Judo black belt here! (yeah, I'm commenting on every judo video lol) Here you have a summary of the throws with names and videos 1:55 Sumi otoshi (corner drop) ua-cam.com/video/lLU9wv52ni0/v-deo.html&ab_channel=KODOKAN 2:30 he tried to set up a Sankaku jime (triangle choke) ua-cam.com/video/dh0QSmL0pEY/v-deo.html&ab_channel=MercuryuJudo 2:55 he tried a hip throw ua-cam.com/video/bPKwtB4lyOQ/v-deo.html&ab_channel=KODOKAN, but the wrestler guy jumped over it. In this case he could've gotten him hard with a Harai goshi (hip sweep) ua-cam.com/video/qTo8HlAAkOo/v-deo.html&ab_channel=KODOKAN. This harai goshi technique was created to prevent people from jumping to evade hip throws. 3:45 he used a combination of techniques (renraku waza). He attempted a ko uchi gari (inner reap) ua-cam.com/video/3Jb3tZvr9Ng/v-deo.html&ab_channel=KODOKAN, with the intention of getting a reaction out of the wrestler, then used o goshi (big hip throw) ua-cam.com/video/yhu1mfy2vJ4/v-deo.html&ab_channel=KODOKAN. This guy is good at hip throws, that combination was good! 5:09 I couldn't see the angle really well, it looks like either a harai goshi (hip sweep) ua-cam.com/video/qTo8HlAAkOo/v-deo.html&ab_channel=KODOKAN or o goshi (big hip throw) ua-cam.com/video/yhu1mfy2vJ4/v-deo.html&ab_channel=KODOKAN. Anyway, poor wrestler! If that was pavement and not grass he'd be in the hospital. Update: After seeing the angle, it's a yagura nage or front uchi mata, props to the commentator guy for knowing the name! (ua-cam.com/video/cf4aiBcvX0M/v-deo.html&ab_channel=ShintaroHigashi) I apologise, I didn't see the angle before the highlights. 5:30 wrestler attempted a kuchiki taoshi (inner single leg) ua-cam.com/users/results?search_query=kuchiki+taoshi+kodokan Judo guy sprawled. Next you can see how good wrestlers are at taking the back, judo guy was clueless about what was going on. 5:57 wrestler attempted a hadaka jime (rear naked choke) ua-cam.com/video/KH6qCjgLXJA/v-deo.html&ab_channel=fightTIPS Wrestlers are not good with submissions as they don't study them, so a miracle that Judo guy survived. Props to the wrestler! 9:08 it's similar to this ua-cam.com/video/jG4eVqSqT-U/v-deo.html&ab_channel=WayneSniffen It's a single leg grab to a leg sweep (ko soto gari) ua-cam.com/video/jeQ541ScLB4/v-deo.html&ab_channel=KODOKAN that on the pavement would hurt In my opinion, in a real fight with pavement floor the wrestling guy would've been destroyed. IDK about the rules here, so I'll stfu as I'm biased as hell! The difference between judo and wrestling is that judo is way more technical (Sambo for example is like Judo), wrestling has no submissions (hence them not being amazing at groundwork, that's where our bjj brothers excel) and it's way more dirty, they are not solely focused on the perfection of the throw, but getting the back and suplex. (wrestling brothers, correct me if I'm wrong, IDK a lot about wrestling). Here the wrestler and judoka didn't want to get into grappling due to respect for each other, hence the amount of strikes thrown. About the striking, in judo we study self defence in some dojos after you get to black belt. That self defence is a mix of throwing techniques, submissions and atemi waza. Atemi waza are striking techniques, most of gyms now are just that, gyms. A dojo focuses on tradition, a gym focuses only on competition (which is only 1/4th of traditional judo). We have four ways of practice in judo: Uchi komi (static practice, only throws at the end), Geiko (you throw, I throw, no resistance, rinse and repeat), Randori (combat, with no win philosophy) and Shiai (competition). In shiai they have different rules, for example many throws that need grabbing below waist are banned. Most of the gyms focus only on competition (no values whatsoever, the important stuff for them is to win win and win), to the point they almost don't train any groundwork (ne waza means ground and techniques) and they miss more than 10 throws that need to grab under the waist. I was lucky to study in a traditional dojo, my traditional sensei was one of the few growndwork specialists in Spain (also a 5th degree black belt). I trained 50% groundwork 50% throws (hanging out with another judo peers I was tapping them thanks to my sensei's teachings, huge shoutout to him). When you say we look down on our bjj brothers, some people do! I don't. Bjj comes from master Maeda, who taught kosen judo (judo that specialises mostly on ne waza, many bjj people roll with them and are amazed) to the Grazie family. Then they mastered the chokes and rolling with groundwork. Traditional judo is not bad at ne waza, but competition judo .... welp. I hope this was useful!
First of all, I want to say that this is a great breakdown. Thank you for sharing the timestamps and the names of the techniques in question. Some I recognized on the spot, others I didn't. Your gym sounds great. I wouldn't say wrestling is inherently less technical, but athleticism is certainly selected for at a very high level in the sport. It's important to remember that there are a very wide variety of takedowns within wrestling, especially depending on the style of wrestling being performed and the suplex is just one of many. Wrestling -- depending on the style -- *does* have some groundwork, but the reason people believe it doesn't is because Judo newaza and BJJ have shaped everyone's preconceived notions about what groundfighting is. The Olympic styles of wrestling (freestyle & Greco-Roman) place a slightly lesser emphasis on groundwork compared to American folkstyle. In the Olympic styles, after getting taken down an athlete often focuses on rolling to their belly and flattening himself out in order to avoid being rolled over and losing "exposure points" to the other wrestler. The other guy only has about ten seconds (IIRC) to expose them after which point both wrestlers are stood back up by the ref. Obviously this doesn't lead to many extended, technical exchanges on the mat, but it's certainly something and in fact some nations' freestyle wrestlers tend to be better in those positions than others. This is still more than what is contained in many folk wrestling styles throughout the world like Sumo, Senegalese wrestling, Glima, Mongolian wrestling, or Shuai Jiao where the match ends (or is paused) the moment one opponent touches the ground with anything other than the soles of their feet. However, folkstyle wrestling here in the United States is a bit of an exception. It's the style of wrestling which is competed in at the middle school, high school, and university level -- in addition to various private clubs. I won't get into all of its nuances that differentiate it from the Olympic styles, but one of the big ones is that there *are* extended exchanges on the mats. Indeed, one of the focuses in collegiate wrestling is actually accruing "riding time" where one wrestler is in control of the other in a dominant position on the ground, yet isn't quite able to score the fall (i.e. pin). Furthermore, the ref is also far less keen to stand the two wrestlers up in folkstyle than in an Olympic match. This effectively means that they will often allow two athletes to go at it for an extended exchange of wrestling techniques. As such, this dynamic leads to a situation in which the "bottom wrestler", i.e. the one who is on the defensive *must* know how to "wrestle up" and launch offense/reversals from an inferior position or else risk losing the match on points. Again, it's a very different style of "groundfighting" from what you'll see BJJ or Judo newaza... but it's there in its own way. Of course the the latter two tend to be far more refined and inclusive, notably because they teach athletes how to operate off one's back and actually include full-fledged submission knowledge*. But I just wanted to put it out there because wrestling is far more than high-amplitude takedowns and athleticism at the end of the day :D FYI I'm a BJJ guy who loves Judo as an outsider looking in (never gotten the chance to train it unfortunately)... though I still kick myself for not joining the wrestling team back in school. * Submissions are _technically_ illegal in amateur wrestling, but sometimes they happen anyway during a match (i.e. wrestlers getting choked unconscious while caught in a given hold around their neck/shoulders). Furthermore, since freestyle and folkstyle both have their roots in Catch Wrestling which was 100% an art with a whole system of various submissions much like BJJ and Judo, some of that institutional knowledge remains in their DNA. For instance, look up videos of the "hammerlock" in high school wrestling. When it became a non-submission art, the hammerlock transitioned to a pinning technique that you're only supposed to use for leverage and theoretically can't move your opponent's arm beyond 90 degrees. In a submission ruleset, nothing's stopping you from cranking that thing as you would a kimura or americana. Likewise, the spladle/banana split can be used as a submission by yanking on a leg and pulling an opponent's groin muscles apart if they lack flexibility. Furthermore, Eddie Bravo's infamous Twister submission is actually derived from a pinning technique he learned in high school wrestling known as the "guillotine" (not to be confused with the front headlock choke). Look it up.
@@SaftonYT Thanks a lot for your comment, I'm learning a lot! Mad respect for you bjj guys! 💪Yeah, when I mean less technical is compared to our judo standards (a throw has some steps to it, unbalancing, technique and fall; also throws have been categorized and studied in depth); I agree that wrestling is way more physical, that's why I say less technical! Wrestling guys are strong as hell!
