Siemens vs Homeline: Neutral Bonding Screws + When are They Used?
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- Опубліковано 23 тра 2022
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Bill, thanks for the informative video. Another GREAT one!
Thanks so much Donald!
The panel has a disconnect also. Do I need to bond them still.
Thanks for the info sparky. I Upgraded my panel last yr to a square D 24/48 Panel and its 1st in line. We don't have direct disconnects here in my state. The box connects right to the meter.
Belatedly dropping in, Bill, at 0:25 you say the Homeline is 1/4"-20 and the Siemens is 1/4"-32. That does not seem like it could be right, 1/4"-32 is not a normal standard thread. Since the screws appear to be the same diameter, it's almost certainly the case that the Homeline is 1/4"-20 and the Siemens is 1/4"-28.
20 and 28 are the coarse and fine thread pitches for 1/4" screws, although 1/4"-28 is relatively rare. (Another possibility is the Homeline is #10-32 and the Siemens is #10-24, as 24 and 32 threads per inch are the coarse and fine thread for #10 (0.189" diameter, but that seems backwards from what you show. The Square D PKNBSCP kit includes four 1/4-20" screws and two #10-32 screws. Yet a third possibility is the Siemens is metric, but that seems very unlikely, given the whole ITE history of the product line.)
Thanks again Sparky! Once again the exact information I needed AND a great explanation of the First Disconnect. Really appreciate your content!
Great to hear, thanks!
Great to hear, thanks!
I have a siemens main panel and meter box side by side. The main disconnect panel has a grounding jumper and no bonding screw. I am about to add a generator and the generator transfer switch will now become my main disconnect and I need to "unbond" in the main panel, but there is no bonding screw to remove. How do I do this? Thanks.
My panel inside the neutral and ground are bonded together and now I have to replace my 200a disconnect at the pole right under meter and I need to know if I bond it together to.
What about solar fuse disconnect that is connected by tapping the line side at the main electrical panel. Does that mean that both the main panel and the fuse disconnect need to bond the neutral to ground. Thank you
So if you install an emergency disconnect(fireman disco)rated at 200A near the meter and your main breaker panel inside a garage also has its own 200A breaker, do you still bond neutral and ground at emergency disconnect box even though it’s not service disconnect but rather emergency only?
As an apprentice I asked that question my foreman and his answer was that it needs to be bonded at your main service panel not your emergency disco? A bit confusing to me. Thanks for your video.
What about an outdoor transfer switch to the generator, the meter, and the main panel? With a big blade type switch? Where does the bonding go?
Well done Sparky. Good demonstration.
Thanks Gary!
Thanks for the video; I have been wanting to see this information.
Excellent. Glad to help!
So if I'm understanding correctly, a panel like square d SC816F200PS main service panel that comes with built in main bonding jumper does not need a green bonding screw even when a residence has a sub panel connected to it? Hence why square d doesn't supply one in this panel
And as ALWAYS, this video was also helpful, Thanks Bill 👍
Thanks so much Chris!
Very helpful!!! The way they wired my Siemens, I’m out of lugs on the two bus bars where they put most of the neutral wires. Trying to determine if I could use the bus bars on the outer sides of the panel - where most of the ground wires are returning from the house - for the three neutral wires I want to add with new breakers.
Maybe another way to ask it… can you explain the four bus bars? Two on the innner vs. two on the outer ?
ITE, now Siemens has always been my go-to equipment. I have used others when a bid was important or my access to Siemens was not available. Good video. I agree, finer threads means better contact.
HI Don! Yes, and the finer threads allow a higher torque spec. Siemens won this contest IMO.
@@SparkyChannel 👍
Really appreciate your videos. Thank you! What if the installer leaves the partially set bonding screw in the sub-panel. Should this be removed?
YES!! Neutrals and grounds are separated in a subpanel. The (green) bonding screw has no place in a subpanel. That is to prevent someone accidentally screwing it all the way in under the belief that it's loose.
Thank you, great advice.
Glad it was helpful!
Never knew Scotty Kilmer was an electrician too!
LOL!
haha ,similar voice, but not annoying, and less clickbait
Nice video, Bill!
