"My period" was Pertwee and Baker and I found the JNT change a bit jarring, although the initial feel of it all was still quite familiar. Partially I think because Letts was "holding his hand" and partially because a lot of the scripts, writers and crew were holdovers. Davison grew on me but not the Scooby gang. Being older by this stage (and yes, we did actually used to grow out of things) I became a casual viewer by the end of Davison. But trying to be as objective as possible it was becoming rather self parodic by then. Yes, the BBC had the knives out by that point, but I didn't feel at the time - and still don't - that the cancellation was wrong. It really did seem to have run its course.
The problem I have with the view of JNT as a needed modernizer is that I think Graham Williams' stable of writers like Douglas Adams and David Fisher had already been that. They'd been bringing a new sophistication to the writing and characterization, before JNT discarded near that whole stable in favour of his preferred yes-men (even the fact Terrance Dicks saved their bacon with The Five Doctors didn't seem to convince JNT that old hand writers like him were needed more often). Furthermore, every time he listened to Ian Levine's fanboy suggestions, the show took several steps backwards. Whilst many might credit him with keeping the show on, I'd argue the show would really be better remembered had it actually ended sooner, on a note where it hadn't lost the public's good will yet or sullied its memories. Maybe on The Five Doctors, maybe on Tom's last season. That's probably roughly around where JNT should've left in any case. Incidentally, I believe it was doctor's orders over why Tom left. He was told the workload and his drinking lifestyle were going to kill him if he didn't quit.
I take all of your points on and I think you're right on the writer front, I think Andrew Cartmel would've been that guy had time gone on. He seemed to have respect for the history of the show and JNT, in order to create his bold new era didn't have any of that. As you can tell by the video, I'm a fan of the era but not so much him. I personally feel like Tom's exit was a culmination of a lot of issues, chief among them his health. But it can't be ignored that he didn't seem to get along with JNT
To what I gather with Douglas Adams, it seems he was incredibly busy during his time on Dr Who. When script editor, Douglas was also working on the radio series of Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy as well as writing the first Hitchhiker novel. I can only guess one of the reasons he left other than management change was to finish his novel Restaurant At The End Of The Universe.
@JacktheFilmFanatic-vu1nk There's nothing better than watching Nimon in a large group as long as you're all drunk. Not sure that counts as a "defence", but it's true...
Terence Dicks on JNT" My feeling aren’t at all mixed. There was a decline without a doubt. I think the people working on it, particularly John Nathan-Turner [producer 1980-89], were not fit for purpose, as it were. Colin Baker, for example, never got a chance with that silly costume, which I thought was a great shame. I was sorry but I wasn’t surprised when they took it off."
3:44 - 3:50 Points for pointing out the change of the PPCB, but minus many points for switching from a picture of The Tardis in City of Death to The Tardis in The Visitation as both stories used the same box, albeit the first time was around the time when it was in a bit of a bad way, broken window frames and the light on the roof alterations etc, but the second one was much the same as when the box stood in for a real Police Box for Logopolis, but to be fair, the TARDIS was now resembling a real PPCB as the prop box was the new TYJ which was introduced for The Leisure Hive and was paired with a 'twin' around the time of TOATL and both would be useful, sort of taking it in turns up until Survival.
That's right! Obviously Barry hadn't been involved in the show for a few years by that time, so maybe he wasn't a fan of the direction post '75? That's only conjecture though
@@TheatypicalLife According to Chris, Barry wasn’t a fan of where it had gone and he thought it was getting too ridiculous and needed to be more grounded and scientifically too. Chris and JNT got a lot of stick for it, yet it came from Barry, and Chris agreed with him. Not surprising really when you consider Barry’s era of Who with Terrance who also was a keen New Scientist reader and didn’t think Doctor Who should be magical and silly.
Oh please...give me Horns of Nimon any day to the trash that came in JNT era like Leisure Hive, Meglos, Time Flight, Castrovalva, Warriors of the Deep, Timelash, DragonFire, Delta and Bannerman etc.