Sambo guy here Wrestling does have submissions just look at catch wrestling you have the arm bar Japanese arm bar straight arm bar hammerlock bar hammerlock wrist lock top wrist lock double wrist lock just to name a few and wrestling is very technical just try rolling with a high level wrestling its very hard clearly this judo guy is more skilled than the wrestler but that does not mean judo > wrestling it just means this guy more skilled that the other I mean to be fair you did say you are biased as hell but even so there need to try and downplay wrestling we are all just grabbling at the end of day
@@dariodesansebastian That's fair. I think part of that is that Judo started as a formal, curriculum-based martial art in the Kodokan whereas wrestling always been a more of an... informal, for lack of a better term, combat sport. That being said, while a wrestling coach may not use the term kuzushi I suspect that if you went and attended a wrestling practice you would see him walking his students through the steps of a given takedown and showing them when and where the unbalancing happens. It might not come across as "academic" as BJJ and Judo and he wouldn't use the same phrase, but the same point would get across. It's probably fair to say that wrestling practitioners can get away with more than judoka simply due to the greater average level of athleticism of its worldwide talent pool. What I mean by this is that while many Olympic judoka are absolutely freak athletes much like their Olympic wrestling counterparts, there are a lot of Judo hobbyists... good luck finding "hobbyist wrestlers". By that same token, I think in some ways you might find some more similarities in how one of those "competitive Judo gyms" you mentioned run a practice as compared to a wrestling club versus how your own traditional academy runs a practice. Just food for thought! Thank you again.
@@jdacata5126 It's weird because American judoka are particularly good at newaza, as in nearly 50% of mat time is on the ground. So it's interesting seeing non-american judoka being subpar on the ground.
Idk, Id call it a draw. Wrestler never connected with any strikes and only really had that one moment of taking the back at the end of the round. Judo guy prevented several take down attempts by the wrestler. It was pretty even all told.
@@JayV98 He did absolutely no damage on the ground, I would say after every fancy throw he would just shell up and wrestler would hammer him from strikes on the bottom. Not to mention, the wreslter actually worked to do damage when he was on top. Wrestler absolutely wins here under the unified rules.
@@mr.okanefan3218you know how significant is a take down ? There fighting on the grass if they were on concrete the wrestler would be dead he got ragdolled the whole fight and connected like 2 times
5:35 hard to catch here but the wrestler peeks through and arm drags which is how he takes the back. wrestlers are used to getting sprawled on and put in front cover. Elbow passes, arm drags, and hip heists are common ways to get past it, and since the judoka isn't used to a front cover position because of the lack of lower body takedowns, the wrestler got the advantage and took the back
I think we all get confused with the term "wrestler." Greco, Freestyle, and Folkstyle Wrestling are all substantially different - particularly when it comes to ground fighting. Everything you mentioned would be old-hat to an American Folkstyle/Collegiate Wrestler if it weren't for the fact that he was doing it all from Guard. I'd guess he learned his groundwork in BJJ/MMA classes... His groundwork was actually fairly solid - but stylistically - nothing like that of what a Freestyle Wrestler (which is what his "base" is most likely) would have. Guard work, getting *two* deep boots in instead of one for a leg ride, and slipping under the arm to take the back from guard are BJJ habits - not Folk Wrestling - and certainly not Freestyle. Freestyle Wrestlers might have phenomenal takedowns (not demonstrated in the fight however) - but their groundwork is usually limited to turn-overs, rolls, pins, chest-wraps, and gut wrenches / reverse lifts. I think a lot of these Fight Breakdowns are misleading - these guys all cross train for sure.
@@lamesurfer1015 What are you talking about? That look away drag is drilled all the time to get out of front cover. It is one of the most common moves if you are in fromt cover. He 100percent learned that from wrestling. Not mma or smth else.
@@fingearsring9833 Did you read what I said about the difference between Free and Folk wrestling? Europeans don't practice American folk wrestling. They get some folk wrestling in MMA classes, if they are lucky to have a coach that knows that.
I have this theory of why grapplers tend to strike with each other, and why strikers tend to grapple each other. Since they both share a similar fighting style they might think it may take a long time to finish the fight, so they test to see if their opponent's weak point is weaker than theirs. Edit: The 30 seconds on the ground is both a blessing and a curse for Judokas, the blessing is if you get good in Newaza you become really fast on the ground, and really good in the transition between throw and ground fighting. The curse is there are some Judokas who just prefer to turtle instead of engaging in ground fighting, and therefore they don't use the opportunity to get better on the ground, so even if they are brown belt or so, their Newaza sucks. This is also bad for the people who do want to get better at ground fighting because it gets harder to get better at Newaza if the level of opponents aren't up to par.
My theory has always been that it's also an unconscious way of them sorta protecting(?) their pride in either grappling or striking. As in, if you guys are both grapplers and you engage as a grappler but lose to your opponent's grappling, that's demoralizing on another level. But if you engage in striking and lose to your opponent's striking, you still have that little bit of an exit strategy cos you can say, "well, if I grappled, I would've won bc my grappling is superior to my opponent's grappling" lol. It's like, people don't actually want to confront the upper limit of their best art and be bested at it. Iono if that makes sense haha
@@FightCommentary It's weird - but it's also a country thing. The US, Brazil, and Japan are really well known for their Newaza, for example. They rarely skip an opportunity to go for a pin, turnover, choke, or joint lock. Countries like Mongolia, France, and South Korea are prone to skipping out Newaza all together and focus on standing technique. Its also a gender thing too. Female competitors typically have more newaza wins. In all, almost 50% of the wins in Judo are newaza - but a vast amount of them come from transitioning into a pin from a throw and then retaining that pin for 10 to 20 seconds - which is a lot harder and more important than people give it credit for... I can't say this enough: *people, even Judoka, really sleep on transition and pin retention.* Imagine being able to slam the other guy and landing yourself in a dominant position (past their guard)! To me, It's like sleeping on cutting angles in boxing...
Judoka pulled off a couple of good throws, but clammed up and went completely inactive once he got to ground. zero attempts made to pass guard, no offense from the guard - in every case he simply clamshelled and buried his forehead in the wrestler's chest and took small shots to the side of the head (and a couple good elbows on the top of the head) before simply disengaging and standing up. He looked confident with the throws, but had no idea how to finish or what to do once he was on the ground. Not even enough instinct there to posture up and throw some punches from the top position, never mind pass guard and get into side control. Wrestler on the other hand was a bit stiff, tried to throw some decent strikes but was just a bit slow, HOWEVER - he looked very comfortable off his back (uncommon for wrestlers) - specifically, every time he ended up getting thrown he moved immediately to shift his hips and successfully recover guard, and then planted his feet on the judoka's hips to control him, keep him back and low on his chest, and continually harassed the judoka with small punches and elbow to the head. The backtake was VERY smooth and the judoka made no attempt to turn and face his opponent or even fight to get an underhook and stop the backtake - in fact he just turtled and covered up, expecting to take punches, which he then obviously did, since he did nothing to stop it! Then the wrestler makes a decent attempt at an RNC, so big points there. Round three was much of the same, except now judoka is hesitant and fails to win the clinch, eating a knee in the process. The wrestler keeps trying to land that wheel kick but he's just not comfortable with the range of it, so he keeps missing the whole time. Regardless, the wrestler landed way more strikes, tons of good solid leg kicks, and ever when he got thrown and ended up on the bottom, he still got the better of the exchange, landing more strikes and dominating from the bottom such that the judoka failed to even attempt any offense and instead just stood back up. This one goes to the wrestler, however, he was gassing hard at the end of the fight and needs to get his cardio on point - nothing that happened over the course of those three rounds should have been enough to tire out a young fit wrestler like that.
Imo judoka should hone their throws, get some ground game going, but they should master striking from the clinch and ground and pound. Those throws will make so much more of an impact after serious blows were dealt. Judoka need to train their atemi-waza or else their throws will suffer in effectiveness
True! Just like with Aikido, the old Judo masters did mention that you should know you Atemi Waza (striking techniques) if you wan't to be a real Judoka.
I was thinking that too: "if he only knew a little Aikido or AikiJuJutsu." Or a bent arm bar (Not sure the Waza name. I think it's from BJJ, but probably first was in Japan".
It's not just the short time you get on the mat that's working against judo, it's all sorts of things. The fact that you can score via pins, for instance, incentivizes playing it safe on the ground in a way you can't afford to in MMA or jiujitsu. A ton of submissions are just off limits in judo as well, so your game is heavily restricted to chokes, armbars, and shoulder locks (which are technically illegal, but some shoulder locks are considered arm locks for reasons that have never been made clear to me). Then there's the gi element, which can pretty dramatically change your ground game because certain grips are out and you obviously can't get gi chokes, a huge part of judo's arsenal. And, of course, the most obvious, that most judo matches end when the opponent hits the mat to begin with, so no ground game is even required. That said, judo's submission game is sufficient for most people, it's just not going to cut it (not on its own, anyway) for MMA. When you're up against someone who isn't trained on the ground, you can usually tap them with ease with judo alone.
