Ludwig Fab Face Off featuring Bun E. Carlos
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- Опубліковано 11 вер 2020
- Ludwig Drums takes you on a fascinating sonic journey where we compare our drums of yesteryear to its modern iteration in our Legacy Mahogany series. Ludwig Manager of Marketing and Artist Relations, Uli Salazar, is joined by legendary drummer Bun E. Carlos and renowned engineer/producer Steve Albini at the famed Electrical Audio recording studio in Chicago, IL. Experience a never before seen performance analysis of our most prestigious drums!!
Bun E Carlos. Pure class. Never puts a foot, or a stick wrong.
Looks like this guy has exceptional control over the sticks. Pure class.
What an epic cast for this Ludwig promo
I can watch Bun E all day long!
Everyone that loves Ludwig drums loves Bun E Carlos too
“On the drums, Mr Bun E Carlos”
Cheap Trick was my first band in late 70's. Rock on Bun-
Miss ya Bun.....looking great!
I love that Bun didn't play the cymbals a bunch. Almost every demo of a kit on youtube has the drummer bashing the cymbals the entire time and you can't hear the drums sing. Or, they over play a snare that isn't really part of the demo.
Bun E swings, & thats what makes him Great !
It's sad that Bun isn't with Cheap Trick any more.
@Rob Torres lmao
@Rob Torres Yeah Cheap Trick's sound really evolved after the guitar player's son took over....oh wait.
Bun at Electrical Audio with Steve at the knobs...very cool!
Man, I love both kits, and who better to do this than Bun E. Carlos!! The newer kit sounds more open and resonant to my ears. Mid to higher tunings are the sweet spot for both in my opinion! Great video guys!
Bun E. knows his Ludwigs!
Bun E Carlos is THE MAN when it comes to all things Ludwig. I'd like to have the money worth of tuning lugs that guy has in collection, let alone drums!
Perfect union... Ludwig & Bun E Carlos
Full Stop!!!
Bun looks and sounds great ! Ahlow Kiddies groove : )" Whatcha gonna when your heads exploding"?
I remember when I first started playing in bands, thinking "I have to be a Neil Peart" or the like, but when I started watching and listening to Bun E- something clicked. He just looked so cool back there, keeping time, playing as part of the band, I thought "No, I wanna be like Bun E".
So much great information in this video! Thank you Bun E and Uli.
I’ve been waiting sooo long for this video. Love it. Both kits sound great and have such similar characteristics that you want in a ludwig 3 ply kit.
What an amazing video.... thank you guys!!!
That’s the real sound on drums ❤️👏
Bun E Carlos is the reason I got into drumming, still being my favorite. Cheap Trick is why I got into Rock N Roll.
Yup, me too. I’ll never forget being a young teen and meeting him. It was at that show that totally influenced my decision to become a rock drummer.
Can you confirm if the Legacy kit in this video was sold to Vic’s drum shop afterwards? If so, I believe I now own it.
I loved it...... Thanks and Blessings!
Surprisingly, I like the sound of the mahogany kit. I never expected anything to sound better than my memory of classic maple Ludwigs.
Nice job Uli! This puts into words what you are hearing. Makes everybody more educated about the drum sound. Thanks!
Thank Mike! Much appreciated!
You put into words what I was feeling! Yes, and more educated! Yes, thank you LudwigDrumsHQ!
Thank you Ludwig and Bun E. Carlos, great stuff
Trying to wrap my brain around how you got Steve Albini for this. If you want a drum to sound great you get Steve Albini.
I think Steve is into drums as much as Bun. Steve is known for his drum sound and Bun has spent a ton of time in the studio. Then its about the Chicago thing...and lastly, Ludi picked up the cost!
it’s Steve’s studio, he owns it.
Adam Stachelek He runs a professional studio and Ludwig paid for Steve’s time. ;)
Great very informative ! I liked them both in the mid range tuning.
Rockin', Bun E. Those kits sounded fantastic, too.
Bun E. Carlos = One of a kind
This is all kinds of great!
Great to see your face. Great to hear ya play. Love ya, Man.
Bun, it’s great to see you still at it. From the guy who forgot the bass drum.
Sounds like a fellow roadie/tech who had more beer than sense.
Very well done and recorded. Very informative and great playing from Bun E. and explanations from Uli and Bun.. Educates a lot about drum sound and "drums under studio mikes" reactions. Also good analysis in the overall '60s "soft" play on the heads vs later "harder/louder" play. On choice side, I guess I would go for the current production Legacy blue kit ..
