand yet is a quick way to fall. I believe there is a reason that we cannot begin to understand. Think how the Prophet prepared us for Covid. Remember our goal is to become a Zion people…. Let’s have faith in Christ, trust in Him, and see the Hand of the Lord unfold. I often wonder what I originally thought was President Nelson’s tears at the end of Conference was a farewell. I now wonder if it is because he knows what lies ahead for us. He plead for us to choose God’s ways over man’s, to overcome the world. There is a statement of the stance of the Doctrine of the Church as being marriage between a man and a woman. The truth is there for us to see, but the adversary is going to get us with what we are reading into it. Have faith. Trust in the Lord. Stop questioning and add exclamation points. I feel based upon Sister Nelson’s comments at the Canada devotional or fireside, the church and leaders are under attack in ways we cannot fully understand.
Greg, I appreciate the continued discussion. These are crucial topics, but I'm afraid many comments I've read on this topic are heavy on the skeptical side, and a bit anemic on support of the brethren. These issues are not decided frivolously nor easily. Surely, there was much thought and prayer by President Nelson and his supportive circle of counselors and the Twelve on how to proceed with this massive issue. This can't be simplified or explained away as bad legal advice or a misguided strategy aimed at increasing our popularity with the world. There's much more to it than that. I love Sheri Dew's statement that "prophets see around corners." The question we must ask ourselves is this: do we believe that? Do we believe that President Nelson deems this an important topic to seek the guidance of the Lord? Would this action be taken based on the advice of church attorneys alone? Is it any coincidence that one of the more brilliant legal minds we've had in the church sits immediately to the right of our dear prophet? Or that we have attorneys among the ranks of the Twelve? It's time to exercise more faith! Faith that the Lord can do His own work. Faith that the brethren are aware of these issues keenly and intimately. Faith that we are not being lead astray, or that the Lord's church is somehow weakening our position down the road. I love Ted Cruz. I'm a huge fan. I love Mike Lee. I don't think his position is at odds with the brethren on this. If anything, they were commending him specifically for fighting to include important amendments to the legislation that will inevitably pass. At the end of the day, I do not sustain Ted Cruz or Mike Lee as prophets, seers, and revelators. I will not allow my conservative predilections to override my faith that the Lord is at the head of His church and guides our prophet and his associates in the senior councils. In all of my limited experience, I have never had or heard of a legitimate instance where the Holy Ghost told me or anyone I know that the prophet is wrong. The exercise of faith in seeking the Spirit is always about changing my view and broadening my perspective such that I lose whatever inclination I may have had to find fault or criticize the brethren on a particular issue. I believe that is why the Lord invites us to seek our own confirmation. Has the Lord ever conveyed through His Spirit that the Book of Mormon is NOT true? I would emphatically say Never! Why? Because a house divided against itself cannot stand. That does not mean that prophets are infallible. All of us can find historical examples where Joseph, Brigham, or others of the apostles where in error. However, when the brethren act unitedly, we can be confident that the will of the Lord is the utmost priority. This is not the first time we have been asked to pivot. It won't be the last. However, I don't believe the brethren are asking that we wave the white flag or stop advocating that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God. They simply outlined a path moving forward. Now my job as a disciple of Jesus Christ is to seek understanding through the Spirit how I can better align myself with the brethren, and not seek to justify my own personal views by assuming they must be mistaken on some level. This is the Lord's invitation to grow. Great commentary from you as always.
well spoken and those of us who are disgusted at the thought of same sex marriage will find our way through this unholy mess for "GOD will not be mocked ".
Thanks for the comment. Reading through the other comments on here is very unsettling. A lot of members here seem very eager to doubt the Brethren or reason that this is an act of the "corporate" side of the Church. Such thoughts are the seeds of apostasy.
I am somewhat laughing, because people thought Noah was nuts when he started building the ark. What may seem like nuts to us now might actually save our lives. Get on the ark!
@@wufflerdance9481 Did you read the Church’s statement? Do you remember Article of Faith 11 and 12? Did you look over the FSY. Noah did not join them in wrong and nor have our leaders and the Doctrine of the Gospel. Look closely with eyes to see and ears to hear. The world is portraying one way from a worldly point of view. Marriage stands between a woman and man and is ordained of God. We are to love all of God’s children and leave judgment to God. We continue to teach the Family Proclamation and we all our brothers and sisters to choose Christ or the ways of the world. I feel there’s so much more to this that we can’t even begin to understand. Is it possible that without religious freedom act we would be forced to accept and perform things contrary to our beliefs? Could in be a test? Quickly people jumped and made assumptions without asking for the understanding in the spiritual realm. Satan will do all he can to create doubt and misrepresent truth. Look past the headlines and see what the act is about. Noah was asked to build an ark when it wasn’t raining. The Church is supporting a Religious Freedom Act so that we may be free to choose and act upon our beliefs. I am trusting in the Lord.
@@RebeccaGroendyke oh Ive read it all.... and what happened "to dare to stand alone...dare to have a purpose dare to make it known" -pres monson even the announcement ia contraying to what pres nelson preached in passed years the first paragraph was fine...the rest was not. that is why lgbt people are sooooo excited and happy by it....anything that makes them happy should have us scared lgbt trans beleifs didnt used to be allowed to be embraced...now its in our church schools.... pulling our youth. the ysa ward in my area has more men then woman and apparently the main reason is due to how many woman went trans and inactive ive lost 1 in law to going trans and she didnt have those feelings at all even 4 years ago... and its law of chastity...a big deal
I agree. I also sense what you are not saying also. That is why I am so glad I went to the Temple recently and was sealed to my recently deceased wife. I was told something may be coming in the future that could be a real legal battle which we cannot see over the horizon, but the Church does see. If you know what mean.
Dirk... I too recently was sealed with my deceased husband. While it has been several years since he stepped back into Eternity, I was guilty of "one of these days...", then I began to feel an urgency to do this... I feel part of that urgency was to complete this in anticipation of more unknowns coming our way. There is an additional 'strength' and surety knowing that sweet ordinance has been offered to us both. It cannot be undone by any entity here. ...so now, my Joe and I have this soul armor for our realms of future battle!
I am satisfied that the bill does NOT establish adequate religious protections for churches, church-owned schools, hospitals and other entities as well as for individuals (think about what anti-LGBTQ-discrimination laws did to Jack Phillips of Masterpiece Cakeshop). That deficiency MUST be address as Senator Mike Lee suggests. As for the Church's statement regarding the bill, I see the Brethren as being between a rock and a hard place. If they take a stand against the bill (or cleanse BYU, Deseret News, KSL, etc.), countless Saints will leave the church and tithes will plummet (killing the Church's ability to do good). That apostacy is inevitable but, apparently, the time for the separation of the wheat and the tares is not yet a hand (Matthew 13:24-30). Your mention of D&C 58:26-29 is apt. I see those verses as telling the Saints to get informed and to get active in fighting for righteousness in the culture war. Sadly, I'm guessing that the portion of Saints who will contact their congresscritters on this or any other moral matter will be less than 1%. "We have met the enemy, and he is us." -- Walt Kelly in "Pogo"
Thanks so much for your program, I appreciate your insight. My husband & I met you at the Book of Mormon Evidence Conf in Oct in Salt Lake City & loved your talk!!! BTW how can we get more info about the Cardio product?
I am comfortable with the doctrine of the church as contained in the Proclamation on the Family, and know that it will not change. But, this kind of support for same-sex marriage and the Respect for Marriage Act will not work the way the church thinks it will. The LGBTQIA2S+ community will not stop until they are allowed in the temple to be sealed to whatever type of partner they want. The lack of protection from tax exempt status removal in the bill will probably come back to haunt the church in the future, as Mike Lee rightly points out. If Mitt Romney supports something, I am generally against it. I agree with you that there should be a "why" from the church; I don't think that is asking too much. We live in the last days, and these challenges will get worse and worse and people will leave the church over this, but it will not get better.
Article of faith comes to mind, that we let others do so we can do. As Emma and Joseph had so much discomfort in their lifetime, and so did Moroni and Adam, we are in good Company.
The gospel my not have changed, but the leaders certainly have. They are trying to play both sides. So it's OK to pass a law which forces me to go against my beliefs and religion, but it's not ok for the church? The leaders are only looking out for themselves and the church assets. These leaders are fulfilling prophecy without realizing that they are. When you support and uphold the rights of wicked people over the rights and beliefs (which are part of our constitution), of your members. You have a serious problem. This is why LDS church and its temples will be destroyed. For the Lord said, He will begin in His own house. The following is taken from the BOM..... "ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls?" "O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies-because of the praise of the world?"
Thank you. Moroni warns us in Mormon 8 that the threat to the church in the latter days will be INTERNAL. Jesus was betrayed by an apostle.....are we better than He?
Neither the church nor the temples will be destroyed. The church only supported the bill after protections were added for religious freedom. They wanted to protect the temples and the ordinances performed within. There may be a cleansing within the church, but we don't know how it would happen.
Obviously you don't know history. The Jews thought the same thing. Yet their temple was destroyed. The first two temples, Kirtland and Nauvoo were taken away. So to think that the Lord won't destroy these temples, is completely wrong. My advice, keep an eye on the Salt Lake Temple. That will be the first the Lord will destroy.
@@keith5459 I do know history, and I also know the gospel well enough to know the temples will not be destroyed. The Salt Lake Temple will stand through to the Millenium. All the Temples the church has built will be needed for the Millenium so the work of God can progress faster and in a time of peace.
The proclamation was to the world not just the church. Thus it will need to remove "To the World". Also the Family Proclamation came about in the same time frame as the "Defense of marriage act", congress was debating and later signed into law by Bill Clinton in 1996. The Proclamation to the Family came out a year earlier (1995) but is not unique to church doctrine. I think the church has opened a can of worms by going against their own doctrine of marriage between a man and a women and revealed "to the world." So much for "standing alone" in defense of God. It's all political and to protect the church finances. Money should never trump defending the laws of God! God bless the family unit.
I believe the Proclamation on the Family will be cannonized soon. Yes it was presented in 1995 almost 30 years ago, but now more than ever, we need to stand for truth. I see the cannonization of this proclamation as that crucial step.
It’s an official proclamation, so (to my mind, at least) that is canonized. What else can the Church do with it? All 15 prophets, seers, and revelators of that time signed it. The only thing left to do would be to attach it to the D&C, and that’s not going to happen. Official proclamations are as “scripture” as modern scripture gets. Right?
In football terms, the Church is playing bend-don't-break defense. It's playing eight back, allowing the opposition short runs and passes underneath the pass coverage. Someday, the Church and its members will have to make a goal-line stand.
@@CwicShow Is it obvious? I'm a fan of all of the good that BYU does, not just in sports (this football season has been a minor disappointment). There is so much good beyond the playing fields and courts that BYU students faculty, and staff do that needs to be celebrated.
I do recall a time when the church may have said something similar about losing the culture war...when slavery and racism was the norm of society only to allow the church to deny the priesthood to blacks and later regret it. Something similar will happen here with this strategy the church has. Rather than us guessing what's going on, this requires a full discourse from Nelson...is that not his job?