I think certain MMA promotions, especially the UFC have been trying to stack the rules and incentives away from submissions. The long grind on the ground isn't very crowd-friendly. In the early days submission artists reigned supreme. But nowadays, particularly with the rules being the way they are, "wrestle boxers" are king. That said, the key skill that a "wrestle boxer" has in his/her arsenal isn't submission, but the ability to pin and then strike (GnP). The pin part of that is particularly important - and that's one thing Judo doesn't sleep on. Even the most lazy-on-the-ground Judoka should know their way around pins (unless their school sucked). That said, I don't think that Judo's incentive to capitalize on the pin is the liability in MMA - I think its Judo's incentive to turtle / guard and stall. This is where American Folkstyle Wrestling, particularly with its bottom wrestling is simply unmatched - even by BJJ. No other grappling art teaches you to how stand up when someone is trying to hold you down. Just this part alone is easily 25% of your average Folk Wrestler's training time.
You make some valid points but I think some invalid as well. The emphasis in Judo competition is Tachi waza (stand up) but certain athletes and countries style gravitate to Newaza (ground work ) and it’s very high level but the implementation is different then BJJ, it’s really only the modern day no gi competitions we are seeing a huge shift in BJJ, where throwing techniques and takedowns have become necessary because new rules won’t allow guard pulling etc. Judo athletes have prioritized training around the rules within international competition and this makes sense as a professional athlete within the confines of Judo but if you are a Judoka going into other competitions (which isn’t that common) then you have to familiarize yourself with rule sets and modifications. When you say Judo itself won’t cut it in mma that is just silliness like I said you have to modify it obviously without the jacket which jiujitsu and sambo did as well, but you also have to keep in mind there is only a handful of elite judoka who have transitioned into mma and many times the number of high level BJJ practitioners and high level wrestlers that made the switch into mma. Judo is an isolationist sport you can’t compete in other organizations or combat sports and be ranked within the organization so the incentive to go into mma and risk your entire profession athlete career that you have probably been doing since you were a kid is just not worth it much of the time. Also to the point Judo doesn’t cut it in mma I must contest this with the athletes: Rhonda rousey she used Judo to great effect, what did her in was her inflated striking skills and horrible coach. Hirata itsuki Ayaka Miura Shinya aoki Karo parisyan (no gi no problem) Fedor emelianenko Hidehiko yoshida (early mma with Royce gracie) The other thing I want to address is if BJJ is the best for MMA why is it wrestlers and sambo guys who are dominating? My theory is Jiujitsu also has its flaws in competition the grappling becomes much different when you add strikes in a lot of the way you pull guard or certain stalling positions are not advantageous with a high pressure pass system like wrestling, Judo or sambo.
I also would like to say you are better off with a handful of techniques that you have refined and polished to a high degree then to have a bunch of techniques that you are ok at
Also the criticism of pinning techniques makes sense only in a grappling only rule set as soon as you add strikes pins are amazing, you can safely punch someone and not worry about any retaliation.
I think the best way to get used to adding a kick is to drill always adding a kick at the end of any combo. It doesn't cover the whole thing but does get you used to having it in there.
As the great John Danaher said, the sport of Judo judges you based on the throw. Wrestling and BJJ judge you based on the RESULT of the throw. I did wrestling and BJJ for a few years and outgrappled judokas who've been doing it for over a decade, which is sad to me because judo was king until the olympics watered down
@@911Salvage "Unproven" you know what's proven? Wrestling and BJJ, very successful in MMA which is the closest to real combat with effective moves. You have Ronda Rousey, that's about it and even that was in the 90s era for women's MMA. Judo ends at the landing, the other two are about finishing from that or at least being in good position. Do the math
Love this guys commentary, agree with the Judo doing more Newaza but at the end of the day if it’s a competition sport/gym they’re going to train competition specific
6:43 that throw was an Ura Nage variation. A nogi Uchi Mata is done with an over hook as the main grip. Also the wrestler was able to hit a duck under after getting sprawled on which is how he was able to take the back from turtle. Great grappling
Yagura nage, front uchi Mata. If you look at it and break it down, it's an inner thigh reap that throws, it's just done face to face, father than by turning the back
Guys could go back and forth on this all day. We have a second dan Judoka where I train who absolutely destroyed a collegiate wrestler. But he also threw the wrestler on a tile floor and proceeded to get top control while the guy was still trying to get his breath back. Additionally, we train self-defense Judo, which seems to have a lot more newaza than sport judo.
judo guy really needs to upgrade his ne waza, they were equaly good at ground but standing grappling judoka was better thats the problem with judo schools / clubs these days is that they don't focus on ne waza or they ignore it
I agree with the description here. The throws were great, and the Judoka gave himself plenty of opportunity to do something on the ground that he just never did anything with. If your gameplan is surrounding around taking your opponent down, then you *must* have something to do when you inevitably go to the ground. Letting them stand up is another opportunity for them to hurt you. Judoka's biggest mistake is just that: No ground grappling = no path to victory vs. a remotely competent grappler. Side note: A couple of things. First, your question about "Ne-waza" To my understanding, "Waza" means skill or practice. Occasionally the sensei's will call out "Tachi-waza" and that means sparring but only standup. The same for "ne-waza" and to my research "Ne" means ground in this context. Second, your assessment on the throw at 6:38 It looks more like Hani-Goshi than Uchi-Mata. Mostly because there isn't a reap of the inner thigh. Judoka uses his leg like a shelf as he springs Uke up. And for the record on Hani-Goshi: Hani-Goshi is a tough throw to get in Randori even in the gi. If you look at the stats in competition as to how many times Hani-Goshi is attempted/successful, it's usually close to 0. So to see a Hani-goshi in MMA without a Gi for control really tells me the skill level of the Judoka.
Its actually much easier to hit judo throws in spaces where judo is NOT the primary practice do to the kuzushi principle. Its easier to of balance someone when they are throwing kicks, punches, etc. Especially when that principle isn't explained to them. So for the case of hani goshi, you will see much simpler waza (techniques) bring complete in high level judo because it's the simplicity that really works.
It's a front uchi mata or Yagura nage. ua-cam.com/video/cf4aiBcvX0M/v-deo.html&ab_channel=ShintaroHigashi In hane goshi uke's balance is on the other foot. I thought it was a harai goshi from that angle, but in the hightlights I saw I was wrong! Yagura nage is way more difficult than hane goshi, so I definitely agree! This guy's level is around second degree black belt (13 to 15 years of judo)
@@danqfrank44 100% agree. Even mildly competent judoka learn to guard their posture and balance in randori and shiai to the point that you have to get them moving quite substantially to throw them (opening you up for counters in the meantime). They also get very good at grip fighting, which negates any attempt to throw. In another context, like MMA for example, the attention is taken away from the grip fighting / balance retention. It's allowed me to pull off throws (particularly Harai Goshis) that I would never have dreamed of doing in Randori. Same in No-Gi BJJ or Wrestling - where people are pre-occupied with guarding their legs. In fact, I think I've hit Ippon Seoi Nage and Harai Goshi more in No-Gi situations in the last 2 years than I've ever hit in the 14 years I've done Judo.
There's no time limit for ne waza in judo so long as the fight is progressing but the ref will stop the fight after approximately 6 seconds if no progress is being made but if you look at some of the best ne waza judokas they can spend minutes on the ground at a time as they transition from one technique to another but they have to work really fast BJJ is more passive in this regard and often they can wait for their opponent to slip up before capitalising on the mistake. In Judo on the ground you have to make things happen fast or you get stood back up.
this left me with a doubt... considering these 3 points for self-defense 1- defend takedowns 2- knowing how to fall without getting hurt if caught 3- when you are underneath the aggressor defend yourself and get up quickly which art would look best for these 3 points if you had to choose just one? Judo, BJJ, Folkstyle wrestling, Greco-Roman wrestling, Freestyle wrestling, etc...
@@Todo_fighting Yes, sambo, kudo, or just "MMA" would be the best because they cover all possibilities and encompass striking, standup grappling, and ground fighting. Out of the pure grappling arts I think catch wrestling would be best since it includes standup as well as ground fighting and submissions, all without gi. Individual BJJ and Judo gyms could be up there as well if the the BJJ gym practices standup and the Judo dojo practices ne waza.
Go for wrasslin, most bang for the buck. Because it focuses on control. IF you had to choose. BJJ does have some smooth reversals when you do fall down.. and chokes are great on drunk idiots if you need to shut someone down.
5:33 great chain wrestling. This is why you train techniques like the peek-out or in this case, the sucker drag. Judoka may have sprawled but one of the first things you learn in wrestling is to keep moving and chain attacks.
In the 2nd period, wrestler was able to control the elbow to a ‘Sucker Drag’ to get back control. So the move is called a Sucker Drag. That’s one of the first moves you learn in youth wrestling when someone has you in the front headlock position. Hope that helps!
I would have liked to see the judoka go to a full closed guard with a clinch before going for his submission attempts. An overhook clinch or a shoulder pinch clinch would have gotten him that armbar or triangle
In Judo it is important to train transitioning from a throw into a submission, something that BJJ kind of fails at. Judo throws will often give you a arm bar.
Man people get way, way too hung up on distinction. The dirty secret is that at some level of skill and experience, Judo and Wrestling (Free and Greco) all start to blend together.
