Starship Lore : Defiant Class - Starfleet's Pimphand
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- Опубліковано 21 січ 2018
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The Defiant-class starship, officially an escort vessel, began development around 2366 as a small, highly-powered, heavily-armed warship intended to defend the United Federation of Planets against the Borg. The USS Defiant (NX-74205) was the prototype of what was to be a new Federation battle fleet. However, the ship had numerous design problems that were made apparent during its shakedown cruise. These flaws, combined with the decreased urgency of the Borg threat, caused Starfleet to table its plans for a battle fleet and put the Defiant in storage.
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If you noticed the time.. yea, this was supposed to go live at 3.. I didn't have to redo it several times.. Not frustrated at all.. do hope you enjoy..
He was a partial inspiration for the entire Channel
something i didn't get about the starfleet ships other then the prometheus is why they didn't have dual warp cores for both going max speed & max power without sacrificing power for other systems??
Lore Reloaded It got demonitized over the pimphand joke didn’t it?
Knowing the Federation’s penchant for “action features” on their ships, maybe there is a way to easily expend the shuttle bay, say by ejecting another “less necessary” thing.
Also, the Defiant’s nose is supposed to be ejectable as a sort of large missle.
I think LR mentioned in a previous video that Voyager was designed to have 2 warp cores, and would have had 2 if it didn't end up in the DQ.
“Mr. Worf, prepare a high yield quantum torpedo and write on it ‘Don’t f*** with the Sisko’ “
Your joke now seems to be something that would make it into the script in modern Trek.
@@banditoheat ah dude...please!!
Don't remind me...
@@banditoheat Why not? The air force does stuff like that in reality
@@LanMandragon1720 I mean a B-17 crew once dropped a ceramic throne on Berlin as a joke.
I love that meme and use it a lot
Lots of people think O'Brian is a glorified transporter room operator... yet he fixed a ship that star fleet engineering corps thought beyond hope...
The problem with the O'Brien character was that he was just meant to be an extra in TNG, rather than a meaningful regular character in TNG let alone DS9.
We know he was a soldier in the Federation Cardassian War, but ended up being an expert in transporter technology by TNG time (DS9 mentions O'Brien as an expert with transporters, and you don't get to be transporter chief of the Big E for no reason).
First I don't think I would call O'Brien a 'soldier' or should I say not an infantry type guy... he was a POG who found himself in combat because Star Fleet is stupid and does not have proper ground forces.
the moving around in jobs is not without precedent Geordi went from the helmsman to chief engineer for no reason. And Worf went from random guy on the bridge doing random things to security chief and then chief tactical officer.
at least O'Brien stayed an engineering guy... except that time he worked the helm.
but really what we saw with O'Brien is natural carrier progression years working his way up. Geordi went from helm to chief Engineer over night. Even Picard was once a green ensign who would have been an 'extra' if a show was made about that ship.
o'brain as a character didn't make any sense, he has the rank of chief. Chief is not an officer rank, technically an ensign outranks him, and yet he gives orders to lieutenants.
+TentaclePentacle. he held the billet of operations Chief which is why he was able to give them orders.
He reminds me. A lot of tos scotty
Movie First Contact
Riker to Warf: Tough little ship.
Warf: Little?
Gets me every time.
Lt Cmdr W-O-R-F , son of Morgh of the House of Martog . Yeah , that scene gets me every time too . (5 May 2018 0702 hours)
House of M-A-R-T-O-K.
It reminded him of something Troy let slip by accident.
DS9 Episode "Defiant"
T Riker: "Tough little ship."
(Written 1 year before First Contact IIRC)
correction. its Commander Woof.
How to be unstoppable
Step 1: make 1 million defiant class ships
Step 2: send them out in swarm's of 20-30
Step 3: profit!
Star Fleets Bird of Prey basically send I'm out in wolf pack's
That was basically my plan when playing Birth of the Federation
They were made for wolfpack tactics after all, just send them with one Galaxy or Intrepid class as a command ship.
THERE! ARE! FOUR! DECKS!
FIVE
LOL! I got the reference.. ;)
Keep on torturing Picard
Well played!
I was drinking soda when i read that, now i'm a mess
Defiant-class: Starfleet's wig-splitter
Prometheus-class: Starfleet's cheek-buster.
Sovereign-class:Starfleet's Shot Caller
Galaxy, Nebula, Constellation, Miranda and Excelsior-classes: Starfleet's OGs
Benjamin "Big Herc" Cisco in his new UA-cam series, "Freshout of Starfleet"
@@gweiloxiu9862 looooool!
Lol....
To boldly clap them cheeks.
@@benjaminbierley2074 Kirk, Spock and Picard:
Space....the Final Frontier.
These are the voyages of the starship: Enterprise.
It's ongoing mission: To turn out young new fish.
To seek out new members and more commissary
To boldly clap them cheeks, where no one has clapped before
Ok stopping here. “Ben Sisko’s Mother 🤬 pimphand” that’s hilarious
ua-cam.com/video/qChmTbcaU44/v-deo.html
skip to 0:44 perfect example
0:40 Absolutely lost my shit!!
I almost died laughing at that.
Sfdebris gets everywhere!
his Pimp game is strong
Wow, you just made my day!
The Defiant is a wolf, and a wolf hunts in packs.
But is still formidable solo. Good analogy.
lone wolf
So true gentleman
"Because Ben Sisko's Motherfukin' Pimp Hand wouldn't fit on the hull."
#sfdebrisfolife
Yesssssss!!!!!!
Could have just had a graphic of a big black hand smacking a borg upside the face. That would have got the message across :D
Red Nine It would. But regulations would not allow you to put it on the hull.
Sisko's Righteous Beachslap ! :D
There was a line at the end of the episode 'Q Who' when Picard said
'Perhaps we needed a good kick in our complacency to get us ready for
what's ahead'.
This was very true of Starfleet at this time, the bulk of the fleet was Excelsior class, a design over 80 years old. And the Miranda class, a design a century old!
If Q hadn't introduced Starfleet to the Borg, they would probably have never even got started on any of the combat vessels they have now like the Defiant and Akira. And the Dominion would have had a fairly easy time steamrolling over the complacent and very out of date Starfleet.
Maybe eventually the Fed'/SF would've bumped into the Dominion, but that all depends on how much of a change there is from "Borg Contact Timeline" to "Non-Borg Contact"; would the Cardassians have left Terok Nor? Would the Bajorans have reached out to the Fed/SF for help after the Cardassians left? Would they have found the Celestial Temple? Etc, etc.
*
"Borg Contact via Q Timeline" or "Non-B.C.V.Q Timeline"
Paul McCloud very well said. Starfleet had a century of being nice and friendly and they got lazy. in kirks time they were a military as much as anything and fought back the klingons for most of the 23rd century, the constellation class ships were made to be warships as well as exploration. the 24th cen made them complacent and lacking in ship design. if not for the borg they would have gotten killed by the dominion, but the borg got them off their ass and taking being a military serious again and building real combat ships and a real fighting mentality just in time for the dominion war. it was a costly lesson but a necessary one. a lesson that starfleet cant forget. also the reason i like sisko better than picard, sisko was an officer for that time and the future of starfleet, picard was mostly from the diplomatic past even though he could fight, its the direction they needed to go back in.
Akira first, then Defiant
Makes you think that Q did it on purpose. To get us ready for the Borg threat
"Still in use in the 31st century" That wouldn't surprise me, they probably still use Oberth class ships in the 31st century...