Thanks Tim!
Excellent video thanks 👍
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you so much, sir.
You are most welcome!
Great video. First means of disconnect
Yes, thanks!
If it's a subpanel, do you leave the screw in place untightened, or is it better to remove it? (Siemens SN panel in my case.)
Best practice to remove it. That way, no one can accidentally tighten it down later.
@@SparkyChannel Thanks, will do!
Wonderful video
Thanks!
Great vid
Thanks Dave!
So i have a meter with disconnect and a breaker panel with a main breaker. Would i still not have a neutral bonding screw in main panel than? just want to make sure, Thanks
Sparky channel will you clarify?
Working on a 6000a 480v MCC(motor control center) where equipment is all grounded inside panel and bonded to steel of building. The panels that come from that MCC for the lighting, the equipment and the 208/120v receptical panel should not be grounded?
Hi Whitty! The panels would all be grounded but only the panel of 1st disconnect would have the neutral bonded to the EGC. Subsequent panels would need to keep the grounds and neutrals separate.
The green screw is a system bonding jumper, which means it connects the neutral to the equipment grounding conductor (EGC aka ground). The EGC is still available in the video's panel when the green screw is not connected. In your case, because the 480v gets transformed to 208/120v, you have a separately derived system possibly with the system bonding jumper at the transformer. If you open the system disconnect and don't see the bonding jumper, that's where it likely is.
@@RJ-ej1nr Thanks!
The two 100 amp Homeline load centers I bought from Home Depot had the bonding screw on a piece of white cardboard inside the boxes.
Interesting. I searched all over for one in my box and didn't find one. I'll look for a piece of white cardboard. :)
My homeline also came with the green screw, but the damn thing does not start. Almost like it is too short. All my neutrals and grounds share the same bar and looks connected to the service neutral. My goal is to bond to the case because I am using emt. I suppose I’ll just make a bonding wire from the case(box enclosure) to the neutral bar. Does this sound correct? This will be the only panel in a steel building.
Never mind I found a piece of unistrut was stopping the screw from starting. It is installed and tight now.
My 100 amp Homeline came the same way. A small plastic bag with yellow covers for the hots, and a small, square, piece of cardboard with the bonding screw.
What if the main disconnect is at the meter box, do you still bond the neutral and the ground?
See my discussion starting at 2:51
Excellent video!
Nagging thought here... a ways back I was taught your ground return path should be done with connected wires and not enclosures. The enclosure is connected to the EGC, but you don't land an incoming EGC to the enclosure for return, you connect it to a bus or connection that has a wire connection to the return EGC.
That has me wondering about the neutral return ground path through the ground screw into the enclosure over to wherever the GEC is. Clearly it's determined to be good enough that all manufacturers have it signed off on, but are there times you'd connect a neutral bar to ground via a direct wire method? I've used the neutral bonding screw, but I haven't have felt clean about it when it's via the enclosure.
You mean that in some cases you would like to insure the neutral bonding by a redundant method as well, such as a direct wire?
@@SparkyChannel Redundant paths bring other concerns, so not trying to get into that. It's what reasons would there be to neutral bond via a wire instead of the provided screw. I've seen old rusted up outdoor panels don't look trustworthy for a ground path.
@@RJ-ej1nr I see. I think you have to stay with the manufacturers design and use the correct neutral bonding screw. Perhaps the green finish on the screw will help protect it. :)
@@SparkyChannel Let's see - 110.3(B) says "in accordance with any instructions". SqD says, "If required by local code, install the green neutral bonding screw...", i.e. talk to your inspector, not us. Inspector will say, "I don't care it's just repairs, I'm not signing off on that piece of rusty..." So guess we are back on the screw being fine. :))
@@RJ-ej1nr LOL, sounds about right.
Why neutral and ground bond?
What would you do if your sub panel also has a main breaker?
Excellent question. You bond in the panel of first disconnect. You keep the grounds and neutrals separate in all panels after that, whether they have a main disconnect or not. It might be convenient to have a 2nd disconnect, but you still have to keep the ground and neutrals separate except in the panel of first disconnect.