I haven’t watched all of this documentary but I’ve seen some other clips, I think he was very compassionate about doctor who and he was trying to fight for it to keep it alive, but he wanted to leave it as well as he wanted to do something else which was fair enough but he was not the right person to be at the helm for it really as he was probably more suited to different types of drama genres, and obviously a lot of writing & mistakes had been under his helm which was a shame, but there was tough circumstances at the time that the show and him were facing, I still fully believe from even watching the seventh doctor & the cartmel master plan being put in place they were going on a good formula, when they focused on the characterisation of ace & the doctor being more elusive, darker and more secretive this was a good direction and the stories felt better my favourite was the Fenric story which was brilliant, happiness patrol, remembrance of the daleks and survival
The second half of JNT's tenure is when Dr. Who started exhibiting signs of becoming a caricature of itself. Also, giving the Doctor a fixed costume rather than a look didn't help. Even Tom got plagued with the cheesy question marks in his final season. And Colin never stood a chance with his infamous costume, although I always felt that he would have been a brilliant doctor with 'normal' attire and better stories like Tom had.
The show was a caricature by season 17, JNT saved it, but then it became a caricature later on. Seasons 22, 25 and 26 have since been reevaluated and more positively since...
An interesting analysis, however, I'm not sure the evidence supports the argument that Colin Baker's first season drove viewers away (in terms of ratings and audience appreciation figures, it was higher on average than the final two Davison ones) or that the Trial improved things (ratings basically halved and would never pick up again).
I think you're right, on reflection! Perhaps people were watching that first season out of curiosity. We know that crucially it didn't do well (unfortunately, because I love Colin's first season!!) I think the myth that the entirety of the JNT Era was poorly received needs to be put to bed^
I don't think JNT ever really understood the programme. Casting Peter Davison only worked at all because he's a very good actor - he was neither old enough nor eccentric enough for the programme at that time. Colin Baker's casting would have worked if JNT hadn't undermined him with, as you say, an appalling costume and dubious characterisation. JNT changed things for the sake of change, getting rid of good writers in favour of poorer ones and frequently rearranging the theme music with increasingly unimpressive results. I feel that both Sylvester McCoy and Bonnie Langford were completely miscast, and putting them together suggested JNT thought of Doctor Who as just like light entertainment. I think Saward and Bidmead were both OK but don't rate Cartmel at all and he totally failed to restore the programme's lost charm, making its very long hiatus inevitable.
To be fair, though, JNT promised Bonnie Langford one characterization as Mel but she was eventually reduced to the role of a 1960’s “scream queen.” That characterization may have been OK with Victoria and Zoe in the 60s, but not in the late 80’s. Mel was supposed to have been a competent computer programmer from Pease Pottage. At least RTD has made Mel a competent, likable character in the recent episodes and not reduced her to scream queen status.
John Nathan-Turner is like the Michael Eisner of Doctor Who. Did a lot of good in the beginning until he was given all the power and ended up nearly killing the franchise.
I think that's an unfair comparison. Eisner certainly relished the power whereas it's fairly clear that JNT felt obliged to remain in post when he'd dearly have loved someone else to come along and take it off him.
JNT and RTD - wanting near complete control of their show. Big egos, being pandered too. Interesting to watch this is 2024 when parallels about control and the show reflecting the chief at helm seems to be a problem back in play.
At the time it went: Great, the tension is back (Tom Baker's last series), hang on, he's cast who? (Peter Davison was really an odd choice after the first four had been so offbeat), then "he's cast who? take 2" - Colin Baker never looked comfortable in the part but Big Finish has proven he could have done it. Then Bonnie Langford looked like stunt casting although her subsequent career in EastEnders and her return to Doctor Who suggest we were wrong about that. By the time of Sylvester McCoy JNT wanted out but the BBC was holding him in place as they wanted all producers to be freelance and he was sticking to his guns and staying "staff". There were some interesting ideas and Sylvester should have been an inspired choice but initially they were told it would be back on Saturday tea time so they wrote for kids, then it was switched back to Monday mid-evening and looked childish... So basically great while he had enthusiasm but he lost that without the chance to move on, and the BBC started playing mental chess with him and the series ended up as one of the pawns. Shows like "The Curse of Fenric" and "Ghost Light" show that he kept it watchable right until the end in spite of it all and I respect him for that.
