Do you see the titans as becoming NEW villains? Also I'd like to thank Yahaha for making this video possible, download the studio for free here: mtchm.de/cx9e5
Nah I see the titans as being an example of religious zealous. They aren’t evil but manipulative, there might be some who are more decent than the others. Also most of this conversation is also coming from Tyr you know the guy who basically helped the fall of his kind… yeah I see how now. I like to see the titans as idealistic who probably gotten worse with Sargareas fall.
well the idea that the light was "good" was killed the moment we met the Scarlet crusade, so vanilla. the titan being not so great, was already established in Wrath of the Lich King when we met Algalon and he tried to wipe out all life on the planet. they also imprisoned the elemental lords and their people in the elemental plane and at no point tried to release them back to Azeroth, their home. none of these things are retcons we knew something corrupted Galakrond and we knew the titans where like.
well no the scarlet crusade truly belived in the light and the right path they were just brainwashed by a dreadlord which lead to there twisted world view.
@@zinnia4516 well thats what im saying( i should have been more clear) the light works on conviction and faith and as long as you believe the light will answer. So saying the light is good is just wrong because the scarlet crusade did some messed up things and the light still supported them. Alot of people are under the impression that warcraft was black and white qt some point but it never was
The things is Starcraft was supposed To be Warhammer Story but blizzard deemed IT 2 dark, but they still Saw ITs storie is loved by people who also know Starcraft and thus they are now taking the no one is really good Story
Just because fanatics do something in the name of the light does not mean the light is evil. Algalon is not a titan, he was sent to purge Azeroth and restart it if it was deemed corrupt which it was. So sending the elemental lords back to their plane is wrong because reasons? you prefer they stay in Azeroth wreaking havoc and waging wars?
When it comes to the other cosmic forces, we’ve learned that they go beyond good and evil. The light and elune have both shown that they aren’t above committing act that we would consider evil. Why not the titans?
@@zackodom8765 Not really.. Chronicles was sold as THE lore book, then after it started being retconned left and right they came up with the "oh no folks, its just the titans perspective" excuse.
I agree, it kinda feels shoehorned. But I like it way more than shadowlands story. We get Titans, we get Dragons, we even might possibly get Yogg. All the stuff, minus the lich king, which got me into WoW lore.
I think we see exactly how the dragon eggs are being affected by the order infused waters. Its the Ruby Life Pools! This is why Alexstrasza is the Queen of Dragons, seemingly above the other Aspects, because the Keepers use her flight as part of their plan to control the dragons by infusing their philosophy into them from before they are even born!
The concept of “good” and “evil” don’t exist to the cosmic forces. They want the universe in their own image of what they view as “perfect”. They are more akin to a force of nature at work that has sentience and those working at the behest of it. Whether the mortal races are willingly going to accept it or not is not of their concern. The Burning Legion was kinda of an outlier, and did whatever they view as necessary to prevent a certain outcome from happening.
except you know, literally every time we come across titanic keepers... or the fucking titans themselves, they were more than happy to aid us and sacrifice themselves to do so.
@@grimnir8872 you also forgot to mention Algalon tried to purge us, who was another titan construct, also we had to fight a titan watcher Archaedas in Uldaman and many others over the years. Otherwise the only titan watcher that literally sacrificed himself to aid us was Ra-den. Also the other thing is most the main races of Azeroth either worship the titans or their constructs already or view them as godlike entities, where we give them our reverence to. Otherwise most their actions are a means to an end, after all their goal is to have Azeroth awaken and we still don’t know what will happen to us, if she did. After all the titans are living planets in humanoid form.
As lore deepens it'll always tend towards ''not good, not evil, they just look out for themselves or for purpose X or Y'' as it simply leaves the most possible depth available. Plus even most (not all) 'evil' human(like) persona's are never a 100% truly 'evil'. Or good. That'd get boring quickly as it's simply not relatable in any way shape or form for most people.
So, Basically Sargeras did what the Titans always wanted to do but never did. Sargeras is more of a “Take action and think about it after” guy And the Titans are “The Barking dog that never bites” types Interesting..
I've been saying this about the Titans ever since Ulduar. They are perfectly ok with wiping out entire ecosystems and planets if they feel the planet is a little too corrupted. This new letter seems to be consistent with that. It's not really a retcon. We are just learning more about how ruthless they are when it comes to mantaining order and fighting corruption.
The lore didn't change in the sense you mean it, it have stayed the same the entire time. What you experience at the moment is "ignorance" you ignored a big chunk of the lore and thus was blissfully ignorant over the very predictible changes that would come to World of Warcraft lore. I want to point out that the most of lore information we get is bias data from inside the game. So they are litearlly put up to be misleading/wrong or just a lie.
@@DirtyDooney22 No, no. It really have not changed, you just have not payed any attention to the details, and sometimes you might read to much into details. It require a balance and a grasp of idea on what the creator of that world is inspired from. You do not posses a world building mind, and that is most likely the reason why you treat the lore as "changed" because you simply just don't comprehend the world building.
@@usurperx7111 this is not world building , but merely looking for loose ends to tie it to another story, there was no such thing as "we are told the stories by titans perspective" when chronicles got released it was said way after that, also you do not build characters and than build the world you do the vice versa Tolkien did not invent the races and then the world of Arda neither did RR when he created GoT , you build the world and write stories about characters in it , sometimes characters change and you change your narrative accordingly , but blizzard did this wrongly so many times ofc people are going to say they are retconing.Take the story of illidan f.e there were no hints of him being a good guy, he was always a selfish power hungry horny for Tyranda asshole but legion made him into space elf Messiah . What you are referring to is called expanding the lore and the world but blizzard is doing it in such a lazy way it feels forced or shoehorned , in this case I would agree that it is not changing the story but expanding it because we have shown that light is not white and shadow is not dark before with many examples like scarlet crusade and the naru but in general saying they don't "change" the story is point blank ignorance
Such stupid moral relativism. The titans philosophy is obviously benevolent with what every living being would want to thrive in a civilization. Just because they are proactive with its implementation to stop the old gods influence, doesnt make them the bad guys or non-benevolent. We should be thankful for the titans massive influence, they are clearly not only the best choice we could have of the cosmic forces, but are literally good for our understanding.
Completely agreed. I don't care how hard Blizzard tries to convince me Nzoth and Sargeras and the Jailer are misunderstood heroes and the titans are a force to be feared, these guys have been basically killing puppies for as long as they've been in the setting. I don't care what great cosmic purpose they were working towards or how they're willing to fight the patriarchy, those guys are literally evil as sin and we were right to fight them all this time
I agree. I'm sick to the back teeth of seeing that cinematic of that Naaru trying to Lightforge Illidork and seeing that edgy Illidan fanfic treated like a smoking gun that the Naaru are as bad as the wannabe universe-destroyers, the Old Gods. Give me a break. You already hit the nail on the head regarding the Titans, so I won't add anything to that other than a "Hear-Hear!" Funny that the WoW devs seem to keep attacking morality, discipline, faith and other traits in their story as more news about the company's crimes and misdeeds emerges.
