Great video. One way I try to explain illusions in P2 is that they are more like enchantments than illusions. They're more in your head than they are on the field. Your brain is what's being affected by the magic, not your surroundings. Approach it from that mindset and the mechanics become much more intuitive.
This is the big thing a lot of people get caught up on and confused about. The general pop culture idea of "illusion" is synonymous with "hologram", but in P2e it is instead much more similar to enchantment-style magic as you say, creating full-spectrum false stimuli that you then have to overcome within your own mind, even if you know it's fake.
One way I used illusory object before was to fake the power level of my sorcerer. Making a wall of flame and all, but also spells that don't really exists. Like just holding a massive fireball overhead to threaten a group of bandits and get them to surrender, stuff like that. (that's why good charisma and deception are useful on an illusion focused character :D)
New to pf and can I just say you’re my favorite content creator by far. I stumbled across your class tier list (chef kiss btw) and just your approach and education first approach is a breath of fresh air! Tysm
I definitely appreciated this. It gave me some clarity regarding the difference between knowing something is an illusion, via recognizing the spell, for example, and disbelieving the illusion.
This was a great video, thanks! I think using a less punishing interpretation for disbelief on Illusory Object is reasonable, if it were properly codified. Illusory Object is perfect for deceiving, dividing, and distracting enemies, but it becomes a problem when it denies groups of enemies their actions. A 20-foot burst can affect many creatures and a perception check versus spell DC is a significant test at all levels. By putting several enemies inside an illusory box, you tax them each a minimum of an action just to engage you, all for the cost of 2 actions and a 1st rank slot. This includes bosses! If the DM uses tactics like shoving to reduce the tax, the party can skirt around disbelief with area damage and things can become a bit degenerate. I don't think the answer is auto-successes nor making checks every time someone witnesses an oddity. I do think that creatures should be able to help their allies if it would make sense to, though. A DM could consider something like a circumstance bonus to the disbelief check equal to the number of allies that already disbelieve the illusion. That would simulate creatures communicating or rationalizing their friends walking through walls! Plus, the caster's team would start off with a +1 which is a nice expression of their coordination. Something working against Phantom Prison is not just the comparison to Illusory Object but the ease of escape. Its Incapacitation trait makes it less reliable than Slow against PL+2 enemies for action denial and using it on one low level foe feels bad for the cost.
This is great, diving into the details of a specific rules area is a great idea for videos and I hope you do more. In the case of falling through an illusory bridge, would you give the victim the opportunity to Grab an Edge? Would you apply a circumstance penalty due to the presence of the illusion? Would they get their disbelief check before they actually fall?
I think in that circumstance I would allow Grab an Edge, but with a circumstance penalty-probably -2-as it's such a surprise to them that it's harder to react. And it's a 50/50 on if I'd be generous enough to give a Disbelieve check as part of a (specifically *successful*) Grab, something about your instincts being able to penetrate the illusion and grab the ledge due to gravity already carrying you partway through, the sheer cognitive dissonance attempting to break something mentally.
Wizards do at level 6 get to chose between all terrible feats - and Convincing Illusion: Prerequisites expert in Deception Trigger A creature succeeded, but didn’t critically succeed, at a Perception check or Will save to disbelieve an illusion from a spell that you cast Requirements You are within 30 feet of the observer and the illusion You use your deceptive skills to make your illusions seem even more real. Attempt a Deception check against the target’s Perception DC. If you succeed, the target fails to disbelieve the illusion. It's weird for a wizard to be an expert in deception - or to put points in to Charisma. Speaking of attributes: AFAIK only Goblin and Gnome have flaw in Strength, which seemingly is the only attribute a wizard doesn't need (unless they want to wear light armour and not get penalties, that is)
Clarifying about the Illusions in general, what's exactly stopping one physically moving through illusion per RAW? In Illusory Objects case, the spell reads more like an hologram and it distinctly lacks the mental trait. Touching or striding should prove that while wall is opaque, it is not solid and can be moved through? I'm also raising the point because Phantom Prison explicitly says in the description that it traps the target in the illusory prison with no escape.