What would it be at that point.. in ST3 it was a wet paper towel, in TNG-DS9 it was dry or wet tissue paper, then after hundreds of years it would be...hmm.. Used wet toilet paper?.. Snot covered tissue paper?
R Dragonheart oberths are exploding decoy targets filled with the most annoying versions of the mk1 emh holograms that soak up phaser fire fleet actions. I think starfleet bought 15,000 on the cheap and are still trying to get rid of them in the future!
I think the base design could still be in use. I doubt it would look the same, but looking at some ships, you can see the evolution of certain ship-classes that were probably meant to succeed another. The Nebula-Class for example is pretty much a TNG-version of the Miranda, except that the old Mirandas are still in use.
You do see a Prometheus and Defiant class fighting at Procyon V in the 29th century. I'm sure there is a bullseye class... Err Oberth class there
Maybe they even still use Miranda and Excelsior in the 29th :D
But seriously, those ships are designed to last, with some upgrades during the lifetime. It's similar to modern military ships, aircraft and even guns. They are often designed to be in service for 40 or more years.
The Defiant class was the Federation version of the Klingon Bird of Prey. They took all they liked from the Bird of Prey and added to it.
It is made very similar, especially with the defiant having a cloaking device.
Agreed. I see both ships in an attack sub sort of roll. Ether for raiding soft targets behind enemy lines or striking in a packs.
Oops I started my comment/essay/diatribe the same way. In my defense you can guess by the length that I hadn't seen yours when I started it. I saw the video 35 minutes after it was posted, then went into a nerd fugue state for a couple of hours composing and researching my comment and proofreading it. Oh and experiencing some life in-between.
I've had these idea's rattling around while insomniacing, but I may have gone overboard in putting them down.
Anyway congratulations on being short and succinct while stating pretty much the same thing.
landfair123
"Your distinctiveness will be added to our own."
Including the torpedo launcher and its placement.
Defiant and Pimphand in the title = thumbs up
+Gups As right it should!
My Man!
I was on the line at work when I heard "Ben Sisko's muther-f
Chase I was also at work. Died laughing.
Chase He stole it from Science Fiction Debris. Cheers.
Sisko’s Pimp Hand line led me to pausing the video hitting like and commenting, now back to show
Michael Sue Too bad he stole it from SFDebris.
pcosta816
Such an awesome line cannot be stolen,it is gifted upon a larger group of people
That would be Sisko's Mike-Foxtrot Pimp Hand (5 May 2018 0646 hours)
The Defiant class is a game changer for a post Dominion Starfleet. It terms of size and function it is effectively a Federation Bird of Prey. But it eats Klingon Bird's of Prey for breakfast, hell as a snack. Having such a powerful SMALL ship that can be mass produced means that they can have a lot of them to cover various sectors. They could be used as the local patrol ships thereby making each Federation world a tough nut to crack instead of having to rely on a visiting fleet for defense and security.
The numbers advantage cannot be overstated, with fleetyards no longer under attack and dedicated to repairing battle damage on larger ships, production can be ramped up to replace current fleet ships and then some, (maybe even retiring older models from frontline and secondary duty [Miranda, maybe Excelsior] using them just for supply runs/low intensity missions modified to run with skeleton crews, freeing up a lot of personnel). Also the small size means smaller shipyards can build it, greatly magnifying the number of manufacturing sites, (The mirror universe Deep Space Nine station built one with plans stolen by the alternate Miles O'Brien) this leaves the larger shipdocks free if necessary.
Another big advantage (huge actually) is the small crew size, approximately 40 crew. Most Starfleet vessels have crew compliments ten times that amount, give or take a factor of 2 (200 - 800), this means many more ships can be crewed for the same number of personnel, a important factor with the manpower (humanoidpower?) shortage in the post war years.
To give you an idea, here's a little mental exercise, A Sovereign class has 855 crew and is 3.2 million tons, a Defiant class has 40 crew and is 0.35 million tons. So you could get 9 times as many ships for the given mass. Not an accurate equivalent because of the manufacturing detail required, although you can use smaller shipyards without tying up the largest one. But you can have 21 times as many ships with the same amount of personal, but not all of them are combat crew. So let's split the difference, 15 Defiants per Sovereign.
Now put 15 Defiants up against the Scimitar and watch what happens. They would swarm and the Scimitar would never be able to focus on one long enough to finish it off (as soon as substantially hit it would pull back while it's shield regenerated, and even a seriously lucky hit wouldn't matter, except to the crew involved, and they have a good chance of abandoning ship anyway) and as soon as the Scimitar fired 30 or so secondary phasers (and maybe a primary if it's lucky enough to be aiming the right way) and torpedoes from all the Defiants would target where the shot came from and at least one or two would score a hit. Then using that all the ships would aim their secondaries to keep it 'illuminated' and then bring main guns to bear.
And while a much busier special effects sequence, it would also be much shorter [oops, 4th wall]. The rest of the Romulans arrive to find the Defiants finishing minor repairs.
One of the differences of the Defiant design is that the bridge is buried in the middle of the hull and completely protected. And I've read somewhere that it was supposed to set a trend for future designs, with internally positioned bridges and the nacelles blended into the hull - like the Steamrunner class's nacelles. With the success of the Defiant it may set a new paradigm for Starfleet design as well with single hulled ships with nacelles built in and a hidden bridge, making future ships much more robust.
The landing gear actually serves a strategic purpose as well. Small colony worlds just starting or outpost can have one or two sitting on a launch pad, important if they are near a border or far from other support, and they can be kept in bunkers on larger worlds ready for deployment at a moment's notice, effectively as very, very large fighter/bombers. And it allows numbers to be hidden, attack a Federation outpost and suddenly Defiants are launched and well, kill you. If intelligence gets rumors of an impending attack they can be smuggled inside transports etcetera. Their compact size and ability to be left on planetbound facilities opens up a lot of options, including deception and just plain old deterrence.
This also lends them to being used as an atmospheric fighter, they can strafe ground forces and facilities and generally dominate any planetside battle as a combination fighter/bomber/ground attack plane/attack helicopter/flying tank with heavy shields. Put one of these up against a whole battalion of AT-AT Walkers that wandered in by mistake and watch the carnage (sorry Empire fanboys, but even you lot can't argue that*).
And if modified, the landing gear could allow it to stick to the saucer section of a larger ship. Useful for using the more extensive facilities onboard a older multirole ship.
As the Federation re-equips post Dominion, they will most likely focus on smaller, less crew intensive ships. The Intrepid class can replace the Galaxy for most purposes, (freeing them up to be general support ships within Federation space along with the Nebula's, and if there's another war, as tenders with docking brackets for repair and resupply in field). If expecting trouble an Intrepid can be accompanied by a couple of Defiants in the escort role, using the more extensive facilities (medical, better replicators) onboard to support them. An Intrepid can also be assigned to squads or wolfpacks of Defiants to provide support for ongoing operations (especially with their sensors), or they could use Akira's if they're feeling mean.
It gives the Federation heavy firepower anywhere within it's borders at a moment's notice, making life much harder for pirates and other vermin, with too many dangerously overpowering patrol ships to avoid.
And any hostile incursion into Federation space will be meet by a multitude of Defiants from nearby sectors, rushing in to support the Steamrunners and Akira's that are raining torpedoes on the interlopers. The Steamrunner being the long range border patrol ships and first line of defense against OUTSIDE invaders.
