@ThirteenFourteen Because the asian red poppy grows quite well in the highlands? No its because its rainy and depressing all the time. No offense. I'd trade you citizenship in a heartbeat. And not to nitpick but herion? Heroine? You know what drug I want to do? Heron. Straight bird dope. This strain is called Great Egret, what do ya think? Is it better than Tidewalker?
@Jotaro97 There was. During the Early Modern Period, bathing (or at least public bathing) was in decline due to the possibility of spreading Black Death, among other things.
What if julius caesar wasn't assassinated? What if alaska and siberia remained connected? What if the eastern roman empire fell together with the western one? What if the western roman empire survived instead of the eastern?
given how the song dynasty changed stuff often like adding paper money I can see the debate between the industrialization being close all it takes is the emperor around at the time deciding to pursue this like how Emperor Yongle alone allowed Zheng He to do all his exploring despite court bureaucracy
"The Chinese didn't want an industrial revolution, for fear of giving the merchant class too much power." I mean, judging from what happened in our timeline, can you really say they were wrong about that?
@@thebandofbastards4934 I'd argue it was more like the two groups took on a sort of dual-leadership role until we realized we really didn't need actual nobility before leaving tycoons as the last ones standing.
@@CannibaLouiST I find it pretty amusing how the turnaround happened. Plague ravages Europe. Nobles have all the technical power and no money. Merchants have all the money and none of the authority and say, "Hey, maybe we can help each other."
@@safehavenonice6431 If Costantinople never fell to the Turks, Europeans probably would have less incentives to explore (or to get Indian goods themselves). Maybe would have occurred a bit later. I still haven't finished reading The Years of Rice And Salt. Very nice alternate history novel, and it's a long one
Tunisians colonising Italy, Sicily, Sardinia, and Corsica, establishing a mercantile empire in the Central Mediterranean.... Wait, this is Carthage, isn't it?
It seems the basis of argument that the Islamic world became stagnant and opposed to scientific advancement in the 13th century is asserted without acknowledging that this was marked by the destruction of the Baghdad House of Wisdom and the subsequent destruction of Baghdad by the mongols. This doesn’t seem likely if we go by the overall thesis of the scenario cuz the mongols would’ve had a lot more alternatives than the Mid East to expand to and the Muslim world would’ve had more expansion to pull resources and manpower from in order to defend its borders here. A similar argument of disconnection from the conditions of OTL revolving the massive conservative reaction of the Chinese leadership is similarly not likely to occur in this TL due to the pressures of external forces not giving the perception that China was “loosing its way” as seen by their leadership of the time.
Guy, you said a great nonsense. Bagdad was destroyed be4 the plague. Science was already falling be4 the destructio of the house of wisdom. Africa and India werent affected by the mongols, they could had followed the science. So no, was an entire civilisational turn. Ruyard said that everyone invaded by mogls turned consevative. The damage was alreay done in this scenario, so, China would be consevative. In fact the song already banned their own industrial age be4 be conquered by the mongols.
@@adamnesico India wasn’t effected by the mongols 🤨; I guess the whole Mogul and other hordes turned empires just magically disappeared? You, guy, just said a great bunch of ahistorical nonsense.
@@dont-rump901 Donkey brain, the gurkhanis invaded India centuries later in a more civiliced way, they were something diferent. You were the one who made a phallacy of reduction to the absurd. You are the one talking nonsense.
I think a good way to think of history is in terms of breakthroughs. In general, everything is in placid stagnation for ages or even eons, and then a convergence of important events happens that completely changes everything in like 5 minutes. In modern society that's the creation of a new technology. In ancient society it was the creation of a new system that was socially or martially dominant. In the history of mankind, it's the creation of civilization itself. Prior to that we were glorified wolves, and that period still encompasses 95% of all human existence. It's very difficult if not impossible to know where the next breakthrough will be. So, an alt timeline like this that snuffs out the breakthrough of European colonization is setting up the ground for another breakthrough to happen by chance. Something LIKE Renaissance Europe will emerge, but probably not for millennia; possibly not for tens of millennia. Not until there's a major change in geopolitics, society and even religion that catalyzes it.
@@WhatifAltHist not a wise move to post it now am gonna spam you with these scenarios if you don't do them : 1st what if the USSR was forced to join the axis instead of the allies & what if they won & a cold war between Nazi Germany & USSR starts how's it gonna be. 2nd what if the 1st communist revolution happened in the US instead of Russia 3rd what if the Scandinavians were all united in the start of the viking age and started a conquest in Europe similar to the mongols & Arabs (refer to the British isles as Britgard or Britainheim in this timeline) 4th what if in the 2 times that Suleiman the magnificent besieged Vienna he took it 5th what if Ireland was the one to unite the British isles & not England & Scotland
@@WhatifAltHist What if the USSR and the USA started WWIII in 1962? Who would win ( in no or very few nukes scenario )? I`ve researched this topic and relised that both superstates had equal power.
This was an enjoyable video, but this was definitely one of your weaker ones. You've made a few false analysis here, while it is true that the Islamic Golden Age was plagued by conservatism, it is worth noting that the major reason that the Islamic Golden Age ended was the destruction of most of the middle East and the destabilisation subsequently of the region by the Mongols. The Muslims made innovations in spite of converatism and literal civil war during the Golden Age, without as big a mongol threat, steam power was already becoming a concept. Check out the Musa brothers who invented self-playing lutes using steam and water power, or people like Ibn Firnas who had began the concept of aviation and flight 700 years before Davinci. I do get your argument, but the major reason European civilisation advanced was because of a consistent presence of warring states with limited land, you yourself pointed out that the initial migrant states would eventually break off. It is highly plausible that these states would also face a similar peril from Mongol migration and the imminent Ottoman Empire near them, and feel the need for technological advancement. The face-offs between these countries would set the stage for warring much like what Europe faced. With the eventual population of Britain too. Also, most of the Islamic kingdoms weren't governed by single authority, you do define the Islamic Empires as "Islam" but the clergy in Arabia had little say over the people of Andalus, Turkey, Central Asia or India. The threat of conservatism in one region doesn't influence all the others. And it's not like the Church in Christendom didn't try and stamp out scientific research, but research and science carried on nonetheless especially after the reformation. It's not far fetched at all to assume the Islam of Almanya would see different branches of Islam, considering even the Islam of Andalusia in our world was different from the traditional Islam from the Ummayads or prior Muslim empires. That being said, overall removing any singular major civilization entirely would have catastrophic events in general, and set humanity behind by centuries in general. But I wouldn't believe that the world would be a complete backwater just because the West disappeared and that all other cultures/civilizations were simply not capable based on relativistic analysis. Edit: I think a partnership with Al-Muqaddimah would have been interesting in this video too, in either case the scenario is interesting.
Yeah but if you say Al-Ghazali was where the main conservatism was derived from; a cursory follow up would show that his response to Ibne Sina et al. (though conservative and destructive no doubt) was more on the Aristotelian thinking and categorically not for math since it was more concrete a concept. Then later in life he had near catholic levels of guilt and basically fessed up to being a contrarian just for the shits and gigs. Sewww its hard to say if the ostensibly reactionary takes of this channel are plausible or not
So you are saying that the muslim golden age wasnt muslim but iranian? Anyways, even with Iran destroyed, what made Africa unable of follow they science advancement? I agree that what ended the musli mscietific age was the conservatist revolution that ended the interest or science. If not for that, it would had simply followed in Africa.
@@ladofthedamned7796 Ven more? He reads a lot. You didnt saw how many books he read for his research? Do your own channel if you think you can do better.
Technically the colonization of Europe would help technological development, because, with a larger population, there would be a greater chance That a Genius would be born
Hey great job; even with such huge ideas you still expertly detail causes and effects that would happen in these what if scenarios. You are my favorite channel on UA-cam no doubt.
Some ideas: What if Brazil collapsed after Dom Pedro I left? What if the US went jingoistic after the war of 1812? What if Lenin was right about the world revolution? What if the little ice age was stronger?
Awesome video. Btw Berbers are the majority in Morocco and are not and we're not opressed by any means, especially since we're not talking about a single coherent groups, there are different Berber speaking groups intermixed with different Arabic speaking groups who all exist within the same cultural continuum with only language being different, for example Berber and Arabic speakers from the north are closer to each other than any other group regardless of language.
The implication that all modernization depends on this supposed "European" seems absurd, sure some of it is cultural but as you already explained before you started this weird tangent the main advantage Europe had over the Muslim world was economic development but in this scenario the Ottomans and the Moors will be the ones to have these resources. If your cultural theory was correct then we would not have seen any developments in terms of technology and science from, for example the Ottomans throughout their entire existence. But rather we see technological decline along with their general decline rather than this being the other way round. In fact the Ottomans were the most European when they were in the height of their stagnation culturally and technologically
@@dustin628 but with all the new lands they gained that will cause a lot of changes, European Muslims would possibly be much more liberal than MENA Muslims, and you would probably see something similar to the catholic/protestant divide where one side argues the meaning of the Quran is literal and the other argues that it can change in time, and plus with all the resources available to them it will no longer be easy to control large plots of land, and so the ideals of a king won't be unapposed, there are so many factors that would change, you can't honestly write it off as just them conquering land and saying everything's completely the same otherwise.
with europe gone, a lot of the customers for the chinese and a lot of the tariffs that the muslims had would not exist, therefore pushing the islamic states and the chinese to attempt to develop themselves more or try to find other people to sell their items to, maybe accidentally finding the americas this way
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Plz speak some logical traffs and customer service are introduced in modern times those were past the technological in those would have been ny individual or coinciding factor
The Chinese were pretty much self sufficient. While the Arabs had Islam meaning even with more resources it wouldn't lead to any technological achievements
You seem weirdly dead set on this idea that none of the cultures outside of the west were capable of advancing or doing anything really. Like you can't imagine Muslim Europe being similarly divided to how it was in real life? What if there was a Muslim religious movement in Europe the Ottoman Turks couldn't snuff out and Islam managed to reform? I think its unlikely the Muslim Netherlands would have the same beliefs as a Turk in Constantinope or a Muslim in Bengal.