Mostly agree with ya, the titan agenda benefits us the most, just wish they were a little less extreme with their containment and contamination measures, looking at you Algalon! Also, I would probably prefer to be made of flesh than stone.
Good and evil are honestly just super supjective to the playerbase. Each pantheon is going to be "good" in accordance to their own pantheon. Sargeras was objectively "good" to the fel pantheon and the titans are subjectively good in their pantheon. They're primordial forces.
Sargeras is the good guy, just like Zoval,( both Wants to save us from the Greater Evil) Old gods and Primalist are just missuderstood. And now Titans are liars and manipulators , when Light has imperialist ambitions. Only natue still feel god but im not ready how they destroy elune in the future. Why I feel we work with baddies all along?
Feels like writers these past ten years have forgotten how to write simple bad and good guy narratives, "the good guys" are always revealed to have domineering ulterior motives while the guys who spend all expansion murdering puppies were simply misunderstood heroes in the end. As someone who's always played a paladin in order to be lawful good, I don't appreciate how I'm being rewritten into a pawn of a malevolent, imperialistic cosmic force
@@bayard6954 I like some parts of gray in every cosmic powers like The Scarlet Crusade who used light for evil believing they were doing it for the greater good, but Yrel's holy crusade doesnt fit the theme of the Light as we know.
@@northp3214 Having the light-wielders being capable of misguided evil made sense, but the NAARU going around enslaving unwilling mortals to their cause paints the light as pretty cartoonishly bad at its core. It goes straight against what we saw with Velen and Adal and O'ros, etc, etc, and I refuse to believe the entire Draenei race could be corrupted simply because Velen is out of the picture. The average Draenei is what, 10,000 years old and has lived on multiple worlds while having firsthand knowledge of the horrors of the legion? Why should Yrel's inexperience outweigh that collective wisdom
@@bayard6954 I mean it literally Retcons the Uldaman lore that Dwarves were considered "Acceptable adaptions" of Earthen. And retcons all the Watchers of Ulduar being actually friendly and willing to act on our behalf.
If this was done in another time i would have no problem with it, but after shadowlands i feel like the lore team or whoever does this, tries to create this elaborated history thinking it is good nice and all, but as we saw in sl they have no direction where they want to take the lore, they forget the old lore in order to make the new one shiny when the new lore has no engagement. I can barely take this new lore seriously at all
That's what's been hard for me to take anything serious after Legion/BFA tbh. It was so difficult for me to entertain the idea that the Jailer was behind everything, even Sargeras; since he was never even hinted at until Legion. He could've been the Doom Lord or Shadow King for all we knew. Felt like cheap way to recycle villian for sake of continuity, rather than intentional long term lorebuilding. It did not feel or come across like the Jailer had planned since Warcraft 3, or at least had really bad execution.
Yeah I find the concept of the Titans being as malicious as everyone a rather hard sell seeing as how every other force is pretty twisted by comparison. Wow used to be very definite. Now this whole George RR Martin approach to story telling from sources who have no inclination to tell the truth is just logistic ass covering in case the writers want to do something else.
Starting with the Sylvanas cinematic opening Shadowlands WoW lore has become a thinly veiled post-modernist assault on Platonism... "This world is a prison" and actually order is baaad.
I always felt that the Titans and their servants were focused on Absolute Order, and follow their directives to the letter. Algalon is a perfect example of this as when he arrived he reviewed the data in Ulduar's mainframe...which was Loken's Tribunal of Ages as I think the Discs of Norgannon were still either in Ironforge or Ul'daman at the time. It didn't matter that Azeroth was likely flagged as a high priority world to observed closely for all possible data, the minute he identified Void corruption he immediately went to initiate the purge protocols as he said he had done on numerous other worlds as well. It isn't until after we beat him that he realizes that he should reevaluate things more thoroughly and in one of the comics he realizes life is nuanced and that the other worlds he judged lost had deserved the same opportunity he had given to Azeroth.
@@odst123451 That's actually what I meant, their parameters were set so narrow there wasn't any room for variance, including if the inhabitants of a world were working to fix a problem themselves. A world had to be EXACTLY as the Titans wanted it Ordered, especially if a worldsoul was involved, or else they would keep clean slating it until it came out "perfect." The ultimate irony is that the Titans never realized that their actions were as nihilistic as the Void or Fel, in their opinion they were fixing everything "wrong" with the universe.
While possible, this lore actually concerns the Titan KEEPERS, not the Titans themselves, which we know aren't perfect and have caused problems before- Lokon, Odin. Do get me wrong, Titans aren't perfect either- Sargaras, the failsafes, etc, but I think this should be mentioned as it's an important detail.
This scope creep needs to be reigned in. Cosmic adventures where we tell off the gods of gods is not appealing in the sense that it doesn't feel warcraft. TBC had an issue like this bordering sci-fi a little too hard and shadowlands is needless to mention but fuck this first ones shit needs to be relegated to footnotes
Unfortunately, without a threat or a menace somewhere, where is the story ? Don't get me wrong, if the devs decide to drop an expansion with the gist "Azerothian heroes just took 5 years to clean up their world, resolve political situation, no final boss, chill days", and with a ton of technical enhancing (rework of Silvermoon/Exodar for example) and convinient hooks (housing), well... I would definitely see it as a big improvement to set a new arc for the game.
@@blub1220 There is not really a good and evil side : the Naaru are more "friendly" because the void is kinda possessive with newcomer and the madness showed by some boss around azeroth are simply hostile to everything that live. But there are some case where Naaru are not so good : - In Legion, a Naaru (forgot the name) try to turn ilidan into a "light boy" because of some prophecy to fulfill. Ilidan said no, blast the giant xylophone to bits and fulfill the prophecy on it's own, no "light" in him. The Naaru was convinced that his light will be required to empowered the chose one. - In the alternate Draenor, after the event of the WoD, the Naaru were the only "main" side of the cosmos on Draenor. Maybe in an attempt to prepare for the return of the Legion or in case of a "void" invasion, they push the Draeni over the edge and they become some kind of "Scarlet Crusade" : If you are not with us, you are against us. They turn willing people (orcs and maybe ogre and Arakkoa) into "light-bound" and after a time, they begin to turn unwilling people. It's pure brainwashing. I think that the Naaru fear the free will of people, seeing it as the first step to madness. When the Legion or the Void is here, they don't need to convince people to trust them, the enemy is savage/twisted enough. But if they are alone...
@@simondemoulin5815 I absolutely hate this. If there's no good and evil, what are we even fighting for lorewise? How do we know Azeroth isn't just another power-hungry cosmic creature? I find this writing extremely problematic.
@@latindwarf8173 At the end of the day, we are simple (but powerful) mortal. I guess we can say we fight to live another day in Azeroth, to die of old age only, to protect our people,... We are in the middle of a cosmic war between Light and Void, Order against Legion (before),... If there is true friendly to azeroth people in a "cosmic" scale, well... I think the Eternal, who create the universe are kinda in our side. Their silence can be seen as a "true" neutral side, so they really never help, but never threatened us too. Nature is also in our side, i guess. After all, we never got a situation where Druid/Wild Gods/Emerald Dream were against us. It happen with Goblin stupidity, but never at a war scale.