And once Voyager's new technology is incorporated into the design they not only become more combat effective, they could possibly become much faster strategically. With either quantum slipstream or coaxial warp drives fitted or using transwarp conduits situated throughout Federation space, large numbers of the ships can be called to any trouble spot quickly, overwhelming hostiles with instant massive amardas. Not only guaranteeing victory without much combat losses, but probably surrender with such a display of force.
It has been mentioned in the expanded universe that the Dominion amarda that disappeared going through the wormhole was in fact jumped forward twenty years into the future and will decend screaming upon an unsuspecting Deep Space Nine. If so the Dominion fleet is dead, local next-gen Defiants will cut them to pieces, keeping them busy, and then the rest of Starfleet will arrive to mop up. And by then due to Romulan detente Starfleet will most likely employ cloaks, just to make it more one sided.
This means that no local power has a chance against the Federation and barring some completely out of context threat like the Dominion and the Borg were and the Iconians in STO are, and the Typhon pack from STO realistically aren't. Cardassia will obviously become a Federation protectorate and the Breen surrendered, the Federation would not allow another hostile power to form. Besides the Romulans trusts the Federation much more than the Breen, and especially if the supernova plot is cannon the remaining Romulans will join the Federation. The Klingon Empire will never again war against the Federation, Martok likes humans and he's a very popular leader, and they will suspect trickery again. (But Star Trek always needs one cold war opponent of equal power and one super opponent that can only be defeated by original thinking). The Federation will continue to expand outwards, with neighboring systems making non aggression treaties and eventually through diplomacy and cultural contamination becoming Federation allies and then members.
Now imagine the Defiant mark II replacement.
*[And the most amazing thing about my arguments is I actually have a girlfriend IRL, 🖖even I'm suprised. And no, she's not my long lost twin sister, which is such a cliche that no self-respecting franchise would include it, seriously, what hack would write this stuff.?]
Goddamn... how long did this take you to write? It's fuckin' brilliant!
And this is why new Trek shows are prequels. They realized they've written the Federation into a corner.
Not sure I agree with all the details, but I appreciate all the effort and planning that went into this comment
And what about when another power manages to create a counter to this thing? You focus your entire military power into one unit type, all it takes is someone who doesn't like you to come up with a magic formula of their own to counter the ship, and your fucked.
I read your treatise on the Defiant, four years after you wrote it. Great work. Insight, imagination, hard work, spell check, it has it all. Where did you go to school?
How's the girlfriend thing these days? Married with kids yet?
I agree with your closing statement about Gene's vision. DS9 was the show that really cemented my love of Trek and made me love it more than Star Wars because it makes total sense they would run into an entity like the Dominion who weren't interested in diplomacy or making peace, who had a disposable army of growable troops and superior technology.
People look at an organization like Starfleet who are all inclusive and lacking in prejudice or cruelty and just want to all get along, they see that and they see weakness. They see a bunch of liberal hippies who need to be put in their place. The Defiant, as you so aptly put it, is Starfleet's pimp hand smacking down anyone who mistakes Starfleet's kindness for weakness.
+Senior Woodz Well said. Reality is not all sunshine and rainbows, liberals truely haven't figured this out yet. There will always be people who want nothing more than to take what you or someone else has by any means to include your freedom. Admittedly Starfleet wasn't pascifistic, they realized they needed to defend themselves from unknown threats. It wasn't until they encounted the Borg and Dominion that they realized that just defending yourself isn't enough, that there were enemies who would accept nothing but either your complete and utter defeat or thiers.
I tend to think of it like this. NASA is a scientific exploration organization that functions under the auspices of a military parent organization's mandate (the U.S. Airforce). It's basically a bunch of scientists scienceing under the watchful eye of armed service members.
Starfleet is supposed to be the opposite; a militarily structured fleet with defense functions, but under the overarching mandates of scientific and cultural exploration. That's what it's been, and what it should be. The thing is there's wiggle room in that. Based on circumstances, in times of peace, military and defense functions SHOULD take a back seat to Starfleet's guiding purpose. In times of war, the defense of people takes priority.
Starfleet is about making sure the people of the Federation have knowledge. Most of the time, that takes the form of pushing the bounds of what knowledge is available. Sometimes that means making sure that the people are alive to carry what they know. These disparate executions of that core mandate are not in conflict.
caffeinedelusions I totally agree with that assessment, but I also think Starfleet needs to be constantly looking for ways to improve the military defenses of their ships, making sure that their weapons and shields can better or match any of the major Alpha Quadrant powers because their territory spans a large portion of space and will always be under threat from someone else.
This is kind of why I get why Section 31 exists. I'd love to see a show focus on what those guys are doing in the background. I assume they'd be using cloaking technology. I would if I were them.
I'd actually be more interested in a show focusing on Starfleet Intelligence, and how it handles the internal covert war between OFFICIAL SFI doctrine and nonstate actors like S31. One that asks questions about the legitimacy of cloak and dagger espionage and where the moral lines get drawn.
As to the advance of technology... the Starfleet Corps of Engineers would agree with you. Just remember that invention is a process that answers need, and in times of peace, the need is for ships that can more effectively explore science and culture... while at the same time be ready for a fight.
By the same token, there's a reason within the setting that Starfleet sensors are considered second to none, and why many enemies fear the prospect of war with the Federation; what Starfleet ships lack in raw force, they routinely make up for with sophistication and innovation. You might fight a stronger or a hardier enemy, but you will never find a smarter one.
That is exactly why all of you misinterpret Genes vision. It is not about hippies it is about getting the human heart and mind BEYOND the predatory basic instinct and to aspire to something greater. If you think that is wrong or unrealistic, why do you even watch it? Because of the space battles? If so you all seriously missed the point.
Of course Genes vision is unrealistic...at the moment with our attitude and our social programming, but that was his vision..to overcome it and aspire to be something greater and more noble.
In our momentary social and mental development Genes non-war Starfleet might seem undergunned, but that is the vision...in a bright future, we would not need a large military force to get along...thats his whole point!
Btw: DS9 is one of the most removed ST series from Genes vision as possible. Of course his vision seemed unrealistic because Brannon Braga and his shitmate thought a warlike ST series far away from Genes vision would serve better ratings from our primitive selves..and surprise..it worked
DS9 was my favorite ST show, so defiant was my favorite ship :D pretty nasty firepower for something so small
I'm glad you noticed the deck problem. Every single piece of written information and diagram indicating 4 decks and at least in one episode Sisko went into the turbo-lift and said, "deck five".
Still one of the most badass ships starfleet ever made and one of my favorites.
Yea, It's just a writing error.. but still interesting how people try to justify things.
Well, even the Enterprise E had two missing decks. Trekkies have long thought the turbo lift counts some sections as a different deck since it can go horizontally.
Could be worse. The Enterprise A apparently had 75 decks in StarTrek V. LOL
If Sisko wants to go to deck 5, then the turbolift better take him to deck 5.
Or somebody is getting the mother f!@#$ing pimp hand.
Always great to see a sfdebris fan. Great video.
Small, maneuverable enough to skim the hulls of bigger ships preventing locks, a cloack to escape detection and can land on planets to drop off troops? Man, that's versatile.
Starfleet's naive view of non militarization has cost them tens of thousands of lives. You can still use a warship to explore, but you can't use an explorer vessel for war.
+phantasmo9998 They did that in The Original Series
phantasmo9998 better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war
silly sailor Perhaps. But an army marches on the grains grown by the gardener, for a future where gardeners can be and do in peace. A warrior in a garden is a gardener, for the garden is its own struggle. A warrior is a momentary and fleeting thing: anyone can fight, and eventually everyone does, but you cannot feed a future with swords. Better a gardener with a sword for a day, than a warrior who must learn to think of a plow for a lifetime.
