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Arm Bend in the Snatch & Clean: It May Not Be an Error
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- Опубліковано 25 жов 2016
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Early arm bend prior the completion of the extension in the snatch and clean may be an error needing correction for optimal lift technique, but it may not. Learn what the difference is and why it matters.
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Sir.. I was a professional weightlifter some 35 years back.. there was no computer, no mobile during our days.. so I cud never rectify my mistake and my coach too was technically not sound... But today we have everything... I have watched several videos trying to solve the issue... I think you are the best, infact u are ultimate. I salute you.sir.. keep it up...great..
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yeh, I've been lifting for years. Never had a coach. And this just answered a key question i had about internal rotation and arm lock i've never been able to get a straight answer on
The last two points, NOT locking but still rotating, is huge for me. I was under the impression it was a both thing but my best pull-unders are when I cue with "arms like ropes" so hearing this "not locked, but elbows pointed out" is great.
I am reading and reading and reading your book over and over. This video is so helpful. Thanks Greg for drop such knowledge bombs.
I don't know why ppl say the snatch is so technical. I find the snatch easier than the clean & this video proves it!
"and then another camp that says if you bend your arms too early, you're going to die" LOOOL!!
Just when you start to think "jeez, greg has kind of a boring, monotone voice when he explains these things" he sprinkles in some wit and dry humor hahhaha nice.
He’s very wise
Great advice, especially the internal rotation of the arms, that's a game-changer!
My case was the second. I would early arm bend to clear the legs, whereas I should have been more patient in initiating that second pull!
what you said around 06:50 i think it's due to the fact a lot of instructors, mainly crossfit ones, tend to empathize the "shrug" of the shoulders, where, according to famous Russian lifters, there is none actually (shoulder shrug). Beautiful video tho, thanks.
This is a great video. I thought the part about the early arm bend being a symptom of poor weight distribution was really insightful.
I love the new logo!! Also, very informative video!
5:53 wow video is 6 years old and this seems to be a good answer for me, i have longer arms so if i have the grip, so that the bar is right in my hip crease it feels like my grip is way too wide and makes it hard/very uncomfortable to hold the bar overhead.
All this said, I will submit it is preferable to not bend your arms prior to commencement of the 3rd pull if at all possible (i.e. explosion off the thighs). "Popping" the bar with bent arms is in effect a pre-shrug, and limits the effectiveness of the final shrug during the 4th or final pull under the bar. Try shrugging a weight with your arms bent; then try it with your arms straight. You will apply greater force, and hence apply more speed to the bar during the final extension under the lift with the latter approach.
This is GREAT content! It greatly complement the articles!!! thanks a lot that helped!
Dude....you are awesome and ez to understand!! Great work
There was a great lifter in southern California in the late 1960's whose mantra was "your arms are nothing but ropes". Meaning that your arms are not helping you to lift the bar at all.
First of all, many thanks for your very quick response on other videos.
My question after watching the video:
Assuming we’re talking about people with normal body proportions, why some elite weightlifters at full extension, and in some cases even after it, still have straight arms, while others even before the extension, already at power position, have slightly bent arms? (I’m not talking about lifters who intentionally bend their arms, but about lifters who obviously have the “classic” regular technique)
For example, yesterday I watched a video of Muhammad Ehab in Germany. Two German lifter: Max Lang- has a slight arm bend. Nico Muller has straight arms even after the bar leaves his hips making his turnover looking “like in the books”. Are they doing something mechanically different? And why for example would it not be recommended to figure the reason for Lang’s slightly bent arms and fix it? Because obviously, there is a mechanic reason for that, because nothing just happens. Thank you very much.
Usually it can be attributed to how they learned, i.e. some may have developed the habit as kids and never corrected because it wasn't causing a problem. But also, even with apparently normal proportions, variations in grip width and timing etc. will affect where the bar contacts, and bending is usually an unconscious reaction to that.