Evil Titans is Old Hat wtf do you think Saegaras was? an evil titan they loomed over our heads for 30 years Do somthing different that doesnt retcon shit, and that doesnt involve the "Self Insert" of a cosmic entity called the *MASSIVE AIR QUOTES* "First Ones" You couldnt pay me ANY amount of money to make me care about the first ones
i would still over all say better to work with the titians than the old gods shoot the titians are part time rulers vs anybody else who gonna be cracking the whip 24.7 they only come around like every 100 years lol so not so bad and the elemental lords aint so good either
showing that all sides can have a good and bad element is what warcraft 3 showed us. This is just part of that way of telling the story. No force is purely good same as no force is wholly evil.
If the Waters in the Dragonisles are infused with order magic do you think they might have infused the Well of Eternity with order magic too. That could have implication for the Naaru purifying the Sunwell and the unique mutations the Nightwell caused. Perhaps the Well of Eternity wasn't bleeding Arcane Magic to begin with, but Azerite. Sadly this also gives credit to the old Pyromancer speculation about the Titans (especially Eonar) caging/binding Life. Hope they don't take inspiration from speculation channels now. All in all Odyn has always been a dick, the Titans as far as we know don't know what he is doing and maybe don't even approve (can't imagine they would approve of him giving his eye to the jailer for example) but the Tyr revelations are concerning for sure.
Yeah i kinda figured it out when the two scenario's of meeting the Titans is either: A) Fighting corrupted ones that wants us dead. B) Fighting ones that deemed us corrupted and wants us dead.
But they weren't stritckly good guys. Plus we have been warned about this since Chronicles (2016)at least. Plus there was the titan servant who almost wiped out most life on Azeroth.
For the bit about the dragons eggs I'm not sure if it's what Blizzard intended or not but I got some flash backs to the Cata Badlands quests where some Titan technology is used in an attempt to purify Wrathion's egg from Old God corruption. Be kind of messed up if we removed the Old God influence and all that happened is now he's been basically brain washed by the Titans TBH.
It reeks of Danuser and his trademark "sUbVeRt already existing and beloved lore-technique" instead of actully making something new and interesting. Genuinely despise the guy and his "writing".
for me, is very telling that, almost every titan construct (or titan aligned individual) we have found, even if they are corrupted, follow a 'programing' a coding integrated into their cores that guides their actions , and it's only until we beat them to a pulp that they start showing independent thought and will, usually in he vein of 'oh my god, what I am doing', very infamously with the case of Algalon for example. So yeah, they might not be bad as a whole, but I dont think they are this perfect belevonent beings neither. We even know the Naaru are not perfect either, nobody is.
Same here, I too feel that this lore is shoe-horned, tho... Sargeras is a Titan himself, so it makes sense that to a certain degree, other Titans of the Pantheon should be capable of certain degrees of evil as well. I just feel like the idea of Titans being to a degree evil doesn't really felt natural, imo
What if the titans transformed native races and the curse of flesh just reverted them back to their natural state, Because all the curse of flesh did was convert stone to flesh, but where did the organs especially reproductive organs come from It doesn't make sense to give usless organs to a stone being
It was shoehorned when they did it to the Naaru, it was shoehorned when they did it to the Titans. This edgy moral relativism stuff, and is ruining investment in the WoW lore. (btw that Illidan Lightforge cinematic plays like a bad Illian fanfic and is overused as hell in WoW videos in general).
The Titans might've mellowed over time so it is not safe to rely on past information. Since the Azerothians saved them from Sargeras, the Titans are likely grateful as they sacrificed themselves to imprison Sargeras. The Titans might not be future villains but rather future allies who grew fond of the Azerothians for their heroic deeds and for saving them. They might be morally gray as they after different opinions and they don't enslave all the previous races on Azeroth like the Ancient Trolls.
they're justifying nuance in the cosmological narrative. Bad? Good? depends on what cosmological side you agree most with. they're also trying to write them selves out of the disjointed hole they put them selves in over the years. Kinda like DC did with every new generation of comics.
The void agree with what the titans say, the light agree with what the titans say, the demons agree with what the titans say....the broker say the titans are liars. the math is not hard to do. Also please not the void and the light are multiple UNIVERSES old the first ones are only from the current one.
i still don't see the titans as villains enough, and if the titans are bad then who in the warcraft verse is left as a good cosmic force? Burning legion bad Titans bad void is bad the light is bad the titans want to rule as a cosmic force and enforce their image of order and control, how does this make them bad? this is just like any empire in the past and they write their history however they wanted, but are they really that bad? unless blizzards fucks the lore even more i still don't see them as bad or good according to what you seem to hint to in the video, the titans are just like any gov too they want control and do bad and good things and also change things or hide things in their history that they don't want to show to the common people they govern.. also free will never existed in our universe aswell
I mean, was this change needed? Remember when villains and heroes were black and white, not this "shades of gray" nonsense? Just like Lord of the Rings
what? Lord of the Ring is not black and white bro, boromir, gollum, Saruman, hell even denethor all of them are shades of grey. even the orcs are "engineered" to be the violent sadistic bastards that they are.
This isn't even 'shades of grey' it's Blizzard running out of bad guys because everyone was a one dimensional villain, players have literally killed gods now Blizzard are dumbfounded about what to do next so they're retroactively making bad guys good and good guys bad as a last ditch effort. Shades of grey would be ambiguous and morally complex, this is just cheap and out of left field.
For everyone crying that this is bad. If you don’t think the titans are morally grey after all of the expansions so far, what have you been playing? They do not care about us. Only the world soul. That was made QUITE obvious on numerous occasion. They act in their best interest in relation to them being the embodiment of order. Everything that they have done on Azeroth was to help save the world soul, we just happened to live on Azeroth. They do not care about us and never have. If you can’t piece that together I am concerned for your comprehension skills
Except we literally have lore showing the titans cared for mortals; we have Uldaman proving they approve of the Dwarves, we have antorus where they literally move to defend the mortals who aided in stopping Argus. If the Titans were purely logical not very benevolent beings, why did they let the champions go?
man doron is just a negative nancy on anything. If there was a better place for news.. I'd rather do that but dang how does this guy live his life in negativity..
Chronicle is cannon to Warcraft 3, so that's my headcannon for all that I'm concerned. I'm sick and tired of Blizzard changing their cosmic hierarchy, I feel like I'm talking to one of these "gender-fluid" people. They must stop changing the past simply to fit their new goals, It's becoming a cancer to the franchise as a whole.
Imagine discipline and structure being a bad thing. Oh how much i love how wow lore has developed...... I wonder if this "bad guys want to control us because they have power, and everyone that has power is a bad guy. We must tear it all down!" approach to the lore seems very similar to some kind of philosphy that is very popular nowadays?