He doesn't make it clear, but I believe he was referring to the Muslim Europeans being 300-400 years technological setback, because it would take time for them to colonise Europe, and it would only start progressing when the smaller Muslim European countries pop out from under the original colonisers rule.
well to be fair about the borders, the borders in OTL are like that mostly due to geography (for defense, stopping migration, trade, etc) so it makes sense that a muslim nation would have the borders of italy due to the alps, or england due to it being an island. i do think he didnt give enough credit to other civilizations though.
The future of colonies is so dependent on the will of the colonizing power and the local leaders you can not say for sure how it would end up, just look at the new world for an example. The Anglo colonies are often liberal and industrialized for many reasons including English kings allowing political and religious decedent to migrated to the colonies and granting their colonies a lot of autonomy. French Canada and the American south was very conservative because there built by nobility who wanted to just replicate their societies in the new world, France in particular banned its Protestants to migrate to the colonies. Our you have the Spanish colonies who were brutally abused and kept dependent on Madrid by Spain and thus screwed Latin America. Also you have slave states that usually do poorly with industry (Brazil, Caribbean, American South). We simply can't say whether Ottomans would allow religious or political decedent to emigrate or if even they would if allowed. The Ottoman empire was far more tolerant than Europe before 1800s and maybe religious freethinker won't emigrate in rates they did in Europe, also we don't know much the Ottomans and the Moroccans would control their colonies would they grant them autonomy? We don't know. Frontier societies usually would start libertarian if they are left to their own devices (as with the US, ranchers in Argentina and Cossacks in Russia) but can go both paths of democracy / free market and tyranny/serfdom. In conclusion, Muslim colonies in Europe will have a chance in developing like Europe but it would take a longer time and we can't guess anything about it, Japan may awake if something disturbs its isolation, but who? We have no idea. The Chinese regimes of Ming and Qing were either isolationist or only interested in land expansions, Korea managed to defeat Japan in 16th century and made the first Ironclads but the Joseon dynasty was a vassal to the Qing. Maybe a future unknown dynasty in China or Korea decides to repeat the Mongol invasions of Japan for some weird out of place reason (like who Romans conquered Britain only because Emperor Claudius need a military victory). Hell maybe even the Mongol Russia of this timeline conquers Siberia and becomes the threat that disturbs the far east and awakens Japan and then China. But all these cross into the realm of fantasy rather than speculation, they are vague possibilities and that's about it.
Only barely aware of Ethiopia, Prester John myths seem kind of like stretching it. Only barely aware of China and India as well. Italy had trade connections with Peking, which I have on the map and the part of India they would have known the most about would be the West coast.
@@WhatifAltHist oh I was referring to Ethiopian soldiers uses by the Persians during the Greek wars, plus relations with Egypt who had relations with Greece
@@Mike01029 That was 2,000 years before. The Europeans were vaguely aware of Ethiopia, but had no real connections. You've gotta remember, the rise of Islam also really split Europe off from that part of the world.
@@Mike01029 If we're going into mythological accounts, you could really grow the map. The Europeans had unreliable mythological reports of much of Asia, the Americas and Central Africa.
@Sanctus Paulus Because anyone who said that would agree that an ultra-conservative all about traditional world would be a better place yet ironically would be against it because they are racist
I really like watching you're videos, they make up most of what I watch when I'm bored, and I'm glad to see your channel growing much better by the day. Most of your videos have had very interesting timelines which I have found more appealing then most other alternate history UA-camrs from when they did that timeline.
Even if Old-world Muslim governments have no use for America, disinherited sons, exiles and random adventurers would still probably settle here, have a high birthrate and spread all over the place
I think in this universe the superpowers would most likely be The Ottoman Empire, The Chinese Empire, and Morroco, Tunisia would end up being an economic powerhouse much like what The Netherlands was/is.
not really for morocco , if morocco merged with spain it would become a superpower and reinitiate the Moorish Andalussi Civilization , since morocco is not a very nourishing territory ( today it can sustain 40-50 million inhabitants netherlands is only 17 million ) morocco would have been an great power , like France ( which is 60-70 million today ) , not a superpower for sure but a great global power that can project it's capabilities around the world easily.
@@Gray-Wolf the administration of morocco was not very different from the one of turks. The biggest different between the Moorish empires and the ottoman one was demographic resources and natural resources like wood to build boats. central asia and anatolia was way more fertile than north africa for sure.
People are the product of their environment. The geography of Europe both requires and facilitates seafaring. It has over double the coastline of Africa while being a third it’s size. It’s also broken up in a way that makes it almost impossible to be ruled as a whole by a single government. Whoever moves into the area will likely adjust their culture over time to adapt to the environment. There’s no telling how technology might develop under non -Europeans in Europe. The reasons for not developing in other parts of the world could have been geography related. For example China developed to the point where it could dominate the massive area of China up to it’s natural barriers and thensome on all sides. China did not have enough contact with competing civilizations at the time to warrant additional innovations, beyond that it’s number one priority was just keeping itself together, and that meant prioritizing tradition and social harmony and not necessarily allowing for wild ideas and new thought to flourish. China’s geography is what allowed it to have a huge population in the first place but it also might be why it didn’t advance past a certain point. Meanwhile Europe was almost destined to have never ending contact and friction with different cultures and civilization. The geography of Europe makes it so you have different types of people and cultures forming along side each other, trying to outcompete each other, and sharing ideas with each other. Christianity brought Europe together to an extent but it didn’t stop the never ending wars or distinct peoples with different written languages. Any of the other advanced civilizations moving in would likely end up in a similar situation as time went on. Also there’s no telling if European writings and technology would be completely destroyed by the newcomers or not, but chances are many of the existing ideas at the very least based on the structures that would be left behind would have an impact on the development of ideas moving forward. Edit: spelling
I thought the “Years Of Rice And Salt” was a very good read. I consider it well written, though I can’t comment on the historical accuracy considering the book is mostly a speculative work of fiction. You should elaborate on what you mean by, “historically inaccurate”.
He just did, by making this video. It is wildly inaccurate as in unrealistic/no basis to believe it would be like that. She seems to be drawing on her own racist whims, whereas here we have an actual trained historian hypothesizing.
@@TheBooklyBreakdown The timeline of events in Years Of Rice And Salt are as plausible as any other 700 year deviation considering the power and intellectual Vacuum left by that plague. I didn't pick up on anything racist. That would have been one of the points he aught to have elaborated on. I don't see how the Karma and reincarnation parts of the book could be proven one way or another. These videos this guy makes are sometimes as whimsical as Rice and Salt. I haven't researched either of their credentials, but I believe both are trying to sell narratives. I think this guy should do an analysis video on Rice and Salt since the book seems to be an interesting topic for debate.
Geopolitics is often mentioned in these videos. Its basic premis states that the geography plays a major role in shaping politics and thus history. From this it follows that the powers that conquered Europe following the plague would evolve in a similar fashion to European nations in our TL. Maybe slightly later, maybe somewhat differently, but the pressure of fragmented European geography would lead to an ever divided political Europe. These conditions favor those who use trade as a strategy, leading to merchant nations or those who can achieve a technological edge for their military or logistics. Europe would have led exploration one way or the other, just with different people.
You could actually make a video on 'what if eurasia + north africa was wiped out by the black death?', could be interesting to explore what fills such a massive power vacuum...
Let me shed some light on the Western Hemisphere, under this scenario: 1. The Aztec Empire not only would not fall, but might actually spread, both north and southward, and enslave more native peoples, in order to keep feeding their religion (which demanded bloody sacrifices of slaves), and their lavish wealth (which only happened because of their ruthless conquest of Central America). The Inca Empire, similarly, would not have been completely wiped out by PIzarro (who never existed in this timeline). It's altogether likely that a "Great War" between the two empires would take place, as they met somewhere in what is now Columbia. 2. Native cultures, in general, would never be exposed to the European Diseases, which VASTLY DEPOPULATED much of the natives of both continents, thus paving the way for the Europeans (and Americans) to easily take the Western Hemisphere over. Without this depopulation, native culture, in general, would remain much the same, especially in North America, as it did prior to Smallpox/Bubonic plagues being introduced. 3. Horses would never be introduced to the Western Hemisphere by Europeans. So civilizations that relied on horsemanship, like the Lakota, would never become the huge powers that they became, in the 17th/18th Centuries. They might, in fact, be wiped out by their angry neighbors, who hated how the Lakota constantly exerted their dominance over the Great Plains of North America. Their dominance was only possible because of their mastery of horsemanship. As was their hunting of the Buffalo Herds, which fed their ballooning population. 4. America is never a factor. Without the British, there is no British colonization of the Eastern Coast of North America, which would ultimately lead to the juggernaut that is, today, the United States of America. Without American settlers, native cultures are never wiped out, or pushed off of their lands by force. There is no "Trail of Tears," there is no "Wounded Knee." Without European interference, it's very probable that the "Iroqois Confederacy" of northeastern North America, becomes the "superpower" of the western hemisphere's northern sphere. An "Iroqois Empire," so to speak...