That same view also probably prevented many conflicts by avoiding arms races and spooking neighbours, while also making the federation less threatening and more inviting for new members. So all up it saved millions of lives
@@stonem0013 I doubt that tbh. Frankly the reason nobody fucked with the federation was because of it's sheer size. It takes weeks to cross at warp 9.9 and was able to summon 40 ships to wolf 359 on less then a days notice at the height of its victory disease. That isn't to mention its massive population and industrial base.
And before they really had that, they had a real battle fleet, like we see in tos. The Constitution Class is a warship with a fast computer.
For a mass produced ship, we don't see a lot of them. I would have liked to see a wing of defiants :
+Revan BERMAN!!
Defiants should be like the bomber corps. Mod the Periguine fighters with twin Defiant pulse cannons and micro torps. Have squadrons of Periguines escorting the Defiants as an "Air Wing". Come up with Carrier Starships to carry the Periguines when they are not in use, or have to travel over much longer ranges to get on station. Had Starfleet produced this kind of combo on a large scale, it could be argued they wouldn't have suffered nearly the loss of ships they did. Wings of Defiants being led in by Squadrons of Defiantized Periguines would effectively imitated Dominion Bug-Fighter swarm attacks right back at the Dominion. Not only that, the Periguines being smaller could manuver even tighter to harass the Bugs even better, allowing the Defiants more room to strafe their targets without worrying about Bugs chasing them. Those that do can be shot at with the Type 10 Phaser "Anti-Air" strips.
That would be because the producers seemed to believe the audience are idiots and can't separate the specific ship with a random ship of the same class.
Which is why there were no Intrepid, Sovereign or Defiant class ships shown being destroyed in the Dominion war scenes. (With the exception of the 2nd battle of Chintoka in regards to the U.s.s Defiant)
Jon Council There are non-canon carriers. Problem is the fighters aren't as good as the ships. The fighters were basically large shuttlecraft. The fighters did not seem to be all that effective in the battles that we saw them in. In fact I daresay the fighters were basically cannon fodder for all intensive purposes. Unless I basically had plot armor shuttlecraft and small fighters in the Star Trek universe don't seem all that effective. Having attack wings of defiant class ships and supplemented with Akira class vessels would probably be the only way for the Federation to have less casualties in this war.
As much as I thought so about the fighters. Hence my wanting to mini Defiantize them
The intro movie for Star Trek Armada had a perfect maneuver for the Defiant Class, single handedly taking out a D'deridex class. Not cannon, but still cool.
ArchOfWinter the part where it flew inside the warbird dropping off mines?
YES!
Wish we could have seen that in an episode or fight a dominion battleship like sisko did in the mirror universe episode
The Defiant-class U.S.S. Avenger had a cloaking device on loan from Martok and the (loyal) Klingons. That may be where the confusion comes from.
I miss that game.
Wouldn't be surprised if the klingons (especially Martok) would give that little Federation BoP some cloak.
I always saw the defiant as more of a gunship rather than true starship.
eh, i guess, id give that to the steam runner class.
Heavy fighter escort for Galaxy, Nebula, Constellation, Miranda and Excelsior-class starships.
Think of a Nimitz-Class carrier and F-14D's.
@@rogerbeckner6419 I'd say Defiant was more of A-6 and A-10 combined....
True dat.
She is the Bird of Prey of star fleet
Starfleet is a military. The Federation may not like that term but it is. In real life nations from around the world deploy their military for combat operations and humanitarian aid. I live in a town near a U.S military base, so I have a few military friends, and while by no means makes me an expert, I can say that some of them have been deployed to fight over seas or help during natural disasters. Starfleet is just a not meant to be offense military, sort of like the military Japan maintains.
Starfleet is more like NASA and the Military combined.
I would argue that Starfleet is paramilitary, as in taking organizational structures and traditions. Starfleet is more akin to the US Coast Guard than the US Navy in many respects.
Yukin1990 Means the Japanese Self Defense Force. Under the treaty that ended World War II the Japanese are no longer allowed to wage offensive war, however that still does not preclude their need to defend themselves from outside aggression, thus, the Japanese Self Defense Force. A military with the doctrine of pure defense of the Japanese nation. They won't start none, but they will finish it.
Starfleet started as a exploration organization that used a military organizational structure. This was apparently due to the fact that they had ship crews that would benefit from having a chain of command. However, defense wasn’t Starfleet’s main role. The combat capability that they had was only to protect the ship and maintain ship security.
It wasn’t until the Klingons threatened the Federation that they became more of a military force.
@@3Rayfire Remind me what Have I type in the comment??
in the undiscovered country starfleet was seen as a military organization. Even in TOS there is a heavy undertone that starfleet is a military organization. It's only in the TNG era where starfleet was thought of as explorers.
And even in TNG there was an episode in which the crew loses all memory relevant to the identity of the enterprise, the federation and themselves. Upon seeing the weapons loadout on a screen, Worf immediately concludes "This is a warship".
+Keliasar
That's worf's klingon nature projecting. Worf wishes everything is a warship. He calls prune juice a warrior's drink.
It is, only a true warrior can keep fighting and not shit his pants while on prune juice.
Starfeet manufactures heavy armaments for it's ships, has ranks and refers to it's judicial system which is shown to be independent of the civilian courts as court martials literally a military court. There are no rational arguments against Starfleet being a military organization.
We can assume Picard is a Master and Commander.
I like the fact that the empire has star destroyers that are massive, cannot shoot straight and can be brought down by fighters.
And then theirs Starfleet who has a compact warship, powerful enough to take on the borg, make it’s way through most of the war and was brought down in a one off.
Let me be honest seeing defiant class ships hunt in packs is more terrifying than a fleet of star destroyers.
Given the Treaty of Algernon, it's not possible for any other Defiant class ship to be equipped with a cloak as standard. The San Paulo or Valiant certainly didn't seem to carry that tech.
But the ablative armour, as I understood, worked much like modern day reactive armour. It's a layer of dragon scale like armour flaps that melt away from particle weapon hits before it can reach the hull. I could be wrong, I just recall having this discussion years ago about the technical specs of the Defiant.
Not sure how useful landing would be for a Defiant. It isn't large enough to carry many troops to support a planetary ground campaign unless deployed in significant numbers. But I can see it capable of atmospheric flight for that reason, air support (think Martok's calvary raid in that episode with Worf's Da'har Master friend). With landing to be used to rearm, resupply, and repair. Definitely an interesting tidbit feature that would have been nice to see in a DS9 episode.
It's small , so I could see it landing commando units when transporting tech would not be possible. And if that team was doing recon to take out the place a Defiant could provide some heady air support.
Superheavy gunship. Too bad nobody uses armored vehicles.
Warp 8, It would be lovely if the federation had tanks.
We have marines in the beta section so maybe tanks are in the non canon section,
Definitely a "tough little ship"
....little?
ship?!
Just discovered your channel. Really liking it so far! Thanks for the effort you put into these vids :). Always loved Defiant. Especially Starship Down was good.
+Stealth17 Gaming Glad you enjoyed!
I always thought that Starfleet was stupid for not having any dedicated warships, for defense if nothing else. It reminds me of a quote I heard once: "Pacifists can only exist when defended by those who are not; otherwise they end up dead or enslaved."
or, more succinctly, Pacifism is for future slaves.
That's because for the most part, their exploration vessels were overengineered to be able to handle their primary call of duty as well as other known civilizations dedicated warships.
