Is Naoto Shirogane Trans? | Missed Conceptions
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
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#Persona4 #NaotoShirogane #JUNE5 - Ігри
Naoto reminds me to chihiro fujisaki from danganronpa , both characters are cisgender that like to show their gender identity in a way that is more traditionally of the other gender , when what they represent is that clothes and actitudes don’t have a gender and their gender identity doesn’t get defined by what they like to appear as , both were obligated to present themselves in the sex to protect themselves from a hostile place in naotos case the detective field to show that a woman can be a detective no matter what others think and fujisaki to protect himself from bullies that saw him as being “too femenine” to be a boy , saying that they are trans erase their struggles and more importantly their sexual identity
Dang it grandpa is a good game, but a horrible fanbase. Trust me, I’m a fan of the series.
@@FairyHeartGaming agreed , my favorite character is saionji and the one that I hate the most Is Sonia so I’ve experienced in first hand how toxic it is but the characters are great , Celeste , mondo , kuzuryu, owari , mioda , yumeno, gokuhara, etc
People mainly only talk about the toxic fans in the danganronpa fandom there is much more non-toxic than toxic but all they focus on is the toxic fans some people just think everyone in the fandom is toxic this also happens in the gatcha community back to my point the danganronpa fans are rather disgusted at the toxic people it's not the fandom as a whole but you may think as you wish just consider that not everyone is toxic in the danganronpa fandom sorry this is a long comment
Side note I misinterpreted what the 2 comments actually meant
exactly, having a complex gender expression doesn't automatically mean that you're trans.
I'm honestly questioning if people actually played the game.
Honestly I think her coming to terms with being female, despite questioning herself makes her a great female character role model.
Kanji for me was a character that hit close to home for me because I experienced similar things.
Saying Naoto is trans is like saying Mulan is trans.
@@Orionhound we dont know about yamato because we dont know much abou her,but if she isnt i can already predict the shitstorm
@@asura7915 anybody arguing with Ichiro oda I laugh at
That's like saying Naruto is definitive gay
It’s sad because I love Mulan.
@@flaretheblaire A female hiding their gender in order to participate in a male dominated field without being discriminated against? The only difference is Naoto rejected her femininity her entire life but eventually accepts it
Ever since I was a kid, I've always think that Naoto want to be male because in Japan society (and especially the police force), male worker get more respect by default
Congrats. You have human inteligence.
The whole point of her arc is to come to terms with her feminity... Did people miss that ??
Yes.
It basically was the old version of the meme "dont mess with us persona5 fans, we never played persona5"
A bunch of ppl who didnt even played the game read a bit about the character, and started inventing things to push their agenda on others
persona 4 isnt xenogears it's not some deep complex game.
it's very upfront about what its trying to say and it's clear it's examining common anime character types.
@@megamike15Yeah I feel like some people forget that Persona (despite most of its games being rated M in the US) is basically a YA franchise for lack of a better word, like they constantly feel the need to spell out what it’s themes are to a sometimes frustrating degree
I always thought that Naoto and Kanji were more of analysis on how screwed up enforced gender roles are in Japan. Kanji’s sexuality was never stated so it would be disingenuous to assume he’s either gay or straight. I never thought Naoto was trans, but as a woman that did not fit the stereotypical role. If Persona 6 ever comes out, I would them to explore themes of sexuality, trans identity, and other LGBTQ+ themes as it can be a compelling narrative of done right and respectfully. Also, we had a gay romance in Persona in the past with Jun and Aigis.
If people are interested, people should read the manga My Brother’s Husband. It delves into the views on LGBTQ+ community in Japan while comparing to a western country like Canada as the titular husband is from that country.
This is coming from a person who is part of the LGBTQ+ community. So this type of subject makes me understand this more and hope for better LGBTQ+ rep in gaming and not constant projection which lead to toxicity in the community.
Also, I like stories about female detectives so which is why Naoto is a fan favorite of mine.
I read the manga it helped a lot I’m a gay man myself, and yeah honestly I agree that they are more social commentary in what a gender must fill in society which is stupid and the game knows it , tho even if I don’t believe they will get explored because then again the games never gave you a chance to date your same sex until now even in persona 5 strikers, I do believe some characters have the context that would make sense for them to be lgbt like yosuke or teddy
... Or we COULD just have a game that isn't about gender identities and who you want to bang in place of an enjoyable plot and likeable characters.
It's a wild theory I know.
When persona 6 comes out i will hang myself instantaneously if anything of the sort happened
I definitely think a truly LGBTQ+/trans party member would be very fun to see.
As a relative newcomer to Persona & SMT in general, I genuinely did not think Naoto was trans; the game said that she was female and I just thought "alright," and proceeded to bust my ass to max out her Social Link.
I didn’t even realize people argued it that the Twitter guy is the first one
It is a very old twitter drama
There's also the fact that she comes from a family of great detectives, all of which were male. Which further pushed her to presenting herself as a man to others.
Wasn't her mother a detective too? Naoto told that they both were detectives.
@@HellNutcase Was she? It's been quite a long while. I don't remember that.
@@HellNutcase Considering the Megaten series as a whole has abit of a long-running theme of detectives that come from a family of them, most likely thats what it is. Its been awhile since I played P4 myself but since we have the Kuzunoha Detective Agency be brought up in Devil Summoner and of course in Persona 2, more than likely Naoto's mother being a former detective and her wanting to carry that on is a nod to this theme in the series.