5:31 come onnnnnn you dont say something then suddenly stopped now you got me interested about that neck exercise and decompress stuff. can you talk about that next video or something im so curious now.
The reason the judoka flattened out when the wrestler gif the hooks in is because the wrestler was using the hooks to flatten him out it’s called a leg ride in wrestling and if you’ve ever been leg ridden you know it works
If you're a judoka you should work hard on your ground game as well. Ground work is underrated because everyone wants to win with a big throw but if you can get above your competition on the ground (which is not that hard nowadays) you can win much more.
Fellow Judoka, please stop with the superiority complex with BJJ. BJJ would destroy most of us in a sport setting. The earlier you acknowledge that, the better the Judo community would be. It’s not a good look for us. Be humble, respectful, and show the world Judo isn’t about drama but the betterment of the community.
I remember during a wrestling match a guy was in position for a double leg take down before the match started once the ref said go he instantly launched to them and took him down
I think i see how the wrestler got the judokas back. It looks like he slipped during the sprawl and flatted out. At the point the wrestler took advantage
The only way Judo wins is if he knows the old style judo that has the wrestling in it also Or if the wrestler is not a good combat wrestler In regards to getting good at punching and kicking and takedowns You need to do them all together without sparring and hurting yourself, which is a creative endeavor You can start by bringing your knees up and your arms up like you’re blocking someone that’s coming at you with arms and legs block with your legs and your arms and then start punching and kicking back This is really a basic comment, but there you go
I disagree with the sentiment that wrestlers are stiff at 3:25, as someone who does both wrestling and judo, you cannot obtain high or even moderate level skill in either not being fluid. also at 4:10 another untrue statement. judo vs folkstyle, yes judo wins the throw competition. judo vs greco-roman or any well rounded wrestler who trains upper body takedowns too? I would not be so sure.
2:04 full contact point fighting makes you pretty good at that, or American style kickboxing (the ruleset for competition is straight up just awful but for practicing combos is great) also, ne waza (寝技) literally just means lay down technique, or floor technique.
When you know the other guy can grapple you might not want to just rush in and grab any random thing. You want to set it up or at least wait for a good grip or shot opportunity so you dont waste time and energy or even jump at something half-assed and get reversed.
You seem very unknowledgeable of wrestling. Wrestlers arent generally stiff they have people attacking their legs the whole time and they have a much more versatile in standup with picks and HC
Around 6:50 yeah I would call that a Uchi mata. Not exactly text book but it looks over the hip, leg extending to secure the throw. Close enough, and dude what a great example of why throws are useful
These guys are pretty good but the best fighters are those who have more than just good striking and grappling skills. The thing that sets them apart is the ability to transition seamlessly from one technique to another. For example, if you throw someone onto the ground, you have to think ahead and know what position they will end up in so you can immediately move into the next technique without first having to look for an opening. That opening will already be here in your mind's eye. Striking combinations or striking and grappling combinations need to flow from one to the other. Do not just strike without first thinking a couple of steps ahead. You have to be prepared if the technique does not work, say if the strike does not land or the throw countered. Do not just bounce around the ring and firing off the first technique that comes into your head, especially if you do not have anything to follow it up with such as a reposte when they counter. This wastes energy and leaves you open to counter attack. You must have a game plan to succeed.
Judo has about 7 "forbidden" throws in all competitive sports. If this was a different situation a broken femur, ribcage or neck won't matter to you, as what style was used
Throughout Judo competitions I only see those who skip on ne-waza opporotunities and those who force the same techniques in ne-waza each time they get on the ground
Finally - some dudes fighting it out on grass! Safety first. I just can't watch all these idiots fighting on concrete. Like they have a death wish or something.
if nothing else, I will say your ability to talk about something which you clearly have no clue about, while being completely wrong over and over again is honestly impressive. I love your confidence 😂. red didn't "give up his back" @5:36, blue used a common front head lock counter called the sucker drag. to answer your question @6:45, that was a variation of the uchi mata using an underhook/bodylock. it's a variation, but different enough to warrant it's own name. where I train we call it a front uchi. I don't know the Japanese terminology, sorry. you know what's even more cringe than jiu jitsu? (which is not an easy thing, so congrats). being completely obsessed with it to the point that you go out of your way to voice-over/commentate fights while making it completely obvious you've never trained anything in your life, AND THEN calling the thing you're obviously obsessed with cringe 😂. also, I don't make youtube videos so I'm no expert, but maybe don't give advice about things you've never done before? that's wild 🤣
I don't know much about judo and wrestling. In my high school days I was into Kung Fu and Tae Kwon Do. But now I'm more into boxing and kickboxing. That's all I can find to spar with in these days lol. But l found this match okay. Not bad at all.👍
the judoka was good, but he lost this fight, he was completely helpless on the ground and this vaunted judo? Then everything is sad there were no serious throws, but he was actually destroyed in the stalls and only the time of the end of the second round saved him.
As a lifelong Judo practitioner (22 years) , modern Judo is cringe, they have put so many restrictions on it it became more of a dance than full contact sport.
Just my opinion, i think the best combination i could think of is: Jiujitsu for ground work Mix of muay thai and savate for kicks Boxing and kenpo or pancrase for hands I also think any actual fighters need to have a minimum of jiujitsu and muay thai. I just love watching how different fighters mix styles and make them work. I really enjoy watching old bas rutten, buakaw, and saenchai fight footage.
Too many styles. Just pick 1-2 and add whatever is missing later. No need for both Muay Thai and Savate and boxing and kempo etc. Jiujitsu is obviously an excellent form of grappling and there are others as well. Find what works for you brother
I did't see wrestler. Even blue don't look like wrestler, even position not same as wrestler stays. I have KMS (candidat of master of sport) by Judo and I know how wrestler look like and how wrestler fights. What I have seen here that to far to be a wrestler.
As judo white belt (feel the level) i feel completley embarrassed of Selim's ground work. In our Dojo we do 4 minutes x 4 rounds of ground with focus on the technic (so basically around half of all Randori are groundwork) but this guy... Have to admit he's got some good throws tho
Judo black belt here! (yeah, I'm commenting on every judo video lol)
Here you have a summary of the throws with names and videos
1:55 Sumi otoshi (corner drop) ua-cam.com/video/lLU9wv52ni0/v-deo.html&ab_channel=KODOKAN
2:30 he tried to set up a Sankaku jime (triangle choke) ua-cam.com/video/dh0QSmL0pEY/v-deo.html&ab_channel=MercuryuJudo
2:55 he tried a hip throw ua-cam.com/video/bPKwtB4lyOQ/v-deo.html&ab_channel=KODOKAN, but the wrestler guy jumped over it. In this case he could've gotten him hard with a Harai goshi (hip sweep) ua-cam.com/video/qTo8HlAAkOo/v-deo.html&ab_channel=KODOKAN. This harai goshi technique was created to prevent people from jumping to evade hip throws.
3:45 he used a combination of techniques (renraku waza). He attempted a ko uchi gari (inner reap) ua-cam.com/video/3Jb3tZvr9Ng/v-deo.html&ab_channel=KODOKAN, with the intention of getting a reaction out of the wrestler, then used o goshi (big hip throw) ua-cam.com/video/yhu1mfy2vJ4/v-deo.html&ab_channel=KODOKAN. This guy is good at hip throws, that combination was good!
5:09 I couldn't see the angle really well, it looks like either a harai goshi (hip sweep) ua-cam.com/video/qTo8HlAAkOo/v-deo.html&ab_channel=KODOKAN or o goshi (big hip throw) ua-cam.com/video/yhu1mfy2vJ4/v-deo.html&ab_channel=KODOKAN. Anyway, poor wrestler! If that was pavement and not grass he'd be in the hospital. Update: After seeing the angle, it's a yagura nage or front uchi mata, props to the commentator guy for knowing the name! (ua-cam.com/video/cf4aiBcvX0M/v-deo.html&ab_channel=ShintaroHigashi) I apologise, I didn't see the angle before the highlights.
5:30 wrestler attempted a kuchiki taoshi (inner single leg) ua-cam.com/users/results?search_query=kuchiki+taoshi+kodokan Judo guy sprawled. Next you can see how good wrestlers are at taking the back, judo guy was clueless about what was going on.
5:57 wrestler attempted a hadaka jime (rear naked choke) ua-cam.com/video/KH6qCjgLXJA/v-deo.html&ab_channel=fightTIPS Wrestlers are not good with submissions as they don't study them, so a miracle that Judo guy survived. Props to the wrestler!
9:08 it's similar to this ua-cam.com/video/jG4eVqSqT-U/v-deo.html&ab_channel=WayneSniffen It's a single leg grab to a leg sweep (ko soto gari) ua-cam.com/video/jeQ541ScLB4/v-deo.html&ab_channel=KODOKAN that on the pavement would hurt
In my opinion, in a real fight with pavement floor the wrestling guy would've been destroyed. IDK about the rules here, so I'll stfu as I'm biased as hell!