Nice touch with the names of an Islamic Europe. By the way, Adrar means mountain in Tamazight (Berber language). Also, a sidenote, Morocco at this time was majority amazigh (Berber), which would make France, the Iberian Peninsula, and Britain extentions of the amazigh population.
Hi! I loved this channel and planned to write my own version. I just have a few questions: 1. Was the Golden Horde already on the verge of breaking up in our timeline, regardless of Russia? 2. How would the Tunisians be so powerful? If they did control the Mediterranean, their only strong trading partners would be the Moroccans and Turks (you can count the Algerians too), which for me is limited. 3. Didn't the Ottomans have the strongest military in the region? They also had the intentoon of conquering Algeria and Tunisia, and tried to invade Morocco. 4. What happens to central asia? 5. Don't you think China will start to capitalize of gunpowder as weapons as soon as a threat (like the Ottomans, somehow) tries to attack them? Or if they try to be a colonial power, they might as well? Those are my thoughts, have a good day and Merry Christmas 😊
I am not sure about colonization, I can see Oman being a colonizing empire in the same vain as the dutch or protugues. They have done this with Africa in our timeline, I can see them going into Asia for the spice islands also.
There is only one question i have in my mind. You said only Europe was advancing in Tech since 1300's but I thought Ottomans were really advanced and were still advancing untill the end of the 16th century.
@Antoine Shelby What is advanced ? Organisation ? Tech ? Ottomans had it. Even among the common people the sicknesses were far lower than in europe because of the advanced medicine and hygine. That is what my austrian proffesors thought me. Untill the very end of 16th century, Turks and or Muslims were far more advanced than the Europe.
@Antoine Shelby We are not talking about power. 16th century is 1500`s. Every historian says the same. Ottoman Empire was the most advanced and powerful empire at that time. Spain got power with the colonization of the America which was only starting at 1565.
Whatifalthist made a scenario where Europe wasn't shown to be the best and is the only continent that had a chance to have advancements...now that would be a challenge for him
Great video, don’t want to be a “islamic nutcase” but you said the ottoman empire would eventually have to split germany up from it and sure that might have happened BUT the exact same borders happened under suleiman when europe was populated. Are you saying that even if the lands were populated, the ottoman empire couldn’t have gotten bigger? I don’t think that makes much sense when the ottomans could have in an alternate timeline broken into vienna and gained acces into germany. Yes, it could have been hard to control those areas but it was a big empire even before it took control of austria or even germany if it wanted to. Also the whole population of europe ceasing to exist would affect technological advanvements but I don’t think that it would totally stop. Search for new lands would be slower because of the discovery of a whole continent to populate but eventually it would happen. Also the russian empire’s nonexistence would create opportunities for the turks to reunite with the turkic peoples. China would have a lot of land to expand into and would probably have to fight the mughals and japan but they would be super strong while the tunisians and moroccians did not have a huge organized army like the ottomans so their control over italy and spain would eventually be called into question. Anyway, you made the video and I enjoyed it, those were my suggestions.
In earlier videos you said you'd do one on no Age of Exploration and in the Aztec video you said you'd do a video on a surviving Inca empire. bout time those come out.
Poland: Where is everybody? Mongolia: I have come to invade your land! Ottoman Empire: Defeating the Byzantines was so easy! There was barely any of them left! Morocco & Tunisia: Hello. Southern Europe: _Error 404. File not found._ Northern Europe: *crickets chirping* Poland: ah shit. all my friends are dead.
I’ve been watching this channel for a while, and I really enjoy it, and this video is no exception. In this sort of scenario, I never really thought of the idea of how the states hypothetical Islamic Europeans would create would be less like the typical idea of a “nation state”. Though, that kind of brings in the question in my mind of to what extent those states would compete with each other in the same way the European nations would. A fair number of the, hold roughly the same mass as European nations in our timeline. Would each of them basically act as satellites from the empires they sprung up from? If there is competition( and presumably competition) to what extent would that spur development? I’m also going to suggest an alternate history here, because that is apparently what people do here: What if the Suez Canal was naturally occurring? I think it might have some big implications for Arabia’s relation with Eastern Rome, especially since the Arab tribes were frequently played off of both them and the Persians before the emergence of Islam. Having that sort of direct link might lead to more preferable trade relations with the Romans/Byzantines in the region, altering cultural diffusion. Granted, I’m not sure if the impact would be that great, given that the Arabian Peninsula would still be a desert, even if it would be a valuable springboard for Indian Ocean trade.
You propose an interesting scenario, but I'm afraid this simple change has too many implications that lie way out of the area of expertise of a historian with focus on medieval history. Firstly, you would have to look at the environmental impact. I am no expert, but I could imagine, that a second connection to the world oceans on the eastern part of the Mediterranean will seriously change how the Mediterranean works. Higher tides, probably stronger currents, maybe higher salt concentrations. And what happens with the Black Sea? From the rear end of a bag of water, to an appendix filled with backwater hanging at the side of a more active Mediterranean. How would this change the ecosystem. And how would any of these changes impact human development along the coasts. No one could tell. Secondly, you just placed a huge geographic obstacle in the middle of human migration. How would that change migration patterns? Would it take just longer to cross into the Middle East and Arabia? Or would humankind ever leave Africa at all? Just for context, the Bosporus blocked migrations that hard, that by the time the first homo sapiens crossed over into the Balkans we had already reached China and were getting ready to island hop to Australia. It had taken nearly 30000 years for the first homo sapiens to set foot into Greece after they had reached the Levant. And thirdly, you just smacked a huge barrier in the middle of one of the most war-torn regions of the bronze age. The Egyptians had quite an impact on the Levant and vice versa and a rather large body of water is not really of much help when we talk about chariot warfare. This could completely change the geo-political landscape of the whole Middle East. And of course, there is always the question how this strait would have changed the impact the Sea peoples had. The Egyptians were one of the few major powers that survived the Late Bronze Age Collapse somewhat and even that only barely. Give the Sea peoples a longer coastline and who knows what would have happened. To answer those questions, one would probably need a marine geology/oceanography education, an education in prehistoric archaeology as well as one in the bronze age Middle East. I am not saying it's impossible, just highly unlikely that anyone would be able to collect all the knowledge needed for a reasonable answer. And even then, we would at best get some educated guesses as this scenario is of way to large a scale to get more concrete than some vague guesses and there is no precedence for such a scenario in our real history. Playing with geography always leads down a rabbit hole you really don't want to go down. I still remember the video Cody did on Alt History Hub on removing the Great Lakes. Took him more than two months and he didn’t even concern himself with the ecological impact or anything that happened before the arrival of the Europeans. And that’s not a luxury you can take when talking about the Middle East. Please understand that I don’t want to shit on your idea, but this just has way too many ramifications, before we even hit the time frame you would be interested in. A thinner landbridge between Sinai and Africa might be a way to circumnavigate those problems, but this might not change anything, as there was already quite a lot of land trade over the Sinai to connect the Indian and Mediterranean trade networks. So, you might just want to look into this topic a little more. Anyways, I hope you could understand most of the points I was making (especially the part about the Black Sea is really badly formulated and I’m sorry for that) and got why this will probably never get an AltHistory. I wish you the best and a nice remaining day.
BlaBla The Seuz isn’t that wide, and the water level on both sides of the canal is exactly the same. Because that’s how oceans work... The straits of Gibraltar stopped no one from conquering Iberia or North Africa from each other.
@@innosam123 I am sorry. I thought it was obvious that a naturally occuring strait would have different dimensions to an artificially created canal. I should have clarified that. [I was assuming for the best case scenario a size similar to the Bosporus (to my knowledge the thinest strait of that size)] Secondly, I am indeed not very adept in the science of oceanography, but even with my meagre knowledge I could tell you, that sea currents are only extremely seldomly influenced by sea levels in any meaningful way. Therefore I don't really see the purpose of your statement, but I am sure you had a valid reason to bring up this unrelated topic, so I would love to hear it. Thirdly, I do not seem to be able to follow your point about Gibraltar. I just can't see the relevance of invasions during the early medieval era for prehistoric migration patterns or ancient warfare in the Middle East. Maybe I am missing something here, so I'd be glad if you could elaborate on your point.
BlaBla We know for a fact that Early humans probably made the way out of Africa via the Bab-el-Mandeb Strait at about the same time they used the Seuz route. They also probably crossed the Strait of Bosporus into Europe. Point is, these Straits pretty much block nothing. If you can cross it in a day on a boat, water is pretty trivial to get across. If it was way wider, it wouldn’t be the Suez Straits anymore- it’d just be an extension of the Mediterranean.
@juba gamer the world moor came from the world Mauritania (modern day morocco) and Moroccans were called Moors since the Roman days What you're thinking about are the moriscos (berbers,Arabs,iberians and goths who became muslims in Andalusia)
I was playing around with the numbers and on average the global population has grown at a little bit under 0.9% since it was about 600 million in 1700. To grow two hundred fold in 300 years is about twice that, ~1.8%. My Scots Irish ancestors were like rabbits and this was easy... once they had a depopulated continent to expand into, of course
I was wondering if you'd read The Years of rice and Salt when I clicked this video :) Though I thought you were pretty harsh on it, it's a great read imo. Kim basically went for the world somehow goes on a very similar history time frame model without the Europeans (colonization, tech progress world wars etc.) and you've gone for the world will totally stagnate without the Europeans. Since the laws of the the universe are still the same whether Europeans exist or not, I think many technological strides would eventually be made in this alternate universe given the right conditions and humans being human. Perhaps Kim kept to a similar timeline since he didn't want to write until 2300-2500 AD (a lot more pages in an already long book) which might have been a more realistic time frame for his altered world. Ultimately perhaps the key point of his book was to create a good thought provoking story, and he did a great job imo.