Naoto's mother was a detective along her husband. Naoto says this during her persona awakening after fighting Shadow Naoto, if you want to rewatch it :)
It's funny you brought up kanji as you were talking about this since I immediately thought of people thinking kanji is gay. He just was interested and like doing certain things that usually fit the gender role of a women in the eyes of society but was afraid to show it off and wanted to hide it as much as he could. Stuff like this tends to really effect kids as they go through school since if you were a boy that showed any interest in liking anything that was looked as feminine you would be made fun of a lot. I remember being a kid and being embarrassed to admit I liked sailor moon since it is seen as a show aimed at girls. I'm pretty sure this happens to females as well with liking some boy stuff growing up.
His character and naotos character are all about how gender and sexuality is not defined by what you like , rather than for what you are , I great to see it because same I love sailor moon as a kid even still do , that doesn’t make me or you less man than literally everyone else
@@carriebrute3627 Honestly I don't think Sexuality has anything to do with it. Kanji was about liking feminine hobbies despite his image, and longing to be accepted, Naoto was about discrimination in the workforce. I feel both of them, rather than being gay or trans, was more about being accepted for who they are, accepting themselves and learning to love who they are.
@@27Bayleefs i mean kanji’s chapter literally has his shadow version calling him a queer , he’s at least bisexual but i was talking more about how despite their appearances they both can enjoy whatever they like without a stupid repercussions of “that’s for girls” or “that’s for boys”
@@carriebrute3627 See the shadows are just extreme personifications of a persons emotions. It doesn't act that way because that's who he is, but because that is how he as well as others see him. Kanji himself realizes this by saying "It's not a matter of guys or chicks, I'm just scared shitless of being rejected" so No it has nothing to do with actual sexuality. The shadow was more so meant to symbolize people mocking him for his hobbies and how he has more feminine interests. also the shadow didn't call him a queer, he was stating what others have called him and said about him.
@@27Bayleefs well true the shadow is an exaggerated version of the character but still the point is not getting refuted because kanji in his context as a character can be bisexual that’s why you can interprétate his “not about chicks or guys”
i always disagreed with the idea of naoto being trans due to the fact that shadows do not represent the true self. the main party shadows in persona 4 consistently are used to present an extreme solution to an underlying problem that the individual is experiencing. yukiko despises that she is being pushed into the role of future owner of the amagi inn yet she feels she can't do anything so her shadow is a princess in a castle begging for her knight to save her, kanji has a warped view of what it means to be a man and holds alot of resentment to the girls that mocked him for having feminine hobbies so his shadow is a gay man in a sauna, rise feels as she is disconnected to who she truly is as a person so her shadow embraces the most depraved aspects of being a celebrity in a strip club in order for people to notice her. all the main party shadows exemplify the most extreme solutions to their personal turmoil, so why wouldn't naoto's? naoto's whole arc is coming to the realization that just because she isn't what she invisions as the stereotypical detective it doesn't mean she isn't a competent detective. she learns to accept herself as both a woman and a detective.
I've come to more or less realize that Kanji wasn't a guy metaphor and Naoto wasn't a Trans metaphor early on, though I wasn't sure at first why. It really didn't click as it should, I felt like, and I am fairly non-traditional myself.
Then I caught on what bothered me while thinking why people tended to tout as proof, their Shadows. What people forget is that Shadows aren't what you REALLY are, but what you are AFRAID about yourself, and that is different, cause that image is actually WARPED.
Kanji's Shadow doesn't really reveal him as gay, just as Chie's doesn't show her into BDSM or Rise as an attention whore. It revealed his insecurity over the possibility of being gay, and him accepting that side is accepting his unusual interests and his feminine interests. Being gay or not is completely separate.
Naoto always was a case of reversed cause and effect. The Shadow wasn't made from an underlying issue she had with her actions, those actions came once her Shadow manifested itself. Being Trans is more than just uncomfortability with your gender, it is a neurological issue that requires a change from assigned gender (neurological is not psychological, the latter means trauma, the former means actual brain structure got bucked up). But her issues appears wholly about her image as a detective, and not about her own happiness. And once that image issue gets cleared, she gives up on trying to pretend to be a man, instead using it to live her life as a Gender Nonconforming Woman. A Trans person wouldn't be happy with simply leaving themselves with the wrong body, whether or not they choose to go through with it.
Honestly, always appreciate people pointing out what actually it is.
I never actually realized the shadows were supposed to be their warped fears and not a distorted image of their repressed thoughts and goddamn this makes way more sense.
@@Sachsuke A lot of Persona's abilities are based on Jung's idea of self. Your shadow is what you are trying to hide from people, but that's not what you truly are. Yosuke for example had his Shadow tell him he wanted his girlfriend to die just so he won't get bored. It's only true in a sense that actually doing something instead of wasting away in boring old town is preferable and his girlfriend being that gave him that needed push, but together, it misses the point. He wants to avenge her, first and foremost, the excitement is simply a symptom of growing depression over being stuck in that place.
Apply same logic to most other characters, realize that Shadows is what will happen if they'll continue to repress their feelings and not address the core issues, and voila, you can explain Mitsuo Kubo.
The thing that angers me the most is that in our modern climate, it sounds like the concept of crossdressing and stuff similar is automatically put as transgender-ism and it's just like they are not the damn same!
No she isn't anyone who thinks she's trans DEEPLY misunderstands what a trans person is. Naoto is just a little gender confused because she's denied her actual gender (female.) In an attempt to fit in with her profession. And that fucked with her head. And it did so precisely BECAUSE she's cis. Probably quite archetypally so underneath all the nuerosis. She's no more trans than Kanji is gay. And yes he ISN'T what he is is remarkably open minded and willing to explore himself. Might surprise some people to learn that homosexual fooling around is quite common even in those who end up figuring out they're straight. It's completely natural to move out of your comfort zone when you're still feeling out what you are. Of course she's going to keep being rather masculine it's a habit by now. But what no one wants to hear is that Naoto Shiragane was a run of the mill heterosexual female who's hang-up's just happened to revolve around her gender.