I grew up with Sylvester McCoy as the Doctor. But something always did annoy about Bonnie Langford as Mel. I hadn't really watched Colin Baker early stories as the Doctor until more recently. I get they tried to make him a more darker character. But it just didn't work to start with. That out fit didn't help either. Never really had much against Peter Davison. In terns of companions Nyssa just never seemed to have much to do and I don't think they knew what to do with Adric. It was better I think woth Tegan and Turlough. On the whole the 80s were very much a mixed bag and that's at least in part due to JNT. But things perhaps outside his control also contributed like budget cuts, Dr Who not being liked by certain senior members of BBC and scheduling (at least some of 7th Doctor was put against a certain popular soap on the other side at 7.30). So like the show JNT influence probably a mixture of good and bad. But surely not as bad as some of the recent offerings
Any honest critique of Dr. Who in the mid-seventies through the 80's must include an honest critique of "Blake's 7." The two series influenced each other and Turner actively promoted Blake while he was on the American convention tour of 1980. In many ways, Davison's idealistic curmudgeon mirrored Blake's socially astute ship's captain. Paul Darrow's quipping, skeptical Avon reflects some of the behaviors/dialogue of the latter half of Tom Baker's doctor and was gruesomely reflected in the sixth doctor. Though Blake's 7 never reproduced the "googly-eyed space monster" themes that Turner maintained, the socially-aware aspects of Doctor who found expression in Blake's band of idealistic explorers with "Zed" the ship's computer, mimicking the temperamental aspects of the TARDIS itself. This is a unique feature of Nathan-Turner's work.
What a brilliant Analysis! Blake's 7 is fantastic, and the very notion that one of Doctor Who's biggest contributors had such a big say in it is clear to me when watching. Maybe I need to make a Blake's 7/Doctor Who video eh👀
Too many Master stories - 10 over 9 seasons and some of those were shorter stories or had the Master taking a back seat or sharing the spotlight - King’s Demons, The Five Doctors, Mark of the Rani, The Ultimate Foe - whereas Delgado appeared in 8 stories over 3 seasons.
Holmes outline for the special is surprisingly bad if the Wikipedia entry is correct, and the idea of cyber time lords... Didn't Tom regret not doing The Five Doctors? Didn’t Davison make up his mind due to the quality of season 20's scripts but mulled changing his mind dur to how well season 21 was shaping up?
All correct! I have no idea what Robert Holmes was thinking with that outline. Maybe a sarcastic response to JNT's shopping list?😅 and I've never heard an exact comment but simply judging by the episode quality I wouldn't be surprised if he had second thoughts during the filming of season 21. It finally seemed like the 5th Doctor had direction. One of the big what ifs for me is what would've happened had he stayed on. Would the decline in ratings have continued? Likely to be the case but still interesting to think about (Josh, Atypical Life)
The original idea of the 5 Doctors was for Peter and Tom to be the main focus. Sarah Janes was suppose to be with Tom, the Brigadier with Pewtree, Jamie with Troughton.
His period is quite mixed. I will say he was excellent promoter and showman. I think he probably needed someone like Barry Letts above him as executive producer(not just for Tom Baker's last season) to guide him some what. I also do accept that he wasn't that good at story development and did need a decent script editor like Eric Saward(although they fell out) and later on Andrew Cartmel. The stunt casting sometimes worked(Nicholas Parsons in "Curse of Fenric"), but sometimes didn't(Hale and Pace in "Survival").
I think the main issue is he kept hiring newbies and offering nil support. Eric Saward is arguably a good write but poor script editor - the show really went downhill with those two, and then when Andrew Cartmell joined (and JNT took a step back) there was an improvement. JNT did a lot to promote the series, but it was all about him being in total control even if other knew more than he did. I can liken it best F1 - Tyrell F1 team were completely taken over by BAR. First thing BAR did was get rid of everyone who had been involved with the team before. Result? Zero points. Eventually things went well (they became the Mercedes team), but it took the original owners leaving for it to work. So overall JNT did revive the show at the start of the 80s, then went on to help kill the show, then helped bring it back before the BBC just axed it. If you keep hiring new people and with no support and focus more on "variety" and "conventions", the show will suffer.
