I agree with you about Violet. She is a wonderful woman and absolutely deserves to experience love and passion again, just like everybody else. Why would anyone be against that?
the same reason Daphne was terrified about her reputation being ruined in season 1, sexism's ugly head is everywhere, and if a woman gets caught......well some women can handle every door being shut in their faces, people avoiding eye contact and only a handful of places allowing you to step inside. Some can handle it, and some can't.
I have seen so many people (mostly younger teen girls) be super against the Agatha/Ledger romance because they think he's old and unattractive 🙄 mans is FINE literally a slightly older Anthony so I'm happy you're giving a more legitimate reason for disliking them together rather than that spiel But I like them together purely bc Agatha seems to be in control and happy for the first time in her life - even if in real life it'd be questionable, but yeah the break up is brutal but in the times had to happen and I believe he chose to end it to not risk besmirching HER reputation since he wants to see her thrive in this society The moment with Charlotte at Agatha's house felt important to me because Agatha inspires Charlotte to finally take control in her position and be a boss bitch and go get her man This episode is def more of a drag but I don't dislike it!
I’m not a teen, I’m a woman in my thirties and I’m against that relationship because I think they did Danbury dirty asf! She was married off at 3 to that awful man that r@ped her all day every day then they turned her into the mistress of another man who rejected her!!! Didn’t even have the balls to confront her and properly broke up with her. These men just used her. The only positive thing is that she got to experience sexual pleasure and agency, consensual sex with Ledger BUT he rejected her and went back to his racist white wife while Lady Danbury remained a secret. She’s the only character who did not experience a full blown relationship with unconditional, reciprocated love. She got rob! 😒😒😒😒😒
@@kellyattobrah3798 Everything you said is true yeah, (the teen part i meant in regards to finding ledger unattractive) i do hate that she didnt get a full love story with a happy ending but also I understand the writers could not do alot since we already know in present day bridgerton she is alone and not interested in marriage/love
@@GeorgiePorgie127 That's the way I saw it. We know how Lady Danbury ends up, so they needed a backstory that matches up with that. But I'm glad to know that she had love and wasn't lonely, and that her being unmarried was chosen by her. Ledger breaking up with her was for Lady Danbury's benefit. He could've selfishly kept up the affair and risk her reputation, but he did what had to be done, even though it broke both of their hearts.
Also tiny fun fact about the word quickening if you are reading it and it's showing up during a spicy scene in a smut book.... It's a British slang for orgasm... But yes, when it's set in the context of pregnancy it mean to the first times you feel the baby move.
Spoiler alert - do any of you remember the epilogue series or was it Violet in bloom, where she met this gentleman at a masquerade ball? And they danced??? That guy, I need that guy identified, and that guy needs to be her love interest. I don't understand why some people want Violet to live the rest of her days alone.
I mean some book readers might want it to happen because that's what happens in the source material. She never loves again. But the show has already changed things like they aged down lady Danbury, IIRC, from what book readers have told me she's like an elderly woman in her 70s in the books... So I mean as an non-book reader I would be totally okay with Violet having another love interest. The actress is ABSOLUTELY amazing so I would love to see more of her! But yeah... that's why book readers don't want it to happen... And potentially why is there is a chance that it might not happen in the show. It IS contractual that all of the relationships that exist in the book series have to play out the way that it plays out in the books (Therefore no queer Bridgerton siblings... The books are painfully hetrosexual.. it's kind of baffling that out of ALL of the bridgertons siblings not even ONE of them is queer... That doesn't happen very often, statistically). Or that's the rumour anyway... But we aren't sure if this clause in the contract applies to just the main love stories or also for the side characters like Violet. So the writers might be able to go off of the beaten track and have Violet have a love interest or they contractually might not be able to.... The reason why they were able to do it with Lady Danbury is that lady Danbury is very very much a side character, from what book readers have explained to me... and you don't actually know much about her life at all so the writers are kind of able to do ANYTHING with her story because there's not a lot of source material information that they have available and need to stick to.
@@AnxietyRat I *REALLY* wanted Benedict to be bi, but I know that he's required to be with who he ended up with in the books. Benedict reads as queer in the series.