Starfleet already had warships. They just weren't called that.
"Pacifism is a luxury bought with the blood of the Valorous"
But look at it this way...the Federation held of the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians with science vessels...once they started building dedicated warships they came up with Defiant, Sabre, and Akira class...badass ships alone but they travel in packs....as seen in the voyager episode when the doctor traveled to the Prometheus....and when the Federation dabbled in cloaking technology they went crazy and created phase technology....or as I like to call it the "you can't see me, you can't touch me" middle finger to the Romulans
I think we need more defiants
Speak softly and carry a big stick. I do like that starfleet is a science exploratory and diplomatic organization, but they live in a dangerous universe if you want to keep the peace you have to be able to defend it it.
Teddy Roosevelt strikes again!!
To quote Captain Jean-Luc Picard I remember a time when we were explorers
Haven't seen the video yet, but that's something I've been saying for a couple of years now. The Klingons, Cardassians, Romulans, the Dominion... they all go on about how "soft and decadent" humans are, yet humans still manage to go virtually toe-to-toe with all of those races' most advanced weapons of war, not to mention the Borg, in what are essentially luxury cruise liners. Imagine if humans focused strictly on pure warships. The Defiant would just be the tip of the iceberg.
I suppose its because of Quark's speech that humans always come out on top. 'Take away the creature comforts'.
I forgot all about that speech, but yeah, that's a similar concept.
It's really that for as much as any species wants to be militarily focused ,with out the hard science and logistics to back it up.Those troops wont any have the right gear,food,and weapons.The humans in trek have the science and logistics down,its just really how hard they wanna swing that pimp hand .
By the end of the Dominion War their should have been a good 300 Defiants atleast.
"THIS. IS. TERRA!"
No, that is how many should have been assigned to the DS9 station and the Bajoran Sector at the beginning of the series. Ten times as many should have been there once the Dominion's existence was confirmed. The whole of The Federation, given it's size (at least 1,625,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 cubic miles) and resources therein, should have had 300,000,000 just of that particular class of ship by the beginning of the war. And an incalculable number more by the end of it. (Not that crazy considering the USAAF alone had 300,000 planes by the end of 1945 and could produce one every few minutes.) Star Trek writers have no sense of scale.
THANK YOU! LR....you’re awesome! Broke it down to the point where I admire this little “Honey Badger” even more.
a really big carrier Starship that would Carrie defiance class ships would be very cool
blacksheep, Like the infinity in halo? Now that would be cool. Just seeing a modded galaxy class sending them out in swarms.
Just a thought. But I always thought the Defiant class ships were basically meant to replace craft like the Mars defense perimeter that got slapped aside with ease. Basically these craft would be assigned to small starbases and planets as local defenders. A fleet of them coming together for a larger attack would see them combining fire so as to swiftly overwhelm the defenses of the borg or any other aggressor. Since it is not a typical Star Fleet vessel it did not perform patrols and scientific surveys. It had one role. Combat. And they never made them in quantities to be used as originally intended.
One question on your statement about cloaks. Did Valiant or Sao Paulo ever cloak? If they did then it was standard on the only ships we saw.
Nice video. Detailed, informative & well thought out. I always like the USS Defiant & its class of starships. By no means perfect but it actually makes sense that Starfleet would get its first true warship somewhat wrong in key areas since they really haven't had to build something like that before. Again good video, cool graphics, & the models are pretty sweet. Woodrow -
Yea, never thought of it like that - but that makes a lot of sense.
My thought on the Defiant was not a ship with teeth but a cheap expendable ship with teeth. What most people who complain about the Defiant seems to forget that it's a small ship that needs few resources, manned by a small crew. A loss of a Defiant pales in comparison to a lose of a Excelsior, or a Galaxy, or an Akira. The only ships you can compare it to in terms of cost would be Mirandas and the Oberth. Now think of it that way, is the Defiant a successful design? I certainly think so.
That thinking is all well and good however in the real world they would have needed warships from day one. Getting over your fighting tendencies is all well and good but we know for a fact that even in TOS there are factions that don't like us. If you don't have warships and they do your toast.
James, you're right but I think Starfleet had gotten so big and had encompassed so many worlds/allies that its size & resources would've been a deterrent for most would be enemies. Also, even though ships like the Enterprise were exploratory research vessel at heart, they could still pack a punch & most adversaries knew this. Starfleet could/would lose a ship here & there to hostel encounters but hadn't had a need for attack based starships for a while and you know how Starfleet/humanity acts (out of sight, out of mind) & Starfleet in general always seemed more reactionary than proactive.
Another, related, angle is the Defiant class being far less independent. The lack of amenities, issues with sustaining speed, tiny medbay, ect., ect. would be problems for a ship intended to wander a long way on long missions. But that isn't what the Defiant is for... However it does seem to be what pretty much every other Starfleet design is meant to do (or at least be capable of).
As mentioned in the vid, it seems like the Defiant is meant to be close to a base or part of an armada. Which makes sense as part of a defensive war fleet and also fits nicely for someplace like DS9. Big change in design philosophy though.
I think Starfleet going through “phases” of militarism based on the circumstances of the time (like the discovery of the Borg, conflict with the Cardassians, and a huge war with the Dominion) is a very natural idea and makes a lot of sense. Of course an organization would lean toward the militaristic during tomes of strife and lean towards more peaceful endeavors during peactime. And of course a massive and disruptive event like the Dominion War might have a permanent (or semi-permanent) effect on Starfleet. Such an event would profoundly impact any organization.
I think Genes original vision of Starfleet is what starfleeet itself strived to be. They wanted to be an exploration and research organisation. But pacifism only works if everyone is a pacifist and not even the alpha and beta quadrants are fully pacifistic, let alone the rest of the galaxy. Therefore starfleet found itself becoming ever more militaristic until it became what it was during the Dominion war. Thus I don't think Genes vision of the Starfleet to be bad, it was merely optimistic and not something that could survive contact with Dominion or the Borg.
No society, no matter how evolved or enlightened, has ever lasted a minute without a complete monopoly on force.
And it doesn't have any stupid windows.
yes it does, there are 2 rows on ether side on the bottom of the main hull, looking inwoods, just above where the warp nacelels meet the hull, they are not obvvious and are where they are least likely to take fire (assuming someone compatent is piloting) but it does have some windows
Thanks. At least it isn't covered in them like every other 24th century Starfleet ship. Except I think Prometheus.
Don't worry about it, Starfleet gets plenty of pure warships by 2409...
Just in time to get them all smacked around by the Iconians in 2410.
great stuff, great analysis as always.
I love the defiant such a cool little warship and the move from scientists to pragmatists in a fragmented galaxy was great. I would of loved to see her with a compliment of elite soldiers ready for quick deployment
+jonny5777 They apparently had them..would have been interesting.
Needed phaser strips becuz had to go towards the target to shoot pulse phasers so had no weapons for other angles
While it's not specifically addressed, I'm fairly confident the USS Valiant had ablative armour. You see from outside views it take at least 6 torpedoes from the battleship with the shields down, another 8 or so are seen incoming from the bridges viewscreen followed by "impact shakes". This seems like a lot of hurt for a ship with shields down, Galaxies can't take that kind of punishment (a nudge to the nacelle was enough to destroy the Enterprise, Cause and Effect), Intrepids can probably take it (Year of Hell) but that's spread over a much larger ship that is in large parts non-essential systems.