What's stopping creatures from moving through illusions such as Illusory Object is that they perceive an object in front of them. As per the rules on illusions (p301 player core), "[a creature] still can’t ignore the illusion without successfully disbelieving it" - so it couldn't willingly Stride through until then. If it helps to reconcile this rule, the Illusion trait (which these spells have) alludes to tricking the senses, rather than the mind. As in the video, imagine that the goblin Interacts with a brick wall, created by a heightened Illusory Object, in an attempt to disbelieve it. The goblin doesn't just feel the rough brickwork on its fingertips, but when it pushes on the wall, it feels resistance in its arms. Disbelieving the illusion would be knowing without any doubt that these stimuli are false and harmless.
Ravenous has it almost perfect here, with just one small correction. Disbelieving isn't about "knowing it's false" beyond any doubt, that can be done with something as simple as someone telling you it's an illusion (or being the one to cast the spell yourself!). Disbelieving is mentally quashing the magic's effect on you so that you drastically lessen (or entirely remove) the false sensory input. Conquering the illusion such that you no longer feel that pushback on your arms, your shoulder bashing into the wall, or your foot kicking solid stone. All that remains is a vague, misty silhouette- the origin point of the illusion's false stimuli.
Maybe the wall provides illusionary pushback, but if I know it’s fake I’ll just jump through in such a way I’ll be unable to stop myself once I start. Then it doesn't matter what I feel, my body is traveling through regardless of my feelings on the subject, I certainly can’t stop it.
@@iamravenous_your not ignoring the illusion though, it’s fully blocking your vision Keep in mind the effect of illusory object is more potent then a tier 2 darkness or mist which both cost 3 actions instead of io’s 2
I hope this doesnt come off as too demanding or anything but I would love to hear your thoughts on the Commander playtest because I would love to see your giant brain come up with ways it could be played so I can leech off of your greatness.
About level 2 upcast Illusory Object's "feels right to the touch". I'd say that would take effect if they touch the object (even with gloves), but if they choose to attack the object (destroy the bars they see), it seems natural to me that the weapon goes right through. Which likely will make them ponder and try to disbelieve the illusion. At least two actions wasted for at least 1 goblin, and the other goblins needs to spend at least one action disbelieving the illusion - or get tossed through :) Wait, wouldn't the goblin that pushed the other goblin have to do an athletic check and beat their fortitude?
This is a reasonable way to rule it for sure. I extend "feeling right" to mean anything connected to the creature, personally- since the purpose of illusions is to generate false sensory input, I think it should be exuding that same stopping force feeling onto *anything* that passes through it, but a midair arrow doesn't have a mind to feel the wall and the impact it has on it, whereas the goblin swinging does.
@@lexchxn So the strike with the weapon fails because the orc wielding the weapon is tricked... Meanwhile, the goblin that managed to disbelieve the illusion may toss any weapon or comrade through the illusion... And the goblin being tossed/pushed may not disbelieve the illusion but that does not matter because they're not the one doing the pushing. Ok, that's fair.
That's a take on illusions I never really considered, so I wonder to what extent an illusion should be considered real. If one would fall through the bridge, then I guess the wall only blocks willing movement, but wouldn't running full speed at it be considered an attempt at disbelieving, not interrupting movement on a success. What I mean is that the forces preventing a creature to pass through are primal instincts that hitting your head against a wall is not a good strategy, thus making you stop running before hitting it, but the wall cannot exert an opposed force on contact, even with a heightened illusory object. I also wonder about more tangible effects. Would a heightened illusory wall of fire deal minor fire or mental damage to creatures that do not disbelieve it? Would a 1st rank illusory river prevent a strigoi from crossing? This is all an arbitrary choice to be made around a table, but I wonder where you put the limit of what manipulating one's senses can do physically.