The difference between judo and wrestling is that judo is way more technical (Sambo for example is like Judo), wrestling has no submissions (hence them not being amazing at groundwork, that's where our bjj brothers excel) and it's way more dirty, they are not solely focused on the perfection of the throw, but getting the back and suplex. (wrestling brothers, correct me if I'm wrong, IDK a lot about wrestling). Here the wrestler and judoka didn't want to get into grappling due to respect for each other, hence the amount of strikes thrown.
About the striking, in judo we study self defence in some dojos after you get to black belt. That self defence is a mix of throwing techniques, submissions and atemi waza. Atemi waza are striking techniques, most of gyms now are just that, gyms. A dojo focuses on tradition, a gym focuses only on competition (which is only 1/4th of traditional judo).
We have four ways of practice in judo: Uchi komi (static practice, only throws at the end), Geiko (you throw, I throw, no resistance, rinse and repeat), Randori (combat, with no win philosophy) and Shiai (competition). In shiai they have different rules, for example many throws that need grabbing below waist are banned. Most of the gyms focus only on competition (no values whatsoever, the important stuff for them is to win win and win), to the point they almost don't train any groundwork (ne waza means ground and techniques) and they miss more than 10 throws that need to grab under the waist. I was lucky to study in a traditional dojo, my traditional sensei was one of the few growndwork specialists in Spain (also a 5th degree black belt). I trained 50% groundwork 50% throws (hanging out with another judo peers I was tapping them thanks to my sensei's teachings, huge shoutout to him).
When you say we look down on our bjj brothers, some people do! I don't. Bjj comes from master Maeda, who taught kosen judo (judo that specialises mostly on ne waza, many bjj people roll with them and are amazed) to the Grazie family. Then they mastered the chokes and rolling with groundwork. Traditional judo is not bad at ne waza, but competition judo .... welp.
I hope this was useful!
By any chance you know and judo dojos in Barcelona i recently moved here and doing muay Thai but miss j7do
First of all, I want to say that this is a great breakdown. Thank you for sharing the timestamps and the names of the techniques in question. Some I recognized on the spot, others I didn't. Your gym sounds great.
I wouldn't say wrestling is inherently less technical, but athleticism is certainly selected for at a very high level in the sport. It's important to remember that there are a very wide variety of takedowns within wrestling, especially depending on the style of wrestling being performed and the suplex is just one of many.
Wrestling -- depending on the style -- *does* have some groundwork, but the reason people believe it doesn't is because Judo newaza and BJJ have shaped everyone's preconceived notions about what groundfighting is. The Olympic styles of wrestling (freestyle & Greco-Roman) place a slightly lesser emphasis on groundwork compared to American folkstyle. In the Olympic styles, after getting taken down an athlete often focuses on rolling to their belly and flattening himself out in order to avoid being rolled over and losing "exposure points" to the other wrestler. The other guy only has about ten seconds (IIRC) to expose them after which point both wrestlers are stood back up by the ref. Obviously this doesn't lead to many extended, technical exchanges on the mat, but it's certainly something and in fact some nations' freestyle wrestlers tend to be better in those positions than others. This is still more than what is contained in many folk wrestling styles throughout the world like Sumo, Senegalese wrestling, Glima, Mongolian wrestling, or Shuai Jiao where the match ends (or is paused) the moment one opponent touches the ground with anything other than the soles of their feet.
However, folkstyle wrestling here in the United States is a bit of an exception. It's the style of wrestling which is competed in at the middle school, high school, and university level -- in addition to various private clubs. I won't get into all of its nuances that differentiate it from the Olympic styles, but one of the big ones is that there *are* extended exchanges on the mats. Indeed, one of the focuses in collegiate wrestling is actually accruing "riding time" where one wrestler is in control of the other in a dominant position on the ground, yet isn't quite able to score the fall (i.e. pin). Furthermore, the ref is also far less keen to stand the two wrestlers up in folkstyle than in an Olympic match. This effectively means that they will often allow two athletes to go at it for an extended exchange of wrestling techniques. As such, this dynamic leads to a situation in which the "bottom wrestler", i.e. the one who is on the defensive *must* know how to "wrestle up" and launch offense/reversals from an inferior position or else risk losing the match on points.
Again, it's a very different style of "groundfighting" from what you'll see BJJ or Judo newaza... but it's there in its own way. Of course the the latter two tend to be far more refined and inclusive, notably because they teach athletes how to operate off one's back and actually include full-fledged submission knowledge*. But I just wanted to put it out there because wrestling is far more than high-amplitude takedowns and athleticism at the end of the day :D
FYI I'm a BJJ guy who loves Judo as an outsider looking in (never gotten the chance to train it unfortunately)... though I still kick myself for not joining the wrestling team back in school.
* Submissions are _technically_ illegal in amateur wrestling, but sometimes they happen anyway during a match (i.e. wrestlers getting choked unconscious while caught in a given hold around their neck/shoulders). Furthermore, since freestyle and folkstyle both have their roots in Catch Wrestling which was 100% an art with a whole system of various submissions much like BJJ and Judo, some of that institutional knowledge remains in their DNA. For instance, look up videos of the "hammerlock" in high school wrestling. When it became a non-submission art, the hammerlock transitioned to a pinning technique that you're only supposed to use for leverage and theoretically can't move your opponent's arm beyond 90 degrees. In a submission ruleset, nothing's stopping you from cranking that thing as you would a kimura or americana.
Likewise, the spladle/banana split can be used as a submission by yanking on a leg and pulling an opponent's groin muscles apart if they lack flexibility. Furthermore, Eddie Bravo's infamous Twister submission is actually derived from a pinning technique he learned in high school wrestling known as the "guillotine" (not to be confused with the front headlock choke). Look it up.
@@SaftonYT Thanks a lot for your comment, I'm learning a lot! Mad respect for you bjj guys! 💪Yeah, when I mean less technical is compared to our judo standards (a throw has some steps to it, unbalancing, technique and fall; also throws have been categorized and studied in depth); I agree that wrestling is way more physical, that's why I say less technical! Wrestling guys are strong as hell!
Sambo guy here Wrestling does have submissions just look at catch wrestling you have the arm bar Japanese arm bar straight arm bar hammerlock bar hammerlock wrist lock top wrist lock double wrist lock just to name a few and wrestling is very technical just try rolling with a high level wrestling its very hard clearly this judo guy is more skilled than the wrestler but that does not mean judo > wrestling it just means this guy more skilled that the other
I mean to be fair you did say you are biased as hell but even so there need to try and downplay wrestling we are all just grabbling at the end of day
@@dariodesansebastian That's fair. I think part of that is that Judo started as a formal, curriculum-based martial art in the Kodokan whereas wrestling always been a more of an... informal, for lack of a better term, combat sport. That being said, while a wrestling coach may not use the term kuzushi I suspect that if you went and attended a wrestling practice you would see him walking his students through the steps of a given takedown and showing them when and where the unbalancing happens. It might not come across as "academic" as BJJ and Judo and he wouldn't use the same phrase, but the same point would get across. It's probably fair to say that wrestling practitioners can get away with more than judoka simply due to the greater average level of athleticism of its worldwide talent pool. What I mean by this is that while many Olympic judoka are absolutely freak athletes much like their Olympic wrestling counterparts, there are a lot of Judo hobbyists... good luck finding "hobbyist wrestlers". By that same token, I think in some ways you might find some more similarities in how one of those "competitive Judo gyms" you mentioned run a practice as compared to a wrestling club versus how your own traditional academy runs a practice.
Just food for thought! Thank you again.
Judoka has good throws and he’s clearly worked on his boxing skills but he’s stuck in the tournament mentality, he needs to work on his Newaza.
@@jdacata5126 It's weird because American judoka are particularly good at newaza, as in nearly 50% of mat time is on the ground. So it's interesting seeing non-american judoka being subpar on the ground.
As a judoka who has won a judo open this guy has some beautiful throws
Congrats on winning, judo is no joke! Specially high level competition!
@@dariodesansebastian thanks 👍
What kind of open?
Greco-Roman wrestlers are great at above the waist throws.
I wish they would unban leg grabs from judo.
3:45 was the most incredible grappling I have ever seen. kicks his foot out and launches him
Agreed, that was a beautiful throw and he didn’t over rotate like most modern judoka
Idk, Id call it a draw. Wrestler never connected with any strikes and only really had that one moment of taking the back at the end of the round. Judo guy prevented several take down attempts by the wrestler. It was pretty even all told.
That Judo guy was dominating with takedowns though
@@JayV98 He did absolutely no damage on the ground, I would say after every fancy throw he would just shell up and wrestler would hammer him from strikes on the bottom. Not to mention, the wreslter actually worked to do damage when he was on top. Wrestler absolutely wins here under the unified rules.
@@mr.okanefan3218you know how significant is a take down ? There fighting on the grass if they were on concrete the wrestler would be dead he got ragdolled the whole fight and connected like 2 times
@@bbazino2385but it’s not concrete so it doesn’t matter….
@@bbazino2385 There are several videos of judokas throwing people on concrete and doing no damage whatsoever.