+Slavir Nabru that's why I said I felt there was some evidence of it..but it's never stated
from what i recall from reading the DS9 technical manual, the nose piece on the Defiant class starship was a separable heavy warhead (some super tri-cobalt warhead). it was supposed to be the key feature that made the Defiant class formidable against the Borg cube. The Defiant class ship was supposed to be nimble and difficult to hit allowing it to get the warhead to the Borg cube intact.
i recall reading somewhere the the nose separation was to basically be a giant torpedo warhead, they would seperate the nose which would move under its own power, of what type I am unsure, and would do massive damage when it went off while also allowing time for the Defiant class ship to escape, although without the nose mounted deflector it would result in the ship being stuck at impulse. It was a last resort weapon.
I’m still confused why there’s any debate on The question is Starfleet a military the Defiant is just the most obvious example of how it clearly is, to me the answer comes clearly in Errand of Mercy where Kirk says "I'm a soldier, not a diplomat. I can only tell you the truth." then it’s reinforced by the Kobayashi maru you don’t have a test like that for you command students unless militaryConcerns of them freezing up in combat or a thing
Drew Johnson the original federation MO is to science and exploration centered yet be able to protect yourself if needed. So yes fighting was a concern but not at the for front.
JPaul Lightfoot you’re missing what I’m saying Yes they have they have a scientific focus but there still soldiers, a United States airman once told me a story about a base in Afghanistan that got Attacked the Terrorist managed to get through the gate and started shooting up the place they then ran into A pair of finance airmen, there for some pay issue or another, and these airmen shot them, The point was that all airmen need to be ready for a fight, it becomes clearer and clearer as you watch the early TNG with the Movies and late DS9 in mind that Starfleet had lost prospective they forget that they are there in-part as a defense against something bad coming out of the black unknown, I agree with Lore that Gene created a great world but not every idea he had was gospel, it’s logical to see Kirk and Sisko as soldiers and the fans like the idea so what’s the problem?
I think it's a bit of public relations and image thing, where the military role is distinctly secondary or contextual.
lets be honest. Federation has been around for 300+ years, of which it probably spent at least 250 either fighting in a war or having some kind of Cold War with one neighboring star empire or the other
Uhhhhhh...the Romulans weren't allies of the Dominion. Sisko and Garak teamed-up to trick the Romulans into believing the Dominion wanted to destroy the Romulan Empire, so they came into the war as an ally of the Federation. This is a HUGE plot point in DS9.
The main characters of the show disagree with you
Nope. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Pale_Moonlight
"After the recent loss of a Federation ship due to the Romulans allowing the Dominion passage through their territory, *Sisko decides that in order for the Federation and its allies to win the war, he must bring the Romulans in on their side.* However, as he proceeds with the effort, he is forced to make greater and greater moral and ethical compromises, but becomes too deeply involved to turn back.
Sisko enlists the help of former Cardassian spy Elim Garak (Andrew Robinson) to obtain intelligence from Cardassia, assuming the Dominion must be considering a conquest of Romulus eventually, but all of Garak's contacts end up dead shortly after communicating with him. *Garak instead suggests they forge a recording of Dominion leaders discussing a surprise attack.* Hesitant, but driven forward by the Dominion's recent conquest of Betazed, Sisko obtains permission from Starfleet to proceed.
...
*Subsequently, the Romulans join with the Federation against the Dominion and quickly start striking at nearby Dominion outposts.* At the end of his log entry, Sisko admits that Garak was right about a guilty conscience being a small price to pay, and states, somewhat uncertainly, that he can live with his decision for the good of the Alpha Quadrant. He then orders the computer to delete the entire log entry."
It's one of my favorite DS9 episodes. I remember it quite clearly and I watched it on DVD a few months ago.
Nice wiki that can be editted by anyone. That aside, the dialogue indicates differently.
Have you even watched the episode in question? There is no more authoritative source for the plot than the episode itself. ua-cam.com/video/StF9jrhw-pU/v-deo.html. Also, what are you thinking criticizing wiki sources when you quote Memory Alpha (a Wikia site) in every video you make?
You were wrong. Be a man and admit it. It was never my intent to embarrass you, only to correct you. Stop making a fool of yourself.
There's nothing wrong with criticising a source ..even if you use it..everything has flaws. And your opinions are at odds with that of the main cast. Your issues are with the main characters of the series - not me.
Sisko says that the Defiant was just one ship amongst new classes of Federation warships. That is why it was classified as an escort, since it was meant to be an important part of the new Federation battlefleet. As for its other failings, the ship was a prototype and so lots of things were tried on it that never really worked. Hence Chief O'Brien's massive upgrade and modification list, which took years to finish and the scene were Nog tells Worf that the piece of bridge equipment just doesn't work, with Worf essentially saying we have try everything before reporting that. As for the nose being a torpedo, the nose contains the main deflector which is stated many times in TNG to be the most powerful part of the ship besides the warp drive itself. So as I understand it in a last ditch move, the Defiant (I don't know if this was class feature or just in the prototype) could charge all remaining power into the nose deflector and fire it at high relativistic speeds to ram a cube then detonate inside. I believe the information for this comes from the script of 'First Contact' where Worf is banging that panel to intionate the process, but probably do to, too much damage it wouldn't fire. So Worf orders for ramming speed to manually detonate it.
I have to agree with you about needing war ships. Even if you are not looking to expand through war, you need a way to defend yourself, because when you are exploring, you can not just go blindly out, with no way to protect yourself.
Galaxy class had kids on them for Pete's sake so the Federation should have at least a military branch that's dedicated solely to the defense of the Federation. Considering how badly Star Fleet Headquarters got pounded I find it hard to believe the Feds wouldn't have gone down that path in at least some fashion beyond building the little ship that could.
I would argue that the AKira was the same way as the Defiant so they had two 'war' vessels.. But it did seem hard for them to let that go.
Hoehner Tim
Things changed drastically some time between Kirk's Starfleet to Picard's Starfleet. Even without the Kelvin timeline or Gene's intentions, Kirk's Starfleet was more combat capable vs TNG era.
the Organian Peace Treaty likely had something to do with it.
i dont think gene would have a problem with this ship .. what he would have a problem with is that new dog shit discovery joke
+Brian Berthold He was extremely pacifistic
Gene was an amazing man but Kirks TOS enterprise was quite heavily armed so he saw the need for heavily armed exploration vessels
@@LoreReloaded He also spouted the Federation’s virtues of not needing money but wrote lyrics to the Start Trek intro that he never released just so he could get the royalties.
The Defiant is my favorite ship, so there is that. It follows since DS9 is my favorite show of the bunch.
Those two Galaxy classes forcing that poor Galor out of the way with phasers alone never gets old.
Don't worry Gene's vision will eventually win out (peace is our destiny) no matter how cool the defiant may be. (Damnit it's so cool)
Look up PhoENIX theory on youtube. Very intriguing, if sometimes far-fetched (physics of Entanglement Networks and information eXchange)
Even peace needs a protector! =)
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
If you want peace, prepare for war.
History has shown the foolish error made over and over again that "you have to be a target to be peaceful" to not work.
Interesting that at the end you took a swipe at Gene, and although DS9 is favorite of all the Trek series only closely followed by TNG, its not because of the Dominion War, although if you consider at the time Trek as a overall name was up against other Sci Fi shows that were more combat based like Stargate and Babylon 5, it makes sense that Trek would do the same too in an event to prevent loose of audience.