Ask what is our job? We came to be tested and proved, instead of being critical, pray for our leaders. When we don’t have all the information, that is when faith is required. Turn to the Savior, ask Him to help you.
@@RebeccaGroendyke intetesting we say let's turn to personal revelation when it's convenient however at other we say we should always look to the prophet for guidance. The hardcore lds individuals always let the prophets off the hool very easily. This is why i do believe in personal revelation. I do not believe we should rely solely on the prophet's guidance as we are too often taught. They are merely men trying their best and just as we have a hard time sometimes finding answers to our prayers so do they. I don't envy their position-i imagine it's a difficult one.
@@chf159 I hear what you are saying. The Prophet receives revelation for the Church as a whole. We receive personal revelation for our individual lives. I think one of the reasons we have been counseled to learn how we hear Him (the Savior) is because there be hard things asked of us, things that don’t make sense right now. Even the Savior in 3 Nephi, after speaking to the people, I perceive that ye are weak, that ye cannot understand all my words which I am commanded of the Father to speak unto you at this time. 3 Therefore, go ye unto your homes, and ponder upon the things which I have said, and ask of the Father, in my name, that ye may understand, and prepare your minds for the morrow, and I come unto you again. You can receive personal revelation over the things the Prophet speaks.
Please don’t take this as cynical as much as an observation but if we are not handbook robots and we sight 58 as a guide to make a healthy bend of the handbook you find yourself released a short period after your suggestion. I would be cautious about quoting the prophet Joseph Smith here in our current church culture. Sometimes it feels as if the handbook is canon and the scripture is rarely read suggestions among some of us.
@@CwicShow I also took that position I really felt my suggestion was benign. Others are dare I say “stiffnecked” when it came to the handbook. Personally I felt it was an excuse to do nothing and ignore the “I give unto you a commandment to regard not yourselves” D&C 84:43 and spend the weekend doing what they wanted to do instead of having a youth activity. But I never was good at the “politics” game. I guess the crux of it even the topic of the episode is agency. It’s like the best selling book, “Agency, and How to Enforce It!” I see in this issue the church attempting to strike balance for both sides to respect each others agency on this secular issue. You have done a very good job traversing these challenging topics. Well done.
Hi Greg. First I want to say thanks for all the time and effort you selflessly give to help us become more aware/informed. I'm sure it's under simplified, but I tend to view this in the text of rendering unto Ceaser's what is Ceaser's One thing I'm frustrated with and no correction being made is being called the "Mormon Church". I feel it's often done in a derogatory way I thought we are to stand up for the TRUE and correct name of our church "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". I appreciate all your insights
I suggest that's a misrepresentation of the issue. What we law states is not related to what we do or believe, unless it specifically requires some action - which is not happening here. A more accurate representation would be do we really believe in moral agency - the right of people to choose to believe - or not? Laws against sin are a two edge sword - they are blocks to agency. Are people not committing sin because they are following the law of the land, or because they are aligned with Christ. In this case, the statement in support of the bill reminds me more of Joshua's statement from Joshua 24 “And Joshua said unto all the people [of Israel], … choose you this day whom ye will serve; … but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord,” Look at the first part of the statement - it is essentially "we will serve the Lord" and the rest is a recognition that others can indeed choose whom they will follow.
Considering how strong previous prophets have preached against the doctrines of Sodom and Gomorrah, it make we wonder if we are in the time of Isaiah 29:10 and 56:10, when the watchmen are asleep at their posts.
You bring up so many different aspects to this. I love how you brought all of this up and then brought it together. I suppose for me, personally, after reading Isaiah, I'm going to rely on the Prophet to make some of the harder decisions for The Saviors Church. I feel like we will see many more "hard to understand" scenarios in the future and as they play out, with our faith intact, we'll see miracles in these events. God is never going to change... WE ARE. I believe this is a time in this world where the sifting is going to be getting much greater. I just do. I believe without a solid, strong and pure testimony, we will suffer within ourselves. I honestly believe our days are numbered and most of us who are sleeping won't awaken until it is possibly too late. We have everything we need to survive as true members of the Church. If we are not pure members and we're going through the motions each day, we will eventually get caught up in the smallest snares. I believe Jesus Christ runs his church. I believe our Prophet is preordained for this particular day. I believe we have the pure truth in our doctrine and when others want to go against it, God will preach His gospel to them in particular. I was comparing so many events with Noah, but then the other day my son brought up Enoch and compared that day and age to our time now. He said, "I was thinking this was more like a Captain Moroni or Helaman Era until I started seeing so much happen all at once in the world that has a noise that doesn't go quiet ever, trying to preach the gospel is more unpopular now than any time in my life yet it is still required, people are making a solid decision to be defiant and fall away from truth, so I feel like Enoch keeps coming to my mind". I agree, I think for a Millenial, he really is seeing things much more differently than anyone who is over 40. He really had some interesting points,I wish I had time and space to just give you his whole conversation. I think we should be asking our kids what they think about the current situation of this earth... it was inspiring and interesting to hear all the concerns he has and how he ended all he had to say with his testimony and faith. Thank you for going over this. I really love and enjoy this channel.
A comment by another LDS channel made an interesting observation. Look at the Articles of Faith #11 & 12 together; ... "let them worship how, where, or what they may".... and we also believe in " sustaining the law". To many of these individuals, that lifestyle is almost lived as though it their religion. We stand by their right to worship "how or what they may". I just wish that bill had stronger protection for religious liberty.
For a time, it was legal to shoot a Mormon on site in the state of Missouri. It's Ok to work towards changing laws for the better. This attitude some have that once a law is made we have to live with it is insane. That's not how our country works. The law gives us the power to work to change the law.
Some laws we Saints believe in and want enforced, like don’t steal. Other laws we believe in but don’t expect to be enforced, like don’t commit adultery. And some laws we give up on entirely because we don’t have a prayer of having them enforced, like marriage in God’s way. I suppose the Church is just being realistic.
I hope this doesn’t turn out like the salamander letters and leave a black eye on the church 😢, I think we are dealing with a carnal society and catering to the woke demands. Nerveless I still acknowledge our prophet as one who holds the priesthood keys.
I understand the issue and comments being made but I really think the Church should stand on principle and let the consequence follow. At a minimum I think the Church should have remained neutral. I see no reason why they would put out a statement in favor of this bill. It sends the wrong message.
The ark is built and it is time to get on. There is no reason to fight this culture war to try and turn things around. At some point Noah said that it is time to close the doors and move on with Gods work, and then the flooding came. I believe the church is getting to that point. The call to get on the ark is now regardless of where we are with culture wars.
I disagree. The ark is over and done with. God said he’d never do that again. These are the last days, where we stand in defense of what is right. Where the world will fear Zion. How can they fear Zion if it’s institutions are giving up on the fight? Naw Satan is happy with our “concessions”.
@@jacobhardwick8396 it’s a figure of speech, of course the world is going to be flooded again. It’s time to live your life in a Christ like way, defend what is right and not get caught up in the worldly culture ways. The world is what it is so it is time to get on the ark.
Where is this Arc you speak of? Where is this refuge? When our children are taught these evil ideologies in church sponsored schools? When abortion clinics are in most towns in ‘Zion’? Where is this safe place? The cultural war will not stop at some imaginary line. It’s coming for you whenever you are. If you don’t fight now when will you fight? When your grandchildren raise up and despise you will you say it is enough. Where is your line in the sand?
@@andrewwood6285 sorry misspelled word, “isn’t going to flood “. There is no literal ark, it’s a figure of speech like I said in an earlier post. What I mean is that a choice needs to be made to either follow Christ or not to follow Christ, get on the boat, or don’t get on the boat. Yes we should fight for all righteousness, but this world will not turn to righteousness until Christ comes, it’s in the scriptures.
@@erikcarpenter7860 your ‘Arc’ must have a cabin without a view of what is happening to your children. Stay on your ‘arc’ hide in your stateroom, don’t see the suicides of those around you, hold your breath and soon it will all be over. And this inaction will save you?
What do you think about the prop 8 Californians who were asked to advocate with time and money against same sex marriage ? My son and his wife said they felt like ( about prop 8) that if you supported same sex marriage you were against the church but now it’s ok to support it politically
Very difficult. These are the problems that Church runs into as they enter the culture war. Right or wrong, there are difficulties in advancing in that war and retreating. I think we should separate ourselves individually from the church when possible in the culture war.
@@CwicShow I agree with you. My son is active and says that this doesn’t effect his testimony , but that he is done listening to the church’s positions on political issues bc they change their minds. I can’t exactly blame him.
I gave a lot of $ and time to both Prop 8 and the previous measure (Prop 22 I think?) that the Church supported in California. That first proposition was overturned by the court, so Prop 8 was a constitutional amendment, supposedly prevent court from overturning. Obviously, that didn't work either. I never felt bad about supporting those propositions, even though they lost, because we did all we could do. It was a sort of Zion's Camp experience, especially for the younger people who were out knocking on doors, carrying signs, being cursed at, etc. Now the church's stand on the new bill (which has passed now) makes it more confusing for people who aren't paying attention. If you're going to follow the church position, you are saying, yes I support the bill which legalizes same sex marriage but I don't support same sex marriage because it was already legal but now there are religious liberty protections in the new law (supposedly). Except in reality, the protections aren't there. I don't know. I certainly need more divine guidance on this....
It is brave to say the doctrine will never change. The church has changed it’s fundamental doctrine in response to social shifts various times. In 50 years almost no one living in the developed world will think of sexuality the way the LDS church currently does. Not to say that a religion can’t dig in and hold to beliefs that aren’t reflected in the world around it. But the continued growth of the LDS church is a key thread in its dogma and it has shown over time that it chooses adjustment to its principles rather than marginalisation and reduction. It needs to keep growing to prove its narrative is true, and is currently struggling to find a way to do that.
Another straw man response. The church is headquartered in the developed world and led primarily by people in it or from it. So it will be marginalised in its own country and subject to restrictions placed on it there. Or change. Or it could pick up and move to one of those conservative countries. It has certainly done that before. And those ‘family centered’ regions are changing too. Globalism and the internet are accelerating that. And aside from all that, it does not want to hemorrhage membership in places where it has traditionally been strong. Western US, Latín America, etc. It will change as it always has, and as all religions have done and will always do.
This seems confusing and upsetting at first glance, but I am seeing it differently. I respect other’s opinions, but I do not believe the church is showing support for this act. “We are grateful for the continuing efforts of those who work to ensure the Respect for Marriage Act includes appropriate religious freedom protections”. That statement never says they support the Respect for Marriage Act, it says they support those that are ensuring religious freedom. The church can’t prevent this act from being passed! They are accepting the fact that it’s being passed, and they showing support for those ensuring religious freedom is not infringed upon. Stop the panic and trust our prophet!
I hope that if polygamy will be permitted in heavens, polyandry will be too and same-sex marriages. Because any of those types of marriages are about family.
Of course I don't know, but I imagine that a policy of politicization is polarizing and teaching the doctrine of Christ is unifying. What would Jesus do?