Well, the important distinction on your first point is that illusions *do* exert sensory input, just not physical results, and so can appear to act physically when observed through a creature's frame of reference. When you attempt to run through an illusory wall that you haven't yet disbelieved, the illusion generates the sensory input of running into a wall, causing you to hit it and stop your movement even though it wouldn't stop a thrown weapon. From there, a 1st rank object would give you a disbelieve check as part of the impact, since the hit didn't feel right, but a 2nd rank would not. That's the big difference between knowing something's an illusion and actually disbelieving it, disbelieving it stops it from manipulating your senses. As for tangible effects, it's really going to depend on the table and the context. I adore the Strigoi example and probably wouldn't allow the wall of fire one, but I think it's beautiful that illusions can work in all these ways depending on the GM. Illusions make me feel like a kid playing ttrpgs again, really; everything is possible.
Now if you were to shoot at an illusion (or to someone taking cover behind an illusion) your projectile or spell should go through anyway right ? Would that be enough to automatically know it's an illusion and then get to use an action to disbelieve? (unless the spellcaster designed it to allow for that, like a stone whole with arrow slits in it for their allies to shoot out of.)
Yes, the arrow would fly through, and I would likely allow a check to disbelieve off of that as long as the firer could be in a position to observe their arrow pass through the wall. It's likely that an intelligent creature could work out that it's an illusion from that and begin to make intentioned disbelieve checks as well.
There seem to be a lot of debate on reddit about illusions right now lol A lot of people seem to lean toward being able to go through illusions without disbelieving if you know it's one. A lot of pushback against the idea that you have to disbelieve to be able to get through normally (aka without being pushed etc)
I think either way is a very fair way to rule it, that'll just depend on your table. I go with the no-walk-through side, as mentioned in passing in the video, specifically because Illusions are more than just a hologram; they create full-spectrum false sensory stimuli unless specified otherwise, and even when that stimuli is easily recognised as fake (as per touching a 1st rank Illusory Object) it doesn't mean you can just ignore it, not without overcoming that part of your mind (which is what Disbelieve checks are for). I think if anything, illusions are a great example of why it would be great to have a trait in the vein of Auditory/Olfactory like "Touchable". That would remove all ambiguity around illusions, rather than leaving it implied in the effect text.
Illusory object doesn't have the mental trait, so it's actually extra effective against mindless foes due to their generally lower perception modifiers. How they go about disbelieving the illusion will vary by GM, but as long as the illusion is something that will help with the situation, it'll do great.
Depends on the rank of the Illusory Object. At rank 1, they would use the Climb action and immediately be able to tell the wall isn't real and make a disbelieve check as part of the action due to it feeling wrong. At rank 2 or above, they would use the Climb action and if they succeed their Climb check they would notice that despite having solid holds they could make no progress, likely giving a disbelieve check to intelligent creatures or causing less-intelligent creatures to give up on that course of action. Failing the Climb check would have their holds simply not be good enough, and they wouldn't yet know it was an illusion (though I would likely roll a hidden perception check to *notice* that it was, without disbelieving)
You can absolutely move trough Illusions without disbeliving them unless the illusion says otherwise. You can't pass through phantom prison because it says you cannot but a box made from Illusory Object can be strided past even when upcasted. If a creature couldn't normaly pass through Illusions without disbeliving there would be no point in phantom prison as Illusory Object would completly invalidate it.
![[lexchxn]](http://yt3.ggpht.com/u7ZWGeod_vPXqa2B_NOEd9zHXcgnu55rSil2GGMieC9qp_W8YNaTwgYmkPBsizs_55pq1-tVkw=s48-c-k-c0x00ffffff-no-rj)
Great video. One way I try to explain illusions in P2 is that they are more like enchantments than illusions. They're more in your head than they are on the field. Your brain is what's being affected by the magic, not your surroundings. Approach it from that mindset and the mechanics become much more intuitive.
This is the big thing a lot of people get caught up on and confused about. The general pop culture idea of "illusion" is synonymous with "hologram", but in P2e it is instead much more similar to enchantment-style magic as you say, creating full-spectrum false stimuli that you then have to overcome within your own mind, even if you know it's fake.