In a separate video you mentioned that the Mongol invasion of the Middle East may have been the reason Islamic society decided that god was irrational. With all the free real estate of europe, wouldn’t the mongols have just moved in to Europe instead of invadin the Middle East, which could then allow the Muslim world to believe that god was rational?
Now that I came to think of it, Tunisia is trying to take Sicily for almost three thousand years now. First the Carthaginians, then Various different Islamic realms like the Zirids during the early Middle Ages, and, well, now there is immigration, if you think that counts.
The Caspian Ocean The Galilean Ocean The Ocean of Oman The Tzungar Ocean The Qin Ocean The Primorye Ocean The Karen Ocean The Bamar Ocean The Tibetan Ocean Ocean of Bharat The Ocean of Altai The Tuvan Ocean The Sakha ocean The Ocean of Shanghai The purpur ocean The silk ocean
Rant on how the book was inaccuarte but uses a completely false map. There was a kingdom in southern Spain which was "technologically" more developed the iberic kingdoms. There were 3 kingdoms in north Africa not 2. and don't get me started on the middle east. How Europe, excluding the muslim regions, during the black death was more advanced as you say? The astrolabe itself was borrowed from muslims. the library at the University of Paris only had about 2,000 books (McClellan & Dorn, 1999). Here are some imagines to look at g.co/arts/fCV7bePrmjRbtQ2a8 There is strong genetical evidence that people originating from the middle east, north africa and especially andalusia were present during the middle ages in the americas. I'm not saying muslims because there were many chritians, jews and people from other religions. They didn't teleport. There are also evidence that some indeginous indians knew and practiced Islam. Do you think Europeans colonize the americas mainly due to their technology? Anyway, so by the social structure to profit from thr discoveries of the americas is the genocide of one race, the enslavement of another is the best way to go. Humanity is only so lucky. But I guess that the kind of video you get when you use Lemon Juice.
One thought: If Muslims States in Europe were divided an competing against the Ottomans, then maybe there's a chance the Rationalists (Mutazila) sect of Islam made a comeback in regions like Morocco, Al Andalus, or Tunisia, and thus, usher in a new era of progress for the Islamic World. Hell, even some "heretics" might escape to the Americas, much like what happened with the 13 colonies that founded the US. I'm actually writing a book on that, which I may share with you once I finish it.
2:09 Well, how would you prefer we react to such a parallel scenario? Europeans no longer consist the majority in Western European capitals, so don’t trivialise the subsuming of your own people.
You do seem to over look the possibility that the faction of Islam that supported science over religious conservatism could have found root to survive as their own branch in Europe.
@@xjdjaws bro no do not be Mehmet was a chad if a world has one major leader like him it would be different place olso made 69 cannons that weight 18 tons and shot cannonbals 600 kg pull ships on land and olmost all of the european power betray them olso corrapt govenors melt golden relics and turn them into coins to pay mercinerys like fuck europa remeber 4. crusede at least turks did not pretend to be friends
Moroccan Scotland be like:
Do you want a wee bit of hashish there, laddy?
McMohammed
And they'll naturally rebel against Moroccan England.
Dont be ridiculous. Cannabis cant grow in that climate.
@ThirteenFourteen Because the asian red poppy grows quite well in the highlands? No its because its rainy and depressing all the time. No offense. I'd trade you citizenship in a heartbeat.
And not to nitpick but herion? Heroine?
You know what drug I want to do? Heron. Straight bird dope. This strain is called Great Egret, what do ya think? Is it better than Tidewalker?
@ThirteenFourteen you do heroin because Chinese are dumping cheap fentanyl in the west as revenge for the opium wars
Now you know
What if humans didn't trespass in my woods all the time
Then you would have no internet access.
Tell us were you live so we stop trespassing all the time
Big Foot empire in Pacific Northwest trading lumber for idk, what do you guys eat?
Boqoreh babies. They eat babies...
Or mushrooms and berries I can't quite remember
Alt hist I found something I think would interest you
Man imagine being a survivor of a plague then people with onion hats show up
and brings actual means of hygiene... *shrieeks in medieval Europe*
@Jotaro97 Barely. When the Spanish found the aztecs they smelled so bad the aztecs thought they were some reincarnation of a god ( forgot the name).
@@WarriorofChrist612 Being stuck on a boat for several months could have had something to do with that
@Jotaro97 There was. During the Early Modern Period, bathing (or at least public bathing) was in decline due to the possibility of spreading Black Death, among other things.
@Jotaro97 Kings and queens of Europe didn't bath because they feared water hence the extensive use of oder hiding parfumes.
Just look up Louis XIV
What if julius caesar wasn't assassinated?
What if alaska and siberia remained connected?
What if the eastern roman empire fell together with the western one?
What if the western roman empire survived instead of the eastern?
@Terry Cupboards *Ceddin Dedden intensifies*
@Terry Cupboards There would be no medieval period
What if *Desk* won ww1
What if the Vikings united in a single country back than and conquered Europe....Hail Wodan
@@Spacefrisian what if Bhutan won the Spanish civil war?
I have to say is the one Chanel I am always excited for when they release a new video
So much research and effort put into these videos, it’s hard not to love these works of art
@@johnpaulcross424u7 I'm iihhi I'm u uni justhiup u jul hi I'm u just jitIú your day go in you in uy it UU in IIT you hi JJ 7 in hi I'm in uu
True
As well as History Matters, CaspianReport, and Kings and Generals.
Heart 💔 broken accident in India. 4 dead. Just watch. Support us
ua-cam.com/video/7MZC8DVMdAw/v-deo.html
You should do what if China industrialized in the 11th century like you mentioned almost happened
I agree
given how the song dynasty changed stuff often like adding paper money I can see the debate between the industrialization being close
all it takes is the emperor around at the time deciding to pursue this like how Emperor Yongle alone allowed Zheng He to do all his exploring despite court bureaucracy
@@WhatifAltHist What if you did a video about what if Zheng He's voyages led to China being a colonial empire?
@@yiyi3926 already done
@@WhatifAltHist when is that coming
"The Chinese didn't want an industrial revolution, for fear of giving the merchant class too much power."
I mean, judging from what happened in our timeline, can you really say they were wrong about that?
In our case it was the merchants taking the place of the nobility with the industrial revolution following afterwards.
@@thebandofbastards4934 I'd argue it was more like the two groups took on a sort of dual-leadership role until we realized we really didn't need actual nobility before leaving tycoons as the last ones standing.
Merchants were were quite powerful before the first empire. Even so, they were nowhere as powerful as modern corporations are.
@@CannibaLouiST I find it pretty amusing how the turnaround happened. Plague ravages Europe. Nobles have all the technical power and no money. Merchants have all the money and none of the authority and say, "Hey, maybe we can help each other."
@@safehavenonice6431 If Costantinople never fell to the Turks, Europeans probably would have less incentives to explore (or to get Indian goods themselves). Maybe would have occurred a bit later. I still haven't finished reading The Years of Rice And Salt. Very nice alternate history novel, and it's a long one
3:30 berbers after they realize that they're a minority between superpowers
*I am going to be switzerland*
I don't know what he meant by Berber minority. Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians & Libyans are ethnic Berbers.
Do you Guys play age of empire 2 if you do berber with turk allies is op
morocco in 1300 was ruled by amohades which is a berber dynasty and probably more than 90% of moroccans in that era were berbers
@@amined.9430 not all of them
@@abraarhuq9221 The overwhelming majority is
I swear that the thumbnail will cause a flamewar in this comment section.
@Xenate Devereaux everyone 🤣
The thumbnail confused me, because I was trying to figure out how Ethiopians wound up settling in the Carpathians.
Xenate Devereaux there are those in the EU and US that are rather uncomfortable with rapid demographic change if you catch my drift
As an Algerian it sure made me
Ultra-Nationalistic European Moment
Tunisians colonising Italy, Sicily, Sardinia, and Corsica, establishing a mercantile empire in the Central Mediterranean....
Wait, this is Carthage, isn't it?
It seems the basis of argument that the Islamic world became stagnant and opposed to scientific advancement in the 13th century is asserted without acknowledging that this was marked by the destruction of the Baghdad House of Wisdom and the subsequent destruction of Baghdad by the mongols. This doesn’t seem likely if we go by the overall thesis of the scenario cuz the mongols would’ve had a lot more alternatives than the Mid East to expand to and the Muslim world would’ve had more expansion to pull resources and manpower from in order to defend its borders here.
A similar argument of disconnection from the conditions of OTL revolving the massive conservative reaction of the Chinese leadership is similarly not likely to occur in this TL due to the pressures of external forces not giving the perception that China was “loosing its way” as seen by their leadership of the time.
Guy, you said a great nonsense.
Bagdad was destroyed be4 the plague.
Science was already falling be4 the destructio of the house of wisdom.
Africa and India werent affected by the mongols, they could had followed the science.
So no, was an entire civilisational turn.
Ruyard said that everyone invaded by mogls turned consevative. The damage was alreay done in this scenario, so, China would be consevative.
In fact the song already banned their own industrial age be4 be conquered by the mongols.
@@adamnesico India wasn’t effected by the mongols 🤨; I guess the whole Mogul and other hordes turned empires just magically disappeared? You, guy, just said a great bunch of ahistorical nonsense.