As always, I’m going to offer a slightly different take on this but, Greg, I think we will largely Agee here. My POV doesn’t come from what the bill is or isn’t but to the reason why the church puts its support behind it. And this POV has a lengthy history of context to support it. Back in the 80’s I was in a Saturday night session of stake conference where there was a general authority speaking. The issue of baptizing illegal immigrants came up and he was asked “if we are supposed to obey the laws of the land, then why are we baptizing those who aren’t willing to?”. His answer is the basis of many church decisions to date and in the future. “The mission of the church is to preach the gospel.” It was just that simple. And the church won’t allow anything to get in the way of that. It’s a principle, not a policy. And with the current support, I believe it’s good to reference the BSA situation that found the church separating itself from it. It took time until it could go no further. The church can’t separate itself from the government as it discovered during the legal disputes over polygamy that created the Edmonds-Tucker Act and the failed Supreme Court appeal which said “you can believe anything you want but you can’t DO anything you want”. It’s in that spirit that the church is going to bide it’s time with this support while holding out on adopting the practices of the LGBTQ population for as long as possible. Because of the warning bells sounded by Lee and Cruz, we should understand that the church is open to attacks by the LGBTQ community…and the church will lose. This, (barring any other major societal shift like nuclear war, another pandemic, etc) may well result in the closing of temples again. If you look closely at how the church has always operated since polygamy in modern times, I think you’ll see how this is a sensible understanding combined with another where we need to understand that the church has never, and should never, exist in a bubble. As always, thanks for inspiring great conversation and interacting with me every now and then. 😁
I never forget who is in charge here, that being the Lord Jesus Christ. His 'will' will be done and our responsibility is to follow. I don't think supporting or not supporting a bill changes anything. Psalm 46:10 "Be still and know that I am God".
I listened to Spencer W Kimball's opening talk from the Oct 77 general conference. If there is any message for our day, that fits the bill. In the same light, I believe Elder Oaks is proactively addressing what is coming soon. Very similar to the Proclamation of the family when it was given. Thank God for prophets, seers and revelators! Love the channel, thanks for all you do.
Hi Greg. Great show, as always. Not sure if you'll see this, but I have some thoughts about your last point about the church's statement and paragraph 9 of the family proclamation: "But what if those two documents aren’t at odds at all? What if the best way to “preserve and maintain” traditional marriage in our current cultural climate is also to preserve LGBTQ rights? In other words, what if the church isn’t capitulating or retreating from the marriage issue, but making a strategic retreat in anticipation of a new front opening up in the culture wars-a battle which will make strange bedfellows of same-sex marriage proponents and the defenders of traditional marriage? ... Which brings us to the next major front in the culture wars, which I believe is going to be between those who view marriage and family as a social good, and those who view them as “systems of oppression” and want to abolish the family altogether. ... If this is the next big front in the culture wars, then conservatives might play right into the hand of the enemy by continuing to push a losing cultural battle for the traditional definition of marriage. After all, what better way to “get the government out of the marriage business” than to point out that we can’t even agree on the definition of marriage in the first place? And once the state becomes agnostic to marriage, we’re well on the slippery slope to a society that views the family itself as obsolete and unnecessary." www.onelowerlight.com/writing/whats-really-behind-the-mormon-churchs-stance-on-the-respect-for-marriage-act/
Considering the divisive nature of this statement I'd say it's having the intended effects that it was calculated to. This is more sifting and testing. If members can't or won't seek the spirit for their comfort and guidance when these "controversies" arise (and they will continue to until the coming of our Lord) then holding onto the rod of iron is going to be that much more difficult. Christ is at the head of His church. I wouldn't be surprised if the leaders are nervous about this amendment's implications but have nothing to go on but the assurance of the Holy Ghost. Hang on everyone! The ride is just getting bumpy!
Most Western countries require all marriages to be performed by civil authority. In countries that require civil authority for marriage, temple sealing is a religious rite, not a legal marriage. The Church could require this everywhere, including in the U.S. and Canada. It would eliminate the concern that the government could try to force the Church to perform same-sex marriages because any marriage performed by a Church official, in or out of the temple, would be solely the exercise of religion, guaranteed under the First Amendment.
Do you think there will be a significant fracture within the Church between those who prioritize being mainstream/accepted versus those who prioritize purer, more peculiar aspects of our faith?
...when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place... then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be... THEY might win this battle, but they will not win the war.
I was in the military a few years ago when President Clinton brokered a deal with the ‘Don’t ask don’t tell’ policy. That was a great compromise… for a while. This Senate Bill looks like a great compromise also.
The main thing I see is this: “And now, verily I say unto you, and this is wisdom, make unto yourselves FRIENDS WITH THE MAMMON OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, and they will not destroy you. Leave judgement alone with me, for it is mine and I will repay.” (D&C 82:22) This in the context of building up funds for the establishment of Zion despite persecution. (Side note: in the institute manual for that section there’s a long quote from GBH on the importance of church-owned business in serving and providing relief.) It’s not time to pull the pin yet. Also, for those who are concerned about the woke bureaucracy in church headquarters (my hand raised), I have a feeling that a not-yet-fulfilled prophecy will help calm some ruffled feathers: the enigmatic parable of the nobleman and the olive trees. D&C 101:43-62. Those slothful servants have a lot they’ll be held accountable for. Side eye on you, church office building and PR department.
In these discussions, I think it's becoming increasingly necessary to delineate between the church as the corporation/bureaucracy, and the Church as the vehicle of the Gospel. While there is certainly crossover and overlap, more and more there are public statements that are, at best, only tangential to what we used to think was "the church" as the vehicle for the gospel. The bureaucracy is becoming more and more visible, and appears to be a wee bit "woke" in nature.
You’re right. And BYU is in the lead there. As a university, they are overly anxious to be accepted by the world as legitimate and scholarly. But as a church, we are overly anxious to be accepted by the world as normal and mainstream Christian.
I'd say 1 church full of different people and different ideologies. The woke and the awake are like water and vinegar...we won't mix. The woke outright deny natural law and, ultimately, nature's God. Woke ideology is satanic doctrine disguised as charity and love and tolerance. Greg has alluded to this in other videos with activism
Nothing is temporal to the Lord. The Church does not comprise a "corporation" and a "church." It's all the Church. Anyone who is bothered by that is going to have a hard time adjusting during the Millennium.
“We are grateful for the continuing efforts of those who work to ensure the Respect for Marriage Act includes appropriate religious freedom protections while respecting the law and preserving the rights of our LGBTQ brothers and sisters. We believe this approach is the way forward,” said the Mormon church. “As we work together to preserve the principles and practices of religious freedom together with the rights of LGBTQ individuals, much can be accomplished to heal relationships and foster greater understanding." I disagree that the Church's stance on the Respect Marriage act is in conflict with the last paragraph of the Family Proclamation. The Church does not say it supports the bill. It supports the fact that people (Senator Lee) are working to include religious freedom in the bill. THAT is the way forward, to include religious freedom so that we can still try to protect our own families. Also, times have changed and our laws have changed. Back when the Church supported Prop 8 in California it was actively fighting against LGBT marriage. It was trying to stop the LGBT's forward momentum and we actually won! The people won but a year later the government overturned the people's vote on that proposition. Evil reigned and that was the writing on the wall so now the Church has to recognize that LGBT marriage is inevitable. We can't stop it. Our prophet "sees around corners" and knows what is coming. The best we can hope for is getting the 'religious freedom' in the bill to protect our families and the temples for just a little bit longer. I wish everyone would stop saying the Church supports same-sex marriage. Acknowledging that it exists as law or sustaining it does not mean they 'support' it. Acknowledging that we love our LGBT neighbors does not mean we agree with their beliefs. And yes, as individuals like Senator Lee, we are still supposed to do what we can to slow down the momentum of evil as much as we can.
The Church is not run by perfect people. And as they get older their wisedom and experience seems to give way to age and decline, caution and fear. The influence from the great and spacious building is beginnng to show. Faith is beginning to be overtaken by fear. This is truly, the beginning of the end.
Sorry, but I couldn't disagree with you more on the point that the church is in favor of the bill. But that's okay, I still respect and appreciate your opinion.
I cannot help thinking there's a lot more going on here than we know. Really appreciate your discussion, Greg, and encouragement to dissect and be aware of where we are. Seeing the uncomfortable. Fighting to stay aware and psychologically responsible for our individual choices, including why we stand where we stand. We will be increasingly pressed for why we believe what we believe. It comes down to individual conviction about doctrines, seeking God's overriding purposes, in spite of seeming contradictions. Despite discomfort. So much need to seek discernment through His Spirit. "We need a buoyant ark" is right!!!
I think we're going to make some strange bedfellows too. If the next major front in the culture wars is against those who see the family itself as a "system of oppression" that needs to be deconstructed, then perhaps the best way to "maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society" is to make an alliance with same-sex marriage proponents who also want to preserve the institution of marriage. I suspect that's what the brethren are doing: making a strategic retreat in the culture wars in anticipation of this next big battle.
In the most innocent sense, I think we should all just stay in our lanes and do our best to promote cooperation. In a more cynical sense, this is a religious cold war and the enemy is exploiting our diffident attitude as a Church to gaslight and demoralize.
I still feel like this is a slippery slope. Thanks for your podcasts.
Sobering information. Thanks for providing more light on the subject.
I don't trust Mitt Romney!
That's #MurmuringMitt !
He's a liar and an IMPOSTER.
The Proclamation states: “We warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets. WE CALL UPON responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.”
If we believe those words from the Proclamation to be true then we have come out in support of the destruction of the family as ordained by God and thereby the support of the onslaught of the calamities foretold by prophets. I recall a scripture that says you cannot serve God and mammon for ye will either hold to the one and despise the other, or your will hate the one and love the other, ye cannot serve two masters. Shouldn’t we uphold the Standard of Truth with faith that no unhallowed hand can stop the work even though persecutions may rage, mobs may combine , and armies may assemble, till it has sounded in every ear and the purposed of God are accomplished?
I believe we are on far better ground to exhibit the simple faith in God held by Abraham Lincoln as expressed in his own words: “Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it”.
As the Church continues to follow this “woke”, “good global citizen” path, I can see that many of our beloved hymns will need to be eliminated from the next hymnal. Phrases like “Do what is right let the consequence follow” and “Oh say what is truth” seem to be falling out of vogue. As Aaron Tippin said: “You’ve got to stand for something, or you’ll fall for anything”.
Thank you, thank you thank you for your extremely articulate writing on this. I was searching for a comment to express what I was feeling regarding the contradictions the leadership seems to be communicating here. You so eloquently laid it all out. Thank you so much. I echo everything you wrote.
The sooner we get Romney out of office, the better!
I have to admit the more I have looked at this and pondered it, the church leadership is incorrect on this stance. One main reason for me is this. Why fall on this sword. They are saying the support is for religious rights. Well one massive problem. First amendment already gives that right. No where in the constitution does it give LGBTQ rights.( I’m not saying they should be persecuted. My own son is gay but I don’t believe they should be granted special rights for acting upon emotional feelings but that’s a different argument) If the government will trample our constitutional right what standing does this bill have? They can promise whatever they want but they won’t follow it that has already been case. We have lost more then culture in this country, we have lost morality. We know the scriptures tell us of the excuses given of why our Lord was crucified. We also know why most of the first apostles were violently killed. We as a early church knew first hand religious persecution. Jesus Christ did not come to cater to the world. He gave them the truth and the light and showed them a better way. He gave us the example as well. We follow his doctrine and if we suffer because of it or if we even die following it what greater honor is there? When I was a child President Benson was the Prophet and his words relay more to our time now then it did then. I am not saying I don’t believe in our church leadership. I am saying this is a civil matter not religious matter and they can make mistakes. They needed to hold to the pattern of never getting involved in politics. That should be left up to members.