@Justin B maybe erase is to harsh of a word for you. They have to retcon and give new dumb meanings to the lore in order to make some things make sesnse. Example: before shadowlands, Arthas was a promising prince very obviously lawful good character, that developed intro a nightmareish chaotic evil character that had substance and essence. Now he s just a guy that another guy that had the power to control him to do things becuase some reasons. Before this the story had a soul and the fact that some things weren't explained was a good thing. But blizzard came and explained it all by saying "big bad guy faul" draining it's soul, denying arthas s accountability for the horrors he commited. It was kind like Even the most promising prince cand become the biggest villain, but now it s just a meh character that was just mind controlled while mind controlling zombies. Nice!
@Justin B and the erasing thingy that you're saying it s already established it is true , but review the full context and see if it a better story than what is developed now.
@Justin B Well this was already established years ago. In the Arthas book was shown(not told) that arthas took control when he was dormant on top of the frozen throne when he killed ner'zhul(the one that was supposed to control him impling that he is now no longer conttroled)and the little boy Arthas( which was his las remnant of humanity) thus finnaly becoming the lich king and not being arthas anymore. This implies he was doing his own thing. So we agree about that, but we did not find out about this in shadowlands, we found out that the jailer didn't control him, probably because of the fan backlash. In shadowlands we find out that the jailer had this genius plan of infiltrating the legion give the helm and sword to kil jaden and eventually via the lich king have a foothold on azeroth. That did not work and arthas was doing his own thing chilling killing people you know how you normally would as a lich king. He also was responsible for Sargeras's corruption to some extent in my understanding. But when you as a player show up you just beat him and das it. So he didn't manage to make that millenia long plan work out because some mortals came into his realm. I guess it would all go fine if it wans't for you nosy kids( just like scooby doo).let's say that makes sense. Don't get me wrong i hope the story does a 360 noscope on me and tells me haaa you were wrong fucker, it worked all along and headshots me. But it won't. It's all just bad writing using only plotdevices and retcons to make a pig that flies make sense. Arthas was doing his own thing, the Jailer couldn't use him but The Jailer makes Kingsmourne with Arthas's soul so he could control Anduin. So he uses a soul he couldn't control to control a soul he wants to control? How does that work. Was he like, yeah do your own thing little buddy i like you even tho you didn't do what you were supposed to do. Let's say that makes sense. When he states that he wants just to be big boss man over the cosmos( becuase probably he read Hagel and said, you know i really do everything to obtain more power, even failing even when i call my mom to ask her how she's doing i want more power) and Sylvanas shoots an arrow(even tho she shot like 30 at Bolvar and he wouldn't fall, but that should have been enough for big boss man) he grabs it mid air and says(paraphrasing): sit your bitch ass down! He throws her the lost part of her soul back so she woukd feel bad about being judged by her old friends and leaves. Let's say that makes sense. You know maybe i'm just biased but it really seems to me that nowadays the story writing is really bad everything is tell don't show, keeping characters just so they do some shit that starts another expansion and then kill them off or just keep them on stand by. I really love the lore and read some of the books and not all of them. But for me having multiple chronicles from different perspectives makes more sense than the entire shadowlands expansion. Let's kill the arbiter and put someone else who is irrelevant in that possition so we can give him this future possible plot device meaning that dreadful crown that is made from the helm of domination. You get me? Maybe i'm having confirmation bias but it just seems that they are doing a really bad job. Big bad villains with no personality, motivations or set of morals whatsoever, plot devices everywhere, telling us the story instead of showing it to us. Just look where something dosen't make sense, that s a future plot device. Why did the Jailer punish Sylvanas's treason by rewarding part of her soul back? Well you know we have this different story that we have in mind and we didn't know how to start it. Maybe you like how the story has developed that's ok, i really don't mind. Sorry for the long response but had to say some thing at lenght lol.
The Light always had a bad side because it's blinding - See: The Scarlet Crusade The Titans always were grey - that is LITERALLY the point of Sargeras's entire character Chronicle, if you actually read it and stop relying on MARKETING as if it's canon, has always obviously been history passed down from the Titans. Always. The only thing that has changed is that youtubers can now make money by complaining about a story they don't fucking read
It's bad writing, to drag everything into moral relativism with retcons instead of allowing ONE glimmer of actual good to exist. I enjoyed the fact that the titans were actually a large cosmic force that wasn't out to kill or mind control us, and that by fighting Alagon and aligning with the watchers, who ALL seem pretty damn good apart from those who got corrupted, It now feels like they're turning the titans malicious for no fucking reason.
Do you see the titans as becoming NEW villains? Also I'd like to thank Yahaha for making this video possible, download the studio for free here: mtchm.de/cx9e5
Nah I see the titans as being an example of religious zealous. They aren’t evil but manipulative, there might be some who are more decent than the others. Also most of this conversation is also coming from Tyr you know the guy who basically helped the fall of his kind… yeah I see how now. I like to see the titans as idealistic who probably gotten worse with Sargareas fall.
well the idea that the light was "good" was killed the moment we met the Scarlet crusade, so vanilla. the titan being not so great, was already established in Wrath of the Lich King when we met Algalon and he tried to wipe out all life on the planet. they also imprisoned the elemental lords and their people in the elemental plane and at no point tried to release them back to Azeroth, their home. none of these things are retcons we knew something corrupted Galakrond and we knew the titans where like.
well no the scarlet crusade truly belived in the light and the right path they were just brainwashed by a dreadlord which lead to there twisted world view.
@@zinnia4516 well thats what im saying( i should have been more clear) the light works on conviction and faith and as long as you believe the light will answer. So saying the light is good is just wrong because the scarlet crusade did some messed up things and the light still supported them. Alot of people are under the impression that warcraft was black and white qt some point but it never was
noooo everything is bad and any new development is bad, blizzard bad, game bad, stop it noooooooooooooooooo /j
The things is Starcraft was supposed To be Warhammer Story but blizzard deemed IT 2 dark, but they still Saw ITs storie is loved by people who also know Starcraft and thus they are now taking the no one is really good Story
Just because fanatics do something in the name of the light does not mean the light is evil. Algalon is not a titan, he was sent to purge Azeroth and restart it if it was deemed corrupt which it was. So sending the elemental lords back to their plane is wrong because reasons? you prefer they stay in Azeroth wreaking havoc and waging wars?
When it comes to the other cosmic forces, we’ve learned that they go beyond good and evil. The light and elune have both shown that they aren’t above committing act that we would consider evil. Why not the titans?
@@lexysraymont9627 She orchestrated the deaths of thousands of Night Elves to use their spirits as a power source.
@@lexysraymont9627 ah, I didn’t catch that. I thought she sent them to the shadowlands to expand her sphere of influence
Isn't it just the current story-writing trend? Good is evil and evil is good?
As far as I am concerned Chronicles are real story and anything post legion is just fanfic.
You sound like the typical forum fanboy.
Seems legit
that was never the case though, The Chronicals was always just "the titan perspective". The lore speculators said this when it released.
@@zackodom8765 Not really.. Chronicles was sold as THE lore book, then after it started being retconned left and right they came up with the "oh no folks, its just the titans perspective" excuse.
@Justin B It is. I do it with Star Wars, LOTR, Harry Potter and many other properties that shit the bed.