5:35 hard to catch here but the wrestler peeks through and arm drags which is how he takes the back. wrestlers are used to getting sprawled on and put in front cover. Elbow passes, arm drags, and hip heists are common ways to get past it, and since the judoka isn't used to a front cover position because of the lack of lower body takedowns, the wrestler got the advantage and took the back
I think we all get confused with the term "wrestler." Greco, Freestyle, and Folkstyle Wrestling are all substantially different - particularly when it comes to ground fighting. Everything you mentioned would be old-hat to an American Folkstyle/Collegiate Wrestler if it weren't for the fact that he was doing it all from Guard. I'd guess he learned his groundwork in BJJ/MMA classes...
His groundwork was actually fairly solid - but stylistically - nothing like that of what a Freestyle Wrestler (which is what his "base" is most likely) would have. Guard work, getting *two* deep boots in instead of one for a leg ride, and slipping under the arm to take the back from guard are BJJ habits - not Folk Wrestling - and certainly not Freestyle.
Freestyle Wrestlers might have phenomenal takedowns (not demonstrated in the fight however) - but their groundwork is usually limited to turn-overs, rolls, pins, chest-wraps, and gut wrenches / reverse lifts.
I think a lot of these Fight Breakdowns are misleading - these guys all cross train for sure.
@@lamesurfer1015 What are you talking about? That look away drag is drilled all the time to get out of front cover. It is one of the most common moves if you are in fromt cover. He 100percent learned that from wrestling. Not mma or smth else.
@@fingearsring9833 Did you read what I said about the difference between Free and Folk wrestling? Europeans don't practice American folk wrestling. They get some folk wrestling in MMA classes, if they are lucky to have a coach that knows that.
I have this theory of why grapplers tend to strike with each other, and why strikers tend to grapple each other. Since they both share a similar fighting style they might think it may take a long time to finish the fight, so they test to see if their opponent's weak point is weaker than theirs.
Edit: The 30 seconds on the ground is both a blessing and a curse for Judokas, the blessing is if you get good in Newaza you become really fast on the ground, and really good in the transition between throw and ground fighting. The curse is there are some Judokas who just prefer to turtle instead of engaging in ground fighting, and therefore they don't use the opportunity to get better on the ground, so even if they are brown belt or so, their Newaza sucks. This is also bad for the people who do want to get better at ground fighting because it gets harder to get better at Newaza if the level of opponents aren't up to par.
You dont get punished for turtling and stalling?
@@FightCommentary no, they just stand you up after a few seconds
My theory has always been that it's also an unconscious way of them sorta protecting(?) their pride in either grappling or striking. As in, if you guys are both grapplers and you engage as a grappler but lose to your opponent's grappling, that's demoralizing on another level. But if you engage in striking and lose to your opponent's striking, you still have that little bit of an exit strategy cos you can say, "well, if I grappled, I would've won bc my grappling is superior to my opponent's grappling" lol. It's like, people don't actually want to confront the upper limit of their best art and be bested at it. Iono if that makes sense haha
@@FightCommentary It's weird - but it's also a country thing. The US, Brazil, and Japan are really well known for their Newaza, for example. They rarely skip an opportunity to go for a pin, turnover, choke, or joint lock. Countries like Mongolia, France, and South Korea are prone to skipping out Newaza all together and focus on standing technique.
Its also a gender thing too. Female competitors typically have more newaza wins.
In all, almost 50% of the wins in Judo are newaza - but a vast amount of them come from transitioning into a pin from a throw and then retaining that pin for 10 to 20 seconds - which is a lot harder and more important than people give it credit for...
I can't say this enough: *people, even Judoka, really sleep on transition and pin retention.* Imagine being able to slam the other guy and landing yourself in a dominant position (past their guard)! To me, It's like sleeping on cutting angles in boxing...
That has been my experience.
Judoka pulled off a couple of good throws, but clammed up and went completely inactive once he got to ground. zero attempts made to pass guard, no offense from the guard - in every case he simply clamshelled and buried his forehead in the wrestler's chest and took small shots to the side of the head (and a couple good elbows on the top of the head) before simply disengaging and standing up. He looked confident with the throws, but had no idea how to finish or what to do once he was on the ground. Not even enough instinct there to posture up and throw some punches from the top position, never mind pass guard and get into side control. Wrestler on the other hand was a bit stiff, tried to throw some decent strikes but was just a bit slow, HOWEVER - he looked very comfortable off his back (uncommon for wrestlers) - specifically, every time he ended up getting thrown he moved immediately to shift his hips and successfully recover guard, and then planted his feet on the judoka's hips to control him, keep him back and low on his chest, and continually harassed the judoka with small punches and elbow to the head. The backtake was VERY smooth and the judoka made no attempt to turn and face his opponent or even fight to get an underhook and stop the backtake - in fact he just turtled and covered up, expecting to take punches, which he then obviously did, since he did nothing to stop it! Then the wrestler makes a decent attempt at an RNC, so big points there. Round three was much of the same, except now judoka is hesitant and fails to win the clinch, eating a knee in the process. The wrestler keeps trying to land that wheel kick but he's just not comfortable with the range of it, so he keeps missing the whole time. Regardless, the wrestler landed way more strikes, tons of good solid leg kicks, and ever when he got thrown and ended up on the bottom, he still got the better of the exchange, landing more strikes and dominating from the bottom such that the judoka failed to even attempt any offense and instead just stood back up. This one goes to the wrestler, however, he was gassing hard at the end of the fight and needs to get his cardio on point - nothing that happened over the course of those three rounds should have been enough to tire out a young fit wrestler like that.
Judo throws are sick
Imo judoka should hone their throws, get some ground game going, but they should master striking from the clinch and ground and pound. Those throws will make so much more of an impact after serious blows were dealt. Judoka need to train their atemi-waza or else their throws will suffer in effectiveness
True! Just like with Aikido, the old Judo masters did mention that you should know you Atemi Waza (striking techniques) if you wan't to be a real Judoka.
I was thinking that too: "if he only knew a little Aikido or AikiJuJutsu." Or a bent arm bar (Not sure the Waza name. I think it's from BJJ, but probably first was in Japan".
Just crosstrain in Muay Thai or something, your elbows will be lethal. Even clinchwork will be an opening to throws
It's not just the short time you get on the mat that's working against judo, it's all sorts of things. The fact that you can score via pins, for instance, incentivizes playing it safe on the ground in a way you can't afford to in MMA or jiujitsu. A ton of submissions are just off limits in judo as well, so your game is heavily restricted to chokes, armbars, and shoulder locks (which are technically illegal, but some shoulder locks are considered arm locks for reasons that have never been made clear to me). Then there's the gi element, which can pretty dramatically change your ground game because certain grips are out and you obviously can't get gi chokes, a huge part of judo's arsenal. And, of course, the most obvious, that most judo matches end when the opponent hits the mat to begin with, so no ground game is even required.
That said, judo's submission game is sufficient for most people, it's just not going to cut it (not on its own, anyway) for MMA. When you're up against someone who isn't trained on the ground, you can usually tap them with ease with judo alone.
I bet you eventually the Olympic judo will take out pins too because its similar to wrestling styles 😇😇
I think certain MMA promotions, especially the UFC have been trying to stack the rules and incentives away from submissions. The long grind on the ground isn't very crowd-friendly. In the early days submission artists reigned supreme. But nowadays, particularly with the rules being the way they are, "wrestle boxers" are king.
That said, the key skill that a "wrestle boxer" has in his/her arsenal isn't submission, but the ability to pin and then strike (GnP). The pin part of that is particularly important - and that's one thing Judo doesn't sleep on. Even the most lazy-on-the-ground Judoka should know their way around pins (unless their school sucked).
That said, I don't think that Judo's incentive to capitalize on the pin is the liability in MMA - I think its Judo's incentive to turtle / guard and stall. This is where American Folkstyle Wrestling, particularly with its bottom wrestling is simply unmatched - even by BJJ. No other grappling art teaches you to how stand up when someone is trying to hold you down. Just this part alone is easily 25% of your average Folk Wrestler's training time.
You make some valid points but I think some invalid as well.
The emphasis in Judo competition is Tachi waza (stand up) but certain athletes and countries style gravitate to Newaza (ground work ) and it’s very high level but the implementation is different then BJJ, it’s really only the modern day no gi competitions we are seeing a huge shift in BJJ, where throwing techniques and takedowns have become necessary because new rules won’t allow guard pulling etc.
Judo athletes have prioritized training around the rules within international competition and this makes sense as a professional athlete within the confines of Judo but if you are a Judoka going into other competitions (which isn’t that common) then you have to familiarize yourself with rule sets and modifications.
When you say Judo itself won’t cut it in mma that is just silliness like I said you have to modify it obviously without the jacket which jiujitsu and sambo did as well, but you also have to keep in mind there is only a handful of elite judoka who have transitioned into mma and many times the number of high level BJJ practitioners and high level wrestlers that made the switch into mma. Judo is an isolationist sport you can’t compete in other organizations or combat sports and be ranked within the organization so the incentive to go into mma and risk your entire profession athlete career that you have probably been doing since you were a kid is just not worth it much of the time.
Also to the point Judo doesn’t cut it in mma I must contest this with the athletes:
Rhonda rousey she used Judo to great effect, what did her in was her inflated striking skills and horrible coach.