And I really don't like people who say you make her 'weaker' by being more feminine. If it wasn't for the sexism she faced she never would have started trying to be masculine. She IS naturally feminine. And the suggestion that being that is somehow showing weakness is SHOCKINGLY sexist. And flies in the face of her story arc. In fact It would be closer to call her a reverse trans. Her problem isn't caused by being biologically female. It's caused by trying to act male when she's not. And how it makes her live a lie. Naoto may not serve as a bastion of trans inclusion in jrpg's But she does serve as a very welcome character in a game that's about accepting yourself for who you are, warts and all.
The “feminine = weakness” stuff especially floored me because in addition to being that kind of faux wokeness you expect from the toxic side of the discourse because even though she’s not a literal trans man in the text, the game still supports the idea that gender essentialism is bullshit because even after revealing her sex, she continues to have a masculine gender presentation while becoming more comfortable at the idea of openly expressing her identity as a woman. Even in the spin-off novels the only thing that changes is that she has longer hair. It is ironically very sexist and even transphobic to assume that it’s impossible for women can’t be masculine or likewise with men and femininity, and that’s just in terms of the gender binary! Personally in terms of my headcanons, I think Naoto might he non-binary but honestly that’s just me and unlike a good chunk of the fandom I don’t consider it gospel and then proceed to be an asshole about it
As someone of the LGBT Community, it's so dumb that some people are trying to turn a character who clearly isn't trans into one cannonically because it's basically like telling someone trans to be their sex, except UNO reverse for this situation. Either way it's messed up trying to turn something or someone meant as one thing into another thing. Because Naoto's story is still a good story for women going through Naoto's situation of some sort. If ever needed Atlus can always make a Trans Male someday in a new Persona/Atlus IP
@Yam Zeita
although atlus has written a homosexual character before and he was written well
and even allowed you to have a gay relationship with him
and that was released in the 90's
Yeah I always thought the game was pretty clear with its message for Naoto, always just kinda assumed thos people didn’t play the game or finish her link.
You'll find alot of the time its people not actually playing the games, finishing the links or they've just read the wikis or only seen other's opinions on it. If more people genuinely put in the work to find out for themselves, instead of only relying on others for the information, things would probably be alot more smoother.
@@GinraiPrime666 ikr
I don't know much about Persona but I have seen something just like this I remember on a post on a fan page I follow people were trying to claim that Mulan was objectively a trans character completely misunderstanding the plot of her film and character and being incredibly vile and toxic to anyone who disagrees. There's NOTHING wrong with trans characters like Snake said if you think there is kindly piss off but just don't project that onto characters that aren't and then start being vile when you're corrected
I have seen a some characters be called trans with the smallest bits of 'evidences' like Buttercup from PowerPuff Girls for being a tomboy, or Danny Phantom for reason that are taken super out of contexts. Personally I don't care if someone is trans or not as long as there decent characters.
I'm reminded of when Brianna Wu argued that Samus Aran is trans and said "If we don't get representation then we'll just take it" or something along those lines. I'm paraphrasing.
It's really sad when you see someone who's very clearly a total Narcissist who projects their identity onto other characters because they refuse to imagine a world that they're not apart of. They have to demand and assert that a character they had no hand in creating is essentially them in every way, shape, and form and when countered with evidence to the contrary they'll just resort to calling you some kind of ist or a phobe.
It's far easier for a narcissist to imagine a world where they're the victim and right about everything than for them to even come close to admitting that they've made a mistake.
Projecting yourself onto characters isn't narcissistic at all! It's a common method people use to relate to others. I think everyone projects themself onto the fictional characters they care about, and if your gender identity is important to you- as is often the case for trans people considering how much shit they have to go through in order to live a normal life- then it makes sense to project that part of your identity onto characters you like and/or can relate to. The narcissistic part would be acting as if your projections were a reality and that everybody else must perceive those characters the exact same way you perceive them.
@@actualgoblin There's a difference between a narcissist projecting their identity onto a character and someone sympathizing enough with a character to see some of themselves in them.
A projection isn't "putting yourself in the character's shoes" it's when you assume their worldview, opinions, and beliefs are the same as your own.
Projection is a narcissistic thing to do because it's you forcing your beliefs onto a fictional character you may have some passing resemblance or understanding of and assuming this to be true and accurate to the story.
They will also get offended when countered with evidence to the contrary because to them you're not criticizing their interpretation of the story, you're criticizing them. And when you project yourself onto said character with something as sensitive as your gender identity then it's very easy for them to mentally justify calling any who disagree with them a bigot.
It's not about placing yourself into the fictional world through a character that you like, it's about them taking a character, claiming it to be "literally them" and attacking anyone who disagrees with accusations of bigotry and getting a plethora of other narcissists to agree with them.
Or a plethora of people unfamiliar with the source material to rally behind them under the guise of trans rights or something along those lines.
A similar thing happens for Pucci in Jojo's Bizarre Adventure and another youtuber named Hamon Beat gets lambasted for pointing out, very correctly, that Pucci isn't black. He's olive skinned by the creator's admission and is Cillian Italian. But people who look at the character's dark skin, assume he is black, ignore established lore and continuity, get other people who ignore or don't know about established continuity to call anyone who points out his actual ethnicity a racist.