@@dont-rump901 Donkey brain, the gurkhanis invaded India centuries later in a more civiliced way, they were something diferent.
You were the one who made a phallacy of reduction to the absurd. You are the one talking nonsense.
I think a good way to think of history is in terms of breakthroughs. In general, everything is in placid stagnation for ages or even eons, and then a convergence of important events happens that completely changes everything in like 5 minutes.
In modern society that's the creation of a new technology.
In ancient society it was the creation of a new system that was socially or martially dominant.
In the history of mankind, it's the creation of civilization itself. Prior to that we were glorified wolves, and that period still encompasses 95% of all human existence.
It's very difficult if not impossible to know where the next breakthrough will be. So, an alt timeline like this that snuffs out the breakthrough of European colonization is setting up the ground for another breakthrough to happen by chance. Something LIKE Renaissance Europe will emerge, but probably not for millennia; possibly not for tens of millennia. Not until there's a major change in geopolitics, society and even religion that catalyzes it.
Carthago delenda est!
@@WhatifAltHist not a wise move to post it now am gonna spam you with these scenarios if you don't do them :
1st what if the USSR was forced to join the axis instead of the allies & what if they won & a cold war between Nazi Germany & USSR starts how's it gonna be.
2nd what if the 1st communist revolution happened in the US instead of Russia
3rd what if the Scandinavians were all united in the start of the viking age and started a conquest in Europe similar to the mongols & Arabs (refer to the British isles as Britgard or Britainheim in this timeline)
4th what if in the 2 times that Suleiman the magnificent besieged Vienna he took it
5th what if Ireland was the one to unite the British isles & not England & Scotland
@@WhatifAltHist I don't suggest posting your email since you can get spam.
@@WhatifAltHist What if the USSR and the USA started WWIII in 1962? Who would win ( in no or very few nukes scenario )? I`ve researched this topic and relised that both superstates had equal power.
@@hadtrio6629 wtf, don't spam
2:40 I'm getting a strong sense of deja vu..... *cough* Carthage
#DionneWarwick *has entered the chat*
*CARTHAGO DELENDA EST*
Rule carthage carthage rule the waves
This was an enjoyable video, but this was definitely one of your weaker ones. You've made a few false analysis here, while it is true that the Islamic Golden Age was plagued by conservatism, it is worth noting that the major reason that the Islamic Golden Age ended was the destruction of most of the middle East and the destabilisation subsequently of the region by the Mongols. The Muslims made innovations in spite of converatism and literal civil war during the Golden Age, without as big a mongol threat, steam power was already becoming a concept. Check out the Musa brothers who invented self-playing lutes using steam and water power, or people like Ibn Firnas who had began the concept of aviation and flight 700 years before Davinci.
I do get your argument, but the major reason European civilisation advanced was because of a consistent presence of warring states with limited land, you yourself pointed out that the initial migrant states would eventually break off. It is highly plausible that these states would also face a similar peril from Mongol migration and the imminent Ottoman Empire near them, and feel the need for technological advancement. The face-offs between these countries would set the stage for warring much like what Europe faced. With the eventual population of Britain too.
Also, most of the Islamic kingdoms weren't governed by single authority, you do define the Islamic Empires as "Islam" but the clergy in Arabia had little say over the people of Andalus, Turkey, Central Asia or India. The threat of conservatism in one region doesn't influence all the others. And it's not like the Church in Christendom didn't try and stamp out scientific research, but research and science carried on nonetheless especially after the reformation. It's not far fetched at all to assume the Islam of Almanya would see different branches of Islam, considering even the Islam of Andalusia in our world was different from the traditional Islam from the Ummayads or prior Muslim empires.
That being said, overall removing any singular major civilization entirely would have catastrophic events in general, and set humanity behind by centuries in general. But I wouldn't believe that the world would be a complete backwater just because the West disappeared and that all other cultures/civilizations were simply not capable based on relativistic analysis.
Edit: I think a partnership with Al-Muqaddimah would have been interesting in this video too, in either case the scenario is interesting.
Yeah but if you say Al-Ghazali was where the main conservatism was derived from; a cursory follow up would show that his response to Ibne Sina et al. (though conservative and destructive no doubt) was more on the Aristotelian thinking and categorically not for math since it was more concrete a concept. Then later in life he had near catholic levels of guilt and basically fessed up to being a contrarian just for the shits and gigs. Sewww its hard to say if the ostensibly reactionary takes of this channel are plausible or not
Tip: Always research anything a Popular UA-camr says.
whatifalthist really needs to read more.
So you are saying that the muslim golden age wasnt muslim but iranian?
Anyways, even with Iran destroyed, what made Africa unable of follow they science advancement?
I agree that what ended the musli mscietific age was the conservatist revolution that ended the interest or science.
If not for that, it would had simply followed in Africa.
@@ladofthedamned7796 Ven more? He reads a lot. You didnt saw how many books he read for his research?
Do your own channel if you think you can do better.
@@adamnesico Chill
Technically the colonization of Europe would help technological development, because, with a larger population, there would be a greater chance That a Genius would be born
Innovations happen when the overpopulation starts to occur. So, the states in stagnation and risk of disappearing will push the global technology.
1:56 "I love that I have a fan base where I have a fan base"
Hey great job; even with such huge ideas you still expertly detail causes and effects that would happen in these what if scenarios. You are my favorite channel on UA-cam no doubt.
What if the Soviets and UK didn't invade Iran
Then the Germans would’ve a held much longer in stalingrad before getting kicked.
I thought the USA invaded
@Kue Eh Htoo And the SU.
Some ideas:
What if Brazil collapsed after Dom Pedro I left?
What if the US went jingoistic after the war of 1812?
What if Lenin was right about the world revolution?
What if the little ice age was stronger?
What if #InriCristo became king of Brazil?
Guilherme Hiroshi Correa Kuroishi I smell Brazilian name.
@@wandaperi essa foi de arrebentar a boca do balão
The US was jingoistic after the war of 1812
Awesome video. Btw Berbers are the majority in Morocco and are not and we're not opressed by any means, especially since we're not talking about a single coherent groups, there are different Berber speaking groups intermixed with different Arabic speaking groups who all exist within the same cultural continuum with only language being different, for example Berber and Arabic speakers from the north are closer to each other than any other group regardless of language.
What if Britain was victorious in its invasions of the River Plate
THIS PLEASE
Kim Jong un 😂🤣
The thumbnail just gave me such a good idea for a EU4 scenario
The implication that all modernization depends on this supposed "European" seems absurd, sure some of it is cultural but as you already explained before you started this weird tangent the main advantage Europe had over the Muslim world was economic development but in this scenario the Ottomans and the Moors will be the ones to have these resources.
If your cultural theory was correct then we would not have seen any developments in terms of technology and science from, for example the Ottomans throughout their entire existence. But rather we see technological decline along with their general decline rather than this being the other way round. In fact the Ottomans were the most European when they were in the height of their stagnation culturally and technologically
His cultural theory is correct though. Did we watch the same video? The Chinese and Muslim empires stopped progressing technologically in 1200AD.
@@dustin628 Then how come the Europeans failed to win out against any these cultures until the 19th century?
@@dustin628 but with all the new lands they gained that will cause a lot of changes, European Muslims would possibly be much more liberal than MENA Muslims, and you would probably see something similar to the catholic/protestant divide where one side argues the meaning of the Quran is literal and the other argues that it can change in time, and plus with all the resources available to them it will no longer be easy to control large plots of land, and so the ideals of a king won't be unapposed, there are so many factors that would change, you can't honestly write it off as just them conquering land and saying everything's completely the same otherwise.
@@yungsteaksauceakalilwasher6571 Because europeans didn't tried before 19th century
with europe gone, a lot of the customers for the chinese and a lot of the tariffs that the muslims had would not exist, therefore pushing the islamic states and the chinese to attempt to develop themselves more or try to find other people to sell their items to, maybe accidentally finding the americas this way
Plz speak some logical traffs and customer service are introduced in modern times those were past the technological in those would have been ny individual or coinciding factor
The Chinese were pretty much self sufficient. While the Arabs had Islam meaning even with more resources it wouldn't lead to any technological achievements
@Lord Phoenix then why haven't they done shit since their golden age
@Lord Phoenix the persian would
@@autarch6376 Mongolian conquest that destroyed Baghdad and the crusades
You seem weirdly dead set on this idea that none of the cultures outside of the west were capable of advancing or doing anything really. Like you can't imagine Muslim Europe being similarly divided to how it was in real life? What if there was a Muslim religious movement in Europe the Ottoman Turks couldn't snuff out and Islam managed to reform? I think its unlikely the Muslim Netherlands would have the same beliefs as a Turk in Constantinope or a Muslim in Bengal.
He doesn't make it clear, but I believe he was referring to the Muslim Europeans being 300-400 years technological setback, because it would take time for them to colonise Europe, and it would only start progressing when the smaller Muslim European countries pop out from under the original colonisers rule.
well to be fair about the borders, the borders in OTL are like that mostly due to geography (for defense, stopping migration, trade, etc) so it makes sense that a muslim nation would have the borders of italy due to the alps, or england due to it being an island. i do think he didnt give enough credit to other civilizations though.
The future of colonies is so dependent on the will of the colonizing power and the local leaders you can not say for sure how it would end up, just look at the new world for an example. The Anglo colonies are often liberal and industrialized for many reasons including English kings allowing political and religious decedent to migrated to the colonies and granting their colonies a lot of autonomy.