Never be afraid to stand up for Marriage between a Man and a Woman, it's that simple.
Amen.
I think LGBTQ etc are also better off in loving relationships. As Joseph Smith Jr said we believe that all mankind believe what they may and we claim the same privilege. Our church is proactive ( putting ourselves out there/getting noticed) In the field of religious freedom because it is necessary for us to have our freedom. Joshua Smith Jr had to stop polygamy to protect church leaders and the temple. We expect to be persecuted for not joing the 1 world religion.
@@janice2992 Who is Joshua Smith?
Every time that the Church has headed down this road , trying to "fit in with the culture", it has NEVER gone well.
I have felt very uneasy about this for days and have been pondering and praying. My main strength comes from a similar answer to prayer I received after the church was coming out heavily promoting the vaccines (which also sent up alarms for me, particularly, because my father in law was vaccine injured-almost died and is still paralyzed…), the answer was this: Heavenly Father still allows agency amongst the prophet and apostles, and they are allowed to use their agency in various ways and even make mistakes. I look back at the history of the church, and this is my only logical explanation for some of the confusing/bad words or actions of past leaders of the church. I’m not saying I don’t believe they are set apart to lead the church-and ideally are following the Savior’s close guidance-but I do not believe them to be infallible. I think we still need to pray about things and receive guidance for our own lives, and use our own common sense. For me, that means I will continue to stand up for traditional marriage in whatever avenues I can. It meant before, that I was testifying of the dangers of vaccines from my personal experience. It has also meant that, while the church does not speak up against abortion, I will always speak out loudly for innocent lives. And in the future, who knows what else may be said that conflicts with my strongly held beliefs. I believe the Book of Mormon is true, I love my Savior and I have faith in Him. I believe the Gospel is true, doctrinally, but culturally we have no leg to stand on if we go down this path…
Church has always expressed be in the world and not of the world. This church I believed in has become of the world and my heart is broken
@@melissapowell601 I do not want to agree you but it's bad when your non member friends have more righteous beliefs than the leaders of your church do.
@@franciegwin the church ought to be leading the world in true marriage, outspoken against abortion, against the genocide in china, etc. but they have been playing politics
Believe me mary I don't want to agree with me but allowing same sex marriages in the Temple is a bridge too far for me. Scriptures tell us same sex marriages are not of God. Let's face it the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is officially of the world.
I agree with much of what you said. However, the Church leadership has said numerous times in General Conference that abortion is an evil and should not be tolerated except under rare circumstances. The vaccine stance was something I struggled with myself and eventually came to the same conclusions you did. Regarding this stance on same-sex marriage, I don't think the Lord wants something like this to be enforced through laws. Heavenly Father wants His children to CHOOSE Him, not to simply follow commandments b/c it's against the law of the land. Laws restrict behavior but they don't change the heart. The Church will continue to uphold traditional marriage (in the temple, ideally) as the Lord's ideal state of families. This is a way to compromise with people who do not believe as we do and I think it's the right way to go. If the situation were reversed and the majority of people in this country wanted to ban Christian weddings or temple sealings, would that be right to do just because you have the majority behind you? Compulsion is not correct in any circumstance.
Kia ora to you.
I've been a member of our Church for 5 years now.
I'm gay, and the reason I was attracted to the restored Gospel was because it teaches that all of us are loved by our Father and the Savior.
I grew up in faiths that constantly condemned me to eternal hell fire .
It was so refreshing to learn that God doesn't hate me because I'm gay. He doesn't require me to 'pray the gay away'. He doesn't require me to be someone that I'm not.
Yes he does require that I live chastity. And honor covenants.
I know that this message is not at all popular with the world.
I live by commandments that the world doesn't agree with. Or embrace. And that's their free agency to live their way.
I dont see any point in opposing gay marriage for those who don't desire to live our way. Even marriage in the world for straight people has become all bent out of shape. E.g ....easy divorce, open marriages, people not sticking to their promises.
I love the Gospel standard of marriage between men and women....WITH CHRIST IN THE CENTER. I can't see any other kinds of marriage as valid.
I wish our church members would search out lgbtqia folk, teach them the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Queer folk are put off Christianity because Christians give the Impression we are anti gay. Well doctrinal speaking, we are NOT.
Jesus commands us to love all people.
Kia ora Craig. You’re a great example on this! I always appreciate your words and your testimony!
Hi Craig, I'm glad that your a member. Much respect and admiration for being faithful and true. You must been a very valiant special spirit on the pre existence.
Be strong my friend and don't let people get you down in or out of the Church.
Well said! Wonderful testimony and loyalty to the Lord!
One only has took look in the near past to see that yes, our Temple ordinances have been under attack. Our memories are longer than his.
"In coming days you will not survive spiritually without the ability to recieve revelation."
Translation: If you thought this was going to be easy for you, then you didn't understand what I meant.
- President Nelson
translation what I say is not always what I mean
@@benzun9600 no. Do not take pot shots at the prophet on my comment. It's much more likely that we have a limited understanding. Humility is key.
we should expect that various things
will be withdrawn or made less obvious
as the TESTING is not of an institution
whether nation church or family
but of individuals
I remember quite a few years ago when the church was opposing the bill in California. Our stake president called us in and ask us to contribute 5000.00 dollars. Feel like that was just thrown back in my face.
No, it wasn't. Everything was different back then. Times have changed and our laws have changed. Back when the Church supported Prop 8 in California it was actively fighting against LGBT marriage. It was trying to stop the LGBT's forward momentum and because of the efforts of people like yourself, we actually won! The people won but a year later the government overturned the people's vote on that proposition. The government actually threw ____ in everyone's face when they did that! Evil reigned and that was the writing on the wall so now the Church has to recognize that LGBT marriage is inevitable. We can't stop it. Our prophet "sees around corners" and knows what is coming. The best we can hope for is getting the 'religious freedom' in the bill to protect our families and the temples for just a little bit longer.
Everyone keeps saying that the Church came out in support of Gay marriage when that is not what they said at all.
yeah .....its sad:(
yeah and they say the church is political neutral... and they don't want the members to be activists. it is amazing
I have felt alone in my stance for religious freedom, and overall liberty since I got home from my deployment at the beginning of the pandemic.
I certainly don’t get my ideas of liberty and standing for truth from church leaders. I feel anxiously engaged, but again, I feel alone. I hoped the church would stand as a light to the world in their stance for freedom and righteousness but I have only heard the opposite with temple and church closures during COVID, the vaccine statement, and now this statement in support of gay marriage.
I don’t believe that the Lord would back down for the sake of making peace with the world. He did the opposite while He walked the earth is my testimony. His church, should stand as a beacon of liberty and righteousness.
However I don’t ask the church to conform to my beliefs. I wished they would have been brave because the future generations will have it that much harder standing for truth and right.
The Church's statement reminds me so much of Joshua - "“And Joshua said unto all the people [of Israel], … choose you this day whom ye will serve; … but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”The doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints related to marriage between a man and a woman is well known and will remain unchanged." in my mind is an application of the "we will serve the Lord," and "preserving the rights of our LGBTQ brothers and sisters" is along the lines of affirming others' choice to "choose you this day whom you will serve."
While I agree that the law is proposed as an opportunity to prepare attacks on religious liberty, it is merely creating an opening which others will exploit, and not a direct attack. It is more important to prepare for those following attacks - for example, we should be preparing for a defense of tax exemptions under the establishment clause of the First Ammendment. If we are actively fighting against LGBTQetc legal rights, then we lose the argument that we really believe the First Amendment. At this time more than any other time in history, we need to choose who we will serve, and allow others to male their choice - and work much harder to demonstrte the joy that comes from choosing to serve the Lord.
It is along the same lines as Joseph Smith's statement from 1843 "If it has been demonstrated that I have been willing to die for a "Mormon," I am bold to declare before Heaven that I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any denomination; for the same principle which would trample upon the rights of the Latter-day Saints would trample upon the rights of the Roman Catholics, or of any other denomination who may be unpopular and too weak to defend themselves. It is a love of liberty which inspires my soul - civil and religious liberty to the whole of the human race."
I'm becoming more and more convinced that Mitt has gone overboard and is slipping away. I hope any decision by the Church was not made because of any lobbying he did. Follow Mike Lee and Ted Cruz, they are more clear thinking, they know the law (Mitt's no lawyer) and they are constitutional experts. If anyone will be around to save the Constitution, it won't be Mitt Romney.
I agree. I was happier to hear Greg stop and wonder for a bit. If Mitt is giving bad advice especially in the Respect for Marriage Act and not protecting the church as he seems more into influence peddling and getting a more Liberal vote to assist him in the future, I’m even more disappointed in him. Sometimes the Brethren are counseled wrongly, I.E. the Mark Hoffman letters/documentation/manuscripts, all fabricated yet it came out in the end but church did purchase and I met the Brother at the Church History Library that found the forgeries.
Mitt aka dishonest Pierre Delecto is not in harmony.
Mike Lee is asking to protect freedom of religion/institutions and I feel the act is the way forward but lawsuits and status jeopardized without teeth protection.
Mike Lee and Ted Cruz are attorneys and the are also well schooled in incrementalism so often employed by the left. The statement made by the church seems a bit premature supporting a bill that could use an amendment.
Mitt is part of Gadinaton and has been for many, many years.
Sadly, Mitt IS a lawyer. We don’t need more lawyers in politics; we need fewer lawyers.
Slipping away to what? A moderate Republican that could win the Gubernatorial Seat in a Liberal state, like Massachusetts? He’s never been a hard Right voice, he hasn’t changed at all.
Romney got a duel MBA-JD degree from Harvard in a 4 year program . He has NOT been a practicing Attorney. He also has NOT changed much . He came from a Republican “dynasty “ and is left of center compared to most Republicans. His focus is social programs and big spending PERIOD . I can only guess who he “influenced “ . I can easily live with legal protections for gay individuals. I have a harder time living with Romney having influence with church leaders . I don’t care what political party people support as long as they are honest about it .
It’s not the church changing it’s doctrine that I am concerned about, it’s the fact that any church member that has a business, will be forced by law to cater to same sex marriage requests. I have been watching what the Marxists pushing this agenda have done through the years. Anyone thinking they will allow a business to decline to serve them, is naive. Private businesses will be forced by law to cater to anyone, no matter what that business owners personal religious beliefs are! That is the concern that Mike Lee, and people like myself have with this whole thing.
The wedding cake shop that refused to decorate a cake for a gay wedding eventually won their choice not to serve them
Bishops providing a marriage for…. ?
@@douglasolsen6861
Yes I worded that a little wrong. I am concerned about that too. The leadership of the church doesn’t seem to be concerned about it though. From what I have heard, they will just take away a bishops ability to perform Marriage.
@@janice2992
Yes they did, but the attorney that did this the first time, sued them again.