Very good in the beginning, fell off the wagon train when Colin Baker took over and really went to shit with Sylvester McCoy(the latter too, most of their serials are totally unwatchable. I don’t know how I tolerated them the first go round! I was a preteen-teenager). Casting horrible actors in main roles (Matthew Waterhouse as Adric, boobs as Peri, etc) didn’t help. Back then I was mortified when they cancelled the whole program. Looking back as an adult now, it was a mercy they did the show. Good: final Tom Baker year, Davison years, Anthony Ainley as the Master.
Never understood the JNT bashing. Things were a little uneven in Tom's last season and the early part of Davidson's reign, but after that, countless classics were made.
JNT - Initially good. Gave the show a fresh look. Eventually BAD. Overstayed his welcome by several years. Made lots of bad decisions. Show gets cancelled twice during his time.
@@ShamrockParticle If Richard Marson's retelling is correct it was a joke about NB having sex with an acquaintance of JNT's. JNT *took* it as an offensive response to a question by his partner Gary but that absolutely wasn't what NB intended. It's detailed in Marson's biography of JNT.
@@TheatypicalLife He was something of a bully by various accounts. Nicola Bryant didn't want to do the Doctor Who panto and was later excluded from the Jim'll Fix It episode with Colin (JNT told her that he used Tegan instead "because Janet doesn't say 'no'"). In terms of the wider argument, JNT was a really creative line producer (he was the one who came up with a way to allow Tom and Lalla to shoot City of Death in Paris without breaking the budget), but he wasn't creative in the sense that he should have had input into the actual stories. JNT tried to do his best for the show, but he needed an EP or equivalent with the stature of a Robert Holmes or Terrence Dicks, and it's hard to argue JNT had an eye for writing talent. I'll always love 80s Who, but it rarely reached the quality that Dicks, Holmes and Hulke turned out on the regular in the 60s and 70s (I know Holmes wrote for the show in the 80s, but Androzani apart he seems to have been past his best).
I think JNT isn't completely to blame for 80s whos faults. He did overreach and hired poorly experienced writers and directors. But, he also had to contend with a hostile BBC and a hostile fanbase.
JNT's biggest mistake was getting rid of Tom Baker who was the last of the great Doctors. The others who followed paled in comparison to him. I would have traded all the eighties seasons for one more season with Tom Baker. I loved all the stories for 18th season.
The version of 4 that we get in season is my personal favourite! I only wonder, if we could get Tom motivated and to stay on, some of those stories could've been even better. Though wonder how his Doctor would've handled the three companion thing going forward.
To me, as I say in the video. The shift in tone and sensibility in season 18 onwards was absolutely needed. I think there were missteps, but overall we got more thoughtful, character driven elements of the show
@@TheatypicalLife the way tom tells it that he wasn’t the one to want him to leave. He used to pull a song and dance every season about how he should leave and everyone fell about him saying no you can’t! This time he did the same and was met with “actually Tom, we’ve been talking and…”
@@controloz3310 The quality of the Doctor's character took a massive leap down with a dullard in Peter Davison compared to the enigmatically charismatic Tom Baker. Smart move, JNT.
"My period" was Pertwee and Baker and I found the JNT change a bit jarring, although the initial feel of it all was still quite familiar. Partially I think because Letts was "holding his hand" and partially because a lot of the scripts, writers and crew were holdovers. Davison grew on me but not the Scooby gang. Being older by this stage (and yes, we did actually used to grow out of things) I became a casual viewer by the end of Davison. But trying to be as objective as possible it was becoming rather self parodic by then. Yes, the BBC had the knives out by that point, but I didn't feel at the time - and still don't - that the cancellation was wrong. It really did seem to have run its course.
The problem I have with the view of JNT as a needed modernizer is that I think Graham Williams' stable of writers like Douglas Adams and David Fisher had already been that. They'd been bringing a new sophistication to the writing and characterization, before JNT discarded near that whole stable in favour of his preferred yes-men (even the fact Terrance Dicks saved their bacon with The Five Doctors didn't seem to convince JNT that old hand writers like him were needed more often). Furthermore, every time he listened to Ian Levine's fanboy suggestions, the show took several steps backwards.