French Canada and the American south was very conservative because there built by nobility who wanted to just replicate their societies in the new world, France in particular banned its Protestants to migrate to the colonies. Our you have the Spanish colonies who were brutally abused and kept dependent on Madrid by Spain and thus screwed Latin America. Also you have slave states that usually do poorly with industry (Brazil, Caribbean, American South). We simply can't say whether Ottomans would allow religious or political decedent to emigrate or if even they would if allowed. The Ottoman empire was far more tolerant than Europe before 1800s and maybe religious freethinker won't emigrate in rates they did in Europe, also we don't know much the Ottomans and the Moroccans would control their colonies would they grant them autonomy? We don't know. Frontier societies usually would start libertarian if they are left to their own devices (as with the US, ranchers in Argentina and Cossacks in Russia) but can go both paths of democracy / free market and tyranny/serfdom.
In conclusion, Muslim colonies in Europe will have a chance in developing like Europe but it would take a longer time and we can't guess anything about it, Japan may awake if something disturbs its isolation, but who? We have no idea. The Chinese regimes of Ming and Qing were either isolationist or only interested in land expansions, Korea managed to defeat Japan in 16th century and made the first Ironclads but the Joseon dynasty was a vassal to the Qing. Maybe a future unknown dynasty in China or Korea decides to repeat the Mongol invasions of Japan for some weird out of place reason (like who Romans conquered Britain only because Emperor Claudius need a military victory). Hell maybe even the Mongol Russia of this timeline conquers Siberia and becomes the threat that disturbs the far east and awakens Japan and then China. But all these cross into the realm of fantasy rather than speculation, they are vague possibilities and that's about it.
Oh God that thumbnail is literally just hell.
Pffff lol why
No, it is an alt-hist Europe. You need your eyes checked out.
because of you
That thumbnail seems so nice....
But it will soon come true
@@maddogbasil not if we fight against it instead of just being blackpilled like u
0:11 weren't Europeans already aware of India, Ethiopia and China at that time?
I think even the Romans knew about ancient China
Only barely aware of Ethiopia, Prester John myths seem kind of like stretching it. Only barely aware of China and India as well. Italy had trade connections with Peking, which I have on the map and the part of India they would have known the most about would be the West coast.
@@WhatifAltHist oh I was referring to Ethiopian soldiers uses by the Persians during the Greek wars, plus relations with Egypt who had relations with Greece
@@Mike01029 That was 2,000 years before. The Europeans were vaguely aware of Ethiopia, but had no real connections. You've gotta remember, the rise of Islam also really split Europe off from that part of the world.
@@WhatifAltHist ah that makes sense
@@Mike01029 If we're going into mythological accounts, you could really grow the map. The Europeans had unreliable mythological reports of much of Asia, the Americas and Central Africa.
"I need to define Europe to my fanbase"
"My fanbase is smarter than the average population"
🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
What conclusion should I take?
That his fanbase is demanding about the precision of definitions.
His fanbase is smart, but not so smart as him.
that we know Europe isn't a continent
@@عبدالرحمنهندي-ل2ط then what is it
@@MK-qb7nj hmmm let me see last time i checked it is part of asia, thats why we call it Eurasia
I have met far too many students who would respond to this question by saying "The world would be a bettter place".
Academia has failed them
That's what liberal brainwashing will do. /s
@Sanctus Paulus Because anyone who said that would agree that an ultra-conservative all about traditional world would be a better place yet ironically would be against it because they are racist
So no one has ever said it to you, but you are just putting words into their mouths to push your political viewpoint. Ok,
@@qualityshitposter9314yeah blame it on the democrats bc they like lgbt and they so bad not sigma
I really like watching you're videos, they make up most of what I watch when I'm bored, and I'm glad to see your channel growing much better by the day. Most of your videos have had very interesting timelines which I have found more appealing then most other alternate history UA-camrs from when they did that timeline.
Bro berbers are moors are tunisians . all of these are called amazighs and it is the same ethnicity
What if Carthage won the Punic Wars
(Specifically: What if Hannibal went for Rome or What if Massinisa didn't turn on Carthage)
Also, I love how you make new videos as your knowledge of prior timelines gets updated. Keep it up.
Even if Old-world Muslim governments have no use for America, disinherited sons, exiles and random adventurers would still probably settle here, have a high birthrate and spread all over the place
2:14 "I'm waiting for the Alt-righters to say in the comments "this is just the world now"." Well they aren't wrong aren't they?
They kinda are? The muslim population of Europe now really isn’t that big or that big of a deal
@@goodluckgorsky3413 Big or small, they still are there.
@@someguysomeone3543 just let them be. they dont harm anyone
@@conservativeanprim8903 Depends, either way their superior birthrates combined with our failing one are extremely worrying.
@@someguysomeone3543 do you hate their religion or their ethnicity?
I’m dying at the side message at 2:12
So is that French teacher who had her head chopped off by a Muslim.
@@frjoethesecond found the alt righter
@@frjoethesecond her ?
I think in this universe the superpowers would most likely be The Ottoman Empire, The Chinese Empire, and Morroco, Tunisia would end up being an economic powerhouse much like what The Netherlands was/is.
not really for morocco , if morocco merged with spain it would become a superpower and reinitiate the Moorish Andalussi Civilization , since morocco is not a very nourishing territory ( today it can sustain 40-50 million inhabitants netherlands is only 17 million ) morocco would have been an great power , like France ( which is 60-70 million today ) , not a superpower for sure but a great global power that can project it's capabilities around the world easily.
@@nourbendali2206 it would depend on how strong there administration and army are
@@Gray-Wolf the administration of morocco was not very different from the one of turks. The biggest different between the Moorish empires and the ottoman one was demographic resources and natural resources like wood to build boats.
central asia and anatolia was way more fertile than north africa for sure.
@@nourbendali2206 of course, North Africa is mostly desert
People are the product of their environment. The geography of Europe both requires and facilitates seafaring. It has over double the coastline of Africa while being a third it’s size. It’s also broken up in a way that makes it almost impossible to be ruled as a whole by a single government. Whoever moves into the area will likely adjust their culture over time to adapt to the environment. There’s no telling how technology might develop under non -Europeans in Europe. The reasons for not developing in other parts of the world could have been geography related. For example China developed to the point where it could dominate the massive area of China up to it’s natural barriers and thensome on all sides. China did not have enough contact with competing civilizations at the time to warrant additional innovations, beyond that it’s number one priority was just keeping itself together, and that meant prioritizing tradition and social harmony and not necessarily allowing for wild ideas and new thought to flourish. China’s geography is what allowed it to have a huge population in the first place but it also might be why it didn’t advance past a certain point. Meanwhile Europe was almost destined to have never ending contact and friction with different cultures and civilization. The geography of Europe makes it so you have different types of people and cultures forming along side each other, trying to outcompete each other, and sharing ideas with each other. Christianity brought Europe together to an extent but it didn’t stop the never ending wars or distinct peoples with different written languages. Any of the other advanced civilizations moving in would likely end up in a similar situation as time went on. Also there’s no telling if European writings and technology would be completely destroyed by the newcomers or not, but chances are many of the existing ideas at the very least based on the structures that would be left behind would have an impact on the development of ideas moving forward.
Edit: spelling
BuT IsLaM iS aLrEaDy TaKiNg OvEr EuRoPe (you wanted someone to say it)
Notice how no one said it except u
@ThirteenFourteen i like scot land 😏
I thought the “Years Of Rice And Salt” was a very good read. I consider it well written, though I can’t comment on the historical accuracy considering the book is mostly a speculative work of fiction. You should elaborate on what you mean by, “historically inaccurate”.
He just did, by making this video. It is wildly inaccurate as in unrealistic/no basis to believe it would be like that. She seems to be drawing on her own racist whims, whereas here we have an actual trained historian hypothesizing.
@@TheBooklyBreakdown The timeline of events in Years Of Rice And Salt are as plausible as any other 700 year deviation considering the power and intellectual Vacuum left by that plague. I didn't pick up on anything racist. That would have been one of the points he aught to have elaborated on. I don't see how the Karma and reincarnation parts of the book could be proven one way or another. These videos this guy makes are sometimes as whimsical as Rice and Salt. I haven't researched either of their credentials, but I believe both are trying to sell narratives. I think this guy should do an analysis video on Rice and Salt since the book seems to be an interesting topic for debate.
I wanted to read this book but now I'm not sure
Ottoman Empire : We are the new Roman Empire.
Roum: NO
Geopolitics is often mentioned in these videos. Its basic premis states that the geography plays a major role in shaping politics and thus history. From this it follows that the powers that conquered Europe following the plague would evolve in a similar fashion to European nations in our TL. Maybe slightly later, maybe somewhat differently, but the pressure of fragmented European geography would lead to an ever divided political Europe. These conditions favor those who use trade as a strategy, leading to merchant nations or those who can achieve a technological edge for their military or logistics. Europe would have led exploration one way or the other, just with different people.
Are not Moors the same really as Berbers? then again, Berbers were not one united people but warring clans, just like the germanic peoples.
@Antoine Shelby man ...
@Antoine Shelby Mauritania was not Morocco modern day , Moors kingdom was the modern day Morocco but they are both Berber
@Antoine Shelby
He is Algerian what do you Expect lol
He made a mistake, the Moors (Moroccans) are indeed Berbers.
Cool vid, but hot damn the bordergore is awful, haven’t seen border that bad since ck2.