A classic sound and look!
Bun E. is the ultimate Ludwig historian. I totally agree when he said the older drums sound better tuned higher. My 66" blue sparkle kit sings when tuned medium high, which is why the 9x13 works better on the older Ludwigs than an 8x12.
I agree. I have a '68 Blue Sparkle kit and a '63/'67 Oyster Blue Pearl kit and the 9x13 sounds amazing on both when tuned higher than I would normally tune a modern kit. It has lots of tone and cuts through. You can hear it on my channel :)
Bun can play! awesome drums even better playing!
Elo Kiddies is a fun beat to play.
the vintage kit sounds waaay better, especially at the high tuning. so much more character
Great Drums.
Really enjoyable video
ELO Kiddies! 👋
thanks for sharing. as always. reminds one of the old "Bun in a Box" cd. cheers
i like them both
Bun grooves his ass off
Very Cool stuff.
Tantos Snare y yo necesitando uno para terminar de completar mi drum set ...asi es la vida.. Mr Bun es una inspiracíon para muchos..Dios los bendiga..
They use Bun to calibrate metronomes.
Next 'face off' would be great -Ludwig Legacy Maple kits.
That bronze and black kit is sick
Next face off? Ludwig Legacy Maple vs Ludwig Legacy Mahogany.
Now about Uli Salazar. As an avid vintage Ludwig collector and player myself all through the last 32 years, it looks to me as finally Ludwig folks got the right man into the right place. Spot-on and above all serious stuff.
The man is a legend! Old men and old kits rule!
Bun E is Brilliant I've been tuning my drums individually just like that the kick is identical to the floor tom ,gives the ear illusion of 2 kicks .the secret is out .oooops.
The mahogany used in the 60's was South American and a different species than the African Mahogany used today. Maybe correct me if Ludwig is currently using NOS South American vintage wood but the drums I've played from then and now, suggest a slightly warmer, darker tone with the vintage Mahogany. This applies to old vs. new guitars too. But remarkably similar, all things considered. Absolutely nobody gets a more "real" drum sound than Steve Albini so they definitely picked the right guy to make an honest comparison. Steve is also masterful at tuning drums and it shows. If I wasn't so broke, I'd be buying a new kit right now. :)
Enjoyed this video!
I think that the observations presented by Bun and Uli were very interesting and on the money.
To my ear, the 60s sparkle was a little more focused and 'sweet' sounding - but not by a massive amount. You might not pick the difference in a full mix, but on solo drums I think you can. The Legacy Mahogany kit was a little livelier sounding, and had a broader range of overtones present. A few things that I wonder...
1) The rack tom setup - whenever you're using a snare stand to mount a rack tom (I do it myself), the tension of the basket has a massive impact on the resonance of the drum. Now, I know Bun and Uli don't need to be told that - but it was my first thought upon hearing the notable difference between the two rack toms ... 'I wonder if the basket tension has been tweaked for optimal resonance. The LM basket sounds a little tighter...'
2) Wood 'settles' over the years, and you naturally lose some overtones that used to be there. It's a combination of the wood resonating over the course of decades, coupled with the wood seasoning through variations of temperature, atmospheric humidity, etc. This usually 'tames' some of the dissonant overtones that can sometimes be present in a kit straight out of the box. Even 6-12 months of playing can make a noticeable difference - but certainly 60 years will do so. Also all other things being equal - wood loses weight as it ages, and so you've got two 13x9 drums that weigh different amounts (not to mention the difference in weight of hardware used).
3) The bearing edges. The newer kit will be cleaner and 'sharper' (not talking about the *profile* of the bearing edge here). Over time, bearing edges don't get sharper or cleaner - they tend to move in the opposite direction. If you think about a kit that has dual 45º edges, you get a significant amount more upper range frequencies than a round over bearing edge (for example). The 60s kit (unless they've ben freshly re-cut) will likely have 'softer' edges from general usage.
I think here, we're hearing two kits with a similar construction, same sizes, and a similar overall vibe - separated by wood seasoning, bearing edge variance, (possibly) basket tension, and the overall fact that it's impossible for two acoustic instruments to sound identical.
AAALLLLLLL of that said - thanks so much for the video folks. Its clear that Ludwig, Ali, and the team have put in a bunch of time to get a clear and interesting comparison going. Much appreciated!
Ludwig should start a project where they take the old kits and re edge them and then do a comparison
I wish I could afford a legacy kit, look at his drum collection, wow
Please do Vistalite '70s big beat vs Vistalite Reissue !