One way I used illusory object before was to fake the power level of my sorcerer. Making a wall of flame and all, but also spells that don't really exists. Like just holding a massive fireball overhead to threaten a group of bandits and get them to surrender, stuff like that. (that's why good charisma and deception are useful on an illusion focused character :D)
This is also an *amazing* part of being an illusionist! It just wasn't relevant to the rules rundown, but thank you for sharing!
@@lexchxn Mhm!
New to pf and can I just say you’re my favorite content creator by far. I stumbled across your class tier list (chef kiss btw) and just your approach and education first approach is a breath of fresh air! Tysm
That's very kind feedback
I definitely appreciated this. It gave me some clarity regarding the difference between knowing something is an illusion, via recognizing the spell, for example, and disbelieving the illusion.
Fantastic explanation of how illusions work. Clear, concise, and exhaustive. I will be sending anyone who needs to understand this your way.
This was a great video, thanks!
I think using a less punishing interpretation for disbelief on Illusory Object is reasonable, if it were properly codified. Illusory Object is perfect for deceiving, dividing, and distracting enemies, but it becomes a problem when it denies groups of enemies their actions. A 20-foot burst can affect many creatures and a perception check versus spell DC is a significant test at all levels. By putting several enemies inside an illusory box, you tax them each a minimum of an action just to engage you, all for the cost of 2 actions and a 1st rank slot. This includes bosses! If the DM uses tactics like shoving to reduce the tax, the party can skirt around disbelief with area damage and things can become a bit degenerate.
I don't think the answer is auto-successes nor making checks every time someone witnesses an oddity. I do think that creatures should be able to help their allies if it would make sense to, though. A DM could consider something like a circumstance bonus to the disbelief check equal to the number of allies that already disbelieve the illusion. That would simulate creatures communicating or rationalizing their friends walking through walls! Plus, the caster's team would start off with a +1 which is a nice expression of their coordination.
Something working against Phantom Prison is not just the comparison to Illusory Object but the ease of escape. Its Incapacitation trait makes it less reliable than Slow against PL+2 enemies for action denial and using it on one low level foe feels bad for the cost.
This is great stuff. Keep it up!
This is great, diving into the details of a specific rules area is a great idea for videos and I hope you do more. In the case of falling through an illusory bridge, would you give the victim the opportunity to Grab an Edge? Would you apply a circumstance penalty due to the presence of the illusion? Would they get their disbelief check before they actually fall?
I think in that circumstance I would allow Grab an Edge, but with a circumstance penalty-probably -2-as it's such a surprise to them that it's harder to react. And it's a 50/50 on if I'd be generous enough to give a Disbelieve check as part of a (specifically *successful*) Grab, something about your instincts being able to penetrate the illusion and grab the ledge due to gravity already carrying you partway through, the sheer cognitive dissonance attempting to break something mentally.
@@lexchxn kind of fucked up like as if they may try to grasp for the bridge itself, which isnt real
Didn't expect to hear rainworld ost here, great choice by the way.
Wizards do at level 6 get to chose between all terrible feats - and Convincing Illusion:
Prerequisites expert in Deception
Trigger A creature succeeded, but didn’t critically succeed, at a Perception check or Will save to disbelieve an illusion from a spell that you cast
Requirements You are within 30 feet of the observer and the illusion
You use your deceptive skills to make your illusions seem even more real. Attempt a Deception check against the target’s Perception DC. If you succeed, the target fails to disbelieve the illusion.
It's weird for a wizard to be an expert in deception - or to put points in to Charisma.
Speaking of attributes: AFAIK only Goblin and Gnome have flaw in Strength, which seemingly is the only attribute a wizard doesn't need (unless they want to wear light armour and not get penalties, that is)
A lovely map!
You teach me so many things I wasn't even aware I didn't know 😩
Clarifying about the Illusions in general, what's exactly stopping one physically moving through illusion per RAW? In Illusory Objects case, the spell reads more like an hologram and it distinctly lacks the mental trait. Touching or striding should prove that while wall is opaque, it is not solid and can be moved through? I'm also raising the point because Phantom Prison explicitly says in the description that it traps the target in the illusory prison with no escape.