Eu4 transferred to hoi4 borders are terrible
@@AW27007 You have not seen Ck2 to EU4
@@thebandofbastards4934 god, should I?
@@AW27007 I have an example of it
www.reddit.com/r/eu4/comments/5zrjqf/when_using_the_eu4_converter_for_the_first_time/?
@@thebandofbastards4934 oh god that was horrible
You could actually make a video on 'what if eurasia + north africa was wiped out by the black death?', could be interesting to explore what fills such a massive power vacuum...
Yeah the black death did not impact just Europe
Let me shed some light on the Western Hemisphere, under this scenario:
1. The Aztec Empire not only would not fall, but might actually spread, both north and southward, and enslave more native peoples, in order to keep feeding their religion (which demanded bloody sacrifices of slaves), and their lavish wealth (which only happened because of their ruthless conquest of Central America). The Inca Empire, similarly, would not have been completely wiped out by PIzarro (who never existed in this timeline). It's altogether likely that a "Great War" between the two empires would take place, as they met somewhere in what is now Columbia.
2. Native cultures, in general, would never be exposed to the European Diseases, which VASTLY DEPOPULATED much of the natives of both continents, thus paving the way for the Europeans (and Americans) to easily take the Western Hemisphere over. Without this depopulation, native culture, in general, would remain much the same, especially in North America, as it did prior to Smallpox/Bubonic plagues being introduced.
3. Horses would never be introduced to the Western Hemisphere by Europeans. So civilizations that relied on horsemanship, like the Lakota, would never become the huge powers that they became, in the 17th/18th Centuries. They might, in fact, be wiped out by their angry neighbors, who hated how the Lakota constantly exerted their dominance over the Great Plains of North America. Their dominance was only possible because of their mastery of horsemanship. As was their hunting of the Buffalo Herds, which fed their ballooning population.
4. America is never a factor. Without the British, there is no British colonization of the Eastern Coast of North America, which would ultimately lead to the juggernaut that is, today, the United States of America. Without American settlers, native cultures are never wiped out, or pushed off of their lands by force. There is no "Trail of Tears," there is no "Wounded Knee." Without European interference, it's very probable that the "Iroqois Confederacy" of northeastern North America, becomes the "superpower" of the western hemisphere's northern sphere. An "Iroqois Empire," so to speak...
No emu war as well, meaning their power would only grow.
Nice touch with the names of an Islamic Europe. By the way, Adrar means mountain in Tamazight (Berber language). Also, a sidenote, Morocco at this time was majority amazigh (Berber), which would make France, the Iberian Peninsula, and Britain extentions of the amazigh population.
الانجليز اتعمر بريافة ههههههه
Hi! I loved this channel and planned to write my own version. I just have a few questions:
1. Was the Golden Horde already on the verge of breaking up in our timeline, regardless of Russia?
2. How would the Tunisians be so powerful? If they did control the Mediterranean, their only strong trading partners would be the Moroccans and Turks (you can count the Algerians too), which for me is limited.
3. Didn't the Ottomans have the strongest military in the region? They also had the intentoon of conquering Algeria and Tunisia, and tried to invade Morocco.
4. What happens to central asia?
5. Don't you think China will start to capitalize of gunpowder as weapons as soon as a threat (like the Ottomans, somehow) tries to attack them? Or if they try to be a colonial power, they might as well?
Those are my thoughts, have a good day and Merry Christmas 😊
> Germany becomes Turkish Colony
Whats the differance with OTL?
Add in Syria, Afghanistan, and North Africa and you have OTL
Merkel would be the last choice for puppet ruler
> imports the third world
> becomes the third world
@@ogloc6308 Colonize the third world become the third world
@@mrnobody7600 like the ottomans colonised eastern Europe
Video Idea: What if China stayed disunited after the collapse of the Zhou Dynasty?
Andrew Mongol mongol eats china and intergrates them to mongolic because they are so divided they cant put up a rebellion
i feel like poland should be the only one left alone, like it was in in our timeline.
I am not sure about colonization, I can see Oman being a colonizing empire in the same vain as the dutch or protugues. They have done this with Africa in our timeline, I can see them going into Asia for the spice islands also.
Wouldn’t the multiple competing Muslim states in Europe spur technological progress?
pretty much, Islamic countries would modernise into a secular states eventually
imagine getting wiped out by some plague that came out of nowhere
Native Americans be like
@@constantinethecataphract5949 it do be like that.
There is only one question i have in my mind. You said only Europe was advancing in Tech since 1300's but I thought Ottomans were really advanced and were still advancing untill the end of the 16th century.
@Antoine Shelby What is advanced ? Organisation ? Tech ? Ottomans had it. Even among the common people the sicknesses were far lower than in europe because of the advanced medicine and hygine. That is what my austrian proffesors thought me. Untill the very end of 16th century, Turks and or Muslims were far more advanced than the Europe.
@Antoine Shelby We are not talking about power. 16th century is 1500`s. Every historian says the same. Ottoman Empire was the most advanced and powerful empire at that time. Spain got power with the colonization of the America which was only starting at 1565.
Whatifalthist made a scenario where Europe wasn't shown to be the best and is the only continent that had a chance to have advancements...now that would be a challenge for him
Without looking at the comments I'm sure someone has written this is a current map
Great video, don’t want to be a “islamic nutcase” but you said the ottoman empire would eventually have to split germany up from it and sure that might have happened BUT the exact same borders happened under suleiman when europe was populated. Are you saying that even if the lands were populated, the ottoman empire couldn’t have gotten bigger? I don’t think that makes much sense when the ottomans could have in an alternate timeline broken into vienna and gained acces into germany. Yes, it could have been hard to control those areas but it was a big empire even before it took control of austria or even germany if it wanted to. Also the whole population of europe ceasing to exist would affect technological advanvements but I don’t think that it would totally stop. Search for new lands would be slower because of the discovery of a whole continent to populate but eventually it would happen. Also the russian empire’s nonexistence would create opportunities for the turks to reunite with the turkic peoples. China would have a lot of land to expand into and would probably have to fight the mughals and japan but they would be super strong while the tunisians and moroccians did not have a huge organized army like the ottomans so their control over italy and spain would eventually be called into question. Anyway, you made the video and I enjoyed it, those were my suggestions.
The ottomans didnt have the supply lines to make it any further then vienna
Really love your videos man! Heres an idea, What if Empress Dowager Cixi succeeded in her reforms to make the Qing a Constitutional Monarchy?
In earlier videos you said you'd do one on no Age of Exploration and in the Aztec video you said you'd do a video on a surviving Inca empire. bout time those come out.
You haven't even covered half of them. They're a cynical ploy in order to keep the videos shorter. :)
@@WhatifAltHist genius
What if (like in our timeline) some coumtries were spared from the plague like Poland, Bohemia and parts of Belgium?
There's a book based on this concept, The Years of Rice and Salt. It's pretty good.
dude... he mentioned it 3 minutes in
For a moment I thought it was a map of the future.
Poland: Where is everybody?
Mongolia: I have come to invade your land!
Ottoman Empire: Defeating the Byzantines was so easy! There was barely any of them left!
Morocco & Tunisia: Hello.
Southern Europe: _Error 404. File not found._
Northern Europe: *crickets chirping*
Poland: ah shit. all my friends are dead.
probably one of the darkest alternate timelines
unironically calling yourself "kek" in 2020 and using a "meme magic xdd" profile pic, lol.
Yeah, pretty dark.
Me: Gets notification by whatifalthist
Also me: It'S ABoUt TImE!
Always.
How does Egypt get so far into the malarial parts of Africa? Egypt in 1880 had quinine and other anti-Malarial drugs.
I’ve been watching this channel for a while, and I really enjoy it, and this video is no exception. In this sort of scenario, I never really thought of the idea of how the states hypothetical Islamic Europeans would create would be less like the typical idea of a “nation state”. Though, that kind of brings in the question in my mind of to what extent those states would compete with each other in the same way the European nations would. A fair number of the, hold roughly the same mass as European nations in our timeline. Would each of them basically act as satellites from the empires they sprung up from? If there is competition( and presumably competition) to what extent would that spur development?
I’m also going to suggest an alternate history here, because that is apparently what people do here: What if the Suez Canal was naturally occurring? I think it might have some big implications for Arabia’s relation with Eastern Rome, especially since the Arab tribes were frequently played off of both them and the Persians before the emergence of Islam. Having that sort of direct link might lead to more preferable trade relations with the Romans/Byzantines in the region, altering cultural diffusion. Granted, I’m not sure if the impact would be that great, given that the Arabian Peninsula would still be a desert, even if it would be a valuable springboard for Indian Ocean trade.
You propose an interesting scenario, but I'm afraid this simple change has too many implications that lie way out of the area of expertise of a historian with focus on medieval history.
Firstly, you would have to look at the environmental impact. I am no expert, but I could imagine, that a second connection to the world oceans on the eastern part of the Mediterranean will seriously change how the Mediterranean works. Higher tides, probably stronger currents, maybe higher salt concentrations. And what happens with the Black Sea? From the rear end of a bag of water, to an appendix filled with backwater hanging at the side of a more active Mediterranean. How would this change the ecosystem. And how would any of these changes impact human development along the coasts. No one could tell.
Secondly, you just placed a huge geographic obstacle in the middle of human migration. How would that change migration patterns? Would it take just longer to cross into the Middle East and Arabia? Or would humankind ever leave Africa at all? Just for context, the Bosporus blocked migrations that hard, that by the time the first homo sapiens crossed over into the Balkans we had already reached China and were getting ready to island hop to Australia. It had taken nearly 30000 years for the first homo sapiens to set foot into Greece after they had reached the Levant.