It’s like in real life, the winners write the history. And the chronicle’s are writen by the titans perspective.
So.. Just like it happened in WW2? Hmmmmmm!
@@AlexanderTheGreat1991 good point👍 I’ve originally thinked about the colonial period.
@@diegotavares4768 about how the ships were owned by "God's chosen people" and how they posed as whites?
I agree, it kinda feels shoehorned. But I like it way more than shadowlands story. We get Titans, we get Dragons, we even might possibly get Yogg. All the stuff, minus the lich king, which got me into WoW lore.
I think we see exactly how the dragon eggs are being affected by the order infused waters. Its the Ruby Life Pools! This is why Alexstrasza is the Queen of Dragons, seemingly above the other Aspects, because the Keepers use her flight as part of their plan to control the dragons by infusing their philosophy into them from before they are even born!
The concept of “good” and “evil” don’t exist to the cosmic forces. They want the universe in their own image of what they view as “perfect”. They are more akin to a force of nature at work that has sentience and those working at the behest of it. Whether the mortal races are willingly going to accept it or not is not of their concern. The Burning Legion was kinda of an outlier, and did whatever they view as necessary to prevent a certain outcome from happening.
except you know, literally every time we come across titanic keepers... or the fucking titans themselves, they were more than happy to aid us and sacrifice themselves to do so.
@@grimnir8872 you also forgot to mention Algalon tried to purge us, who was another titan construct, also we had to fight a titan watcher Archaedas in Uldaman and many others over the years. Otherwise the only titan watcher that literally sacrificed himself to aid us was Ra-den. Also the other thing is most the main races of Azeroth either worship the titans or their constructs already or view them as godlike entities, where we give them our reverence to. Otherwise most their actions are a means to an end, after all their goal is to have Azeroth awaken and we still don’t know what will happen to us, if she did. After all the titans are living planets in humanoid form.
As lore deepens it'll always tend towards ''not good, not evil, they just look out for themselves or for purpose X or Y'' as it simply leaves the most possible depth available. Plus even most (not all) 'evil' human(like) persona's are never a 100% truly 'evil'. Or good. That'd get boring quickly as it's simply not relatable in any way shape or form for most people.
So, Basically Sargeras did what the Titans always wanted to do but never did.
Sargeras is more of a “Take action and think about it after” guy
And the Titans are “The Barking dog that never bites” types
Interesting..
So basically Sargeras was the good guy.
Next expansion he will be a questgiver that wants you to pick seeds out of poop.
@@KackfeeLP Everybody always ask who is Sargeras but nobody ever ask how’s Sargeras. Bro got feelings u know
plot twist, old gods were our saviors that got imprisoned.
I've been saying this about the Titans ever since Ulduar. They are perfectly ok with wiping out entire ecosystems and planets if they feel the planet is a little too corrupted. This new letter seems to be consistent with that. It's not really a retcon. We are just learning more about how ruthless they are when it comes to mantaining order and fighting corruption.
really stupid new lore ngl imo
Definitely really edgy and it can really go in either direction at this point.
danuser is really trying to fuck up metzen's lore and shoehorn his shitty stories in
@@Doronsmovies Just hope is gonna be better then shadowlands lore KEKW
@@pvp979gaming that's a low bar
So the lore change again. SHOCKER!!!🤣
The lore didn't change in the sense you mean it, it have stayed the same the entire time.
What you experience at the moment is "ignorance" you ignored a big chunk of the lore and thus was blissfully ignorant over the very predictible changes that would come to World of Warcraft lore.
I want to point out that the most of lore information we get is bias data from inside the game.
So they are litearlly put up to be misleading/wrong or just a lie.
Nothing changed you dunce
@@usurperx7111 nah lore is always being changed
@@DirtyDooney22 No, no. It really have not changed, you just have not payed any attention to the details, and sometimes you might read to much into details. It require a balance and a grasp of idea on what the creator of that world is inspired from.
You do not posses a world building mind, and that is most likely the reason why you treat the lore as "changed" because you simply just don't comprehend the world building.
@@usurperx7111 this is not world building , but merely looking for loose ends to tie it to another story, there was no such thing as "we are told the stories by titans perspective" when chronicles got released it was said way after that, also you do not build characters and than build the world you do the vice versa Tolkien did not invent the races and then the world of Arda neither did RR when he created GoT , you build the world and write stories about characters in it , sometimes characters change and you change your narrative accordingly , but blizzard did this wrongly so many times ofc people are going to say they are retconing.Take the story of illidan f.e there were no hints of him being a good guy, he was always a selfish power hungry horny for Tyranda asshole but legion made him into space elf Messiah . What you are referring to is called expanding the lore and the world but blizzard is doing it in such a lazy way it feels forced or shoehorned , in this case I would agree that it is not changing the story but expanding it because we have shown that light is not white and shadow is not dark before with many examples like scarlet crusade and the naru but in general saying they don't "change" the story is point blank ignorance
So, we're waiting for Illidan and Sargeras to save us.
Possibly after what’s going to happen to Malfurion in Dragonflight
You know at this point I’ve just given up on WOW lore being consistent and seeing something changed no longer surprises Me.
And an ever-changing lore is bad because?
Such stupid moral relativism. The titans philosophy is obviously benevolent with what every living being would want to thrive in a civilization. Just because they are proactive with its implementation to stop the old gods influence, doesnt make them the bad guys or non-benevolent.
We should be thankful for the titans massive influence, they are clearly not only the best choice we could have of the cosmic forces, but are literally good for our understanding.
Completely agreed. I don't care how hard Blizzard tries to convince me Nzoth and Sargeras and the Jailer are misunderstood heroes and the titans are a force to be feared, these guys have been basically killing puppies for as long as they've been in the setting.
I don't care what great cosmic purpose they were working towards or how they're willing to fight the patriarchy, those guys are literally evil as sin and we were right to fight them all this time
I agree. I'm sick to the back teeth of seeing that cinematic of that Naaru trying to Lightforge Illidork and seeing that edgy Illidan fanfic treated like a smoking gun that the Naaru are as bad as the wannabe universe-destroyers, the Old Gods. Give me a break. You already hit the nail on the head regarding the Titans, so I won't add anything to that other than a "Hear-Hear!"
Funny that the WoW devs seem to keep attacking morality, discipline, faith and other traits in their story as more news about the company's crimes and misdeeds emerges.
Mostly agree with ya, the titan agenda benefits us the most, just wish they were a little less extreme with their containment and contamination measures, looking at you Algalon! Also, I would probably prefer to be made of flesh than stone.
@@bayard6954 prove the jailer is evil
@@edbotikx No
Good and evil are honestly just super supjective to the playerbase. Each pantheon is going to be "good" in accordance to their own pantheon. Sargeras was objectively "good" to the fel pantheon and the titans are subjectively good in their pantheon. They're primordial forces.
Sargeras is the good guy, just like Zoval,( both Wants to save us from the Greater Evil) Old gods and Primalist are just missuderstood. And now Titans are liars and manipulators , when Light has imperialist ambitions. Only natue still feel god but im not ready how they destroy elune in the future. Why I feel we work with baddies all along?