It all comes down to this modern obsession with representation in media. People don't want to be told stories about interesting characters.
They want to see stories where *they* are the main character and that is very narcissistic. The complete inability to relate to someone who is not you.
@@CobaltTheCrusader It's clearly not about "being unable to relate to characters who are different from you" when most of the people who shame others for disagreeing with these headcanons *don't belong to those minority groups to begin with.*
@@actualgoblin I don't have to *Belong to the minority to disagree with their opinion on a character* The simple truth is that Naoto is a woman, who identifies as a woman and even admits she is a woman. Her arc was NEVER about LGBT issues neither was Kanji. Both of their arcs were about acceptance of who they are, Kanji accepting he enjoys feminine hobbies, and Naoto realizing she don't need to act like a man to be a great detective. Both also offered insight on certain aspects in Japan like the male dominated work force and so on You identify with her cool. You feel sympathy for her and relate to her cool. But I draw the line at the self entitled asses going around telling people How Naoto or Kanji should have been.
@@27Bayleefs I agree 100%, I even made a comment earlier about how people misinterpret naoto's character arc and in kanji's case, ignore the fact that his sexuality was intentionally left ambiguous because it's not actually relevant to his character arc. You... didn't think I was trying to argue otherwise did you?
edit: made a typo desu
Let's not forget that Naoto literally put on a girls school uniform in the Christmas date with the protagonist and it ends up being and equipable item in Golden. Thanks for making this video, 4th Snake. Now if only Resetera gets the hint.
I'll be honest, I used to think Naoto was trans and Kanji was gay when I was younger. But, really didn't think about it until way later that the information at hand didn't support any of that. And I was the asshole for pointing that out apparently.
Great video. Hope you don't get railed to hard on this spicy one.
As a trans woman coming out recently, I have to agree with you on this. I think people should read the scene before making assumptions. I think that was the point of Persona 4 in general.
Glad someone finally said it
sad that this shit even has to be said
Weirdly enough, I got the impression that Naoto was the Sailor Uranus of the group.
They take their duties seriously, probably to the point of putting it above their own health and social bonds.
There's an air of mystery around them, and to some degree (one more than the other), and they both tend to be somewhat serious with a bit of goofiness thrown in when they can relax. I think they also share something of a strategist role for their group as well, though Haruka is more of a warrior.
Haruka is pretty self-assured with both her masculine and feminine qualities, however.
They also have a similar color scheme with the blue and yellow, but that's completely superficial.
The themes around them are different, certainly, but Naoto definitely could have used a "big sister" to help her with her problems.
Fiction is srys bznis. You know how it is sometimes.
....And now, I think might brain up a Persona/Sailor Moon crossfic. Thanks, Snake. 🤣
And on Yosuke...
I know a lot of people don't like Yosuke for how he treats Kanji in the beginning, but considering the cut content, I think Yosuke could have been for the people who project but end up realizing "o shit it me" when they do some self-reflection--if they ever get to that point.
I wish the rabbid fans weren't so hostile about that being reflected in fiction, because that happens all the time in real life.
Once again, you make a good valid video.
Let’s hope people will learn from this.
Ngl. Video just got posted in a group chat I’m in and I came in with my own assumptions of what it’s about and came here with the intent of talking about the game nearly telling you outright she isn’t trans, and then I actually watched the video. Didn’t even think about the viewpoint you said your friend shared, or why Kanji and Naoto make a cute couple.
Goes to show how things can progress when people actually listen. Got a sub outta me.
I love how the game is about searching for the truth, yet people bend this truth for it to mean what they want
Exactly. Nato says it herself when you complete her Social Link. She is a Woman. A Woman Detective.
"Why are you booing me? I'm right" - 4th Snake Probably
Naoto identifies as female. I don’t understand how people can talk about identity and ignore that she says she is a woman.
Can this common misconception also be chalked up to the meme of there being tons of Persona fans who haven't actually played the games themselves?
Yes.
Yes
if im a fan of soethin and i havent played it yet i dont really talk about it until i play/watch it, but i am currently playing persona and say that ppl that say they are fans but havent got much information, should atleast try to confirm their accuation, anyone actually, even ppl who have played
I love when You said “Fuck Off”
Naoto shot her finger gun
The thing when talking about Naoto, as well as similar characters like Chihiro from Danganronpa, is that the argument for them being trans (And the writing being transphobic) assumes they have gender dysphoria, but that assumption is flawed because there are other reasons someone might choose not to present as their biological sex. Yes, trans people aren't just crossdressers, but people who _are_ "just crossdressers" also exist; Based on the actual canon text, Naoto seems to be one such person, and there's nothing wrong with that.
I like how people will look at a media trying to talk about one sensitive message then instantly slap their belief on it making the people it's meant to reach out toward feel like their jumping to conclusions then not act on future moments of possible relatability in the fear their wrong.
Like admittedly it’s obvious to see why Naoto is particularly popular for trans mascs (speaking as someone who is GNC myself [update: I recently came out as non-binary (and ironically Naoto might have been a small part of that journey) since this comment was written either way I at least have a seat at this particular table]) in, since representation in that group is very scarce and I don’t want to take that away from them. But like a lot of these young people also need to understand that you can disagree with somebody’s head canon and not accuse them of being insert-ist or -phobic of choice here (trust me, I’m a bisexual, debating the sexualities of certain WLW characters can be a bit of a nightmare sometimes in these spaces since comphet is a thing, and I do acknowledge it’s common with lesbians but sometimes you can get accused of lesbian or bi erasure if you “say the wrong things”)
To me Naoto was never a problem, I actually liked how she came to accept herself, it was one best moments in the game, this is how real life should work learn to accept ourselves and we'd be much better 😇
Reach out to the truth, unless my headcanon is better.