Great insight and discussion. I believe this will soon come to a head and the church will need to stand to preserve the Doctrine.
This, like the Utah law, protects only the religious institutions but throws private religious freedom under the bus.
The key is focus. Where does it lie? What do you value more, the world or Zion and you family?
@@CwicShow without personal religious rights protection, there is no real religious freedom.
There is the Mike Lee ammendment that hopefully will pass to protect individual rights.
@@CwicShow I value protecting my family, which is why I believe we must fight the culture war. We are loosing our children as we are loosing the culture. One is the other. Just in the last 10 years, as the Alphabet Community gain more "rights," it's interesting how the attacks on the institution of the family and our children ramps up.
@@CwicShow cant really live my religion if im forced to support fraudulent marriage as a wedding entertainer
It just seems to me that one must go through all sorts of mental contortions to agree with this decision to supporting this.
Without a firm testimony we will not be able to withstand the trials that are ahead. Remember your baptismal covenant and remember this is Christ's church. We need to seek him in all things and he will calm our troubled minds. I testify in the name of Jesus Christ. AMEN
Thank you for bearing witness. You remind us of the simple basic truths.
You hit the mail on the head with this! The things the prophet has been begging us to do, become more and more prevalent. He told us we won’t survive spiritually without the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. He taught us the importance of receiving personal revelation. Those things helped me navigate during the pandemic these last 2.5 years. This is the same. If we want to overcome the world and find rest (interestingly Noah means rest), we need to be able to know what God needs us to know. It is crucial. I’m thankful I was able to test out my relationship with the Lord and gain a stronger testimony of personal revelation.
The church more and more acts like a woke corporation and less and less like the actually church of god
It isn’t right to say they haven’t changed doctrine on LGBTQ they have. By removing the label of “apostasy” from people in gay marriage they effectively condoned the practice. They also allow trans people to have callings. Those may seem small but the ramifications are massive.
I said they haven't changed doctrine, nor will they, on same-sex marriage.
Maybe they have turned the other cheek so to speak. Don’t ask don’t tell. I’m confused.
Hey brother, I always value your thoughts and opinions. Wish you were my neighbor!! Sadly this was an unnecessary self inflicted wound by Salt lake. This is the gateway to the end of the organization we call the church. The attacks will only get worse as we try not to offend satin. I love the restored gospel and my testimony in unshakable. My heart breaks when I see the destruction we’re bringing on ourselves.
Read the Church’s Statement. The Doctrine is the same. Trust there is a reason and the Arm of God will soon be revealed. The world’s opinion and portrayal of this action is the wound. Did you listen to Conference? Everything about Conference choosing the Higher and Holier ways of the Savior… to love and choose Him more than the ways of the world…to overcome the world. That’s where our focus should be… this is a distraction and quite possibly a test or tool for sifting. Holdfast to the Iron Rod. The destruction comes when something beyond are comprehension creates doubt causes us to step of the path. Let this be a reason for you to pray harder, trust in the Lord more, keep your light burning bright. I see so many comments of discouragement and I am positive Satan is rejoicing over this thinking he may have a foot in the door. Proverbs 3:5-6
I've also wondered why Mormon continued to fight with the Nephites even though he knew they were increasingly wicked and that they weren't about to repent. Maybe he had a similar reason to the present.
I agree with your assessment and it provides the clearest perspective I've found on how to understand what's going on with the church and the world, but why couldn't the church just remain silent and neutral rather than lend support? Why can't they just be uninvolved and accept that we have lost the culture war and not enter the political arena anymore? The statement makes it appear that they are trying to please / appease the world in my opinion.
Good question.
yeah.....they never come out for good laws or bad ones being repealed...its embarressing
I am so grateful for your sober and grounded talks on these issues. You are a breathe of fresh air in an increasingly polarized church culture.
I really appreciate that.
The best Constitutional scholar in Washington is the Senator from Utah. Mike Lee offered an amendment that would ensure the rights of religious people who don’t want to be coerced and stated: “I voted against the motion to proceed to the “Respect for Marriage Act” because the religious Liberty protection clauses were severely anemic and largely illusory. While I respect the efforts and emotions surrounding this issue, the bill does not simply codify Oberfegell as it’s proponents claim. And despite the proposed amendments from Senators Baldwin and Collins, the religious Liberty protections are WOEFULLY insufficient (emphasis mine). Religious Americans will be subject to potentially RUINOUS LITIGATION, while the tax-exempt status of certain charitable organizations, educational institutions, and non-profits will be threatened. My amendment would have shored up these vulnerabilities. It’s a shame it wasn’t included.”
Why in the world would not the Church leaders consult with the Utah Senator who is the top constitutional legal mind in DC, instead of the progressive lawyers and bureaucrats who have worked this way into the Church office building?
Yes- why aren’t we just preaching the gospel, gathering Israel, and redeeming the dead?
Personally I think that President Nelson is using to recreate the "Mormon Moment" we had at the beginning of President Hinkley's tenure as prophet when most people thought well of us. It evaporated with the prop. 8 ballot measure. Personally I don't want the "world" thinking well of us at this point. This statement makes some people think we're waffling on this issue.
I don't think that President Nelson is any less of a prophet for this just as I don't think digging for buried treasure to solve the Church's financial situation made Joseph Smith any less of one either.
Seems like a fair amount apologetics on an
Issue that should be very straightforward. Does it seem reasonable to have to do this much explaining about the Church’s action on such an issue? Would a Book of Mormon prophet be in such a gray area? We did a lot of work with Prop 8 in CA to the level of getting verbal threats from neighbors who didn’t like the “vitriol” of signs in our yard. What a change. Is the “long game” on this per the church lawyers the way to go? Or should the church be more declarative? Difficult stuff. I have a hard time thinking Captain Moroni would do this.
I know Captain Moroni would not put out this declaration.
No BoM prophet would be this soft.
I think the church is just trying to make it thru the last days without taking to many hits. I think the brethren must feel or be inspired that it's no use to fight because the war is already lost, the prophesies of the BoM are being fulfilled. The people are too wicked to keep the promised land. This is my opinion. I don't like it, and I think as individuals we have to decide if we'll fight or "just board the Ark" and wait. What does being anxiously engaged in Good causes mean now?
You are right. Too many words. Too many excuses. We all know where this leads.
So we'll articulated. So clarifying on this issue. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you for posting this video. These are tough topics to discuss but are very needed to keep us informed. One of the reason I love your channel is that you will tackle these type of discussions to gather and share additional insights that the church doesn't always address. This new info on the marriage act is definitely a head scratcher.
My thoughts are thst the church seems to be scared and threatened by the LGBTQ movement. Thst they will eventually force the church to perform same sex marriage in our temple's. It seems they are trying to be nice and coddle the LGBTQ community to make sure they don't hurt their precious feelings. I agree, this comes across very hypocritical. Now, had they come out and said...we support the LGBTQ s right of CHOICE to enter into same set marriages would be different. But to me, it sounds like the church is supporting same sexmarriage outside of the church instead of the CHOICE to enter into that type of marriage. Does that make sense?
The Proclamation on the Family doesn't stand in isolation. It is a collection of doctrines in a statement of belief, including core doctrines on marriage and gender, that have always been there - in the scriptures, in teachings by modern prophets, and in the temple. If somebody's understanding of the doctrine of the family rests on one proclamation alone, they are on shakey ground.
My local stake is pushing The Giving Machine that's coming to Atlanta, Ga. I don't understand why especially for church members. It's a good thing for the World. I personally would rather help people in person, instead of inserting a credit card into a machine.
Are they pushing it to replace fast offerings, or do they want you to do it in addition too fast offerings?
thats a good thing. its pure, well maintained charity, much more than gov ever would
these machines are not a good idea because they could be owned by others and not owned by the church. They could and would be legally forced to sell identical machines to anyone who wants to buy them just like ATM machine businesses and candy machine businesses.
I have studied this and that's my concern.
Also, I believe that many of these machines are not actually owned by the church but are instead 'partnered' and this is going to come out.
That seems misguided. The church has a Humanitarian Aid fund which the Stake should be encouraging instead.
I hate those giving machines its all for public appearances.
How will this law effect being a non profit as we use our tithes and offerings to lift and support less fortunate to provide for their communities and stability?
?
I support Mike Lee!
His amendment is the way
I know the church is trying to build bridges here.. critics of the bill have said the rights ensured therein are not very strong. Im inclined to believe that. History has shown if we give an inch, a mile will be taken in return. I doubt any rights we try to enshrine for religion in tandem with recognizing same sex marriage will stand in the long run.
The respect for marriage act repeals the defense of marriage act.
Interesting. Can you elaborate?
@@andrewwood6285 posting the 10th amendment below. Basically, there is NOTHING in the Constitution regarding marriage (or medicine/vaccines or education or abortion or health care) which means the federal government has NO authority or jurisdiction on any of those issues, those items are supposed to fall under the local state
Tenth Amendment
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
@@kdeltatube sorry I should have been more specific where did you read the article about the SCOTUS?
Thank you for sharing my op-ed thoughtfully and within context.
It was well thought out.
I'm sure some members thought Wilford Woodruff was caving to the government when the Lord ended polygamy through him. But that was the Lord's will.
If the internet were around in the Book of Mormon times, I'm sure many Nephites would have thought Ammon was selling out when he bowed before a murderous Lamanite king and vowed to be his servant.
Some members probably don't like reading Mosiah 20:22, in which Gideon states, "And now let us pacify the king, and we fulfil the oath which we have made unto him; for it is better that we should be in bondage than that we should lose our lives; therefore, let us put a stop to the shedding of so much blood."
The Lord has his ways. Our job is to understand them and align with them, however much humbling that may take or however nonsensical they may seem to our limited understanding.
How about those who own property and want requirements of lds standards to rent? BYU housing and private people are going to have issues.
So far this mostly falls under Title IX. I am not aware if this will affect Title lX.
Remember… trust in the Lord and may I add especially when we can’t understand. Prophets can see around corners. This law also has to do with the future of our religious freedom. It may be a protection for our future ability to be able to worship according to our beliefs. Pray to see through the eyes of God. Do you remember Corrie ten Boon being grateful for the fleas? She was grateful for the annoying fleas that hindsight saved her life. Also, think about for the new Strength of Youth pamphlet. The world believes that the Church has abandoned the strict moral code and that we gave into the pressures of the world, but those that have eyes to see… it is an opportunity for individual to discern for themselves the higher and holier laws of Choosing to follow Christ and He is your motivation, rather than a list of dos and don’t s. I also feel it is a test for all of us. What about Abraham’s sacrifice. The sifting is going to take place and our Prophet has prepared us by pleading for us to gain a testimony and grow and nurture that testimony for our survival. Bad mouthing leaders for what we don’t understand yet is a quick way to fall. I believe there is a reason that we cannot begin to understand. Think how the Prophet prepared us for Covid. Remember our goal is to become a Zion people…. Let’s have faith in Christ, trust in Him, and see the Hand of the Lord unfold. I often wonder what I originally thought was President Nelson’s tears at the end of Conference was a farewell. I now wonder if it is because he knows what lies ahead for us. He plead for us to choose God’s ways over man’s, to overcome the world. There is a statement of the stance of the Doctrine of the Church as being marriage between a man and a woman. The truth is there for us to see, but the adversary is going to get us with what we are reading into it. Have faith. Trust in the Lord. Stop questioning and add exclamation points. I feel based upon Sister Nelson’s comments at the Canada devotional or fireside, the church and leaders are under attack in ways we cannot fully understand.