Hirata itsuki
Ayaka Miura
Shinya aoki
Karo parisyan (no gi no problem)
Fedor emelianenko
Hidehiko yoshida (early mma with Royce gracie)
The other thing I want to address is if BJJ is the best for MMA why is it wrestlers and sambo guys who are dominating?
My theory is Jiujitsu also has its flaws in competition the grappling becomes much different when you add strikes in a lot of the way you pull guard or certain stalling positions are not advantageous with a high pressure pass system like wrestling, Judo or sambo.
I also would like to say you are better off with a handful of techniques that you have refined and polished to a high degree then to have a bunch of techniques that you are ok at
Also the criticism of pinning techniques makes sense only in a grappling only rule set as soon as you add strikes pins are amazing, you can safely punch someone and not worry about any retaliation.
I think the best way to get used to adding a kick is to drill always adding a kick at the end of any combo. It doesn't cover the whole thing but does get you used to having it in there.
As the great John Danaher said, the sport of Judo judges you based on the throw. Wrestling and BJJ judge you based on the RESULT of the throw. I did wrestling and BJJ for a few years and outgrappled judokas who've been doing it for over a decade, which is sad to me because judo was king until the olympics watered down
Right... Cool story bro.
@@oddmanout7755 Clueless
@@coolunusualand believing in unproven testimony is not clueless. Gotcha.
@@911Salvage "Unproven" you know what's proven? Wrestling and BJJ, very successful in MMA which is the closest to real combat with effective moves. You have Ronda Rousey, that's about it and even that was in the 90s era for women's MMA. Judo ends at the landing, the other two are about finishing from that or at least being in good position. Do the math
@@911Salvagelol i also prove it with video i grappled judokas all the time going to asia and still in the states
5:34 sucker drag, the judoka basically gave it for free. but amazing judo skills
Love this guys commentary, agree with the Judo doing more Newaza but at the end of the day if it’s a competition sport/gym they’re going to train competition specific
6:43 that throw was an Ura Nage variation. A nogi Uchi Mata is done with an over hook as the main grip. Also the wrestler was able to hit a duck under after getting sprawled on which is how he was able to take the back from turtle. Great grappling
This is yagura nage
Yagura nage, front uchi Mata. If you look at it and break it down, it's an inner thigh reap that throws, it's just done face to face, father than by turning the back
Guys could go back and forth on this all day. We have a second dan Judoka where I train who absolutely destroyed a collegiate wrestler. But he also threw the wrestler on a tile floor and proceeded to get top control while the guy was still trying to get his breath back. Additionally, we train self-defense Judo, which seems to have a lot more newaza than sport judo.
2:30 He has him in guard with one butterfly hook in. It is a much safer position than the actual 3/4 guard for the bottom guy.
When the Judoka has strong tachi waza but weak newaza.
judo guy really needs to upgrade his ne waza,
they were equaly good at ground but standing grappling judoka was better
thats the problem with judo schools / clubs these days is that they don't focus on ne waza or they ignore it
I agree with the description here. The throws were great, and the Judoka gave himself plenty of opportunity to do something on the ground that he just never did anything with.
If your gameplan is surrounding around taking your opponent down, then you *must* have something to do when you inevitably go to the ground. Letting them stand up is another opportunity for them to hurt you.
Judoka's biggest mistake is just that: No ground grappling = no path to victory vs. a remotely competent grappler.
Side note: A couple of things.
First, your question about "Ne-waza"
To my understanding, "Waza" means skill or practice.
Occasionally the sensei's will call out "Tachi-waza" and that means sparring but only standup.
The same for "ne-waza" and to my research "Ne" means ground in this context.
Second, your assessment on the throw at 6:38
It looks more like Hani-Goshi than Uchi-Mata.
Mostly because there isn't a reap of the inner thigh.
Judoka uses his leg like a shelf as he springs Uke up.
And for the record on Hani-Goshi: Hani-Goshi is a tough throw to get in Randori even in the gi. If you look at the stats in competition as to how many times Hani-Goshi is attempted/successful, it's usually close to 0.
So to see a Hani-goshi in MMA without a Gi for control really tells me the skill level of the Judoka.
Its actually much easier to hit judo throws in spaces where judo is NOT the primary practice do to the kuzushi principle. Its easier to of balance someone when they are throwing kicks, punches, etc. Especially when that principle isn't explained to them. So for the case of hani goshi, you will see much simpler waza (techniques) bring complete in high level judo because it's the simplicity that really works.
It's a front uchi mata or Yagura nage. ua-cam.com/video/cf4aiBcvX0M/v-deo.html&ab_channel=ShintaroHigashi
In hane goshi uke's balance is on the other foot. I thought it was a harai goshi from that angle, but in the hightlights I saw I was wrong!
Yagura nage is way more difficult than hane goshi, so I definitely agree! This guy's level is around second degree black belt (13 to 15 years of judo)
@@danqfrank44 100% agree. Even mildly competent judoka learn to guard their posture and balance in randori and shiai to the point that you have to get them moving quite substantially to throw them (opening you up for counters in the meantime). They also get very good at grip fighting, which negates any attempt to throw.
In another context, like MMA for example, the attention is taken away from the grip fighting / balance retention. It's allowed me to pull off throws (particularly Harai Goshis) that I would never have dreamed of doing in Randori. Same in No-Gi BJJ or Wrestling - where people are pre-occupied with guarding their legs.
In fact, I think I've hit Ippon Seoi Nage and Harai Goshi more in No-Gi situations in the last 2 years than I've ever hit in the 14 years I've done Judo.
It's called Yagura Nage or front uchimata
There's no time limit for ne waza in judo so long as the fight is progressing but the ref will stop the fight after approximately 6 seconds if no progress is being made but if you look at some of the best ne waza judokas they can spend minutes on the ground at a time as they transition from one technique to another but they have to work really fast BJJ is more passive in this regard and often they can wait for their opponent to slip up before capitalising on the mistake. In Judo on the ground you have to make things happen fast or you get stood back up.
this left me with a doubt... considering these 3 points for self-defense
1- defend takedowns
2- knowing how to fall without getting hurt if caught
3- when you are underneath the aggressor defend yourself and get up quickly
which art would look best for these 3 points if you had to choose just one? Judo, BJJ, Folkstyle wrestling, Greco-Roman wrestling, Freestyle wrestling, etc...
Sambo.
Bjj is great but not many bjj purists have good takedowns compared to the other grappling arts.
@@Todo_fighting Yes, sambo, kudo, or just "MMA" would be the best because they cover all possibilities and encompass striking, standup grappling, and ground fighting. Out of the pure grappling arts I think catch wrestling would be best since it includes standup as well as ground fighting and submissions, all without gi. Individual BJJ and Judo gyms could be up there as well if the the BJJ gym practices standup and the Judo dojo practices ne waza.
Go for wrasslin, most bang for the buck. Because it focuses on control. IF you had to choose. BJJ does have some smooth reversals when you do fall down.. and chokes are great on drunk idiots if you need to shut someone down.
5:33 great chain wrestling. This is why you train techniques like the peek-out or in this case, the sucker drag. Judoka may have sprawled but one of the first things you learn in wrestling is to keep moving and chain attacks.
In the 2nd period, wrestler was able to control the elbow to a ‘Sucker Drag’ to get back control. So the move is called a Sucker Drag. That’s one of the first moves you learn in youth wrestling when someone has you in the front headlock position. Hope that helps!
Very interesting! I’ll have to take a look at that!
Dude didnt shoot at all! Only threw the worst telegraphed strikes ever!
having a flow and using momentum is the best way to make combos in my opinion. that's why foot work is important.
I would have liked to see the judoka go to a full closed guard with a clinch before going for his submission attempts. An overhook clinch or a shoulder pinch clinch would have gotten him that armbar or triangle
commentator is actually clueless its very surprising to me that you do fight breakdowns. while half of it goes over your head
Hey bro, do you think we will see some sparring you did? maybe you using youre capoeira?
In Judo it is important to train transitioning from a throw into a submission, something that BJJ kind of fails at. Judo throws will often give you a arm bar.
Thank you!
That back mount he had in the second round is called leg riding in wrestling.
Beautiful throws!... But yeah, he didn't practice enough ne-waza to compete with a wrestler, which is a shame, but I blame it on the IJF.
5:37 wrestler hit short arm drag
There’s not a throw he did that you don’t see in wrestling, too. I mean, really, Greco/freestyle throws and body locks would look almost the same,
Man people get way, way too hung up on distinction. The dirty secret is that at some level of skill and experience, Judo and Wrestling (Free and Greco) all start to blend together.
Man just stop just stop plz
@@dhimankalita1690stop what? His commentary is fun, but would be a lot better with some wrestling knowledge.
5:31 come onnnnnn you dont say something then suddenly stopped now you got me interested about that neck exercise and decompress stuff. can you talk about that next video or something im so curious now.
if you bite someone thats heart😂
Judo + Jiu-Jitsu is the low-key best arsenal.