That being said I actually believe that DS9 is probably the closest to Gene's vision than you think. The show depicts inter species relationships, alien commerce, exploration, religion, the development of science to improve the world, and also family as well as species mythology. The negative elements have been seen before, such as the comparison of Admiral Layton from the episodes Home Front and Paradise Lost to the actions of the conspirators in the Trek movie "Undiscovered Country. The fear of the unknown or the fear of change that creates such an toxic atmosphere has been seen through out human history, and both the movie and shows offer a futuristic feeling of this. The Defiant is simply put, another part of that fear.
One thing I will say for your review is that trying to explain a ship that even Starfleet and Ben Sisko can't really explain seem silly. You fail to realize that this is purely science fiction.
There is still speculation that DS9 was originally stolen from the writer of Babylon 5...
@@atonyharding frankly... Starfleet was shown previously to have large starbases and it stands to reason it would have infrastructure. It had a lot of original content. And by the way - Defiant was DS9's Seven of Nine - rating tool, because you can't have TREK without SHIP.
About the detacheable nose: I read somewhere that the ship's supply of torpedoes was stored there and that they could be armed in there when detaching the nose to use it as a massive torpedo.
Denorius I read that also, maybe In an old model building diagram.....
As far back as TOS, Starfleet was described as a "combined service". Later series elaborated on this. I'm pretty sure that they stated a few times that the military was an ARM of Starfleet, like NASA and the military being joined at the hip. But, space exploration and scientific research were always their primary missions. This could be seen in ENT, how although the NX-01 began with basic self-defense capabilities (standard on all later starships) it only became full-on battle-ready when the ship was upgraded and complimented with MACOs, to confront the Xindi. The MACO's could be seen as the equivalent of being a Starfleet Marines. They were originally their own organization, later integrated into Starfleet after the Earth-Romulan War (ST: Beyond). The existence of Colonel West in ST:VI suggests that the defensive branch have their own military-type ranking system, different from the naval-type ranking of the rest of Starfleet.
I just have to say, i agree entirely regarding the comment on Gene. He had an amazing idea, and he wanted to portray humanity as having become to enlightened, that we would not need such ships as those built for war. The only problem with this, is the fact that humans will never become like this. Not to mention, there is no way in hell that the galaxy/universe is as friendly as portrayed on Star Trek overall. The need for a military division within Starfleet is mandatory for the safety and security of the federation.
Personally, this is why i enjoy the abrams universe trek so much, because humans act more human, the ships seem to be more deadly than their prime timeline counterparts, and overall, the universe feels more as it should regarding hostility.
I also am a firm believer that the Makos should have been kept, or at the very least, brought back in all versions of trek. We need military minded security staff, much as the Master at Arms is in current naval ships...
It's a parallel to modern issues. People on the left, for example, advocate for peace and their stance is less defense spending leads to more peace when in reality it makes you vulnerable and more likely to be attacked. So the concept of deterrents enters there. Having a large nuclear arsenal was important in the cold war to show enemies of the USA (for example) that nuclear war would lead to mutual destruction. Having a strong military does not mean you intend to use it, just that you are ready. Star Trek has always had parallels with modern events and moral dilemmas. DS9 leaned heavily on the concepts surrounding war and military, where TNG delved more into the social questions.
llamapi3 My stance is always try for peace, but be prepared for war.
Yep exactly. I have the same stance but if you're going to go to war, make sure you win - quickly.
It's a Star Fleet Bird of Prey. It's meant to fight in packs. That's why the Defiant is always flanked by Miranda classes in the battles.
Great video! 👍👍
Imagine a formation of defiant class like the whitestars In B5
I don't mind Starfleet not being a military. Just tell me what organisation is responsible for defending the Federation from hostile lifeforms. That's Starfleet you say, then it's a military and should have warships.
On the "Nose separation:" It way be something as simple as being able to switch out equipment packages with a quick turn-around time. Remember in "Best of Both Worlds" when they tried to use the Deflector as a giant cannon for use against the Borg, which in turn burned out the deflector itself. Seeing as how the Defiant's deflector is in the nose and the nose is supposedly detachable it seems reasonable to assume that being able to replace the deflector in a couple of hours rather than days or weeks the way the Enterprise had to would be very useful.
I also remember seeing somewhere the "nose" of the Defiant was detachable. If I remember correctly it was supposed to be able to be turned into a last ditch warhead or somesuch.
Capt sisko called it a strip down battleship in the first episode it was in. Was it a battleship?
studinthemaking
It was a ship build for battle. By definition, yes. But by classification, no.
Yea, It doesn't meet the specifications of a 'battleship' - i think he was more just saying like headless said.. a ship made for battle.
Dukat calls it the most heavily armed ship in the sector.
Not canon, but in star trek birth of federation game it is said, the defiant is classified as heavy escort but bears more firepower then most heavy cruisers. So calling it a strip down battleship is not so wrong i guess.
It's got an analogue of shop type in the 1930s. Some country designed a type of ship called the 'pocket battleship'. It was armored, armed like a big cruiser and built faster than the bigger ships but was smaller in design and could go toe toe with the big fleets. That's what I'm reminded of anyway. A group of defiant classes in a fleet action would have been scary to face against!
There should be to spared branch in my opinion. First Starfleet the second would Federation Navy. One could purely military and deference campaigns and the other would still be the same as it is.
Darth Revan I compleatly agree ive had the idea for an au fanfiction were the federation forms up a new military branch to better protect the federation
Is that not Section 31?
Section 31 is more like the CIA of Starfleet than its own military branch.
Darth Revan there should be a federation Marine Corps
You can't actually have a separate Federation Navy, and I'll tell you why. Every Starfleet exploration vessel goes out into deep space, where they could meet anything. If you have the peaceful exploration vessel with limited defense capabilities, they're going to be vulnerable to anything until the actual military vessel shows up. Having a hybrid service is actually the much more reasonable scenario as you're not dividing your resources. The same things you need for a top tier exploration vessel are what you'd need for a top tier military vessel.
Starfleet already has an intelligence agency, Section 31 is not only Deniable Ops, but a Deniable Organization.
Playing Star Trek Armada II taught me that the Defiant is actually a terrible anti-Borg warship; the instant the shields go down or are adapted to, the ship is now a Borg vessel.
With such a small crew and such little space, it would be impossible to prevent it from being assimilated and turned against you.
Lore i think you really nailed it down on this ship great job. The Defiant is a great tough little ship for its design and purpose even Riker said so lol in First Contact. Despite its flaws on introduction i am still more of a fan of the Intrepid Class though. It was far more adaptable and capable of upgrade than others. Yet its smaller stature alowed it maneuverability.
So...the Defiant is the Feddie counterpart to the SSV Normandy?
jocax188723 More like SSV Normandy have the similar design in mind as the Defiant class!!
In concept sure although Ds9 beat mass effect to the post by 8 or nine years
More like the Normandy is the Systems Alliance Defiant.
SFdebris?
Loved the video on my favourite ship
My personal favorite scifi ship is the X304 Daedalus from stargate . my brothers favorite is the defiant, so we jive back and forth from time to time. once while he was watching through DS9 again he texts me and says "Sisko just got the defiant shit gets real now" I then replied " isnt that the episode where it gets its ass kicked for the first time ?" his response was only this "shut up " lmao.
DAKKADAKKADAKKA!
Pump Hand!!!!
Sfdebris rocks
The starship equivalent of an A-10 Warthog.. Great point and I can see it being used as a ground attack and support ship. It has been my fav since it came out in season 3. Reminds me of the Millennium Falcon in it's usability as well as being a good lone ship to have when a bigger ship for most missions is overkill.