@@lynnhettrick7588 same. And I've talked to book readers about this... And they have said that it actually would be very very easy for them to gender swap Sophie... So if the show really really wanted to... they could. It wouldn't be difficult. But again if the rumours about the contract are true they may contractually not be able to gender swap his love interest... But yeah I really thought that they were going for a Bi Benedict in season one but then they realized that a lot of people were thinking that and did a hard turn in season 2 and made it super clear he isn't queer. Such a shame.
@@AnxietyRat I've had some book readers quite firmly explain to me that Benedict is *not* bi and that he *will* end up with Sophie. I understand that I wouldn't want a beloved book to be changed much, but chill. I really was shocked that Benedict was het. And yep, statistically, it's surprising that none of the Bridgerton children were queer in any way.
Great review! I completely agree with your analysis about Lady Danbury. I noticed right off the bat in season 1 that she was essentially "Mammy 2.0". The sassy, "strong" and quite typical black female side character with very little humanizing traits. As much as I love both actresses who play her, the development of her character is one-dimensional. I do have questions about where her kids are in the main Bridgerton series. Wouldn't her oldest son be Lord Danbury? And where is he in the main series? If he is single, he would be a HOT commodity on the marriage market! I would love to see her help her son navigate that. I want to see her actually interact with people in her OWN family.
I'm also Team Violet gets her GROOVE back. I think it might be fun/interesting if she hooked up with one of Anthony or Benedict's friends. But then dumps them because they want more. And she doesn't want to bring scandal to her family. Then she and Lady Danbury can have in common that they both got freaky with somebody inappropriate. I think that Violet and Lady Danbury became friends when trying to get Simon and Daphne together. I never got the sense that they were very close before that. My take on Lady Danbury and Lord Ledger is that they became friends and bonded over realizing that they both had been trapped in loveless marriages. He tried to resist her but ultimately couldn't. But then he wanted to protect her reputation which is why he cut if off. And he also didn't want to bring scandal to his own family. But I do kinda love your take on it. Dirty old man. But seriously, how could he resist her? She is too freaking gorgeous.
[long comment warning] miatta love your reactions as always!! i love that we get to see the older ladies talk about desire too, what a great way to address the myth that women's souls die when they lose their husband. i actually liked this episode a lot! it's rare that my opinions differ from yours but i think a lot of the show sets agatha up as someone fierce and with potential to achieve more in life but was always held back by her circumstances, she is a fighter but doesn't fully know who she is yet either and she's learning (hence her talk with coral about being brand new). charlotte entering into royalty allowed her to use the skills she had to leverage her access to the queen for personal gain, but she admits in this ep that she never saw herself as a friend to charlotte, only a subject. which was why their hand holding/her very personal advice was so powerful to me, because that was their true beginning (albeit late into the season) being vulnerable with charlotte about her life also would've felt out of character to me because she intentionally only ever approached their relationship politically (like the baby making stuff, the consummation affects the bipoc of the ton so she got involved, not as a loyal friend/sidekick) and even AFTER solidifying their friendship in ep 5, she felt too guilty to burden her with her issues when she knew charlotte had her own. i think that is a testament to both her empathy (for only seeing her as a pawn and not a person, and also might've felt she was exploiting their relationship) and stubborn determination to handle things on her own (asking a friend for help is hard! which charlotte scolds her for in ep 6) i think they truly become close in the years *following* this season. this spinoff lets us see how they meet inorganically, and we also get to understand them/their issues separately (charlotte and her german princess privilege, getting sold into the monarchy, george's health; agatha and her royal african heritage being undermined [true for africans back then], fighting for herself and bipoc ton, augusta) and they finally are on the same page by eps 5/6 where they help one another and learn to trust despite their differences (thrown together by augusta for 'diversity' but ultimately found true sisterhood/an honest bond) similar to george, it was a slow and complex build, and i'm glad they verbally decided to start fresh! her turning down adolphus was a bit disappointing but also empowering because she is dedicated to finding the self that was stolen from her at age 3. it was a freeing place to end off imo (also it reminded me of the rly short story "story of an hour" by kate chopin, i'd recommend reading!) hopefully we can see her discover her identity and find love (older adolphus can always come back again as a widow himself!but i also think people don't need romantic love to live perfectly happy lives) i'd looove to see how she started the den of iniquity and created a safe space for women to chill and shit talk their husbands haha
You better give me a great story about Violet, Shonda! Get her garden watered. Arsema is great.. i want to see her in more shows (plus.. yeah gorgeous). Good luck to all the writers and negotiators for the other unions.