VERY informative and helpful!
Another amazing video! Really great job!
Hi Greg, super informative video - thanks for sharing your knowledge! I am the freak you mention around 4:30 with “odd proportions”-my hands touch the ends of the barbell and the middle of the bar still doesn’t sit at my hip crease. Instead the bar sits on my upper thigh.. I’m 6’2” with a wingspan 2+ inches longer than that.. Currently, I brush the barbell against my mid-thigh to snatch, but I know I could be getting much more power if I was pushing from my hips. Any suggestions/tricks on how to get it closer to my hip crease? Thanks in advance!
Yes, try the shrug described in the video, but also accept the very real possibility you're not going to have a perfect snatch, and just work on performing as well as you can with what you have to work with - you'll make a lot more progress that way than trying to find tricks to mitigate the problem because there's really very little you can do - but you can still snatch really well if you just keep chipping away at it.
Very helpful. Thank you for posting.
If I don't bend my arms a little in the clean, I cannot get the bar to my hip crease, but risk smashing my vitals. My arms are not especially long for my body, either. (In the snatch, by going collar to collar, I am fine.) Am I a candidate for a little arm bend in the clean -- or should I be gripping the bar farther apart in the clean? Is there a good test for this?
Yes. Some arm bend is always preferable to smashed gonards. Re grip, you have to find the balance between the pull, turnover and rack position, i..e. you can't compromise any one of those too much to improve another. Do make sure you're staying over the bar long enough also. See the following -
ua-cam.com/video/k9XcAZujgKk/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/rJ6dZgUQzcs/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/G8IDYxaBuec/v-deo.html
This helped me very much! Thanks!!!
Thanks for the information from this vedio! I used to extend my arms too hardly and the bar didn't go straight .
After watching this I slightly (naturally) bending my arms and the bar goes so fucking straight!
great vid. Thanks for putting this together.
"you don't need to get your protractor out.." haahahahhahh!
Hello, brother. Thanks for the great video.
I have long limbs, the ideal grip position that makes the barbell hit the perfect point on my hips is too wide, so I have difficulty holding the bar above my head. I get wrist pain.
So I had to move my grip closer together to avoid the pain and have more stability when I'm under the bar.
BUT, with this grip position I have to add the early arm bed so I don't hit my hip bone. That's ok up to a point. But when that bar starts getting heavy, bending the arm gets too difficult, and the whole movement becomes a war.
I tried pulling the bar from my traps, like shrugging... But I couldn't make it work like that yet.
What would you suggest?
Thank you again SO much for the amazing video.
To some extent, you're screwed... there unfortunately are effects of proportions that can't be eliminated. The early shrug is one way, and also really making sure you're staying over the bar long enough before opening the hips.
I would also make sure the way you're holding the bar overhead itself isn't a problem that's making the position worse than it needs to be, and work on wrist mobility & strength to see if you can keep a wider grip even if not as wide as ideal.
Hand/wrist overhead -
ua-cam.com/video/JPT-t-p2L-c/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/tB38Y0jMCjs/v-deo.html
Wrist strength/mobility -
ua-cam.com/video/Wvv60R691ks/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/6mLxoraF1jY/v-deo.html
@@CatalystAthletics Wow! I couldn't be more surprised with your response.
Thank you so much for taking the time to really help me.
I'll try all of those things!
Mr. Everett, I hope you have an amazing week. Thank you once again!
Hi Greg,
Thank you so much for the content you put out. I have question about the intricacies about of the "shrug". During the second pull, do you initiate the shrug while simultaneously accelerating the bar (driving down with legs) or is it more of a shrugging first then accelerating the bar after? Basically, I'm asking if you do A+B simultaneously or 'A' goes first then 'B 'afterwards. I hope that makes sense lol.