How does this guy not have more likes
Naoto Identifies As Female - Nuff Said as Astolfo Identifies As A Male because dressing up as a girl is cute for him.
1:31 Literally The Character herself said this but people are so caught up in agendas sometimes I swear their brain ceases to work🤦🏾♂️
There’s no agenda it’s literally a fictional character that some people(who probably never played the game) misinterpreted
You might as well call her
Miss Conception!!!
(Yeah, pelt me tomatoes, I deserved it!)
**a tomato appears like Mr. Cage Nice Neighborhood*
I was hoping a Vibin' Naoto Meme. But got something more deeper. I met her in the P4A/U series, and the vibes she gave to me is "tomboy". Not a trans.
You can do a Alternate Take of The BlazBlue Series. It was so good the first Three Phases, but it went damn low in CentralFiction. Why? Because his creator said "No couples for you". And the other gripe, is the equivalent of D'Vorah called Mai Natsume. tl;dr: A fuckin' Mary Sue!
Awesome video. Can't believe we still have to have this conversation when it's CLEARLY stated in the games story and social links.
It just goes to show that people refuse to listen to all points of view and from all angles, which is a shame.
My main reasoning for Kanji being Bi is he had a crush on Naoto while he thought she was a guy. He felt relief when he realized she was a girl, and that is because the "gay" part of his shadow he couldn't accept was still part of him. None of the characters work through their problems until social link 10, so he wouls still have the internalized homophobia and feel relief learning Naoto is female.
Let me put it this way, if Kanji wasn't into guys at least a bit, he wouldn't have had a crush on a person he 100% perceived as a male.
As far as transition regret: people don't like talking about it because it gives fuel for transphobes and is very often portrayed as a large percentage of people who transition, when it's closer to 1~5% (and even that stat doesn't account for people who detransition because of a lack of acceptance in their community/family)
in person Q he said he always knew that Naoto is a woman
In any case, he likes tomboys
@@samuelisaacdelacruzaguiler2489saying he always knew Naoto was a woman is just a retcon though. A pretty bad one at that.
@@JesterQueenAnne 🤷♂️ it's canon
Atlus simply wants to make it clear that Kanji is not gay and Naoto is not trans
With kanji I think he's bisexual, Because he likes naoto before he finds out shes a girl. And still likes her after he founds out
i see him as bi mostly because he was into naoto before it was revealed she was a girl. at least that’s how it seemed to me. i definitely wouldnt get mad at anybody for disagreeing though. and yeah, naoto isnt trans, i agree
(he refers to kanji, obviously)
back then i never understood the trans headcanon since, y'know she clearly stated herself she was a woman, but i now realize i kinda relate to some of her experiences in wanting to be seen as male. soo yeah trans headcanons are cool but ugh i hate when people wanna harass others with their opinions and state that shes canonically trans.
I may have thought Kanji was gay at first (definitely not anymore), but I never thought Naoto was trans. The shadows were the person's insecurities heightened, so her shadow being that way makes sense. It may be because I have seen this archetype multiple times (Mulan and Faris), but it didn't seem that hard to understand for me
Great and insightful video like always.
I'm not experienced enough to add anything into the conversation but I can admit that when I first played through the P4 story, I never prejudged any of the characters. Them being teenagers, not yet knowing what they want to be and the struggles to learn what that is, just felt normal.
Game Grumps went on a giant soapbox rant about Chihiro being trans during their Danganronpa playthrough
Even though he as a character just wants to be a man and his entire character arc is him finally taking steps
to better himself into the image of the man he truly desired to be
Chihiro was always a man in the first place so the entire rant both felt really shallow and was also horribly misinformed x3
You're alright on my book, Snake. People are people and they're free to choose what they wanna be as long as they accept themselves the way they are without thinking too much about others' enforced opinions.
LGBTQ community: respect all sexuality and genders!
Naoto:I’m a woman
Also LGBTQ: NO TF YOU’RE NOT
🤣
Like the LGBT Respect Straight people
You're cooking up a storm here Snake
I’m honestly relieved you mentioned the headcanon aspect of this in your video due to it sometimes feeling like most ppl disregard that part of the fandom and how it’s all in good fun. I’ve seen WAY too many ppl bully others for headcanons that were in good fun cuz it goes against the text and vice versa. It’s honestly great you said it’s just how some ppl want to have fun in the world of the game/movie/comic etc.
As long as they don't try to force their headcanons on others or get mad at people for not feeling the same way, it's all good.
@@The4thSnake EXACTLY
A.B.I. can sleep well, because now he doesn't need to "stick his hand into this hornet's nest".
What do you mean?
@@harlannguyen4048 in the video about Yukiko he mentioned he doesn't wanna talk about Kanji or Naoto. 4th Snake had more courage it seems.
Can you blame him though?
@@The4thSnake not at all
Fantastic take. Gender non-conformity and straying from gender expectations does not automatically make someone trans. I find it frustrating when people can’t separate the two, especially since I myself am cis and female but gender non-conforming in certain ways (deeper voice, for example). Tbh I think a lot of people that argue she’s trans are projecting how they feel about their own gender onto her. Which, like you said, is fine for headcanons and fanworks, but it still defies canon and misses the point of her arc.
I haven't play the game yet but I knew about Naoto's situation, so it's always weird to see people referring to Naoto as trans.
Like it's alright to like a character for what they are you don't need to force them to be something they're not.
2:23 so THEY are the Midnight Channel IRL!