Knowing the Smythe-Smiths musical reputation from the books, I was shocked they cast Lemar (a British singer with a lovely voice) as Lord Smythe-Smith 😂.
I have to say I’m not mad about lady Danbury and lord ledger’s relationship. I just wish it hadn’t ended the way it did. Had it been my choice it would have just been a sexual awakening for Agatha rather than a heartbreak where she loses someone she loves because he’s already married with a kid. I understand her want not to be married but I don’t see why she could not have gotten anything from her relationship with Adolphus either.
Adolphus firmly wanted a wife who would have children and do her wifely duties, and play nice with the younger wives of other aristocrats. Agatha realized that wasn't what she wanted.
@@lynnhettrick7588 I should have explained better. I didn’t want her to end up with Adolphus either but I wish Lady Danbury could have still gotten some enjoyment from their brief relationship. I mean she even said in present how her garden flourished after lord Danbury died so I wish they actually showed her having a good time instead of just one scene of her and lord ledger getting down almost immediately followed by having her heart broken in the next episode
@@pamayapaya Yes, agreed! It was sort of implied because of what older Lady Danbury said, but yeah, it would've been good to see them enjoying some time together before she turned him down.
8:34 From what I can tell when a member of the ton dies everyone else in the ton has to show up as well - or at least one member representing each family in the ton. Though I'm mostly basing this off the funeral scene in the musical 'A Gentleman's Guide to Love And Murder' (based of the dark British comedy 'Kind Hearts and Coronets - Alec Guiness's best movie since he plays 7 or 8 characters) where everyone is complaining that every time a member of this family dies they have to come to yet another funeral, and off season 1 episode 6 of 'Blandings' (British comedy series based off the book series by P.G. Wodehouse - one of the funniest authors ever to live, mostly wrote about upper class twits) where a Marquis's widow write to an Earl's family saying that she's going to visit them because 'she seeks comfort amongst those who know her', the Earl says "Do we know her?" and his sister who lives with him and takes social classes seriously replies "No but once again you miss the point. People like us know each other on principle." Then again maybe Lord Ledger just feels obligated to come as he was at Lord Danbury's party the night he died, or was just looking for an excuse to see Agatha again. Of course now that the King and Queen of England have publicly given their approval to 'the great experiment' none of the caucasian aristocrats have the nerve to not act as if they know all the new African-English aristocrats personally. They act as if they don't accept each other fully they'll be going against the King And Queen, who are above all of them and so risk not so much being traitors but being out of fashion - what a king and queen say goes, goes, no questions asked.
10:06 I had forgotten the old-fashioned term of "quickening." I first felt my babies flutter and move around 15 weeks, but sometimes with first pregnancies, it can be later on 16-20 weeks. Heavier pregnant people sometimes feel it later as well. A few people have told me that they felt it around 14 weeks, but it would be very rare to feel it much before 14 weeks. So the "quickening" would be sometime in the second trimester and in *most* cases, past the danger of miscarriage.
I read the book that they did for the Queen Charlotte series and I thought they handled Lady Danbury’s story much better in the book. Her husband was mainly glossed over and Spoiler Alert, certain characters were eliminated entirely. I would also be interested in having the Smythe Smiths in later series.
Fans of the Bridgerton books expect Violet to commit satī, whilst her husband would be encouraged to put himself back on the marriage mart the very next season.
I agree with you about Violet. She is a wonderful woman and absolutely deserves to experience love and passion again, just like everybody else. Why would anyone be against that?
Also, I agree with you about Lady Danbury. It's 100% marital rape.
the same reason Daphne was terrified about her reputation being ruined in season 1, sexism's ugly head is everywhere, and if a woman gets caught......well some women can handle every door being shut in their faces, people avoiding eye contact and only a handful of places allowing you to step inside. Some can handle it, and some can't.
100% support to the writers and actors!
Also, the wood work on your liquor cabinet is gorgeous.
Thank you!!! We moved into a 100 year old house and Im in LOVE!!!