Greg, I appreciate the continued discussion.
These are crucial topics, but I'm afraid many comments I've read on this topic are heavy on the skeptical side, and a bit anemic on support of the brethren. These issues are not decided frivolously nor easily. Surely, there was much thought and prayer by President Nelson and his supportive circle of counselors and the Twelve on how to proceed with this massive issue. This can't be simplified or explained away as bad legal advice or a misguided strategy aimed at increasing our popularity with the world. There's much more to it than that.
I love Sheri Dew's statement that "prophets see around corners." The question we must ask ourselves is this: do we believe that? Do we believe that President Nelson deems this an important topic to seek the guidance of the Lord? Would this action be taken based on the advice of church attorneys alone? Is it any coincidence that one of the more brilliant legal minds we've had in the church sits immediately to the right of our dear prophet? Or that we have attorneys among the ranks of the Twelve?
It's time to exercise more faith!
Faith that the Lord can do His own work. Faith that the brethren are aware of these issues keenly and intimately. Faith that we are not being lead astray, or that the Lord's church is somehow weakening our position down the road.
I love Ted Cruz. I'm a huge fan. I love Mike Lee. I don't think his position is at odds with the brethren on this. If anything, they were commending him specifically for fighting to include important amendments to the legislation that will inevitably pass. At the end of the day, I do not sustain Ted Cruz or Mike Lee as prophets, seers, and revelators. I will not allow my conservative predilections to override my faith that the Lord is at the head of His church and guides our prophet and his associates in the senior councils.
In all of my limited experience, I have never had or heard of a legitimate instance where the Holy Ghost told me or anyone I know that the prophet is wrong. The exercise of faith in seeking the Spirit is always about changing my view and broadening my perspective such that I lose whatever inclination I may have had to find fault or criticize the brethren on a particular issue. I believe that is why the Lord invites us to seek our own confirmation. Has the Lord ever conveyed through His Spirit that the Book of Mormon is NOT true? I would emphatically say Never! Why? Because a house divided against itself cannot stand. That does not mean that prophets are infallible. All of us can find historical examples where Joseph, Brigham, or others of the apostles where in error. However, when the brethren act unitedly, we can be confident that the will of the Lord is the utmost priority.
This is not the first time we have been asked to pivot. It won't be the last. However, I don't believe the brethren are asking that we wave the white flag or stop advocating that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God. They simply outlined a path moving forward. Now my job as a disciple of Jesus Christ is to seek understanding through the Spirit how I can better align myself with the brethren, and not seek to justify my own personal views by assuming they must be mistaken on some level.
This is the Lord's invitation to grow.
Great commentary from you as always.
well spoken and those of us who are disgusted at the thought of same sex marriage will find our way through this unholy mess for "GOD will not be mocked ".
Is Sheri Dew a lesbian secretly influencing doctrinal changes?
Did they see around corners when they encouraged the church membership to inject poison into their bodies?
Thanks for the comment. Reading through the other comments on here is very unsettling. A lot of members here seem very eager to doubt the Brethren or reason that this is an act of the "corporate" side of the Church. Such thoughts are the seeds of apostasy.
Perhaps, instead of drowning, we learn to swim!
The church wades in to the political woke realm - why not the conservative realm….
Because they are scared of their own shadow, so they just pander to the woke.
For example, Will they support laws to protect minors from trans surgeries? And oppose laws like CA trans surgeries without parental consent?
@@kdeltatube good question.
I am somewhat laughing, because people thought Noah was nuts when he started building the ark. What may seem like nuts to us now might actually save our lives. Get on the ark!
yeah noah didnt join the evil crowd....he built the ark ...didnt join them in wrong....
@@wufflerdance9481 Did you read the Church’s statement? Do you remember Article of Faith 11 and 12? Did you look over the FSY. Noah did not join them in wrong and nor have our leaders and the Doctrine of the Gospel. Look closely with eyes to see and ears to hear. The world is portraying one way from a worldly point of view. Marriage stands between a woman and man and is ordained of God. We are to love all of God’s children and leave judgment to God. We continue to teach the Family Proclamation and we all our brothers and sisters to choose Christ or the ways of the world. I feel there’s so much more to this that we can’t even begin to understand. Is it possible that without religious freedom act we would be forced to accept and perform things contrary to our beliefs? Could in be a test? Quickly people jumped and made assumptions without asking for the understanding in the spiritual realm. Satan will do all he can to create doubt and misrepresent truth. Look past the headlines and see what the act is about. Noah was asked to build an ark when it wasn’t raining. The Church is supporting a Religious Freedom Act so that we may be free to choose and act upon our beliefs. I am trusting in the Lord.
@@RebeccaGroendyke oh Ive read it all....
and what happened "to dare to stand alone...dare to have a purpose dare to make it known" -pres monson
even the announcement ia contraying to what pres nelson preached in passed years
the first paragraph was fine...the rest was not. that is why lgbt people are sooooo excited and happy by it....anything that makes them happy should have us scared
lgbt trans beleifs didnt used to be allowed to be embraced...now its in our church schools....
pulling our youth.
the ysa ward in my area has more men then woman and apparently the main reason is due to how many woman went trans and inactive
ive lost 1 in law to going trans and she didnt have those feelings at all even 4 years ago...
and its law of chastity...a big deal
I agree. I also sense what you are not saying also. That is why I am so glad I went to the Temple recently and was sealed to my recently deceased wife. I was told something may be coming in the future that could be a real legal battle which we cannot see over the horizon, but the Church does see. If you know what mean.
Dirk...
I too recently was sealed with my deceased husband. While it has been several years since he stepped back into Eternity, I was guilty of "one of these days...", then I began to feel an urgency to do this... I feel part of that urgency was to complete this in anticipation of more unknowns coming our way.
There is an additional 'strength' and surety knowing that sweet ordinance has been offered to us both. It cannot be undone by any entity here.
...so now, my Joe and I have this soul armor for our realms of future battle!
I am satisfied that the bill does NOT establish adequate religious protections for churches, church-owned schools, hospitals and other entities as well as for individuals (think about what anti-LGBTQ-discrimination laws did to Jack Phillips of Masterpiece Cakeshop). That deficiency MUST be address as Senator Mike Lee suggests.
As for the Church's statement regarding the bill, I see the Brethren as being between a rock and a hard place. If they take a stand against the bill (or cleanse BYU, Deseret News, KSL, etc.), countless Saints will leave the church and tithes will plummet (killing the Church's ability to do good). That apostacy is inevitable but, apparently, the time for the separation of the wheat and the tares is not yet a hand (Matthew 13:24-30).
Your mention of D&C 58:26-29 is apt. I see those verses as telling the Saints to get informed and to get active in fighting for righteousness in the culture war. Sadly, I'm guessing that the portion of Saints who will contact their congresscritters on this or any other moral matter will be less than 1%.
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." -- Walt Kelly in "Pogo"
Thanks so much for your program, I appreciate your insight. My husband & I met you at the Book of Mormon Evidence Conf in Oct in Salt Lake City & loved your talk!!!
BTW how can we get more info about the Cardio product?
Glad we could meet!
Here is a link to my Cardi Miracle page - cwic.qwkcheckout.com/
I am comfortable with the doctrine of the church as contained in the Proclamation on the Family, and know that it will not change. But, this kind of support for same-sex marriage and the Respect for Marriage Act will not work the way the church thinks it will. The LGBTQIA2S+ community will not stop until they are allowed in the temple to be sealed to whatever type of partner they want. The lack of protection from tax exempt status removal in the bill will probably come back to haunt the church in the future, as Mike Lee rightly points out. If Mitt Romney supports something, I am generally against it. I agree with you that there should be a "why" from the church; I don't think that is asking too much. We live in the last days, and these challenges will get worse and worse and people will leave the church over this, but it will not get better.
Article of faith comes to mind, that we let others do so we can do. As Emma and Joseph had so much discomfort in their lifetime, and so did Moroni and Adam, we are in good Company.
The gospel my not have changed, but the leaders certainly have. They are trying to play both sides. So it's OK to pass a law which forces me to go against my beliefs and religion, but it's not ok for the church? The leaders are only looking out for themselves and the church assets. These leaders are fulfilling prophecy without realizing that they are. When you support and uphold the rights of wicked people over the rights and beliefs (which are part of our constitution), of your members. You have a serious problem. This is why LDS church and its temples will be destroyed. For the Lord said, He will begin in His own house.
The following is taken from the BOM.....
"ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls?"
"O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies-because of the praise of the world?"
Thank you. Moroni warns us in Mormon 8 that the threat to the church in the latter days will be INTERNAL. Jesus was betrayed by an apostle.....are we better than He?
Neither the church nor the temples will be destroyed. The church only supported the bill after protections were added for religious freedom. They wanted to protect the temples and the ordinances performed within. There may be a cleansing within the church, but we don't know how it would happen.
Obviously you don't know history. The Jews thought the same thing. Yet their temple was destroyed. The first two temples, Kirtland and Nauvoo were taken away. So to think that the Lord won't destroy these temples, is completely wrong. My advice, keep an eye on the Salt Lake Temple. That will be the first the Lord will destroy.
@@keith5459 I do know history, and I also know the gospel well enough to know the temples will not be destroyed. The Salt Lake Temple will stand through to the Millenium. All the Temples the church has built will be needed for the Millenium so the work of God can progress faster and in a time of peace.
Thanks Greg! What you’re discussing is sooo needed.
The proclamation was to the world not just the church. Thus it will need to remove "To the World". Also the Family Proclamation came about in the same time frame as the "Defense of marriage act", congress was debating and later signed into law by Bill Clinton in 1996. The Proclamation to the Family came out a year earlier (1995) but is not unique to church doctrine. I think the church has opened a can of worms by going against their own doctrine of marriage between a man and a women and revealed "to the world." So much for "standing alone" in defense of God. It's all political and to protect the church finances. Money should never trump defending the laws of God! God bless the family unit.
Just a random thought, but maybe this is the way the church cuts ties with byu 🤷♀️
I believe the Proclamation on the Family will be cannonized soon.
Yes it was presented in 1995 almost 30 years ago, but now more than ever, we need to stand for truth. I see the cannonization of this proclamation as that crucial step.
It’s an official proclamation, so (to my mind, at least) that is canonized. What else can the Church do with it? All 15 prophets, seers, and revelators of that time signed it.
The only thing left to do would be to attach it to the D&C, and that’s not going to happen.
Official proclamations are as “scripture” as modern scripture gets.
Right?
It’s not canonized? All the brethren signed the thing, what makes it not cannon?
@@jojr5145 yeah, try to find a signature block on one these days. That has been eliminated from our culture.
In football terms, the Church is playing bend-don't-break defense. It's playing eight back, allowing the opposition short runs and passes underneath the pass coverage. Someday, the Church and its members will have to make a goal-line stand.
Are you a BYU fan?