Whilst many might credit him with keeping the show on, I'd argue the show would really be better remembered had it actually ended sooner, on a note where it hadn't lost the public's good will yet or sullied its memories. Maybe on The Five Doctors, maybe on Tom's last season. That's probably roughly around where JNT should've left in any case.
Incidentally, I believe it was doctor's orders over why Tom left. He was told the workload and his drinking lifestyle were going to kill him if he didn't quit.
I take all of your points on and I think you're right on the writer front, I think Andrew Cartmel would've been that guy had time gone on. He seemed to have respect for the history of the show and JNT, in order to create his bold new era didn't have any of that. As you can tell by the video, I'm a fan of the era but not so much him.
I personally feel like Tom's exit was a culmination of a lot of issues, chief among them his health. But it can't be ignored that he didn't seem to get along with JNT
To what I gather with Douglas Adams, it seems he was incredibly busy during his time on Dr Who. When script editor, Douglas was also working on the radio series of Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy as well as writing the first Hitchhiker novel. I can only guess one of the reasons he left other than management change was to finish his novel Restaurant At The End Of The Universe.
@@moodydude6790 Williams did well when he was there and kept the Baker era ticking on, I definitely have great respect for him!
Season 17 felt like it was being contemptuous of the show, complete with lazy writing. Complete with the laziest Dalek story of the Classic era.
@JacktheFilmFanatic-vu1nk There's nothing better than watching Nimon in a large group as long as you're all drunk. Not sure that counts as a "defence", but it's true...
Terence Dicks on JNT" My feeling aren’t at all mixed. There was a decline without a doubt. I think the people working on it, particularly John Nathan-Turner [producer 1980-89], were not fit for purpose, as it were. Colin Baker, for example, never got a chance with that silly costume, which I thought was a great shame. I was sorry but I wasn’t surprised when they took it off."
3:44 - 3:50 Points for pointing out the change of the PPCB, but minus many points for switching from a picture of The Tardis in City of Death to The Tardis in The Visitation as both stories used the same box, albeit the first time was around the time when it was in a bit of a bad way, broken window frames and the light on the roof alterations etc, but the second one was much the same as when the box stood in for a real Police Box for Logopolis, but to be fair, the TARDIS was now resembling a real PPCB as the prop box was the new TYJ which was introduced for The Leisure Hive and was paired with a 'twin' around the time of TOATL and both would be useful, sort of taking it in turns up until Survival.
I was so close 😭 duly noted!
A lot of the changes in season 18 were actually agreed and down to Barry Letts who agreed with Bidmead’s take on the show.
That's right! Obviously Barry hadn't been involved in the show for a few years by that time, so maybe he wasn't a fan of the direction post '75? That's only conjecture though
@@TheatypicalLife According to Chris, Barry wasn’t a fan of where it had gone and he thought it was getting too ridiculous and needed to be more grounded and scientifically too. Chris and JNT got a lot of stick for it, yet it came from Barry, and Chris agreed with him. Not surprising really when you consider Barry’s era of Who with Terrance who also was a keen New Scientist reader and didn’t think Doctor Who should be magical and silly.
Oh please...give me Horns of Nimon any day to the trash that came in JNT era like Leisure Hive, Meglos, Time Flight, Castrovalva, Warriors of the Deep, Timelash, DragonFire, Delta and Bannerman etc.
Compared to RTD, JNT was Cecil B. De Mille!
I haven’t watched all of this documentary but I’ve seen some other clips, I think he was very compassionate about doctor who and he was trying to fight for it to keep it alive, but he wanted to leave it as well as he wanted to do something else which was fair enough but he was not the right person to be at the helm for it really as he was probably more suited to different types of drama genres, and obviously a lot of writing & mistakes had been under his helm which was a shame, but there was tough circumstances at the time that the show and him were facing, I still fully believe from even watching the seventh doctor & the cartmel master plan being put in place they were going on a good formula, when they focused on the characterisation of ace & the doctor being more elusive, darker and more secretive this was a good direction and the stories felt better my favourite was the Fenric story which was brilliant, happiness patrol, remembrance of the daleks and survival
The second half of JNT's tenure is when Dr. Who started exhibiting signs of becoming a caricature of itself. Also, giving the Doctor a fixed costume rather than a look didn't help. Even Tom got plagued with the cheesy question marks in his final season. And Colin never stood a chance with his infamous costume, although I always felt that he would have been a brilliant doctor with 'normal' attire and better stories like Tom had.