And thirdly, you just smacked a huge barrier in the middle of one of the most war-torn regions of the bronze age. The Egyptians had quite an impact on the Levant and vice versa and a rather large body of water is not really of much help when we talk about chariot warfare. This could completely change the geo-political landscape of the whole Middle East.
And of course, there is always the question how this strait would have changed the impact the Sea peoples had. The Egyptians were one of the few major powers that survived the Late Bronze Age Collapse somewhat and even that only barely. Give the Sea peoples a longer coastline and who knows what would have happened.
To answer those questions, one would probably need a marine geology/oceanography education, an education in prehistoric archaeology as well as one in the bronze age Middle East. I am not saying it's impossible, just highly unlikely that anyone would be able to collect all the knowledge needed for a reasonable answer. And even then, we would at best get some educated guesses as this scenario is of way to large a scale to get more concrete than some vague guesses and there is no precedence for such a scenario in our real history.
Playing with geography always leads down a rabbit hole you really don't want to go down. I still remember the video Cody did on Alt History Hub on removing the Great Lakes. Took him more than two months and he didn’t even concern himself with the ecological impact or anything that happened before the arrival of the Europeans. And that’s not a luxury you can take when talking about the Middle East.
Please understand that I don’t want to shit on your idea, but this just has way too many ramifications, before we even hit the time frame you would be interested in. A thinner landbridge between Sinai and Africa might be a way to circumnavigate those problems, but this might not change anything, as there was already quite a lot of land trade over the Sinai to connect the Indian and Mediterranean trade networks. So, you might just want to look into this topic a little more.
Anyways, I hope you could understand most of the points I was making (especially the part about the Black Sea is really badly formulated and I’m sorry for that) and got why this will probably never get an AltHistory.
I wish you the best and a nice remaining day.
BlaBla The Seuz isn’t that wide, and the water level on both sides of the canal is exactly the same. Because that’s how oceans work...
The straits of Gibraltar stopped no one from conquering Iberia or North Africa from each other.
I meant the European states in the video.
@@innosam123 I am sorry. I thought it was obvious that a naturally occuring strait would have different dimensions to an artificially created canal. I should have clarified that.
[I was assuming for the best case scenario a size similar to the Bosporus (to my knowledge the thinest strait of that size)]
Secondly, I am indeed not very adept in the science of oceanography, but even with my meagre knowledge I could tell you, that sea currents are only extremely seldomly influenced by sea levels in any meaningful way. Therefore I don't really see the purpose of your statement, but I am sure you had a valid reason to bring up this unrelated topic, so I would love to hear it.
Thirdly, I do not seem to be able to follow your point about Gibraltar. I just can't see the relevance of invasions during the early medieval era for prehistoric migration patterns or ancient warfare in the Middle East. Maybe I am missing something here, so I'd be glad if you could elaborate on your point.
BlaBla We know for a fact that Early humans probably made the way out of Africa via the Bab-el-Mandeb Strait at about the same time they used the Seuz route.
They also probably crossed the Strait of Bosporus into Europe.
Point is, these Straits pretty much block nothing. If you can cross it in a day on a boat, water is pretty trivial to get across. If it was way wider, it wouldn’t be the Suez Straits anymore- it’d just be an extension of the Mediterranean.
Just clicked this video cause the map in the thumbnail looked cool.
this is just the world now
what
found him
No.
Make a "what if the Brazillian Empire hadn't become a republic" I would love to see that.
You should do what if the Black Death wiped out the entire old world
Summary: Native americans but europe edition?
2:09 is this NOT happening now?
Moors, barabary and berbers are all the same things. They are amazigh
No, they are the #MoOpS!
@juba gamer the world moor came from the world Mauritania (modern day morocco) and Moroccans were called Moors since the Roman days
What you're thinking about are the moriscos (berbers,Arabs,iberians and goths who became muslims in Andalusia)
I was playing around with the numbers and on average the global population has grown at a little bit under 0.9% since it was about 600 million in 1700. To grow two hundred fold in 300 years is about twice that, ~1.8%. My Scots Irish ancestors were like rabbits and this was easy... once they had a depopulated continent to expand into, of course
Gonna leave a like just for random large Armenia
Armenia Stronk
I was wondering if you'd read The Years of rice and Salt when I clicked this video :) Though I thought you were pretty harsh on it, it's a great read imo. Kim basically went for the world somehow goes on a very similar history time frame model without the Europeans (colonization, tech progress world wars etc.) and you've gone for the world will totally stagnate without the Europeans. Since the laws of the the universe are still the same whether Europeans exist or not, I think many technological strides would eventually be made in this alternate universe given the right conditions and humans being human. Perhaps Kim kept to a similar timeline since he didn't want to write until 2300-2500 AD (a lot more pages in an already long book) which might have been a more realistic time frame for his altered world. Ultimately perhaps the key point of his book was to create a good thought provoking story, and he did a great job imo.
KSR is overrated trash
In a separate video you mentioned that the Mongol invasion of the Middle East may have been the reason Islamic society decided that god was irrational. With all the free real estate of europe, wouldn’t the mongols have just moved in to Europe instead of invadin the Middle East, which could then allow the Muslim world to believe that god was rational?
Do you post the bibliography of your videos somewhere?
Now that I came to think of it, Tunisia is trying to take Sicily for almost three thousand years now. First the Carthaginians, then Various different Islamic realms like the Zirids during the early Middle Ages, and, well, now there is immigration, if you think that counts.
Yeah we will take Sicily no matter what!! Haha just kidding
I have wondered this, if 90% died and only Poles under Casimir or the most isolated communities were the only ones left.
what if there was a mediterranean size ocean in the middle of asia
The Caspian Ocean
The Galilean Ocean
The Ocean of Oman
The Tzungar Ocean
The Qin Ocean
The Primorye Ocean
The Karen Ocean
The Bamar Ocean
The Tibetan Ocean
Ocean of Bharat
The Ocean of Altai
The Tuvan Ocean
The Sakha ocean
The Ocean of Shanghai
The purpur ocean
The silk ocean
the darkest timeline possible
the best
What if Commodus was assassinated before he could spend any of the Roman money?
What if Commodus invented the commode ❓❗😋
Katherine Phaye 🤔
Rant on how the book was inaccuarte but uses a completely false map. There was a kingdom in southern Spain which was "technologically" more developed the iberic kingdoms.
There were 3 kingdoms in north Africa not 2. and don't get me started on the middle east.
How Europe, excluding the muslim regions, during the black death was more advanced as you say? The astrolabe itself was borrowed from muslims.
the library at the University of Paris only had about 2,000 books (McClellan & Dorn, 1999).
Here are some imagines to look at g.co/arts/fCV7bePrmjRbtQ2a8
There is strong genetical evidence that people originating from the middle east, north africa and especially andalusia were present during the middle ages in the americas. I'm not saying muslims because there were many chritians, jews and people from other religions.
They didn't teleport.
There are also evidence that some indeginous indians knew and practiced Islam.
Do you think Europeans colonize the americas mainly due to their technology?
Anyway, so by the social structure to profit from thr discoveries of the americas is the genocide of one race, the enslavement of another is the best way to go. Humanity is only so lucky.
But I guess that the kind of video you get when you use Lemon Juice.
1:55 "I love that I have a fanbase where I have fanbase where"...huh?
"Mongol Russia" extremely blursed
One thought: If Muslims States in Europe were divided an competing against the Ottomans, then maybe there's a chance the Rationalists (Mutazila) sect of Islam made a comeback in regions like Morocco, Al Andalus, or Tunisia, and thus, usher in a new era of progress for the Islamic World. Hell, even some "heretics" might escape to the Americas, much like what happened with the 13 colonies that founded the US. I'm actually writing a book on that, which I may share with you once I finish it.
@AutoDriver4000 they had Mutazila populations at some point, but yes, they were mostly killed (mainly by Sunni Muslims)
@AutoDriver4000 you're wrong. First, Mutazila are not considered as part of Sunni Islam. Second, they were already extinct when the Mongols arrived.
2:34 Hannibal happy
please do What if america accepted the mandate over armenia in 1920?
Please, I am really looking forward for the suez crisis video, when is it coming out?
7:02 uhh i dont know about that
You should do that Black Death what if, it sounded really interesting!
But mr whatifalthist, this is just the world now
Now do an uno reverse with Asia instead.
In 11:50 why golden horde is having a unusal shape?
2:09 Well, how would you prefer we react to such a parallel scenario? Europeans no longer consist the majority in Western European capitals, so don’t trivialise the subsuming of your own people.
Yeah I'm sad for Europe, they have such liberal democracies of human rights for all people. Those human rights and sharia law just can't coexist.
I am interested in what country you are living in were this is the case, as well as any source (other than your ass) from which you pulled this claim
You do seem to over look the possibility that the faction of Islam that supported science over religious conservatism could have found root to survive as their own branch in Europe.
This is one of the only times I’d be rooting for the Turks
Bro why. there is a lot of times there you could root for turks in history
@@ufuker5754
You see m8. I am butthurt.
Still salty about 1453.
@@xjdjaws bro no do not be Mehmet was a chad if a world has one major leader like him it would be different place olso made 69 cannons that weight 18 tons and shot cannonbals 600 kg pull ships on land and olmost all of the european power betray them olso corrapt govenors melt golden relics and turn them into coins to pay mercinerys like fuck europa remeber 4. crusede at least turks did not pretend to be friends
Wait so you say i like turks if i did not exist