Feels like writers these past ten years have forgotten how to write simple bad and good guy narratives, "the good guys" are always revealed to have domineering ulterior motives while the guys who spend all expansion murdering puppies were simply misunderstood heroes in the end.
As someone who's always played a paladin in order to be lawful good, I don't appreciate how I'm being rewritten into a pawn of a malevolent, imperialistic cosmic force
@@bayard6954 I like some parts of gray in every cosmic powers like The Scarlet Crusade who used light for evil believing they were doing it for the greater good, but Yrel's holy crusade doesnt fit the theme of the Light as we know.
@@northp3214 Having the light-wielders being capable of misguided evil made sense, but the NAARU going around enslaving unwilling mortals to their cause paints the light as pretty cartoonishly bad at its core.
It goes straight against what we saw with Velen and Adal and O'ros, etc, etc, and I refuse to believe the entire Draenei race could be corrupted simply because Velen is out of the picture. The average Draenei is what, 10,000 years old and has lived on multiple worlds while having firsthand knowledge of the horrors of the legion? Why should Yrel's inexperience outweigh that collective wisdom
@@bayard6954 I mean it literally Retcons the Uldaman lore that Dwarves were considered "Acceptable adaptions" of Earthen. And retcons all the Watchers of Ulduar being actually friendly and willing to act on our behalf.
So, Garrosh, Jailer did nothing wrong😂🤣
If this was done in another time i would have no problem with it, but after shadowlands i feel like the lore team or whoever does this, tries to create this elaborated history thinking it is good nice and all, but as we saw in sl they have no direction where they want to take the lore, they forget the old lore in order to make the new one shiny when the new lore has no engagement. I can barely take this new lore seriously at all
That's what's been hard for me to take anything serious after Legion/BFA tbh. It was so difficult for me to entertain the idea that the Jailer was behind everything, even Sargeras; since he was never even hinted at until Legion. He could've been the Doom Lord or Shadow King for all we knew. Felt like cheap way to recycle villian for sake of continuity, rather than intentional long term lorebuilding. It did not feel or come across like the Jailer had planned since Warcraft 3, or at least had really bad execution.
Nothing is sacred for postmodern writers, good is bad and bad is good,
Yeah I find the concept of the Titans being as malicious as everyone a rather hard sell seeing as how every other force is pretty twisted by comparison. Wow used to be very definite. Now this whole George RR Martin approach to story telling from sources who have no inclination to tell the truth is just logistic ass covering in case the writers want to do something else.
Starting with the Sylvanas cinematic opening Shadowlands WoW lore has become a thinly veiled post-modernist assault on Platonism... "This world is a prison" and actually order is baaad.
I always felt that the Titans and their servants were focused on Absolute Order, and follow their directives to the letter. Algalon is a perfect example of this as when he arrived he reviewed the data in Ulduar's mainframe...which was Loken's Tribunal of Ages as I think the Discs of Norgannon were still either in Ironforge or Ul'daman at the time. It didn't matter that Azeroth was likely flagged as a high priority world to observed closely for all possible data, the minute he identified Void corruption he immediately went to initiate the purge protocols as he said he had done on numerous other worlds as well. It isn't until after we beat him that he realizes that he should reevaluate things more thoroughly and in one of the comics he realizes life is nuanced and that the other worlds he judged lost had deserved the same opportunity he had given to Azeroth.
What does that have to do with absolute order? It’s more like he held a nihilistic no tolerance policy toward void corruption.
@@odst123451 That's actually what I meant, their parameters were set so narrow there wasn't any room for variance, including if the inhabitants of a world were working to fix a problem themselves. A world had to be EXACTLY as the Titans wanted it Ordered, especially if a worldsoul was involved, or else they would keep clean slating it until it came out "perfect." The ultimate irony is that the Titans never realized that their actions were as nihilistic as the Void or Fel, in their opinion they were fixing everything "wrong" with the universe.
@@id9907 very well said
While possible, this lore actually concerns the Titan KEEPERS, not the Titans themselves, which we know aren't perfect and have caused problems before- Lokon, Odin.
Do get me wrong, Titans aren't perfect either- Sargaras, the failsafes, etc, but I think this should be mentioned as it's an important detail.
This scope creep needs to be reigned in. Cosmic adventures where we tell off the gods of gods is not appealing in the sense that it doesn't feel warcraft.
TBC had an issue like this bordering sci-fi a little too hard and shadowlands is needless to mention but fuck this first ones shit needs to be relegated to footnotes
How is your voice so high in the opener?? @0:00
Why do they make everyone evil? First the Naaru, now the Titans. Next time we’ll fight Azeroth herself.
Unfortunately, without a threat or a menace somewhere, where is the story ?
Don't get me wrong, if the devs decide to drop an expansion with the gist "Azerothian heroes just took 5 years to clean up their world, resolve political situation, no final boss, chill days", and with a ton of technical enhancing (rework of Silvermoon/Exodar for example) and convinient hooks (housing), well... I would definitely see it as a big improvement to set a new arc for the game.
The Naaru are evil? I thought they are only "evil" when one Naaru die and change to a void lord.
@@blub1220 There is not really a good and evil side : the Naaru are more "friendly" because the void is kinda possessive with newcomer and the madness showed by some boss around azeroth are simply hostile to everything that live.
But there are some case where Naaru are not so good :
- In Legion, a Naaru (forgot the name) try to turn ilidan into a "light boy" because of some prophecy to fulfill. Ilidan said no, blast the giant xylophone to bits and fulfill the prophecy on it's own, no "light" in him. The Naaru was convinced that his light will be required to empowered the chose one.
- In the alternate Draenor, after the event of the WoD, the Naaru were the only "main" side of the cosmos on Draenor. Maybe in an attempt to prepare for the return of the Legion or in case of a "void" invasion, they push the Draeni over the edge and they become some kind of "Scarlet Crusade" : If you are not with us, you are against us. They turn willing people (orcs and maybe ogre and Arakkoa) into "light-bound" and after a time, they begin to turn unwilling people. It's pure brainwashing.
I think that the Naaru fear the free will of people, seeing it as the first step to madness. When the Legion or the Void is here, they don't need to convince people to trust them, the enemy is savage/twisted enough. But if they are alone...
@@simondemoulin5815 I absolutely hate this. If there's no good and evil, what are we even fighting for lorewise? How do we know Azeroth isn't just another power-hungry cosmic creature? I find this writing extremely problematic.
@@latindwarf8173 At the end of the day, we are simple (but powerful) mortal. I guess we can say we fight to live another day in Azeroth, to die of old age only, to protect our people,... We are in the middle of a cosmic war between Light and Void, Order against Legion (before),...
If there is true friendly to azeroth people in a "cosmic" scale, well... I think the Eternal, who create the universe are kinda in our side. Their silence can be seen as a "true" neutral side, so they really never help, but never threatened us too.
Nature is also in our side, i guess. After all, we never got a situation where Druid/Wild Gods/Emerald Dream were against us. It happen with Goblin stupidity, but never at a war scale.