XD
It seems like to me that some people do not understand the type of writing that is done at Atlas for the Persona series. While sometimes the story is kooky and doesn't make sense but when writing about that characters they always focus on WHO they are not WHAT they are. One of the reasons why Kanji and Naoto are loved and respected is because they were written to be people despite their sexuality and gender issues.
Shout out to the people who completely undermine Naoto's character arc by calling her trans when she explicitly says she doesn't want to be a dude AFTER YOU COMPLETE HER DUNGEON IN BOTH THE ANIME AND GAME
Like the only way you can believe Naotonis trans is if you spent 1 minute on her Wikipedia page and haven't actually seen or played Persona 4.
I thought it was plainly obvious Naoto was just a girl trying to hide her gender to better fit in with her workforce.
How does one stretch this far?
I am not trying to hate on the idea and say she ABSOLUTELY should not.
I just don't know how someone thinks this.
Great video again, keep up the solid content and making me pepelaugh.
When I first saw Naoto I thought that she was a girl. And then everybody was calling her 'he' & 'him', & I was pulling my hair out saying 'That's not a "he"'. Then came the big reveal & I was like 'Yeah, I know.' I couldn't believe that the game tried to sell me on that narrative for so long & yet some people interpreted it as a message for trans? And they get all butthurt if you don't see her that way? I thought the Persona fanbase was a good one but once 5 hit store shelves it just got shitter & shitter. (I never did Naoto's SL because of stats but I did want to, at least)
it's more her english voice actress was doing a very bad job not sounding like a girl when doing her " boy." voice.
I mean this is anime, there are plenty of male characters who just happen to look and or sound like girls and Naoto is considered a masculine name apparently, so I don’t think it really would’ve mattered if you already knew or not.
"Trans" can be considered as an umbrella term, but when it comes down to it I consider Naoto to be gender non-conforming. I think that extends a bit beyond just workplace discrimination and perhaps into some body dysphoria and general discomfort with feminine expression, but without reading between the lines she has identified throughout the games as a woman. There are people who are women who only feel comfortable expressing themselves as masculine. I have a friend who is similar to Naoto in that they bind their chest and they only are comfortable expressing themselves as masculine, but they identify themselves generally as a woman, and sometimes prefers different pronouns. I personally think Naoto is a better representation of woman like her than trans man or trans Non-Binary.
TBH it's a bit exhausting for people to argue so vehemetly that she definitely is trans or definitely isn't trans by people who has no background in the community or knowledge behind the writing beyond armchair analysis. It's not necessarily a bad thing to have varying interpretations of a character or get different things out of them and respect that other people may be differently. The discord around this topic is so bad it's hard to have a meaningful discussion about Naoto's gender and why people have different views on it.
I do agree that we should respect how people identify as in terms of gender. Forcing someone who is a masculine woman to identify as a man when they don't want to is as bad as misgendering a trans woman as a man. I respect that it sounds like you consulted trans people on their perspective.
ATLUS could have handled Naoto and these situations a lot better. Some things feel like trans or gay baiting. but until they do all we have to go on is what we have.
2:09 not to mention Q2 confirms Kanji knew Naoto was female
I always will jump headfirst to defend when someone misgender a Trans character (tho admitelly there aren't many out there)
Therefore, I will ALSO jump headfirst to defend when someone misgender a Cis character as being trans
Naoto is one of the two i activelly really like as a character, so I get kinda angry at people misrepresenting her
But anyway, i'll send this video to them in case.
Snake you’re a brave man. Thank you for this
I'm actually glad I found this video before getting to that point in the game. After this video, Naoto really reminds me of Mulan. The old one, not the new one.
Naoto is supposed to say 'there is power in being female', and her whole 'i wish i was male' is her thinking the only way to have any power is to be male. Hell, i wish i was male so i won;t have to deal with the shit naoto deals with.
We're allowed to have our head cannons, like i personally view yukiko and chie being into eachother. But if someone thinks that those two are straight as poles i'm not going to call them a homophobe, because thats fucking stupid.
enby here, everything you said was completely correct.
As someone who is also a trans woman like your friend. Yeah no this character is not written at all like she’s meant to be trans and her problems aren’t anything related to typical problems someone that’s trans would have. Good video btw I never got into the Persona games tho lol
I thought that it was pretty obvious that the whole thing with naoto is that she pretended to be a boy because being a detective was very male dominant. I haven’t even played the game and I know this. People who are obsessed with this need to think again.
I actually never knew Stephanie Brownback was trans.
Honestly I think you're right about it being important to address people who think they need to transition to be happy when it's probably not the best thing for them
I don't know if this is getting worse or I'm just seeing more of it lately but people will refer to someone as an egg ((AKA a trans person who doesn't realize they're trans yet))
for having feminine Hobbies or behavior or even just choosing to play girls in a video game
When the truth is sometimes sometimes people aren't strictly masculine or feminine
For Kanji in my opinion part of his "theme" is to not put people into boxes, cause like you said, there is enough information to take from his arc many different things, straight but still confused, to gay, to bi. Kanji is one of the best characters with with varied likes and dislikes across the male-female spectrum, that its kind of an insult to try to put him in one. great video. still watching as i write this, also good job bringing more parallels with kanji that i didn't think of, though i personally think she has a bit more towards discrimination in general with closer to equal parts towards age and gender being part of her theme, with her shadow being a toy mech after all. (though looking at the image, the toy being more towards action figure robot than to classical girl dolls might be another possible parallel to kanji that she does still like some boys stuff at the same time).