In this video the 66 kit resonated more IMO.
Great hihat work 👍
I love high tunings, thin heads and vintage thin Zildjian A's. I still prefer the sound of the older kit. They sound more like drums to me. I guess it's because of my age and era preference. Just a bit more 'organic'. I also look for how the other drums, that aren't being struck, ring along with the rest of the kit. I look at that as the 'chord' of the kit. Different head weights each give their own particular chord of notes, simply due to physics. The Synergy. Minimal micing is also a treat...with a touch of nice compression. Don't get me wrong. The newer Ludwigs would be my choice if I was traveling around. It would have less paranoia, in other words, more replacability if something nasty should happen.
The 60s kit resonates a lot longer than the modern one.
Man I miss seeing you behind a drum kit
A very good discussion and an excellent sound check for drums...NO CYMBALS !!! But I noticed that the snare sounded brighter when he was playing the newer set...so I'm not sure that the EQs were identical with both sets. I probably would lean towards the newer one...but again...it might the eq. But I prefer classic maple anyways. Bun E is the best. I saw them at ChicagoFest when he had the oyster double kick set...and that's the moment I decide I wanted to be drummer. Now my ears ring :)
I own a 68 three piece , it has 45 degree factory bearing edges.
What does Steve Albini know about recording drums?????????? ............
More than most folks out there I suppose. Lol. Enjoyed it.
The new kit sounds a little brighter to my ear.
Great video!
Both kits would be fantastic to own, and I am particularly fond of the tom sound of the 60's drum.
The lug placement is a little lower on those compared to later toms. Not sure if they are lower than the new Legacy shell, but looking at a 9x13 from the 3 ply days, they are lower by a bit.
No doubt that has something to do with the tone and bite that size always seemed to have.
Maybe the re-rings are not the same height measurement ?
I wonder how my '69 kit with the maple inner ply compares?
It’s amazing the difference a bearing edge can make on these drums.
I always loved his Ludwig Budokan kit he used in 78, and then his Ludwig kit he used from 92 thru 96. The Music for Hangovers kit. To me those were his best sounding drum kits.
He used a black diamond pearl Slingerland Radio King on Live at Budokan
@@Drumguy48 Wow I didn't know that kit was a Slingerland drum kit!!!!!!!!!! 👍🥁
I've been listening to groups like Cheap Trick for 50 + years. And I am an absolute novice at drum theology. I love the sound, beat, and rhythm of a drum solo. But watching this video, I had o idea that much went into the science of a great drummer. I just thought they just swung their arms in a certain rythem and that was it. I am totally amazed at the thought of everything that goes into being a drummer. I drum on the countertop. The coffee can lid. My stomach. But man. It is a total science. My hats are off to you, gentlemen. Mr Carlos is one of my top 5 drummers of all time. I would like to ask a question. As a novice and not knowing the proper nomenclature,lBuddy Rich said about how drummers now like to hold their sticks differently, forward in both hands, than he did. Any insight?
He's talking traditional grip vs match grip.
Buddy Rich played traditional grip, which was standard up til around the mid 60s. Most rock players started using match grip (exceptions like Mitch Mitchell), I can't track down the exact history but it probably helped that Ringo's playing matched in all the Beatles videos. From the 70s onward, traditional grip became associated with jazz and oldheads, and I mean that in a good way. It's pretty rare to see anyone these days playing traditional outside of jazz, but when you do, it looks dope.
@@tophergonzales6778 dope ha! yeah I still play both ways and constantly switch and I don't even think about it except when I forget to go to traditional while I'm doing hi-hat and accidentally whack the back side of my left hand. :) If you go way back, the main reason for traditional grip came form drums worn on a sling around one's neck. Since they hung at an angle it was impossible to play match grip without your left elbow sticking up into the air.
They sound pretty darn close to me, though I think that the two floor toms are the closest to being identical. I've a 14x20 Legacy Mahogany bass drum for about a year and have been really impressed with it! Modern drum construction undoubtedly results a more consistent product.
I've wanted a Bohnam green sparkle 3 ply since I was a kid. I got the 3 ply in his sizes but they are Rogers with a Slingerland 26x14 3 ply with Rogers lugs to match. Impossible to find the Ludwig version. I'm lucky to have what I have.
The guy playing with Led Zepagain has his own channel at this site. He seems to have acquired an impressive collection of Ludwigs for the job.
@@Fakename70 yeah, he got them like 10 years ago.