I'm 5'7 with a short torso and long legs. My arms are relatively short compared to most athletes. But, are still long for my proportions (the bar ends up under my crotch). I have experimented with wider grips to achieve a higher contact point in the clean. But, I still somewhat bend my arms to get the bar into my hip area. I guess, i'm wanting to know if this is an option I can utilize to achieve a more straighter arm and higher contact point. Otherwise, I guess i just have to accept it lool
Cheers!
It's C - more part of the transition from the body lifting the bar up and the arms moving the body down, and it's more just a natural part of the arm motion than an isolated/intention action in and of itself. Here's a video explaining -
ua-cam.com/video/otTTJK_jYn8/v-deo.html
@@CatalystAthletics Thank you Greg!
That was a lot of great information for free!
Thank for the vids as usual man
thank you! great video!
So helpful!
Excellent, thanks!
Can't bent arms that re-straighten lead to 1) the engagement of the second pull with extra speed (kind of like revving an engine and dropping the clutch), which leads to 2) a shorter more powerful second pull and a sort of bounce or whiplash effect that translates into a speedier third pull?
I thought of this watching those slow-mo videos of Kirill Pavlov. Makes me feel like there's a link between the second and third pull's time, as in a longer second pull will lead to a longer third pull as well.
You'd potentially get that extra speed in the body during that moment of slack, but that doesn't necessarily (and likely would not) translate into actual bar speed once the slack is taken up. You can run at a parked car as fast as possible to try to start pushing it, but that running speed doesn't instantly transfer to the car's motion - you just come to a sudden stop and have to restart force generation. Even if it did, the difference you're talking about is probably negligible and not at all worth trying to turn that into an actual technical strategy.
+Catalyst Athletics
I just started intentionally bending because I am hurting my pubic bone. I think my bar path might be shit, but every time I snatch I end up with a bruise on my pubic bone. I was told this is because I bring my hips forward to meet the bar instead of bringing the bar back but it also that the bar is too low and not in the hip crease. How do I fix this?
Wider grip, using the shrug I talk about in the video potentially, but also it may be an issue of timing, i.e. you're initiating the second pull too soon, or allowing too much distance between your legs and the bar prior to contact. See if this article helps - www.catalystathletics.com/article/125/Hips-Meet-Bar-Bar-Body-Contact-in-the-Extension-of-the-Snatc/
Catalyst Athletics I moved my grip out and now I am 5' 10" with a collar-to-collar grip. It works and the bar sits right in my hip but I will have to work more on my lockout because that wide of a position isn't comfortable at the top. I am also going to work on the shrug/lat squeeze you mentioned and see how that goes. Thanks for the help.
If you're that wide overhead, that's probably not going to work - it sounds like you have really long arms and/or a short trunk. I think you'd be better off keeping the previous grip and working on timing, bar proximity and a little shrug - you only need to contact 1" higher - doesn't need to be a dramatic difference. I think you're going to run into more problems due to less overhead stability.
Catalyst Athletics I probably should note that my previous grip was only an inch shy of the collars so it isn't a massive change, it just feels more awkward, probably somewhat because it is new. I am definitely going to try the shrug you were talking about as well, once I can get back to the gym.
Update After one month, I kept my grip the same to slightly narrower, and started adding the little shrug and squeezing my lats through the pull and I am making contact where I should be. I don't have anymore pain and my form seems to have improved significantly based on what some people have told me.
At the 1:50 mark, you mention a hip-dominant vs leg-dominant pull. Can you explain this difference?
I did a bad job explaining that part. More accurately, the more vertically-oriented your extension, the more force will be supported directly by the arms, relative to a more hyperextended hip finish; but also, a more hip-dominant pull will tend to actually impart less vertical force on the bar and create less upward momentum and elevation, which means that something that could disrupt elevation (e.g. the arms re-extending) will have less of an effect on the lift overall.
Isn't the goal to create upward momentum and elevation of the bar through vertical extension? In what situation would a hip-dominant pull be preferred?