The show was a caricature by season 17, JNT saved it, but then it became a caricature later on.
Seasons 22, 25 and 26 have since been reevaluated and more positively since...
An interesting analysis, however, I'm not sure the evidence supports the argument that Colin Baker's first season drove viewers away (in terms of ratings and audience appreciation figures, it was higher on average than the final two Davison ones) or that the Trial improved things (ratings basically halved and would never pick up again).
I think you're right, on reflection! Perhaps people were watching that first season out of curiosity. We know that crucially it didn't do well (unfortunately, because I love Colin's first season!!) I think the myth that the entirety of the JNT Era was poorly received needs to be put to bed^
JNT was arguably ahead of his time in terms of how he directly engaged with fans and served in a role similar to NuWho showrunners
Prefer JNT’s Doctor Who to RTD’s version by a long way.
I don't think JNT ever really understood the programme. Casting Peter Davison only worked at all because he's a very good actor - he was neither old enough nor eccentric enough for the programme at that time. Colin Baker's casting would have worked if JNT hadn't undermined him with, as you say, an appalling costume and dubious characterisation. JNT changed things for the sake of change, getting rid of good writers in favour of poorer ones and frequently rearranging the theme music with increasingly unimpressive results. I feel that both Sylvester McCoy and Bonnie Langford were completely miscast, and putting them together suggested JNT thought of Doctor Who as just like light entertainment. I think Saward and Bidmead were both OK but don't rate Cartmel at all and he totally failed to restore the programme's lost charm, making its very long hiatus inevitable.
To be fair, though, JNT promised Bonnie Langford one characterization as Mel but she was eventually reduced to the role of a 1960’s “scream queen.” That characterization may have been OK with Victoria and Zoe in the 60s, but not in the late 80’s. Mel was supposed to have been a competent computer programmer from Pease Pottage.
At least RTD has made Mel a competent, likable character in the recent episodes and not reduced her to scream queen status.
John Nathan-Turner is like the Michael Eisner of Doctor Who. Did a lot of good in the beginning until he was given all the power and ended up nearly killing the franchise.
I think that's an unfair comparison. Eisner certainly relished the power whereas it's fairly clear that JNT felt obliged to remain in post when he'd dearly have loved someone else to come along and take it off him.
I see him more as the Tetsuya Nomura of Doctor Who.
JNT and RTD - wanting near complete control of their show. Big egos, being pandered too. Interesting to watch this is 2024 when parallels about control and the show reflecting the chief at helm seems to be a problem back in play.
At the time it went: Great, the tension is back (Tom Baker's last series), hang on, he's cast who? (Peter Davison was really an odd choice after the first four had been so offbeat), then "he's cast who? take 2" - Colin Baker never looked comfortable in the part but Big Finish has proven he could have done it. Then Bonnie Langford looked like stunt casting although her subsequent career in EastEnders and her return to Doctor Who suggest we were wrong about that. By the time of Sylvester McCoy JNT wanted out but the BBC was holding him in place as they wanted all producers to be freelance and he was sticking to his guns and staying "staff". There were some interesting ideas and Sylvester should have been an inspired choice but initially they were told it would be back on Saturday tea time so they wrote for kids, then it was switched back to Monday mid-evening and looked childish...
So basically great while he had enthusiasm but he lost that without the chance to move on, and the BBC started playing mental chess with him and the series ended up as one of the pawns. Shows like "The Curse of Fenric" and "Ghost Light" show that he kept it watchable right until the end in spite of it all and I respect him for that.
I grew up with Sylvester McCoy as the Doctor. But something always did annoy about Bonnie Langford as Mel. I hadn't really watched Colin Baker early stories as the Doctor until more recently. I get they tried to make him a more darker character. But it just didn't work to start with. That out fit didn't help either. Never really had much against Peter Davison. In terns of companions Nyssa just never seemed to have much to do and I don't think they knew what to do with Adric. It was better I think woth Tegan and Turlough.