I think the main problem people have with it is the premise of Naoto’s dungeon and Shadow’s want. It states multiple times it wants to alter or change Naoto’s body and with the doctor’s coat and setting its not at all a huge leap to see this as an analogue for gender reassignment surgery. Once viewed in that light the whole presentation of Naoto’s shadow and it’s objective becomes a lot more problematic, framing something like gender reassignment surgery to be dangerous, life threatening, or just subtlety wrong. Which are all pretty common negative stigmas that the trans community has to deal with very often to say the least. I don’t necessarily think this was intentional on the part of the game designers, if anything I think it’s more reflective of the general attitude and perception of the trans community in Japan making its way into the game just as a matter of where the game comes from. This doesn’t however excuse or change the fact that this part of the game has some transphobic undertones that merit discussion I feel. Also to clarify, I’m playing through P4 rn and I love the game. I think it does alot of things right and enjoy it’s game play and dialogue greatly. At the same time though I feel it’s disingenuous to not acknowledge the transphobic and homophobic undertones the game exudes with how it deals with and treats characters like Kanji and Naoto (especially Kanji, poor dude is mocked constantly by the game)
The game is from 2008 and it shows.
I’m curious is this the only interpretation there is of this scene?
Yeah, you can say that Naoto’s backstory has something in common with the trans community, but she ain’t canonically trans.
You saying that Naoto gives you more trans woman vibes than trans man vibes? Reminds me of how I perceive Chihiro from Danganronpa. The fandom really likes to assume he’s a trans woman just because of his looks. But he weirdly gives me more trans man vibes. Like Chihiro’s a feminine looking person that wants to look more like a big strong man. I don’t get how someone can look at that and say Chihiro wants to be a woman.
Yeah, we need to be more aware of de-transitioners. It’s unfortunate how there are fear mongering weirdos trying to take advantage of them to make more transphobic excuses, but they exist & need to be treated well too.
I think there's a huge misunderstanding in how Shadows work in P4 which is strange because no one has this issue with the other games. You cited the Namatame scene, but remember that in that moment he did not know the truth about the Midnight Channel and thought he was responsible for saving everyone while the protagonists had foiled him, so the things that his Shadow says still makes complete sense as thoughts that he is repressing. The Midnight Channel shows what people want to see about another person, and it does this by outing the things that person is hiding from society, NOT by making shit up. And the Shadows are eager to do this even if it kills their Other Self because as Adachi mentions before you fight him they're sick of being repressed and just want to feel free. So they have no need to straight up lie or be misrepresentative about the thoughts and feelings that their Other Self has. They don't function that way in any other Persona games (Persona 2 similarly has Shadows created because people wanted to BELIEVE that the protagonists are evil, yet said Shadows STILL express sentiments pulled from the characters' actual repressed thoughts and feelings), they don't function that way in Jungian psychology, and there's no reason for P4 to be an exception. A stronger argument can be made for Naoto not being trans because her Shadow really does focus on gender discrimination while the surgery is an indicator of just how desperately Naoto wanted to escape it, but Shadow Kanji has no reason for 98% of his symbolism to be around having an attraction to men just because other people think he's gay, nor just because Kanji is questioning whether he's attracted to men, unless there was some truth to it.
Naoto isn't trans but do you know who is?
Me.
just me, that's all. I only say this because it is >NOT< transphobic to say Naoto isn't trans. Actually, Naoto's one of my favorite type of women.
And I always thought Naoto's arc was female empowerment. Sad that goes over people's heads.
Exactly. It's about how Naoto doesn't need to be ashamed of being a woman just because she works with misogynistic people.
if only twitter and reset era were as sane as you.
that tends to be where i see the atlus is homophobic and transphobic bs the most due to kanji and naoto discourse.
Эх, щас бы Наоточку Широгане. Да под хвост бы *её*
Эх, мечты о лучшей девочке всей Persona 4...
Also Kanji was into Naoto when he thought Naoto was a dude
That's one of the biggest reasons why people think he is bi
Great video. Awhile back a youtuber I am subscribed to did an LP of P4G and that was my first exposure to Persona in general, and they had similar views on Naoto (the way they described them were, er, less coarse than yours, but the end point was still the same). I also think that Naoto and Kanji are a cute couple as well.
It is also sad and scary that there are people in the world who try to force people to be a certain way, regardless if the victim is a real person or a fictional character. Nice to see you saying something that should really put certain shitheads in their place. Good on you my dude.
Short answer: No.
Long answer: Hell no. To the no no no.
We were robbed of Yosuke being gay 😔😔😔
Yosgay
Genuinely glad you brought this topic up in a video. This has been a pretty common misconception for about as long as P4 has been around.
Honestly, I'm not a big fan Man Love Man stories but I feel like Yosuke originally being a love interest would of been great for persona to introduced another gay character option.
Yeah I know Persona 2 had a gay character that the MC can flirt with. But back to my point I feel Yosuke and Yu friendship to romance would felt more believable and not forced. Even the anime they had moments of actually being closed friends. Especially when Nanako almost died, Yosuke let Yu cried on his shoulder. Like wow that moment was deep as hell, I'm thankful for the anime to add scenes like that.
Isn't the new rule that you only have to identify as the opposite sex to be considered trans?
Naoto is a character I heavily relate to, and it flat out disgusts me when people say that her not being trans is a shortcoming on Atlus' part, and then lash out when someone disagrees.
A lot of my life experiences run parallel to hers, but from an effeminate male's perspective. I tend to look up to the badass ladies of media more than I do the typical ideological dudebro. I also didn't feel the need to dress up like the majority of my male classmates back in school, as I couldn't see myself fitting with it. I just don't fit a lot of male norms, and occasionally will even don a female persona in order to feel like I belong in communities. But at the end of the day, despite all that, I am male first and foremost. That's what I've accepted.