The reason the judoka flattened out when the wrestler gif the hooks in is because the wrestler was using the hooks to flatten him out it’s called a leg ride in wrestling and if you’ve ever been leg ridden you know it works
The throw at 5:09 is yagura nage
6:40 is called a FRONT Uchi Mata 👍
If you're a judoka you should work hard on your ground game as well. Ground work is underrated because everyone wants to win with a big throw but if you can get above your competition on the ground (which is not that hard nowadays) you can win much more.
Punch kick combos like: jab, cross, hook, leg kick
Or
Kick punch combos like: leg kick, hook, cross, hook
Fellow Judoka, please stop with the superiority complex with BJJ. BJJ would destroy most of us in a sport setting. The earlier you acknowledge that, the better the Judo community would be. It’s not a good look for us. Be humble, respectful, and show the world Judo isn’t about drama but the betterment of the community.
Thanks brother, seeing real humility in this comments warms my heart
I remember during a wrestling match a guy was in position for a double leg take down before the match started once the ref said go he instantly launched to them and took him down
Newaza (寝技) stands for “pinning technique”. If read literally. 寝 = sleep/lie down 技 = technique
I think i see how the wrestler got the judokas back. It looks like he slipped during the sprawl and flatted out. At the point the wrestler took advantage
The only way Judo wins is if he knows the old style judo that has the wrestling in it also
Or if the wrestler is not a good combat wrestler
In regards to getting good at punching and kicking and takedowns
You need to do them all together without sparring and hurting yourself, which is a creative endeavor
You can start by bringing your knees up and your arms up like you’re blocking someone that’s coming at you with arms and legs block with your legs and your arms and then start punching and kicking back
This is really a basic comment, but there you go
I disagree with the sentiment that wrestlers are stiff at 3:25, as someone who does both wrestling and judo, you cannot obtain high or even moderate level skill in either not being fluid.
also at 4:10 another untrue statement. judo vs folkstyle, yes judo wins the throw competition. judo vs greco-roman or any well rounded wrestler who trains upper body takedowns too? I would not be so sure.
judo + karate (because karate and judo blends together very well) is 💀 karate for stand up and ground and pound, and judo for throws
2:04 full contact point fighting makes you pretty good at that, or American style kickboxing (the ruleset for competition is straight up just awful but for practicing combos is great)
also, ne waza (寝技) literally just means lay down technique, or floor technique.
When you know the other guy can grapple you might not want to just rush in and grab any random thing. You want to set it up or at least wait for a good grip or shot opportunity so you dont waste time and energy or even jump at something half-assed and get reversed.
Judo has everything Wrestling has. IJF and Olympic Judo bans it. But traditional or Kodokan Judo doesn’t. Cuz they are core essential.
You seem very unknowledgeable of wrestling. Wrestlers arent generally stiff they have people attacking their legs the whole time and they have a much more versatile in standup with picks and HC
Judoka didn't know how to capitalize on the ground positions.
The judoka is pretty good. Many judo players have difficulty with no gi (shirtless) since 9/10 dojos don’t train anything. But Olympic rules
Do it again but on concrete.
It's sad what happened to Judo in the Olympics. Should have never been watered down.
Around 6:50 yeah I would call that a Uchi mata. Not exactly text book but it looks over the hip, leg extending to secure the throw. Close enough, and dude what a great example of why throws are useful
Hane-goshi I believe
It looks like front uchi mata
These guys are pretty good but the best fighters are those who have more than just good striking and grappling skills. The thing that sets them apart is the ability to transition seamlessly from one technique to another. For example, if you throw someone onto the ground, you have to think ahead and know what position they will end up in so you can immediately move into the next technique without first having to look for an opening. That opening will already be here in your mind's eye. Striking combinations or striking and grappling combinations need to flow from one to the other. Do not just strike without first thinking a couple of steps ahead. You have to be prepared if the technique does not work, say if the strike does not land or the throw countered. Do not just bounce around the ring and firing off the first technique that comes into your head, especially if you do not have anything to follow it up with such as a reposte when they counter. This wastes energy and leaves you open to counter attack. You must have a game plan to succeed.
Judo has about 7 "forbidden" throws in all competitive sports. If this was a different situation a broken femur, ribcage or neck won't matter to you, as what style was used
forbidden throws like kani basami for example
This dude saying judo guys should work on newaza but does he knows about the gracie x kimura fight?
Throughout Judo competitions I only see those who skip on ne-waza opporotunities and those who force the same techniques in ne-waza each time they get on the ground
Longer newaza in judo? So basically Kosen Judo? :P
Finally - some dudes fighting it out on grass! Safety first. I just can't watch all these idiots fighting on concrete. Like they have a death wish or something.
if nothing else, I will say your ability to talk about something which you clearly have no clue about, while being completely wrong over and over again is honestly impressive. I love your confidence 😂.
red didn't "give up his back" @5:36, blue used a common front head lock counter called the sucker drag. to answer your question @6:45, that was a variation of the uchi mata using an underhook/bodylock. it's a variation, but different enough to warrant it's own name. where I train we call it a front uchi. I don't know the Japanese terminology, sorry.
you know what's even more cringe than jiu jitsu? (which is not an easy thing, so congrats). being completely obsessed with it to the point that you go out of your way to voice-over/commentate fights while making it completely obvious you've never trained anything in your life, AND THEN calling the thing you're obviously obsessed with cringe 😂. also, I don't make youtube videos so I'm no expert, but maybe don't give advice about things you've never done before? that's wild 🤣
Wie definiert du ein wenig
Grob geschätzt
Hey now, easy on the jiujitsu jokes. Lol. Any way another great video.
People sleep on how good judo players are at wrestling
They limited newaza, because it looked boring to the spectators
But Khabibs father said Judo is better lol go watch the hilarious vid of his saying that in a room full of wrestlers
@@slithxrx4489 iam coming here after watching it 😁😁
😅
I just watched it before coming here
Amazing
The ‘ne’ in newaza is the Japanese word for sleeping. As you sleep on the ground on futons in Japan, this makes sense.
Ne = "ground"
Waza = "Technique"
According to my wife, who is from Kobe, that is wrong. The character 'ne' in 'newaza' is 寝, which is the character for sleep.@@Oinkiepiggy
@@Oinkiepiggy nope. Newaza is 寝技, 寝 means sleep and 技 means technique
Someone needed to tell the Judoka there was no Ippon. This was an insult to newaza 😂
If it's soft ground, like grass that they fight on. Wrestlers will almost always win. If it's hard ground, like concrete, Judo will almost always win.
I don't know much about judo and wrestling. In my high school days I was into Kung Fu and Tae Kwon Do. But now I'm more into boxing and kickboxing. That's all I can find to spar with in these days lol. But l found this match okay. Not bad at all.👍
Clearly both have weakness but seemed like you only highlight the Judoka. It shows your bias.
the judoka was good, but he lost this fight, he was completely helpless on the ground and this vaunted judo? Then everything is sad
there were no serious throws, but he was actually destroyed in the stalls and only the time of the end of the second round saved him.
I don't think wrestlers are known for getting tired tho
At my club we fight on the ground alot just in comps is a time limit I just feel this judoka not confident on the ground.
As a lifelong Judo practitioner (22 years) , modern Judo is cringe, they have put so many restrictions on it it became more of a dance than full contact sport.
Yep
This the guy who used to do the Asian dating show reviews?
The video is sped up.
Judo is the new black in MMA
If that was pavement the wrestler would have been in trouble
the judoka was good, but he lost this fight, he was completely helpless on the ground and this vaunted judo? Then everything is sad
😂 How funny. On the grass. Would be interesting on the concrete to land.
Judo one of the best combat sport.
casual commentary
Judoka shouldnt follow-through when he throws if he wants to do the maximum dmg.
Just my opinion, i think the best combination i could think of is:
Jiujitsu for ground work
Mix of muay thai and savate for kicks
Boxing and kenpo or pancrase for hands
I also think any actual fighters need to have a minimum of jiujitsu and muay thai.
I just love watching how different fighters mix styles and make them work.
I really enjoy watching old bas rutten, buakaw, and saenchai fight footage.
What do you train
Too many styles. Just pick 1-2 and add whatever is missing later. No need for both Muay Thai and Savate and boxing and kempo etc. Jiujitsu is obviously an excellent form of grappling and there are others as well. Find what works for you brother
Respectfully there was very little grappling knowledge in this commentary
Is this an actual fight or just sparring?
An MMA match.
real fight, but amateur level
It wasn’t a great sprawl. It was a typical wrestling headlock escape. Like your videos, you need wrestling background help.
Man... you don't seem to know a lot of grappling or judo terms.
Good
I did't see wrestler. Even blue don't look like wrestler, even position not same as wrestler stays. I have KMS (candidat of master of sport) by Judo and I know how wrestler look like and how wrestler fights. What I have seen here that to far to be a wrestler.
As judo white belt (feel the level) i feel completley embarrassed of Selim's ground work. In our Dojo we do 4 minutes x 4 rounds of ground with focus on the technic (so basically around half of all Randori are groundwork) but this guy...
Have to admit he's got some good throws tho