So the question that comes to my mind is what is it about that 13” 60’s tom that makes it jump out over the other drums? If it was me, I’d try to find a16” floor tom and a bass drum that had that same characteristic and make those drums a kit.
The rounded bearing edges are most effective for that vintage fat sound, and of course, the the poplar center.
I wish I still had mine.
Love everything on the video. The one thing I don’t get is what Uli said about the working drummer needing a very versatile kind of drums. I just don’t think there are that much of those drummer around to make it a selling argument. Hopefully most cats using Ludwig are paying their bills playing their favorite music.
Love and own em both. The two floor Toms were very close to identical, however kick and rack the winner is vintage. Can’t go wrong either way but I can hear the vintage richness from a Mile away and if I could only have one, it would still be the vintage.
Too bad Bun E. isn't with Cheap Trick anymore.
Unfortunately I think he can't tour anymore. I had read somewhere that he has back problems.
@@rhythmista7707 no, there was a falling out with Zander....
It shows why the the SUPRA, is such a great snare,,
I've owned 2 Maple Legacy kits, one is a kit Uli sold to me when he worked at the drum store in Chicago, Blue Glass finish 22, 13, 16 and matching snare and then later ordered another in Gold Glass, the blue glass seemed to have a better sound to me so I sold the Gold glass, but to make a short story long I also have a 1966 Ludwig 22, 13,16 in Bowling Ball Finish with a Acrolite snare, these drums just have a beautiful sound, the Legacys are close for sure and I really love the sound of them, they are both equally great sounding drums
Also met Bun E. at the Chicago drum show many years ago and talk to him there many times since, very cool dude to say the least
And your 1966s are almost certainly steam-bent mahogany/poplar/mahogany shells with round-over bearing edges and 1.6mm rims (maybe even COBs) so if a Maple Legacy kit (which replicates the 1968-1980 maple/poplar/maple shells) made in RFST bladder molds with 30 degree bearing edges and 2.3mm rims even sounds "close," it's truly remarkable.
Silver kit wins!
😎👍💗🇺🇸🥁🎼 ULI!
Great content!! Please do the same with your Vistalite and Stainless Steel kits!! 👍
The acrylic Ludwig’s sound the same new or old.
I clicked on this just because I saw studio A
Man I went pack and listened to Stupid Girl after Bun mentioned it, the drums sound fantastic on that record!
Great comparison! Really shows how great of recreations the Legacy shells are! Looks like they removed the rubber gaskets between the lugs and shell on the Legacy kit here which I think is a major weak link on the new Ludwig kits as it is a layer of insulation between the shell and lugs, dampening the resonance of the shell, so I'm glad they were comparing apples to apples as the stock legacy kits will definitely be a bit more choked. The only real differences between these two eras of kits are that the Legacy kits will all have perfectly round/true bearing edges whereas and the 60s kits are hit or miss on how true and round the edges are (or how well the edges have held up over 50 years), so hit or miss on whether they will sing or be choked, and also the hoops on the 60s and 70s sets used were 1.6mm and all modern sets have 2.3 mm hoops which not only adds weight to the drum, but also more attack. The lighter hoops are a bit more "airy" and "round" and really add to that vintage sound, but easily swapped on the reissue kits. Quality control today is also a big improvement! I've said it before and I'll say it again, Ludwig needs to reissue the rail consolettes! Oh and offer 1.6mm hoops from the factory!
Yeah well... I agree with you that there is less and less appeal in getting a real vintage kit, especially since the Neusonic came out for less than your average kit. Having said that... I don't understand your point regarding the lugs at all?? ALL lugs have a gasket behind them... that's for sure. If it wasn't the case, your beautiful 3K and up legacy kit would have nasty traces in the exterior left by the casting of the lugs...! Gasket are definitely not choking the shell. There here on every single kit today, made by every single drum manufacturer at any level, because they *isolate the wood from the metallic sound of the lugs and also protect the finish* - strictly nothing to do with choking. A small tiny rubber gasket will definitely not choke any shell. And I won't be buying a kit at this price point where I risk discovering that my finish is done if one lug moves and I need to re-tighten it very strongly and dent the finish... no way :O If it was choking, then putting your tom *on* the gasket of a snare basket is choking the shell...!!! And some people believe this as well. Don't be silly...
@@jas_bataille My new 2018 Ludwig Mahogany kit came with no gasket's.
Gotta get Alex Van Halen on this channel. He’s used Ludwig right from the beginning. I’d love to see him on some of his older kits vs some new ones.
great idea!
Ludwigs should only be played w Paiste cymbals. That should be a requirement!