@@CwicShow Is it obvious? I'm a fan of all of the good that BYU does, not just in sports (this football season has been a minor disappointment). There is so much good beyond the playing fields and courts that BYU students faculty, and staff do that needs to be celebrated.
@@brb5506 Haha. By your description of "bend-don't break defense," I made an educated guess. I share your frustration there.
I do recall a time when the church may have said something similar about losing the culture war...when slavery and racism was the norm of society only to allow the church to deny the priesthood to blacks and later regret it. Something similar will happen here with this strategy the church has.
Rather than us guessing what's going on, this requires a full discourse from Nelson...is that not his job?
Ask what is our job? We came to be tested and proved, instead of being critical, pray for our leaders. When we don’t have all the information, that is when faith is required. Turn to the Savior, ask Him to help you.
@@RebeccaGroendyke intetesting we say let's turn to personal revelation when it's convenient however at other we say we should always look to the prophet for guidance. The hardcore lds individuals always let the prophets off the hool very easily. This is why i do believe in personal revelation. I do not believe we should rely solely on the prophet's guidance as we are too often taught. They are merely men trying their best and just as we have a hard time sometimes finding answers to our prayers so do they. I don't envy their position-i imagine it's a difficult one.
@@chf159 I hear what you are saying. The Prophet receives revelation for the Church as a whole. We receive personal revelation for our individual lives. I think one of the reasons we have been counseled to learn how we hear Him (the Savior) is because there be hard things asked of us, things that don’t make sense right now. Even the Savior in 3 Nephi, after speaking to the people,
I perceive that ye are weak, that ye cannot understand all my words which I am commanded of the Father to speak unto you at this time.
3 Therefore, go ye unto your homes, and ponder upon the things which I have said, and ask of the Father, in my name, that ye may understand, and prepare your minds for the morrow, and I come unto you again.
You can receive personal revelation over the things the Prophet speaks.
SSM may gain marriage rights in world societies but will never gain the same rights in Christ's church or through His priesthood.
except now they can pressure the church financially and members
The law of the land says come into this country LEGALLY...
Please don’t take this as cynical as much as an observation but if we are not handbook robots and we sight 58 as a guide to make a healthy bend of the handbook you find yourself released a short period after your suggestion. I would be cautious about quoting the prophet Joseph Smith here in our current church culture. Sometimes it feels as if the handbook is canon and the scripture is rarely read suggestions among some of us.
I get what you are saying, but I'll be bold like Joseph. I don't care about releases.
@@CwicShow I also took that position I really felt my suggestion was benign. Others are dare I say “stiffnecked” when it came to the handbook. Personally I felt it was an excuse to do nothing and ignore the “I give unto you a commandment to regard not yourselves” D&C 84:43 and spend the weekend doing what they wanted to do instead of having a youth activity.
But I never was good at the “politics” game.
I guess the crux of it even the topic of the episode is agency. It’s like the best selling book, “Agency, and How to Enforce It!” I see in this issue the church attempting to strike balance for both sides to respect each others agency on this secular issue.
You have done a very good job traversing these challenging topics. Well done.
Hi Greg. First I want to say thanks for all the time and effort you selflessly give to help us become more aware/informed. I'm sure it's under simplified, but I tend to view this in the text of rendering unto Ceaser's what is Ceaser's
One thing I'm frustrated with and no correction being made is being called the "Mormon Church". I feel it's often done in a derogatory way
I thought we are to stand up for the TRUE and correct name of our church "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". I appreciate all your insights
Isn't separating what we know we should do and our actions mean we lack integrity and create a division within ourselves?
Means we’re human and in need a savior.
I suggest that's a misrepresentation of the issue. What we law states is not related to what we do or believe, unless it specifically requires some action - which is not happening here. A more accurate representation would be do we really believe in moral agency - the right of people to choose to believe - or not? Laws against sin are a two edge sword - they are blocks to agency. Are people not committing sin because they are following the law of the land, or because they are aligned with Christ. In this case, the statement in support of the bill reminds me more of Joshua's statement from Joshua 24 “And Joshua said unto all the people [of Israel], … choose you this day whom ye will serve; … but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord,” Look at the first part of the statement - it is essentially "we will serve the Lord" and the rest is a recognition that others can indeed choose whom they will follow.
@@RichardChappell1 well said. I support free agency.
Is there not some parallel with, “I may not agree with what you say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it?”
Considering how strong previous prophets have preached against the doctrines of Sodom and Gomorrah, it make we wonder if we are in the time of Isaiah 29:10 and 56:10, when the watchmen are asleep at their posts.
…or the watchmen took off and boarded this arc which everyone speaks of.
You bring up so many different aspects to this. I love how you brought all of this up and then brought it together. I suppose for me, personally, after reading Isaiah, I'm going to rely on the Prophet to make some of the harder decisions for The Saviors Church. I feel like we will see many more "hard to understand" scenarios in the future and as they play out, with our faith intact, we'll see miracles in these events. God is never going to change... WE ARE. I believe this is a time in this world where the sifting is going to be getting much greater. I just do. I believe without a solid, strong and pure testimony, we will suffer within ourselves. I honestly believe our days are numbered and most of us who are sleeping won't awaken until it is possibly too late. We have everything we need to survive as true members of the Church. If we are not pure members and we're going through the motions each day, we will eventually get caught up in the smallest snares. I believe Jesus Christ runs his church. I believe our Prophet is preordained for this particular day. I believe we have the pure truth in our doctrine and when others want to go against it, God will preach His gospel to them in particular. I was comparing so many events with Noah, but then the other day my son brought up Enoch and compared that day and age to our time now. He said, "I was thinking this was more like a Captain Moroni or Helaman Era until I started seeing so much happen all at once in the world that has a noise that doesn't go quiet ever, trying to preach the gospel is more unpopular now than any time in my life yet it is still required, people are making a solid decision to be defiant and fall away from truth, so I feel like Enoch keeps coming to my mind". I agree, I think for a Millenial, he really is seeing things much more differently than anyone who is over 40. He really had some interesting points,I wish I had time and space to just give you his whole conversation. I think we should be asking our kids what they think about the current situation of this earth... it was inspiring and interesting to hear all the concerns he has and how he ended all he had to say with his testimony and faith. Thank you for going over this. I really love and enjoy this channel.
Sounds like you have a very wise son.
Appreciate the ideas here. Always a measured and considered response with well structured thoughts. 🔥🔥
thank you
Good questions here @Cwic, much to chew on.
A comment by another LDS channel made an interesting observation. Look at the Articles of Faith #11 & 12 together; ...
"let them worship how, where, or what they may".... and we also believe in " sustaining the law".
To many of these individuals, that lifestyle is almost lived as though it their religion. We stand by their right to worship "how or what they may".
I just wish that bill had stronger protection for religious liberty.
For a time, it was legal to shoot a Mormon on site in the state of Missouri. It's Ok to work towards changing laws for the better. This attitude some have that once a law is made we have to live with it is insane. That's not how our country works. The law gives us the power to work to change the law.
the bill just lets them attack us
You going to regret how this administration interprets this law without the amendment to tell them they can’t do something.
Some laws we Saints believe in and want enforced, like don’t steal. Other laws we believe in but don’t expect to be enforced, like don’t commit adultery. And some laws we give up on entirely because we don’t have a prayer of having them enforced, like marriage in God’s way.
I suppose the Church is just being realistic.
I hope this doesn’t turn out like the salamander letters and leave a black eye on the church 😢, I think we are dealing with a carnal society and catering to the woke demands. Nerveless I still acknowledge our prophet as one who holds the priesthood keys.
I understand the issue and comments being made but I really think the Church should stand on principle and let the consequence follow. At a minimum I think the Church should have remained neutral. I see no reason why they would put out a statement in favor of this bill. It sends the wrong message.
Do they still sing that song in primary?
The ark is built and it is time to get on. There is no reason to fight this culture war to try and turn things around. At some point Noah said that it is time to close the doors and move on with Gods work, and then the flooding came. I believe the church is getting to that point. The call to get on the ark is now regardless of where we are with culture wars.
I disagree. The ark is over and done with. God said he’d never do that again. These are the last days, where we stand in defense of what is right. Where the world will fear Zion. How can they fear Zion if it’s institutions are giving up on the fight? Naw Satan is happy with our “concessions”.
@@jacobhardwick8396 it’s a figure of speech, of course the world is going to be flooded again. It’s time to live your life in a Christ like way, defend what is right and not get caught up in the worldly culture ways. The world is what it is so it is time to get on the ark.
Where is this Arc you speak of? Where is this refuge? When our children are taught these evil ideologies in church sponsored schools? When abortion clinics are in most towns in ‘Zion’? Where is this safe place? The cultural war will not stop at some imaginary line. It’s coming for you whenever you are. If you don’t fight now when will you fight? When your grandchildren raise up and despise you will you say it is enough. Where is your line in the sand?
@@andrewwood6285 sorry misspelled word, “isn’t going to flood “. There is no literal ark, it’s a figure of speech like I said in an earlier post. What I mean is that a choice needs to be made to either follow Christ or not to follow Christ, get on the boat, or don’t get on the boat. Yes we should fight for all righteousness, but this world will not turn to righteousness until Christ comes, it’s in the scriptures.
@@erikcarpenter7860 your ‘Arc’ must have a cabin without a view of what is happening to your children. Stay on your ‘arc’ hide in your stateroom, don’t see the suicides of those around you, hold your breath and soon it will all be over. And this inaction will save you?
What do you think about the prop 8 Californians who were asked to advocate with time and money against same sex marriage ?
My son and his wife said they felt like ( about prop 8) that if you supported same sex marriage you were against the church but now it’s ok to support it politically
Very difficult. These are the problems that Church runs into as they enter the culture war. Right or wrong, there are difficulties in advancing in that war and retreating. I think we should separate ourselves individually from the church when possible in the culture war.
@@CwicShow I agree with you. My son is active and says that this doesn’t effect his testimony , but that he is done listening to the church’s positions on political issues bc they change their minds. I can’t exactly blame him.
I gave a lot of $ and time to both Prop 8 and the previous measure (Prop 22 I think?) that the Church supported in California. That first proposition was overturned by the court, so Prop 8 was a constitutional amendment, supposedly prevent court from overturning. Obviously, that didn't work either. I never felt bad about supporting those propositions, even though they lost, because we did all we could do. It was a sort of Zion's Camp experience, especially for the younger people who were out knocking on doors, carrying signs, being cursed at, etc. Now the church's stand on the new bill (which has passed now) makes it more confusing for people who aren't paying attention. If you're going to follow the church position, you are saying, yes I support the bill which legalizes same sex marriage but I don't support same sex marriage because it was already legal but now there are religious liberty protections in the new law (supposedly). Except in reality, the protections aren't there. I don't know. I certainly need more divine guidance on this....
It is brave to say the doctrine will never change. The church has changed it’s fundamental doctrine in response to social shifts various times. In 50 years almost no one living in the developed world will think of sexuality the way the LDS church currently does. Not to say that a religion can’t dig in and hold to beliefs that aren’t reflected in the world around it. But the continued growth of the LDS church is a key thread in its dogma and it has shown over time that it chooses adjustment to its principles rather than marginalisation and reduction. It needs to keep growing to prove its narrative is true, and is currently struggling to find a way to do that.