What's stopping creatures from moving through illusions such as Illusory Object is that they perceive an object in front of them. As per the rules on illusions (p301 player core), "[a creature] still can’t ignore the illusion without successfully disbelieving it" - so it couldn't willingly Stride through until then.
If it helps to reconcile this rule, the Illusion trait (which these spells have) alludes to tricking the senses, rather than the mind. As in the video, imagine that the goblin Interacts with a brick wall, created by a heightened Illusory Object, in an attempt to disbelieve it. The goblin doesn't just feel the rough brickwork on its fingertips, but when it pushes on the wall, it feels resistance in its arms. Disbelieving the illusion would be knowing without any doubt that these stimuli are false and harmless.
Ravenous has it almost perfect here, with just one small correction. Disbelieving isn't about "knowing it's false" beyond any doubt, that can be done with something as simple as someone telling you it's an illusion (or being the one to cast the spell yourself!).
Disbelieving is mentally quashing the magic's effect on you so that you drastically lessen (or entirely remove) the false sensory input. Conquering the illusion such that you no longer feel that pushback on your arms, your shoulder bashing into the wall, or your foot kicking solid stone. All that remains is a vague, misty silhouette- the origin point of the illusion's false stimuli.
Maybe the wall provides illusionary pushback, but if I know it’s fake I’ll just jump through in such a way I’ll be unable to stop myself once I start. Then it doesn't matter what I feel, my body is traveling through regardless of my feelings on the subject, I certainly can’t stop it.
@@BOBBOB-bo2pj This would be ignoring the illusion before disbelieving it, which your character can not do
@@iamravenous_your not ignoring the illusion though, it’s fully blocking your vision
Keep in mind the effect of illusory object is more potent then a tier 2 darkness or mist which both cost 3 actions instead of io’s 2
I hope this doesnt come off as too demanding or anything but I would love to hear your thoughts on the Commander playtest because I would love to see your giant brain come up with ways it could be played so I can leech off of your greatness.
I like how you play illusions. I wish the rules were as clear as you say.
About level 2 upcast Illusory Object's "feels right to the touch".
I'd say that would take effect if they touch the object (even with gloves), but if they choose to attack the object (destroy the bars they see), it seems natural to me that the weapon goes right through.
Which likely will make them ponder and try to disbelieve the illusion. At least two actions wasted for at least 1 goblin, and the other goblins needs to spend at least one action disbelieving the illusion - or get tossed through :)
Wait, wouldn't the goblin that pushed the other goblin have to do an athletic check and beat their fortitude?
I rant on! I guess my objection was that "feels right to the touch" does not hinder a weapon attack, just as one goblin could shove the other through.
This is a reasonable way to rule it for sure. I extend "feeling right" to mean anything connected to the creature, personally- since the purpose of illusions is to generate false sensory input, I think it should be exuding that same stopping force feeling onto *anything* that passes through it, but a midair arrow doesn't have a mind to feel the wall and the impact it has on it, whereas the goblin swinging does.
@@lexchxn So the strike with the weapon fails because the orc wielding the weapon is tricked...
Meanwhile, the goblin that managed to disbelieve the illusion may toss any weapon or comrade through the illusion... And the goblin being tossed/pushed may not disbelieve the illusion but that does not matter because they're not the one doing the pushing.
Ok, that's fair.
That's a take on illusions I never really considered, so I wonder to what extent an illusion should be considered real. If one would fall through the bridge, then I guess the wall only blocks willing movement, but wouldn't running full speed at it be considered an attempt at disbelieving, not interrupting movement on a success. What I mean is that the forces preventing a creature to pass through are primal instincts that hitting your head against a wall is not a good strategy, thus making you stop running before hitting it, but the wall cannot exert an opposed force on contact, even with a heightened illusory object.