The '66 kit sounds a tad warmer....
Can someone tell me what model of Ludwig drums were played by Boston’s drummer Sib Hashian?
Richard Zraick -I believe Sib Hashian played a 1970s (of course) 3 ply maple/poplar/maple classic "Pro Beat" kit.
Rhythmista Thanks for this info
“‘Mahogany”’ is a generic term for a bunch of different species. The vintage drums were likely Honduran aka Genuine Mahogany, which was still in good supply. Cuban, the king of Mahogany, was already exhausted by then.
Nowadays, they probably use African Mahogany (Khaya) which is just a marketing term in the hardwood industry. It is a totally different genus. It would like calling Beech “European Oak”.
Honduran is still available, but it is very expensive doesn’t come from Honduras (those forests are depleted).
It matters because Khaya is much denser than real Mahogany. It is also more plentiful and consistent veneers are easier to come by. But it is a different species and will sound a little different. Just like maple, beech and birch sound different.
I don’t know what they used then or now - this is based on my knowledge of the furniture industry (I am a furniture maker and drummer).
It does annoy me that the drum manufacturers are specific about maple, beech, birch & poplar but call all reddish brown woods “mahogany”.
does anybody know if Ludwig still makes a 6.5x14 super sensitive snare anymore??
It doesn't look like it from this page: www.ludwig-drums.com/en-us/ludwig/products/snare-drums. but if you really want to know, just call Ludwig customer Service at (800) 348-7426 or (866) 552-9150. There's real human beings (drummers) there to answer your questions. They could even arrange plant tours in pre-China virus times.
I think the trend of maximizing sustain has its benefits in understanding drum technology. Personally I prefer drums that open up fast, but sound somewhat more controlled in terms of sustain like the vintage ones do.
I’ve had a dozen or so of Ludwig’s kits through the decades, along with an embarrassing amount of others’, so I knew what to expect.
I watched it it just to see and hear Bun E. play and talk. For as big a band as Cheap Trick was, he had a rather low profile. What I’d personally like to hear are one of the Ludwig kits A/B’ed against the Radio Kings he used on Budokan (snare notwithstanding, of course, coz he was using Supraphonics).
But I understand that Ludwig’s trying to sell drums here, after all.
What a sales gimmick. Anyway, I have a Ludwig 69 set + a 70's both factory that play all tunings and never had a problem in the studio or live getting a great sound. They swing, they rock + everything in between. Played them both since they were new. So look at those two in front of Bunny's huge collection of old Ludwig drums, talking them down
Yeah, it seems a little strange to rag down on the craftsmanship of the older kits. If anything I think its the other way around.
Sounds like a cliche, but what you gain in precision you tend to lose in character. Newer kits often have this "pre mixed" quality to them which way be easier to work with, but it also makes them sound more generic no matter the brand. With the older kits you can hear a difference between the drum companies. Now you can't really tell them apart.
The only thing I prefer with the new stuff is the hardware.
So since Ludwig changed over to maple/poplar/maple in 1968 (except for the Ludwig Standard line), I take it that your kits are maple/poplar/maple?
I know very well how dogmatic drummers are, especially about vintage stuff but objectively, you have to look hard at times to find a vintage drum kit with good bearing edges that haven't been modified because over time, even when heads have been constantly left on under tension, those glued joints will distort. Maybe you like "imperfect" bearing edges but sometimes they sound like garbage and are tough to tune. Some vintage drums, because of less cutting edge technology and more human error, weren't round to begin with or have other issues because they had to wrap the whole shell, finish wrap and all together as round as they could make it and the results weren't as good as you'll get today. On the other hand, there are subjective viewpoints that age and time makes drum shells resonate better and I have lots of vintage Gretsch and Ludwig drums that sound amazing and very different than newer drums but they still work for some things and not for others. On your point about "sales gimmick", what are they supposed to do? They're selling drums. They have a business to run and especially now, when musicians have taken such a hit from this stupid virus, music businesses need advertising and help from awesome people like Steve Albini to drive sales. Why would they spend a half hour talking up the benefits of used, vintage drums for the purposes of selling new drums? Come on, man. It's called logic. Look into it.
Autodidactic Professor Sadly, logic seems to be in short supply these days.
Both great kits but I’ll take that 60’s Silver Sparkle any day of the week. PS Bun E looking good.
Although both sound great, I prefer the tone of the vintage kit. It just has a little more colour and warmth.
Make it a champagne sparkle and I'll buy one if my WFL set ever burns up