Is it just me or Doron’s voice is getting squeakier by the video?
I don't think it's a bad idea, beause it doesn't contradict current lore, it just elaborates on it.
Evil Titans is Old Hat wtf do you think Saegaras was? an evil titan they loomed over our heads for 30 years
Do somthing different that doesnt retcon shit, and that doesnt involve the "Self Insert" of a cosmic entity called the *MASSIVE AIR QUOTES* "First Ones"
You couldnt pay me ANY amount of money to make me care about the first ones
i would still over all say better to work with the titians than the old gods shoot the titians are part time rulers vs anybody else who gonna be cracking the whip 24.7 they only come around like every 100 years lol so not so bad and the elemental lords aint so good either
showing that all sides can have a good and bad element is what warcraft 3 showed us. This is just part of that way of telling the story. No force is purely good same as no force is wholly evil.
Current WoW lore is a dumpster fire, like the game itself. Blizzard started with a good foundation and have been crapping on it for years.
So Blizzard is just making the good guys bad and the bad guys good, but abusing and ripping the old lore.
More like make the Bad Guys Good and the Good Guys Idiots.
If the Waters in the Dragonisles are infused with order magic do you think they might have infused the Well of Eternity with order magic too. That could have implication for the Naaru purifying the Sunwell and the unique mutations the Nightwell caused. Perhaps the Well of Eternity wasn't bleeding Arcane Magic to begin with, but Azerite.
Sadly this also gives credit to the old Pyromancer speculation about the Titans (especially Eonar) caging/binding Life. Hope they don't take inspiration from speculation channels now.
All in all Odyn has always been a dick, the Titans as far as we know don't know what he is doing and maybe don't even approve (can't imagine they would approve of him giving his eye to the jailer for example) but the Tyr revelations are concerning for sure.
This dosen't seem like any change realy aside from the language used which strikes me as Blizzard not trusting us to comprehend it already.
Yeah i kinda figured it out when the two scenario's of meeting the Titans is either:
A) Fighting corrupted ones that wants us dead.
B) Fighting ones that deemed us corrupted and wants us dead.
The titans and old gods contaminated the water supply to make the frogs gay.
But they weren't stritckly good guys.
Plus we have been warned about this since Chronicles (2016)at least.
Plus there was the titan servant who almost wiped out most life on Azeroth.
For the bit about the dragons eggs I'm not sure if it's what Blizzard intended or not but I got some flash backs to the Cata Badlands quests where some Titan technology is used in an attempt to purify Wrathion's egg from Old God corruption.
Be kind of messed up if we removed the Old God influence and all that happened is now he's been basically brain washed by the Titans TBH.
It reeks of Danuser and his trademark "sUbVeRt already existing and beloved lore-technique" instead of actully making something new and interesting. Genuinely despise the guy and his "writing".
Maybe Blizzard is copying Babylon 5’s homework 🤣
Also
Illidan: Im in danger!
They changed the titans again? Imagine my shock.
Sargeras did nothing wrong
Maybe this is a setup for a Sargeras redemption haha. They painted him as the devil because he wanted to destroy their tyranny.
@Return to the Old World Yeep. And we're supposed to be sympathetic because that's anti-establishment of him
@@Doronsmovies maybe it was his goal on the start and got lost along the way especially when the dreadlords got in his ears
ONE MORE WEEK GUYS!
the titans seem to be a lot like the light ''we are correct, and everyone else has to accept it''
Pyro was right
What did Pyro say?
nope.
for me, is very telling that, almost every titan construct (or titan aligned individual) we have found, even if they are corrupted, follow a 'programing' a coding integrated into their cores that guides their actions , and it's only until we beat them to a pulp that they start showing independent thought and will, usually in he vein of 'oh my god, what I am doing', very infamously with the case of Algalon for example. So yeah, they might not be bad as a whole, but I dont think they are this perfect belevonent beings neither. We even know the Naaru are not perfect either, nobody is.
This has been a thing since WotLK. Free will = curse of flesh has been hinted at many times.
Same here, I too feel that this lore is shoe-horned, tho... Sargeras is a Titan himself, so it makes sense that to a certain degree, other Titans of the Pantheon should be capable of certain degrees of evil as well. I just feel like the idea of Titans being to a degree evil doesn't really felt natural, imo
What if the titans transformed native races and the curse of flesh just reverted them back to their natural state,
Because all the curse of flesh did was convert stone to flesh, but where did the organs especially reproductive organs come from
It doesn't make sense to give usless organs to a stone being
Honestly, I kinda want to fight more titans that haven't been corrupted in one way or another
Aw shit, here we go again
I want an option to join the old gods and annihilate the titans
It was shoehorned when they did it to the Naaru, it was shoehorned when they did it to the Titans. This edgy moral relativism stuff, and is ruining investment in the WoW lore. (btw that Illidan Lightforge cinematic plays like a bad Illian fanfic and is overused as hell in WoW videos in general).
The Titans might've mellowed over time so it is not safe to rely on past information. Since the Azerothians saved them from Sargeras, the Titans are likely grateful as they sacrificed themselves to imprison Sargeras. The Titans might not be future villains but rather future allies who grew fond of the Azerothians for their heroic deeds and for saving them.
They might be morally gray as they after different opinions and they don't enslave all the previous races on Azeroth like the Ancient Trolls.
they're justifying nuance in the cosmological narrative. Bad? Good? depends on what cosmological side you agree most with. they're also trying to write them selves out of the disjointed hole they put them selves in over the years. Kinda like DC did with every new generation of comics.
The void agree with what the titans say, the light agree with what the titans say, the demons agree with what the titans say....the broker say the titans are liars. the math is not hard to do.
Also please not the void and the light are multiple UNIVERSES old the first ones are only from the current one.
i still don't see the titans as villains enough, and if the titans are bad then who in the warcraft verse is left as a good cosmic force? Burning legion bad Titans bad void is bad the light is bad
the titans want to rule as a cosmic force and enforce their image of order and control, how does this make them bad? this is just like any empire in the past and they write their history however they wanted, but are they really that bad? unless blizzards fucks the lore even more i still don't see them as bad or good according to what you seem to hint to in the video, the titans are just like any gov too they want control and do bad and good things and also change things or hide things in their history that they don't want to show to the common people they govern..
also free will never existed in our universe aswell
I mean, was this change needed?
Remember when villains and heroes were black and white, not this "shades of gray" nonsense?
Just like Lord of the Rings
Black and white is cringe and childish. LoTR is cheesy and lowkey racist.
what? Lord of the Ring is not black and white bro, boromir, gollum, Saruman, hell even denethor all of them are shades of grey. even the orcs are "engineered" to be the violent sadistic bastards that they are.
"why isn't every fantasy story like lord of the rings"
go LotR has an mmo. Go play that. Fucking baby
This isn't even 'shades of grey' it's Blizzard running out of bad guys because everyone was a one dimensional villain, players have literally killed gods now Blizzard are dumbfounded about what to do next so they're retroactively making bad guys good and good guys bad as a last ditch effort. Shades of grey would be ambiguous and morally complex, this is just cheap and out of left field.