If people want to headcanon Naoto being trans, fine. I've even accepted people can ship Naoto x Kanji as much as they want, despite it being in my honest opinion an excuse to give us yet another Beauty and the Beast stereotype that feels shallow when the games simply flirt with the idea without giving it much in the way of actual substance beyond concept. Still, as long as people don't attack people for it, they can do whatever.
These are the same people saying that Kanji is gay because of his shadow. What they don’t realize is that the shadows aren’t actually their own feelings, but rather an exaggerated persona of their insecurities. In Kanji’s case, it was his enjoyment of hobbies that society would deem “feminine.” For Naoto, it was that she thought that, if she were born male, she would be taken seriously in the workplace, so she dressed up as and presented as male. These people always seem to conveniently forget about Rise’s shadow. Given the logic they operate on, Rise would be… well… ugh.
I feel like people are taking the Shadows aspect of Persona 5 and just applying it anywhere they wish, in this case, Persona 4. Where the Shadows in that game ARE their true feelings and wants, but Persona 4 makes it crystal clear what the Shadows in their game represent.
It's common for people to completely rewrite characters with out understanding the orginal context of said character. Hell people will re-write characters with no base understanding of who the character originally was, slander the original creator for not having written the character in the same way, and then get a million dollar contract with a streaming service with a three season series not in that order.
What I'm trying to say here is yes Snake you are right, but the problem is that these characters are fiction and under a constant "subject to change to fit a more modern narrative role." Even Ken Akamatsu has gone out to say the influence that foreign audiences are pushing for atm are starting to worry him
Definitely see your point and good luck because I know how spicy the topic is.
I think it's funny that there is a character in the danganronpa series that goes through this exact same thing that characters name is chihiro fugisaki he is a man end of story.
Agree. Chihiro is definitely not trans
I've played the game some years ago and I didn't understood well half of naoto's story (maybe 'cause in that moment I had no English level to read more than a few dialogue lines and use the google traductor) so... Thanks, now I understand it.
Can't believe people are being stupid on such simple topic like this.
Good vid my man!
While I agree that Naoto's story was meant to be about sexism, I think reading themes of struggles with one's gender identity is not far fetched and it's a valid reading. Same for Kanji, his story is mainly about toxic masculinity and biases about expectations of what being manly is, but his atraction to what at the time people thought was a boy and his much more sex focused shadow makes me think he does struggle with some atraction to men. He's probably a female focused bisexual, more atracted to women than men.
I'm glad you mentioned Josuke's deleted content, it wasn't included even in Golden so I think we can consider it not canon and like a discarded idea from the creator, but him being bi just makes sense to me. Overall, Persona 4 in general seems to be dripping with a lot of subtext about human sexuality.
I have to wonder if Adachi’s Rank 8 in Golden was either written to acknowledge these idiots’ inability to read between the lines and projecting their idea of the person onto said individual while ignoring everything else that doesn’t fit their character despite the contradictions being more on their end than the other person. Particularly with a fictional character.
We can write a sympathetic story about Scourge the Hedgehog but a writer who knows the character could also write a Mad Love type story out of him because of the source material that paints a character as a sociopathic manipulative edgelord punk that likely gaslight Fiona into who she is now since her character shift was a complete 180. We can write a heroic Goro Akechi story but we could also write a more game faithful pre-Third Semester Akechi who didn’t have an issue murdering the parents of two of his “colleagues” just to get close to his goals and being a fraud in general.
I think that the game makes it very clear that she is not.
i googled it because i just started p4g and knew naoto's story (some of it) ngl
Christ this is one way to start of persona month should have started off with something lighter like Komashoda or something
My rule for trans if character x is in a island all by there self what would they identify as.
Im aware that naoto isnt canonically trans however her story did help me accept i was trans so i get both sides so let me say naoto is bestgirl i do think alot of people likley argue so deeply for it cus it helped them the way it helped me and yeah i projected stuff on her at the time. But the story is clearly showing shes not a transman
That's great to hear. Just because the character isn't trans doesn't mean that it can't hold meaning for someone who is. The amazing thing about a good story is being able to self reflect on it. I'm glad you were able to understand yourself better from this story.
I'll say this i def agree with you, but there are still kinda transphobic lines inside of Naotos dungeon, as one of the lines implies trans people can't exist/don't exist, but it's a single line, i still only use they to describe Naoto personally cuz of stupid hot spring scene showing some form of uncomfortablility but that uncomfortablness may of just been embarssment i just wish the scene didn't exist like that cuz it gets muddled and confusing.
It’s the same shit they do with Chihiro in Trigger Happy Havoc
And when you think about it it’s the same issue they’re trying to address. Japan’s great issue with gender roles. One is a guy who has always been seen/seen himself as weak, so he adopted dressing up and presenting as a girl to avoid the weight of societal expectations for a boy.
The other is a girl who wants to get past the hardships her gender encounters in the field of work of her choice and thus presents as a guy to do so
Both of these cases show the extremes Japan’s gender issues push people.
I mean sure, western audiences (especially american) will always project their own issues onto these characters but that doesn’t mean that these works acknowledging the reality of these characters makes it transphobic. A take I see too often on twitter and that makes me realize these people just make up their minds and close themselves up in a bubble.
Im glad you made this video, very tastefully too
I don’t often see myself changing views that easily but now I agree that Naoto isn’t trans. This was a good video
Thank you for giving me a chance to explain.