I have seen so many people (mostly younger teen girls) be super against the Agatha/Ledger romance because they think he's old and unattractive 🙄 mans is FINE literally a slightly older Anthony so I'm happy you're giving a more legitimate reason for disliking them together rather than that spiel
But I like them together purely bc Agatha seems to be in control and happy for the first time in her life - even if in real life it'd be questionable, but yeah the break up is brutal but in the times had to happen and I believe he chose to end it to not risk besmirching HER reputation since he wants to see her thrive in this society
The moment with Charlotte at Agatha's house felt important to me because Agatha inspires Charlotte to finally take control in her position and be a boss bitch and go get her man
This episode is def more of a drag but I don't dislike it!
I’m not a teen, I’m a woman in my thirties and I’m against that relationship because I think they did Danbury dirty asf! She was married off at 3 to that awful man that r@ped her all day every day then they turned her into the mistress of another man who rejected her!!! Didn’t even have the balls to confront her and properly broke up with her. These men just used her. The only positive thing is that she got to experience sexual pleasure and agency, consensual sex with Ledger BUT he rejected her and went back to his racist white wife while Lady Danbury remained a secret. She’s the only character who did not experience a full blown relationship with unconditional, reciprocated love. She got rob! 😒😒😒😒😒
@@kellyattobrah3798 Everything you said is true yeah, (the teen part i meant in regards to finding ledger unattractive) i do hate that she didnt get a full love story with a happy ending but also I understand the writers could not do alot since we already know in present day bridgerton she is alone and not interested in marriage/love
@@GeorgiePorgie127 That's the way I saw it. We know how Lady Danbury ends up, so they needed a backstory that matches up with that. But I'm glad to know that she had love and wasn't lonely, and that her being unmarried was chosen by her. Ledger breaking up with her was for Lady Danbury's benefit. He could've selfishly kept up the affair and risk her reputation, but he did what had to be done, even though it broke both of their hearts.
@@lynnhettrick7588 yess exactly!
Lord Ledger is absolutely Anthony's granddaddy...
Also tiny fun fact about the word quickening if you are reading it and it's showing up during a spicy scene in a smut book.... It's a British slang for orgasm... But yes, when it's set in the context of pregnancy it mean to the first times you feel the baby move.
Hahahaha i had no idea!! Thank you!
Spoiler alert - do any of you remember the epilogue series or was it Violet in bloom, where she met this gentleman at a masquerade ball? And they danced??? That guy, I need that guy identified, and that guy needs to be her love interest. I don't understand why some people want Violet to live the rest of her days alone.
Is this a series of books? Or have i missed something
I mean some book readers might want it to happen because that's what happens in the source material. She never loves again. But the show has already changed things like they aged down lady Danbury, IIRC, from what book readers have told me she's like an elderly woman in her 70s in the books... So I mean as an non-book reader I would be totally okay with Violet having another love interest. The actress is ABSOLUTELY amazing so I would love to see more of her! But yeah... that's why book readers don't want it to happen...
And potentially why is there is a chance that it might not happen in the show. It IS contractual that all of the relationships that exist in the book series have to play out the way that it plays out in the books (Therefore no queer Bridgerton siblings... The books are painfully hetrosexual.. it's kind of baffling that out of ALL of the bridgertons siblings not even ONE of them is queer... That doesn't happen very often, statistically). Or that's the rumour anyway... But we aren't sure if this clause in the contract applies to just the main love stories or also for the side characters like Violet.
So the writers might be able to go off of the beaten track and have Violet have a love interest or they contractually might not be able to....
The reason why they were able to do it with Lady Danbury is that lady Danbury is very very much a side character, from what book readers have explained to me... and you don't actually know much about her life at all so the writers are kind of able to do ANYTHING with her story because there's not a lot of source material information that they have available and need to stick to.
@@AnxietyRat I *REALLY* wanted Benedict to be bi, but I know that he's required to be with who he ended up with in the books. Benedict reads as queer in the series.
@@lynnhettrick7588 same. And I've talked to book readers about this... And they have said that it actually would be very very easy for them to gender swap Sophie... So if the show really really wanted to... they could. It wouldn't be difficult. But again if the rumours about the contract are true they may contractually not be able to gender swap his love interest... But yeah I really thought that they were going for a Bi Benedict in season one but then they realized that a lot of people were thinking that and did a hard turn in season 2 and made it super clear he isn't queer. Such a shame.