So, the titans were oppressors
@@arbenzotaj8342 sounds like Odyn was pretty oppressive. What do you call bringing the protodragons “in line”?
I've never thought the Light or the Titans were good
Nah someone is just fucking with the old lore......wtf
Danuser needs to stop ruining lore.
For everyone crying that this is bad. If you don’t think the titans are morally grey after all of the expansions so far, what have you been playing? They do not care about us. Only the world soul. That was made QUITE obvious on numerous occasion. They act in their best interest in relation to them being the embodiment of order. Everything that they have done on Azeroth was to help save the world soul, we just happened to live on Azeroth. They do not care about us and never have. If you can’t piece that together I am concerned for your comprehension skills
Except we literally have lore showing the titans cared for mortals; we have Uldaman proving they approve of the Dwarves, we have antorus where they literally move to defend the mortals who aided in stopping Argus. If the Titans were purely logical not very benevolent beings, why did they let the champions go?
man doron is just a negative nancy on anything. If there was a better place for news.. I'd rather do that but dang how does this guy live his life in negativity..
Everyone else: Argues about the lore of Galakrond
Me imagining a disney teen movie trailer about Galakrond:
;>
disney ? so LGBTQ black galakrond robbing Anduins treasures ?
@@semiramisubw4864 no no, something like...
"Galakrond was an ordinary proto-dragon, until he drank from the infected pools!"
I like that they're problematizing simple dichotomies. Light = good, order = good, is incredibly boring.
Yeah, instead they make them all seem exactly the same, and make them even more boring in doing so
Chronicle is cannon to Warcraft 3, so that's my headcannon for all that I'm concerned. I'm sick and tired of Blizzard changing their cosmic hierarchy, I feel like I'm talking to one of these "gender-fluid" people. They must stop changing the past simply to fit their new goals, It's becoming a cancer to the franchise as a whole.
Good and Evil is just a point of view
Imagine discipline and structure being a bad thing. Oh how much i love how wow lore has developed......
I wonder if this "bad guys want to control us because they have power, and everyone that has power is a bad guy. We must tear it all down!" approach to the lore seems very similar to some kind of philosphy that is very popular nowadays?
@Justin B that would be reasonable if in order for this to make sense they must erase the entire established lore
@Justin B You mean beings willing to erase you when literally systemic collapse happens, which means an old god is loose?
@Justin B maybe erase is to harsh of a word for you. They have to retcon and give new dumb meanings to the lore in order to make some things make sesnse. Example: before shadowlands, Arthas was a promising prince very obviously lawful good character, that developed intro a nightmareish chaotic evil character that had substance and essence. Now he s just a guy that another guy that had the power to control him to do things becuase some reasons. Before this the story had a soul and the fact that some things weren't explained was a good thing. But blizzard came and explained it all by saying "big bad guy faul" draining it's soul, denying arthas s accountability for the horrors he commited. It was kind like Even the most promising prince cand become the biggest villain, but now it s just a meh character that was just mind controlled while mind controlling zombies. Nice!
@Justin B and the erasing thingy that you're saying it s already established it is true , but review the full context and see if it a better story than what is developed now.
@Justin B Well this was already established years ago. In the Arthas book was shown(not told) that arthas took control when he was dormant on top of the frozen throne when he killed ner'zhul(the one that was supposed to control him impling that he is now no longer conttroled)and the little boy Arthas( which was his las remnant of humanity) thus finnaly becoming the lich king and not being arthas anymore. This implies he was doing his own thing. So we agree about that, but we did not find out about this in shadowlands, we found out that the jailer didn't control him, probably because of the fan backlash. In shadowlands we find out that the jailer had this genius plan of infiltrating the legion give the helm and sword to kil jaden and eventually via the lich king have a foothold on azeroth. That did not work and arthas was doing his own thing chilling killing people you know how you normally would as a lich king. He also was responsible for Sargeras's corruption to some extent in my understanding. But when you as a player show up you just beat him and das it. So he didn't manage to make that millenia long plan work out because some mortals came into his realm. I guess it would all go fine if it wans't for you nosy kids( just like scooby doo).let's say that makes sense. Don't get me wrong i hope the story does a 360 noscope on me and tells me haaa you were wrong fucker, it worked all along and headshots me. But it won't. It's all just bad writing using only plotdevices and retcons to make a pig that flies make sense. Arthas was doing his own thing, the Jailer couldn't use him but The Jailer makes Kingsmourne with Arthas's soul so he could control Anduin. So he uses a soul he couldn't control to control a soul he wants to control? How does that work. Was he like, yeah do your own thing little buddy i like you even tho you didn't do what you were supposed to do. Let's say that makes sense. When he states that he wants just to be big boss man over the cosmos( becuase probably he read Hagel and said, you know i really do everything to obtain more power, even failing even when i call my mom to ask her how she's doing i want more power) and Sylvanas shoots an arrow(even tho she shot like 30 at Bolvar and he wouldn't fall, but that should have been enough for big boss man) he grabs it mid air and says(paraphrasing): sit your bitch ass down! He throws her the lost part of her soul back so she woukd feel bad about being judged by her old friends and leaves. Let's say that makes sense. You know maybe i'm just biased but it really seems to me that nowadays the story writing is really bad everything is tell don't show, keeping characters just so they do some shit that starts another expansion and then kill them off or just keep them on stand by. I really love the lore and read some of the books and not all of them. But for me having multiple chronicles from different perspectives makes more sense than the entire shadowlands expansion. Let's kill the arbiter and put someone else who is irrelevant in that possition so we can give him this future possible plot device meaning that dreadful crown that is made from the helm of domination. You get me? Maybe i'm having confirmation bias but it just seems that they are doing a really bad job. Big bad villains with no personality, motivations or set of morals whatsoever, plot devices everywhere, telling us the story instead of showing it to us. Just look where something dosen't make sense, that s a future plot device. Why did the Jailer punish Sylvanas's treason by rewarding part of her soul back? Well you know we have this different story that we have in mind and we didn't know how to start it. Maybe you like how the story has developed that's ok, i really don't mind. Sorry for the long response but had to say some thing at lenght lol.
God it's so bad
The Light always had a bad side because it's blinding - See: The Scarlet Crusade
The Titans always were grey - that is LITERALLY the point of Sargeras's entire character
Chronicle, if you actually read it and stop relying on MARKETING as if it's canon, has always obviously been history passed down from the Titans. Always.
The only thing that has changed is that youtubers can now make money by complaining about a story they don't fucking read
why you talk like this????
another retcon they can keep there garbage.
It's bad writing, to drag everything into moral relativism with retcons instead of allowing ONE glimmer of actual good to exist. I enjoyed the fact that the titans were actually a large cosmic force that wasn't out to kill or mind control us, and that by fighting Alagon and aligning with the watchers, who ALL seem pretty damn good apart from those who got corrupted, It now feels like they're turning the titans malicious for no fucking reason.
and the winner for most obnoxious voice goes to...
Sargeras did nothing wrong