The separating nose section, I've read, is supposed to be a last ditch weapon complete with a warhead and an impulse drive to propel it towards a target. It was suggested that, though it would lose the main deflector shield, the standard defensive shields would be sufficient for the ship to be still capable of low warp speeds.
I disagree. The Defiant was clearly built to be a long range science vessel.
to study long term exposure to norecreational facilities on starships faraway from home?
No, to study the effects of pulse phaser cannon and quantum torpedoes on the sheilds and hulls of Borg and Jem'Hadar ships (although testing the lack of recreation facilities may have been a secondary side objective)
More likely it was built as a pleasure barge.
Captain Siskos little yacht. Always on a tour between Ferenginar and Risa.
Sorry it's a WARSHIP DEAL WITH IT
The Defiant class was a solid PT boat/corvette design. Fast, agile, and armed well enough to kill much larger starship, but unable to carry out long cruises.
This is only partly related to Defiant, because she works with them, but i always saw the Miranda class as the "Destroyer Escort" of Star Fleet. Before the Defiant class it was the Miranda that had the role that Defiant class ships filled. No, not the role of (dedicated) war ship exactly, but as a ship that was well armed, (for its size), and used for patrol and escort duties for many years. Miranda class ships were also spartan inside (though larger than Defiant). They were mostly old ships by the time of the Dominion war and there hulls were not armored, but in the mid-war timeframe the textures of the Miranda hull changes so it may be that there were still Miranda class ships being built or the remaining ones were finally refitted with a thicker skin.
lol, I loved the video. And the comment about the size of the ship not making sense or being standard in the show was classic, a star fleet gallifrey alliance. :D Though if that did happen and the defiant was the best they could do, the time lords were holding back tech. lol
Think about it, 'small and compact as possible'. Not only does it make it fast, agile, and able to land on ground, it means they can be built with a minimum of resources which means one can, presumably, construct they quickly vs the bigger ships.
Just to tell that the separation for the Defiant makes more sense than for most other vessels excluding the Galaxy class (since she needed to get the civilians to safety). For the Defiant according to my information the nose peace could separate for 4 reasons. First: would be as an life boat if the main frame of the ship is heavily damaged as such it was way more comfortable than the actual rescue capsules. Secound: separated its an sublight fast impulse vessel at the size of an runabout and can be used as a cutter to deploy troops to a planets surface or enemy ship while the rest of the ship stayed in save distance. Third: it could be remote controlled from the Defiants bridge and through also armed with an phaser array and photon torpedos could be used to pursue enemy ships quite like an early installment of the multi vector attack mode seen on later vessels. And least forth: it had Antimatter storrages on it and could be used in emergency situations as kind of a last resort Warhead leaving the main ship incapable of warp speed since its loss of its main deflector but could come in handy in situations like in ST Nemesis to have a last trick up your sleeve if it comes down to ramming the opponents vessel.
@Lore Reloaded it was CLEARLY stated that Defiant was "prototype of would be a NEW FEDERATION BATTLEFLEET" ! So ship was designed to be used - unlike all other federation fleets - in large numbers in one place. These vessels of limited endurance and ability were just supposed to be attached to strategic positions and dispatched toward enemy in LARGE NUMBERS (for Starfleet - like 5 ;) ) . Unlike presenting single target, it would present enemy with many starship-level class firepower packages in little more than 'fighter' shell. That was in line with non-military Starfleet having doing starfleet things and in addition - carrying VERY BIG STICK. Also, good writers could have explored Roddenberry's premises as plot points, and indeed they have. Starfleet was not supposed to be traditional "Imperial Navy" - rather something close to Japanese Maritime Self-Defence Force. Also, in Andromeda series - Roddenberry DID design military fleet, and boy, what a fleet it was !
Great vid and I agree with you about the Rodenberry principal thing #WARSHIPS FOR OUR FLEETS AND HELP FOR HEROES
The idea of the separating nose is intriguing.
Just based off of this vid, all I can think of for this purpose would be a concept-turned-incorporated ability to provide a drone-drogue weapons/defense platform to provide flanking coverage for larger ships. As the Defiant was classified as an Escort, its heavy weapons and deflectors would be better utilized to this end rather than for the ship itself.
In a way, this could also be an evolutionary step in ship seperation as mentioned by Scotty in TOS, the Enterprise-D, and the later Prometheus Class with its multi-seperational ability.
One thing I noticed was your hang up with the speed of the vessel. I once owned two mini's both 1275GT models. The thing is that one was faster than the other without any changes to the engine undertaken,
I look at the Defiant as a little warship designed specifically to attack in larger battle groups or in smaller hit and run fleets. Designed to be smaller and more agile (like Birds of Prey) then the larger star ships, it can hug tight around enemy battle cruisers avoiding target locks and therefore cause more damage through multiple hits. It's more to protect the larger star ships that would more than likely be carrying ground troops - hence the classification, escort. What I like about the Defiant is that it's way overpowered making it more of a destroyer. It's a true warship as there are no leisure comforts and all crew quarters are all bunks (like a sub).
I love that Starfleet has multipurpose ships for exploring space as well as defense...but eventually, you're going to need a few "I'mma punch you in the face" starship classes to prove you're not pushovers when you're tested.
Tech Manual says the nose cone can be fired as a last-ditch warhead, containing as it does a substantial part of the ship's self-destruct package. 6 quantum torpedoes and impulse power.
I love the Defiant because it's like a Super Hornet of a starship - it's compact yet can carry a lot of hurt. Considering how Star Trek has a lot of fights, the Defiant fits right in.
Also could you imagine Sisko trying to take care of business with a big Nebula-class or Akira-class starship?
Yea, he couldn't use it in near the same way.
Amazing video thanks for a comprehensive overview and accompanying commentary! And I think what the Defiant Class pretty much became was an A-10 Thunderbolt II Warthog for Starfleet like it was slow and is meant to kill things and that's it. So it does not need to go more then cruising speed as it can just land at a ground Station and be at the front. So you don't need to go more then Warp 3, unless otherwise needed ofcourse. And since at that time (which only in Star Trek Online's era did the reality change change.) the Borg came to them so they did not need to chase one down and if the did why not intercept it with a Galaxy? Or a squadron of them? Or even an entire fleet? And I did not know they were spamable, Aka cheap and easy enough to make so you make it on mass, something you can't do with any other ship class in Starfleet.
Speaking of why does Star fleet need to look a military? Because we all know it is but like The United States Military which does not look like a research, Humanitarian Government agency which is also a world police. (Because some other Countries are to lazy to even police themselves.) Which is the vast majority of things they do as they hate having to fight a war as The US does not go looking or pick fights and really does like wasting its time participating in one.
Which the UN can fight a war it's just not meant too, nore does it have an standing army aka Peacekeepers big enough to fight one. Which at the end of the day is NATO's job anyway and its there's as no one else wants to help...
So I don't think that Star Fleet having a few war ships is a bad thing or ruins Gene Roddenberry's idea. If they have them incase they need it which in reality how many times did they? Like A normal Starfleet Starship is more then enough for all then the most trying of times which the Federation a vast majority of the time is at Peace. So why wast time and effort to make it look like a military? And ruin its image. Which Starfleet not looking like a real military is most of the reason why it grows and stays at peace. Which at the end of the day the Bad guys aren't fooled which ends up making them look crazy and look even more like bad guys.
Also it not unheard of in our time to have a small out of place deck like that. There is no reason why the bottom of the nose can't be one. It is cut of from the rest of the other decks so what would could you call it?
Can't wait to see your sovereign class lore!