You can never have actual vertical extension - a vertically extended, straight body will mean a forward imbalance of the bar-body system. Hip/leg dominance will be dictated by a given lifter's strengths and weakness, which are at least in part dictated by proportion - for example, Asian lifters will tend to be more leg dominant due to shorter legs and longer torsos, while European lifters will lean more toward a balance of legs and hips due to more balanced proportions, etc. A more hip dominant pull doesn't mean you're not creating upward acceleration and elevation, it just means that you will produce somewhat less ultimate height, which certain lifters can manage.
Got it. Thanks!
Catalyst Athletics its really tough for me. I have a very slow pull when lifting bar off the ground and start to explode with my legs around mid shin. Is this okay? The problem I see is that I am not exerting as much force on the bar theoretically. Also, I seem to cut my pulls short and use my athleticism to get under the bar. It works till 225lbs, but after that it's a bail. My front squat max is 305 lbs. What drills can I work on that will maximize my pull with full extension?
Hi Greg,
my coach explicitly suggested I start bending the elbows in the snatch as soon as the first pull finishes.
He said the advantage of this is a better capability of driving the bar closer to the body, to have a point of contact just below my belly button.
As I suffer from bicep long-head tendon inflammation (at the shoulder), I have always tried to keep my arms as straight as possible, trying not to look them out. The cue that my former coach gave me was "think about pushing the bar away from the arm in order to avoid arm bending and to keep the arms relaxed".
Now, after the first day of trying this, my bicep tendon is already hurting. Is this the right way to pull in the snatch?
Thank you very much in advance!
Bar should not contact that high... should be in the crease of the hips. Grip width should be set to achieve that unless that's impossible to due unusual proportions.
I don't see how "pushing the bar away" would allow for relaxed arms since that's actively extending the arms.
See these for more info on the topic -
Snatch grip width - ua-cam.com/video/ICU0v9djhCk/v-deo.html
Bar contact / proximity - ua-cam.com/video/npdlzx3dem4/v-deo.html and ua-cam.com/video/k9XcAZujgKk/v-deo.html
Arms keeping bar close in pull under - ua-cam.com/video/UoCZhN4mdTg/v-deo.html
And this on arm bend generally - www.catalystathletics.com/article/1904/Arm-Bend-in-the-Snatch-Clean-Its-Still-Not-the-Solution-to-/
Greg - “...if you bend your arms early before the finish of the extension, you’re gonna die.”
Millennial weightlifter - “Guess I’ll bend my arms early.”
Millennials are anyone born 1981-1996, Lü, ILya, and Klokov are all millennials. What does being a millennial have to do with anything?
Who THE HECK shrugs the bar up?? Could somebody show me an example with a lifter? I am 5'6" and forced to have a wide grip on snatch in order to not obliterate my pubic bone... and having a narrower grip is MUCH more stable, and comfortable to grip, and I would do anything lift with that normal(narrow) grip width. Any advice would be appreciated.
1:40 nailed it.
When I wear wrist straps the bar is kinda in lower position when I have to hit it so psychologically I miss the lift. When I do hook grip instead, no problems so I use it all the time, however, volume is killing me. I think I could do more work with them. This is weird problem, how can I fix it?
Hold the bar in the same place.... the only way that would happen is if you're gripping the bar in a different position with and without straps... and/or you're holding the bar differently in your hand with straps, e.g. your hand is more open. Should be the same with or without straps.
Watching this video on September 2021. The real question is: does arm bend lead to an invalid snatch/clean? I've seen this "remo-like" movement that helps the bar hit the crest of the hip and create more power.
If by "invalid" you mean illegal in competition, no. If you mean a missed lift, no - as long as it's within the parameters explained here.
@@CatalystAthletics That is what I meant (ilegal in competition). Thanks for your reply, cheers.
great stuff
What is a hip-dominant lifting style mechanically - how could we say "That person is a hip-dominant lifter"? Who would be good examples of hip-dominant lifters - Boyanka? Thanks!