I also wonder about more tangible effects. Would a heightened illusory wall of fire deal minor fire or mental damage to creatures that do not disbelieve it? Would a 1st rank illusory river prevent a strigoi from crossing? This is all an arbitrary choice to be made around a table, but I wonder where you put the limit of what manipulating one's senses can do physically.
Well, the important distinction on your first point is that illusions *do* exert sensory input, just not physical results, and so can appear to act physically when observed through a creature's frame of reference. When you attempt to run through an illusory wall that you haven't yet disbelieved, the illusion generates the sensory input of running into a wall, causing you to hit it and stop your movement even though it wouldn't stop a thrown weapon. From there, a 1st rank object would give you a disbelieve check as part of the impact, since the hit didn't feel right, but a 2nd rank would not.
That's the big difference between knowing something's an illusion and actually disbelieving it, disbelieving it stops it from manipulating your senses.
As for tangible effects, it's really going to depend on the table and the context. I adore the Strigoi example and probably wouldn't allow the wall of fire one, but I think it's beautiful that illusions can work in all these ways depending on the GM. Illusions make me feel like a kid playing ttrpgs again, really; everything is possible.
@@lexchxn oooh I see. Thanks for helping me make sense of it!
Now if you were to shoot at an illusion (or to someone taking cover behind an illusion) your projectile or spell should go through anyway right ? Would that be enough to automatically know it's an illusion and then get to use an action to disbelieve? (unless the spellcaster designed it to allow for that, like a stone whole with arrow slits in it for their allies to shoot out of.)
Yes, the arrow would fly through, and I would likely allow a check to disbelieve off of that as long as the firer could be in a position to observe their arrow pass through the wall. It's likely that an intelligent creature could work out that it's an illusion from that and begin to make intentioned disbelieve checks as well.
There seem to be a lot of debate on reddit about illusions right now lol
A lot of people seem to lean toward being able to go through illusions without disbelieving if you know it's one. A lot of pushback against the idea that you have to disbelieve to be able to get through normally (aka without being pushed etc)
I think either way is a very fair way to rule it, that'll just depend on your table.
I go with the no-walk-through side, as mentioned in passing in the video, specifically because Illusions are more than just a hologram; they create full-spectrum false sensory stimuli unless specified otherwise, and even when that stimuli is easily recognised as fake (as per touching a 1st rank Illusory Object) it doesn't mean you can just ignore it, not without overcoming that part of your mind (which is what Disbelieve checks are for).
I think if anything, illusions are a great example of why it would be great to have a trait in the vein of Auditory/Olfactory like "Touchable". That would remove all ambiguity around illusions, rather than leaving it implied in the effect text.
@@lexchxn A rule clarification would sure be nice. A single line would be enough
what module do you have that shows the distance to other tokens when you drag it?
Tactical Grid! One of my favourite modules.
Does it work if I box in mindless enemies? Would they still treat an illusion ring of fire as existing or just walk through it?
Illusory object doesn't have the mental trait, so it's actually extra effective against mindless foes due to their generally lower perception modifiers. How they go about disbelieving the illusion will vary by GM, but as long as the illusion is something that will help with the situation, it'll do great.
I mean, for example, what happens if someone tries to climb an illusory wall?
Depends on the rank of the Illusory Object.
At rank 1, they would use the Climb action and immediately be able to tell the wall isn't real and make a disbelieve check as part of the action due to it feeling wrong.
At rank 2 or above, they would use the Climb action and if they succeed their Climb check they would notice that despite having solid holds they could make no progress, likely giving a disbelieve check to intelligent creatures or causing less-intelligent creatures to give up on that course of action. Failing the Climb check would have their holds simply not be good enough, and they wouldn't yet know it was an illusion (though I would likely roll a hidden perception check to *notice* that it was, without disbelieving)
You can absolutely move trough Illusions without disbeliving them unless the illusion says otherwise.
You can't pass through phantom prison because it says you cannot but a box made from Illusory Object can be strided past even when upcasted.
If a creature couldn't normaly pass through Illusions without disbeliving there would be no point in phantom prison as Illusory Object would completly invalidate it.