On the whole the 80s were very much a mixed bag and that's at least in part due to JNT.
But things perhaps outside his control also contributed like budget cuts, Dr Who not being liked by certain senior members of BBC and scheduling (at least some of 7th Doctor was put against a certain popular soap on the other side at 7.30).
So like the show JNT influence probably a mixture of good and bad. But surely not as bad as some of the recent offerings
I really think I need to get my hands on the JNT book
Any honest critique of Dr. Who in the mid-seventies through the 80's must include an honest critique of "Blake's 7." The two series influenced each other and Turner actively promoted Blake while he was on the American convention tour of 1980. In many ways, Davison's idealistic curmudgeon mirrored Blake's socially astute ship's captain. Paul Darrow's quipping, skeptical Avon reflects some of the behaviors/dialogue of the latter half of Tom Baker's doctor and was gruesomely reflected in the sixth doctor. Though Blake's 7 never reproduced the "googly-eyed space monster" themes that Turner maintained, the socially-aware aspects of Doctor who found expression in Blake's band of idealistic explorers with "Zed" the ship's computer, mimicking the temperamental aspects of the TARDIS itself. This is a unique feature of Nathan-Turner's work.
What a brilliant Analysis! Blake's 7 is fantastic, and the very notion that one of Doctor Who's biggest contributors had such a big say in it is clear to me when watching. Maybe I need to make a Blake's 7/Doctor Who video eh👀
Bad, he forced Tom and Lalla out.
Bad companions, too many Master stories
But JNT is not as bad as Chibnal and Moffatt
Too many Master stories - 10 over 9 seasons and some of those were shorter stories or had the Master taking a back seat or sharing the spotlight - King’s Demons, The Five Doctors, Mark of the Rani, The Ultimate Foe - whereas Delgado appeared in 8 stories over 3 seasons.
Holmes outline for the special is surprisingly bad if the Wikipedia entry is correct, and the idea of cyber time lords...
Didn't Tom regret not doing The Five Doctors?
Didn’t Davison make up his mind due to the quality of season 20's scripts but mulled changing his mind dur to how well season 21 was shaping up?
All correct! I have no idea what Robert Holmes was thinking with that outline. Maybe a sarcastic response to JNT's shopping list?😅 and I've never heard an exact comment but simply judging by the episode quality I wouldn't be surprised if he had second thoughts during the filming of season 21. It finally seemed like the 5th Doctor had direction. One of the big what ifs for me is what would've happened had he stayed on. Would the decline in ratings have continued? Likely to be the case but still interesting to think about (Josh, Atypical Life)
@@TheatypicalLifeand we still ended up with Cyber Time Lords anyway under Chibnall with Jodie’s Doctor.
The original idea of the 5 Doctors was for Peter and Tom to be the main focus. Sarah Janes was suppose to be with Tom, the Brigadier with Pewtree, Jamie with Troughton.
His period is quite mixed. I will say he was excellent promoter and showman. I think he probably needed someone like Barry Letts above him as executive producer(not just for Tom Baker's last season) to guide him some what. I also do accept that he wasn't that good at story development and did need a decent script editor like Eric Saward(although they fell out) and later on Andrew Cartmel. The stunt casting sometimes worked(Nicholas Parsons in "Curse of Fenric"), but sometimes didn't(Hale and Pace in "Survival").
You forgot K9 leaving with Lala Ward at the end of Warrior's Gate!
@@MelanieRuck-dq5uo How could I forget? ❤️
Very good and friendly people several Doctor Who and bad lunatics the evil Daleks and evil Cybermen.
I think the main issue is he kept hiring newbies and offering nil support. Eric Saward is arguably a good write but poor script editor - the show really went downhill with those two, and then when Andrew Cartmell joined (and JNT took a step back) there was an improvement. JNT did a lot to promote the series, but it was all about him being in total control even if other knew more than he did. I can liken it best F1 - Tyrell F1 team were completely taken over by BAR. First thing BAR did was get rid of everyone who had been involved with the team before. Result? Zero points. Eventually things went well (they became the Mercedes team), but it took the original owners leaving for it to work. So overall JNT did revive the show at the start of the 80s, then went on to help kill the show, then helped bring it back before the BBC just axed it. If you keep hiring new people and with no support and focus more on "variety" and "conventions", the show will suffer.