The growth of the Church is not coming from the developed world but from more conservative, family centered regions of the world.
Another straw man response. The church is headquartered in the developed world and led primarily by people in it or from it. So it will be marginalised in its own country and subject to restrictions placed on it there. Or change. Or it could pick up and move to one of those conservative countries. It has certainly done that before. And those ‘family centered’ regions are changing too. Globalism and the internet are accelerating that. And aside from all that, it does not want to hemorrhage membership in places where it has traditionally been strong. Western US, Latín America, etc. It will change as it always has, and as all religions have done and will always do.
This seems confusing and upsetting at first glance, but I am seeing it differently. I respect other’s opinions, but I do not believe the church is showing support for this act. “We are grateful for the continuing efforts of those who work to ensure the Respect for Marriage Act includes appropriate religious freedom protections”. That statement never says they support the Respect for Marriage Act, it says they support those that are ensuring religious freedom. The church can’t prevent this act from being passed! They are accepting the fact that it’s being passed, and they showing support for those ensuring religious freedom is not infringed upon. Stop the panic and trust our prophet!
I hope that if polygamy will be permitted in heavens, polyandry will be too and same-sex marriages. Because any of those types of marriages are about family.
It’s the separation of the wheat from the tares
Of course I don't know, but I imagine that a policy of politicization is polarizing and teaching the doctrine of Christ is unifying. What would Jesus do?
As always, I’m going to offer a slightly different take on this but, Greg, I think we will largely Agee here.
My POV doesn’t come from what the bill is or isn’t but to the reason why the church puts its support behind it.
And this POV has a lengthy history of context to support it.
Back in the 80’s I was in a Saturday night session of stake conference where there was a general authority speaking.
The issue of baptizing illegal immigrants came up and he was asked “if we are supposed to obey the laws of the land, then why are we baptizing those who aren’t willing to?”.
His answer is the basis of many church decisions to date and in the future.
“The mission of the church is to preach the gospel.”
It was just that simple.
And the church won’t allow anything to get in the way of that.
It’s a principle, not a policy.
And with the current support, I believe it’s good to reference the BSA situation that found the church separating itself from it.
It took time until it could go no further.
The church can’t separate itself from the government as it discovered during the legal disputes over polygamy that created the Edmonds-Tucker Act and the failed Supreme Court appeal which said “you can believe anything you want but you can’t DO anything you want”.
It’s in that spirit that the church is going to bide it’s time with this support while holding out on adopting the practices of the LGBTQ population for as long as possible.
Because of the warning bells sounded by Lee and Cruz, we should understand that the church is open to attacks by the LGBTQ community…and the church will lose.
This, (barring any other major societal shift like nuclear war, another pandemic, etc) may well result in the closing of temples again.
If you look closely at how the church has always operated since polygamy in modern times, I think you’ll see how this is a sensible understanding combined with another where we need to understand that the church has never, and should never, exist in a bubble.
As always, thanks for inspiring great conversation and interacting with me every now and then. 😁
I never forget who is in charge here, that being the Lord Jesus Christ. His 'will' will be done and our responsibility is to follow. I don't think supporting or not supporting a bill changes anything. Psalm 46:10 "Be still and know that I am God".
That statement seems like Luke warm water to me.
@@andrewwood6285 It may seem that way, but I'm just saying follow the prophet.
I listened to Spencer W Kimball's opening talk from the Oct 77 general conference. If there is any message for our day, that fits the bill. In the same light, I believe Elder Oaks is proactively addressing what is coming soon. Very similar to the Proclamation of the family when it was given. Thank God for prophets, seers and revelators! Love the channel, thanks for all you do.
#CwicMedia Thank You As I said in my comments on the other video regarding this - Great pob
Hi Greg. Great show, as always. Not sure if you'll see this, but I have some thoughts about your last point about the church's statement and paragraph 9 of the family proclamation:
"But what if those two documents aren’t at odds at all? What if the best way to “preserve and maintain” traditional marriage in our current cultural climate is also to preserve LGBTQ rights? In other words, what if the church isn’t capitulating or retreating from the marriage issue, but making a strategic retreat in anticipation of a new front opening up in the culture wars-a battle which will make strange bedfellows of same-sex marriage proponents and the defenders of traditional marriage?
...
Which brings us to the next major front in the culture wars, which I believe is going to be between those who view marriage and family as a social good, and those who view them as “systems of oppression” and want to abolish the family altogether.
...
If this is the next big front in the culture wars, then conservatives might play right into the hand of the enemy by continuing to push a losing cultural battle for the traditional definition of marriage. After all, what better way to “get the government out of the marriage business” than to point out that we can’t even agree on the definition of marriage in the first place? And once the state becomes agnostic to marriage, we’re well on the slippery slope to a society that views the family itself as obsolete and unnecessary."
www.onelowerlight.com/writing/whats-really-behind-the-mormon-churchs-stance-on-the-respect-for-marriage-act/
Considering the divisive nature of this statement I'd say it's having the intended effects that it was calculated to. This is more sifting and testing. If members can't or won't seek the spirit for their comfort and guidance when these "controversies" arise (and they will continue to until the coming of our Lord) then holding onto the rod of iron is going to be that much more difficult. Christ is at the head of His church. I wouldn't be surprised if the leaders are nervous about this amendment's implications but have nothing to go on but the assurance of the Holy Ghost. Hang on everyone! The ride is just getting bumpy!
Most Western countries require all marriages to be performed by civil authority. In countries that require civil authority for marriage, temple sealing is a religious rite, not a legal marriage. The Church could require this everywhere, including in the U.S. and Canada. It would eliminate the concern that the government could try to force the Church to perform same-sex marriages because any marriage performed by a Church official, in or out of the temple, would be solely the exercise of religion, guaranteed under the First Amendment.
Do you think there will be a significant fracture within the Church between those who prioritize being mainstream/accepted versus those who prioritize purer, more peculiar aspects of our faith?
Going to be? Already is.
Listening while drinking my Cardio!
Let’s not offend the devil.
Well said. We are giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
I can't help wondering where the Muslim community stands on the direction of this
...when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place... then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be... THEY might win this battle, but they will not win the war.
And THEY might include a fair number of fellow church members.
I was in the military a few years ago when President Clinton brokered a deal with the ‘Don’t ask don’t tell’ policy. That was a great compromise… for a while. This Senate Bill looks like a great compromise also.
The main thing I see is this:
“And now, verily I say unto you, and this is wisdom, make unto yourselves FRIENDS WITH THE MAMMON OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, and they will not destroy you. Leave judgement alone with me, for it is mine and I will repay.” (D&C 82:22) This in the context of building up funds for the establishment of Zion despite persecution. (Side note: in the institute manual for that section there’s a long quote from GBH on the importance of church-owned business in serving and providing relief.) It’s not time to pull the pin yet.
Also, for those who are concerned about the woke bureaucracy in church headquarters (my hand raised), I have a feeling that a not-yet-fulfilled prophecy will help calm some ruffled feathers: the enigmatic parable of the nobleman and the olive trees. D&C 101:43-62. Those slothful servants have a lot they’ll be held accountable for. Side eye on you, church office building and PR department.
The church should focus on getting the government out of marriage. None of this makes a difference if marriage is a private religious institution.
In these discussions, I think it's becoming increasingly necessary to delineate between the church as the corporation/bureaucracy, and the Church as the vehicle of the Gospel. While there is certainly crossover and overlap, more and more there are public statements that are, at best, only tangential to what we used to think was "the church" as the vehicle for the gospel. The bureaucracy is becoming more and more visible, and appears to be a wee bit "woke" in nature.
More than a "wee bit."
You’re right. And BYU is in the lead there. As a university, they are overly anxious to be accepted by the world as legitimate and scholarly. But as a church, we are overly anxious to be accepted by the world as normal and mainstream Christian.
So are you saying we are becoming two different churches?
I'd say 1 church full of different people and different ideologies. The woke and the awake are like water and vinegar...we won't mix.
The woke outright deny natural law and, ultimately, nature's God. Woke ideology is satanic doctrine disguised as charity and love and tolerance.
Greg has alluded to this in other videos with activism
Nothing is temporal to the Lord. The Church does not comprise a "corporation" and a "church." It's all the Church. Anyone who is bothered by that is going to have a hard time adjusting during the Millennium.
“We are grateful for the continuing efforts of those who work to ensure the Respect for Marriage Act includes appropriate religious freedom protections while respecting the law and preserving the rights of our LGBTQ brothers and sisters. We believe this approach is the way forward,” said the Mormon church. “As we work together to preserve the principles and practices of religious freedom together with the rights of LGBTQ individuals, much can be accomplished to heal relationships and foster greater understanding."
I disagree that the Church's stance on the Respect Marriage act is in conflict with the last paragraph of the Family Proclamation. The Church does not say it supports the bill. It supports the fact that people (Senator Lee) are working to include religious freedom in the bill. THAT is the way forward, to include religious freedom so that we can still try to protect our own families.
Also, times have changed and our laws have changed. Back when the Church supported Prop 8 in California it was actively fighting against LGBT marriage. It was trying to stop the LGBT's forward momentum and we actually won! The people won but a year later the government overturned the people's vote on that proposition. Evil reigned and that was the writing on the wall so now the Church has to recognize that LGBT marriage is inevitable. We can't stop it. Our prophet "sees around corners" and knows what is coming. The best we can hope for is getting the 'religious freedom' in the bill to protect our families and the temples for just a little bit longer.
I wish everyone would stop saying the Church supports same-sex marriage. Acknowledging that it exists as law or sustaining it does not mean they 'support' it. Acknowledging that we love our LGBT neighbors does not mean we agree with their beliefs. And yes, as individuals like Senator Lee, we are still supposed to do what we can to slow down the momentum of evil as much as we can.
The Church is not run by perfect people. And as they get older their wisedom and experience seems to give way to age and decline, caution and fear. The influence from the great and spacious building is beginnng to show. Faith is beginning to be overtaken by fear. This is truly, the beginning of the end.
Sorry, but I couldn't disagree with you more on the point that the church is in favor of the bill. But that's okay, I still respect and appreciate your opinion.
I appreciate your comments.
I cannot help thinking there's a lot more going on here than we know. Really appreciate your discussion, Greg, and encouragement to dissect and be aware of where we are. Seeing the uncomfortable. Fighting to stay aware and psychologically responsible for our individual choices, including why we stand where we stand. We will be increasingly pressed for why we believe what we believe. It comes down to individual conviction about doctrines, seeking God's overriding purposes, in spite of seeming contradictions. Despite discomfort. So much need to seek discernment through His Spirit. "We need a buoyant ark" is right!!!
Well said!
I think we're going to make some strange bedfellows too. If the next major front in the culture wars is against those who see the family itself as a "system of oppression" that needs to be deconstructed, then perhaps the best way to "maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society" is to make an alliance with same-sex marriage proponents who also want to preserve the institution of marriage. I suspect that's what the brethren are doing: making a strategic retreat in the culture wars in anticipation of this next big battle.
In the most innocent sense, I think we should all just stay in our lanes and do our best to promote cooperation. In a more cynical sense, this is a religious cold war and the enemy is exploiting our diffident attitude as a Church to gaslight and demoralize.