@@AnxietyRat I've had some book readers quite firmly explain to me that Benedict is *not* bi and that he *will* end up with Sophie. I understand that I wouldn't want a beloved book to be changed much, but chill. I really was shocked that Benedict was het. And yep, statistically, it's surprising that none of the Bridgerton children were queer in any way.
Great review! I completely agree with your analysis about Lady Danbury. I noticed right off the bat in season 1 that she was essentially "Mammy 2.0". The sassy, "strong" and quite typical black female side character with very little humanizing traits. As much as I love both actresses who play her, the development of her character is one-dimensional. I do have questions about where her kids are in the main Bridgerton series. Wouldn't her oldest son be Lord Danbury? And where is he in the main series? If he is single, he would be a HOT commodity on the marriage market! I would love to see her help her son navigate that. I want to see her actually interact with people in her OWN family.
I'm also Team Violet gets her GROOVE back. I think it might be fun/interesting if she hooked up with one of Anthony or Benedict's friends. But then dumps them because they want more. And she doesn't want to bring scandal to her family. Then she and Lady Danbury can have in common that they both got freaky with somebody inappropriate. I think that Violet and Lady Danbury became friends when trying to get Simon and Daphne together. I never got the sense that they were very close before that. My take on Lady Danbury and Lord Ledger is that they became friends and bonded over realizing that they both had been trapped in loveless marriages. He tried to resist her but ultimately couldn't. But then he wanted to protect her reputation which is why he cut if off. And he also didn't want to bring scandal to his own family. But I do kinda love your take on it. Dirty old man. But seriously, how could he resist her? She is too freaking gorgeous.
I agree where are the true friends 😅
After LL got the 🍪 he got a conscience
LD & QC have a surface level friendship it seems 😢
We want Violet to be gardened! We want Violet to be gardened as much as possible!!!
[long comment warning] miatta love your reactions as always!! i love that we get to see the older ladies talk about desire too, what a great way to address the myth that women's souls die when they lose their husband. i actually liked this episode a lot! it's rare that my opinions differ from yours but i think a lot of the show sets agatha up as someone fierce and with potential to achieve more in life but was always held back by her circumstances, she is a fighter but doesn't fully know who she is yet either and she's learning (hence her talk with coral about being brand new). charlotte entering into royalty allowed her to use the skills she had to leverage her access to the queen for personal gain, but she admits in this ep that she never saw herself as a friend to charlotte, only a subject. which was why their hand holding/her very personal advice was so powerful to me, because that was their true beginning (albeit late into the season)
being vulnerable with charlotte about her life also would've felt out of character to me because she intentionally only ever approached their relationship politically (like the baby making stuff, the consummation affects the bipoc of the ton so she got involved, not as a loyal friend/sidekick) and even AFTER solidifying their friendship in ep 5, she felt too guilty to burden her with her issues when she knew charlotte had her own. i think that is a testament to both her empathy (for only seeing her as a pawn and not a person, and also might've felt she was exploiting their relationship) and stubborn determination to handle things on her own (asking a friend for help is hard! which charlotte scolds her for in ep 6) i think they truly become close in the years *following* this season. this spinoff lets us see how they meet inorganically, and we also get to understand them/their issues separately (charlotte and her german princess privilege, getting sold into the monarchy, george's health; agatha and her royal african heritage being undermined [true for africans back then], fighting for herself and bipoc ton, augusta) and they finally are on the same page by eps 5/6 where they help one another and learn to trust despite their differences (thrown together by augusta for 'diversity' but ultimately found true sisterhood/an honest bond) similar to george, it was a slow and complex build, and i'm glad they verbally decided to start fresh!
her turning down adolphus was a bit disappointing but also empowering because she is dedicated to finding the self that was stolen from her at age 3. it was a freeing place to end off imo (also it reminded me of the rly short story "story of an hour" by kate chopin, i'd recommend reading!) hopefully we can see her discover her identity and find love (older adolphus can always come back again as a widow himself!but i also think people don't need romantic love to live perfectly happy lives) i'd looove to see how she started the den of iniquity and created a safe space for women to chill and shit talk their husbands haha
You better give me a great story about Violet, Shonda! Get her garden watered.
Arsema is great.. i want to see her in more shows (plus.. yeah gorgeous).
Good luck to all the writers and negotiators for the other unions.