Just to be sure, Main Bonding Jumper is totally different than a green grounding screw in a sub panel.
Correct?
A neutral bonding screw is a type of main bonding jumper. Never use one in a sub panel as the grounds and neutrals must be separate in a sub panel.
Homeline comes with the screw through a piece of cardboard. It's normally in the same bag as your paperwork and cover screws.
Thanks!
Please answer my question! Ive spent alot of money and I need answers. Im trying to install a 50amp inlet box in the garage 3ft under my main panel that houses all my breakers. In the is panel his has a main breaker punchout on the siemens panel but no main breaker. My main shutoff is below the meter outside the garage. I plan on having an electrician install a 200amp main panel breaker in my panel. I have a neutral floating bluetti solar generator so both the neutral and ground has to be mounted on the same bus bar. Neutrals and grounds must be bonded and something about first means of disconnect. Well heck Im finding out first means of disconnect really means below the meter. So how do i sit all this up now to work? Done bought all the breakers, wiring, interlock switch. I have an electrician who after long explanation of what I want to do says he understands but then I found this out that my first means of disconnect is in below the meter even if i add a main breaker in my breaker box. So how do i keep this same setup in my garage? Does the electrician have to add something at the meter box for this to work and rearrange my panel in the garage. Im so confused.
Buy a transfer switch and install it next to the load center. Sounds like your "electrician" is just a handyman if he doesn't know that. It's not like you're going to be able to back up all of your house anyway with a 50a generator
@YaksAttack I figured out answers to all my questions. You can definitely run your entire house off a 50amp generator. What are you talking about? Transfer switch: You can only choose a few circuits, and you must choose wisely. Interlock switch you can use any circuit or breaker you want whenever.
Always keep the neutrals and grounds on their own bus bars as well. Even at the first point of disconnect they should be on the correct bar as the bonding screw is not rated to carry return current.
In the video there are two green grounding conductors from the first disconnect to the second panel. Why are they necessary when there is already the main grounding (white taped) conductor between the panels?
Neutral (grounded conductor) is the return path of the current, and the green ground wire holds the fault current to trip the breaker in protecting the person and the facility. They must stay separate after the first panel of disconnect.
Any thoughts on the Leviton Load Centers Thanks
My thoughts are that they look to be of excellent quality, but they aren't time tested like other brands.
its included
That panel would be a indoor rated/ disconnect...many disconnects are outdoor rated...so fireman have access outside of a structure
Correct.
@SparkyChannel disconnect can be outside or inside as long as service conductor penetrate the house and end up in the first panel and not more than 5 feet
Thanksss
No problem!
Main Bonding Jumper
Yep.
So what about the GIANT bar connected between ground and neutral? Wtf is the point of the screw?
Just installed the guts of a Siemens yesterday after the old busbar melted in two.
Wow!
Hi Bill
Hi!
@@SparkyChannel how are you
@@jeremynguyen2346 Good, thanks!
@@SparkyChannel do you like dogs
@@SparkyChannel hello bill
Do you have any knowledge about breakers compatibility? Since is too hard to find some breakers I wonder if we can mix brands.
No, you can't mix brands unless it's specifically called out by a manufacturer. The acceptable breakers will be listed somewhere on the panel or inside the front cover.
@@SparkyChannel Siemens Classified type breakers are the only that I know of that are compatible and tested.
@@illestofdemall13 True.
1 panel of disconnect first panel of disconnect 1st panel of disconnect. what is the FIRST panel of disconnect. I'll just google it. LOL
It's the 1st panel... Lol. But to answer your question if there was another SUB PANEL (a circuit coming off that panel that was feeding another breaker like a garage or shop panel) then the main/1st would use that grounding screw and the second sub panel would not. you want the neutrals to have a least path back to the main panel and ground there not in the sub panel and just loop around and around.
@@tollav what if you do not have a torque screwdriver? Thank you
So you don't ground the sub panel(s)? I'm looking to upgrade the house's breaker box but am having a hard time comparing the different types. The Siemans looks the weirdest.
They want at least 2 threads in contact with the metal of the panel, 4 sq ext. I figured that they’d all be 10/32.
Thanks!