It means they're reliant more on hip extension than leg extension when lifting the bar... Boyanka isn't particularly hip-dominant. Look for lifters who lean/hyperextend extra far bar in the pull, tend to have softer legs in the finish, and often jump slightly backward.
@@CatalystAthletics How about Muattar Nabieva? Chen Guiming jumps back, but she doesn't seem to match the rest of the description. Being able to watch someone who's an example would go a far way for me. And thank you for answering all these questions - it's amazingly helpful.
Or Hou Zhihui?
@@daviddreisigmeyer726 Zhihui is a better example
Im bending my arms naturally i dont feel the bend when i lifting
6:48 90% of everyone
I used Unflexal handbooks for that.
And this is why American weightlifting will never be close to other countries
Looks like that's changing more and more, bud
Well, Jessica Lucero still does that bend shit...
arm bend = bad leverage simple. Arms and hands should be relaxed throughout pull, like throwing a punch. The lifter will not exert maximum force on the bar with tense bent arms. This bringing bar into hip especially on the clean is total BS. length of ams legs dictate where point of contact is. Look at Yurik Vardanyan bar never contacted the hips even in snatch and he is one of the greatest lifters of all time
Actually it has absolutely nothing to do with leverage, but you're correct that in theory, relaxed, long arms will produce the optimal result, which I covered in the video. HOWEVER, I would disagree completely that this necessarily and always trumps the benefit of a more advantageous point of contact with the body (more so in the snatch than in the clean - I didn't say the bar had to contact the hips in the clean, and disagree that it does).
You're wrong too that length of arms exclusively dictates where the bar contacts the body - that is one factor, along with grip width, length of torso, the timing of the second pull, and tension in the upper back.
But UNINTENTIONAL and slight bending of the arms is present in a great many elite weightlifters, so to claim it is definitely and invariably a significant problem is simply inaccurate. Sounds to me like you're misunderstanding my points and conflating my opinions with those who want an intentional and significant bend of the arms to enforce bar contact with the hip even in the clean, which is not at all what I've said.
Regarding Vardanyan, first, a single elite weightlifter isn't proof or disproof of anything - you can find exceptions to literally any, even the most fundamental, rules/concepts of lifting among the best lifters of the world. Vardanyan had extremely peculiar technique in a number of ways, and it clearly was effective for HIM, which in no way proves it would be effective for anyone else (interestingly, when his son Norik moved to Armenia, they changed his pull technique from something that resembled his father's to a more upright posture throughout...).
BUT, take a closer look at Vardanyan the elder on the day he did his legendary 405 total, and you'll see he bends the arms slightly in both lifts. Again, we're talking about a natural and slight bend of the arms, which nearly always occurs in the absence of active elbow extension, as studied and known at least by the Soviets for decades.
Here are some photos for you to see it - www.catalystathletics.com/images/vardanyan/vardanyanSnatch.jpg / www.catalystathletics.com/images/vardanyan/vardanyanClean.jpg
i didnt say arms exclusively. Vardanyan had low contact because of super long femur. And as told by klokov and Riggert arms straight and relaxed but elbows not locked out.
Seems to me you're not entirely sure what you're arguing. All good coaches teach long, relaxed arms BUT that does not preclude the kind of natural, slight bend in the arms this video is discussing, as has been made clear now multiple times. I'm quite confident Vardanyan was not intentionally bending his elbows, and instead was trying to keep them long and relaxed, and yet they flexed to a small degree because this is a very natural movement for the body to perform in an attempt to optimize the movement (including preserving more bar speed during the transition phase of the pull), again, as has been known for decades.
the slight but natural
bend comes from bringing the bar in close after passing the knee
What does that point contribute to your argument?
OMG, quit dropping that bar!
It’s on a platform. And how is there any difference between dropping an empty bar and dropping a bar with weight on it that has solid steel banging against solid steel? 🤦🏽♂️