05:08 "Christopher HAITCH Bidmead".
H = "Aitch", dear boy...there is no such letter as"Haitch". 😁
I was probably very tired recording this, well spotted though! I will do better in the future 😅
Very good in the beginning, fell off the wagon train when Colin Baker took over and really went to shit with Sylvester McCoy(the latter too, most of their serials are totally unwatchable. I don’t know how I tolerated them the first go round! I was a preteen-teenager). Casting horrible actors in main roles (Matthew Waterhouse as Adric, boobs as Peri, etc) didn’t help. Back then I was mortified when they cancelled the whole program. Looking back as an adult now, it was a mercy they did the show. Good: final Tom Baker year, Davison years, Anthony Ainley as the Master.
Season 25 and 26 - yeah, really went to shit. 😂
Never understood the JNT bashing. Things were a little uneven in Tom's last season and the early part of Davidson's reign, but after that, countless classics were made.
JNT - Initially good. Gave the show a fresh look. Eventually BAD. Overstayed his welcome by several years. Made lots of bad decisions. Show gets cancelled twice during his time.
Well he’s isn’t good since what Nicola said about him in conversation in the collection s22
I have heard about this, can I ask exactly what she said? :o
Apparently, she made a homophobic comment to him and he literally spat on her as a result.
I saw she was bullied by him? Is it true@@ShamrockParticle
@@ShamrockParticle If Richard Marson's retelling is correct it was a joke about NB having sex with an acquaintance of JNT's. JNT *took* it as an offensive response to a question by his partner Gary but that absolutely wasn't what NB intended. It's detailed in Marson's biography of JNT.
@@TheatypicalLife He was something of a bully by various accounts. Nicola Bryant didn't want to do the Doctor Who panto and was later excluded from the Jim'll Fix It episode with Colin (JNT told her that he used Tegan instead "because Janet doesn't say 'no'").
In terms of the wider argument, JNT was a really creative line producer (he was the one who came up with a way to allow Tom and Lalla to shoot City of Death in Paris without breaking the budget), but he wasn't creative in the sense that he should have had input into the actual stories. JNT tried to do his best for the show, but he needed an EP or equivalent with the stature of a Robert Holmes or Terrence Dicks, and it's hard to argue JNT had an eye for writing talent. I'll always love 80s Who, but it rarely reached the quality that Dicks, Holmes and Hulke turned out on the regular in the 60s and 70s (I know Holmes wrote for the show in the 80s, but Androzani apart he seems to have been past his best).
He was a curate's egg. Good and bad.
I was never a fan of Nathan-Turner. The more I learn about him the more I dislike him.
Barry Letts was a former Producer not Script Editor.
@@robalexander8065 well spotted!
I think JNT isn't completely to blame for 80s whos faults. He did overreach and hired poorly experienced writers and directors. But, he also had to contend with a hostile BBC and a hostile fanbase.
JNT's biggest mistake was getting rid of Tom Baker who was the last of the great Doctors. The others who followed paled in comparison to him. I would have traded all the eighties seasons for one more season with Tom Baker. I loved all the stories for 18th season.
Logopolis is possibly the best story ever produced. Yet it was only the exit of Tom that made it so.
The version of 4 that we get in season is my personal favourite! I only wonder, if we could get Tom motivated and to stay on, some of those stories could've been even better. Though wonder how his Doctor would've handled the three companion thing going forward.
To me, as I say in the video. The shift in tone and sensibility in season 18 onwards was absolutely needed. I think there were missteps, but overall we got more thoughtful, character driven elements of the show
@@TheatypicalLife the way tom tells it that he wasn’t the one to want him to leave. He used to pull a song and dance every season about how he should leave and everyone fell about him saying no you can’t! This time he did the same and was met with “actually Tom, we’ve been talking and…”
@@controloz3310 The quality of the Doctor's character took a massive leap down with a dullard in Peter Davison compared to the enigmatically charismatic Tom Baker. Smart move, JNT.