Knowing the Smythe-Smiths musical reputation from the books, I was shocked they cast Lemar (a British singer with a lovely voice) as Lord Smythe-Smith 😂.
I love your videos even though it cracks me up when you hate something and I love something. This was my favorite episode of the season lol.
The end of the video during Lady Danbury and Lord Ledger’s scene sped up with your cringing face has me losing my goddamn mind I am HOWLING 😂😂😂😂
Oh my gosh your hair looks so good!
Listen i love these locs!!!
I have to say I’m not mad about lady Danbury and lord ledger’s relationship. I just wish it hadn’t ended the way it did. Had it been my choice it would have just been a sexual awakening for Agatha rather than a heartbreak where she loses someone she loves because he’s already married with a kid. I understand her want not to be married but I don’t see why she could not have gotten anything from her relationship with Adolphus either.
Adolphus firmly wanted a wife who would have children and do her wifely duties, and play nice with the younger wives of other aristocrats. Agatha realized that wasn't what she wanted.
@@lynnhettrick7588 I should have explained better. I didn’t want her to end up with Adolphus either but I wish Lady Danbury could have still gotten some enjoyment from their brief relationship. I mean she even said in present how her garden flourished after lord Danbury died so I wish they actually showed her having a good time instead of just one scene of her and lord ledger getting down almost immediately followed by having her heart broken in the next episode
@@pamayapaya Yes, agreed! It was sort of implied because of what older Lady Danbury said, but yeah, it would've been good to see them enjoying some time together before she turned him down.
8:34 From what I can tell when a member of the ton dies everyone else in the ton has to show up as well - or at least one member representing each family in the ton. Though I'm mostly basing this off the funeral scene in the musical 'A Gentleman's Guide to Love And Murder' (based of the dark British comedy 'Kind Hearts and Coronets - Alec Guiness's best movie since he plays 7 or 8 characters) where everyone is complaining that every time a member of this family dies they have to come to yet another funeral, and off season 1 episode 6 of 'Blandings' (British comedy series based off the book series by P.G. Wodehouse - one of the funniest authors ever to live, mostly wrote about upper class twits) where a Marquis's widow write to an Earl's family saying that she's going to visit them because 'she seeks comfort amongst those who know her', the Earl says "Do we know her?" and his sister who lives with him and takes social classes seriously replies "No but once again you miss the point. People like us know each other on principle."
Then again maybe Lord Ledger just feels obligated to come as he was at Lord Danbury's party the night he died, or was just looking for an excuse to see Agatha again.
Of course now that the King and Queen of England have publicly given their approval to 'the great experiment' none of the caucasian aristocrats have the nerve to not act as if they know all the new African-English aristocrats personally. They act as if they don't accept each other fully they'll be going against the King And Queen, who are above all of them and so risk not so much being traitors but being out of fashion - what a king and queen say goes, goes, no questions asked.
10:06 I had forgotten the old-fashioned term of "quickening." I first felt my babies flutter and move around 15 weeks, but sometimes with first pregnancies, it can be later on 16-20 weeks. Heavier pregnant people sometimes feel it later as well. A few people have told me that they felt it around 14 weeks, but it would be very rare to feel it much before 14 weeks. So the "quickening" would be sometime in the second trimester and in *most* cases, past the danger of miscarriage.
I read the book that they did for the Queen Charlotte series and I thought they handled Lady Danbury’s story much better in the book. Her husband was mainly glossed over and Spoiler Alert, certain characters were eliminated entirely. I would also be interested in having the Smythe Smiths in later series.
Absolutely agree that Ledger and Agatha plot is horrible. It was extremely creepy
20:39 I admit, it's a bit contrary as far as scriptwriting goes but I get the feeling that she doesn't really have that many options.
yall gotta see what he looks like with a beard. KA-YOOOOT.
you are giving her too much young energy credit. She iS NOT GREIVING or MORNING...Lady Danbury is very much fully in her faculties..
Sorry, I totally disagree with your take on this episode, but we respect all opinions. Kudos to all the remarkable writers and actors, I am a fan.
Fans of the Bridgerton books expect Violet to commit satī, whilst her husband would be encouraged to put himself back on the marriage mart the very next season.
I agree with Beyonce.
Episode 5 was also my least favorite.
✊🏾❤
🎶💃🏽The worst episode of the season💃🏽🎶 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Retail workers need to Pickett as well